Justice Clarence Thomas visits HLS

slow add Pacific Justice says he wants to quit while you're ahead but no I it is my tremendous delight as Dean to welcome here to campus Justice Clarence Thomas we will have a conversation and this conversation is presented as the herbert while Yvonne lecture gonna say a word about mister von and then a word about are honored guests and turned to questions while Yvonne was a graduate of the school only graduate 1948 he had a 47-year career at the law firm known as Hale and Dorr that later became WilmerHale and he was the go to lawyer for developers and lenders involved in reshaping boston's landscape he was devoted to legal profession two fundamental principles of our legal system and that devotion was outstripped only by his own example as a superb lawyer leader in man a fine judgment he endowed lecture series and he said that we must begin each up these events with a statement to be read aloud to the audience and my predecessor now Justice Kagan agreed and therefore I'm reading the statement blackout this statement is as follows: I Herbert W von have endowed this lecture at Harvard Law School to promote in advance understanding of the founding principles and core doctrines American constitutionalism what Alexander Hamilton said to the americans have his day remains true for americans have every generation and then quoting Alexander Hamilton from the Federalist Papers it seems to have been reserved to the people love this country by their conduct an example to decide the important question whether societies have men are really capable or not %uh establishing good government from reflection and choice or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political concert to sins on accident and force mister von goes on in my judgment the Constitution of the United States is the greatest practical achievement a political science it is a testament to the extraordinary gifts and creativity prudence and high-minded miss possessed by the founders of our nation but you'll be guided inspired by their genius as you meet the challenges up the present-day mister von past away a year and a half ago and I had the good fortune to talk with him many times and I said to him who would you most like to come and be a lecturer in your lecture series and we are very honored to be joined here by his first choice Justice Clarence Thomas was born in pinpoint georgia perhaps no one has ever checked traveled as far in history to become a Supreme Court justice from a childhood at the racially segregated south where he knew what was to be cold and hungry graduate of the College of Holy Cross in Worcester Massachusetts and the Yale law school know his thing is allowed justice thomas turned down his admission to the Harvard Law School heats I think it as I understand it he found the school too large and if I'm right to conservative your with its Pete he then began his career in washington II it might be his career %uh following that I working initially I'm the in I an amazing job for the then attorney-general love Missouri %uh john danforth he then worked for Monsanto %uh company and then he became legislative assistant to senator danforth's I'm and then assistant secretary for civil rights in the United States Department of Education and then in 1982 President Ronald Reagan appointed him to be chair up the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission where he became the longest-serving chair President George HW Bush nominated justice thomas to serve on the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and as followed by nomination and confirmation to his current post at the United States Supreme Court where he has served since 1991 justice thomas is beloved by his colleagues on the courts recent members of the court who shall go nameless have told me that no one there has been more welcoming and supportive and no one has a better sense of humor it brings me enormous pleasure and joy to welcome you here justice thomas and I'm gonna ask you a couple questions if that's alright you want to comment on your views about Harvard or no way we leave that aside well first serve all thank you all for taking time out your day after London Paris to to drive you all out on after 'em first semester grades came out you know someone asked me today about how I felt after the first semester law school with my game plan was an ives told him I was just glad to be a survivor but I think this I'm I was not one of those students whose assorted the win was under my wings and just hoping not to take a nosedive so I'm its I I'm very pleased to be here and I'm delighted that you all would take time out your day to the spend apart ever job with me and I'm I hope it's worth while on in the answers that I give to the questions and I release some %uh view i'd started this morning with a breakfast with some students and I have to say the day has been consistent with their breakfast it was absolutely delightful students were bright the energetic they were engaged in zigzag be what I would have expected on but the again I'm just simply delighted that you would take time out be here thank you which tell us a little bit about your childhood a about your schooling experiences about your life as a young person actually you know when I look back on my life I have a good life it had its challenges but the every time I go back to Georgia I'm very very happy I grew up in Georgia and a good time Georgia anybody alright rather not many of us around but the I'm the people I grew up around the course the times were difficult but the the environment I was in the cocoon I lived in was just fabulous I'm very pleased with the nuns you know I mentioned to some students recently they were bemoaning the fact that our education was somewhat compromised in the south and I was just saying maybe a was in some ways but when I got out of high school I have three years the Latin two years a German two years of French and and you have physics chemistry mathematics cetera but at the there was a a real push and all the schools i went to to be well-educated and course we all I didn't grow up speaking at home standard English so that was always a challenge in the took some years to to to make sure that I did that but the desire to learn you know when I got what I think back I reflect back where did that come from the desired re to to see different things and actually came from a segregated library in 1955 I went over we'd lived in the lane across the street and one the very common tenements and librarians had a program in the basement they were reading children's books and one of the series they were reading with these doctor Seuss books I've never heard of it and I thought that was the most amazing things that they were all these things in this book so we would go over that would be the summer 1955 in I think if I have to point to a moment that said to me there is something between those covers it would have been that moment and that would for years after that I made many many trips to that library in Savannah and I met a young woman today from Savannah so she would know where it is on East Henry Street and I had an opportunity years later long before I went to the court to right those ladies in that library and thank them for the gift they gave me I don't think they need you what they had given me and I don't think that nuns exactly what they've given me but that love and and I'm sure each review has said it has an experience similar somebody along the way who called you side in gave you that sort of affinity for learning that is stuck with you and it certainly for me it started in 1955 so when I think I've my education I think I've having been given a gift by some people who really cared about on a young kid who lived in an environment that was mostly uneducated I that finally there was a value on education that was different I grew up with people who would not let her people mostly from couldn't read it all they would was not uncommon when someone was signing something they would simply make their mark or they would take your word for it or they would be upset if you asked them to sign a contract because there were was the contract so in that environment these people my relatives my neighbors treasured education in a way that a person who's hungry would treasure food they understood it in a different way something that they never had a chance to have so it was it was truly something important so they encouraged me to be that way and they always my grandfather who always made us work and he wouldn't let us play sports and I was a pretty good athlete but he wouldn't let us play sports he thought that was foolishness any leisure in his mind was foolishness but the always allow me to go to the library and that would carry over to the the Savannah public library when that was desegregated in the nineteen sixties I would take habit of going to the library to Savannah public and that has continued so my education actually if I have to characterize it was having been taught the love of learning and the joy up being educated by people who were not in people who cared you've had probably more varied jobs then just about anyone who's ever served on the court and your legal jobs included work at legal aid even before you were a lawyer while you were a law student you work to with a civil rights for mint in Georgia E the year your work for the state attorney general you practice criminal in tax law worked at Monsanto a and Department education the EEOC as you think about your career which jobs did you find most rewarding which for most a challenging how would you advise students as they think about jobs when you think about I'm what what did it take to get where you are now did were any of these steps that you thought were taking you someplace in particular have you reflect on those jobs those those careers well let me start by saying that I didn't think anything was taking me any place I'm you know when you don't have a model for what will happen max you just do what's in front of the queue it reminds you when the switch to work in the fields that you this row after endless road I've menial work in that Sun so you never look down the down the row you go from Bush to Bush and you learn how to internalize that discipline to do things I had no idea where it would lead where anything Woodley arm as I've said too others I simply did my best and others can be cynical about it but you know the it the I knew if nothing else the you learn in the particularly 10 the terrible things about bigotry in racism or any of the negative isms in our society is that it takes the whole about a few and it takes the desire were the will too hope your you're scared to hope because you don't want one more dream dashed you know those of us there the this is this is sort of a little example but I think it's illustrative the point I'm trying to make I'm in those who in this room who for example as little kids lost a father or didn't just just didn't care about him or something after a while you stop wondering if they're gonna show up for Christmas you can't allow yourself to think about UK up allow yourself to hope for something at Christmas or your birthday similarly when you art the in the position that we're in you couldn't hope to to to that that would all work out so when I left jail and I didn't take the job in Savannah civil rights for my now is married student loans a kid and I need a job so I allowed myself to hope think that meant something to help gone to yale to done well in school and so then its rears its head again so I can't say that I had the stream most I could do was get up every day and do it my grandfather said and that's putting one foot in front of the other and it became us endless series of putting one foot in front of the other and I can look back in retrospect and connect the dots but I will be not telling you the truth not be less than candid if I said to you I knew ahead of time where it was all leading I did not I was doing it because this is what I was supposed to do and maybe it felt like swing across the ocean or something this is what I was supposed to do I suppose to as my grandfather said get up every day one foot in front of the up did you like appearing in court I the now I I'm especially as a defendant I'm just getting I goods I the I am not I've my personality is not such that I enjoy public appearances arm I tend to be more on the introverts I'm access tend to be quite introverted and I it is very difficult to to do those sorts of things but I did them I remember my first experience in court course I did like a lot of us at Yelp that I avoided things like trial practice and moot court on the I show up in Missouri I was sworn in as a member the Missouri Bar on September 14 1974 September 17 1974 I made my first appearance before the Supreme Court in Missouri ok I argue a case that I did not brief and that's the way it would go for the next two and a half years a briefing in are you in cases and traveling across the state and filing petitions and defending state tax commission and the state department revenue so the I didn't like it anymore denied liked school are or latin but it was required to do the job and that's what I did but on I could go a lifetime without making public appearances or without going to court justice thomas and I are both fans have a book by a harvard law grad called quiet by Susan Cain which is about being introvert anyone here an introvert don't be shy no I I'm and so I one thing that you might be interested to know is that her research indicates that introverts often bring qualities to leadership and two analysis that are very very valuable and we are therefore even more grateful to you for being here today I you are one of the very few people I ever who is served in all three branches of government how do you compare the legislature the executive branch a the judiciary I how do you think about their relationship and how do you think about being in one in having served in the others I like being a judge a lot better on the I A enjoy the OC I like the people very much liked our mission we tried to make it all work I did not like politics I don't like the the this sort of the Norway's around that job because it didn't it didn't comport with what we were actually doing arm I but I enjoyed the people in monthly enjoyed what we were trying to accomplish arm I enjoyed the legislative branch but that I there's too much compromising in back and forth in I don't understand politics and made my head hurt it was like new math I just didn't understand on the and I don't like I've never been political and that's inside and I don't get involved in that sort of thing is that outta my into its it's really out of my area I don't understand being on the bench I lot the DC Circuit I really enjoyed the DC Circuit I'm the I like the people there I tend to get along well with people and I like the people there I don't like the work I can stay there but I think I get maneuvered into this job I and then I had a really bad interview and I somehow or I'm going to use this follow Nancy Reagan's advice if they nominated just say no I but I'm you know it I like the people you know this job its really it's quite different from the court of appeals job I think the best part of people I worked with over the last 21 years there's not a person that I did not like working they were quite different I I enjoy it doesn't matter you know you hear people talk about who do you agree with well I mean they're people I do don't like I agree with in life but the people at the court we've been enormously fortunate not only have they been capable and engaged i sat next to ruth ginsburg that you cannot say she is not enormously capable what a delightful person to to work with Elena Kagan who just showed up exact same thing you know you know you say to her you know it's going to be a joy disagreeing with you for years I I but you wind up making each other better I don't think you make each other better simply by agreeing with each other you make each other better by sharpening the arguments by making people respond by making people think by making the counter-argument you also don't make people better with insulting opinions or negative things are at Harmons you engage the argument in what you find it court is some love them the most wonderful phone calls you get are from people who disagree with you on that particular case because they saw an argument they hadn't thought up and now they have to respond to it and you do the same thing you say to them I think that's a good point you made Ruth I have to give it some thought and that's when you know you're growing as a judge in one thing one of my colleagues at recently is very fun the for I he said very close friends a weather said she makes all of us a better job or better judges I agree with that one hundred percent so it is not the agreement it's the way they do their job and I think you learn that you start in school learning that that how do I disagree with people who are fundamentally different from me whose opinions are different for me to write yelled to ice cream do I raise my voice or do I engage them constructively one things I demand that my law clerks is that we work corporately as I'm law in my chambers all four law clerks work on everything that's pretty cumbersome but I said look we don't run one cylinder at the time we go together and I require I don't hire jerks on in anyone other reasons I don't want that bad attitude in my chambers because what is required we are very hard things to do they're very strong opinions there are disagreements and I need people to disagree in a way that move things forward not did not disagreeable and disruptive or think that they have the gospel and everybody else out just a mere floor opinion so I think you learn it early on how do you conduct your cell with others with whom you may or may not agree who might have a slightly different opinion worry much much different opinion and I think you see it reflected the court you see it I saw it on the court of appeals I thoroughly enjoyed working with the people at the court the current composition be justice o'conner who I think it was fabulous chief justice rehnquist our love them the courts different now but no less on a decent and good place to work you know it is known as Chad remarkably collegial court right now and with friendships and your name comes up over and over again is someone who everybody just like so much and helps to build that sense a collegiality why don't they vote with me I of I they just kindly disagree for him how it's just that up you know the the you notes people say you know why don't we have more the why do we have so many 54 opinions this because the other guy's name join us I are we will join them I don't know which way it is but it's just it it is a wonder it is indeed a wonderful place to work and I must say said she was here's your predecessor that Justice Kagan is just a delight to have their just at the light teller we miss ur now you told me that you have lunch together as as as members of the court but you have some rules about when you talk about don't talk about no business I their jokes there's music sports books that people are reading but no business and I think the room for that is it's enough to retire and you come from conference and it never ends with chief justice rehnquist did not want to extend the conference he wanted people to simply get to know each other and so it is I would you know and and two decades it is actually a very interesting large and I'm win we lost just a suitor up to the north country up and we lost a wonderful man then elegant storyteller so if you can invite him and haven't else from the store as he is a wonderful wonderful Cali and if you see him tell him we miss him a lot but he yet great stories and people had this interfere miss this very supportive reserve New England there but he he was hopeful variously funny I and just as briar who sits now isn't sitting next to me for two decades also just a funny man he as this habit during arguments up drawing stick figures but and he makes the stats show you your always has he always has something going on item the be quite monastic my approach the things that he's bouncing around here are a few needs and I he's always got an idea and the shares them with me on the bench is this but it's just a on and absolute delight to sit with them but the do see you too juggling the always yet certain areas that needed you know he's very very smart but he's sort of a moving around smart and i'd to move you I tend to be someone I lock into something I want to think it through for a long time and he likes to move around and I saw the Raman every so often what about things I said what about the Stephen you pop up and ask a question said Steve is just something throwing yeah I so you blames love those been provided as a hostess asking what do you think about sleep justice thomas you started to explain how you organize the work in your chambers are you work with the clerks tell us more mean you participate in this in the cert pool and some people here don't know what that is but happy ok you %uh defied to work between reviewing the applications for review versus the merits cases and and do you read the briefs in hardcover or do you read them in in online and and it just how do you do the work how much to do in the office and how much elsewhere just give us a flavor of that well one the things about jobs it's portable and thank you know up goodness for technology it's me it's more even more portable now but I am who wanted things when I arrived at the court there was not as much technology and chief justice rehnquist was not really all that interested in these devices called computers and that internet and you could so every rabies as I said Chief you know we're gonna have to automate he said well you're your you chair the committee then so the ruler bears if you make a suggestion be willing to do the work so I mean we're quite automated not know actually wasn't because it means cuz I stayed outta the way but I'm the I work very closely with my law clerks my view is that got the smart kids there and they will all work together and we will work as a team so the I do my own I do sir petitions like son they always do my whom review poo memos on the weekend so when I go in on Mondays when I was when I headed this way on Monday I gave it to police officer to read to return to the court but I always is usually several hundred but I don't have my spot but that you got it Justice White said when I came to the court class you gotta have a routine you've got to get a system you gotta do it and so you get a routine and you stick with that's what some people don't like changes you you know you've got to have a real so much work but you've got to get it done a certain time get on top of so many cases you 1000 Papa filings last you gotta move through man I've gone through virtually everyone for 21 years and you you so you get a system you know what you're looking for I do that on Sundays and on this was a man sitting week so it's it's relatively easy there's no pressure them arm with with reviewing cases I have never signed a single case in my entire tenure I tell my locker ex what I hire them everybody here's an adult this is not a day care center you don't see KinderCare appear RB the I heart adults and everyone is to conduct themselves as adults or himself or herself as an adult and so they assign it to themselves 91 here whining and complaining that I have too much to do and we have certain rules about distribution work the rules that I lay out before the term a really quite simple I have 0 excuses zero-tolerance for tardiness mistakes and excuses you take your whining elsewhere and I expect everybody to be up and running when the term starts know there's no time for start-up than that sounds pretty harsh but hey that's life that we have stuff to do also give people a chance to back out above the clerkship after we lay down the rules the arm it's it's a pretty my wife that were that's a really nice welcome at you laid out but I think it's just it's on us and pretty candid about without my expectations are and then when I go in the kids start they the do the bench memos the states this on themselves a cases and every clerk has to be prepared in every case so we have what we call I read the briefs on my own I just do i do hard copy from traveling a dude on the job um on the good reader on on the iPad the arm but mostly I like to just sit in my chair at home and read them on on in the afternoons or late at night so the we have clear conference for every case the clerk who has a lead makes presents the others offer their opinions why do you agree do you disagree why why clerks always Gophers I don't want to pre-empt them with my own personal opinions and bats in the with if we're sorry the opinion the clerk who has a lead draft the unit does initial dryer then we have structured rounds about its its is built into our manual that came from my early years I've getting a lot of really mushy for straps and having to cut down really bad long opinions and I thought well this that make any sense so we are opinions are refined and them I always make always do the final round sometimes you up this on big brown once part of our packet is we havin outline which we call a disposition memorandum up for the disposition a every case so you start you just literally here's how we will dispose of this case and we have a preliminary before oral argument and then we finalize that it's always an outline form so it's about where you would start MSA or even you would start a research project without my that's what we've that's what we and up with after our conferences and after argument and reviewing the breeze and it is then that is then the beginning with together with the notes from conference that is the outline for a draft opinion so but there's a process for you don't you suddenly wake up in here it is there's a process for and thats every single case and that's gone on now for almost 20 years so you have like history of what we the approach that we took NY and how we we find that so once the opinions drafted them and I've made the final at its then we circulate now we do most so that I do my virtually every better my editing online or at least in in the in track changes which is very quick in get that allows just like you I do most of the reading at the draft on on on the computer and I work on the computer very high tech no i think im pretty low-tech but arm my clerks insisted on my doing it that way I because it is easier it's because I can emails or and I don't no matter where I am I can email at it so I can be in Georgia I can be I in Europe ike could be here i mean i logged on this morning before I came over you couldn't handle a lot of matters very quickly and and clearly securely I don't know what securing more but I'm it it's goes through secure VPN so see to approach constitutional cases any differently than statutory administrative cases arm you know yes I'm statutory cases a candid tend to be pretty straightforward for the most part administrative law cases they have their the ambiguities but you know you do you its it's fairly I think you you read tax-paid I you sneak a peek at legislative history I up you know why don't you know that looking a legislative history just that movie grant still it's wise that my head you know where he says that he's invited as parties about what would I wear I know why that's in my head out but but at any rate be I'm be I do I think that the the constitutional cases a little bit harder it wouldn't come to you if they were either their heart I this look at my here I was left up but I it's alright I in you you you there are some of these things you just don't wanna see a penny more it's like let me how to you regrets third on it you know I'm em when we were doing the the were cases those or really really hard cases and the I guess I a you sometimes get a little disappointed the way people talk about them is there are you for this are you for that and you just run it use aim a methodology I think professor free freed was talking in his class today about these various interpretive models which I thought was really interesting because you know you sit there and you trying to use existing precedent to handle something that's different and what model do you use would approach to use and so yes they they tend to be fairly fairly difficult and it does matter which one you choose they're saying this is use the same as students today that it do you know that you can disagree with the moms but you gotta do something gonna have some motive analysis are there any particular experiences or writers or ideas or models that are most influential and how you approach your tap well actually the best advice I got was from larouso matzo grumman on the sober man on DC Circuit another Harvard graduate whether all around me and I'm surrounded the court by Harvard grads but the he said when I became a district judge she said on I just he said I won't tell you how to decide cases but here's some advice I give you that you project the case with this question how would I decide what is my role in this case as a judge and that was probably the best advice I've got not as a service and not as an activist just as a judge in that has been a very important piece of advice probably for me the opinion that I read for inspiration is certain plessy I the I turn to it's made me very far founder the first Justice Harlan I'm the notions express met opinion were the things that those of us in so even learned that way I'll held onto in the south and I would I was very I am pleased to hear that was justice marshall's absolutely favorite opinion years later but the notions there were things that made it that said when all else was going one direction this was something that was was headed the right direction so I i think that that would more than any other and the honesty in there were I think it's on this where he says his views on matters of race is that whites will be superior for all time but and the constitution knows no KS was no color so I just sit that would be my favorite want two things as exceptional about that opinion is you know many people's it try to excuse the majority saying you just have to remember what time would that what people thought the times the fact if his opinion and how we move it shows that is no excuse you know he was the only southerners sat on that in the from the I think he understood the that was a fundamental wrong yes and there isn't you need in the social science and you don't you can excuse it but I'm all these other things that came out but that was just fundamentally wrong in something you grow up in bed in you that this is wrong so but anyway that's my that's my I would have to say that is my best model what what makes for effective advocacy before the court or survival of my colleagues I up oh that was a slip northward in don't you to me on them but a.m. the arm you know I think I go back to a constant theme in mind I look I've been doing this a long time someone comes up with some shrewd argument you know we've its ever heard of those before I think honesty I think from candor you know I'm number one technical issues when I argued was if I didn't have the law I would always admit it some I'm but you can go you have to say look the law i'd people come to the court may say this case an opinion you just throw covers us like a glove well and why do we grant sir I whether we grant sir will not grant certain say this covered like a glove I that the summary rivers or some reaffirm so obviously at so you wouldn't say that so what you say is that the logic love that case get you there I mean that's candidate it this doesn't quite get you there but the logic and then you explain I think Anders really important not people may set up there and they may not you may not think they're smart as you are but assume they can go to somebody as smart as the advocate the I think there were they've been a few times since I have been when people have been quote less than candid with the court that becomes a topic of conversation at lunch in less than candid with the court their is no advocate who wants the court to say he or she has been last then handed I've the quarter you're done you're done people are looking at US camps from then on the I think you come up your honest your borrowing your work and your key and that your honest on the I think that the it for for advocacy before the court thing it requires a certain flexibility because you gonna get pummeled I don't know how people do it these days but I think you gonna get pulled back and forth so there's a certain flexibility but I think the candor and the honesty is in the thoroughness so far more important that certainly in the briefs because I think most the work is done in the breeze yes of course the car record is described as a hot bench I don't know what that means a their maybe that many of the justices interrupt each other with their questions well I mean that's just the way it is I mean I don't like it that way but that's you know I'm nobody's bus does it help or hurt it doesn't help in my opinion I do understand that it was chief justice burger who had the architectural suggestion to at least have the the bench curve so people can see each other and before each other top talk so there's maybe a little less interrupting and looked and I i think im gonna pass on that alright IQ not agree with I think it's unnecessary deciding cases that's that many questions and I don't think it's helpful I think it is to I think we should listen to lawyers who are arguing their case and I think we should allow the advocates to advocate what's the most challenging part of your job our loss of anonymity that's not that's the hardest part I am the it's not I mean deciding cases that's my job I'm the loss of them me what's your favorite part of the job by law clerks I love my law clerks and the I like my colleagues I am but I really love my law clerks been my kids good not in there my kids become my family they I spent a lotta time up with them I demand a lot from them they work a lot of hours they're really really good kids are extremely smart I'm I coat each with one my former law clerks at George Washington University now greg matheson I love it I mean I wouldn't do is my kid he's won by I just look at him is now older than I was when he clerked for me I just love being with my law clerks it just sorta like your offspring and they're really really good kids with different personalities I love being a part of their lives I have monthly reunion with my former law clerks monthly luncheon arm I just really I think these kids are what I would like to have been like if I was more engaged in law school when been if I had an opportunity clerk I mean you're close to justice marshall I just think it's just it's a wonderful par the job I also enjoy my lot my colleagues very much I like them very much and finally with respect to the job I like the idea that I get to live up to my old I took an oath and every day I've gone in my job and my clerks jobs help live up to that oath and I try to live up to it beyond that I don't arm there's but there's not you know I can't say that I'm it whether it's like or dislike: I just do my job just got asked to request an invite I some questions from you all core your heroes my grandfather my grandmother the people I grew up with but still I've met a lot of people I've met every living president some those who pass read about a lot a great people but I there's nobody greater my grandfather on how an unlettered man raised by freed slave reason part by freed slave was not bitter was had the foresight to raise these kids in when it when he didn't have to was responsible when people have excuses for not being responsible grew up with dignity in the south the denied committee arm the admiration I have a bus him over looking me in the office in is one of his favorite sayings oh man can is that I helped bury him so I just have undying admiration for my grandparents so a there are others I admire the people I admire justice marshall particularly for his work across the south that the COLLADA got you got us on those grounds I admire the judges and sell I admire my nuns who left Ireland in Cayman educated these kids and Georgian and believe them us and didn't go preaching at actually did it so I mean there lotsa people I admire people who do I admire I wanna be armed my law clerks who graduated from Harvard men one of them the mother teresa's orphanages for a year and then went on the Yale Law School was just a good person admire that I had my wrists are young woman's morning what's your name happen happen I admire her the I admire that can encourage in that kinda goodness in the person so there there and I mean you people think that the people you my mouse with ease people who are well-known I think most people I admire art that well no and the pearly Carteret New Haven legal assistance to the two timeouts you live in the projects on Dec of pics well I haven't to time to school me and she was a you again someone who lived in the project that more wisdom then so many people I many many leaders I've met so a but I could go i mean there are many more but I'm not gonna go through the whole list but you get the idea powerful yes my last question is what advice would you give to people currently in law school advice about their school schooling about their careers about being the kind of person that you know you really inspire me a person who really cares about integrity about the values about respect what advice would you give well you know i'd I'm old fashioned I think that I still believe in the old Virtusa being kind and being good to people being positive being on there's a lotta reasons to be negative in society I can find like I was as telling that the mean that I was out here I being in 1970 and because I was mad at the world and the that was negative that was cynicism and negativism eating me up a true animosity and I felt justified because of all the race issues I was really upset how do you let that go how do you say I'm not gonna despite harm treated I'm not going to be that way I'm gonna be a good person I'm try to be a good person it's kinda fallen on de for years these days or so old-fashioned to say you should just be virtuous you should try to treat people the way you want to be treated you try to do your best you help people who need help you put you prepare so that you can be helpful one-line I like to use with younger people is simply them you do well so you keep be in a position to do good I and the if you can't do well now you can't do good later and I don't know what you and I don't we talk a lot about ideology in politics & these Mac growing global issues I think a lot of things are are you treat your neighbor one of the things I look for when I see people is that what other treat the least among us the people who work in the cafeteria the people who work on the elevator the cleaning people the people in the hotel and that person that's not a good person treats these people badly that's not a good person I would never hire anybody jerk like that there's no way so why Zafar not a fashion I think you you treat people the way you want to be treated your Dr Reddy's smart you wouldn't be miss meagher you take your your business here you don't feel entitled The because I have the Harvard imprimatur that suddenly it's over now it's just beginning but that worked hard to develop those arm those habits that lead to the leadership that you want some love you may believe that homelessness is a problem will do well and solve it some %uh view mabel believe that we need to deliver legal services to the poor well do well and deliver it some love you may believe in a different motive constitutional analysis will do well and make the argument so decide the cases you know I just encourage you at but most about just try to be artist rather be good people but do well do well in your turn will come Sumant soon enough I was thinking I was doing the math in my mind I wound up on the court seventeen years after I graduate seventeen years when very fair and I'm made my final payments on my student loan my third term on the court I so good luck I is there someone would like to ask a question a short one would you gust and a baby come to my to mind doing that and you can say your name yes I'm Elie Arama too well thank you so much for coming on that so I thought the advice that you received from just silverman's very interesting and I was wondering um if you at any point I felt Warren where you know if you've been a situation where you felt that I'm the a stance that you were to take you know based on your role as a judge conflicted in some way I'm with you know your own feelings and where you felt uncomfortable taking a stance as a citizen as a person arm the let's say there were some challenges particularly early on in the evenin some recent cases where if I could do but I wanted to do I would do some do things differently and I think they'd be surprising to some but I'm young you constrained by case it's been you know over you know long enough go 20 over twenty years ago by the haitian refugee cases are among those those I was mourn with those because I've what it meant but you wind up having have the discipline to do your job and that's pretty hard in once you ceased being a judge I can you demand that others be the judge and not saw reviews the law to I'm impose their own personal preferences it's very difficult it's less difficult now but it's of no less painful when you can't do something where you think that something is wrong expects question I have more so I'm bingo ago sure come on over identify yourself hello I justice thomas I didn't know my name is our on I'm A 10 I my question is do you think it's a disadvantage for the court to have all harvard and yale law graduates in oh well I get in trouble if I say they're yeah but trouble being my middle main no I I don't think it's necessarily bad but I think it would be good to have some of the others too is this I don't think it's bad that we have people from one part of the country but I think I'd be better if we had people from other parts on the I think it is i their different points of views out here and I think we should be there really good smart people in some of the other schools you know for example have a clerk this year from Berkeley I'm not a smart people in Berkeley on this smart yet and this my people at Stamford at least that's what they tell me I the you see them they're smart people kids at Georgia or I'm Louisiana State LSU mind that Miley locker twice he was from LSU she's really smart IMF if I see you're in fighting the bear out going up the bear cassini I could tell you see as of as males and smart but arm I I don't think it's a problem I think would be better if we understood their other schools too justice thomas you've spent much of your career in public service oh my goodness and the dole hut what would you say are are the gratifications UHV serving the nation you know I don't know I this is my job I I as i said the kids today I was arm I want to be a priest and I don't think you ever get over wanting to be a breeze but you would in that and I don't mean like saying my ass or anything like that I mean you always looking for a vocation with my call to do and that's why I went to Georgia why I went to law school to return the Georgia thought I was called to return home and to lead same thing I said to to the young people here that is to you do well to do good and that in pay and I'll but are you wind up being in public service I made a decision in 19 when I turned thirty years of age a that I would never take a job for money that I would always be free I would never focus on money but I needed money I didn't have any money meant a lot of empty apartments and beat up cars on and and no vacations and things like that but what it freed me to do with things I believe that it always gave me the liberty to say what I thought because I was never working for money I never work for promove when I was the EEOC I had this rule I wouldn't put any pictures on the wall because people got fired a lot in these administrations to serve the pleasure to president so always told my staff that I'd like to be able to so the rule was that the president called you on Friday afternoon and expressed great confidence wink wink was time for you to leave so you were fired always wanted to be in a position to be outta there in 10 minutes so I would never put a any photos on my wall and I never wanted to be focused on any job so I'm never are truly made my day I mean I just did my job and I fully make fully expected to be right on Washington I expected to be fired at some point and I have no idea why was it but I think you know I was grateful to be allowed to do my job arm but I think not being focused on money imposition freed me to do what I believed in so I've been fortunate throughout my life no matter what job had to do exactly what I believe them you were not only the longest-serving chair of the equal Employment Opportunity Commission you made it fully disability accessible workplace I give a lot of that credit to my chief staffers now Marshall the court I'm we did a lot of things we automated we did a lot of things to make it an organization but I give allow that credit to the people there aren't they understood computers they understood how to build systems and when we went to we wanted I I fully believe how can we talk about all the sort of are theoretical issues when their people can't get in front door the building so the what we did was we made sure that was not gonna happen people have a right to show be able to come and do their jobs in so we took care that I'm on yossi in I believe very strongly about that one of my best friends was quadriplegic and I watch now a two inch per was like Great Wall of China for you and I about this is back when I first got law school about it never never what I be in charge of something where he could not or someone could not be permitted to be a part of it and there are lots of things I think we do that with the opinions we write we write them in a way that they were inaccessible to the average person and and so what I tell my walk towards as we write these so that they are accessible to regular people that doesn't mean that there's no law it but the language their ways just simple way things to put important things in language that success about so the the is I say to them the beauty the genius is not to ride a five-cent idea in a ten dollar sentence is a put a ten dollar idea and a five cent since wins thats beauty bats everything that's writing so the editing is we we do is for clarity and simplicity without losing meaning encounter and without adding things that you don't see a lot of double entendres or you don't see word plays in cuteness and the opinions we're not there to win a literary award were there to write opinions that some busy person or somebody kitchen-table can read and say I don't agree with the words that but I'm then your sometimes the were all statements that you and your colleagues will give in announcing an opinion are in more simple language than the published opinion sometimes I it's made me think that sometimes the oral statement is what we ought to have printed well I think were trying to communicate to the audience lose my mind really go no graphic way that's me has been gone a long time for the I'm I think they were right in the in statements in the courtroom we announce opinion it's for the audience and so people are trying to make it ecclesial accessible but I think we can do the other opinions that way to without losing any other meaning and the I forget the gentleman who is the author works with just scalia lot but he's the author Black's Law Dictionary garner guard Bryan garner he yes me once he said why's that your opinions I think he said 25 percent shorter on average the new Cali I had no idea without a follow-on i'm following me the stuff and he said I said I think I would say it's Aditi editing editing adding we do on lot vetting and its very aggressive editing so we cut we eliminate a lot of trivial lot of nonsense from the opinions and I do not like you miss in my opinion you know they save it for your own stuff the effect with it is all meat and potatoes that's pretty harsh and ice and serve them one more question it can you come to Mike sir ok everybody had a you okay moment well due to will do too go ahead you go ahead you're right there thank you for coming justice thomas my name's david has been done 30 and I wanted to ask given what you're talking about with varied backgrounds and the clarity opinion we use to appoint a lot of politicians to the court in and I think right now on the court we basically only have one non-politician and everyone else is served as a judge for some portion it I'm do you think that has like inhibited the clarity and the ability to communicate to the nation and that we've created even more complex analogies as a result of that would you be in favor of appointing people to the court who come from different backgrounds that are not judicial nature by are from aspects aside either ball oh absolutely why not i mean but remember we've had courts like that I think it's cyclical justice white was never judge justice o'connor was state court judge justice Kagan's never judge arm so I dot chief justice rehnquist was never a judge so I think it's I think it's fairly cyclical I was a judge for two minutes I I was there long enough that it was really odd as in DC Circuit I ordered my furniture and its you know it takes a little while I'm not being in the furnitures that you got a cheer fine with good are you if you'll need a new desk or anything you know you not just get the guys in this you'll admit I'm good but the sofa furniture finally shows up him it's got a tag on it and they nominate me the Supreme Court I and so I always thought there was a conspiracy to get my furniture for I really hadn't been there that long so you get really think you can put in low asterisk next to me as a former judge chief justice that was a judge very long below astor's makes the AM so the I you know I do think there's merit to just like it said about school i think is merit to getting people from I all sorts of from different backgrounds in different parts of the country why not a state court went on state Supreme Court why not Minnesota you know I just think there's all sorts of people you can get that's what I try to do with a higher law clerks I like to have some my wife's at my locker to like United Nations I like having some other everybody I like every it is absolutely fabulous it is everybody agreeing I don't want that what people look at things differently maybe the court would be you don't wanna reasons that was great having people from the west have you ever thought where you from Virginia ok eight so states like Virginia don't have this problem states like Georgia don't have this problem when you get out west water is the problem in the water issues are key well for those of us on the east coast they say we don't have water will draw well good you know where you got a mile apart from you use but even the South it was like 10 feet we are all the water we need so the having justice o'conner I justice why people from the West they understood all those issues and brought it a sort of a base knowledge to the court that was very helpful and informative know you the fact that you worked a in-house for a company i think is an important a insight for the for the court and they have people who've you have seen business well you know I would like to take credit and I i really I know you offer that in the spirit of generosity but I was so low on the totem pole I wonder how much I can bad I was really a low-level attorney and I wish I had had more access but I think that the job I would be overstating my important stuff I'd accepted that can complement I probably brought more from them on problem from on the age the attorney general's office and from on the hill them from the EEOC where I was actually more engaged last question I miss yes thanks for coming Eric Wright some a two-out I'm you spoke what is beginning about starting with doctor seuss the importance of books in your life and then about the sort have clear concise writing you want your opinions and black ft yes so as well if you could talk a bit for a minute about them the important writers & books at you admire have been influenced by wow that's really interesting you know i'd want to say I've read so much Paul John cepeda added a whole lot yeah I'm the in the a.m wow that's really a good question I'm did I want to go to people like faulkner and them but that would be elusive I'm being I've read a lot of Economics is goes awry I don't know that's a really nobody's ever asked me that you know I read a lot about books but its i'd never its I don't read them for the style that I use I'm that's really a good quick I have to give that some thought I have the part on that and go back and think I read a lot but the books along and some really kinda boring but is really impressed from me euros it's sort of funny you have the stack of things that my wife's as you are eclectic I read a lot I I really enjoy reading and but I can't bank other offer that I who style I follow that's really thats cats you've caught me I you know what if I said something like I am Harper Lee it's good at it's a good choice yeah you know I but I i really like clarity and could akin trying to think of someone now because most people aren't all that clear when you when you read for leisure if you have any you read lots of history I've read a lot of history at the you know again the have kicked say whether it's economic and economics or work or just I'm on I've really I got on churchill cake a link in cake and get on world Civil War I think you have to understand the Civil War two understand the 14th amendment we do a lot of research arm even when the mcdonnell opinion the go back and look behind the that whole process the debates around the 14th amendment not because that started with a preconceived notion just try to understand but I try to read a lot of history um I used I read a lot of economics on I think it is imperative that or incumbent on us white behooves us to continue to grow in the areas than that's why I like good scholarship as opposed to things that are just vitriolic that the really get scholarship you say you stop yourself what you say I'll I never thought of that it's a really other scholars to be mean you don't agree with you said all I never thought of that and stop you in your tracks and you want to think about it and I'm you know I owe you one I I owe you an answer and I'll please pretty good now but I owe him an answer I've never thought about which authors that I'm I've had to borrow things from so many in life I did stubs someone asked me recently when did I finally become I grew up speaking peachy and our lease in my early life someone asked me when did I finally become comfortable with the English language I said in my thirties and probably run 86 or 87 and that was the years love crossword puzzles and vocabulary building grammar ring very technical and you serve in in me in my graph and following the rules of grammar I in reading again I'm at the I remember reading and ran at sixteen or seventeen reading fountainhead Napa struck just in there take me like 10 minutes 20 minutes to read a page you know the words that look up every word mother still have a little funk and black males that I use covers gone but the sold I can I borrow a lot from a lot of people and I know there's somebody in my mind that I'm was very clear in in his overriding but it doesn't come to mind right now would have been something I don't think I've read resupply would have to have been something I read either in college or shortly after college and it may have been somebody who just wrote briefs I mean I wrote a lot a brief very quickly inside use a very simple clear style you know a lot about it I can't remember right now exactly who it was or boost I like I tried to to follow but I don't think it's anybody famous but if I think about it I owe you one come by now yeah service justice Thomas you have been a.m. so warm and so generous I cannot tell you how thankful we are I we began by quoting Alexander Hamilton via the words I've are wonderful while Yvonne here's another Alexander Hamilton that I thought we'd end on he said those who stand for nothing fall for anything and I think justice thomas you stand for so much and we are so very grateful for the your service to the country in your presence here at Harvard Law School thank you are thank you for your call

Channel: Harvard Law School

Views: 340,158

Rating: 4.7420268 out of 5

Keywords: Harvard Law School, HLS, Justice Clarence Thomas, Dean Martha Minow, U.S. Supreme Court, Herbert W. Vaughan Lecture

Id: heQjKdHu1P4

Length: 71min 50sec (4310 seconds)

Published: Mon Feb 11 2013

Reddit Comments

[u/[deleted]]

really inspirational