We are filming today for the Hamilton College
Jazz Archive and it's my great pleasure to have one of my favorite saxophonists, Mr.
Jerome Richardson. Welcome. JR: Thank you very much. MR: You've made a living on both coasts, a
couple of times. JR: A couple of times? Well I guess you'd call it that. When I first started I was born and raised
in Northern California, and I've played in and around San Francisco and so forth. And I finally joined Hamp's band and came
back here and saw what New York was like, and went back and then came back here again. I said it's time for me to come to New York. So it worked out, well it didn't work out
too well in that my wife and I could not agree at that time, and so she didn't want to come
to New York, and I said well- MR: You needed to be here. JR: Yeah. MR: The scene at that time, was this late
fifties or early fifties? JR: Maybe '53. MR: A lot of recording going on? JR: Yeah, there was a lot of recording and
there was a lot of music. And where I was there was not much, I'd done
everything there was to do in San Francisco. So I knew I had to get out of there. And I wanted my wife to come, she wanted to
stay with her family. I said well okay. MR: When you got here, you started doing some
combo work, and- JR: Well I did some combo work earlier on. I played the Apollo Theater and the Savoy
and different places, you know. I mean you pick up a job here and there so
you pick up whatever you can. Then I was doing, let me see, I was working
at Minton's Playhouse with Kenny Burrell. Sometimes I worked there by myself, sometimes
I worked with Kenny, sometimes Kenny would work with me, and we shifted off. So about two weeks before Christmas we got
fired, I mean they were closing the place or whatever. I said uh oh. And my wife, my second wife, was then pregnant
with my daughter. And along about that time she had the baby,
and I said now what am I going to do? But somebody came by and called me and said
they needed a rock & roll saxophone player, and a rock & roll singer, to sing some rock
& roll blues at the Roxy Theater. I said you got it. MR: I can do it. JR: So I went in there for two weeks and ended
up staying there two years. And then I made contacts through there and
I started doing a lot of recording around town. MR: That's great. When they said "rock & roll blues" what exactly
did they mean? Heavy rhythm & blues? JR: No it wasn't rhythm & blues, it was rock. They had, well they had the rock rhythm things
under it, and so I sang whatever blues they gave me. And that was good enough for them. They weren't that well versed in rock music
anyway. So it was all right with me. At the time, I needed the job. MR: Right. You needed the gig. When did the quartet with, was it Oscar Pettiford,
come about? JR: Oh, those days were also before the Roxy. I came in town, when I came in town I met
Oscar Pettiford, oh, some years back in San Francisco. And I heard he was working at the Bohemia,
so I went there, you know, went by there, and we talked a while and he said, "You want
a gig?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "I need a saxophone player." I said, "You got one." So I started playing there with him. And I always have to tell this story, because
it is, I think it's a funny one. One time, finally, I was doing a little bit
of recording around there. And this record date was
going to have me be late to the gig, to Oscar's gig, see? So I told Oscar, I says, "Oscar, I'll be late,
I won't be here until the second set or something." He says, "Okay, it's okay." So I did the date, came back and here was
this alto saxophone player playing his ass off. I said, "Oh, shit, I just lost my job." Guess who it was? Cannonball Adderley. And that's how we all connected up to do his
first album and so forth. MR: I think I'd read about that. They said that the saxophone player was late
or something, and Cannonball sat in. And what was the tune that they called, not
"April in Paris," something else. And they did it really up, you know, to see
if he could handle it. I guess he handled it. JR: He did. MR: As a matter of fact I've got a picture
of one of his greatest hits records, and you're on it playing tenor. JR: Yeah? Well in those days I came there playing tenor. What had happened with me, when Charlie Parker's
shift was up I was in San Francisco and I heard all the stuff that Charlie was playing,
and he messed up my mind just like he messed up everybody's mind, and I was playing alto
then. I said I can't do this, much as I love Charlie
Parker, I just can't - everything I played on the alto sounded like Charlie Parker to
me. So I said no, I'll play tenor. So that's how I started playing tenor. MR: Because there was maybe a little more
room for your own thing in there? JR: Well not so much so, there was not much
room for alto saxophone players in those days. Not even now you know as far as popular saxophone,
they always want tenor. So I started playing tenor. And that's how I came here, playing tenor. So everybody thought I was a tenor player,
but I never was. MR: So as you got into the New York scene
you started getting your name around and you get more calls-
JR: Yeah, I got very busy. I played flute, all the flutes and a little
clarinet and all the saxophones. And it was easy to work with the guys - that's
another one - if the kids were to listen to this, as far as I'm concerned, the idea is
to get along with your fellow musicians. If you're hard-nosed and you're always at
odds with someone, or even behind the booth, the people who are recording you and all that
kind of business, the main thing is to get along with people. You make it a happy day, you have a happy
time doing it, and you just will enjoy it. MR: Yeah. They can hire you for your attitude as well
as your musicianship. JR: That's right. If you have it. I've known a lot of musicians who've had bad
attitudes, great players, and nobody wanted them. MR: So a couple of years after you got here
- we did find your - there you go with the alto flute. JR: Yeah. Let me see what was on that, yeah, "Midnight
Oil." MR: Notes by Ira Gitler. You had a nice band on that with Hank Jones
and your friend Kenny Burrell. JR: Yeah. Jimmy Cleveland, Hank Jones, Kenny Burrell,
Joe Benjamin and Charlie Persip on drums. MR: What was it like in the studio for an
album like this? Did they give you a day, a couple of days? JR: In those days it was done in one day. You might get a double date out of it, but
it was done all day long. I should have said - I said "Midnight Oil"
- see I should have said "All Night Long." Well there's another one I did called "All
Night Long" anyway. I should have tried to be different with the
music on that. MR: How so? JR: Well it was a different approach. I was playing alto flute in some, harmonically
it was a different approach. And it was what you might call esoteric. And it didn't catch on very well because they
couldn't tell whether it was commercial or good jazz or one of those things. MR: It was in the cracks, right? JR: Right down the middle you know. Although Prestige wasn't doing anything about
advertising and promoting no one's record at that time. I used to say they used to go up on the Empire
State Building and throw all the records off, and the one that ended up on the edge on the
ground, that's the one they'd do something with. So you know they didn't do anything with anything,
you know. MR: That's quite a marketing philosophy. Well you recorded one of the first flute solos,
didn't you? With Lionel Hampton? JR: I think so. There is controversy about that one. This was back in 1949. Quincy Jones wrote a piece called "Kingfish." And that was an odd one too in that we were
rehearsing that and there was only I think about eight or ten pieces playing that particular
piece. And my wife called, we were in I think Kansas
City or somewhere, and my wife called from Berkeley. And I told Bobby Plater I said, "Bobby, play
my part." And I was playing alto in the band at that
time. And so I talked to my wife and I came back
and I picked up my flute and went over to the trumpet, transposed and played the melody
with the trumpets. And Quincy said, "That's it." Because it was a new sound. That's how that sound got there, plus I played
the flute solos too. And so I heard, much later, that Herbie Mann
was supposed to have done the first flute solo, or Frank Wess. So I don't know. I don't know when they came out with it. MR: Because the things always weren't released
as soon as - JR: At the time, yeah. MR: '49, that's pretty early for that. JR: So I don't know, I do know they said,
I heard that it became quite a piece after it was released you know. So they said, "You'd better get back to New
York." Well at that time I was still on the West
Coast. MR: Tell me about this picture we were just
looking at of your European excursion with Quincy. JR: Quincy Jones. That was the show called "Free and Easy." I think it was in 1959, 60. And we went over there with the show, which
failed in Paris, and that picture, well that's not the way we were sitting in the show, but
that picture is the background, it's what the show was built on. We only had two, I think there was only one
scene set up. The show was two hours long and it stayed
that way. But we were grouped back and on each side,
and I think it was one of the first times. Also the jazz band was playing on the stage
with the actors and dancers and so forth. And we were playing very soft and it was like
stereo. And so that, and also that was a great band
too, besides the fact, after that failed, we barnstormed around Europe and all-in-all
I guess we were together from beginning to end about ten months like. And we were broke, but had a good time. MR: Might as well be in Europe and be broke
and see something new I guess. It's not easy to keep a group like that together
I would guess. JR: Well there was nineteen people in that
band, and nineteen different kinds of people. Different thoughts, different feelings about
everything. But when we got together we were like brothers
and sisters. But after that, it went - sheeeew - you know,
find us. MR: I guess I wouldn't want to be the road
manager. JR: Well no, the thing about it is we would
come in on time, we would get the bus and so forth and so on and do everything we had
to do, on time. There was only one person you had to go and
find and that was Budd Johnson. But God rest the dead, he was such a beautiful
man, a beautiful player, but he would drink a little bit. So he would get juiced and not show up or
something you know. But I think he was the only one there that
disturbed anybody. MR: Well Quincy must have been fond of your
playing, because I have here one of his great records, and -
JR: "Gula Matari" or something? MR: This is "Walking in Space." JR: Oh, yeah. MR: And I have to say that the soprano sax
that you played on this one tune here, "I Never Told You," was just gorgeous. Do you remember that recording? JR: No. MR: Well it was great. JR: I remember one time I did Dizzy Gillespie
playing -. MR: Oh, yes, "Manteca?" JR: "Manteca." And I played a soprano solo in the middle. And they were trying to decide how they would
play it, and I told Quince I said, "Why don't you do it in six?" So he did it in six, and then put strings
behind it. So it sounded good. Even I have to say so. MR: Yeah. Well that's a beautiful record. And your soprano playing is gorgeous. Roland Kirk. JR: "I Never Told You So." Do you know how it goes? MR: It features Toots Thielmans on the harmonica. JR: Yeah, but I wonder, I can't remember how
it went. MR: -I can't really sing it. But there's a spot in the middle where you
do a really lovely soprano sax. Trust me. You should listen to it. JR: Yeah, I've got a lot of LPs I've got to
get rid of. Since I moved back here I moved all my stuff
from Los Angeles, and I had a whole house full of stuff. I've got about six boxes. MR: Well you know, the Hamilton College Jazz
Archive would be glad to talk to you about taking your albums. JR: Really? MR: Yes. We can talk about that later if you want. JR: Well what I was trying to do, what I was
hoping to do is sell them to people who would take them. MR: Well we'll talk about that too. We'll talk. JR: Okay. MR: I want to ask you about one of my favorite
subjects, which is how the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis band got together. JR: Well you know that already. MR: Yeah, who was that guy? But again, I think you've been part of some
great, great records, in jazz, and this being one of them. JR: I've been very lucky, very lucky. I've played with some very fine bands. The Quincy Jones band was a great one, the
Thad Jones band was another one, and the one I'm playing with now, whenever we do work,
is also a fantastic one. In between there there've been some very nice
ones. I've been very lucky, very blessed. MR: Well I can testify to that, because I
had the pleasure of sitting five feet away from the saxophones in the Slide Hampton band,
and that was an experience. JR: Well that is quite an experience, man. MR: There are some very adventuresome arrangements,
and I was thinking to myself, well what's the big band of the '90s sound like? And I think that's it. Because your arrangements are just really
exciting, extended. JR: It was certainly, in certain areas, the
Charlie Parker arrangements were certainly different. It had a different approach. Some had a Latin approach, and they were certainly
'90s and further. There are very fine arrangements, especially
by Mike Mossman and of course Slide. But the way they played them, the way we played
the music, the soloists who played in the most difficult parts of some of that music
were fantastic soloists, you know like David Sanchez man. He's the young boy that's coming up that's
going to fire up on everybody. He's beautiful. MR: It's nice that he has a big band to play
in too, because there's not all the opportunities I guess that there used to be as far as -
JR: Well there are good things to say about big bands and good things to say about small
groups. In a small group you have a chance to play
on every piece. In a big band, there is no way that everybody
can play on a piece, you know, so sometimes there's one guy, sometimes it's another and
this and that. There are times when you really don't get
a chance to play what you feel in a big band. You don't have time to play it. Somebody else is doing it. And in that you're better off in a way playing
with a small group, where you can do all the things you wish to do without the great big
sound of that big band, and sort of framing you like a picture you know. And at times I think that was the trouble
sometimes with the Duke Ellington Band. Some of those guys who were in that band who
left the band just about couldn't do anything and didn't do anything without that framework
of Duke Ellington around them. And they almost didn't know what to do or
they didn't try to do anything. The only one I know of that really did something
and has made his mark is Clark Terry. MR: Most of them came back to the band, didn't
they? JR: Most of them came back to the band, most
of them, like I said, died with the band. MR: Yeah. Ellington had a way of making them sound the
best that they could. JR: Well he wrote for them. And you can, well Ellington's band is a unique
band in that they did write for those guys. So consequently, anybody sitting in the band,
you could take thirteen pieces or however many that band was, of different guys, playing
the same music, won't sound the same. They will not sound the same. Because they took Duke's music and bent it
to their own feelings. They did it to their own feelings and that's
what Duke Ellington's music was, what it came out to be. So nobody could come behind that. MR: Interesting. What brought you back to the West Coast, was
it in the late '60s? JR: Well, '70s. I went back to the West Coast because there
was nothing here. There were no, the theaters were closed, recordings
had gone to Muscle Shoals, there just about wasn't anything. And the only thing there was Thad Jones and
Mel Lewis once a week. MR: Doesn't exactly pay the-
JR: And we weren't making that much at that. So I said well - and then Quincy had been
trying to get me to come out when he went out, and that was about two years before. I said no, no, no, I don't want that, I don't
want to be out there. So finally I said well I'd better go. And he was there, and I did okay for about
five or so years. And then all the people that I knew were going
off into other things. And so consequently my jobs dwindled. And then I got a group, I was trying to work
with a group around there and so forth and do things. And I found that Los Angeles wasn't very good
for me. So I says well, as soon as I can I'll leave
here. So someone called me to do "Black and Blue." And I told him I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do a show. And they kept talking and they said, "Well
will you help us find some people in Los Angeles?" So I said okay. So I set up an audition place and so forth. So the second day, here were the two people
that owned the show, the Argentenians, and let's see what was her, what did she do, she
was one of the producers from New York. And she said, "Jerome, would you play for
us?" I said, "I don't want to do the show. I don't want to be bounded." So it sounds kind of trite, but I had my horns
there, I was getting ready after these auditions so put them in the shop to be repaired. And I said, "Well okay, I'll play." So I played, and the two Argentenians said
"yeah, that's it." I said "oh, shit." And then I said, okay, so no, I still don't
want to play. So the money went up and up and up, and so
here I am- MR: Now it's starting to get serious. Was this going to be a road show? JR: Not at that time, no. We played there and I came and rehearsed right
here in New York, and I can't think of the name of the theater. But we played on Broadway for two years. We could have been on Broadway for four. But somebody started messing with the money. MR: But you did the show for two years. And that's what brought you back here is that
right? JR: Yeah. That's what brought me back. MR: And you've been here since. JR: Yeah, and I'm very glad I'm here. MR: Good. Tell me about this particular, do you remember
this particular recording with Joe Williams? JR: Jerry told you all about that. MR: Yeah. But I want to hear how you weathered it. JR: We all weathered it about the same way. MR: He said it was very early-
JR: Well we'd just got finished working the Vanguard. There we were at two o'clock in the morning
and everybody's drinking until four or something, you know, half drunk. And Joe was evil, because the record date
was going to be at eight o'clock in the morning, and everybody was evil. Oh, we didn't want to be there at all. And especially him. And because of it, I think because we were
tired and everything, because of it, that's where it came out fantastic. We played and it was like we didn't care. We just - and of course we cared - but we
were tired. And sometimes things happen like that, when
you're so tired you just, you can't, you're not on edge, you're not worried about playing
the wrong notes, you're not, you're just sitting there playing and maybe enjoying it then. And of course we generally enjoy our work
anyway. And so it turned out to be a fantastic record,
and that's what happens. MR: That's great. What's your weekly activities like nowadays? JR: Well it's sort of off and on. As you know I just finished playing the Iridium
with Slide. This next week all of a sudden I'll be busy
doing all kinds of things, doing a Lester Young memorial, doing, let's see I don't know
I'd have to look in my book to see what I am doing, but there's three or four things,
it almost feels like the old days. MR: That's great. JR: But that's just one week. And so I take it as it comes. Right now I'm working on, or getting ready
to work on a record. Now we're going to hope to record in June. And I also have a manager and all of that
now. So I'm going in that direction. And this is the first time I've ever had a
manager. MR: No kidding. Well I hope it works out for you. Sometimes the business of music can - sometimes
it's good to handle it by yourself and then sometimes -
JR: Well I find that it's very hard to advertise yourself, to talk about yourself. I will never forget one day, it was in Hollywood,
I wanted to play in one of these new places. So I made an appointment with the owner of
the place. And I walked in and it was a lady. So she looked at me and I looked at her. And we looked at each other for a minute. She said, "Well tell me about yourself." I said, oh - you know - and I said well I
have a bio here. She said no. She really stuck me in the middle. And so I did what I could do, and I told her
what I could tell her, and I said, "And also, whatever else I haven't told you is in the
bio." As you might know, I didn't get the job. Because I found out that, for me, it was impossible
for me to tell them how great I was like I'm talking about someone else, like Clark Terry. I can talk about how great Clark Terry is
for years and years, you know, and how wonderful he is. What a great man he is, and all of this other
and so forth and so on. I can't talk about me like that. MR: It's hard. JR: So you need someone else to go before
you. And I have never had that because I guess,
and it's my own fault probably, but it's hard to trust someone to handle my business. And there was only one person that I knew
that I wanted to do it, and he wasn't, he didn't, I asked him, it was John Levy, and
he has Joe Williams and Nancy Wilson, and he didn't want to do any more than that. But some years back I asked him I said, "John,
I'd like you to-" He said, "no, no more instrumentalists. After Cannonball, that was the end of it." I said well, okay. MR: He would have been a good one. JR: Yeah. Because oh I've known him for a long time,
from years back when he was playing bass with George Shearing and was managing George Shearing
way back then. And so I knew him to be a straightforward
person, and that's the kind of person I want to be with. Now this young lady, Suzy Reynolds is a young
lady, she's a brilliant girl, and I think we're going to do some things together. MR: Did you ever do any work in schools or
universities? JR: A little bit. I'm not very good at - shall I say - lecturing. I can go in and rehearse a band, talk about
what we're doing there. But to stand up and lecture and to teach,
I don't know quite what direction to start in. Once I get started probably you know I would
be all right. But just to make that initial move to clear
the, you know, the way or something, whatever it is - still if you were to talk to me and
ask me about saxophone or flute or whatever I do, I'm glad to talk to you about it. And I can tell you lots of things about it. I can tell you well do this, do this, and
so forth. But I've tried, I don't know why, I remember
years back I used to try to teach privately. And I found out the mothers of these kids
wanted them to suddenly be able to play "How High the Moon" in two lessons. And I finally told them I said hey, take your
money, tell your ma you're wasting your time, wasting mine, goodbye. MR: Oh, that reminds me so much of Doc Cheatham
told us the same story. A woman came and the kid had not played a
note, and she brought a Dizzy Gillespie book with her and she said, "How long is it going
to be before he can play this?" And he said the same thing you just did. Take your money, see you later. JR: You're wasting your time, the kid's time,
my time, and everything else. And I want to teach in a manner that they
learn the instrument. Learn how to start playing a sound you know. Learn to be precise with your fingers and
so forth. Now, you know -.
MR: Well do you have an instrument that you like to play the most these days? JR: I think soprano saxophone. MR: You ever get your piccolo out anymore? JR: Oh, I have to practice. Practice, practice. Last night I took out my flutes. The day before I was playing a little piccolo
just to keep my chopping okay. But I want to, I've been practicing a lot
of saxophone because I haven't been asked to play flute too much lately, but I also
know that I've got to get my flute back together like I should. Because on this record I might play some flute,
or I'm looking to do some flute playing. I've got some original pieces and I want to
do a thing with Villa Lobos, the Bachianas #5, and a couple of things. So I've really got to get my chops together. MR: Who do you hope to use on this upcoming
record? JR: Lewis Nash, Russell - what's his name
- Monroe, plays guitar. And who else? The
bass player - oh, I don't know. We haven't decided on a bass player yet because
it was George Mraz and I heard George Mraz had some difficulty about the date. It might be Peter Washington, who is very
fine. And we haven't settled it yet. MR: Well I look forward to it. I hope it goes well for you. Is there any dates, you know, I don't know
if the students have any idea what it might be like to get a call to do a session, whether
it's a commercial session or something. Is that a pretty high pressure situation,
when you walk into a studio and they put the music in front of you and roll tape? JR: And you have to do it in three times. MR: Is that about the limit? JR: Well generally, I think about it as rehearsing
it, run over it, or play it three times. By the third time you're wasting a lot of
people's time if you're not able to play it. But it is a pressure job, it is. Because one thing, one big thing about the
pressure, is you're not playing for people, which is, playing before people is much more
relaxed than playing with a microphone sitting in your face. Because you know then, even though you're
recording while you're playing before people, the microphone itself just sitting there reminds
you that this is going for posterity and you can not make a mistake. And that's pressure, pressure, pressure, all
the time. MR: Has your career allowed you to do any
traveling? I know you've been to Europe with Quincy. JR: Oh, yeah, I've traveled with various groups. I've gone to Sweden on my own and worked with
groups over there. Finland, Spain, Portugal, France. MR: Do you find it fairly easy to fit in with
European trios? Do they know the same repertory? JR: Most of them know almost the same stuff. And if they don't then you find something
that they do know. There is a young man whose name I will not
mention who went over to France and cussed them out because they didn't know what he
knew. So by the time we got to France, I think we
came to France about a year later. And what was I doing? Oh I was doing the show "Ain't Misbehaving." And I ran into some of the musicians that
had worked with this person. They said when they went in, the whole union
of French musicians just said, no more. MR: Wow. That's going back to what we were talking
about earlier, with attitude. JR: You can't, just because those people speak
another language, that doesn't mean that they're dumb, ignorant people. They're human beings. And they know, even though they may not understand
quite what you're saying, they know that you're not saying any nice things. And you're evil. And any time, in any language, somebody is
angry, you can always tell it, whether you know what they're saying or not. But that's one thing I like to do is learn
something about their language. It's fun to me. I like to try to learn something, just maybe
one line. Just enough to make them smile. MR: Well this has been a fascinating hour. JR: Yeah, it has. MR: I'm so glad, not only that you could come,
but that I got to hear you play with that marvelous group. JR: Well I'm glad you came to hear the band. I'm really glad that you called me to do this. It's really a worthy cause and I hope you
got something out of it. MR: We certainly did. So on behalf of Hamilton College I'd like
to thank Jerome Richardson for sharing your career. JR: Thank you very much.
