♪ (Applauding)
>> STEVE PAIKIN: Hi, everybody. I want to tell you the story of
a little 14-year-old kid who
used to come home from school every day and watch, with his
mother, these congressional
hearings that were looking into something called Watergate. And the kid was 14, so he really
didn't know a lot about what was
going on. But he sure heard the name "Bob
Woodward" a lot during the
course of all of those hearings. Fast forward about four years
later, and that kid managed to
get himself a part-time job at his hometown newspaper. Probably because he heard the
name "Bob Woodward" a lot. And fast forward about oh, I
don't know, 45 years after that,
and he's standing out here in front of you today. So, you got to know... (Applauding)
...you got to know how
absolutely cool it is for me to be able to say, ladies and
gentlemen, Mr. Bob Woodward. (Applauding) There we go. Lovely. >> BOB: Thank you so much. >> STEVE: You made it. >> BOB: I did. >> STEVE: No trouble with the
weather? >> BOB: Well, I would have been
disappointed to miss the
waterboarding. (Steve laughing)
>> STEVE: You're not about to be
water-boarded. >> BOB: Okay, good. Okay. >> This is going to be a very
wonderful conversation. I've listened to all the tapes. Just as a bit of background
here, this is the transcript of
the Trump tapes, which consist of hours and hours of phone
calls that Mr. Woodward made to
the then president of the United States, Donald Trump. Rather than have you start, why
don't we listen to a little bit
of your work? >> BOB: Thank you. >> STEVE: Shall we do that? >> BOB: Good. Great. >> STEVE: Our director, if
you've ever watched<i> The
Agenda,</i> his name is-- >> AUDIENCE MEMBER: Sheldon. >> Sheldon. That's right. Sheldon, could we hear the
first clip, please, of the
Trump tapes? >> DONALD TRUMP: The picture
there? >> BOB: Oh, wow. >> TRUMP: Like, the howitzer
type. You know? So, it was a whole thing. >> STEVE: Okay, there we go. Talking about Kim Jong-un and
the North Korean missile tests. And let's start with that. About why the president
wanted to do an interview with
you, so many interviews with you. Because you know, Karl Rove
said--
Where's the quote here? "Every administration
participates with Bob Woodward
and lives to regret it." (Audience members laughing)
And President Trump himself kept
joking during your phone calls. "I know you're going to trash
me. I know you're going to trash
me." Which you do. And he gave you the interviews
anyway. >> Well, but he trashes himself. And this is the ultimate example
of showing all your work. In other words, there's some
things in here like when my wife
yells at me and says, "You're yelling at the president." You know, I thought maybe we
could cut that out and not
include it, and then realized that this has to be unedited. This is the way it is. And what you do is you see the
whole Trump. There's another point where I'm
asking him about how he writes
his speeches. He'd given a law and order
speech. And I said, "Did somebody help
you with that?" And he said, "Yeah, I get some
ideas, but I basically do it
myself. Bob, I want you to know,
everything is mine." (Audience members laughing)
Now, when he said that, I didn't
realize that he meant the presidency, also. That he wanted to keep it. And, of course, he didn't keep
it. But he still proclaims. So, there's something about
Trump that-- I mean, to think
of going through this nine months, the arrangement was he
could call me at any time. >> STEVE: And he did. >> BOB: And he did. And I could call him at any
time, which is an opportunity
for a journalist, too. So, I would write out questions:
what's going on that day or what
do I want to ask. And my wife Elsa Walsh, who is a
journalist at<i> The Washington
Post</i> and a staff writer at<i> The</i> <i>New Yorker,</i> she said during
that nine months, it's as if
there were three people in the marriage. (Laughing)
Elsa, myself and Donald Trump. And the phone would ring and
we'd think, ah, is that one of
our daughters? Is it a friend? Is it a robo-call? Or is it Donald Trump? (Audience members laughing)
And it would often be Donald
Trump. >> STEVE: Why would he do it,
though? Why would he give you the
interviews, knowing your
reputation? >> BOB: Well, but I was very
careful to let him have his say. >> Mm-hmm. >> And his reaction to all of
this is he wants to sue me
because he thinks it's his voice and I've stolen it. (Chuckling)
You know, everything is mine,
including his voice. But it's very clear. It was all on the record. I could use it in any way. And so he says-- he said some
good things. >> STEVE: Did he think he could
actually charm you into telling
a good story about him? >> BOB: Well, he has his say. I mean, here's the problem. You're talking about democracy
in this. He doesn't understand democracy. But significantly, at the same
time, he does not understand the
presidency and the obligations of the president. And in the United States, the
president is, under the
Constitution, such a central player in the government. And in the media world, a
central player still. And the tragedy, you listen to
this, most significantly, and if
it was a crime, what he did on the mishandling of the
coronavirus-- and I think he
put the country in moral freefall. If it was a crime, this is the
indictment. Because it turns out, he would
say things to me-- or this is
early 2020, the last year of his presidency, say, "Oh, yeah, the
virus is coming. I always tried to play it down. I don't want to panic people." And I thought, well, this kind
of surprised him. But because I had the luxury of
time, I could spend weeks and
weeks digging into the White House, and on the tapes you hear
his-- Trump's national security
advisor coming in early in January 28th, a top-secret
briefing. And Robert O'Brien says to him,
"Mr. President, the virus is
coming; it is going to be the biggest national security threat
to your presidency." His deputy, Matt Pottinger,
who'd been a<i> Wall Street Journal</i>
reporter in China for seven years during the SARS
epidemic, had golden sources in
China. And they told him. They said to him, "This is going
to be out of control. It is going to be a firestorm." It's like 600-- it's going to
be like the Spanish flu
pandemic, and that killed 650,000 people in the United
States. We're now at 1.1 million. >> STEVE: Million, yeah. >> And I mean, think of it. Trump knew this. And he lied and covered up and
concealed for months and months. And I mean, just think if
he'd done-- I once asked him,
"What's the job of the president," and he said, "To
protect the people." He failed totally to protect the
people. >> STEVE: There was a moment
where I think I heard on the
tapes he was supposed to have a briefing from Anthony Fauci, and
he blew off Fauci to spend 90
minutes on the phone with you. >> BOB: Yes. (Audience members laughing)
Fauci was not happy. (Audience members laughing)
But here's what happened. I know Fauci and the other
doctors. And I'm talking to them when the
virus finally-- Trump himself
on March 13th-- Chronology is so important here. Because you don't-- Things
happen in chronological order,
but you don't learn about them. I didn't learn about the
top-secret briefing until weeks
and weeks later. But I mean, here is the stunner. That Trump's meeting with the
doctors, the experts, and I'm
talking to them and they're saying, "He won't pay attention. He won't listen." He's off-- He's got these virus
deniers in the meetings. And so, they're telling me. So, on April 5, I call him and
I say, "You really need, the
doctors tell me, and they know you're not listening--
We need a World War II-style
mobilization of the country." And I go through the list and I
think Trump is going to do
something, and he didn't. He did nothing. >> STEVE: Permit me this
observation. I don't normally do this. But it felt to me as if you were
actually, at some points in your
phone calls, trying to be helpful to him. Not just being a reporter, but
actually urging him to listen to
his advisors because you were worried that he wasn't. Is that fair to say? >> BOB: Well, I knew he wasn't. >> Yeah. >> And in that phone call, my
wife Elsa is listening, and
after it's over and the tape's still running and she said, you
know, "You're telling him what
to do. You're yelling at the president. You're not supposed to do that." And I said, "It's a different
time." I mean, we were in-- like here
in Canada, this is a crisis of
the magnitude that we almost never confront. And I could get from the doctors
and I could get Trump on the
phone and kind of force-feed him and say, "You need some
coordination. You need to define who an
essential worker is." There were 15 things. And he goes and he listens, and
then he says, "Repeat them
again," and he did nothing. And by months later, I'm talking
to him on July 21 and I say,
"Well, it's pretty bad." And he said, "What's bad?" I said, "The virus." 140,000 people had died in the
United States at that point. And he said, "What do you mean? It's under control." You know, if you could dive
through the phone and shake him,
I would have. >> STEVE: Do you have a theory
as to why he seemed so detached
from reality? >> BOB: Yeah. Because in this conversation,
I said, "What's the plan?" And he said, "Oh, we'll have a
plan in 104 days. If I put it out now, no one
will pay attention." 104 days? And I realized, that's Election
Day. He was obsessed with being
re-elected. That's all he cared about. That is the tragedy. That's the moral freefall. You cannot do that. Now, at this point, we all knew
about the virus. There was nothing I could do to
tell people. But I could put it together in
the book and say, "This is who
he is." >> Hmm. One of the things, if you
listen to all of the tapes
that is a recurring theme throughout, is that he almost
never lets you finish a
sentence. You are trying to get in there
with questions, and he is
interrupting you constantly telling you how wonderful he is,
how his presidency is the best,
maybe since Abraham Lincoln, et cetera, et cetera. Did you have those moments where
you just wanted to say, "Will
you shut up and let me finish a line, please?" (Audience members laughing)
>> No. I just don't think you want to
deal with anyone that way. Particularly a sitting
president. You want to be respectful. As and you've heard, I've--
"Now, wait a minute. What about this? What about that?" But I'm not going to-- I did
yell at him, as my wife said. I mean, people have said to me,
"Why did you let that stay in
the tape?" And I said, "Because it
happened." And because I was yelling at
him. And, you know, this-- and this
man wants to run-- is running
for president once again. And I've had people stop me on
the street in the United States
and say, like you, "I listened to that. I can't believe it." >> STEVE: Part of the boasting
usually ends up with, "I have
the best instincts. I don't necessarily need to
listen to other people because I
have the best instincts." When he said stuff like that,
what did you think? >> BOB: Well, I challenged him. I mean, on dealing with North
Korea and later, Kim Jong-un. I said, "You're meeting with
him. What's the strategy? Are you trying to drive him to
the bargaining table?" You could play the tape and
Trump says, "Well, you know,
there's no strategy. You know, it's just instinct." Instinct! Now, we all have our own
instincts. And we hopefully have somebody
in our lives, or a number of
people in our lives, who will just say, "You're full of it. You can't do that. You need to consult others with
Kim Jong-un. I said to him, "The CIA says
he's stupid." "Uh, oh, I hope you write that,
Bob, because he's smart." And I said, "Well, why does the
CIA say he's stupid?" And Trump-- and, again, you
have to hear it or read it. He says, "Only I know." (Laughing)
"Only I." Now, I've written books about
10 presidents, going back to
Nixon. As Ken Burns, the document
person who does those great
documentaries said, "Well, you've done books on 20% of the
presidents that we've had in the
country." And I have never heard another
one say, I've never heard anyone
tell me-- President Obama or President
George Bush or even Nixon--
Never heard them say, "Only I know." Because the presidency--
I mean, there's a lot of self in
the American presidency, but you got to get other views and
opinions. You have to listen. >> STEVE: He clearly seems to
get along with the world's
tyrants more than he gets along with the world's democratic
leaders. Theories on that? >> BOB: Yeah, and he's quite
proud of it. Well, I think they recognize
each other. >> Aha. (Chuckling)
Okay. >> BOB: I'm spreading my legs
like this. I saw a thing on television the
other day that says that that's
the way Putin sits. (Audience members laughing)
Like, you know, it's a sign of
some sort of self-absorption, or-- I don't know. I'm going to go back this way. (Laughing)
>> STEVE: Good. All right. Since we're on the subject of
humour here, there are some
humorous moments on the tapes. Your phone rings in one of them
and he says, "Oh, I wonder if
that's Bernstein calling," something like that. >> BOB: Yeah. I had my cellphone. We're in the Oval Office. Some of these interviews took
place in the Oval Office. And my phone rings, and the
staff goes nuts because you're
not supposed to have a cellphone in the Oval Office. And it didn't bother Trump at
all. He said, "It's probably
Bernstein." >> STEVE: So, did you find that
he did have a bit of a sense of
humour or a bit of charm to him from time to time? >> BOB: Look. You don't get to the American
presidency and not have some
skill. But-- see, that-- I mean, he
wants to redo it. He wants-- This is the
comeback effort that we see now. So, I'm re-energized. >> STEVE: Let me take you down a
bit of a path here and make some
comparisons between Donald Trump and Richard Nixon, the first
president you wrote about. And you once asked him, "Do you
know why Nixon failed?" Do you remember what he said? >> BOB: Yeah. "Because of his personality." >> STEVE: Actually, he said,
"Because of you." (Audience members laughing)
>> BOB: Yeah, well... No, but we went beyond that
very quickly. >> STEVE: It went beyond that,
but hat's where he started. >> BOB: And I said, "Well, but
why," and he said, "His
personality." And I said, "How about all the
crimes?" (Laughing)
And Trump said, "Oh, yeah. Those, too." (Everyone laughing) >> STEVE: Nixon was kind of the
ghost in the room all the time,
right? Because Trump was aware of
Nixon's actions. He was aware of his pitfalls. He said to you, "I can't go fire
everybody; we saw what happened
with Richard Nixon when he tried that." Do you think he had a deep
understanding of any parallels
between his own administration and Nixon's? >> BOB: No. I don't think so. I mean, can I read something? I know that-- But I-- It's
from one of the Nixon tapes. >> Hmm. >> And I don't want to get it
wrong. It has to be literal or all the
12 people in the United States
who believe Nixon was innocent, one of them will call me. (Laughing)
And so, this is one of his
secret tapes. That it's a stunner. And it's December 14, 1972. Nixon's in the Oval Office. He just won re-election. So, he celebrates. He won re-election--
>> STEVE: 49 states. >> BOB: Pardon? >> STEVE: 49 states. >> BOB: Yeah, 49 states. And he won the election, as Carl
Bernstein and I showed, because
he stole it. Because he essentially tampered
with the process and launched
dirty tricks. Spying, espionage, sabotage on
the Democrats, and got a weaker
candidate. So, this is a great moment. So, Nixon is with his people in
the Oval Office. And this is literally from the
tape. "Remember: we're going to be
around and outlive our enemies. And also, never forget: the
press is the enemy. The press is the enemy. The press is the enemy. The establishment is the enemy. The professors are the enemy. The professors are the enemy. Write that on a blackboard a
hundred times, and never forget
it." >> Hmm. >> That's Donald Trump. >> Yep. >> But it's Nixon. When this came out, there were
all kinds of talk show hosts who
were very disappointed that they didn't make the cut. (Laughing)
(Audience members laughing)
But I mean, think of that. President of the United States,
the leader, you know--
>> Of the free world, yep. >> Talking like that, thinking
like that. And, you know, the press? I mean, we have our problems,
and we need to, you know, go
down the road of self-examination about what we
do. But for a leader to think that
and believe that--
So, that's the only reading I've got. Sorry. >> STEVE: You once said that
"Hate was the piston that
defined Nixon's presidency and what ultimately brought him
down." What do you think Trump's piston
was? >> BOB: Yeah, there's such an
overlap. Now, the day Nixon resigned--
This is August 9, 1974. Almost 50 years ago. He's in the east room of the
White House, and gives a
farewell address. And he had no notes. It was Nixon, raw. And his wife is standing there,
just kind of traumatized. Pat is. Two daughters, two sons-in-law. And Nixon, it's, uh--
Nixon just, you know, freeform. >> Unplugged. >> Unplugged. And he just talks about all of
his grievances, the way his
mother was treated. The way his father was treated. "No one will ever write a book
about my mother," he says. And of course, the book about
JFK's mother, Rose Kennedy, had
just come out. >> Hmm. >> And then there's that moment. Look at this on YouTube, I urge
you, because Nixon kind of
turns to the camera. And, again, no notes. Says the following, quote:
"Always remember, others may
hate you. But those who hate you don't win
unless you hate them, and then
you destroy yourself." I mean, think of that moment of
self-realization. He realized the hating destroyed
him. >> Hmm. >> So, it's the day before New
Year's Eve in 2019. Trump is president. He's invited me down to
Mar-a-Lago to interview him. And we're doing this interview
and he'd been impeached,
charged. And he was not happy about that. And we went back and forth. It was over a phone call with,
interestingly enough, President
Zelenskyy of Ukraine, where Trump is trying to get him to
get the prosecutors in Ukraine
to inter-- To get dirt on Joe Biden and
his son. >> STEVE: "It was a perfect
phone call, Bob." That's what he said. "It's a perfect phone call." >> BOB: And I said, "But wait a
minute. Do you want the president of
the United States to be calling
foreign leaders and having a to-do list for their
prosecutors?" "Perfect phone call." I mean, he just--
He wouldn't give an inch. So, at the end of this, Scavino,
who's his guy on the-- did all
of his tweets and did all of this comes in and sets up his
laptop. And Trump says to me, "Now, turn
off your recorder," so I did. Scavino opens the laptop, and
it's pictures of Trump giving
this State of the Union address the year before to Congress. But Trump's words are not there. There's kind of hyped-up
elevator music. But the camera pans the members
of Congress and the Senate. And Trump's right behind me,
right here. And the camera comes on, and
it's Senator Elizabeth Warren,
who's a progressive who hates Trump. Trump doesn't like her. >> STEVE: Calls her
"Pocahontas." >> BOB: Yeah, yeah. She's a Democrat, and she's
sitting there, kind of looking
around and Trump goes, "Hate, hate! See the hate?" Okay. Then AOC, a congresswoman--
>> STEVE: You told him you
didn't see the hate. >> Yeah. I said it. >> You told him. >> BOB: "No, no. I'm not going to--"
I'm stunned. >> Hmm. >> Because I'm seeing--
Hearing elevator music and
somebody who's just kind of watching him give his State of
the Union. So, AOC, a congresswoman who's
very much to the left. Trump doesn't like. And she's just sitting there,
kind of watching, quite
innocently, and Trump? "Hate, hate! Are you seeing the hate?" Then, out comes Bernie Sanders,
a senator in the United States
who's very progressive. And Bernie's just, you know, who
knows what he's thinking of? (Audience members laughing)
He's in his own world, and it's
kind of, you know, almost leisure time for Bernie and
Trump. Right back here. I thought he was going to bite
me on the neck or the ear. (Audience members laughing)
"Hate, hate!" >> STEVE: What is this
obsession with, then? >> BOB: Okay. Then Kamala Harris comes on. >> Oh, okay. >> She's not a vice-president. She's just a senator. And she really is cool in that. She-- You know, I thought maybe
she had some sort of rock music
going on in her ear or something. Kind of happy. And Trump, "Hate, hate! See that hate?" Now, what's the Nixon lesson? If you hate, you destroy
yourself. >> Mm-hmm. >> In that moment, Nixon
realized it. Now, whether he internalized it
fully and gave up his hate, I
don't think so. But Trump, I mean, he-- You
know, you're either on his side
or you're against him. And he's disfigured-- He disfigured his presidency
and himself. And never got out of himself. >> STEVE: And yet, if you look
at Nixon, Nixon was impeached. Before they could try him in the
Senate, he resigned and he was
gone. Trump has fought every step of
the way and so far, pretty much
skated on everything. >> BOB: Yes, that's right. But, you know, the Republican
Party in 1974 was very different
than it is now. Let me give you an example. It's August 7, '74, two days
before Nixon resigned. Barry Goldwater, who was a
conservative senator from
Arizona, the conscience of the party. Carl Bernstein-- This is after
Nixon resigned. We're doing a second book, which
was the final days about Nixon's
last year in office. And Barry Goldwater invites us
up to his apartment in
Washington. And we go there, and he gets out
the whiskey and we all have a
whiskey, and then he gets-- Goldwater dictated a daily diary
of what happened. And on August 7, he was
called to the White House with
the leaders of the Republican Party. And they met in the Oval Office
with Nixon alone. No lawyers, no aides. No nothing. They were in there. And other leaders say to Nixon,
"We're asking Barry to be our
spokesperson." And one of the most important
point-- moments in American
history. Because Nixon said to Goldwater,
"Okay, Barry. You know I'm going to be
impeached, charged in the House
of Representatives. But what about a Senate trial? What's it going to be like? How many votes?" He would need literally 34 out
of 100, according to the
American Constitution, to stay in office. So, Nixon says, "How many do I
have?" And Goldwater says, "Mr. President, I've gone around. I've counted and I've got an
accurate count. And Mr. President, you have
five votes." >> Hmm. >> "And one of them is not
mine." >> Whew. (Audience members gasping)
>> BOB: Whoosh! (Chuckling)
The next day, Nixon announced he
was resigning. And then, he did resign on
August 9. Now, what would the Republican
Party do now? >> STEVE: Well, that was the
question I was going to get to. That moment never happened this
time. >> BOB: They never got in the
room! >> STEVE: Well, let's go through
it a bit here. >> Yeah. >> Because Lindsey Graham gave
that speech on the floor of the
Senate in which he said, "I'm done with this guy." Mitch McConnell--
>> Because he'd investigated. We have all the documents in the
book,<i> Peril,</i> Robert Costa and I
did, to show that they're false. It's untrue. >> But McConnell said he was
done with him, and then he
wasn't. And the guy who's now your
speaker, Kevin McCarthy, said,
"I'm done with this guy," and then he went down to kiss the
ring at Mar-a-Lago. Why haven't they been able to
stick to their view that he's
bad for the Republican Party and should go? >> BOB: I'm going to sit like
Putin in answering this. (Steve chuckling)
>> STEVE: Okay. >> The best-- There's evidence
of this. And I'm going to give an
anecdote, but it's happened to
me all over the country. And it was six months ago. I was invited to give a talk in
Midland, Texas. Now, Midland, Texas is the oil
capital of Texas. Both Bushes, Bush Sr., George
W., lived there at points. So, they--
You know, this is Bush country. So, I'm giving this speech. And there's a reception
afterwards, a couple of hundred
people there. And off in the corner were 25
people, and they're ages 50 to
95. And they're asking me questions;
I'm trying to answer. I said, you know, "It seemed it
went on so long." I said, "Let me ask you a
question. How many of you think the 2020
presidential election was stolen
from Donald Trump? Raise your hand. How many of you?" >> STEVE: In the reddest part of
a red state, I'm guessing almost
every hand in the room went up. >> BOB: Zero. And I'm just about on the floor. Saying, you know, "I'm going to
call the newspaper, and say,
'Not--" And I said, "But--"
And I'm trying to--
What's going on here? "How many of you support Trump
and are going to vote for him
and want him to run? Raise your hand. How many? >> Well? >> 25. Every one of them. >> Every one? >> Every one. I mean, they couldn't get the
hands high enough. Even the 95-year-olds, reaching
for the sky. >> So, what are you
inferring from that? >> I'm inferring from that
that the pillar of Trump's
candidacy, as Trump would like to see it, is the election was
stolen, is not the pillar
of the Trump candidates. >> They're not buying it
anymore. >> They like him. They feel that--
I remember in the Oval Office
interviewing him. And it's here on the tapes. We're in the Oval Office and
we're talking about-- Now, this
is 2019-2020. So, he'd been president three
years. And it's stunning the way these
interviews take place in the
Oval Office, 'cause he brings in all of his aides. They brought in Pence, the
vice-president. Pence came in, and--
"Oh, I'll introduce him." And then Pence stood there. I'm sorry. I'm wrecking my--
For 45 minutes, catatonic. Said nothing. Asked no question. And I thought, wow. This is, you know--
What sort of drug does Pence
have? (Steve laughing)
So, anyway, we're going through,
we're talking about 2016. And I'm look-- And I've spent
some time on this. And there are books on it. And he doesn't read books. So, I just said, you know, "My
evaluation is that in 2016, when
you were running against Hillary, you instinctively
realized that the old order in
the Republican Party is dying and the old order from the
Democratic Party was dying." And in the Oval Office, there's
a big grandfather clock. And there's one historian,
Barbara Tuchman, that talks
about history's clock. And I didn't do that. And I just pointed at the clock
and I said, "You seized
history's clock." I only have audio. If you had a video, Trump's
behind the Resolute desk. Just jumps and says, "Yes! And I'll do it again." Of course he didn't. >> But he could. >> Well, I mean, this is the
point. Who is he? Whose interest does he
represent? And, you know, what-- How's the
old order in the Republican
Party and the Democratic Party right now? Shaky, uncertain. Who were the leaders of the two
parties in the United States? Biden is president. A lot of people, a lot of polls,
show that Democrats don't want
him to run. It's a jump ball in the
Republican Party, and I think
Trump has an edge, so-- >> STEVE: In fact, you were
prescient enough the first
time he ran to say-- You were one of the few people
who said, "He can win." Most other people in the media
were making jokes about the
whole thing, and you said he could win. Do you think he can win again? >> BOB: Yes, of course he can. And that's why we love the jobs
we have as journalists, because
it's the anything-can-happen world, isn't it? >> Yep. >> Anything can happen, and so,
it may happen. Uh, you know, I wanted to--
You mentioned Lindsey Graham. >> STEVE: Yeah. Senator from South Carolina. >> BOB: Right. Big Trump supporter, but has
been off the Trump train
occasionally. So, I'm talking to Lindsey
Graham once. I think this was last year. And I said, "I'm worried about
our business, the media, that
there's a perceived bias one way or the other." And he said something. He said, "Oh, don't worry about
your business. People have already written it
off as another form of
politics." >> How sad does that make you
feel? >> (Unclear). Well, it worries me. It worries me. And that's not our job. And Katharine Graham, the
publisher of<i> The Post</i> during
Watergate-- Great lady. After Nixon resigned, wrote Carl
Bernstein and myself a personal
letter on yellow legal tablet. She had more stationery than any
500 people in Washington, but
she chose the yellow legal tablet. "Dear Carl and Bob." Now Nixon's resigned, and you
did some of the stories. Quote. "Now, don't start thinking too
highly of yourselves." "And let me give you some
advice. And that advice is, beware the
demon pomposity. Beware the demon pomposity." >> STEVE: Why did she feel she
needed to give you that advice? >> BOB: Because then and now,
pomposity exists not just in
the media, but in politics and movies and Wall Street in the
United States. I mean, ask-- Can you ask the
poll-- How many people, and
raise your hand-- How many people think that the demon
pomposity is a big, big problem
in America? Raise your hands. (Steve laughing)
>> STEVE: This is not like the
first question you asked in Texas. >> BOB: Only one hand, ma'am. (Audience members laughing)
How many think it's not a
problem? >> STEVE: No hands going up
there. >> BOB: Yeah. So, now what does that tell you? How about, let's--
How about how many people think
the demon pomposity is a problem in Canada? Raise your hand. >> STEVE: As many hands go up. >> BOB: Almost as many. How many don't think so? There are a few. You a got a few people. >> STEVE: You've heard this
said numerous times. Trump would say, "If I were
still president, Putin never
would have invaded Ukraine." What do you make of that claim? >> BOB: Oh, boy. Easier to describe the creation
of the universe. (Audience members laughing)
It's a valid question. I've followed this closely,
'cause I think the Ukraine war
is the most important thing going on in the world globally. And I think it's going to be in
the history books for our
grandchildren's grandchildren to read about. And it is tricky, because Putin
has got this idea, "I'm going to
restore the old empire." Ukraine was once part of the
Soviet Union, and we're going in
that direction. And how do you-- I think the
first thought we have to have is
why do we not have a world order in this country, in this world,
I'm sorry, to stop something
like that? To keep something like that from
happening? What he is doing to Ukraine is
savage, unbelievable. And you get-- You have to get
into the question of why was he
not deterred or stopped from doing that. What-- Somebody told me, who
knows in the United States
government, that Putin has lost 2/3 of his army. Either killed or wounded. Lost-- I mean, this was a--
This was a-- I'm sure it's a
secret number, but that-- And this was about three weeks
ago, that Putin has lost 1,900
of the 3,000 tanks he had. I mean, he's destroying his
army. He's destroying Ukraine, which
he wants back. He has made himself a pariah in
the world. And how do you keep this from
happening? How do you do it? I think Biden has done a really
strong job of dancing that line
of putting pressure, supplying arms. I mean, now, I think Canada--
You're going to give four tanks,
right? >> Four tanks, yep. (Audience members laughing)
>> Well, boy. >> After having--
>> Four tanks ain't anything. >> STEVE: After having given a
lot of stuff already, the
government of the day would say. >> BOB: Yeah, and the United
States is going to give 31 and
Germany is going to give this. And somebody organized that. And in large part, I think it's
Biden who, you know, is kind
of-- You know, they're sitting at the poker table, you know,
and every-- "How much
are you going to put in? How much are you going to put
in?" And everyone did. And that's important. But what is the point? Brent Scowcroft, who was an
American national security
advisor for a couple of presidents, one of the
genius-- The true geniuses in
foreign affairs, once said in the '80s, he said, "Deterrence
is what is in the heads of your
enemy leadership." >> Hmm. >> And I think that's true. What's in Putin's head? We didn't deter him from
invading. Does he think we can-- A lot of
people say time is not on
Ukraine's side in this long war. They've done a fabulous job. It's absolutely amazing. But what happens in the coming
months, and when do you-- When
does Putin feel, you know, sit all like this there in the
Kremlin and just say, "You know,
we're going all the way." And "all the way" could be using
a tactical nuclear weapon. Which would change-- That day,
should that happen, will mark--
Will be a pivot point in history. And you can't rule it out. >> STEVE: There are microphones
apparently in the hall. There's one over there and one
over here. And if you want to go to the
microphones, we'll take your
questions. And while you line up, I'm going
to ask him one last question. And that is: 21 books, two
Pulitzer prizes. Lots of different actors, from
Robert Redford to Will Ferrell
to many others, having played you in movies. Am I allowed to say this? In two months, you're going to
be 80. You're about to turn 80. (Applauding) >> BOB: You know, I--
>> You going to wait for the
question or what? >> BOB: No, because what I
want-- I have so many doctors. (Steve laughing)
No, really. And I have to keep a list. This doctor takes care of this. And I called the doctor who'd
done my cataracts and asked
something about my prostate. (Laughing)
True. >> Okay. >> Now, that--
>> STEVE: But the question,
Mr. Woodward, is: you are doing this work well past the time
that most people who do this
work do this work. Why? >> BOB: Well, it is great work,
as you know. You get-- I mean, think about
it. In our business, we make
momentary entries into people's
lives when they're interesting, right? And then we get the hell out
when they cease to be
interesting. If you're a lawyer or a doctor,
you have clients. You have patients who have--
"Oh, no. Here comes so and so, you know,
with all of those legal or
medical problems and it's routine." We flee from the routine, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> And so, what could be more
interesting? And also, too, I think there are
five things that are going on
right now that are really important in the United States,
focused there, but also the
world. First is Ukraine. The second is weather, climate
change, which I don't know
anything about, but that's real. I've talked to people who've
been dealing with these storms
and so forth. The third is the coronavirus. Not going away. >> Nope. >> It is the variants. You talk to the Faucis or the
equivalents now and there's lots
of nervousness. The fourth is inflation. Which is a problem that--
How is inflation here in Canada? >> STEVE: 6%, 7%. It's still an issue. >> BOB: Yeah, I mean, that's,
to people who can't afford it,
it's you either pay rent or buy groceries or cut back. And I think the fifth thing is
the leadership vacuum of--
In the United States, the perceived leadership vacuum in
both parties. I mean, the most prominent,
successful, courageous leader on
the globe is Zelenskyy. >> STEVE: Yeah, he sure is. He sure is. (Applauding)
Okay. Over here, first? Okay. Incidentally, just before we
take the first question over
here, we had Dr. Fauci on<i> The</i> <i>Agenda,</i> the program that I
host, a few months ago. >> Yeah. >> And I said to him, who is
the best president, the guy who
got it the most, the one who was really engaged on all the files
you were on? And he punted. He said, "Well, you know,
they've all been wonderful in
their own particular ways," and I said, "Okay. Well, if you won't answer who
was your favourite," I said, "is
there any question in anybody's mind who you thought the worst
was?" And he said, "Nope." (All laughing)
>> But he didn't say the T-word. >> Didn't say the word, but we
knew who he meant. >> Okay. >> Yes, please. Microphone over here. Your question for Bob Woodward. >> Hi, Bob. Thanks for coming to Toronto,
because the Trump presidency
certainly does affect Canadians, as would a potential sequel. So, you wrote that Jim Mattis
used to sleep in his gym clothes
when he was worried about a nuclear attack from North Korea,
and Trump has built this new
system. You also revealed it's not clear
if it's nuclear, but maybe you
found that out. But how worried are you about
Trump's finger on the nuclear
button again, if he does resume the presidency? >> BOB: Well, that's a really
important question. In the book before this one that
came out in 2021,<i> Peril,</i> that I
did with Robert Costa, great young reporter who's now with
CBS, we opened the book on
January 8, 2021. Two days after the insurrection
at the Capitol. And the head of the Chinese
military, General Li, called
Milley and says, "What the hell's going on? Are you coming apart?" Because of the insurrection. And Milley says, "No, no. This is democracy. Sometimes we have bad days." And then, he puts down the
phone. And this is that history works
in chronological order. And his aide comes in and says,
"Nancy Pelosi," the Speaker of
the House, third in line for the presidency, according to the
Constitution, "is on the phone." And Costa and I got a transcript
of the call between Nancy Pelosi
and Milley. And Nancy Pelosi says,
"General--"
Now, this is the number-one general in the United States
military. And, "You know, Trump's crazy." (Audience members laughing)
"And he could set off a nuclear
weapon. And please give me assurance
that he can't." And Milley said, "Oh, no, no. We have procedures and don't
really--"
You know? And then she says, "He's really
crazy, general." And the general says, "I agree
with everything you're saying." >> STEVE (Laughing): Yes. >> And they hang up. Most stunning call. I mean, so then, Milley starts
thinking about do we really have
control of nuclear weapons. And he calls it, it's a great
phrase, "the darkest moment of
theoretical possibility." >> Hmm. >> The darkest moment of
theoretical possibility. That Trump, as
commander-in-chief, could call
and order military action, even using a nuclear weapon. So, Milley, in what I call an
act of intellectual readiness
and courage, calls in the watch officers in the Pentagon from
the National Military Command
Center who were there 24/7. He calls them in and he says,
"Now, we have procedures." Because Milley, as number-one
military person, is the chief
military advisor to the president. And so, he should be in on the
decision. >> Mm-hmm. >> And he goes around the room,
one by one. Asks an oath. "You got it? You understand?" "Yes, sir." "You got it?" "Yes, sir." "You got it?" "Yes, sir." "You got it?" "Yes, sir." So, the answer to your question
is the darkest moment of
theoretical possibility. Now, the only other time that
issue came up was the last days
of the Nixon presidency, when Schlesinger, who was secretary
of defense, had that worry about
Nixon, and sent out orders, just like Milley, to everyone:
"Nothing will happen unless I'm
in on the discussion." So, great question, and one that
people should reflect on. Now, we came out with this in<i>
Peril,</i> and I think a lot of
people went, "Oh, can that be true?" As you know, people doubt. Milley testified to the January
6th Committee, and they asked
him about every paragraph in that book, and he said, "It's
absolutely true." >> STEVE: Hmm. Yes, sir. Your turn. >> QUESTIONER: Mr. Woodward,
it's truly an honour to be here,
hearing you speak tonight. I want to follow up on your
remarks regarding Ukraine and
Russia's behaviour in Ukraine. In my humble capacity, I agree
with you, for sure, that it's
the most important thing happening in the world right
now. But you, having the privilege of
having covered 10 presidents
closely, don't you think that Russia's behaviour is mimicking
what they did in Syria, perhaps
with the Wagner Group and other things? There has been a lot of telling
signs that Russia is emboldening
in that way, and if you can remark on that, or perhaps shed
more light on it-- Thank you. >> BOB: Well, it's exactly the
question. I mean, if we had President
Biden here, and he--
I mean, this has come out, and I've done some reporting on
this, but he's trying to walk
that line of deterring Putin and the Wagner Group and all of
these other people, but not
trigger a reaction on Putin's part. And Biden has made it very
clear: "I'm trying to avoid
World War III." Uh, let's--
We don't have to take a vote on
that here. >> We don't, no. >> I mean, how many people--
I mean, of course. And he doesn't want a war
directly with Russia. But are we in a proxy war? How does Putin look at it? Now, Zelenskyy came, it was last
month, to the United States. Spoke in the Congress. >> Mm-hmm. >> It was a great moment. It was almost Winston Churchill. And he said, you know, "Thank
you, and we want more," and
there was this kind of wonderful feeling in the United States of
unity. How do you think Putin looks at
that? In the CIA, they have to analyze
and try to figure out. Putin looks at that and says,
"Oh. They've already declared war on
me." >> Does that suggest that the
American Congress should not
have invited him to speak? >> No, no. But it suggests that we're
living in a world where, on this
situation of Putin and Ukraine, we are on ice that's so thin you
can't even see through it. >> Over here, please. >> Thank you very much. At one point during the dialogue
tonight, Steve, you made
reference to asking Bob, "Didn't you ever feel like
telling Mr. Trump to shut up?" And then, in the presidential
debate, Joe Biden did precisely
that. What impact do you think that
had on the outcome of the
election, and what was your reaction when you heard it? >> BOB: Uh, well, I mean, I
understand the feeling. (Everyone laughing) But you know, that--
I mean, this is the whole thing. I mean, you have to contain
yourself, certainly as a
journalist. People--
I mean, you asked the question
about why did Trump talk to me. In part because he knew that I
try and strive for the
reputation of being non-partisan, that I want to
listen. I want to understand. And Biden is in a political
contest. You know, I quite frankly had
forgotten that Biden told him to
shut up. >> STEVE: Indeed. >> BOB: You're right. He did. Uh, didn't work. (Everyone laughing)
You know, he's still--
I mean, you know, it's not quite so bad that I wake up at night
and think that Trump is right
behind me, shouting in my ear, "See the hate? See the hate?" What--
You know, what--
And this goes to so many large questions about our education
system and ourselves and our
children, and hate does destroy. >> Hmm. >> And have you ever hated
anyone? >> Actually, no. >> Okay. Well, that's--
I know you had to say that. (Everyone laughing)
>> It has the added virtue of
being true. >> But the problem is, we get to
the--
You know, some get riled up, and you really--
You know, whether "hate" is the
word, just feel utter contempt or something like that. >> That's different. >> Or-- Yeah, it's--
I'm not sure it's different. See, that's the problem. That we have given ourselves,
too often, an emotional
get-out-of-jail-free card, that we can let it rip. And we've got to find some way,
not just individually but
collectively, to tamp that down if we can, and understand, you
know, what the job is that we
all should have about personal growth, personal
self-understanding. I'll tell you, I work on that,
but I'm not there, I swear. (Chuckling)
>> I got you. Over here, please. >> Good evening, sir. Thank you so much for being
here. I used to be a journalist
myself. I used to cover politics in
Brazil. Never boring. But as you know, a few weeks
ago, we have our own version of
the Capitol invasion on January "8." I wonder if you could care to
comment on that. And also, if, from now on, we'll
be seeing this kind of event
happen again somewhere else in the world. >> Yeah. That--
I don't--
I've read about what happened in Brazil, and it has a really ugly
echo, doesn't it? >> Yeah. >> But I don't have any more
feeling about that. But I--
When you raised that question, I
want to share this story, because it meant a lot just
being able to watch something. Maybe 10, 15 years ago, there
was a general who was chief of
staff, head of the American army, General Ray Odierno, and I
got to know him. He was the commander in
Afghanistan and Iraq, and a
revered figure in the army. And each year, he would have the
new generals, one-star, come,
and there were about 100, 110 of them. Come to Washington for seminars
and discussions. And he'd ask people to come
talk, and he asked me, for many
years, to come talk to the new generals about the media. And so, I'd go talk about the
media, and then Odierno would
take the floor. And a big barrel of a man. And he'd walk down the aisle,
and, uh, "Generals!" Now, they've got one star, and
he's got four stars. You know, not--
He's not demeaning them, but
he's just reminding them he's got more experience than them. "What's the job of the army,
generals?" And almost everyone would raise
their hand, and he'd call on
one. "General, what's the job of the
army?" And the one-star general--
"Chief, the job of the army is
to train, equip and organize members, people in the army, to
fight and win wars. And everyone would--
>> That's a reasonable answer. >> Reasonable answer. >> Yeah. >> Then, Odierno said, "All
right, generals. What's the second job in the
army?" "What's the second job of the
army?" And everyone, all the generals
were, like, "Second job?" (Audience members laughing)
"Wait a minute. No one told me." (Steve laughing)
"Is there a second job?" And there'd be this silence, and
Odierno would say, "Generals,
the second job of the army, and it may be the first job of the
army, is to prevent war." >> Hmm. There you go. >> And all the generals would
go... (Audience members laughing)
..."Well, we learned something
today that we should've known." >> Mm-hmm. >> I mean, Colin Powell, for
instance, I got to know Colin
Powell very well. And Powell, what a--
I mean, he was the reluctant
warrior. He was the one--
I wrote in one of my books about
the first Gulf War, when he's chairman of the joint chiefs,
that Trump--
Or that Powell was the reluctant warrior. And Powell wrote his memoirs,
and he always said that I'd said
he was the reluctant warrior. He had one answer, one word:
"Guilty." >> Yep. There you go. >> Guilty. The ones who know war the most
realize that we have to prevent
it. >> Yep. >> That's--
I'm not sure anyone would've
prevented what Putin has done in Ukraine, but that is the
calamity that we're living with. >> Indeed. Over here? Yes, please, sir. >> I work as a journalist, and
I've noticed myself that there
is a rise of far-right extremism and, you know, hate crimes,
things of that order throughout
Canada and around the world. Being so close to the Trumpism
of Trump himself and Trumpism,
I was wondering if you could speak to what his appeal is,
especially in terms of the
working class, you know, for voting, right? Like, what is it that lures
working-class voters to Trump,
considering he is, like, a very corporate billionaire who
doesn't really seem to have the
interests of the people in mind? >> BOB: Yeah. Well, that's--
Again, that's--
Historians, psychiatrists are going to be studying this for
decades and longer. Trump, you know, he has that--
He kind of found a voice of, you
know, "They're against me. They're after me." I mean, all of this in the
discussions on the tapes, he'll
say, "The Russia hoax, Bob, the Russia hoax." And I would have to say to him
that Russian interference needed
to be investigated. "You're right." This is the Steele dossier that
claimed that he had been in
Moscow cavorting with prostitutes was garbage, and I
had said that from a source I
had in looking at the dossier itself. And I'd say, "So, that was
misused." But you know, he was just so,
"I've been wronged. I've been cheated." And I think there are a lot of
people-- In fact, you know from
polls-- People in the United States
feel they've been cheated. They're on the wrong--
They've been wronged. >> STEVE: But the notion that he
would be their champion is
unusual, wouldn't you agree? >> BOB: Yeah, but he found that
voice, and this is--
The old order was dying, and he presented a new order. Now, whether it was logical--
Obviously, in many ways it was
not truthful. >> Hmm. But there, uh--
Anyway, I don't want to go back
to what he did on the coronavirus, but you know, "I
always tried to play it down. I don't want people to panic." Again, my wife Elsa looked and
said, "Well, let's see. Did presidents ever try to panic
people in the United States?" And she found FDR's fireside
chats... >> Mm-hmm. >> ...in the '30s and '40s. And if you go back and listen,
I mean, it's gripping. I think I've got some in the
tapes here of playing Roosevelt. >> Yeah. >> Actually, you hear the
scratchy radio, and right after
Pearl Harbor. And what does Roosevelt do? He said, "We have suffered." Does he say everything's going
to be fine? Does he play it down? No. He said, "We are in a struggle
for our survival." And did he say, "I don't want to
panic you?" No. He said, "I know you, every man,
woman and child in this country,
will rise to the occasion and do their part, and this is going to
be a long struggle, but we're
going to win." >> He mobilized support. >> "Because of you, the people." >> Yeah, yeah. >> And you listen to that, and
as Elsa and I listened, we
realized that if, when Trump on that January 28, had been
told about this crisis coming,
the tidal wave, the forest fire that's going to be the biggest
national security threat to your
presidency-- Not Russia. Not China. Not North Korea. Not Iran, but this virus. If Trump had said, "Ah. I have been presented--"
And I asked him at one point. It's in the tapes. I said, "Did you realize that
this was the leadership
challenge of a lifetime?" And he says, "No." (Steve chuckling)
Just no. How sad. >> Yeah. >> Because it was the leadership
challenge and moment of a
lifetime. If he had come and levelled with
the--
If he'd been 1/10th of FDR and said, "You know, I've been told
this by people who know. I don't know whether it's true." He gave a State of the Union
address a couple of days--
About 10 days later. And he could've said, you know,
"There are experts. We'll see." He used to always say, one of
his answers, "Well, we'll see." "I don't know, but it's serious. Wash your hands. Shook socially distant. We're working on the vaccines." Which is something he did a
great job on, by the way. And if he'd just let the country
into--
Not his mind, because that's self--
Into the experience he had of
these people coming in-- I mean, read what I found out
from them, and it's on the tape
here. I kept going back to them. I kept calling Matt Pottinger,
the deputy national security
advisor, at home, through White House signal. I'd call him at 10:00. "I just have one more question:
what exactly happened here?" You can hear him, in his own
voice, say how they presented
this to Trump, and it's exactly--
I never have heard of a
president being told, given this kind of graphic, powerful
warning, and he ignored--
And if he'd faced up to his duty--
I mean, it's not just the
presidency. As a human being. >> Hmm. >> You know? If I've got, you know, something
in my house that's a disease,
and you're coming over, I would say, as just a human gesture,
"Hey. You know, the guys came in and
said it's going to be a tidal
wave." Didn't do it. >> I regret to say, but one of
my jobs is to make sure we
finish on time tonight-- This is the last question we
have. So, yes, please, this microphone
here. >> Bob, thanks so much for
coming to Toronto. This has been super nice. My question for you is, if
Trump's presidency or even his
campaign took place during, you know, a pre-2016 political
climate--
Like the old world as we're kind of talking about tonight--
In your opinion, what single
event should have completely sunk him? >> BOB: But what? >> STEVE: What single event
should have sunk him? >> BOB: Oh, no, but that's--
It's history. You know, I don't know. And you can't turn the clock
back. But this is a-- I mean, look. This is as close as I can get
to-- This is the Nixon tapes
out of Trump's own mouth. >> Yep, yep. They really are. >> And so, you know, if that's
what people want, you know, we
have a democracy. And I will sleep-- And I sleep
pretty well knowing that I've
tried to present-- See, this, I'd done the book from this. And I listened to them again. Earlier last year. And I thought, my God, it's
completely different when you
hear him or you put it all together. Go ahead. You've got something to read. >> STEVE: Well, you know,
oftentimes in your books,
Mr. Woodward, you-- How do I put this-- You don't
go as far as you have gone in
this book. You write on page 418--
This is part of your conclusion. "Now, two years later in 2022, I
realize that I didn't go far
enough. Trump is an unparalleled
danger," you write. "The record now shows Trump has
led and continues to lead a
seditious conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election which, in
effect, is an effort to destroy
democracy." You're not pulling any punches
with this guy, are you? >> BOB: No, but that's January
6. >> Yep. >> And you see-- Again, you look
at the Constitution, the
electoral compact, and it's-- See, Watergate was--
Nixon determined and he
succeeded to destroy the process of nominating and electing a
president. What Trump-- And this is what
brings them to the same stage--
Trump looked at the electoral compact and the Constitution and
they literally say, on January
6, the date is in there-- "The Congress will meet and the
House and the Senate. Presiding will be the
vice-president of the United
States," who was Pence. "And they will count the vote." >> STEVE: They will count. >> BOB: They will count the
vote. >> Yes. >> And that's the only
certification. There's no law, there's nothing
else, that says who the
president is. In<i> Peril,</i> Costa and I have the
things Trump said to Pence to
try to get him to throw the election for them, and Pence was
resisting and Trump said to him,
"I made you. You're weak if I don't do what
I want. I picked the wrong man four
years ago. You are betraying me and the
country. You are a wimp." The only thing Trump didn't do,
the only threat he didn't make
to Pence in that period was, "Next year when I have my
birthday party at Mar-a-Lago,
you're not going to be invited." (Everyone laughing)
(Applauding) >> Just finally, you want
to join me in thanking the
legendary Bob Woodward for coming to Toronto tonight. >> BOB: Thank you so much. >> Thank you, Mr. Woodward. (Applauding) ♪
