Jonathan Karl | Tired of Winning: Donald Trump and the End of the Grand Old Party

uh my name is Jason Freeman and I'm pleased uh to join you here to introduce tonight's guest Jonathan Carl Jonathan Carl is the author of The instant New York Times bestsellers front row at the Trump show and betrayal behind the scenes accounts of Donald Trump and his allies unprecedented actions while in office and the chaotic events that followed the 2020 presidential election if you didn't hear already uh the co-anchor of this week with George Stephanopoulos and chief Washington correspondent for ABC News he has also covered some of DC's most important beats including four presidential administrations Capitol Hill the Pentagon and the state department uh he was president of the White House correspondence Association from 2019 to 2020 and he earned the Walter kronite award for National individual achievement an Emy award and the Everett McKinley Dirkson award which is the high highest honor for Congressional reporting he joins us tonight with his latest book tired of winning Donald Trump and the end of the grand old party hold your hold your jeers or Applause uh rep with all new reportage this latest volume in our real life dystopic timeline examines the ways in which Trump has remolded the Republican party in his own image the damage he's left in his wake and his improbable Resurgence tonight's guest I wrote that line a while ago I had no idea we were even to hear tonight's guest will be joined in conversation with Tamila Edwards she is the anchor of the 6 ABC Action News Morning Edition as well as being a great friend to the library and one of our best most prolific interviewers Philadelphia please join me in welcoming tonight's guests to the Free [Applause] Library good evening good evening good evening I'm glad you're here and this is just fun John is an old friend so there's something special when you get to talk to someone you know and he's got friends and family his mom is here I want to see where's Mama Carl right over here there she is great thank you um and this is a wonderful uh I guess you could say book in because the last time we spoke for the Betrayal it was over the Internet yeah on Zoom Co because it was co uh and and now you're back with tired of winning and you know I wrote some general notes about the book and I wrote betrayal was an account tired of win winning feels like a warning yeah and it feels as though volatility I saw you say somewhere that so much volatility to know about and as you read about the book you know it's like he's governing like a pingpong ball full of away from propriety or traditions and I wrote this down it's like governing in free verse like there no rules here and then there's the way that those close to him assess him and I wanted you to read a note that we marked from somebody after the documents were found in marago yeah uh yeah just to set this up this was in the process of first of all I talk to everybody around Trump uh and so for all like the vilification of the press and the and the way that he's personally vilified me and other of my colleagues who covered him first of all he was often very accessible himself but the people around him in some ways it was the most transparent Administration you could possibly have I mean all of it in its chaos was there for you to see so as I was writing this um I reached out to somebody who had spent over a year uh working at a very senior level in the west wing with Trump virtually every day um serious person and I wanted to get this person's assessment of what was going on on and and we we had a series of conversations but then I I called him up after uh all of the sorted details came out about the classified documents that he had pilfered and brought down to uh to maral Lago and this person seemed really troubled in a in a in a you know very in a really big way and he told me uh that that when the news came out and he saw it he went to his computer and he just started writing a note to himself this is somebody who has never gone public with his criticism of trump he's actually left politics since leaving the white house so he's not one of these The Usual Suspects this isn't like you know people like John Kelly who have gone out there and and you know and have turned on him in a very public way this is somebody that just left and just left it behind him and this is what he wrote to himself and then I of course I asked hey could you you mind sending that to me um again senior official in the Trump westwing for more than a year he lacks any shred of human decency humility or caring he is morally bankrupt breathlessly dishonest lethally incompetent and stunningly ignorant of virtually anything related to governing history geography human events or world affairs he is a traitor and a malignancy in our nation and represents a clear and present danger to our democracy and to the rule of law that's somebody who served Donald Trump [Applause] um and I was like wow okay then yeah you know you lay out a lot of things in betrayal you know that are sort of pre-stage where we are right now he was volatile then he switched between topics 15 times a day people kept things from him things were nonsensical it was no clear sense of governing is it worse is it discernibly worse now compared to as you were finishing up betrayal so worse is a is a judgment ment that as a journalist I I I don't like to make um but the answer is yes and let me explain why I'm able to answer that as a as a as a journalist um you know look I I'm a reporter I've known Donald Trump um for you know I first did a story on him in 1994 so I mean we're we're coming on 30 years um I did the first Network interview with him of the 2016 cycle was back in 2013 two years before the escalator um I always I went into covering that I happened to be in the white house so bizarre to having been with him as a young reporter in New York and then and he was kind of good copy I mean he was somebody I could like after I I mean there's a whole story in the first book I wrote about how you know I at first came into contact with him but he was somebody that I could like call up and he would always get back to almost immediately and um you know he was kind of entertaining you never really took him too seriously uh but then to think he's back back he's at the White House I'm a White House correspondent not only that I'm the incoming president of the White House correspondence Association well I took it very seriously the idea I'm going to treat him fairly um I doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree with anything he's doing I'm going to stick to the facts and I think there were a lot of reporters um who got caught into a a war with him because heed war on us you're the enemy of the people and you get into this back and forth I'm not it's not my job it doesn't who cares what I think of the of of the president I'm there to report what's actually going on but um you know as things as things continue to get Stranger in that white house you know that there are certain things you have to just say what it is I mean what I like to say is is as a reporter and you're a one of the great reporters we work together and it's so cool to be here on the stage with you and and and and we've we've been together on campaigns and I mean I so you know that that it's the core of our being to be fair and balanced to try to strive for objectivity in so far as we possibly can um but I think that years from now whether it's two years from now or 20 years from now or 50 years from now we will be judged the first question they're not going to ask is were you fair to Donald Trump they're going to ask did you say what the truth was and did you pursue the truth and um but you know I'm sorry for the long answer but it's it's it's it's it is he I think is more prone to destroy the Norms of of American democracy now than he was when he came in and more importantly than that so he's changed in a way and a little angrier and a little more maybe a lot more bent on things like Vengeance and retribution he says it this is not again I'm not making a value judgment here I'm describing what he says um but the but maybe more importantly there is nobody left around him like this guy who I just quoted who was there because he wanted you know whoever the president is the president needs to have good people around him and you had people who felt it was their Duty in a trump White House to try to prevent him from doing damage to himself politically uh and to the country and they would kind of steer him in One Direction or the other or maybe take an order and not quite you know we'll put this over here for now there's a story in one of Woodward's books about Gary con um there's a you know a letter of some kind in order on on the Resolute desk and con literally grabs it off the desks and put it in his pocket and knows that Trump's going to be off to something else anyway in the next 5 minutes and you know try to but those people are gone those people are a second Trump term is going to be run by a character that's in this book you'll read a lot about named Johnny mckinty um who um you know is is going to be the guy I mean one one of the people who is going to be ensuring that the people that serve Trump in that West Wing and in the uh various agencies of the federal government are loyal their first and most important qualification is loyalty uh to Trump as as one of Johnny mcan's uh you know former uh he he was a guy that ran presidential personnel as a 30-year-old in in the um in the last year of the Trump White House and one of his uh one of the one of the other kids younger who brought in said you know the funny thing is you can teach policy but you can't teach loyalty so it's more important we just need loyalty and then we'll worry about the policy and we should point out that most people when they take these jobs take an oath to be loyal to the Constitution not to an individual and it was interesting in reading the book that I could see between the two books how I pushed you if I were to do a subtitle on the first one it would be betrayal here's what I saw and this one would have been tired of winning guys this is batshit um it very different and I knew given your stance on so many things what it took to push you into that place where you felt you needed to say it how much as I read through this and you tell these stories I found myself wondering how much is it Chaos Agent and how much of it is intentional let's say the issue of race you tell the story about him going to CPAC and giving a very dark speech that ends with and for those who have been wronged and betrayed I am your retribution I am your retribution the next day you talked to Steve bannett and he starts calling it the come retribution speech and you realize that's not an accident those were code words used by the Confederate secret service for a plot to kidnap and kill Abraham Lincoln do you hear what she's saying this is really insane stuff but I wondered Bannon knows that but does Trump know that Trump when he's sitting with Nick FES and Kanye West says I have no idea one's an anti-semite and one's a fascist racist I have no idea of what's going on and often he really does seem to be out of it he doesn't really know what's going on he knows those people vote too and little things are like Treats but it's not like Bannon who's intellectual and means to do it is he a Chaos Agent or is he intentional well I I think that Trump's entire focus is about Trump I mean and that's not a unique or you know it's not a new observation um so I think that Bannon is such an important figure and he comes through and I and I sat with Bannon actually for hours in the uh in the process writing this as I told you I talk to everybody around him Trump not I mean everybody that I could and most of them I was able to uh Bannon I think is one of the most important because he provides an intellectual framework for what Trump is all about which is just whatever is best for Trump um and it's a dark dark vision on the come retribution point I mean he kept on using that phrase and I I thought he was just he was giving a label title for the speech that clearly and by the way this was The Rebirth of the Trump campaign you know the Trump campaign was announced exactly one year ago today in maralago I was there it was pathetic uh nobody came I mean none of his former not a single confirmed Cabinet member of his of his you know most of his family skipped it vonka wasn't there uh you know Tiffany just got married so I guess she had a good excuse um uh you know Don Jr you know he he had just been there for Tiffany's wedding which was at maral Lago that weekend it was a Tuesday was the announcement and um you know he um so this was kind of a sad Affair I even and I got video of this which because I knew people wouldn't believe me people started to leave his speech early this is people at maral Lago for his presidential announcement and they start leaving and it starts to get you know a few people and a few it's kind of like when you're at a bad baseball game you know you know the Phillies are losing leav in the seventh inning you know and you're like you want to beat traffic um and then they started blocking people from leaving they said it was security you know security concerns I've never heard of security where you can't leave where the guy they're trying to protect is you know um but anyway he so if you go back to polling from December of last year you'll find that Ron DeSantis in a hypothetical Republican primary because D santis hadn't announced yet is is ahead uh he's well over Wall Street Journal a poll December 14th of last year it's the santis and the 50s about 20 points ahead of trump in the 30s he his campaign had a rebirth with the come retribution speech because when he announced it was all this kind of warmed over stuff he read it was teleprompter prompt Trump you know talking about policies that he didn't care about or believe in but when he was starting to talk about going after and rooting out the enemies he didn't use the word verman but he might as well have going out and getting our enemies the Rhinos the the the the the people you know the FBI I mean he goes after chapter and verse we're going to get these people out we're going to we're going to I'm going to go after the people that are coming after me because their real Target is you and I'm standing in the way so I'm and and it gives a new energy to his to his campaign but Bannon keeps using the words come retribution and then I realize that that it is this Confederate code word that was used for a um you know plot the plot to Assassin first kidnapped and assassinate Abraham Lincoln of the Confederate Secret Service so I I find out there's a book called come retribution that came out in the 80s by some Civil War historians all about this so I asked banon and he's like oh it's a great book you got to read that and then when the story came out where I you know CU I when when the book when we first put out the first chapter that had this come retribution and there was all this Confederacy and all this banon like shot me message like I hope you I hope you pointed out the predicate like what do you mean Steve what are you talking about well it was because Lincoln had called for a plot against Jefferson Davis and the entire Confederate I'm like dude I mean we're like okay Confederate imagery in you know 2024 campaign was was was really was really something else but but but I I don't think Trump has any idea what come retribution is but when he but eventually when I come out with a story that says it he knows it he knows what what it all is now and he knows that there's you know he knows it all what has he done over the past two weeks since the blood and Vermin does he understand when he says that does he know I mean he's he's gone further in so when he when David Duke endorsed his campaign in 2016 um Chris Christie and rs prous well first it was RS who was you know RNC chair at the time you know you got to denounce this guy man you got to denounce this endorsement you got this is Terri this is terrible and you know and Trump's blown off so so RS goes to Chris Christie and says come on you you've got more influence with him you got to tell him he's got it he's got to this is terrible this is killing us so that's when you have the famous line chrisy goes and tells Trump you have to to denounce David Duke he blows him off later later later and then he saids okay I'll do it but remember those people vote too so I don't think Donald Trump is a Neo-Nazi like David Duke but I think that he wants all of those votes and he's not he has no desire in denouncing it but in 2016 he did denounce eventually David Duke and renounce the endorsement Kanye West comes for dinner at maralago and brings Nick Fuentes a white supremacist what a combination you have the anti-semite and then white supremacist walking to marago sounds like the beginning of some terrible joke and endless coverage about how in the world did either one of these people come in and dine with the guy that just you know just days ago announced he was running for president and um there's no denouncing whatsoever that's because there's no Chris Christie or R Prius around to say dude you got to get away from this he said nothing critical of either one of them in fact today Trump put out a long statement attacking me for of all the stuff I wrote In the book all this Darkness about Confederate codes and and Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing what's the one thing that really that he decided to attack me on today there was an anecdote about Kim Kardashian in my uh in my book but he noticed that he like he thinks he's team Kanye he kind of put that in the yeah yeah yeah he's like I would have done it for Kanye but not for her she's the most overrated uh she voted for Joe Biden I mean you know K you know Kanye may have praised Adolf Hitler but Kim Kardashian voted for Joe Biden at least I think she did I mean I mean anyway so by the way can can I interject just because I I so you'll see a little thing in the book uh I wrote a book um in it came out in 1995 so this is the year after I met Trump and uh I asked him for a little blurb for my book not for the actual book it was just for my book party invitation my College buddy Scott Alexander is here he was at the party my brother's here M you know it's was like a family and friends kind of a thing was a paperback book but it was about it was about the militia movement in the Oklahoma City bombing and I I I just I I was putting together a book party I I had the invitation I figured hey Will trump I called him up would you give me a quote I'll send you the book over if you like it so he gave me a quote he actually asked me to write it but he approved it so here it is so it's a great quote I just put it in um what a book Carl is one of the best in the business tough fair and brutally honest I mean that's like I mean that's good don't Trump so he put out a statement today as I said in addition to praising Kanye West um he says this about me he says um uh Carl just Jonathan Carl just wrote another bad book he works so hard and has so little Talent some people have it and some people don't I mean mean you know well at least he wrote it himself versus asking he definitely wrote it himself yeah yeah that was like yeah you know a couple of uh your colleague George Stephanopoulos was in the news interviewing Steve scalise who asked five times could not say Joe Biden is the duly elected president it is a thing Tom emmer couldn't be speaker of the house because he said it's not true Joe Biden is the president so we have a speaker who has been an election denier it's a thing yep and you wonder how got lead election denier I mean johnon was tip of the spear in the story in this uh book you tell a story about Kevin McCarthy who starts out saying this we're done with him I refuse he goes to Mara Lago many people see that is the beginning of the road back for Trump when that picture is taken of Kevin McCarthy in Mar Lago and you told a story that I hadn't heard before that McCarthy claimed he was down there for some other reason went to say hi and got jumped by photographers we know he's not the most honest person do you believe him you know I actually think McCarthy is sort of telling the truth uh not I mean I I think there's there's a little shading to this but I believe that Kevin McCarthy by the way this happened eight days after Trump left the White House and you have to go back to that time he was Persona on gr he didn't go to Biden's uh inauguration as I reported you know he said he wasn't going to go but as I reported Mitch mccon was already working with the Congressional leadership to disinvite him uh from going to the inauguration but he became the first outgoing president to skip a presidential inauguration of a successor since Andrew Johnson in 1868 by the way another guy that was impeached um but um um m m McCarthy goes he does have fundraisers in Florida but he does reach out to say he wants to to go and see Trump which was a major gesture and it it angered a lot of fellow House Republicans who were like okay we finally got that guy out of town um but he decides to go and if you look at the photo that we've now all seen a thousand times it's such an iconic photo of of of this Trump comeback it's in the book it's all over the place and you know of in in that main lobby of marago of McCarthy and Trump I mean look at the look at the facial expression on McCarthy what he what he told people in the immediate aftermath this I got there and like the first thing he does is he calls over a photographer and I'm like what what and then you can tell like the photo is like quickly taken and news of the meeting leaked out before McCarthy left marago so the Trump trump and the couple of people that were still with him were eager to put that out immediately to say you see he still has juice would it have made a difference if more time had gone by with nobody coming to see him nobody standing next to him so I think this is a really good question and I I I think that there are two pivotal moments that maybe maybe could have made a difference that is one of them if you didn't have the Republican leader in the house uh go down and keep in mind McCarthy made that trip as we were waiting for the Senate impeachment trial to start and it was a senate impeachment trial where there were stories about McConnell there was reporting by my friend Jonathan Martin in the New York Times uh that and entirely accurate that that McConnell himself was struggling with whether or not he would vote to convict Trump and there were I remember doing the math and trying to figure out could there be 67 votes could there be 17 Republican Senators who would vote to convict and you know it wasn't in end up there ended up being seven which is the massive high water mark for president you know I mean we've only had a we haven't had a lot of impeachment trials actually we've had a lot lately um but um but I I so I think that could have made a difference if M if McCarthy had said instead you know what we're just going to kind of ignore him and let him go off his way he was persona non got out Fox so he was he was gone from Twitter I mean he was a silent guy in Mara Lago uh who had started dejing his own parties literally there's some stuff in there about this literally I mean it really got weird I I have a chapter called dark days at Mar Lago so yes I think that made a difference but there's another very pivotal moment and that is 8 days earlier when Trump leaves in the morning of the 20th before Biden's inauguration he's still president he kind of leaves the White House they have a little makeshift gathering for him at Andrews Air Force Base again none of the White House staff except for you know Mark Meadows uh Steven Miller I think was there Sean Spicer somehow found his way even though he hadn't worked in the white house for a few years but I mean there wasn't nobody really came they literally brought people in from outside of Andrews like like there were Trump supporters there to say goodbye you want to come in and come to the event um and he goes up the stairs to go on Air Force One to be taken home his last trip as president Ron McDaniel the chair of the of the Republican Party calls him up just to say she wasn't there either by the way now she had sprained her ankle I think it was so that's why she wasn't there but she calls to say hey farewell you know we did we we accomplished a lot of good things it's kind of a gracious goodbye and he starts berating her puts her on speaker phone Don Jr is with up in the in the uh president's office on Air Force One and uh he says I'm leaving the party I'm done with you if you people had fought harder for me I'd still be president and she flips out and I described the conversation in some detail first reported in betrayal she flips out and says you can't do that you're going to hurt the people who um you're going to hurt the people who who did all this for you and we're never going to win and you're never going to win and this will be the terrible thing and his answer to her is you deserve to lose because you didn't fight hard enough for me okay over the next five days she and the leadership at the RNC first beg him not to leave and then make a series of essentially threats to him if you leave first of all remember we're paying your legal bill still you're getting those back and most of the money you make is by with this mailing list you know the great Data Bank of of of of trump and Republican voters and supporters well guess what we're going to make that worthless by giving it to the world for free that's where so it was going to cost him millions of dollars if he left what if Ron McDaniel had said by go ahead started new party he's not Trump now you know now he's got like a if I mean he's he's Trump then and the calculation that they made was that if Trump left he would bring his supporters and Republicans would not win in future elections and look what's happened they didn't do it and Trump and Republicans have not won they they they've underperformed in all those elections McCarthy made the calculation if I'm going to become speaker of the house I'm going to need Trump's support he became Speaker of the House for a minute I mean I'm not sure it worked out and he's never had so many headaches a key thing for Trump over and over and over and over every relationship comes down to agreeing with him that the election was stolen we know from your previous book the idea that was that he understood he knew he had lost and it's so it was like trying to find him a graceful exit Mark Meadows we have to figure out how to land the plane then he goes into this thing and won't back down and you you ask yourself does he know it's a lie and he doesn't care or has he genuinely convinced himself that he won or the election was stolen it's such a good question and I've spent a lot of time thinking about it um Jack Smith has makes the case essentially that he knows it was uh a lie and therefore he's actively he actively sought to overturn an election that he knew he lost Liz Cheney felt this very strongly and made the case in the January 6 hearings I'm not so sure I I I think that he knew he lost in the immediate aftermath and there's reasons to believe that and I've talked to people I mean I talked to one I wish I could tell you who but I just can't um but I talked to one you know senior Republican in Congress who told me you know about a week or so after the election when things were starting to get really weird with r Giuliani and the whole thing who told me you know give him time he's he's he's a man who knows he lost it's tough on him um so I think that there was and and I remember you know kellyanne Conway at the time was telling me that there she she would she said you know there's he's not going to give a concession speech but he is going to give a speech that's going to you know look a little bit like a not conceding he lost but like acknowledging that there's a Changing of the Guard but I think that as things got on he became uh to I mean he he was the one actively pursuing some of the most outlandish conspiracy theories um he was the one I mean one of my favorites uh it's a strange way to describe it but um I don't know what else to say uh this I I did a lot of this in in betrayal and there's there's some new information on and here the one of these theories was that the the Italians had these milit Ary spy satellites right and they were used to switch votes on these on these voting machines and that there were it gets better because there were there were these two guys who knew it all and were ready to blow the whistle at this Italian defense contractor um and they're in they were in jail in um in in Rome and some prison in Rome so they could they kept silent and like Trump was obsessed with this thing so I asked him about it in an interview that I did with him it's the very last time I spoke to him um uh in the summer of of 2021 and um I was like you you don't because here's what I found out I found out that that Mark Meadows had asked the Department of Justice the acting attorney general to investigate this this this can you look into this um and then I found out and that that came out of some Congressional uh investigations pre pre- January 6th Comming emails from the Department of Justice that's how that came out um but then I found out that he on a Saturday I think it was January 2nd of 2021 he Meadows convened a meeting of the acting defense secretary and the head of the defense intelligence agency Lieutenant General barrier and asked can we send somebody over our defense adese to this prison in Rome to talk to these two guys so I asked him I said Mark Meadows was doing this I mean do you know why he was why he was doing this and he like you'd have to ask Mark I've got the tape it's amazing I you'd have to ask Mark I don't know Mark's a good guy good Chief you know really really good one of the best I don't know why I you have to ask Mark you have to ask Mark and I was like you don't you don't really think Italian spy satellit switched votes do you he's like well you know you'd have to ask the people that are saying that you'd have to ask the you know I mean I don't know I mean I'm tell this there was a heck of a lot of fraud so he started to get sucked into whatever he could grasp onto and then as you read the book The question is does he actually want the job you notice you note that he announces and then for 63 days straight his main campaign activity is going to play golf that doesn't sound like somebody who really deep down wants it yep yeah I mean it's really interesting I mean he well he did more than play golf he did dine with Kanye West and Nick Fuentes he did sell these non fundable tokens nfts you remember those that was during this time period um there were he did put out a truth social post calling for the suspension of the US Constitution so he was thinking policy um um but it wasn't it was in a I I think it's important to kind of see the Arc of this reelection campaign this historic effort by a defeated former president to come back and get reelected because yes those 60 so some days he did not leave a trump property except to go to another Trump property to play golf but on those Trump properties he was able to do some of this other activity but then again he gets this birth of this campaign as the indictments are coming down and suddenly this is a campaign about retribution and revenge does he want the job I don't think so but I think he wants retribution and revenge and he wants to vindicate himself because he thinks that above all that his Secret Sauce in business and in politics and the reason why he has been successful and he will say he's much more successful than he actually was but he's been successful is because he comes across like a guy that doesn't lose I'm the winner I mean it was an image he maintained and still continued to license his name as he was going through six bankruptcies four of them casinos um so I think that that is why he is that's why he cannot accept anybody that acknowledges Biden's Victory because it's an acknowledgement that he lost and he believes I believe that those people that support him so fervently will not support him if they see that he had lost now I think you and I have both covered a lot of politicians that lost some really close and hardfought campaigns in my opinion the some of the greatest speeches that I have ever seen have been by people who lost and I'll give you two quick examples it was McCain in 2008 loses to Obama and when he mentions Obama's name the crowd starts booing and hissing and he's like no no he's going to be our president now and our success is based on his success uccess we need to hope that he is successful and give him everything he needs that's McCain much more eloquent than I just did that was John McCain in 2008 the other one the 2000 campaign um I spent a lot of time with Al Gore I spent fair amount of time with George W bush I was with the gore campaign throughout that recount and when the Supreme Court shut down the Florida recount there were people there in Democratic party that were ready to you know grab pitchforks um and Al Gore gave the greatest speech I think of his entire political career when he conceded and wished uh uh George W bush all the luck and called in his supporters to Rally around what was going to be the new president for me it was covering Bill Bradley and it's always the experience of if that guy had just shown up it might be different um two quick questions before we go to the crowd because of course I think what a lot of people are wondering they read these polls they see RFK jumping in Jill Stein jumping in uh the question of course is um Mitt Romney could he be talked into it John Huntsman so this thing could go any way and one of the ways it could go is Trump is back and Bill bar said this about the prospect of what would happen when it comes to policy and governing he does not have the discipline he does not have the ability for strategic thinking and linear thinking or setting priorities or how to get things done in the system it's a horror show you know when he's left to his own devices and so you may want his policies but Trump will not deliver Trump policies he will deliver chaos and if anything lead to a backlash that will set his policies much further back than they would otherwise be what does it actually look like dayto day if he's president again uh you know first of all just an observation that's Bill bar um who was you know defended Trump throughout the Mueller investigation basically tried to undermine the Mueller report when it came out as conservative as it gets Republican to the core and listen to what he's saying and this gets to the point of my Anonymous guy who is not Bill bar as I said this is not somebody who's criticized him but it's it's that you the most searing criticism and the and the loudest warning about what Trump to would look like come from people like Bill bar who have seen him up the closest um I I look the only thing I would one thing I would take issue with with Bar's quote there is the idea of trump policies it's not really clear what Trump policies are I mean there's some broad brush Strokes that he's talked about you know build the wall tariffs on our trading partners beat up on our allies um you know bring troops home um unless he wants to go and have nuclear war against North Korea before I mean it it goes It goes all over the place um and I I I don't think that there is um a clear sense of what of what those actual policies look like beyond what he's actually talking about which is retribution and revenge one of the stories that's interesting to and installing loyalist but loyalist for what well I wonder about that as my last question to you because one of the stories that's come out now that these tapes have been released out of Georgia of uh Sydney Powell and Jenna Ellis and others talking and Sydney Powell is upset because she tells the story of Donald Trump saying give her CR itial and Paton is like hell no I'm not doing that right in front of him and it made me wonder at some point does the establishment finally there's a massive thump back I was listening to George Conway on the way over here and he's talking about the establishment of the rule of law Society you have this entire generation in apparatus of conservative thoughtful Michael ludic others is there if he wins almost like a sonic boom that comes from because it won't the Democrats can't do it it would have to be the Republicans I mean you you have Republicans like the ones you just mentioned who are trying to sound that sonic boom right now and by the way again these are not like you know we likes to call them rhinos this we're not talking about these are not like weak needed moderates who are like you know blow with the wind these are like some real conservative I mean Michael ludik was on the short list you know to be on the Supreme cour Court uh kind of the kind of the the dream Justice for for people on the far right really solid guy very conservative guy um and you know he's certainly been been sounding line I'll give another one Charles KO uh the the the last remaining of the Koch brothers at least the coch brothers involved in politics um is is funding an effort I mean and it's him and others that he gets to to donate to it to try to expand the re the electorate in Republican primaries in the early States so not it's not a voter registration drive but what he's noticed is in well it's obvious that in these in these primaries it's only the hardcore of the party that turns out to vote and surprise surprised that's what you get um and in this case it's the Trump people they're definitely going to vote in in in Iowa New Hampshire and and South Carolina and Nevada so they're trying to do a big effort to reach out to other Republicans who would normally not be paying attention this time of year and say get out there and vote with the idea that if you expand it you know somebody other than Trump can win I mean but I don't know I mean I think it gets to be late if you're saying if after he wins I don't know what kind of a Som Sonic Boom you can do from the uh from outside in the Pennsylvania Avenue in Lafayette Square or something think you don't think no matter how it turns out you don't think he makes it back to 1600 well look I have also said that it's it is absolutely possible that he gets back I think it is highly I think it's I think that I think it's there's a lot between now and there and he's got um I mean the one reason why I think you're starting to see Joe Biden really engage uh on on Trump now again is they realize that this election no matter how unpopular Biden may or may not be by next November uh if Trump is the nominee they think that they can win by running against Trump the people will you know and the negatives I mean it's whether it whether or not he's got one two or three or four convictions um that that that he is eminently beatable in a general election but it's scary if you are a if you are a Democrat or if you are just somebody who who fears what a a second Trump term would look like to be thinking you're going in and you're like I mean who knows yeah I mean there weren't a lot of people that thought he was going to win in 2016 so he could win but what I'm saying separately is we're still actually a fair bit of time away from Iowa and New Hampshire that primary is not over I think that there I mean one of the reasons why I didn't write this book to sway an election but I wrote this book is if you know if you are going into to vote in this election know what you are voting about understand what it is this isn't like this kind of some sleepy we're going to go back to 2019 preco when inflation was low and you know there wasn't war in the Middle East and Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine you know that you need to understand what it's going to be um and I think that far too many far too few people have really understood not only just what Trump was but what he could potentially be in a second term I think you need to be prepared every now and then for people to stick their head out the window and just scream and you won't know why but you will know why as we go through this next year and Jane mayor I'd love this line as she ended the New Yorker podcast this week no matter what happens expect surprises and maybe some of them could be good yeah expect surprises quick statement and question um I never get to see someone of your H stature and um Authority and you walked out on stage you look so young in person you really do okay oh and and question one of the criterias to be president is you have to be at least 35 years old and there's other criteria yeah do you have an opinion on the other side that's sometimes being talked about when is it too old to run for president yeah um Nikki Haley's out there with this proposal you have a mental acuity test basically for any anybody over 75 which neatly encompasses both Trump and Biden um by do you know how old Mitt Romney is 72 76 I mean the guy looks like he's like in you know he looks he looks like 25 years younger than than than Biden um I I I don't I don't think you you would ever be able to do that first of all as a practical matter have like an age limit but I also think that it's not age uh you know Anthony fouchy um remember him seeing throughout you know throughout uh uh covid guy you know he's 79 into 80 81 he was 82 now how old is I mean he's out there he's still you know he speed walks or runs all the time and he's I so I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's the number um I really don't what I'm interested in is your comments on why it is or what your explanation is for the fervent support that he has now you say if he lost if he acknowledged that he'd lost he'd lose a lot of that support you also suggested perhaps a lot of people haven't U acquired the information that you set forth in your in your books but uh I in my experience I've encountered people who are who should know better and yet there there is this fervent support for him why is that it's it's complicated I think there I think there are multiple levels to it um I I think that part of it is that he annoys all the right people you know and it's if you are really frustrated with if you think that that the system has screwed you and you see you know in your perception the elites are are are doing great our wages are stagnant uh you know we we're we're boxed out of of opportunity um and these people talk down to us um and here comes this guy who kind of doesn't care what people think and he's insulting all the people that you'd like to get up there and maybe insult and so I think there's kind of a raw appeal um to that he's also he and this is what I think initially got him going is there was definitely an entertainment Factor um I mean in that primary going back to 2016 going back to 2015 before he really solidified it you know Jeb Bush was like the was going to be the big front runner um I mean Jeb Bush was so carefully stage managed every speech was the same you know I not exactly but I mean basically um you knew what you know what you were going to get with the Jeb Bush thing he didn't do many interviews except with you know he's very careful about who he would do interviews with and here's Trump he's doing like 20 interviews a day and you come out and God knows what he's going to say um and it was just kind of like a break and it was a break from so but now fast forward to today part of it is still he's angering all the right people to a certain segment of the population but I also think that that that in in some of these polls that you see which don't really mean this much this far out they really don't but they can scare you if you're fearing what it would look like if he came back um is just the same like it's a variation of the are you better off four years you know than you were four years ago and people look back and you know preco economy was strong world was at peace I mean look there were a lot of problems pre but but but what's true is most of the drama in the world was coming out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and we didn't have thank God you know pre-co we didn't have a major crisis so I think there's a lot of it you know Peggy newon put it this way I thought it was kind of smart it's like people want 2019 back they might not want Donald Trump back but they want 2019 back that is a good yeah well because many people would say if he'd handle the pandemic differently he'd be president and actually the election denying a lot of election deniers lost while people who acknowledge the election won I wonder if he had been willing to say I lost but don't you miss me oh my God he he'd probably be like sailing away yeah yeah just to extend the previous question um one thing about Donald Trump is that he's not subtle he tells you what he thinks he tells you what he's going to do and then in his own way he goes about doing it given the truth of that statement and the fact that he is right out there what does that say about the American people that they're willing to give this man a second chance I used to think that the American people were different than the Germans in the 1930s I no longer feel that way and I was wondering what your perspective is on that thank you such a dark question um but I it's one a lot of people are asking um and um look I I don't think that there is much of an ideology around Donald Trump I think that Steve Bannon you know has tried to put one on him um and I think that he he wears it and if the crowd responds he feels good about it and this retribution notion you know you know people like and I think that people are I think what what this whole episode has shown is that people are willing to to destroy what we thought were norms and customs of American democracy maybe because they think they haven't worked for them I don't necessarily think it's because there's a mass movement of fascists and the wings waiting to uh waiting to take over but but they have but there's great contempt for the things that you know are that have been sacred in American democracy um and that's and that's frightening because those are look what I the conclusion that I came to in really going through and trying to construct what happened after the election and then lead up to January 6th what the conclusion that I came to is that we found that our system of laws as constructed right here in this not far from here um is a pretty good system but it depends on people in positions of responsibility ility to act responsibly it depends on there being good people in government now we have a system designed to protect against bad people so we have checks and balances but if the leadership um is willing to just say screw it what do you do so I think we could have had a much bigger crisis on January 6th and during that entire transition if it weren't for the fact that there were good people good people right around Donald Trump maybe people that a lot of folks didn't think were good people uh certainly a lot of Democrats thought were just as bad as Trump and all this who stood up and did the right thing you know Pence is is the most obvious and glaring example um but Pat syon who was the White House Council and his fellow lawyers in the White House count in the council's office uh there was a guy named Chris Liddell who was in charge of the transition and I described it as kind of running a clandestine operation in the uh second floor of the West Wing to create a a transition to a Biden Administration and keeping it making sure the boss didn't get too much uh too much wind of what was going on they worked to ensure that things would continue to move in the way that were supposed to move even if the guy on top had no desire for any of it and that's why it's troubling to think about what it's like if there's a second one and those people are rooted out the ones that are insufficiently loyal um but I I I have more faith in in I'm despite the way despite what we're facing I I I am optimistic and I'm optimistic in part because of all of those who stood up and did the right thing when faced with this crisis and you know we've gota we got to have some faith in that thank you um I want to start with uh building on what that uh nice lady said um I want to tell you how annoyed I am at you for hearing my wife tell me how much she loves you constantly okay so thanks for that uh but my question actually goes directly on your last words um thank God there were leaders and responsible people but what about you know Paul Ryan who resigned uh what about uh you know McConnell who really has not done a lot what about yeah are yeah who's The Speaker of the House these days I don't know um you know pick a speaker of the house I mean Tamila talked about this sonic boom yeah where are the Republicans other than Liz Cheney by the way where are they she she she's not around anymore she resigned well no she didn't resign she lost well she lost she fought and lost and what she do and it is different I mean she you know she went and she was the most popular political figure in Wyoming and she stood up to Donald Trump the way that she did and he put her at the top of the list of the people to take out and then she lost by 30 some points in a Republican primary stay um I think that there is a uh I think there is something to that um I think I think that McConnell um I mean Liz Cheney has some some very complicated views of of of of McConnell I mean McConnell stood his ground on January 6th among other times but specifically this idea that that the Republicans were going to vote to reject certified electoral votes that were sent in by the states and had done all the things properly and were signed by the governors and I mean and and ratified by the secretaries of state and all and and we're going to vote as members of Congress to reject those votes on what Authority we're going to tell the people in Michigan their votes don't count because we think there's fraud even though you guys don't think there was you know McConnell stood his ground and he said he got up before the Republican Senators and he said this is the most important vote you'll take because this is about it all so McConnell yes there were many he blocked blocked the GU the formation of a commission independent commission to into January 6th he you know he delayed the the impeachment trial he ended up voting not to convict and saying that you know he didn't think you could convict have a trial for an ex president even though you know he had kind of helped to make that trial not happen while he was still president um but McConnell on in a couple of very important Point moments stood his ground by the way he's not going to be around much longer either um as we walk off the stage this was the last thing I wrote for you it's election night and Trump wins what goes through your mind and what do you do the next day can I can I think about that one and get back to you I I haven't I I I don't know if I have I don't know if I have a good answer for you yet on that one I'm gonna have to all right you know it's a hypothetical and and you covered enough politicians as you say I'm not answering a hypothetical all right Jonathan Carl thank you for being here thank you thank you

Channel: Author Events

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Length: 58min 13sec (3493 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 17 2023