Learning From Illness and Suffering | Dr. Katharina Westerhorstmann | Franciscan University Presents

what does it mean to be human and can human vulnerability help us to understand our own Humanity more deeply can we learn to live through suffering join us today as we answer those questions and more with Dr Katerina Vester horsman professor of Theology and medical ethics at Franciscan University in Steubenville I'm father Dave pavanka president of Francisco University in Steubenville Ohio and you're watching Franciscan University presents stay with us [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Applause] welcome to Franciscan University presents I'm your host father Dave pavanka president of Francisco University of Steubenville we're talking today about what we can learn from illness and suffering I'm joined by our panelist Dr Regis Martin professor of systematic theology here at Franciscan University and Dr Scott Hahn the father Michael Scanlon professor of biblical theology in the new evangelization here also at Francis University we're very pleased to welcome today's guest Dr Katarina Vester Horseman who is a professor of Theology and medical ethics ethics at Francisco University of Steubenville in our gaming campus it's a great blessing to have you with us there she is taught in written extensively in her areas of expertise which include moral and Systematic Theology virtue ethics and the works of Edith Stein today we'll discuss her paper what it means to be human anthropological and ethical Reflections and navigating vulnerability and fragility of human existence during times of illness welcome it's really wonderful to have you here thank you very much maybe just a basic question um what caused you to write the article first of all I should have chosen a better title I could have done a better job so my idea was just to use what it means to be human as the title but I but I knew of course the readers want to know a little bit what I will be talking about in this article so what made me write the piece it it was very personal to be honest it was my way of dealing with a time after an accident I had and the time of illness several months and with long lasting effects and I I tried to find a way to work academically on this question and also to use it to teach to students I think that's one of the things that you do beautiful we don't go into your all of your academic credentials which are long but you do a beautiful job in this in taking academ not just well academic subjects and topics and actually making it real so what was that process like for you of just being able to take what you know in your intellect and make that relevant to your experience and the experience of the reader and so I I tried to find something people can relate to and usually it's a way I can relate to the topic myself and that helps me to to find a way of explaining sometimes a little dry academic topics and to fill them with a little bit of more life and also to use a language that is not so commonly used for questions like this but sickness and illness and suffering that's everybody's experience correct press not to the same extent okay I mean someone who who gets a cancer diagnosis is in a different situation than someone who has a cold yeah and although we have all the same experience because of a human condition it makes a huge difference whether um sickness becomes a part of my life or just temporarily I'm sick for a few days I'm suffering I think can be understood in various ways but death is sort of a constant it's a universal defining experience nobody gets out alive and if life is a journey at the end of The Journey you're dead but along the way most of us I think will be forced to undergo some pain some suffering at least some massive inconvenience oddly enough I was reading your piece at the airport in Newark New Jersey which is one of the most hellish settings on the planet oh gosh I'm so sorry to hear that but you look as if you've recovered I spent four hours in a line waiting to change a flight and your peace resonated very well with my own travail so I appreciate the contingency that you outlined so well well in your text no you introduced something that I think ought to be emphasized from the beginning and that is illness is the suffering of the body that leads to death but suffering is often much much broader much deeper than just the illness or the physical pain in fact I would say most suffering is interior the suffering of the soul the suffering of Newark Airport you know and and I think when I read this and I went back and I reread it I realized how perfectly suited it is because these things can be distinguished but they're Inseparable the suffering of the soul but heartbreak abandonment betrayal you know that sort of thing causes an anguish that goes beyond even four hours of waiting in Newark Airport and I think that also is an essential part of what the human condition is can you and and Dr mentioned the word contingency and that's you spend quite a bit of time just explaining that so maybe just explain that for us what do you mean by contingency so during that time when I had this accident I was working at Freiburg University and I worked at an Ethics Center and we were um like from from several perspectives we were working on anthropological and ethic medical ethical questions and contingency became a topic when I thought about what it means to be human so what it means for us to be here and to not to be able to control everything and Thomas Aquinas used it as uh the third of the five ways to explain not to prove the existence but to explain the existence of God that he's not contingent because he is necessary in our lives we have so many maybes maybe I will be born in New Jersey or in California or in Germany but it could have been different it could have been that my mom just moved right before I was born or she was displaced or she was um something happened to my parents would have happened to my parents then I would have been born somewhere else so many aspects of our lives are not are taken out of out of our control and so we just have to accept many things we cannot control and right now in in modern medicine we find many approaches to try to eliminate this kind of contingencies for example uh Sometimes women uh would schedule a C-section although they don't need it just to make sure that their baby is born that particular day or for example the the whole issue of physician-assisted suicide for many people is about the the anxiety to lose control or to the anxiety I might have to to endure pain and I don't I I want to make sure that this doesn't happen or that I I don't have to be carried off or don't have to be um don't have to be treated like like a patient like a dying patient and so people try to eliminate discontingencies those maybes in our lives this just to take control because the security helps us it gives us the the feeling of safety of we know what's going on but in our lives and this is why contingency became so important like something like sickness or accidents or even natural disasters it's out of our hands and we have to deal with those situations and conditions I mean life life is so contingent we can't even guarantee that this program will will survive I mean it may blow up before uh episode two we feel close I'm not so sure I mean life is that fragile it all comes down to whether you think life is a problem that you can solve and you need engineering skills you're just a machine and you tweak the machine to make it more efficient or life is a mystery you can't solve a mystery you have to endure it and from time to time you Marvel at it but you can't predict or manipulate a mystery you're inside the mystery you're not standing apart from it and people also and people are so anxious that's why Parents try to use pgd to make sure our kids should have like good genes right not to that they that they just that they don't have to face any problems with the child and also that the child that's real quick oh so it's it's the um the gene testing before implantation so they sometimes would use IVF to avoid a child that would be that would be sick or like would have an impairment right just to make sure they're on the safe side and their kids wouldn't suffer in identifying contingency is an essential part of human nature or Human Condition I I think you've you really nailed it you know in this sense that that suffering is an aspect of our contingency and yet the fear of being out of control actually is an invitation for some people to suffer that is to lift weights or to diet or to spend a fortune on Cosmetics or something like that and so there is a sense in which people will voluntarily undertake all kinds of deprivation and suffering but strictly for natural Goods that they can contain that they can control and I think that's ironic because you know upon reflecting on our life experience you realize that is a diminishing core of Human Experience what part of it I can contain and control okay in your teens through Sports your 20s through a career and that sort of thing but age brings that that necessary recognition of your Frailty and obviously of your mortality yeah I think the the word that I just prayed through as I was and literally prayed through I think your article is beautiful is is one of surrender that it seems like underlying this is this continual invitation to surrender would that be accurate I think it is accurate however I experienced many people who would say it's better to fight if if you get a cancer diagnosis you have to fight to survive I don't think they're opposed I'm not sure yeah yeah perhaps it's it's right and it might be very healthy to fight but on the other hand to to to trust and to surrender is I think is a less stressful approach and sometimes you are too exhausted if you're sick you're too exhausted too overwhelmed too anxious to be able to fight but you know oftentimes the art of prudence is knowing when to do one and when to cultivate the other I mean that great poet Dylan Thomas has that that line Do Not Go Gentle into that good night but rage rage against the dying of the light for some you have to rage fiercely you fight you resist the the onset of the darkness but for others they need to surrender serenely to trust to to submit to God's uh Providence and he knows best especially if you think that there is some kind of a call in this this sickness or in this illness or in anything that makes you suffer if you if you see that I think Ben surrender is the right response well I think that's why surrender itself is somewhat ambiguous it's double-edged you know on the one hand surrender can be defeatist it can be a resignation and really just a kind of um giving up giving up yeah but surrendering is begging the question who am I surrendering to am I surrendering to the illness or am I surrendering to my own mortality and to my Creator and to my loved ones and so I'm not going to fight in a way that is really destructive yeah again I think I can give an example so after this accident I I was not able to read for example because I had I had a fracture and I was not really not doing well I was not able to read and um but I I remembered the scripture verse my yoke is easy and I was surprised because I thought actually Lord your yoke is not so easy but I realized for some reason this yoke was easier than something else so I didn't know what this other part was so I was I was convinced convinced I wanted to take that yoke because it was easier and that helped me to surrender but in a dialogical way to a vowel and this that was was Christ yeah I think that that's a really good point in your experiences it's not just surrender to this Cosmic but it's surrendered to a person it's surrendered to a person who loves us and always has a good trust and surrender isn't it also possible that a certain breach can be created in someone else's heart as Pope Francis puts it and they see you struggling you can't read and they offer to read for you that suffer alongside that is possible you remember perhaps from my paper that I was hesitant about this you can offer sometimes but very often people are too quick in saying oh you can offer it up and oh that's a great chance and the Lord can do something with it because they don't have to go through it right and I think we have to give people time to find their own response to find this this connection to the Lord and this response to the call but someone else can also read it for you and can give you this this opportunity to see oh there is some light there is some meaning significance even if someone else is or if you're not able to see it yourself and I find at times they offer it up the quick offer it up it trivializes right it doesn't allow the individual to weep with those the week yeah to embrace it it can be pretty infuriating when they glibly remind you you know here's an opportunity to join your sufferings to that suffering of Christ like Mother Teresa I mean fewer as her as heroic as she was and yet she said you know this is a kiss from the cross but I'm going to ask Jesus to stop kissing me it's all right not to want to suffer now this is how it's not it's paradoxical but it's not contradictory to surrender and fight yeah because if you're trusting God if you're loving others and if you're allowing them to enter into your own pain there really is a sense in which you're just developing an alternative strategy so you're surrendering to some things but that's a more effective fight but I find that just Jesus's Agony in the garden in the heart I mean he was ultimately going to totally surrender to the father but there was this wrestling I think that he had to go through that ultimately I don't know makes it more beautiful if you will but so stay with us there's much much more to discuss on Franciscan University presents [Music] I think one of the biggest ways that I've seen Grace at work during my clinicals is watching patients who have hope one of my professors he often says that hope is the secret ingredient and that's really what I've seen in patient care whether it's hope for Recovery soon or hope of life after death hope is really what makes a difference for a patient I have to tell you in my time in hospital 39 days in ICU 71 days in hospital God was continually present there were many times that I was alone but I was never abandoned and I never felt abandoned by him on a contrary he could not have been closer he was with me at every moment and every step of the way and I am eternally grateful to him [Music] welcome back to Franciscan University university presents we're discussing and learning from illness and suffering um it seems to me that in some ways we live in a world that wants to do away with all sickness all suffering it's all bad sickness is bad death is bad suffering's bad how do you speak to that so for many people it's so scary because there is no there seems to be no meaning no no hope in suffering especially in terminal illness and um I I try to give this invitation to look deeper that life is a gift even though it's fragile but also even to go a step further that we are given this life by a giver who's got himself and who gave it to us out of love yeah yeah and does one necessarily have to have faith to understand that to to recognize that or how does how do you bring somebody that doesn't necessarily have faith to that point so um we talked a little about earlier about uh contingency I remember a woman she she read one of my articles on cosmetic surgery and she told me that she had suffered for a long time from looking at herself and seeing all these wrinkles and she told me after she had read the article she didn't even see them anymore and I think it can happen that we as human beings if we realize um we are fragile we are mortal we can be reconciled with our fragility and our vulnerability but of course the final step would be where where are we going so is there any hope or will everything be over when we die that's why I think there is an anthropological approach possible for anyone just to to be more relaxed with us being humans we having boundaries having limitations um yeah being weak being weak who likes that word no one I mean but weakness is such an well that was openness isn't that the signature of uh sanctity of the Little Flower Saint Therese I mean she gloried in her smallness by weakness I need the elevator to get to God I can't do it on my own so I throw myself upon Upon Jesus and he'll carry me right into the kingdom I mean that's an admission that for some people it would be a source of of Torment you mean why can't I be strong why can't I be like Prometheus and steal fire but on the other hand people are so relieved if they can let go these ideas it can be it can be so healing for them to to be reconciled with their Humanity yeah you know we're in a culture that flirts with materialism and ends up embracing a kind of Epicurean Hedonism by by necessity I mean uh so you talk about physical suffering you know illness and that sort of thing it's almost as though that is the universal Norm of evil you know there is no moral law and so if we're really kind of unconsciously materialistic in our way of life then what physical suffering and also emotional travail and all of that but it's like that's the only thing everybody agrees on must be prevented or stopped and then euthanasia is justifiable or all kinds of medical procedures and and so to discover the spiritual order even if it's only in my own personhood or in a relationship but that is a door that opens up to the creator also the communion but also to learn from models of people who were still in your article you speak of the German Jewish philosopher Franz Rosen schwag who contracted ALS very early and yet surrendered in a way but really fought because he worked with his his students he worked with his wife he worked with a number of people even when he could no longer write or read he could signal with his eyes and people who knew him who loved him you know and I just I find that that kind of role model opens up the possibilities for other people who you know even if you don't have someone close by who's taught you what it means to go through the school of suffering to read about someone and to discover that the maturing of his own genius was not in spite of but the fruit of his suffering I think with what was especially challenging also for for the others was to be dependent on people yes and it's it's so hard to be dependent because this is one of our goals in our life to be autonomous to be independent to be free and but we are intrinsically relational we we are we are as human beings we depend on others and we need others and I think this to admit this is is a great chance and France rosenstrike he was able to continue working because his wife would read from his eyes she read from his eyes and whenever I talk tell students about his story I see tears in in their eyes because it's so moving that someone would make the suffering it would make the sacrifice sorry and on the other hand for him to allow her to do that and not to to fall into despair but to continue working with what he had and what he still could give you make a point in the article about the whole idea for Independence is ultimately leading us to time of isolation um sadness aloneness maybe speak to that this what seems to be a good thing we want to grow up to be independent is ultimately separating us from one another and so sometimes um or there is a risk in what I'm saying and that's why I'm mentioning it first so the risk is we need people with impairments to to have a solidary uh communion or a society in which um everyone would care for the other person so they cannot become means right right for our values but on the other hand what I really want to emphasize is how necessary it is for us to become more human and to to live in solidarity just to be open to to help and to receive help to give love to receive love to change our society because to be dependent on others it's something so normal because we're always limited in our jobs in our physical conditions in our in our mental conditions in our I don't know into our intellect we always need the perspective or the help of others and that is so healthy to look for it and to see it as an enrichment and not as something that that comes with a threat right right it's not a threat the the the effort the aspiration to somehow achieve a level of perfection that is simply not possible to fall in human beings contingent creatures produces really a kind of nightmare it produces a a totalitarian state a concentration camp go to a gas chamber because you're not up to scratch you don't meet the standard of perfection and so I'm not only impatient with you I'm determined I'm intolerant I want to rid the world of people like you I mean Nathaniel Hawthorne gives us a very instructive and quite prophetic illustration of this in his short story The birthmark the woman has a birthmark and for most people it's emblematic of her beauty but her husband is really upset with it because it Mars this perfect uh this this Paradigm this perfect uh ideal he has of of of uh of facial Perfection she falls short and he's a scientist and he's able to uproot it he says just give me permission I'll get rid of it and he does at the expense of her own life that was the Pearl Beyond price and he couldn't bear it if we if we're not fixated on all of these defects we might be able to see that we're all defective and that we are a gift for each other yes we're a gift to ourselves but also for each other because everyone has something to give everyone we can benefit from everyone and we can be enriched by everyone and I think that's a real lesson especially for us as academics or for us who seem to be independent and strong it's sometimes so helpful that we need help as well you know when you speak of the contingency of our being The Human Condition and likewise the fragility of life or you know our own mortality yeah at the same time you you then posit the gift of being it's like okay yeah you you have to recognize that just to live to be is a gift even if you're not certain as to who The Giver is you know that you share this gift with others and and so one of my favorite sections of the article is where you're describing how illness becomes a motor a movement toward solidarity with other people who are equally contingent but also a kind of rehumanizing of society that people can relax I I had a friend in high school who's uh whose father got early onset Alzheimer's before it was really understood in the 70s and this became her career but even more it became the the controlling passion of her life she had to find the Cure in a nearly broker you know because she didn't want to suffer it she didn't want to relive what her father went through and so she wanted not just to be the hero who found the Cure but the one to and it and it really drove her out of relationships with her with her spouse and with other people as well and so to recognize illness as an invitation to solidarity with the people who are going to end up being ill that's one of the things I think sometimes it was going through my mind is that it becomes a problem to be overcome rather than a gift to be embraced and it's similar to vulnerability in general so when I started working on vulnerability and the fragility of the human person I recognized oh there are so many areas in our lives that are affected so for example my my way of teaching has changed ever since for example in sexual morality I would focus a lot on vulnerability because even people outside the Catholic Church would admit that if you look at at intimacy and the vulnerability in intimacy you would notice that to have a commitment first like the Catholic marriage that would protect the vulnerability of the most so the the most this the safest space for us as being vulnerable especially in our love and in our sexuality would actually be the Catholic marriage because you have the commitment first and then you will live together and then you have the intimacy and that's why it became this entire approach became a turning point for my teaching as well in many areas well it seems to me that for intimacy to work in any relationship you have to put yourself at risk that's to allow yourself to be vulnerable open transparent show who you are and who you are is riddled with imperfection yes but at the same time you should not put yourself at so much risk that you really would be destroyed or that you really would be harmed that's why you have to protect your vulnerability as well so you should not expose yourself in a way that that is unappropriate inappropriate or that could lead well little children are incredibly vulnerable and that invites others Predators uh to exploit them that is true and and that we mustn't permit so there is a limit a line that you draw and it's governed by reason yeah this leads us ultimately and you mentioned earlier Regis to that the death is a reality that everyone is going to have to deal with but you said that the only way that we can really accept that is to come and understand that they're the hope that there's something better that the hopes that there's something after that maybe speak to that so mortality is something we all share and we can be reconciled with it we can accept it we can even embrace it some people even think oh that's great when I die everything is over finally I don't have to struggle anymore so it will just be I will be sleeping forever and many people enjoy this as well but I think we're made for more as human beings our our soul is longing for something greater something deeper and that's why Faith gives us this perspective of of Hope especially for example if you're lacking justice so if you're suffering from Injustice from poverty it doesn't mean we don't have to help people who are suffering from that anymore of course it's always a call for us to to mitigate their suffering but on the other hand life cannot provide complete Justice and to know there is hope for a different world there is hope for the full revelation of what we hope or whom we want to see and whom we want to meet um this gives or this enriches Our Lives immensely beautiful I stay with us there'll be more of Franciscan University presents [Music] one thing that I often try to think about whenever I'm accompanying a patient is how can I reverence the Christ within this person a lot of the time that's just in this small everyday tasks of helping them eat or repositioning them or getting them a cup of water and those things can kind of seem mundane or not as important throughout the day but really those little opportunities each one of them is an opportunity to see the Christ within that person and to reverence him within that patient encounter what if you discovered a university with unmatched science faculty and programs a place where you didn't have to choose science over faith Franciscan University of Steubenville you'll find Faith inspired student focused research driven programs leading to satisfying careers in medicine scientific research engineering computer science and many more science and health fields at Franciscan University of Steubenville education is more than just a word it's a discovery [Music] welcome back and thank you for joining us you're watching Franciscan University presents which we record in communication Arts Studio here at Franciscan University in Steubenville our students are operating the cameras and the equipment and our theology professors Dr Regis Martin Dr Scott Hahn and I are discussing illness and suffering and what we can learn with them from Dr Katarina Vester hoisman a theology professor at our study abroad program in gaming Austria I don't think we mentioned at the beginning that you're actually from Germany I am from Germany yes that is true so I think I'm very german yes yes hopefully in a good sense yes absolutely absolutely beautiful we need good Germans yes we do do we yes we do you're one of the it's a great blessing to have you with us you speak of um Grace is almost as if it's a like this visitor a visitation of Grace in the midst of illness almost as if it comes upon you so I was reminded of of course of this very famous uh verse from Saint Paul my grace is sufficient um because in times of weakness in times of illness especially if we cannot do a lot if we cannot achieve accomplish a lot it comes like a visitation it comes like a gift some sometimes very unexpected sometimes surprising after a time of Darkness after a time of no finding any meaning and that can be hard but to be patient and to receive that gift when it comes I think then it can make all the difference to find the means I I think of that Paul line injunction that we are to Bear one another's burdens and that sort of implies that you've got a burden that I'm free to offer to shoulder let me carry the package which means the weight you had to bear is now diminished because I'm carrying it that's an invitation to solidarity to share in this suffering and that is a kind of visitation of Grace if we didn't suffer at all then it would be difficult to live with us because we'd be so perfect that we couldn't put up with any any imperfection yeah I think I was someone like that so I was just I think I was just had for many years of my life when I was working in academics after I had uh started working in academics and my life was so quick so and I think I was somehow successful a little bit so it was so quick and all of a sudden my life went down to zero to I had to slow down so much it's such a challenge but I I recognized it's a kind of healing you find because I realized when Jesus did his mission when he proclaimed the gospel he was not running around he was never in a hurry he had time to talk to everyone he had time to share to love to wait and I saw why do I have to be in a hurry all the time and that's why it can be a Healing Tree slower sometimes to be weaker I mean it's beautiful to be strong and to be efficient I'm German I like it I I really I like it but on the other hand it's so good to to embrace times when you when you are not as efficient because it gives you also time to reflect and and it opens the heart for for other people well you know I mean the the joke is that death is simply Nature's way of telling you to slow down uh and we all need to slow down I mean if we carry our death before us which I think is how Heidegger puts it then that package is filled with pain and suffering that's those are among the bags that we carry the final cancellation includes a certain down payment you're going to suffer and then you're going to die but that invites others I think to step in they feel that breach in the heart the pope speaks of when he discusses blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted that implies there's somebody out there who's eager to comfort you because he too has suffered yeah but on the other hand sometimes um as Saint Paul of the Cross said sometimes suffering comes without consolation sometimes it's way God uses to purify the soul if if within suffering there is no consolation or if it takes a long time until it comes so on the one hand we should always offer the Comfort we can give but if it's not provided from the Lord it might mitigate the suffering but it might not eliminate it I'm sorry this is too negative and you know you quote Paul of the Cross not many people know him but he also drew his deepest wisdom from Saint Paul you know my grace is sufficient comes at the end of a section in second Corinthians where you know he's talking about his his failings his persecutions but Above All The Thorn In the Flesh and how he continuously begged God to take it away not only is it the grace sufficient but there's a sense in which he is discovered the deeper wisdom even still that his strength is made perfect in my weakness now I was reminded of that uh recently when I was listening to Arthur Brooks this professor at Harvard Business School who is training up all of the future entrepreneurs and he was saying okay who is the greatest entrepreneur in history you know Henry Ford Bill Gates Jeffrey Bezos no it's Saint Paul the Apostle and he he basically introduces people who don't know Paul at all to how it is that you overcome your fear of failure your fear of weakness your fear of mortality and you recognize that God does more with our less you know and okay it's not necessarily an Evangelistic message to the students at Harvard Business School but it's actually a practical lesson that you learn from natural experience and then that could be elevated so that you can see the face of Christ there on the cross reigning in his own death in his own suffering but I mean it's a it's an opening up to the Splendor of Grace where sin abounds Grace Super abounds all the more yeah and it's true because many people wouldn't immediately think that they suffer with Christ I think I would have thought how dare I think that I would that I'm suffering with Christ but this helps to think that God really reveals himself still in my suffering well father just before the end of that first session you plunged us into a pretty deep mystery when you touched on of Jesus in the garden a sweating great drops of blood and asking literally begging the father do you think maybe this could be postponed do I have to face the cross but then resigning himself to the the inscrutable will of the father yes you have to you have to March to the very limit of the finite talk about contingency he carried it on his back it was nailed to him on that cross so we can identify with that because he has already identified with us there's a mutual exchange here we can draw no end of Grace from his example that is true when I read um the the of the writings because she only dictated of the French Mystic Mart Ruba she suffered her her whole life she experienced the Stigmata and she would experience Christ's suffering every week Christ's passion and every Thursday night she would tell her spiritual director father is it Thursday again do I have to go through it again I I can't I can't and he would always assure her as you can you can with the help of Christ you can and I think that is something that is okay it is okay not to want to suffer right right but to go through it if necessary and then to receive the grace to be able to go through it and to survive it um if it's something that is it's almost inhuman I mean certainly masochistic to say oh good Friday's here I can hardly wait to jump into this uh this great sea of of pain I mean that that's that's not that's not human you know as a Christian I remember when I was in seminar reading an article that was comparing The Death of Socrates in Christ and Socrates goes to it they're very heroically in Christ the night before it's like if there's any other way and he said Socrates was a philosopher and Christ was a priest right and in that in that suffering and that offering of the father but I think that that is the gift for us is is to be able to encounter God in that and you said earlier that that God shows himself in the midst of it I think in some ways in some experiences it's the only way it's the only way that he can show himself in a manner that is so real and so authentic and so vulnerable that when we were able to find him there it changes everything I think it changes our entire spiritual it's really the only experience that teaches us anything about life but wisdom is something you derive from Pain and Agony I mean Jacques maritine said there is this intuition of being and if you don't have it you never grow in self-understanding the intuition of being is life is fragile it's contingent we're children of poverty I live but I move towards death and I need to accept that maybe even embrace it this contingency is the sign of my creatureliness this is how God made me and I should receive it at least with a kind of Joy a kind of resignation but if the intuition of being in Maritime it's the intuition of being his gift first and foremost yeah and even if you're not sure who the giver is his name is God you know nevertheless it is a kind of beckoning of the soul to reflect upon it and if you don't see being as a gift if you see it only as a burden which you back into a kind of medical messianism where medicine the Pharmaceuticals vaccines and of course we are grateful to God and to science for all of the cures and all of the research and that sort of thing but you can you know you can make too much of of medicine you know back in the early 70s Ivan ilich wrote the limits of medicine and it was subtitled medical Nemesis where medicine can actually be a force of dehumanizing and I think we've all experienced a little bit of that in in certain Hospital settings and certainly during covet as well where it was so dehumanizing this absolute fear that paralyzed us of any suffering and death here is exhibit a of what you're describing when the Holy Father went to the Gemelli hospital after the assassination attempt as soon as he emerged from from unconsciousness he summoned the entire medical staff and he reminded them look I'm the subject of this I'm not an object I'm not a thing don't reduce me don't objectify me I'm really at the center of this drama treat me with respect and sure enough they did great choice you maybe Leslie you talk about how all the suffering the illness aging that it actually can help humanize Society what do you mean by that so I think we're giving in those situations in those conditions we're giving up our self-defense somehow sometimes we're forced to because we cannot defend ourselves against death for example against sign of Aging but it helps us also to to be more more open to others more open more more helpful but not in a way just bowing down to help the others but just accompanying each other and that is an improvement in solidarity if charity is not something I I give with either some money or just from above but just walking with the other person slowing down to to to their speed and just being with them and I think that was one of the greatest lessons I I learned myself and I wanted to to transmit that um being a company is something so comforting and it changes it changes Society it changes this this tendency of we have to get rid of all these limitations we have to be perfect and um otherwise we won't be safe no we can be safe if we're with each other and if we're dedicated to to helping each other and isn't that what our Blessed Mother does with Jesus she accompanies him I mean in some ways I think for me personally the diff more difficult suffering maybe this will change I don't know is watching other people so and knowing that there's not a lot I can do but the mother walks with her son to Calvary and accompanies and just is with him and is present with him knowing that it's his to Bear there's nothing she can do about it but she can be with him yeah that's why the vulnerability is not just the vulnerability of the patient but also of family members that they have like lack of resources lack of time it is a financial burden if someone in the family is sick it it takes a lot of time and and makes everyone suffer as well so we we should be able to relate to that not just to to the patient but also to the entire family or those who are affected as well just by not being able to to do something or to change the situation I mean at the end of the day isn't this really the most astonishing feature about God he is impassable he doesn't suffer in himself but he can certainly suffer in others and he enters directly dramatically into that suffering he becomes a wounded sir urgent yeah the wounded healer a wounded healer The Compassion of God he's he's impossible but he's not incompassible right that formula yeah yeah and that's so it's so comforting to know he feels my pain he feels it more deeply than I do next our panel and our guest will share their final thoughts on what we come to have learned through suffering and sickness please stay with us [Music] our Lord says clearly I am the resurrection and the life John 11 25 and I could not raise myself three inches let alone Raise Myself from death and he did that and I now have confidence Supreme confidence in heaven because of what he's already done in this life here there is a place where education begins and faith and reason connect Franciscan University of steubenville's online programs will advance your career through an e-learning experience that's both academically excellent and passionately Catholic with online degrees taught by full-time professors in theology catechetics business education and other disciplines you can earn your master's degree online without changing your lifestyle find out more today at franciscan.edu where your faith and career can connect online [Music] and welcome back to Franciscan University presents we've come to our final segment so Regis if you would offer your final thoughts yeah I'm really overwhelmed by the eloquence of of this essay and I can't thank you enough for for writing it and I know it you drew upon a great and deep School of suffering to produce the insights that that so Dazzle and deepen our appreciation for the Redemptive dimension of pain and suffering I'm reminded of one of the loveliest poems I I ever heard it was read to me at a mass in Atlanta Georgia of all places on Thanksgiving morning by an Irish priest it's a poem by Rainer Maria Roca I think he's german yes I I can't speak for the German but the translation is really quite moving and and a couple of lines stand out we are all following he says this hand falls and it is in others and yet there is one who holds this falling endlessly gently in his hands those lines capture for me the whole predicament of The Human Condition the tension between weight the tension between gravity and Grace I mean there's the upward surge of Eros and then there's the whole weight of Thanatos and the two come together they meet at The Still Point of the Turning World which is Christ who holds that falling endlessly gently in his hands we're all tending toward death dissolution and yet that movement downward is intercepted arrested by this upward surge of Grace glory and God so the last word is not pain but Paradise that's beautiful Scott well I too want to thank you for the article and I'm glad that people are going to have access to it in re-reading it I was reminded of the deaths of my parents and what it was like to uh to reflect upon that but in the Light of Christ you know who turns pain into passion and all of that but um when my father died he had been an agnostic up until the time of the diagnosis and as he was there and I I got to be with him in his last hour and that was truly a sacred moment but it was his he was German you know he was very strong and and quiet but the illness broke him but in the process it opened him up to Redeeming Grace praying for the first time in his entire life and I'm approaching in a matter of days the age at which he died and so my own kids are aware of how much more I'm thinking of my mortality at this age you know but I saw what suffering did in sculpting this great man my dad into a little child who learned to trust God at the end of life when he surrendered and it was it was beautiful I've never stopped thinking about it but especially was it fruitful to think about my mom died just about seven years ago and it was it was similar to my father because the the science of medicine and the doctors just were so sure it was this until it wasn't and then it was that and you know my mom's quip was well they don't call it practicing medicine for nothing because they just keep practicing on me you know but she also entered at the end into a joy that that my sister and I had never seen before where she let go and she let God take her the contingency of her own being the gift of her own life the shared relationships that we were enjoying in a new way at the very end and so I I can't help but wonder if people will read this and reflect upon it I realize it's pitched at an academic level as it should be from an academic but I think it can also reach down into the depths of the heart and so I have to say thank you I agree I agree with that Kettering to your final thoughts yes so suffering is always difficult I don't like to suffer to be honest but on the other hand I remember the relief I felt when I when I could let go and I could Embrace Life as it is and how much I appreciated being with others um being in a different way with others who are slower who who had like more severe sicknesses than I had just to be with them and to to see that it can be good not to focus on the pressure all the time on accomplishments on what what is your task sometimes even what is your call because I know many many priests are suffering from this I have to do everything for the for the kingdom of God I have to work all the time yes that is true but sometimes God is calling us really to slow down to let him do and and to grow because those are times of growth when when we let him um work in us and that's usually when we are not working so much or when we are not able to do so much ourselves then he can really work in us and I I think that's very beautiful very Humane and a way to to meet Grace and to experience Grace and uplifting and also different kinds of Joy a deep Joy yeah uh if you would like to learn more about today's topic we have a free handout for you that means what it means to be human the article was written by Dr Vester horseman in with what we've discussed today the handout is yours for free simply by going online to faithandreason.com presents or by calling the number we'll provide to you momentarily as I was reading your article I was remembering an occasion I was in Tanzania actually Kenya Kenya and they had brought me the bishop had brought me to a priest who was suffering I believe actually had ALS and by the time I met him he was not able to walk anymore and I was with myself and a bunch of people we began to pray for him and just pray that the Lord would heal him I believe God can heal if if God chooses to but it became fairly evident to me that that it didn't seem like God was going to heal him so we just prayed all the louder because that's what you're supposed to do and that just took a moment and I asked the bishop if I could just spend some time with the priest just he and I and he began to share his story and he said that before he got sick Mass was basically empty nobody would come to confession he said his his preaching was with no power with no influence and they began to talk about how his life had been changed because of the illness he said um mass is full now and I could hear confessions for five or six hours a day he said people said that I'm more empathetic that I'm more kind and more loving and I literally found myself praying Lord don't heal him right which is but what was happening before his very before the eyes of his community was he was becoming more human it was becoming and and it wasn't just him impacting him it was impacting his community by them watching him and seeing him and seeing how he's being transformed but my experience says is that's what we want right as Christian Community we want we want to be patient and loving and kind we just don't want to go through the suffering he said there there's got to be some other way that we can get there I'll pray my rosaries but the reality is is often times maybe not for everybody but for often times the way that we come to that place is ultimately through suffering and through the pain and through the cross and I think in the end when we can begin to find Jesus in that when we find him there not just there but here in my own suffering my own broke this my own vulnerability and weakness we begin to find him anywhere and we can find him in baptisms and weddings and beautiful but in the midst of divorce and illness and infertility and dementia when we find him there when we find him on a cross we can find him anywhere and I think that's what your article says is that God is present that we're not alone and there's actually meaning to it so let's pray Heavenly Father we pray for just those who are watching at this time that are experiencing suffering and difficulty and illness and weakness and Brokenness and vulnerability and and aging Lord Jesus just show yourself and reveal yourself to them that they are not alone that they are loved there is purpose and meaning and there is hope at the end May almighty God for his blessings on you the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit amen thank you so much for being with us thank you it was an honor and a great job thank you download a free handout on today's Topic at faithandreason.com presents you can also watch past episodes of Franciscan University presents or request the handout by emailing us at presents at franciscan.edu or reach us by phone for today's handout by calling 800-783-6447 that's 800-783-6447 [Music] foreign

Channel: Franciscan University of Steubenville

Views: 2,273

Keywords: Franciscan University, Steubenville, Ohio, Catholic, college, Franciscan University of Steubenville, Franciscan University of Steubenville (College / University), Franciscan University Presents, Presents, EWTN, Fr. Dave Pivonka TOR, Dr. Regis Martin, Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Katharina Westerhorstmann, suffering, hope, illness, pain, What It Means to Be Human

Id: NUTWCxO14mo

Length: 58min 30sec (3510 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 01 2023