How to Deal with Confusion in the Church - Dr. Scott Hahn and Fr. Gerald Murray Full Interview

hi i'm dr scott hahn and i want to welcome you to the road to emmaus a podcast from the saint paul center and today we have a special treat a dear friend father gerald murray pastor at holy family parish in manhattan across the street from the united nations has joined me for a conversation based upon a brand new book that is coming out from our own publishing arm emmaus road entitled calming the storm navigating the crises facing the catholic church and society sounds like a really timely title to me father murray i want to say thank you for joining us and also thank you for being here the last several days so that we're going to have an audio version of this book almost at the same time we're going to have the uh the written published form too so tell me a little story about uh the book but let's begin by just summarizing a little of your own background well scott it's great to be here and it's a pleasure to meet your team you've got a wonderful team here at st paul um and it's been great working with diane montana who is a journalist i had known in rome and does wonderful work there so it was a great team effort uh as regards my background so i am a priest of the archdiocese of new york i was ordained in 1984 by archbishop john o'connor then became cardinal the year after i was ordained and uh as a priest of the archdiocese i've been stationed mostly at the beginning in hispanic parishes i speak spanish so along with a few other languages well i do i speak french and italian and no portuguese and then latin but the spanish was very useful i was in the south bronx and in northern manhattan and then after being assigned for two years at st patrick's cathedral as one of the assistants cardinal o'connor sent me to rome to study canon law so from 93 to 97 it was my privilege to be in the eternal city john paul ii was the pope at the time and a very inspiring and saintly man and i learned the church's law and became you know familiar with the role and importance of canon law in guiding the church bishops priests and that's been helpful because when i came back to new york after getting the degree i began to be invited on television programs mostly at fox news to analyze religious news and you probably noticed that a lot of the commentators on fox news and msnbc cnn are all lawyers yes they know how to argue their case and they know how to put it together in a brief package so i've been doing that for fox news and a few other outlets the world over well that's the good friend raymond arroyo yes and the people posse exactly and that was a pleasure because uh after being on fox for a number of years ewtn contacted me at the time of the papal resignation in 19 2013 pope benedict announced his resignation and raymond arroyo asked me if i would be one of the commentators on the coverage over in rome and that began what became known as the papal posse right so myself uh bob royal at the time father roger landry right uh who was yeah a wonderful priest and he was in rome covering that also with us so after the election of pope francis uh when things got back to the normal uh meaning raymond's in washington bob royal is there and i'm in new york that sense of normal that sense is normal yes is that here we are back in america and then let's talk about uh the ongoing news in the church and the people passing basically once a month we're on raymond's program and we analyze a lot of interesting news in the church which uh in some ways became the basis for this book you know to because the book largely centers on discussing how catholics can both understand and analyze and react to the news in the church so to understand what's happening and what's the appropriate reaction there are several bullet points i'd like to indicate as sort of the back story i mean way back in the foreground you have uh i should say in the background you have two parents who met and fell in love at law school right and so you have law in your dna uh but you also have a pastoral approach that is rooted to canon law the church's law and we first met i believe around 2018 when we gave an award to madeline stebbins god rest your soul in new york city and then i spoke the next morning at the uh at your parish yes and it was an amazing time you extended hospitality i spent a night there as well and i know raymond arroyo and others have done so also but uh the next year it was really uh an exciting time for us to go back to manhattan in order to give you the award defense graffiti the defender of the faith because what you had been doing in your teaching your preaching but also in your commentating on ewtn and fox news was such a level-headed solidly grounded faithful orthodox approach to the faith i mean defending the faith but also proclaiming the faith and so we were really delighted not only to be able to award you the defense graffiti award the center of the faith but also to assemble robert royal and raymond arroyo who kind of concelebrated a papal passing with me non-liturgical of course but it was uh it was surreal for me to be with you and with them and we ended up broadcasting that live that evening as well and so it was around that time we began a conversation about hey look bishop schneider bishop athanasius schneider and his book christos vincent has done such a great job in conversation with diane montagna why don't we you know take it from a theologian from europe who did a phenomenal job bring it down to a pastoral level so that you can speak theologically in terms of canon law but you can speak i think more directly to ordinary catholics and so right off the bat you know when i texted diane in rome she was very favorable towards this and it just seemed to be right except for one thing the last part of the backstory covet you know because it was near the beginning of lent that diane and i had this exchange about doing a book length conversation but it was not for several months it really wasn't until the fall i understand that she was able to get out here and to meet up with you at the parish and begin the interviews that became the chapters that now form this book calming the storm navigating the crises facing the catholic church and society and another point or two the you always send out a manuscript to get endorsements but you usually send it out to people that would just seem like a little beyond reach like cardinal serra and yet the blurb that he gave for this book is right from the heart and likewise cardinal mueller the former prefect for the congregation for the doctrine of the faith and perhaps my favorite of all cardinal raymond burke uh and his is one of the longest and most sincere blurbs i'm not going to read them but i can tell you this that if our audience could read them they would buy this book in a heartbeat and it's going to be available in a matter of weeks and might not be because of supply chain issues or the printer it might not be until the early part of 2022 but i am convinced this book is going to do a whole lot of people a whole lot of good and so on their behalf and on my own i just want to say thanks again but now could you walk us through the book sure well the idea is uh basically the way uh i talk on ewtn you know extended conversation about news in the church and as you say the theological canonical background but then the pastoral application how to the faithful live their faith amidst crises uh so that's all in the background to uh diane montana came up with the idea that we would take the incident in the life of our lord when he was asleep in the boat and they were crossing the sea and then suddenly the waves came up and the winds and the apostles panicked and the lord said oh ye of little faith and the lord calmed the storm so let me press pause for just a moment and just say pray tell when's that inspiration i mean that is from the holy spirit because i think for a lot of the faithful at this point in time given the confusion in the world the nation and especially our own church it feels as though the lord of lords is fast asleep in the bowel of the boat and i i'm sure he he could have awakened earlier before they were in a panic but i think it was a test of their faith just as it is a test of our faith it is and it provided a great framework because we look at the crisis in the church is something the lord of course he knows all things over all times but he was preparing us for it by living out this experience and teaching the apostles a lesson so when the lord seems to be asleep he may in fact be asleep in the boat but right now what's real what are really asleep or the faithful have to wake up and turn to him and say you know the vessel of the church is in the hands of the lord are we fully awake in faith and in devotion and it works a charity and how informed are we about what's going on i just want to again pause for a moment because that is one of the most striking and ironic reversals it's like a photographic negative in the old days you know it looked as though the lord was asleep physically while the disciples were awake physically when in fact he was wide awake spiritually and these guys were fast asleep spiritually exactly they were really out of touch with how the lordship of christ is manifested especially in the storms and that's one question i think a lot of people ask they would say well if god really loves us why will he make us go through all these storms in the life of the church right now yeah and the answer that diane and i discussed this numerous times in the book is that we should never impose our set of expectations on divine providence in other words divine providence plays itself out to instruct us and our reaction has to be based on an acceptance of the way things are not because they're necessarily that's the what god wants because he certainly doesn't want sin he doesn't want free people believing in heresy but when those things happen we have to turn to him and say lord calm this storm and we have to be effective and one of the most important ways we're effective have a proper understanding of who the lord is pray to him and then imitate him right you know and imitating him reminds me of the prayer that was on his lips on good friday taken from psalm 22 from david the psalmist who cries out my god my god why hast thou forsaken me and of course the psalmist felt forsaken but not as forsaken as jesus must have felt in his own human consciousness and yet that same psalm that begins with a cry of dereliction ends with a triumphant note of thanksgiving and praise and i think our lord knew that when he was quoting it but at the same time he wasn't just miming he wasn't just kind of parroting lines there really is a sense in which we can say as children to god the father my god my god why have you forsaken me and he won't be offended so long as we recognize the fact that while we wouldn't do this to people we love we're not god we're not that wise we're not that loving and so he puts us through things like coveting puts us through things like political upheaval he puts jesus through calvary and we hear in romans in hebrews 5 though a son he learned obedience through what he suffered and became the source of eternal salvation to all of those who obey him and so we're going to have good fridays and a lot of other days not quite as extreme but i i think that is a healthy reminder something else that struck me in the endorsement that cardinal burke did give us he said with true fatherly affection and firmness father murray unequivocally urges us to keep christ at the center of our lives and reassures us that christ is with us above all in the bark of saint peter and that if we remain faithful in love with him he will calm the stormy waters which would otherwise envelop and drown us true fatherly affection and firmness really stands out because i come from a german background i don't think you do do you uh 98 irish there we are well i mean i don't know but i suspect that the germanic temper has caused more world wars than the irish uh the irish might cause pub fights but i always worry about expressing my anger because it invariably comes out sideways and i look around and i see a whole lot of people who are focused almost fixated upon the bad news understandably because it's not only there's more of it and it's worse than what any of us expected but at the same time it has such a debilitating effect that anger that sadness can easily paralyze us but with fatherly firmness and affection as cardinal burke says you know i i think of how much we need leaders and especially father figures to counteract the false charge of toxic masculinity but to really fill the leadership vacuum that we feel you know not only at the level of the executive office in our nation but either also you know even in these uh in in church positions as well well see that's one of the things people for instance the german bishops have said that we should bless homosexual unions right you know this has been a big discussion point and they got furious when the vatican said no to this earlier this year um so people say well how do we react to the german bishops does our respect for our fathers in christ include just keeping quiet and the answer is no if you love your father when he does something wrong you bring it to his attention that's right and if he's insistent on it and you say look your vehemence trying to justify the unjustifiable doesn't convince me because by the way you're not the guardians of the faithful jesus christ you are supposed to be the guardians faithful but what you're guarding is not your own message it's the message of christ i try to make the point in the book numerous times that rational understanding of the gospel should never be cast aside simply because an authority figure contradicts it if someone contradicts the teaching of the church which has happened sad to say we say look this is what the church has always taught this is the scriptural tradition basis this is other theologians explain it if saint thomas aquinas didn't accept it the chances are it's not true that's right so let's look at what happened in the past with these problems because to for instance on the quest of homosexuality the idea that the church has been wrong for two thousand years and now we've got to change our teaching anyone who says that is subversive that's not how we understand god is the giver of the moral order god is the creator so to affirm the truth with rational argumentation even with some emotion but you know one of the lessons of the gospel really has to be only the lord could take the whip of cords and without sin start throwing people out of the temple most of us are going to overdo it so we should be calm about it but you know the the fact that the lord did get upset i always think back the lord said herod that fox even the lord used you know colorful language at times to make his point so we do that but our real strength is to say lord calm the storm and help us to be faithful yeah that example of herod i think is apt because here is a royal ruler you know and so secular politics i mean he's clearly above the lord now obviously he's not the lord of lords but jesus exemplifies an approach you know that that allows for that kind of astute critique tell that fox on the other hand you know i think what you're giving us is wisdom so that we can adjust or calibrate our own judgments and expressions so that it's not really fraternal correction that we would offer to a bishop or an archbishop or to a you know to a an episcopal conference in germany or in the us much less the pope but there is a filial correction that is you know not as a little child would presume or dare to correct a parent but as in a grown son or daughter i get that from my kids and i thank them for it and i i think that kind of filial correction is an expression not of disrespect but of friendship and respect and to withhold it in fact can betray friendship and i think subvert the true status that we have as sons and daughters of god we don't have many good models for doing it but i think as you just said a minute ago you can't justify the unjustifiable and it's not just 2 000 years of catholic tradition although that is more than sufficient it's judaism it's islam it's the natural moral law it's the universal truth of human nature that goes back to creation itself even for those who might question whether there was a creation nevertheless there is no question as to what human nature is and what perfects it and so i i think we have to recognize i i'm reminded as you were speaking of a friend of mine a dear friend of more than 20 years and you know she went to confession and she confessed something that had to do with her own struggle with her orientation and the priest you know commanded her to to go to a gay bar and celebrate her orientation and she interrupted and politely said father i'm going to step out of the confessional now but before i do i would encourage you to go to confession for what you just said to me beautiful yeah beautiful i remember i was scared of the heart well you see this is one of the teachings of vatican ii was the the equality of all the believers of all the baptized it was something they highlighted right so while the the laity or the sheep they're not the sheep in the sense of unreactive receptors of the gospel you know we are all called you know brothers and sisters in christ and the fellowship of faith is based on a mutual sharing so mutual sharing also includes hey get with the program here you're a catholic priest you're telling me to go do something immoral you need to repent of that that's beautiful i'm thinking mutual sharing is right but shearing is not they're not here just simply to shear the sheep and we shouldn't fleece the sheep either right you know that's another problem indeed so again walking through the book here there are a number of of points that are worth talking about okay so you discuss in chapter one your own background your life and your vocation that is so good the anecdotes the family though the way you dedicate this book to your father right right now my dad was uh he would be viewed as the ideal catholic educational uh product we could use that word he went to catholic high school catholic college catholic law school uh was a daily mass goer loved the classics national review red national review magazine had no apologies there he was a loyal american and he taught me precisely the kind of thing that you know i'm hope we're going to pass on to people here which is he said to me jerry you owe everything to your catholic faith you owe everything to the fact that god loved you and served you you have to serve him in the church he was happy when i became a priest and then he used to you know i'm sure as you do with your kids hey did you see this did you hear that idea now you want to talk about this he always had good things to teach me and so i wanted to dedicate the book to him my mom they met in law school you're right boredom law another jesuit school and boy you know growing up in a house with two lawyers i know your house has two theologians so well you learn how to reason actually you learn if you're sitting at a dinner table you better not say well it has to be that way because i say so um change that tune back it up exactly in the second chapter you discuss the disunity that we have in the culture but also in the church it seems like we're living through an age of confusion unlike anything else in recent times uh what takeaway what advice counsel would you give to people well there are two things to recognize that to i say that their problems in the church is not an act of disloyalty to the church and it's certainly a lot of a la it's not a disrespect to the pope uh sad to say pope francis who we admire and pray for and love he has done some things which make us scratch our heads and quite frankly were never done by previous popes amoris letizia the death penalty abu dhabi's statement that god wills all religions things of this sort and even the mode appropriate but we might well we'll talk about the latin mass too but in other words he's done things that directly contradict what his predecessor said on a doctrinal level so how are we supposed to interpret it i go into that in the book try to explain it and again the appeal is not to you know this priest says that that one says that you pick who you want to follow the appeal is the lord jesus christ revealed to the church his truth the church is basically explicated propagated and explained that over 2 000 years when things come along that don't fit in or don't seem to fit in we have to sit down and do our homework find out where it is so that's what i try to do in the book you know and what you're doing in this book is what everyone needs to develop almost as a habit to habituate this sense of the supernatural you know a supernatural sense is what enables us to rise above right-wing left-wing conservative liberal to recognize well supernatural common sense that what we have in the church in these sacred mysteries are what you can't find anywhere else in the world and yet their ear for the salvation of the world and for our own souls and for us to become saints and nothing less and if we keep our eyes really focused on christ that supernatural sense that supernatural common sense i think will become more and more of a habit for the faithful and i'm seeing in the rising generation of younger clergy that same development that same habituation and so i i do think that we're not going to be out of the confusion anytime soon but i do think that people are going to find themselves you know clear-headed enough to actually provide leadership for their families their parishes and yes sure their diocese as well now in chapter 3 you also discuss what happens when prominent pastors and leaders who are in positions of authority also speak confusion and what what lessons do we have from that well we have the lesson that the highest form of charity is to tell someone the truth right now it has to be done in a way that is going to be most effective and when it comes to family member since you have ongoing relationship and deep knowledge of each other you can figure those things out a little more easily when it comes to a public figure you have no access to you basically you just have to express yourself to those in your circle of influence but if you want to you can take up the pen you can write uh you can you know make known what's public and certainly academics journalists uh people in the public realm they have a right according to canon law and the natural right to make known uh what they disagree with in the leadership i point out in the book a few times pope francis has encouraged what he calls gospel frankness parizea greek word right he's also said criticism makes us better because it helps us re-examine what we've done so i take him up on it and i challenge him because you know on a couple of points he i don't think he's explained how prince is giving communion to divorce and remarried people fits in with the indisputability of marriage likewise on the death penalty the catholic church has taught the legitimacy of the death penalty right from the start he says it's a form of vengeance it's an offense against human dignity i don't agree we need to i think look at that again in light of the tradition uh not a page of scripture nor a doctor in the church agree with that either yes well i say in my book if if the death penalty is immoral per se then we're accusing god the father of immorality because yes his blood is spilled his blood shall be spilled so it's that's a problem now i know most people don't like the death penalty from the point of view of and enacting it but i guess what i've been reading a book recently about japanese atrocities in the second world war uh one way you defend the dignity of human life is you vindicate the rights of those who've been offended and you also give the offender the clear understanding what he did is a serious offense and he needs to be you know pay for it so to speak that's a longer discussion maybe we can do a show yeah let me say one more thing too because the motivation has never been deterrence uh saint thomas aquinas uses the latin term vindication it's the vindication of the objective moral or exactly and in genesis 9 verse 6 you actually have this doesn't in any way demean the dignity of man man was made in the image and likeness of god so if you take the life of a man who bears the image and likeness of god you forfeit that right to life and likewise it can be enforced because the authorities are not just simply exerting their own private power but they're really exercising authority in the name of god whose image and likeness they bear and so this is a conversation i suppose for another time but you know you're right i mean pope francis has asked us has really called us to exercise this virtue of horazia that is a boldness in approaching other people but we don't go for the juggler we go for the heart sure we really want to reach the heart and so we we express the truth with love and at the same time you know the anger of man does not work the righteousness of god but we don't have to wait until we're completely devoid of any anger or we will have to wait until we're buried yes and in fact um anger is sort of like the central nervous system you know so that uh you know if you cut your your hand it's gonna hurt it's a sign something's wrong if you get angry when you see an injustice it's a sign that your sense of justice is lively you know when i see what's going on uh for instance our christian brothers and sisters in africa who are being you know killed in nigeria by these terrorists in the name of islam and then you say to yourself this is wrong the government is too passive they've got to protect these people that's not unrighteous anger no no it doesn't mean any human not to us yes it wouldn't be so i think as regards the analogy for the churches if father x gets up in the pulpit and says you know we have to tell homosexual couples they're as welcome here as anybody else the answer is anybody's welcome in the church what we don't accept is people who are pledging to commit mortal sin with each other that they should be treated as if they're married right and that's not that's not a defense against them that's the the act of justice and informing them what they need to do because by the way the standard is not what father x says it's what jesus christ says yeah and when you're addressing an assembly of bishops archbishops and colin and cardinals such as you find uh in germany you know you find these clerics who are so much more inseparably united to the secular state and these liberal or postmodern values than they are to the magisterium and the word of god in scripture and tradition i think they're deserving of at least a mode appropriate or two again we can talk about that at a later time right you know but one thing i'd like to discuss with you near the end of our conversation is uh the experience that we've had together at the saint paul center but especially with the priest retreat oh yes look back and just share your own reflections about what we were sharing together sure no one of the great things that the saint paul center does is offer these priests retreats which are basically scriptural meditation and reflection retreats at a very nice resort not far from here in west virginia and you know last one what there were 300 priests or something so it was wonderful you spoke beautifully we had in fact this year in 2021 we had two conferences one in texas in january since we couldn't do it in la jolla because california was shut down and that was maxed out and they've invited us back again in 2022 a week or two after easter when priests really need to be renewed we're going to go back to la jolla in january of 2022 expecting well over 200 and then again in ogle bay in july so for the first time we're going to be doing three priests retreats in 2022 with over 600 in attendance and i must admit that that is the highlight of the year not only for me but for john bergsma for tim gray for larry feingold these lay people who are scholars mostly converts but not entire not all of them but to be able to give back to you priests after you have sacrificed so much you've presided at the mass you've heard our confessions you blessed our our marriages and our kids and that kind of thing uh and we go back all the way to o5 where we did it for the first time and began to discover year after year that there's a waiting list that this you know and i i realize that in canon law you know it is an annual obligation a norm for the priest to go on a retreat but i talked to one priest who was describing what his brother priests had also experienced and that is diocesan sponsored events that are very enmeshed in the bureaucracy psychiatrists lawyers counselors and this kind of thing you know and then to have a conference that focuses on how to not only read scripture from the heart of the church but how to show the connection and discover the depth of how the new was concealed in the old and how the old testament is revealed and fulfilled to the new and not just back in the first century but through the holy eucharist in the 21st century every bit as much as it was back when jesus was walking the streets of palestine and you know i it is just an amazing experience but i'll tell you one thing to look out and see you at that one time i was sort of uh you know i was surprised please delighted but also thinking okay we've got a tough crowd here professionally trained no no we we love it in fact um you know one of the great things that the saint paul center does in you and your colleagues is to bring the old testament alive not simply as a historical subject but as what it is the preparation for the fulfillment right and then for us as catholics preaching every sunday sometimes we don't understand how the first reading usually taken from the old testament relates to the gospel but i have a much better sense of that right thanks to saint paul center yourself the colleagues because you know i think one of the great things we have to understand about christianity which is what you understand god made the world in such a way that everything reaches his fulfillment in christ but everything didn't start with christ you know god prepared that and that for preparation is important for our knowledge and sadly in most seminary programs the old testament really doesn't get a lot of study and it's usually just well you got to know the israelites were here here and here this happened to them then they got exiled and then they came back and then jesus came that's not enough no when you're studying the new testament apart from the old you're not getting sufficient background i would say i would go so far to say that the new testament is theologically unintelligible apart from the old yes just as the old is like a story in search of an ending there are all of these promises that are left dangling yet to be fulfilled and then christ fulfills them in a way that goes beyond the hebrews highest hopes you know and when you think about what jesus chose to do on his first day back from the dead easter sunday there must have been a lot of options stop by pilots say hi to the sanhedrin certainly his mother but you know when you read luke 24 you realize that his first day back from the dead was spent hours and hours of teaching scripture to clopas and his companion right before they even recognize them but their hearts are burning and then their eyes are open in the breaking of the eucharistic bread and by the time they get back to jerusalem jesus shows up again easter sunday evening to lead another lengthy scripture study for peter and the apostles now you know clearly jesus wasn't wasting his time but just as clearly he must prioritize the importance and the value and the power of understanding sacred scripture to grasp the the meaning of the paschal mystery apart from the scriptures the paschal mystery just looked like you know a resuscitated victim you know but when you look at it in light of the law and the prophets the way we do year after year on these retreats you come away saying you know it's amazing how unamazed we are at god becoming man an infant but not only that a you know cruciform there on good friday and then a consecrated host on the altar in the tabernacle upon our tongues you know it it and then how about this entrusting this whole mission to a group of men one of whom betrays him judas right saint peter denies him when he's under pressure and then the lord when he sees them afterwards sends them out and they go out and preach the gospel to the whole world so it shows the power of grace so we shouldn't become so disappointed with our church leaders that we say everything's a mess no with god's grace lots of good habits that's right you know i think of father jeremiah our son who was ordained on may 21st of 2021 and how special and sacred and surreal that was but i also say look at what god is doing with father murray i mean he's the son of two attorneys [Laughter] i won't go there but i mean everyone needs an attorney that's right i want to thank you not only for spending the time with me in conversation but also for spending the time with diane montagna for this book calming this storm navigating the crisis facing the catholic church and society we're going to provide our audience our viewers with the information they need to order this book but i do predict that in the year 2022 this will be one of the way runaway religious bestsellers but more than selling well this is going to do a lot of people a lot of good and thanks be to god for all of that efforts you know that's what i've admired in diane's work so far as a journalist her book with bishop schneider she's such a love of the church that she dedicates her energies to studying and preparing so well in order to bring forward people like bishop schneider now myself um this is the age of the laity you know that's something i think we have to understand i think we do just by reality but that's part of divine providence so we should rejoice in that yeah my closing thought this is the age of the laity but it's the age of a laity clergy partnership the likes of which we haven't seen and again looking back on luke 24 why would he spend the most of the day with clopas and an unnamed friend two apparent lowly laypeople you know and only at the end of easter sunday does he go back to our first pope and the hierarchy first shall be last yeah and he brings them together you know that's true i love to picture clopas just sharing with peter and the others and they're like you know slack-jawed he went to you first what's your name again you want us to believe that he spent the first day back from the dead with you you know helped our unbelief you know but jesus averts any division by showing up in time to bring them together and i think that's what is happening in a hundred and one different ways and i hope it becomes a thousand and one so i want to thank all of you for joining us for this podcast uh the road to emmaus i also want to invite you to not only share the podcast with your family members and friends but also share a link to this book calming the storm navigating the crisis facing the catholic church and society father gerald murray in conversation with diane montagna published by emmaus rhodes and coming out first thing in the year 2022 until next time may the lord bless you and would you be the one who blesses me sure the lord be with you and with your may almighty god bless you the father and the son and the holy spirit amen glory to god [Music] you

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Published: Tue Feb 01 2022