Joe Rogan - Jordan Peterson Clarifies His Incels Comment

then when they can find anything that you say that could without further explanation or definition be misconstrued as appealing to this definition of you like for instance when all this when this what I guess they call themselves in cells involuntary celibates when all this stuff went down this car drove his car into a group of people it's horrible tragedy one of the things that you talked about within cells is that and this was a part of the Rome what was it there's a New York Times timepiece yeah you you said one of the cures for this is enforced monogamy people decided and you know I had never heard that term before quite honestly and that was like what the [ __ ] does that mean it's a psychological term and what it means is enforced by culture that it is a good value monogamy yeah because polygamous societies tend to become ultra violent yeah and that's been known in the anthropological literature for a hundred years and and certainly leftist anthropologists were among those who discovered it like she knew the journalists knew perfectly well what I meant by enforcement Olga be she was stupid it's a you use it as if everybody would understand it because you're an intellectual and because you're a professor in this also two minutes out of a two-day conversation you know it's like so if that socially just glanced oh well it's so fun that was funny in some sense because my sense is if you want a pillory someone you should attribute to them views that someone somewhere has had and the implication of that part of the New York Times article was that I wanted to you know take nubile young women at the point of a gun under state enforcement and deliver them useless men it's like no one has ever believed that so trading sounds like yeah it's a really the optics of that that statement are very bad but the question is why didn't why wasn't there follow-up questions and if there was follow-up questions to get you to define what you mean by enforcement not well there were they just didn't make it into the piece that's a real problem yeah it's a real problem that's a real problem because that's that that is it's so ridiculous because inaccurate definition of who you are one of the things I've said continually I'm and this is on record in multiple places it's like okay so you're a young man hmm and all the women are rejecting you who's got the problem it's not all the women that's a bad road to go down if all the women are rejecting you it's you we both agree on this but why is enforced monogamy the solution for people that are involuntary celibates well it's the solution to them it's the solution to the relationship between men and women fundamentally is monogamous social norm men are unattractive if these were suggestion to them but if these men are unattractive to women I don't mean just physically unattractive mean women aren't seeking them as mates mhm they need to become men yes they certainly do so to this illusion that's the solution absolute and we both agree on this yes what they need to do that in this society where monogamy is the social norm but isn't a social norm anyway well that was partly my point although to the degree that we deviate from that we tilt towards a more violent society I was making a very minor point I don't think they're related quite honestly I know I don't think that involuntary celibates I don't think that having enforced monogamy as a part of our cultural norm is gonna help those people it does how's it gonna help them well because what happens is if a polygamous society develops which is the alternative then a small minority of men get all the women that's what happens okay that's the only point which may fear Allah theoretical world where polygamous societies exist and mass and then you do have this problem with this a small group of men that are [ __ ] all the women but that's not what we're talking and also making the women unhappy right because the women don't have any access to a genuine intimate one-to-one relationship over any long period of time which doesn't work well nah it's the whole idea so much best women want that right sure if you have children right but I still don't think that that is why these men are involuntary celibates and I don't think it's the solution to that I think the solution is that they need to become attractive yes that is the solution I don't think the two are related well the only I was making a minor point the minor point was that one of the ways that societies around the world have figured out that you keep young male aggression under control is by enforcing monogamous standards because it gives everyone a chance in some sense the only chance meaning it clears more more women will be available for one-on-one relationships rather than one guy who is some you know whatever for whatever reason so what you see in society well you see this happening in universities where women outnumber men so the man hypothetically have more sexual opportunity but that isn't what happens what happens is that a small minority of men have all the sexual opportunity a fairly large minority of men don't the women are on how because they can't find a committed relationship it's bad for most of the men and the men who have all the sexual opportunity gets cynical but isn't this in some ways against your whole idea of equality of outcome because you're talking about equality of sexual outcome now if these men James that's the dominant basketball player that just kicks everyone's ass this is the this this is a guy who's succeeded at the highest level right well there's going to be people like that sexually there's going to be people that are better at finding mates and that this is what they enjoy they enjoy having many mates enjoy being yes but but if this is what they enjoy if it's a man who doesn't want a family and enjoys dating multiple women why is that bad well the I think the fundamental reason it's bad is because it's bad in the long run for children it's bad for children if he chooses to have children fundamental issue as far as I'm concerned right and I think it's the answer look to give the journalist credit that is the point she was making you know apart from pillory me and and and and caricature in my perspective that was the point she was making well first of all I'm not in favor of unbridled hierarchies I've already said that you know the proclivity of a hierarchy is that they're all the spoils go to the person at the top right and that can destabilize the whole straw yes so we have to have a dialogue about how to rectify that but how did you possibly rectify that if one man is but like say if we've got one six foot five beautiful man who's got a perfect body and yet brilliant and he just wants to date a bunch of women yeah and all the rest of the people are five foot one and they're fat and they're lazy and like this guy's gonna if this is the competition he's going to win yep yep there's no way around this and yet even ones decide to have enforced monogamy where it becomes a popular thing the women are gonna be more drawn to him if he chooses to date them they might decide I would rather have him sometimes than never is that actually what does happen but what is wrong with that well what's wrong with it is that it destabilized the society and it's bad for children right you said that yeah but that's what if they don't want to have children but there's a lot of people that don't want to have children there's a lot of people that choose to go their entire life without having children this men in their 30s some of my friends have vasectomies they don't want children mm-hmm so why why would that help in any way these involuntary celibates well I think you tilt the society so that it serves the interests of well that's a good question to you but you see my point I see your point no doubt about it you're almost having you're almost forcing and in an equality of outcome no that would not was her point to him to the degree that she had a point that was her point now and but I but it's not who doesn't run contrary to my opinions that the issue of outcome has to be addressed I already said there's needs to be a reason for the left and the right and then the problem with hierarchies is they can get too steep and destabilize everything that does happen that particularly happens in the sexual domain and there's plenty of anthropological evidence for that but you still might say well who cares because the men who are who are winning should be allowed to win and the women should be allowed to choose it's like yes except that there's the problem of children and so society steps in on behalf of the children and you can say well lots of people don't want to have children yes and that's truer now than it used to be although many of those people end up having children anyways you know the guys around all the time so that doesn't circumvent the problem but the issue here for me isn't the men or the women it's the children we're trying to set up societies where the probability that children will be raised in something approximated an optimal environment is optimized and that's going to mean sacrifice of opportunity and choice on the part of adults it's necessary I agree with you but I think that what we're talking about mirrors what we're talking about in sports it mirrors what we're talking about in business it's everything else there's going to be people that are better at all different aspects of life there's going to be people that are talented in terms of like getting women to like them yes that's true well that's why I also look you see this right women are high Pergamus which means they mate up in a crew they meet across an OP dominance hierarchies and so if you're a male who's successful in a given hierarchy the probability that you're gonna have additional mating opportunities is exceptionally high it's an unbelievably good predictor of that that hypergamy is a very uncomfortable discussion yes I'm certainly it doesn't matter well there's plenty of inaudible discussions too that's a big one though it is the idea that it defines women's sexual choices by the fact that they want begger bigger better someone who's more more successful someone who's so higher on the social ladder than what they're accustomed to are what they yeah well what women do is like mate choice is a very difficult problem so how do you solve it well here's how women solve it throw the man in a ring let them compete at whatever they're competing at assume that the man who wins is the best man marry him yes it's a brilliant solution it's a market-oriented solution it's actually the solution that appears to have driven our evolutionary departure from chimpanzees it's a biological solution and it's a logical solution which will cost what is the cost well the cost is the cost is polygamy and so we rein that in with enforced monogamy and we do that in order to provide stable stable circumstances for children is polyamorous is a polyamorous society just as unattainable as this utopian Marxist yes yeah I think so because it looks like this is another point I was making that didn't get covered in the in in the article or the wrote about it somewhat extensively on my blog is that society's tilt towards monogamy across the world is human Universal now that doesn't mean that people don't have polygamists or polyamorous tendencies because they certainly do and it's certainly also the case that one of the women ways that women gerrymander this system is that like the number of women children who are in a say say you're married and you have children with your husband but you also have an affair so we have a child by another man that's more common than anyone suspected so part of the way that women solve the problem that you're just describing and I'm not saying anything for this or against this this is a purely factual biological claim is they pick a monogamous marriage and they cheat with high status guys now you know obviously in the confines of the marriage that's a terrible thing but that's a very uncomfortable subject though for women in particular uncomfortable subject for everyone right but it's a curse to all subject they don't like the idea that this is a common thing that women choose a safe man that is willing to be monogamous with them and perhaps maybe they're above him in a social class or in sexually and then they'll cheat with someone who's it's common but it's not the norm right it's still the norm not to do that the norm is fidelity right but but there's plenty of exception this is enforced monogamy Coulson or monogamy is this it's like okay so my sons getting married in in September and so so let's say he comes to me in the year and he says hey Dad guess what I've had three affairs in the last year and they've all been successful I haven't got caught aren't ia good guy what am I gonna say to that no what the hell are you doing that's not what you're supposed to be doing that's enforced monogamy enforcement aagama meaning the around you try to guide them in a way that you think is gonna yes it's harmonious family yes it's built deep into the cultural norms and if that starts to destabilize then there's trouble and that doesn't mean that it's not prone to all the problems that you laid out look there isn't a bigger problem than successful reproduction it is the big problem and all of the solutions that we've generated for it are full of flaws like here's an example the gender pay gap okay there's no gender pay gap there's a mother gap there's other reasons too but women really take a hit when they become mothers okay that's unfair fair enough man what the hell are you gonna do about it's not just

Channel: JRE Clips

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Id: jsMqSBB3ZTY

Length: 13min 34sec (814 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 02 2018