Jeremy Paxman Interviews Michael Howard | BBC

somebody can thank you now Michael Howard is with us in the studio at mr. had do you condemn these stories about flowers and dinners and chocolates yes and they do not come from my campaign team let me make that absolutely clear and my understanding is that the journalist who wrote the story in the Daily Mail to which you have referred has confirmed that he did not speak to anyone in or near my campaign team before he raped that article clearly they came from somebody sympathetic to you though well not necessarily at all I have no idea who they came from if you look at the article as a whole it's not a particularly sympathetic piece but do you agree that such stories are cheap and nasty and bring shame on anyone who spreads them I don't think we should be wasting anybody's time talking about stories like that I don't think they should ever have appeared in the public prints and I don't think we should waste our time talking about them there are serious issues to be discussed since they've been raised about the dismissal of Derek Lewis as head of the Prison Service a decision which I had to take in the light of an independent report not mentioned in your introduction which came to the conclusion that there were inexcusable weaknesses in the management of the Prison Service from top to bottom why did you ball out and Widdecombe for sending flowers in it what she calls a Christian gesture to mrs. Lewis I didn't as she indeed has just confirmed she said you were extremely she said I didn't ball her out she said she objected to the words ball out but she said you were extremely agitated about it I thought it was an inappropriate thing to do given that I had just dismissed mrs. Lewis's husband but I hope we're not going to spend this in no talking about flowers and things like that mr. Howard have you ever lied in any public statement certainly not I gave a very full account of the dismissal of Derek Lewis to the House of Commons Select Committee and to the House of Commons itself in a debate that took place there can have been few decisions that have been subjected to more clothes and minut scrutiny in recent years than that decision it's what is it was a decision that it was necessary for me to take after terrorists had escaped from white Moor other dangerous prisoners had escaped from Parker first and an independent report had found that there were serious weaknesses in the management of the prison service from top to bottom is there anything you would wish to change about your statement to the House of Commons or any other public statement you made about this matter no nothing no I gave a full account of what had happened in relation to my decision right can you help us with this then you stated in your statement that the leader of the Opposition had said that I that is you personally told mr. Lewis the governor of Parker should be suspended immediately that when mr. Lewis objected as it was an operational matter I threatened to instruct him to do it Derek Lewis says how it had certainly told me that the governor of Parker should be suspended and had threatened to overrule me are you saying mr. Lewis is lying I have given a full account of this and the position is what I tell the House of Commons and let me tell you what the position was saying that mr. Lewis lie let me tell you exactly what the position is I was entitled to be consulted yes and I was consulted I was entitled to express an opinion I did express an opinion I was not entitled to instruct Derek Lewis what to do and I did not instruct him what are you his n'ver and you will understand and with all that mr. Marriott was not suspended he was moved and Derek Lewis told the Select Committee of the House of Commons that it was his opinion Derek Lewis's opinion that he should be moved immediately that is what happened mr. Lewis says I that as mr. Lewis told him what we had decided about married and why he that is you exploded simply moving the governor was politically unpalatable it sounded indecisive it would be seen as a fudge if I did not change my mind and suspend mariette he would have to consider overruling me mr. Marriott both be right mr. Marriott was not suspended I was entitled to express my views I was entitled to be concerned he threatened well I was not entitled to instruct Derek Lewis and I did not instruct him and the truth and to overrule the truth of the matter is that mr. Marriott was not suspended I do not ruled him I did not overrule dairy did you threaten to overrule I took advice on what I could or could not do you threatened I overruled him sir loosely in accordance with that advice I did not overrule doubt you threatened to us the Marriott was not suspended you threatened to overrule him I have accounted for my decision to dismiss Derrick Lewis did you threaten to enroll him detail before the house of calm I know you're not answering the question whether you threatened to overrule him the the important aspect of this which it's very clear to bear in mind I'll try I'm going to be rightfully rude but yes you know I am sorry it's in quite a straight yes or no sir when I was hiring if you know if you threaten to overrule him I discussed this matter with Derrick Lewis I gave him the benefit of my opinion I gave him the benefit of my opinion in strong language but I did not instruct him because I was not entitled to instruct him I was entitled to express my opinion and that is what I did with respect that is not answering the question of whether you threatened to overrule him it's dealing with the relevant point which is what I was entitled to do and what I was not entitled to do and I have dealt with this in detail before the House of Commons and before the Select Committee with respect you haven't asked the question whether you threatened to overrule him well you see the question is what was I entitled to do and what was I not entitled to do I was not entitled to instruct him and I did not do that right I will leave we'll leave that aspect there and move on to this question of your bid for the leadership of the party wouldn't a reasonable person conclude that someone who is unable even to unify a very small ministerial team in less than two weeks of losing office is quite incapable of unifying a party I think that there will be many of my colleagues who will understand that we have to take some tough decisions if we are to recover the fortunes of our party and if you are to take tough decisions that means that you won't always be able to obtain unanimous agreement I had to overrule and with come on the question of the dismissal of Derek Lewis in the light of an independent report which said that there were serious weaknesses in the management of the Prison Service from top to bottom and I was prepared to take that decision it was not an easy decision to take because I thought it was my duty to take that decision in the interest of the public if the rest of your ministerial team failed to come out and support you for the leadership would you then be prepared to concede that you perhaps don't have the capability of unifying your party well the minister who has worked longest and closest with me for a period of five years both at the Department of the Environment and the Home Office is one of my strongest supporters and a leading member of my campaign team other ministers who've worked very closely with me are strong supporters and in my campaign team my two PPS is that I've had during the time that I've been Home Secretary are strong supporters of mine and in my campaign team so I think if you look at most of those who've worked very closely with me you will find that they are amongst my strongest supporters do you seriously expect to be leader of your party I think that those in the party who will understand that there is a need for tough decisions to be taken will see that I have taken those tough decisions I have never shirked the responsibility for taking those decisions and I think that that is something which they will take very seriously into account when they come to make their decisions Michael hare thank you thank you

Channel: BBC Studios

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Id: Uwlsd8RAoqI

Length: 8min 16sec (496 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 20 2007