Joseph Smith and the Gold Plates, by Bill McKeever

we're good to see you all out on a Friday night my name is bill McKeever I'm the founder and director of Mormonism research ministry we've been around since 1979 just to quench any rumors I was never a Mormon in my life I a lot of people just assumed that I grew up in Southern California had a lot of LDS friends and it was through those friendships that I became very interested in this topic the more I started looking into it the more concerned I became of naturally for my Mormon friends and I can certainly concur with Ron who spoke here earlier that our desire is certainly born out of a love and compassion for the LDS people and I agree also with Ron I hate the term anti-mormon also I just I've never liked that term it's it's always been a pejorative and it's meant to be a pejorative and it's unfair that a lot of Mormons use that title because it's meant to stifle conversation which I feel is is very sad but tonight we're going to talk about the gold plates and Ron talked a little bit about the translation of the plates and such like that I want to go before that and I want to ask you a very important question you asked any latter-day saint about the importance of the Book of Mormon of course it stands right up there I mean there's almost like a circular reasoning with many latter-day saints how do we know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God because he gave us the Book of Mormon how do we know the Book of Mormon is the word of God because it came from a prophet okay it's very important in in the Mormon viewpoint but what if the story of the gold plates was completely fabricated what if there really were no gold plates what if what Joseph Smith kept hidden from everybody was really who knows maybe the bottom of pie plates for all we know that he cut out and you know stapled together somehow this is what I want to do tonight for the past several years when we go down to Manti Utah for the Mormon miracle pageant I've been going down there with a set of gold plates that I fabricated and I admit it okay there are 10 pound barbell weights on a 3/4 inch pipe with a with a t-handle and oftentimes I'll stand down there on the streets in man time my last Mormons as they're walking past me do you believe Joseph Smith had gold plates and 99.9 percent of the time - a hundred percent of the time everybody passing me will say yes they believed that they were gold plates and so I challenged them to heft my gold plates and see if we can recreate the story at least as much as we can on the streets and I think that's the big issue here can we really recreate the story that Mormons are led to believe regarding the gold plates and Joseph Smith retrieving them and how we retrieve them and so on because if we can't we have to come up with some kind of explanation for that and believe me Mormons do have explanations I'm going to try and respond to just about every rebuttal I have ever heard from a Mormon over the past several years regarding the gold plates issue and hopefully by the time we're done I'm gonna show you that Smith really didn't have gold plates at all in fact even Mormon apologists are starting to admit that and I'll explain what I mean by that but let's let's go on here we know according to Joseph Smith's story he claimed that he was visited by an angelic messenger that was sent from the presence of God to him and that this angelic messenger was named Moroni officially that's the name of the angel he said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent and the source from whence they sprang he also said that the fullness of the everlasting gospel was contained in it as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants now that last portion I could spend another hour and a half just talking about is it really doesn't really contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel but I can't go there tonight because I want to stay with the with this story this story was retold in conference not long ago and the unsigned magazine where Robert D Hales a Mormon apostle said on September 21st 1823 Joseph Smith was visited by the angel Moroni who taught him of an ancient record containing the fullness of the everlasting gospel preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah recorded on gold plates the Book of Mormon gives an account of Christ's ministry in the Western Hemisphere exactly I let them debate about that I mean that's it's fun to watch them to be it on where did this actually happen you have the BYU crowd that says well we believe in the limited geography theory and so that was all down in Central America and then you have the the Meldrum crowd I guess what we could call them that believes in the North America which I called a more traditional theory of where the Book of Mormon lands really were and this is an in-house debate for them this is one of those things where I just kind of stand on the outside and feel like holding up the sign saying you're both wrong but I'll let you guys argue this out and you guys can do what you want with each other on this one just as the Bible records his life and ministry in the Holy Land Joseph received the gold plates four years later and in December of 1827 began to translate the Book of Mormon how did Joseph Smith get the plates we find that there is a story that was told by his mother Lucy Mac Smith which is recorded in a book called the history of Joseph Smith by his mother and in that biography we find on page 108 this explanation as to how Joseph Smith retrieved the plates and then eventually brought them to the Smith home where he would eventually translate them from the reformed Egyptian as we are told into English or into what we know today as the Book of Mormon pay careful attention to this narrative it's very important because this is really a very important aspect of this whole story tonight this is what she said Joseph on coming to them meaning the plates took them from their secret place and wrapping them in his linen frock placed them under his arm and started for home after preceding a short distance he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods I have to think this kind of shows Joseph Smith's discernment here he's got to get off the main road and this is where he comes into trouble so okay traveling some distance - he left the road he came to a large windfall and as he was jumping over a log a man sprang up from behind it and gave him a heavy blow with a gun Joseph turned around and knocked him down and ran at the top of his speed about half a mile farther he was attacked again in the same manner as before he knocked this man down in like manner as the former and ran on again and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time in striking the last one he dislocated his thumb which however he did not notice until he came within sight of the house when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath as soon as he was able he arose and came to the house he was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running Martin Harris and one of those interviews that he gave actually said that when Joseph Smith got to the house he gave the plates to his mother through the window okay this is what we are told now this story has been corroborated by the correlation department in the LDS Church and recently the LDS Church news came out with an article saying that if something is correlated that you can bet on that as being something that is sanctioned by the LDS Church and it is to be believed I know this comes with a great amount of consternation by a lot of very liberal Mormons who really can't stand a lot of the stuff that is in the church manuals which is correlated but nonetheless that's what the oldest church news is telling its people they are to believe this stuff well this is a church manual it's titled church history and the fullness of time student manual and Lucy max Smith account is found on page 45 in the 2003 edition of this book so we're not talking about something that was written in the last century we're not even talking at this point so it's something that was written over a decade ago this is rather recent they are still sticking to this story now in August of 2009 the ensign magazine included an article called the path to martyrdom and on page 54 this photograph or this drawing this painting if you will was found on that page notice what we have here we have a depiction of what Lucy Mac Smith tells us happened when Joseph Smith took the plates from their secret place wrap them in a linen frock you can see them wrapped underneath here and he heads on to his home and here is the man with the gun and here's the log in other words they're depicting the story that Lucy Mac Smith was telling so in the August 2009 edition of the ensign just a few months ago they are concurring with Lucy Mac Smith's narrative of how Joseph Smith brought the plates home many Mormons that I have talked to you one-on-one don't disagree with this they all tend to say that that they don't have a problem with that and okay we'll take it from there how large were the plates there are actually different sizes that have been given by various Mormons Martin Harris said that the plates were eight inches by 7 inches by four inches deep Orson Pratt a Mormon apostle said that the plates were eight inches by 7 inches by 6 inches Joseph Smith however said that the plates were six inches by eight inches by six inches and many of the references that I find when dealing with the plates usually they go by the size that Joseph Smith gave and you can understand why that would probably be more feasible because he was the one that was supposed to be in possession of said plates and if anybody knew anything about the size of the plates you would think it would be the guy that was supposedly looking at them and translating them into the English language now if the plates were in fact gold plates we would find this one cubic foot of gold weighs twelve hundred and four pounds the size of the plates given by Joseph Smith causes us to conclude that the plates were about one sixth of a cubic foot by the dimensions that he gives six by eight by six about one sixth of a cubic foot Mormon apologists pretty much they all agree that if the plates containing the Book of Mormon were made of gold they would have weighed a found 200 pounds and you get that figure by taking the 1200 and dividing it by six so you come up with 200 I don't find too many Mormon apologists that would really disagree with that if the plates were really made of gold now some would argue well it couldn't be that heavy because they're the the plates would not have been because they were beaten by hand they wouldn't have been perfectly flat so it wouldn't be like a solid chunk of gold there would be air gaps and I want to talk about that a little bit later on let me just tell you something because gold is so pliable and at the same time is so dense there would not be any air gaps if the plates were made of gold there just would not be gold is very heavy and because of that its own weight would flatten out the place to where it would be like you have a a solid chunk of gold now you can understand why there would probably be men who would want to steal these from Joseph Smith I mean 200 pounds of gold and I I might be off on this but back in that time I think gold was probably about $35 an ounce so now what is it 1100 an ounce as certainly that would be quite a treasure if you really had a set of plates that were the size that Joseph Smith tells us John Welch who's a Mormon apologist works with the once known foundation for ancient research in Mormon studies now it's known as the Neal Maxwell Institute he said he argued on this he said likewise pure gold would be too soft to make useful plates and he's probably right because if you were to take a thin sheet of gold and you were to try an etch or write on it on one side if the gold was too thin it would push the soft metal and it would bulge on the other side now that becomes problematic because the Mormons need both sides of these sheets if they're going to fit the entire narrative of the Book of Mormon on these plates they need all of it there they need both sides of those sheets so that becomes a very important issue when it comes to this of course to say that they could not have been made of pure gold does cause a problem because the Book of Mormon very specifically says in Mosiah 8-9 that there were at least 24 plates which were described as being filled with engravings and they are of pure gold so even though wealth says pure gold to be too soft to write upon the Book of Mormon says we know that there were at least 24 of the plates that were in fact specifically said to be made of pure gold the translation of these plates comprised the book of ether in the Book of Mormon and you can check that out in in ether 1 - since the weight of gold is a problematic factor the story of gold plates must be revised gold plates now must become a lighter alloy type plate in other words we are going to start to get away from the actual reading of the story and we're going to start reading something into it because we know by reading it at face value we run into some real technical problems here and Mormon apologists know that they they are not unaware of this now a lot of lai Mormons don't see it as a problem so much but I'm going to explain how they try to explain that away and it doesn't work but here's here's an interesting take in the new era magazine which is designed for teenagers in the Mormon Church in July of 2007 on page 29 there was an article that was written by Kirk Hendrickson and he says very very interesting statement I'm pulled by him saying this because it seems so easy to refute he says neither Joseph nor any of the witnesses said that the ancient record was made from solid gold nor did they use the term gold plates or plates of gold all Joseph said is that they had the appearance of gold and this is the key phrase that Mormon apologists love to latch on to he never said they were actually made of gold they had the appearance of gold - which I merely respond well what's the appearance of gold isn't it gold I mean doesn't gold have the appearance of gold Smith never goes into a lot of details about what this metal is made up of only in quoting what the angel actually tells him the presumption that the plates were made of solid gold is curious but probably not correct interesting it was Joseph's enemies that point the phrase gold Bible and he's right about that it is more appropriate to refer to the ancient metal records as the golden plates referring to their color not the material they were made of yet remember what I told you when I'm in Manti and I'm asking Mormons as they walk by do you believe Joseph Smith had gold plates yes do you believe they were really made of gold the metal gold yes so even though there are Mormons that are writing this kind of stuff apparently this information is not trickling down very quickly because a lot of people in the Mormon Church still believe Joseph Smith had actual plates made of real gold we go on for instance and the personal writings of Joseph Smith this was compiled and edited by a Mormon named Dean Jesse as you can see these are some of the writings of Smith where he is describing what Moroni actually said to him and notice he talks about plates of gold written on plates of gold and then we have Oliver Cowdery I beheld with my eyes and handled with my hands the gold plates from which it was translated see this is why I wonder what what is Hendrickson talking about you don't have to do a lot of deep research to find out that that's exactly what they were saying about the plates at that time now were there some other theories that were mentioned yes and I'm going to talk about those but the idea that gold plates was never really heard of by Smith or the witnesses really is not true it's really not an accurate assessment here the evening and morning star our Mormon periodical read in January of 1833 it may be well to state that the prophet of God in ancient days according to the accounts of men kept their sacred records on plates of gold and those of less consequence on plates of brass copper wood etc see John's biblical archaeology Josephus and others these plates were generally made from the 16th to 1/32 part of an inch-thick of metal and something like six by eight inches square and fastened at the back with three rings - which of rod was put through to carry or hang them now if the plates are really made of gold and you put these kind of rings in them let me guarantee you they would rip through that metal very quickly it's not that strong Gold is just not that strong of a metal and that's why your wedding rings and such are usually mixed with another metal to give it some real strength to it Dean Jesse in a BYU studies article Lucy Mac Smith 1829 letter to Mary Smith Pierce we find this that this is what loosening max Smith believed she's writing her sister she says dear sister it is my pleasure to inform you of a great work which the Lord hath brought in our family for he has made his paths known to Joseph in dreams and it pleased God to show him where he could dig to obtain an ancient record engraving upon plates of pure gold now notice she's not saying an alloy she's believed that the plates were made of pure gold the question I have to ask is how did she know that who told her that I think that's a fair question why would Lucy Mack Smith make a comment like that I I have to assume that probably her son told her that I mean I would have to assume that where else would she get information like that David Whitmer who was one of the the witnesses whose name you find in the front of every edition of The Book of Mormon giving his testimony gave an interview to a mr. I see fun funn1k me wary of 1878 mr. Whitmer according to this interview is considered a truthful honest and law-abiding citizen by this community and consequently his appointment drew out a large audience mr. Whitmer stated that he had often handled the identical gold golden plates which mr. Smith received from the hand of the angel he said it was of pure gold part of the book was sealed up solid the other part was open and it was this part which was translated in his term today the Mormon Bible we find according to the church news now this is very recent this is a May 15th 1999 page 16 there was an article titled hands on opportunity and where it reads on his speaking of maroney's last visit he speaking of Joseph Smith in this context was entrusted with plates of solid gold this is the church news 1999 this is not 19th century this is nothing like that this is in the church news John Witt so however and in his little booklet seven claims of the Book of Mormon on page 37 writes this with his co-author Franklin s Harris jr. because I think wit so realized that there's a problem with this story and here's where we find that they're going to start re-evaluating the story and start adding some details that they hope will make this story more plausible if I may he says the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were engraved were made of gold and have been described as being about six inches wide by eight inches long and by six inches thick a cube of solid gold of that size if the gold were pure would weigh 200 pounds which would be a heavy weight for a man to carry yes they would even though he were of the athletic type of Joseph Smith now this is interesting because often times when I'm talking with Mormons about the weight of gold and I start showing them that they're pretty heavy I get this I get the same kind of feedback well Joseph Smith was a pretty buff guy you know and he was a buff farm boy you know and about that time I'm yelling at the crowd I'm looking for a 22 year old buff farm boy anybody here want to come lift the place and of course it doesn't matter how buff you are you cannot recreate this story you just cannot do it we go on though this has been urged as an evidence against the truth of the Book of Mormon since it is known that on several occasions the Prophet carried the plates in his arms I mean he was known to be carrying these things around you can read different accounts from people who of joseph smith and had seen him and they would describe him as as carrying these plates under his arms of course they were always wrapped up they never actually saw the plates themselves they just assumed that what was in there were the plates because that's what Joseph Smith was telling people he goes on to say it is very unlikely however that the plates were made of pure gold they would have been too soft and in danger of destruction by distortion now that's a key phrase I've often asked Mormons who believe in the Lucy Mack Smith account he's attacked by three men he's holding the plates under his arm one guy hits him with the blow of a gun we read where are the gold plates during all this he's fighting off these attackers does he actually ask permission of these people who were trying to steal the plates excuse me may I set these down first lest you hit me and I drop them and they become ruined because that's exactly what would have happened metal that soft if you were to hit on the edge it would crush the pages and they would be destroyed you could try to flatten them back out of him but I could guarantee you you would ruin the characters that were affected by the crushing incident and he is acknowledging this he said they would have been too soft and in danger of destruction by distortion he goes on to say for the purpose of record-keeping plates made of gold mixed with a certain amount of copper would be better for such plates would be firmer more durable and generally more suitable for the work in hand if the plates were made of eight karat gold which is gold frequently used in present-day jewelry and allowing a 10% space between the leaves you gotta have space 10% space between the leaves the total weight of the plates would not be above 117 pounds a weight easily carried by a man as strong as was Joseph Smith okay I need a buff farm boy you know who wants to be a buff farm boy rats come over here yes here's what I want you to do and I want you to be very careful in fact I should get a release from you on this you know I want you to merely take the plates and why is this important he said what a hundred and seventeen pounds is an easy weight these are a replica of the plates made of lead led of course is lighter than gold this is if you want to try this yourself they are on display at Sanders bookstore the Utah lighthouse bookstore right across from the baseball field okay on West temple I want you to grab it under the wood here and all I want you to do is just lift it just a couple inches off again off the okay now Thank You Russ did good job thank you now you have to remember though what was the story he took them from their secret hiding place wrapped him in a linen frock tucked them under his arm and starts heading for home when he's hit by the man with a gun what does he do he runs at the top of his speed of course that becomes a very relative statement because I mean how fast could he possibly run carrying something like that under his arm you see it doesn't work mr. Witte so obviously has never done a science project like this and I have fun when I'm talking to high school students on this because I'll say give me the definition of science and I get these blank looks a mess with the California Public Schools I don't know and uh which I can say that because that's where I went science is what observable and repeatable correct you have to be able to observe and you have to be able to repeat so we're going to try to observe and repeat the story and see if we can do that the problem is we can't repeat it it cannot be repeated the way the story goes but yet Mormons tend to all believe it because they've never taken the time to see does this story really make sense I mean I've been told this it's in our manuals this is the story that's been told by my bishop and handed down by my family but they've never really tried to duplicate the story or recreate the story let's go on John Welch in his book reading the Book of Mormon page 276 he says william smith a brother of the prophet who had handled and hefted the plates in a pillowcase remember he never saw them claimed on several occasions that the set of plates weighed about sixty pounds as did Willard chase while Martin Harris said that they weighed forty to fifty pounds William Smith added that the plates were a mixture of gold and copper now how he could come up with that I have no idea Smith make could have told him that but if he told his brother that they were in alloy how did his mother come up with him being pure you see what I'm saying we've got some contradictions here now what does this mean let me make it very clear absolutely nothing it means nothing I don't care what these guys thought they weighed the only way they could give you somewhat of an accurate appraisal of how heavy these plates were is if they were used to handling something that size that weighed about forty or sixty pounds or fifty pounds or whatever that's the only way they could give an educated guess on this how do I know that well because if you go to I go to uh a Lowe's or a Home Depot or whatever don't pick up a bag of cement Portland cement now I know this is I used to work in a hardware store when I first got married I spent I spent a few years working in a hardware store I lifted a lot of Portland cement okay now Portland cement is about 94 to 98 pounds I believe that's pretty heavy now it's not that difficult to carry because I would throw them on my shoulder to carry them out to a truck or whatever and I could distribute the weight on my shoulder remember he's got a little small box worth of plates here that he's carrying under his arm which makes it even more difficult he cannot distribute the weight it makes it even more ethical so when you have guys like Martin Harris saying that they wait 40 to 50 pounds or 60 pounds you know just politely roll your eyes and say that doesn't do anything for me that's a guess it's a guess and that's all it is it's not even an educated guess it's just a guess now wait a minute could they have weighed that light well if they did they certainly weren't made of the material that most Mormons believe they were made of if they were in fact that light then we are not talking about in the gold plates at all and I'll get to that right now because now we get into what's known as the tumbada theory how many remember reading the story of the angel Moroni when he told Joseph Smith that I have plates made of Tim Baga that have a record of an ancient people don't ever remember that do you well this isn't something that Mormon apologists have come up that they think gets them off the hook and John Sorensen who was a BYU professor emeritus actually mentions this in his book an ancient American setting for the Book of Mormon on page 283 he speaks of a man by the name of Reed Putnam RH Putnam he is the one that most Mormon apologists I find turn to to get them out of trouble okay when it comes to the weight of the plates and Sorenson says that RH Putnam has argued persuasively I love the language of farms they always use these this this extravagant language like you can't doubt what I'm saying because it's persuasively you know there's you know you just can argue with this that the Book of Mormon plates that were in Joseph Smith's hands were of Tom Baga had they been an alloy gold they would have been too heavy for a single person to carry again no kidding we know okay what is Tim Baga well Tim Baga is an alloy combo composed mostly of gold and copper it was widely used in pre-columbian cultures of Central America now here's here's where you get into some some arguments with the Mormons among themselves it's a Central American alloy so if you're gonna go into the combate argument you're probably gonna buy into the Central American limited geography theory which is what the BYU guys love to push forth now here we go because the proportion of gold to copper intim Baga artifacts it varies widely there isn't one set of percentage or a carat weight of how much gold mixed with copper or even some silver in there there's there's no standard measure okay so what would it why's that important because Mormons must guess as to how much gold and copper were used in making the plates it's a it's another guess now you can understand that when they make their guess they're gonna go for the lightest weight possible okay which means they're gonna have to use as little gold as possible it doesn't mean they can get rid of the gold entirely because if you get rid of the gold entirely and you just have copper plates copper plates would not survive the many years that these plates were allegedly buried in the ground electrolysis would form and they would be so brittle that when you tried to turn the page it would basically fall apart anybody ever been in the Statue of Liberty what color is the inside of the Statue of Liberty no no inside inside it's red it's red because that's really what copper looks like it's red it's green on the outside why oxidation and that's why several years ago they had to go and try to clean her up and it looked the same to me I felt like there was tax dollars wasted again but I mean they looked the same but if you go on the inside it's not green it's red it looks like copper okay we go on metallurgist Reed and I have it in parentheses spelled differently because in different articles I find his name is spelled differently that's why I put it that way but RH Putnam in the improvement era which was a Mormon magazine September 1996 1966 excuse me says the seblak of Tim Baga of the dimensions indicated for the plates of the Book of Mormon and the eight karat alloy and three percent native impurity would weigh a hundred and six pounds one hundred six point eight eight pounds remember those lead plates are 118 pounds and you saw how difficult it was just to lift them a few inches off the platform they're using such a block as a beginning point 50 percent of the weight should be stripped subtracted for air space wait a minute widtsoe said we only need a 10 percent now they're saying you need 50 percent air space in between the plates why are they doing this because they know they need to get rid of plates they weigh too much so they have to put air gaps in between the plates thus the weight of the stack of plates would be about 53 pounds if each plate were point O 2 of an inch thick it would occupy up to 0.05 of an inch in the stack and there would be 20 plates to the inch the unsealed portion would then consist of 40 plates or 80 sides if the plates were made from 12 karat gold alloy they would have weighed 86 point eight three pounds following the same system used for the eight karat postulate so they're coming up with a lot of theories they don't know they have to guess why because we don't have the gold place remember after they were translated Joseph Smith supposedly gave the plates back to Moroni and and they you know from some of the stories going around they were buried in the Hill Cumorah somewhere okay she's strange they can't seem to find them and you know after this time the church the LDS Church about a year ago had an exhibit in the History Museum across from Temple Square and they were actually inviting people to lift their gold plates and they have this display here as you can see you see if I can bring something if you can see that let's see this set here the plates are very flat okay and they had itching on them but they weren't all plates they've got this kind of plaster-of-paris thing under here underneath it to give it the size I think that was the way it was described and yet the the plates that you could actually lift see the little handlebars here with the little handles here and there's the plates here and there's this other little chunk of plaster of Paris or whatever can I just tell you some plaster of Paris does not weigh as much as metal plates and now you think if the church with all its money could make that many plates why couldn't they have made enough to fill up the whole thing do you think maybe they might know gee this is going to get a little heavy and we're asking people to come and lift these to see what they were like so they're fudging they're fudging on this well notice what they've done here they've taken the plates and because again the theory that they were hand beat and they wouldn't be perfectly flat they've kind of wrinkled the plates so there's not quite as many I think we what did we count Aaron it's like 40 is Aaron here twenty five plates about twenty five plates would be fifty pages both sides but you know really that becomes irrelevant because this is not even a fair way of judging how heavy they probably were if we're going by the story as it's told but the point is is that the LDS Church is not being completely honest with this display now here's the argument that we often hear well that doesn't matter because God gave Joseph Smith's supernatural strength and so it doesn't really matter what they were made of whether they were gold or not 45 okay 45 again it's irrelevant here is a story by Putnam he gives us explanation in an article where the gold plates made of Tim Baga where he says the plates were not so heavy that a man could not carry them Joseph Smith was a man of youth and vigor yet Mormon was 74 years of age when he turned them over to his son and we know that the story is that Foreman took the place and gave him to Maroni who went and buried them and then he died and comes back as an angel that's a whole nother sermon title right there why did he come back as an angel and not a god anyway we go on we are not led to believe I have a theory for that he was known for he was known for playing practical jokes on 14-year olds we are not led to believe that the weight of the plates was a great hindrance so you see they say they weren't that heavy from what we understand the plates could not have been all that heavy the way Joseph Smith was known to carry him around there wasn't that much weight the witnesses testified they had hefted them indicating the weight seemed tolerable you have Emma Smith according to Richard L Bushman he says in Joseph Smith in the beginnings of Mormonism page 95 there were times when the plates wrapped in a linen cloth lay on Joseph and Emma Smith's table according to Bushmen Emma occasionally moved them around on the table as her work required it think about she's moving those plates around on the table so she can do whatever she's going to do on that table with her dust or cook or bake or whatever and she's moving them and we don't ever hear of Emma saying that God gave her a supernatural strength to do that we never hear about the eight witnesses or the three witnesses saying that they needed supernatural strength in order to have the plates or anything like that and we also we never hear of Joseph Smith giving God the glory for giving him supernatural strength to carry the plates around nor do we hear that from Moroni nor do we hear that from Mormon or anybody else who probably handled the plates throughout their history according to the Book of Mormon we don't hear this we just don't hear it it's it's a great escape but I'll tell you something the best argument against the supernatural strength theory our Mormon apologists themselves they're the best argument against this why because they are bending over backwards trying to get the weight light enough to make it manageable because of they know there's no supernatural theory as a part of the story they know that that's why they're working on trying to get the plates light enough now let's go on very quickly did the witnesses actually see the plates because that's a big thing the a Mormon will often say well paint the witnesses said they actually saw the plates they actually saw the place really okay well they did say that there's no doubt about it if you read the testimony of the three witnesses be it known unto all nations Kindred's tongues and people and to whom this work shall come that we through the grace of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ have seen the plates which contained this record which is a record of the people of Nephi and also the Lamanites their brethren we look at the testimony of the eight witnesses be it known unto all nations Kindred's tongues and people and to whom this work shall come that Joseph Smith junior the translator this work has shown unto us the plates of which have been spoken which have the appearance of gold and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands and we also saw the engravings thereon all of which has the appearance of ancient work and of curious workmanship now I don't have time to go into all the different accounts about all of the witnesses but I do want to deal specifically with some things that are very important here if you were to read Doctrine and Covenants section 17 it talks about the day that would eventually come when the witnesses would be able to have a view of the plates according to verse 1 behold I say unto you that you must rely upon my word which if you do with full purpose of heart you shall have a view of the plates and then in verse 2 and it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them even by that faith which has had which was had by the prophets of old in verse 3 and after you have obtained faith and have seen them with your eyes you shall testify of them by the power of God and verse 5 and you shall testify that you have seen them even as my servant Joseph Smith Jr has seen them for it is by my power that he has seen them and it is because he had faith are you seeing something strange here you need faith in order to see a physical object now it could be argued that they needed to have the faith in order to be allowed to see the place but as we start reading the account of how this happened we don't get that impression you had to actually have faith to see them at all let's go on here according to the history of the church volume 1 page 54 not many days after the above commandment was given and that's talking about D and C 17 we for that is Martin Harris David Whitmer Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire into the woods and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer the fulfillment of the promise is given in the above revelation dnc 17 that they should have a view of the plates I'm gonna have to pray in order to see a physical object this is what they're being told now when you read the story at least the way I understand that Joseph Smith was translating the plates in this home when he left the home where he was translating the plates and goes out into these woods with these three men and now they are going to pray in order to see the plates and the first thing I think of when I read this story is weren't they in the hope why are they going out in the woods why can't they just stay where they are and and look at him there if that's where Joseph Smith actually had the place but that's not what's happening they go outside into the woods and they start to pray in order to see this promise fulfilled by commenced by vocal prayer to our Heavenly Father and was followed by each of the others in succession we did not at the first trial however obtain any answer or what manifestation of divine favor in our behalf we again observed the same order of prayer each calling on and praying fervently to to God in rotation but with the same result as before upon this our second failure Martin Harris proposed that he should withdraw himself from us believing as he expressed himself that his presence was the cause of our not obtaining what we wished for he accordingly withdrew from us and we knelt down again and had not been many minutes engaged in prayer when presently we beheld a light above us in the air of exceeding brightness and behold an angel stood before us in his hands he held the plates which he we had been praying for these two have a view of they pray the angel shows up and he has the plates remember Martin Harris is not here at this time in the history of the church the same volume a page later Joseph Smith says I now left David and Oliver and went in pursuit of Martin Harris whom I found at a considerable distance fervently engaged in prayer we accordingly joined in prayer and ultimately obtained our desires for before we had finished the same vision was open to our view having thus through the mercy of God obtained these glorious manifestations what's happening here they are having visions or a vision of an angel holding place now you don't read anywhere at this time that they were touching any of these plates in fact if you read the story of the eleven witnesses it becomes very confusing because it gives you the impression that they saw the plates and handle them at the same time but that's not what they would say later on you see when they handled them they were in a box they were wrapped up they weren't really looking at anything that looked like plates they were holding something they were told were plates Joseph Smith did not let them see them with the naked eye they saw them in vision just the same as Joseph Smith claimed to have seen God the Father and Jesus Christ in vision how many Mormons will say well that's an argument for white we have purses and they have a body of flesh and bones how do you know that he never touched any of them they were in vision in fact I've actually found one Mormon apologist describing the first vision in the very same way as he's just as we find this as being described through supernatural eyes or with an eye of faith the question I bring up at this point and I've asked many latter-day saints this based on what is written in the volume Volume one of the history of the church when the angel Moroni shows up with the gold plates let's say I happen to be out in those same woods walking my dog would I have seen the gold plates I doubt it why because faith was very important and if you were going to see the gold plates and I'm just happened to walk by am I gonna see them if I can't see them they aren't there that's the point they're not there they are seeing them in a vision and again when they actually held the plates they were holding a box that Smith told them had the gold plates and I've got to be honest with you this is where I anger gets hot when it comes to Joseph Smith on this because when we hear the story of Emma and the plates she tells about how the plates were there on the table and how she they were wrapped up and how she used to run her fingers across the the the Leafs and they made a metallic sound Gold does not make a sound like that folks because it's too soft it thumps if we were to do that with these and they're very fragile and so don't do it but if you were to do that with leather gold they're very fragile in there and they're very dense and they thump they don't make a metallic sound they don't so whatever Emma thought she was running her fingers across they certainly were not gold plates but here's the thing I know Joseph Smith had something there's no doubt he had something but it certainly wasn't what most Mormons believed he had and the thing that really ticks me off about this is Emma never Peaks from what I understand whatever Emma never disobeyed her husband and took a peek and she never looked at the plates okay now now if she really am I missing something if she if she really believed her husband here's what irritates me a man that will lie to his wife will lie to anybody and yet Joseph Smith is actually lying to Emma telling him that he's got something he doesn't have and she I'm assuming believes him on this out there could be something written somewhere that I'm not known about where maybe she was part of it I don't know but I don't see that at least I'm not convinced of that at this point but the thing is is he's actually trying to tell this story to his own wife and and that just man that just makes me go white-hot and I have just no respect for Joseph Smith on that alone that he would not only lie to his friends about this but but lie to his wife on it as well David Whitmer said of course we were in the spirit when we had the view for no man can behold the face of an angel except in a spiritual view but we were in the body also and everything was as natural to us you see you got to understand they're using language they're not lying I I don't think they're lying I think they really thought they saw something I'm not doubting that III don't have any reason to doubt I'm just gonna take his words as it is but they had this belief at that time that the second sight that they could actually see things that didn't really exist but as far as they were concerned they were there and this is what he's saying he says everything was as natural to us as it is at any time Martin Harris called it being in vision a bright light enveloped us where we were and there in a vision or in the spirit we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon according to Marvin Hill LDS historian in an article that was written for dialogue a journal of Mormon thought an article titled Brody revisited a reappraisal he says the evidence is extremely contradictory in this area but there is a possibility that the three witnesses saw the plates in vision only the original testimony of these eight men in the Book of Mormon reads somewhat ambiguously not making clear whether they handled the plates or the leaves of the translated manuscript thus there are some puzzling aspects to the testimonies of the witnesses you see even their own historians when they're trying to be as honest with the facts as they can possibly be and I think Richard L Bushman in his book rough stone rolling I think he tries to be as honest as he possibly can be although when you read that at the beginning of the book he admits right off the bat that he is a latter-day saint and he does admit that it's it's difficult to be very objective sometimes because of that fact and when you read the book you tend to see what he does sometimes where he does tend to fudge a little bit cuz you know he'll say for an answer on there see this and they go to the EndNote and I've I've seen that and and where he's pointing me does not really answer the question but how many people really read in notes except maybe people like a lot of us in this room most people don't read endnotes we do and because I want to see where he's getting his information but it stands this way many latter-day saints have been told a story and they naturally want to believe the story but look how serious this is if there were no real gold plates then a lot of the stories that they hear in General Conference because I can't recall in General Conference anybody talking about Tom bout some Baga plates I mean they talk about this at BYU and in some of the BYU studies and things like that but this doesn't something you often hear you know from a General Conference standpoint there are some times it's mentioned in various magazines and such but apparently those aren't being read by very many of the lay membership in the Mormon Church many of them still believe that these plates were gold that's why they come up with a supernatural argument they know that even though they would have been heavy God would have given them the strength to do so and as you can see the apologists know better this is why they have to start adjusting the story to make it fit reality or at least their reality and of course that reality must encompass the fact that there were gold plates that did have engravings on it that were ancient that did come from Moroni we got him from Mormon and they were a record of ancient inhabitants and the sorts from whence they sprang because if they were not then the Book of Mormon is nothing more than what a lot of us have concluded and that is it's a 19th century novel that's all it is it is not ancient Scripture it does not need to be believed as Scripture there were no Nephites there were no Lamanites Jesus didn't come over to the Western Hemisphere it all becomes bogus and Joseph Smith becomes one of the biggest liars you could ever imagine for telling such a tall tale this is how important this is it's a very very important issue and sadly can I mean this all sincerely sadly a lot of people over thirteen and a half million latter-day saints do believe this is ancient Scripture and that in their mind makes Joseph Smith a prophet of God and I can tell you something you know I'm just talking to a friend about this just recently what drives you what keeps you doing this and I'll be quite honest with you the thought of millions of Mormons cursing Joseph Smith's name throughout eternity keeps me going because I don't want to see that I don't want to see that and and it's so sad because really it's all a testimony about a church it's a testimony about Joseph Smith and though the Mormon Church will you know claim that Jesus is the center of their church then I ask you if that's really the case why do so many ex-mormons when they find out Mormonism isn't true reject Jesus along with the church why do they do that I mean if there was a fault or something going on where I fellowship every Sunday that wouldn't cause me to reject Jesus you know I would already recognize there's already fallible people running his church here there's no doubt about that we're all fallible but it wouldn't cause me to reject Jesus because I have a testimony that he was alive that he did die that he did rise again from the dead it's hard to get rid of that but yet Mormons many times when they find out the church isn't true can throw that right in the trash with the rest of it and that's why we see so many ex-mormons becoming agnostic or becoming atheists and this is why it's so important folks to stay close to your Mormon friends because when they start to doubt you need to be there to guide them in the right direction we need to be there if you don't Richard Dawkins will Sam Harris will Christopher Hitchens will they know where to gravitate for those books because those books are popular they'll go down to the Barnes & Noble and boy they'll latch onto those as quickly as you can imagine they need us to be there when they start to have these doubts so that they can come to us ask those questions and hopefully we can give them the answer of that hope that lies within us shall we pray father we thank you for your goodness we thank you for your mercy in our lives and father though many of these things sound very foreign to us as Bible believing Christians some of them we can't help in forgive us but some of them sound actually quite comical it just seems so far-fetched that people in a 21st century world can believe some of these things but we have to understand that your word gives us the explanation for this it's because their eyes have been blinded there's no other explanation for this we're dealing with people that in every other aspect of their lives are very intelligent people very smart people and they're trying nothing more than to just be as good as they can with what they believe but Lord we recognized through your word that it doesn't matter how good we can possibly be we will never reach that standard of perfection that you desire that can only come through the imputation of the righteousness of your son added to our account and we come to you by faith that's the only way we're going to meet that standard and father we recognize that it can't be by anything that we have done by no goodness that we have performed it can only be done by a free act of grace on your part and we don't take that lightly we appreciate what you've done on our behalf we give you honor for what you've done on our behalf our desire here tonight Lord is that the Mormon people as sincere as they may be will come to know you as we do come before the cross of Christ and recognize that they have no good thing in their hands to give you all they have is sin and their shame and their burdens but Lord we also thank you for the fact that when we come to you with that kind of an attitude you are freely there to receive us and we thank you for that in Jesus name Amen amen goblet

Channel: Aaron Shafovaloff

Views: 50,531

Rating: 4.3904762 out of 5

Keywords: joseph, smith, gold, plates, capstone, conference, bill, mckeever

Id: zw2PuGq9arM

Length: 58min 5sec (3485 seconds)

Published: Tue May 04 2010