[APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank
you, Chief Justice Roberts. So now we come to the
question and answer period of our afternoon. And so here's how I
thought we would do it. Since there are
six of you, I think I'm not going to ask
all of you to respond to each one of these questions,
but I might pose a question and ask one or two
of you to respond. And if others of
you want to jump in, because you find it
particularly interesting, enticing to answer this
question, please jump in. I'm going to cover sort
of three rough areas, and then we're going to
have a lightning round. [LAUGHTER] And so the three areas are
sort of your legal education, and then the next is your
professional development, and then life on the Court. And then the lightning round is
what I hope will be fun facts. OK. So we're going to start, as
we should, with question one. So question-- [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: Good idea. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: So
here's question one. So there are many 1Ls in
the audience and many people who were 1Ls. [LAUGHTER] Including all of you. [LAUGHTER] So what was 1L like for you? Did you like it? [LAUGHTER] How did you feel
about being called on? Socratic method? Any thoughts? All right, so Justice Kennedy? [LAUGHS] [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY:
Well, law professors say, we teach you how to think. My wife was a third
grade teacher. We teach and she teaches
people how to think. [LAUGHTER] The law school--
law school teaches you to think about ordinary
things in a formal way. And after two
weeks of contracts, I went down to Cambridge
Square and Harvard Square, and it said, apples, $0.10. I gave the guy a dime
and took two apples. And he said, no, no, no. I said, well, it said apples. He said, are you
a law school guy? Get out of here. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Sounds
like textualism to me, but-- [LAUGHTER] Thank you. [LAUGHTER] Thank you, Justice Kennedy. Justice Gorsuch, you were most
recently a 1L of any of us on the stage. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
Sitting here today brings back memories
of the first day of 1L. I don't know whether
it's still done, but the Dean addressed the first
year class in this very room. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
It's still done. JUSTICE NEIL
GORSUCH: Still done. Dean Vorenberg, at
the time, followed by Dean Clark, who served
when I was at law school. And I remember that day
very vividly right now. And it's amazing how
quickly the years pass. I was scared to death. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: And how
long did that stay with you? JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: I-- I'll let you know. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Anyone
else have memories of 1L? JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: I got
called on my very first class. I was the first
person in my section who was called on,
by Abe Chayes, who raked me over the coals some. And, of course, I came out,
and I thought, oh, my gosh, I was terrible. And now everybody
knows I'm terrible. But it was the best thing that
happened to me, because it just got it over with quickly. That feeling of like, OK,
the worst has happened, and now I can sit back
and relax a little bit. No, I won't be called on in that
class at least for a few days. But mostly just feel
as though there was was nothing to dread anymore. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
And were you right? JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: [LAUGHS] DEAN JOHN MANNING: OK. I'm going to move
on to a second. [LAUGHTER] I'm going to move
on to question two. So I hope this is not
a compound question. Was there a professor or a
course at Harvard Law School that you particularly loved
or that you found particularly inspirational? Justice Breyer. JUSTICE STEPHEN
BREYER: Legal process. DEAN JOHN MANNING: I knew it! JUSTICE STEPHEN
BREYER: Al Sacks. There it is. I mean, people say that. You want to know what a
Justice of our Court thinks? Ask who his professors were. I found it in that course. That's the way it is. DEAN JOHN MANNING: And was it-- JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: Have
I changed my mind since? Never. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Was it
the course, or the professor, or both? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
No, it's the course. And it is the course,
the reasoned elaboration on the common law side,
the reasonable legislator, a construct, on the
interpretive side. And there it is. And I'd have to list
as a professor combined with a course-- Jack Dawson, Contracts. Great course. Hey, Abe Chayes was pretty good! He gave me the best question
I ever asked in class. Wonder what it is? [LAUGHTER] On the last day, and I
got through with my-- JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY:
See what we go through? [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: OK. At my antitrust class, I
think I was teaching, he-- I got mine. He had his daughter
when she was seven. And Chloe came to the
back of the class. It was a pretty big class. So we were preparing
for the exam. And you ask some questions
that might be on the exam, and might not, da-da-da. And finally I said,
well, what was-- there was a case involving
restraints on alienation, I think, from 1782. And I said, what was the
year that was decided? And, of course, nobody knew. I said, you're not--
you're prepared for class? And you don't know what
year that case was decided? My god, that's an easy question. A child of seven could
answer that question. Is there a child of seven here? Chloe, I'm a child of seven. [LAUGHTER] 1782. And I left the class. I was in tears. [LAUGHTER] There we go. There we are. That was law school
in those days. I mean, that was-- JUSTICE ELENA
KAGAN: Can I kind of say who my favorite
professor was? It was my antitrust
professor, because you just heard from him. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY: I
had Professor Henry Hart, and he taught at 12 o'clock. We called it darkness at noon. [LAUGHTER] He was a very popular professor
but very difficult. He'd say, and now that principle, it-- no, that can't be. [LAUGHTER] And we'd sit waiting. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Mr. Chief Justice? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
Well, contracts was my favorite course,
because Phil Areeda taught it. And he was my
favorite professor. He was a master of
the Socratic method. Not in the way,
you know, the paper chase, or the grilling
students, or embarrassing them. But he really would engage
you, firmly, not gently. But for the purpose of
getting information out. And he would bring the
whole class into it. It wasn't picking on one
person for the whole day but was jumping around. And it was invigorating. So I think he was a
master of that craft. And it was not an
easy craft to master. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Justice Souter? JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: I guess
I would give a two part answer. The first year, my
first year, was also the first year-- and
respectively of, I think, the third year for two
absolutely superb teachers, who are still teaching. One was Charles Fried, and
one was Frank Michaelman. [APPLAUSE] We knew what we had
with the two of those. With respect to there's
a reason it's a two part question or a two part
answer is that there's a separate category. And that is the category
of the old timers. And sort of the stellar old
timer in my law school years with Paul Freund. [APPLAUSE] I had actually taken a course
with him in the college. And I knew that I wanted to
take another course with him. And one of my great
disappointments was that when I
got to second year, I did not get in his
Constitutional law class. But I had better
luck the third year, because I got accepted into his
seminar, a year long seminar, on Constitutional litigation. And I did not see it
necessarily-- or at all, for that matter-- as sort
of a presage to the future, but it kind of
turned out that way. [LAUGHTER] But he was basically a
source of general culture, as well as the subjects
that he was teaching. You heard as much from Wallace
Stevens and Shakespeare as you did from some judge. And he used to teach by telling
the most wonderful stories. And when you brought
that question up, I thought, gee, I'd like to--
can I tell one of the stories? DEAN JOHN MANNING: Of course! JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER:
It's not too long. But I don't remember what
the occasion for this was in the seminar,
but he told the story about William Howard Taft. And he reminded us, or told us,
that between the time that Taft was president and the
time that he became Chief Justice of
the United States, he taught at Yale Law School. And Taft was a great
lover of college football. And whenever Yale was playing
in New Haven, he was there. He had a season ticket
or actually had more. And Mrs. Taft didn't share his
pleasure, but he went alone. But he, at that time, I
think, weighed 340 pounds, and he couldn't
fit into his seat. So because he was a fair
man, he bought two tickets, because he was
occupying two seats. [LAUGHTER] And Mr. Freund told the
story of Taft's arrival for the game one
day in New Haven. And he got to use his section,
and he handed the two tickets to the student usher. And the usher was perplexed. And he said, but you've
given me two tickets, sir. And he was looking around. And Taft said, well,
yes, that's right. He said, the reason is that
I, in fact, occupy two seats. And I think it's only fair
that I should pay for them. And the usher said,
but, sir, these are on opposite sides of the aisle! [LAUGHTER] And at that point, you
know, Paul Freud took over. And he said, I would
like to think that with Chief Justice Taft's
great negotiating ability that he would have resolved
the problem by turning first to his neighbor on the
right and convincing him to use the left-handed
seat during the first half. And during the
half-time break that he would have turned to
his neighbor on the left and persuaded him to occupy
the seat on the right. And he said, that way, you see,
everyone could see the game, and each one would see it
from a different perspective. [LAUGHTER] And he said, the difference in
perspective and the capacity to appreciate it
is very important. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING: So
apart from the fact that you're all
Supreme Court justices, you've had very
interesting careers. So many of you were
circuit judges. One of you was the State
Supreme Court Justice. Several of you worked in
the Justice Department. A couple of you worked
in the White House. Several of you worked
in private practice. One of you was Chief Counsel
of a Senate committee. Lots and lots of different
kinds of experience. So what was the
professional experience that you had that best prepared
you for the Supreme Court? Justice Breyer? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: I don't
know that this prepares you for the Supreme Court. But I think the thing that
does-- nothing prepares you for the Supreme Court. Harry Blackmun said,
you're going to find this an unusual assignment. [LAUGHTER] But the thing that
I thought in life, when I worked for Senator
Kennedy, in professional life, I learned a lot from him. And I'd say the thing that
sticks most is you often have a choice in life. Do you want the credit,
or do you want the result? And he would say,
credit is a weapon. And listen, when you see
somebody saying something that you can use, listen. What a good idea you have. And then you get together. And then something happens. And if it's good, there's
plenty of credit to go around. And if it's bad,
who wants it, OK? [LAUGHTER] That's what he said. And therefore, it
was the other senator that he'd push out
to the newspaper. That's right. And therefore, he
got the result. And I think whatever
your profession, whatever your profession, if you're going
to work with other people, that was something I
learned and I thought was valuable in whatever
my future career was. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank you. Great. [APPLAUSE] Justice Kagan? JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY: We
used to be called attorneys and counselors at law. When we graduated from the
bar, we shook each other's hand and said, counselor,
counselor, which sounds maybe like a youthful pomposity. But I was a solo practitioner. I had people that had never
been to an attorney before, did some criminal work, and
it was fascinating to me how important the
counseling function was. I still miss it. I can still-- and it taught me
that behind all these cases, they're a real person. And it seems to me, it's
very, very important for us to remember, you
know, all those law books. Holmes said that
the law books are the story of our moral life. And behind every one of those
cases, there's a real person. My office was not far from the
Capitol Park in Sacramento, one of most beautiful
parks in the country. And sometimes
clients would come, and the question is, what will
we do with a criminal charge or with a business problem? And we'd go through it. And if they'd say,
well, what should I do? I'd say take a walk in the park. Come back a half hour later
and tell me what to do. And a few years ago, back in
Sacramento, somebody still came up to me and said, I still
remember that walk in the park. So we have to remember that
the law relates to people. And that's, it seems to me, what
helps me think about the law. [APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Justice
Kagan, what was your-- JUSTICE ELENA
KAGAN: Well, I guess the job I had that most
obviously prepared me for the Court was the job I had
right before the Court, which was Solicitor General. Because all that the
Solicitor General does is think about the Court. And you know, the Court's
procedures, the Court's docket, the way the Court makes
decisions, who's on the Court, how they think,
how they interact. So sometimes it did
seem as though all you did as Solicitor General was try
to figure out how to persuade the nine Justices of the Court. And now I think about how
to persuade eight Justices. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
You're wasting four! [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: But
in a less obvious way, I will say that I think that the
thing that I think about most, in terms of my own
professional background, is actually teaching. Not Deaning, not
scholarship, but teaching. Because a lot of what
we do, when we sit down and we craft opinions,
what we're trying to do is explain really
complicated things to people who are interested,
who want to understand them but don't, you know, but don't
necessarily have that knowledge right then and there. And these are really
complicated concepts, often. And how do you explain
something to people who want to learn
about it, who want to understand why the Court
is doing what it's doing? I think it's a lot like what I
used to do when I would think about preparing for a class. And I would come
into my office, and I would think there
are going to be 100 students sitting out there. And they're smart, and they're
eager, and they're interested, but they don't know a whole lot. And how do I explain all these
complicated things to them? And what I learned when I
tried to do that at Harvard was also what I try to do
on the Court when I sit down and write. JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY:
We write in order to inspire allegiance
to the result. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Chief Justice Roberts? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
Arguing in the Court-- not so much for the
Solicitor General's office but for private clients. I argued about half of my
cases for the government, half for private clients. And I was very proud to
argue for the government. In essence, to stand up in
the Supreme Court and say, I speak for my country. But it was when I was
representing a private party that, frankly, I truly came to
understand what the rule of law was. Because to my right, where the
Solicitor General always was, was the representative of
the most powerful force in the world, the government
of the United States. And I had a client,
whether it was an individual, an
association, a company, and that most powerful
force in the world wanted to do something to my client. And all I had to do was
convince five lawyers that the government did not
have the right to do that. And I won. And it just struck me
that that is amazing, that being able to convince
five lawyers, and the most powerful force in the
world would recede. And that's where
I get a real sense of what people mean when they
talk about the rule of law. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Justice
Gorsuch, you spent a fair bit of time in private practice. What was the most influential
pre-Court piece of your career? JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: Sure. Well, can I-- DEAN JOHN MANNING: Anything. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
A little sideways. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Sure. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: I
want to associate myself with Justice Souter in
recognizing Professor Fried as a major influence. I don't know where he is. [APPLAUSE] He was a generous
teacher, a demanding one, full of stories of public
service, inspiring in that way, and also, a beautiful
philosopher. His book, Right and Wrong,
stands the test of time, for me. I assigned it every year
to my students in ethics at the University of Colorado. So The Lawyer as
Friend, that captures the spirit of our profession,
to me, as well as anything I've ever read. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank you. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: So
to answer your question-- [LAUGHTER] --it's very hard
for me to isolate any one portion of my career. Whether it's having been an
appellate judge for 10 years, which is a little
bit like this job. Though as Justice
Breyer said, this is the most unusual assignment. Private practice,
very important, too, Department of Justice,
all of those things. But if I were to
single out one thing, there's a friend of mine who
teaches at the Oklahoma City University. He's the Dean there, and he was
a professional responsibility scholar as well. And he did a study and found
that most young people-- everything you learn
is great in law school. And it's very important. But we often
imprint very heavily and get our professional
sense of responsibility from the first loss we have. Right? And we take on a lot
of what we learn. And in that, I am the
luckiest man I know. Luckiest man I know. Not only did I have Byron
White, I had Anthony Kennedy. [APPLAUSE] He is rightly regarded as a
model of judicial temperament and civility in our profession
in a time when we need both. And I am very, very lucky
to have started there. So that's my answer
to your question. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
That's a good answer. Very good answer. [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY:
You didn't always do what I told you to do
when you were my clerk. You better start doing it now. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Now,
Justice Souter, you are-- [LAUGHTER] You are the only member of the
panel who served as a State Supreme Court Justice. Do you think your
service on a state court shaped the way you had
thought about your role as a federal judge? The Supreme Court Justice? JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: I
think the answer is, yes, but not probably in the
sense that you had in mind. I think the most
valuable experience that I had as a
State Court Justice-- and for that matter maybe
the most valuable experience preparatory to being on the
suit, the US Supreme Court-- was the five years that I
spent as a state trial judge. And as a judge,
you have a capacity to learn not only about
the parties in a case but the jurors in
a case in a way that a trial lawyer
simply doesn't have. And one of the things-- I'll just stick to one point. One of the things that I learned
in the course of those five years was the
inestimable moral value of the jurors, judged in the
way they went about their work. I can remember being
at Bar meetings, and a lawyer would say,
apropos of criminal cases. Well, you know, you say
beyond reasonable doubt, but they're going to do
what they're going to do. And I found out
that that was wrong. And one of the things
that I did invariably, with only one or two
exceptions in five years, was to talk to the jurors
after they had decided a case. And I wouldn't tell them whether
I agreed with them or not, but I would answer
questions from them, and I would learn a lot in
the course of doing that. And I can remember a number
of times in which I would go into that jury room, after
the jurors that acquitted someone in a criminal case,
and someone would say, hey, don't get us wrong,
judge, we think he did it. But beyond a reasonable doubt? Nah. They took their
jobs very seriously. And I also had experience with
a grand jury that absolutely refused to indict someone
who was absolutely guilty, because they
believed there was some kind of a political
hanky panky going on between the State Attorney
General and the County Prosecutor. And they didn't
know what it was, but they were not going to
put somebody in the jeopardy of a criminal case if there
was something they should know, but they didn't. And it was both the
independence of the jurors and their truly punctilious
conscientiousness to follow the
instructions that kept me from ever falling into that kind
of cynicism that I described. And that certainly had
its effect on my judgment in cases that came
before me when I was on the Supreme Court. You may remember, back
during the earliest stages of the war on drugs, one
of the sort of tactics was to try to make every
significant possible issue in a drug possession case
into a sentencing factor rather than an element
that had to be proven. And, ultimately, this issue
got put before the Court. I know perfectly well,
because I was conscious of it at the time, that my respect
for the conscientiousness of the jury, and my recognition
that they really did stand between the power of the
government and the defendant, that the most important
consideration was not to allow anything, as
a matter of practice, to creep in that
was going to dilute the value of the
guarantee of a jury trial. I wouldn't have
been that sensitive without that experience. So what I'm saying
boils down to the fact that my most valuable
experience is, for purposes of my time
on the Supreme Court, with the experiences in the
trenches as a trial judge, seeing how things worked. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank you. All right. So here's a little bit
of an odd question. It's a little counter-factual. If you had not become
a lawyer, what do you think you would be doing today? Justice Gorsuch? JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
So I cheated. I looked at these questions
before I showed up. [LAUGHTER] And I had to think about
this one for a minute, John. And then it-- DEAN JOHN MANNING: I
have no plan B, myself. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
Right, right, right. But then it became
really obvious to me. I just said, who do I envy? I envy fly fishing guides
and ski instructors, and better yet, somebody
who does one in the summer and the other in the winter. [LAUGHTER] And I know people like that. And I really like their office
and their work environment. DEAN JOHN MANNING: OK. Very good. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: All right? DEAN JOHN MANNING: Fly fishing
guide, that's excellent. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: Thank you. [APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Chief Justice Roberts? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
Well, I would probably be hounding President
Faust to see if I could get a position
in the History Department. I went to law school
because there were no jobs in any history department. And it was only after
about near the end of the first year of law
school that I decided it might be a better option anyway. But I think studying history. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
What kind of history? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: European. Modern European
history, which is what I spent as much time in
college studying as I could. It's not as much
fun as fly fishing. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Justice Kagan? JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY: Well,
the only problem is, Chief-- [LAUGHTER] --Chief Justice, you couldn't
get into the President's office, because I would
be the first saying that I want to teach
English literature and/or political thought. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Justice Kagan. JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
Well, that's so funny. It's three in a row
who say, we would like to be university professors. I also majored in history,
and I would have been a history professor, I think. When I went to law
school, it was-- should I go to history graduate school? Should I to to law school? Should I go to history
graduate school? So same thing. DEAN JOHN MANNING: And
what tipped the balance? JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
Possibly a little bit of what the Chief Justice said. It seemed a much
more practical route. [LAUGHTER] But I think also a sense that-- DEAN JOHN MANNING: I think
President Faust did OK. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE ELENA
KAGAN: I think also a sense maybe that
I would have found sitting in the archives
all day that there was a sense in
which I wanted what I did to matter, and
to matter in the world, to matter to other people. And law seemed, on the one
hand, incredibly intellectually challenging, but
also a way to make a difference, which I wasn't
sure being a history professor would. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Anyone else? JUSTICE DAVID
SOUTER: I will just add that the two who wanted to
teach history, unfortunately, would have arrived a little
late, because I would already have gotten the job. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING: The
competition would be very tough, I would have to say. [LAUGHTER] Well, that just leaves
you, Justice Breyer. What would you have done? JUSTICE STEPHEN
BREYER: I was thinking I knew what I wanted to do
when I was seven years old. And what I wanted
to do was I wanted to be a baseball
player in the summer and drive a garbage
truck in the winter. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
That's a good answer. JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: Yeah. Well, most of us
wanted to be teachers. We all have. I mean, I have. The people in these
other departments saying, go to law school. Go to law school. And that was-- anyway. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. Here is a two part question. You may answer, obviously, since
you're Supreme Court Justices, either, both, or neither. [LAUGHTER] And they may be
the same question. They may be the same answer. Or they may be
different answers. So now I'll ask. [LAUGHTER] So the first part is,
who is the Justice with whom you never
served whom you particularly or most admire? And who is-- and this is
the second part of this. And it may be different. And who is the Justice with
whom you never served with whom you'd most want to have dinner? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
Well, that's easy. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Justice Breyer, you seem-- JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
First answer is Brandeis. Practical, interested
in the facts. Once you know the
facts of the situation, understands the
principle, writes clearly, and has decent values. And I admire what he did. Absolutely. Brandeis. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Second question? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
Clearly, Holmes. Holmes had deep culture. He read a lot. He knew all kinds of things. He knew philosophy. He was in that group, what
it was, in Philadelphia? You know, with Person,
James, and the others? And he would be very
interesting to talk to on all kinds of subjects. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Those
seem like good choices. And they both went to Harvard. [LAUGHTER] Justice Kagan? JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: My
first answer is the same. You know those bobbleheads? The only bobblehead I have in
my office is Justice Brandeis. [LAUGHTER] So in addition to everything
that Justice Breyer just said, I'll say that
Justice Brandeis had, I think, this incredible
sense of history of our nation and brought
that to bear in the way he thought about law. But the person I would
like to go to dinner with-- I'm going to cheat a little bit. I never served with him, but I
did spend a good deal of time with him, was Justice Marshall,
who is the greatest storyteller I've ever met in my life. The greatest raconteur
I've ever met in my life. If you're going to
have dinner with one person who's ever served in
the Supreme Court, take TM. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY:
Thurgood had these stories. And when a Justice retires,
we have a dinner for them. And Thurgood got
up to tell a story. And the story was that he'd
been counsel in a capital case and was going to--
in those days, they could argue
an hour per side. And the attorney that hired him
was an attorney from Alabama, and that attorney,
the boss, said that he was going to argue
in the first part of the case and Thurgood the second. So they sat down at
the counsel table. And the case was called. And Hugo Black
stands up and stalks out of the room, which
is our polite way of saying you're recused. And so the argument went on. And at the end of the
argument, the attorney said, now, I don't
know why Hugo did that, because he's my cousin. [LAUGHTER] The case, a capital conviction,
was affirmed four to four. Equally divided court. Thurgood got to work
and spent two years and got the sentence commuted. But we had never
heard that story. None of us knew-- he
was the great raconteur. A marvelous man. And as you know, we
were very, very close. DEAN JOHN MANNING: And the
Justice with whom you'd-- JUSTICE ANTHONY
KENNEDY: Oh, I would want to meet John Marshall. He had a vision
of a country that would be unified by this
magnificent Constitution. The Constitution that can
endure and that must endure-- endure for ages. We share something in
common in that both of us told the presidents
we'd rather practice law than serve on the Court. But I would want to
see John Marshall. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Chief? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
Well, Justice Kennedy has stolen a little of my thunder. It would have to
be John Marshall. You know, his main biography,
the biographers, the subtitle is Definer of a Nation,
which is exactly what he was. He is certainly the most
significant political figure in our history who
was not president. His decisions really did
shape what the Constitution was going to mean in practice. He had a mind that could see
all of the bounds of the problem at once and then
sort through it. He was a brilliant writer. People don't realize that. If you pick up Marbury
versus Madison, it doesn't read like
the late 18th century. There's no whereas's
in there or heretofore. You can read it. An intelligent
layperson can read it. And he was an
extraordinary individual. His ability to
exercise influence over the other Justices who are
living in the same townhouse through the force
of his personality and the persuasiveness of his
reasoning was extraordinary. And he was-- DEAN JOHN MANNING: So
is it the same answer for both dinner and-- JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: No, no. No, no. Dinner is easy. But he was--
Marshall was also, I think it's correct, the largest
individual importer of Madeira in the colonies at that time. And he served a lot of it. And anyway, dinner is easy. David has touched on it. You'd want to have dinner
with William Howard Taft. [LAUGHTER] Not only-- he's the only person,
of course, both President and Chief Justice. He's extraordinarily
underrated, because he is fat. And you think he can't really
be a brilliant public servant. And you know you'd get a lot
of food, and it would be good. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Justice Souter? JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER:
Well, I'm going to become part of the
trend here for saying let's have fun at dinner instead
of getting these serious types. [LAUGHTER] And I'm not sure that
you can improve on Holmes as a dinner companion. But a later example that I
think would be pretty safe for a good bang up dinner
would have been Robert Jackson. He had the most
marvelous sense of humor. He wrote the greatest opinion
in English or American history on the subject of why
he had changed his mind. I changed my mind
once on nude dancing, and I borrowed liberally
from his opinion on it. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Keep on, David. Keep on. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: I
don't remember, David, which direction you went on it. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: I went
in favor of it, of course. [LAUGHTER] But-- and let's
not end with that. [LAUGHTER] Remember, as an example
of Jackson's wit, he was toastmaster, I think,
at a testimonial dinner honoring both Learned Hand
and his cousin Augustus Hand. And he paid great tribute to
Learned Hand's craftsmanship as a writer and to Augustus
Hand's great wisdom and common sense on
matters of substance. And he ended the toast with,
"quote Learned and follow Gus." [LAUGHTER] That's the kind of guy to
have at the dinner table. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank you. Justice Gorsuch? JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
Justice Souter has stolen part of my thunder. I would pick Robert
Jackson, instantly, as someone I would have both
loved to have served with and had dinner with. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: Yeah. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: Yeah. Remarkable. He didn't graduate from the
Harvard Law School or really any law school, right? DEAN JOHN MANNING: Then
it's-- then it's OK. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: He
practiced for a number of years in upstate New York. And then serves in
every important role in the administration. And then becomes a Judge. And then often rules against
the administration he just left as Attorney General. And recognized the difference
in function between Judge and advocate. And spoke about
that beautifully, as he did, what it means
to be of an official in the Department of Justice. That beautiful speech. And then, of course, Nuremberg. I mean, 20th century
life as a Judge, I just think it was just such
a pity his time was cut short. And then I'll throw
in another one, because I'd agreed with
so many others that have been mentioned, but maybe
one that hasn't been mentioned was Joseph Story. Really, a scholar
of the Constitution. Someone who did do it all. Was a scholar and
a thoughtful Judge. And the quote that we heard from
the president, from his work, gives you a sense of the
man's heart and mind. And I am just very admirable. Capable both being
carefully analytical but also understanding
the consequence and the weight of his role. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank you. Those were great answers. JUSTICE ELENA
KAGAN: And I'm going to give away one of
the amazing things about being Dean of
Harvard Law School-- is you sit in this
office, and there are two desks in the office. And one of them is
Justice Story's desk. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Right. JUSTICE ELENA
KAGAN: And the other is a stand up writing desk,
which is Justice Holmes' desk. DEAN JOHN MANNING: But
we now call it the Story taken desk, actually. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: If
that doesn't give you a sense of responsibility
and a sense of the importance of this institution and
what it does in the world, I don't know
anything that would. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank
you, Justice Kagan. All right. I'm going to ask a couple of
questions about your work now. So here's one. What qualities make
for a great lawyer? Either before your
Court or anywhere? Second is what are the
most common avoidable mistakes that lawyers make
in briefs and oral arguments? Justice Kagan? You've been a teacher, a
Solicitor General, a Justice. JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
I think there's no one set of qualities that
makes for a great lawyer, because I think there's so
many different kinds of lawyers in the world. And I think that
the qualities that make somebody a great
lawyer in our Court are very different
from those that make somebody a great trial
lawyer or a great negotiator. So I think that one is all
specific to the situation. What makes for a great
Supreme Court advocate, I'm going to say, the Chief
Justice should tell you that, because he was one of the
greatest that ever lived. But I think it's the
ability to really engage in a conversation
with the Court, not to ever run
away from questions, to understand that the hard
questions that they're asking you are the ones that you
have to answer to prevail, to be respectful, but also to
approach the Court as an equal. You're explaining
things to them. You probably understand the
case more deeply at that point than they do. To have confidence in yourself. But always, always, always to
listen to what the Judges are asking and to go with that. Not to give any kind of-- I have 10 points in my
pocket that I need to get to. But to listen really
carefully to the Bench and where it's at,
because that's who you need to convince. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Does that sound right, Chief Justice Roberts? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
Well, Justice Kagan, one of the greatest
deans that has ever lived-- [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] I agree with pretty much
everything she said. I used to try to sum it up in
saying that the lawyer must be dispassionate. And I think this
is true not only in arguing before the
Court but in negotiation. I don't know as
much about trials. In other words, you have
to have the Judge think that you are not just pounding
away zealously for your client. And there are ways to do that. One is that you recognize
the weaknesses in your case. When the Judge or Justice says,
well, what about this case? Don't pretend that
it's not bad for you. You can say, well, that's
not our favorite case, and here's why. But you go on to explain
so the Judge feels that you're part of-- in the same role,
to some extent, with her in the sense of
trying to figure out the case. And once you can establish
that relationship, you can be a much more
effective advocate. DEAN JOHN MANNING: So it
sounds as if listening, candor, answering questions
all work very well. Anybody have a different view? [LAUGHTER] Is that what you all look for? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: I've
not been really a practicing lawyer, except for
a couple of years in the Justice Department. But over time, I've
met many lawyers. And I admire quite a few. [LAUGHTER] And the qualities I
admire are the things that you brought out. You're no stronger than
your weakest argument, not your strongest. But the thing I think
I admire, Lloyd Cutler and others who have that,
I heard it put that-- Bill Coleman. It was a quality that
actually Drew Faust mentioned, a certain disinterestedness. You're for your client
but not too much. And that's right. You step back a little. And those I admire particularly,
they spent quite a-- some of their career,
anyway, in public service. Not entirely private. You're part of the community. And there's so many ways to
be part of the community. So I like those dollar a year--
used to be men, now women, too-- or on the library
board or whatever. But the lawyer is
part of the community. The lawyer is representing
his client well but remember that
disinterestedness. That's a good word. And you're no stronger
than your weakest argument. Make sure you understand that. DEAN JOHN MANNING: And so it
sounds like an issue of trust. That the lawyer
needs to build trust. Justice Gorsuch,
what do you say? JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: Well, I
was in practice, predominately a trial lawyer. And I think one thing that-- everything that has
been said remains true for the trial level, as well. But two of the things
I might add to the mix. One is just plain old hard work. It's tough to be a lawyer today. And teaching young people
that those nights in Langdell, that they may pay off. That they're worth it. To know the law, to be able
to serve your client well, requires a certain irreducible
amount of hard work. And the other is ethics. Lawyer as friend. What does it mean to be
a friend to your client? It means giving
everything you've got, without giving
up yourself either, and what's essential to you. So your integrity matters a
very great deal in the process. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank you. Anyone else want to-- JUSTICE ANTHONY
KENNEDY: Well, sometimes people at a social occasion
say, does oral argument make a difference? And they stand back like they've
asked you a trick question. [LAUGHTER] And if you say no, you're
engaging in the charade. And you say yes, you're
being pushed around by a bunch of lawyers. But, of course, it
makes a difference. And, as my colleagues
have indicated, we are there in order
to make up our minds. And as Justice Kagan and
Justice Roberts indicated, a good oral argument-- if
sometimes we behave well, sometimes we don't. A good oral argument
is a conversation that Justices are having among
themselves that the attorney can enter into. And I agree with Justice Kagan. You really want to
help the Justice and enter into his or her
mind, because that Justice is trying to decide how best
to understand your argument. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Thank you. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER:
Could I add one thing? DEAN JOHN MANNING: Of course! JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER:
Just a bit of detail. As several people have said,
starting with Justice Kagan, listen to what the
Court is saying and try to respond to what is
really on the Court's mind. And the one point of detail
that I might add actually to the Chief Justice's follow
up is that a very good way to do that, which not that
many lawyers I think practice, is to sort of
structure your argument by going back to
first year procedure. Remember if it-- I
don't know whether it's still taught this way, but it
was one when I was first year. We learned something about
the old forms of action and the old formal
pleas, one of which was a plea in confession
and avoidance. And you say, yeah, everything
that they allege is true. But it does not amount to
an actionable violation or whatnot. And the master of
responding to what is really on the Judge's mind, to what
the Judge clearly indicates, is the stumbling point. The master of doing
that was Rex Lee. And I never heard Rex Lee
when he was Solicitor General but after he resigned from that. He argued several cases when
I was still on the Court. And Rex Lee, I don't know
whether he did this consciously or not, but it sounded that way
when you'd see it demonstrated. He was prepared to give a
confession and avoidance answer to the most
devastating question that a Judge could ask him. And he seemed to structure
his answer in that way. And I remember one day, when-- and, by the way, when
I was on the Court, I was sat next to
Justice Scalia. And I remember one day, I
don't remember the case, but I remember one day
when Rex Lee was arguing. And Justice Scalia asked
him the ultimate question, and the case was going to be
won or lost, at least in Justice Scalia's mind, on that. And I happened to watch
Mr. Lee's face as Justice Scalia was asking the question. And he didn't totally suppress
a little flicker of a smile. [LAUGHTER] And I remember when
Justice Scalia finished, Rex Lee pointed at
him with his hand. And he said, you are dead
right, Justice Scalia. And I'll tell you why it
doesn't make a bit of difference in this case. [LAUGHTER] So if there is one point that I
would add to the discussion is don't forget confession
and avoidance. [LAUGHTER] It's a great way to organize
your capacity to survive the devastating question. JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: Justice
Souter does not remember the losing lawyer in that case. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: Pardon me? [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
You're not remembering the losing lawyer in that case. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: I
thought it was polite not to. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: And
it was nine to nothing. [LAUGHTER] Thank you. DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. I think we are down to
our last 15 minutes. And I think we have time
only for the lightning round. [LAUGHTER] So I'm going to
ask the question. And if you recognize
yourself as the person I am describing,
please raise your hand and say a few words
about this fact. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: Is this
confession and avoidance? [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: I
think that's up to you. [LAUGHTER] All right. Ready? First one. JUSTICE ELENA
KAGAN: What happens if no one raises their hand? [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Then
I will call on you. [LAUGHTER] All right. First one is, one of you was an
Eagle Scout by the age of 12. Eagle Scout by 12. Justice Breyer. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] Can you tie a knot? [LAUGHTER] Can you tie a knot? Can you tie a knot, Stephen? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Yes. JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: I
never heard of anybody who was an Eagle Scout at 12. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: What? Yeah, how-- JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: 12? JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
How did it happen? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: Yeah. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
How did you do it? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
I began at eight. DEAN JOHN MANNING:
You began at eight? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: Yeah. I lied about my age. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: Fair enough. All right. [LAUGHTER] One of you worked on oil
rigs in Canada and Louisiana. Canada and Louisiana oil rigs. Justice Kennedy. [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY: My
uncle was in the oil business, and my first job
in Canada was I had to nail up what we call a
dog house in the oil field business. And I had my new
overalls and my gloves, and I nailed the boards
up, because the foreman was coming over. And I nailed my
glove to the wall. [LAUGHTER] And I couldn't get it out. So I finally I tore it out. And I said, don't worry. I'll get it out. He said, oh, no. You leave that right here. So all summer long, every
salesman that came out, they had to see the glove. [LAUGHTER] But then I got to
know the oil fields and worked on
drilling rigs to help pay my way through college. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Interesting. OK. One of you was a member of
the United Steelworkers. Chief Justice Roberts. JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: Electrical
helper, job class six, I think is what it was. Which meant you walked
around with the electricians, and whenever they
wanted some fun, they'd tell you to tighten
a particular bolt that turned out to be live. So like this. [LAUGHTER] And it just never
got old for them. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. Now this is a very good one. One of you engaged
in a mock sword duel during your second year
at Harvard Law School and ended up at University
Health Services. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: You know,
it was a way to pass the time. [LAUGHTER] By the time I did this
with one of my classmates, I was also a proctor in Harvard
Yard, a freshman proctor. And so we got the
ranking assistant dean a freshman to referee the duel. And probably most of my freshmen
proctees showed up for it. And everything was going
fine, except for one problem I had with the sword. Mine did not have
one of those guards that goes over your hand. And my friend's saber came
down against the side of mine and smacked right into the
sort of the joint in the flesh there. And the thing started bleeding. And my first reaction
was to just let it bleed. But my boss, the
Dean, looked at it. And he said-- he
looked at the saber, and he said, you know, the
thing is dirty and rusty. He said, it's probably
crawling with tetanus. You better go down and-- got to go down and get a shot. So the entire entourage traipsed
down to the University Health Services. And while we were waiting
for a doctor to come out, a lot of the freshmen
had come, and I began to think I've got to
be hospitable about this. So we were-- the UHS in those
days, maybe still now, was right across the
street from Elsie's Restaurant on the
corner of North Auburn Street and Holyoke. And Elsie's served a great cream
cheese and caviar sandwich. So I gave some money to one
of the freshmen and said, you know, go over
and get, whatever we had at that point, 12 cream
cheese and caviar sandwiches, so people can enjoy themselves
while we're waiting. And finally a doctor came
out, and he said, well, how did this happen, sir? And I said, well, I
was fighting this duel. [LAUGHTER] I said, and I think he began
to lose professional interest at that point. And at just about
that moment, the kid arrived with the cream
cheese and caviar sandwiches. And that ended the patience of
the University Health Services. They told everybody
else to get out. And they did give
me a tetanus shot. And it worked. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
Justice Breyer, you have a comment on that? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
These things happened to him. [LAUGHTER] Honestly, while he was a member,
active member, of our Court, he's walking in the
woods somewhere, a rabbit jumped on his back
and bit him in the neck. [LAUGHTER] That's right. And then, by the way,
when he's in his office, he finds a fox that came
out of the basement. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
We're learning a lot. JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY:
We miss you, Dave. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. Next question in
the lightning round. One of you has raised
horses, chickens, and goats. Justice Gorsuch. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: Yes. No foxes! [LAUGHTER] Yeah. My daughters were
huge into 4-H. And I learned how to bathe
a chicken, which is not something I recommend. [LAUGHTER] And raising a goat, I
definitely don't recommend. [LAUGHTER] But we attended more
4-H events than any one should in a lifetime. And I loved every second of it. Yeah. DEAN JOHN MANNING: And
one of your former clerks, I won't identify who,
said that your goat thought it was a lap dog. JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: Nibbles. Nibbles the goat, aptly
named, was an escape artist. He would get out of
the corral, proceed to eat most of our
fruit trees bare, and then work his
way in the house, and thought he was a lap dog. Yes, that is all true. And was vaguely housebroken by
the end of it but not quite. [LAUGHTER] You don't want to go there. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: OK. So now we're almost done
with the lightning round. Couple more questions here. One of you uses contractions
only in dissents. [LAUGHTER] Justice Kagan, would you
care to elaborate on that? JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
You know, when you're writing for the
Court, you should be a little bit formal in my view. But when you're
writing for dissent, you can let it go
a little bit more. [LAUGHTER] Letting it go here,
being equivalent to using contractions! [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. [LAUGHTER] One of you was caught by the
Dean of the Harvard Law School at a Red Sox game the
day before a tax exam. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE ANTHONY
KENNEDY: It was 1960. The last year Ted Williams
was going to play. And I was going
back to California so I wanted to see him. And so I told my study mate,
I said, I've got two tickets. I was-- really worked on
him for the Boston Red Sox. He said, well, the
tax final's tomorrow. And I said, well, you
bring the Revenue Code. I'll bring the case book. And we sat down, and I
heard this voice saying, you don't bring the Revenue
Code to the baseball game. [LAUGHTER] And it was Erwin Griswold. [LAUGHTER] And he was struck-- I don't know if he thought it
was a profanation of the Code or of the game. [LAUGHTER] He would see me like 20 years
later in the courts and say, do you still bring the
Revenue Code to the game park? [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. This is a question that I
have for which two of you need to raise your hands. Two of you have
often been confused for each other at oral argument
and once by an O'Connor clerk. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE STEPHEN
BREYER: You and me? [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER:
And we don't know why. [LAUGHTER] Actually, it just
happens all the time. And my favorite sort of
summation of the problem we have came at-- if I get this
wrong, correct me-- came at one of those
lunches that Justice Breyer was having with law clerks
from other chambers. They would invite us
to lunch and so on. And one clerk decided to
sort of broach the subject and said, as I understand
it, I understand that you and Justice
Souter are often confused. [LAUGHTER] And then realizing
what he had said. He said, I mean, you
get all mixed up. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
But one of you has to tell the story
about the best thing about serving on the Court. JUSTICE STEPHEN
BREYER: About the what? JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
The best thing about serving on the Court. JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: Yeah. I think it must be
exaggerated, unless it's-- JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
The story of-- JUSTICE STEPHEN
BREYER: But I often-- I do get asked. JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: No. JUSTICE STEPHEN
BREYER: Don't you mean I'm a member of the
Court and people ask-- JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY: No. This was a great response you
had, David, to the confusion. JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: What? Oh, yes. If Jake works. If Jake works. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: No, you-- JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: Do I have
to tell the story for you? JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER:
Tell the story. You tell it. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
It's your story. JUSTICE DAVID
SOUTER: You tell it. JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
It happened to you. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: You-- you tell it. JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER:
I'd just make it up. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER:
It's about you. JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
Oh, well, I'll tell it. It's a true story. Somebody's got to
tell the story. [LAUGHTER] Someone comes up to Justice
Souter, mistakes him as Justice Breyer, and
asks, Justice Breyer, what is the best thing about
being on the Supreme Court? And David said, serving
with Justice Souter. [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] DEAN JOHN MANNING:
That story, by the way, has been called truthy. [LAUGHTER] JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: It works. DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. Last three questions. One of you, as a Harvard Law
student, went to Harvard Square almost every day for 31 flavors. 31 flavors. [LAUGHTER] Chief Justice Roberts,
would you care to elaborate? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: It's
like the episodes of Friends, you like to go someplace
where you're known, where they know your name. And the Baskin Robbins
store, they knew my name. And you would go in, and
it advertised 31 flavors, but I always had the same thing. JUSTICE DAVID SOUTER: What? JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER: What? JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: It
was a marshmallow sundae with chocolate chip ice cream. DEAN JOHN MANNING: Wow. [LAUGHTER] That's good. [LAUGHTER] All right. The next question, one
of you celebrated the end of the first term of
service on the Supreme Court by not shaving all summer. [LAUGHTER] Justice Gorsuch, how
did that work out? JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH: I
went home to Colorado. I hiked 14ers, fished,
and did nothing. I haven't had a summer
off since I was 12. It was fantastic. [LAUGHTER] It was wonderful. And I did grow it
out all summer, and then I asked my
daughters whether I could be seen on the Bench. And they said, under no
circumstances whatsoever. And my wife said, oh, they'll
start reading into it. What does a beard mean? [LAUGHTER] So off it came. And yeah, yeah, I did. DEAN JOHN MANNING: All right. Final question. One of you was voted by
your fellow law clerks to be the clerk most likely
to serve on the Supreme Court. [APPLAUSE] JUSTICE ELENA
KAGAN: Well, I know who must have told you
that embarrassing fact, because Professor Steiker-- DEAN JOHN MANNING: I cannot
confirm or deny that. JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
I'm just going to say, Professor Steiker
was my co-clerk. And at the end of the year, we
voted each other all these sort of yearbook categories. Professor Steiker's, she was
going to be a public defender. And she was voted
the last person to make a million dollars. [LAUGHTER] And this was-- mine was--
it was definitely better than being voted the first
person to be indicted. [LAUGHTER] DEAN JOHN MANNING: I
won't ask who that was. Let's give a big
round of applause for the Chief Justices. [APPLAUSE]
