>> Jennifer Koh: Hi, Julia. >> Julia Wolfe: Hi Jenny. >> Jennifer Koh: How are you? >> Julia Wolfe: Good. >> Jennifer Koh: So
this is Julia Wolfe, composer extraordinaire. At least for me I feel like I
fell in love with Mink Stole. I think that actually
Mink Stole was one of the first scores I ever saw. And then more recently
I think Steel Hammer and Anthracite Fields I just
found to be unbelievably moving And then of course I feel so fortunate you wrote me
a solo violin piece called Spinning Jenny. >> Julia Wolfe: With
your name in the title. Fun. >> Jennifer Koh: Yay. So I remember doing a book
report when I was a kid on traditional American
kind of handicrafts and it included spinning
jenny and I did -- >> Julia Wolfe: Great. >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. >> Julia Wolfe: Really
[inaudible] >> Jennifer Koh: So but you
I know that you pull so much from kind of American not
folklore but American experience and I was hoping that you
could tell me a little bit more about that, how you find your
sources of kind of inspiration because for different ones
of your works I've noticed or I've read that there were
different personal points of inspiration. >> Julia Wolfe: Yeah. Well first of all it's a
thrill to work with you again. It's really, really fun to have
worked you know done a little Zoom feedback and conversing
so that that's always so fun and so I'm thrilled about that. So the folklore, there actually
is an element of folklore too but the folk music is pretty
deeply in there for me. And I mean I'm a
child of rock and roll but also I have very early
roots in American folk music so especially when I got to college I was playing
folk guitar and picking up the mountain dulcimer,
learning the bones. I was living in Ann
Arbor, Michigan. It's a very big folk town, one of the most famous folk
coffee houses, The Ark, is there and so lot of interesting people
came through town and my music, my musical life has always
been this interesting for me interesting combination
of American folk music, experimental contemporary music and the interesting
intersections between the two. So there's a lot of
fiddling and you'll hear that in Mink Stole as well. So yeah. They're very
natural musical connections for me personally. >> Jennifer Koh: I wanted to ask
you because I feel like in a lot of your works I think including
Mink Stole, you're always kind of bringing forward
the stories of people that we haven't always
heard from and I was hoping you could tell
me a little bit about Mink Stole and the meaning of the title
and the role of the violin and piano within that piece. >> Julia Wolfe: Yeah. You know, my early creative
roots are with words and I went to college thinking I was
going to study social sciences. I was interested in sociological
and political issues and it's in the music. It's in the titles. Eventually it made its
way into text using a lot of American labor
history text and focusing on important labor history
issues but it was very important to me when I was just
thinking about music, no text, what how is it we can
express these ideas that are extra-musical. So I always begin with some sort
of concept or story or element that is outside of the music. With Mink Stole it was really
fun to think about the idea of what used to make
women glamorous. Well it was that
mink stole, you know? It was that gorgeous wrap. And how we've evolved
and our I was thinking about the virtuosity
being the new mink stole. So we don't actually
need to wear the stole. It's fine. Whatever, but really
don't need that mink stole and [inaudible] I was
particularly thrilled to have a woman up
front playing this work because that's what I was
thinking about at the time that it's the virtuosity
and the sort of ferocity, whatever the word is, feistiness
and fierceness of the playing that gives that kind
of power to it so it's a fun play on the image. It's what I have several
pieces that I kind of think of as my feminist manifestos. Of course [inaudible] music
so not everybody is going to see it right up front
but and this is one of them. So you're out there. You're like a powerhouse, you
know, fiddling it down so. >> Jennifer Koh: I think in
the COVID times I have a mask so if I feel like one of those
masked comic book characters but yeah. I think it was really
interesting to meet you in person the first time I think because I had known your music
first and there is such a kind of fierceness and there's
a kind of no holding back and then you're so
gentle in person. Not that I expected you to be
you know yeah kind of screaming in my face, but it kind
of reminded me this kind of how music can reveal I
think on the inside who we are and I think what
I admire so much about you is not only
your artistry but kind of your perseverance and you
were you are so revolutionary in terms of the background
you came from musically and how you kind of pushed this
new voice into classical music. Was that something that -- did you feel embraced into
classical music or by it kind of I'm just curious myself
because my own experiences. Did you feel embraced when you
first entered the music world or was it just something -- >> Julia Wolfe: Definitely not. So [inaudible] entered but I
well first of all I that comment that you made about the
I have a sort of kind of easygoing personality
and then I've got this sort of more kind of aggressive
over the top music. I've head this before and
it is really interesting. I think that artists can be
so different from their art and I draw strength on
kind of massing power. Let's have some large
groups of musicians or even in this case in a duo. You guys are both sort of
full steam the whole time and there's something very
exciting about that to me but there often can be this
mismatch of an artist's demeanor and then what really excites
them in terms of music so I do recognize that. You know, I also felt like
some of that might have come out because I remember
having my you know struggles through the various music
programs in the old days when what I was doing
wasn't so welcomed and you know I hear
various comments, oh women they write very pretty
music, you know, it's usually like a lilting flute
melody that you know -- >> Jennifer Koh: I'm sure
you wrote like [roars]. >> Julia Wolfe: And I was like, I'm not going to
do that, you know? It was just it was sort of a
challenge hearing that feedback and the kind of expectation
people had that it should be a certain kind
of sensual, sweet, whatever, what they would expect from me. And so it was it's
good I like a challenge and I love the athleticism. It's so fun to watch you play
Mink Stole and I think a lot about the physicality
and the athleticism. So but you know, the
road's been interesting and an interesting
journey, you know? I definitely came in from
the outside in the sense that I said I started in a liberal arts program
an alternative liberal arts program, which is a
great place, you know? We were at protests I think
more than we were in class in the classroom so this was
at the University of Michigan at the residential college so
really interesting thinkers and it's still with me but as
I entered a more narrow idea about art and music I felt
really constricted and so I had to kind of bust out and some of
that busting out was writing, working in theater and working
with some choreographers but then eventually
you know teaming up with my buddies
Michael Grodin and David Lang at Bang on a Can. That was very liberating because
they're like anything's possible and so I think that for a lot of
artists finding your home base and like-minded thinkers
is an incredible support in what could be a very
isolated activity, you know? >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. >> Julia Wolfe: You're in
your studio writing music. But it's been challenging. Definitely have hit some
walls at different times but at a certain point
you go, oh well, you know? Just do what I do. >> Jennifer Koh: I think
I admire you though because sometimes people I think
can carry that kind of wound for the rest of their lives
and what I really admire is that you do a summer
program for other composers so that they feel that part of
community that you kind of spoke about with David and
Michael and so what was kind of your inspiration point to
kind of start that festival? >> It's a good question. You know, why do we start
any of these things? I think that it's because we had
a certain kind of experience, some positive experiences
but some experiences in a musical context that felt
that something was missing. And so it you know starting
the festival was kind of like well we don't
really fit in anywhere. Let's create a scene or create
a world that we feel really good in and this [inaudible] too
which is up at [inaudible] where I am now actually
I'm up at Massachusetts, northwestern Massachusetts. It's just so fun to dive in
and create a summer festival that seems really like all the
fun things we would have wanted to do so performers coming
from all over the world. They're young. They're just at the beginning of
their careers in the 20s and 30s and playing music by living
composers so I guess one of the biggest points
is that and a lot of summer festivals there might
be a contemporary component but it's real on the side. Maybe it's advertised, maybe
not and this was all about music of today and living
composers and so composers and the performers all hang out
and are making music and reading down crazy rhythms all day long. And it's just probably
it's the some maybe some of the more experimental
people and the environments that they're in and then
they meet each other. It's kind of like a dating
service we say sometimes. But and they go out. They meet there. They start their own festivals. They start their own record
labels and we really wanted to not like this like hold in
like you know the reins just that we're doing this. There's another generation's
going to leave their mark on the scene and so yeah. Lots of people formed
ensembles out of that festival and so we hope to get
back up and running when everyone's out
of their cages. >> Jennifer Koh: I love the fact
that you kind of built the world that you wished had
been open to you, right? And that's really I
admire that so much. And creating that environment for the younger generation,
right? So that they have a better
experience a more positive experience and then
for me I love the fact of people will actually
go much further than I do in my lifetime, right? So I think that's what you're -- >> Julia Wolfe: You're
a champion. >> Jennifer Koh: Huh? >> Julia Wolfe: I said
you've gone pretty far. And I should also say
like I love working with the large institutions
as well, you know. But it's really feels
good to come to them. I think you're probably
experienced in this as well. You come to them
with who you are as opposed to knock on the door. Well is anybody going
to answer my knock? This is who I am and
this is what I do and so when that happens is I
mean I love my home base at the [inaudible] but
also you know is part of my life is interfacing with
orchestras or you know choirs in different contexts and
so then they can see well so what you've built and who you
are and it makes sense for them. That's also great too but
I think it's good to know who you are and to
start from there and then have a conversation. >> Jennifer Koh: So I think Mink
Stole, I love Mink Stole first of all because it's
an early piece, right? And then what you were kind of
talking about, the expectations that women are supposed to play
in a pretty way, are supposed to make pretty art, right? But it's what I really loved
about working on Mink Stole and what I love in the piece
is that it embraces all sides. So there is that there are those
sweet melodic moments, right? And it's really contrasted and sometimes it's pretty it's
pretty immediately contrasted, right? It's kind of moving back
and forth pretty quickly and I was actually thinking how
truthful it is to people's kind of internal emotional
states, right? Because we're not just
all one constant emotion for the entire day, right? A lot of times I mean we can't
act it out as adults, you know, like maybe babies can do
that, like, ahh, I'm hungry. Ah, oh my god, I'm
cold, you now? But as adults we -- >> Julia Wolfe: I like that. That's sort of what
the piece is like. >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. So like, oh wait I like this. Oh no. But it's really how human
beings I think I mean we learn not to do that outwardly to
everybody else but I think kind of emotionally we're like that so I really love I love
the truth in your piece. >> Julia Wolfe: Well it
was really fun to rehearse with you guys because
you could play with that. And I remember sitting in
rehearsal saying it's kind of schizophrenic, and by schizophrenic you
know it's [inaudible] use of the word obviously but that
we can use like a sound that's like super sweet and then
suddenly you now something kind of breaks in and disrupts it
and then it flows back out so that kind of shifting back and
forth is a lot of the character of the piece, how one contrasts
another or how one morphs into the other and yeah
it's fun to play with that and you guys rocked it. >> Jennifer Koh: I love the fact that in the rehearsal I
mean this is still on Zoom because of the pandemic
but in the rehearsal that you added actually like
four extra bars on the end which was fun that like
that's what I love working with composers, right? Because every day is
different, you know? And how we hear things. I mean for me as a performer
how I heard something a year ago to today or how I would play
something is totally different and what's I thought it was
really, really cool actually. >> Julia Wolfe: I actually
can't believe that I did that. I was like, oh wait, I just
changed the piece you know? Do I have to change
the date of completion? No. But it's no it's good
that you're so open to it too because you I'm always hearing
things in different ways and even the body of the piece
is there suddenly you realize, oh, what if that violin's
just trailing off at the end as opposed to you know a sharp
cut both players together. You know, maybe both versions
work but it's I'm a tweaker. I'd like to say pieces aren't
finished-finished but watch out if I get close
to a piece again. Wow, I'm going to rethink that. And there have been a few pieces
I've actually seriously revised but for the most part it's just
in those moments of working with a player, maybe something
you did sort of suggested that and I just thought there's Jenny and why is should it
just end right there? Maybe it should just
dissipate, you know? And so it's great to it's good
to have to have that liberty. >> Jennifer Koh: Do you so
do you write pretty closely for your performers if you know
the person that's playing it or the ensemble or the group? Or is it something that
you're like oh, okay. This is for a 40 member
chorus or something like that or do you really think about
like the individuals within. >> Julia Wolfe: Well I love
to think about the individuals and when I can I do and I'm
definitely drawing inspiration from performers. It's such a gift. It's my favorite thing to get
in the room with a performer and just try things out, hear
what things they love to do are and just think about
their energy and their incredible skill set. Everyone has a very different
skill sets obviously playing different kinds of music so
that's my favorite thing. It doesn't always happen
and it's interesting. Sometimes I haven't had a
chance to meet the group. I can think you know one example where this orchestra piece
Cruel Sister and I didn't get to meet the group and it was
premiered and someone who was in a different string orchestra
came and heard that premier and they were like,
that piece was for us. That's our piece. I just hear that and so it
transferred to the other group and they really lived the piece
so I guess I was writing it for them in my consciousness
even though I didn't know I was so there are times
where I've written it but then someone else picks
it up and makes it their own and that's also really
exciting and rewarding. But I guess if I can I
think about the player and there are times when I think
about challenging the player. If I'm writing -- I
remember this recent piece for the New York Philharmonic
I was like, I have to try to do something that they
don't usually do and you know, there are orchestral moments
in the piece I mean it sounds like an orchestra
for the most part. Sometimes it sounds
like a factory actually, but that's fun too to just think
they do this thing but what if they did this
other thing and try to push the form a little bit
and you know bring it closer to the world that
I'm coming from. So it's a combination of
leaning from the player and then maybe offering
something that's new. >> Jennifer Koh:
When you have works that are performed
you know by a number of different I'm always curious
about this because I feel like sometimes composers
have like a very set idea and it doesn't matter
who's playing it. That this is just the
piece and it has to fit within this parameter, right? And but in other ways I so
I'm curious if your concept of if your concept has
ever shifted according to the performer like maybe because personally I
found it really liberating when I was younger to do new
music because composers are so flexible so it
was a discussion versus my training was pretty
well pretty it was specifically dramatic Austrian
tradition, right? Or Viennese school and yeah,
very European based which is which means that it's just
constantly like oh what does that like dash mean
in the Schubert. Is that a dash or
is that a comma? Or did he mean a dot? You know, so it's you'll
spend like hours in rehearsal like trying this
or this and then and then sometimes I just feel
like we should just play this and see what's natural and I
feel like that would be fine but so I but I found
it liberating working with composers because
there was flexibility but not every single
composer is like that but have you ever found that
you realize something different about your piece
from a performance from a different performer
or different ensemble? >> Julia Wolfe: Yeah. And hopefully a strong
piece lasts through many different
realizations but it totally changes. I mean, that's one
of the things I love about music is it's kind
of channeled through. God knows where I get the music
from it channels from somewhere and then it goes through
me and then it goes through you, you know? And so there's a certain kind
of channeling there's going to be a chemistry that happens. It's going to be like
no one else playing it. And yes there's the piece more
or less because it is notated. I am a control freak in the
sense it's pretty darn notated. There's few open somewhat open
notation things that we went over but which is fun, I like
to free it up in certain spots so you're not totally
tied to the piece but it's really notated music. But nonetheless, it's just
a bunch of dots on a piece of paper so when it lives and
breathes, it's really going to live and breathe
through the player. And I love that and
I mean this piece in particular might as well. It's been sitting in the box,
you know I mean I did it early on and so you're
reviving it Jenny. You know, I have
loved writing it and it's been played a
couple you know a few times and by some great players but
I it really hasn't been played for a while that I know of. I mean I guess I haven't
kept track but that I or that where I've interfaced
with it [inaudible]. So it's really fun to
remind myself of where I was or what I was thinking
and it totally changes. It's been a beautiful
realization of the piece and yeah. So that's I think
that's one of the joys. I never feel something is sort
of stuck in place, you know. >> Jennifer Koh: I love the
fact that it was handwritten. >> Julia Wolfe: Was its
handwritten or partly? I can't remember now -- >> Jennifer Koh: No,
it's all handwritten >> Julia Wolfe: Oh,
I know [inaudible] because I was there was
one point where I switched to the computer but I hadn't
it was a pretty early computer moment so I was handwriting
in dynamics so the notes were computer
printed but then handwritten. I forgot this was yeah that's -- >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. >> Julia Wolfe: Takes me back. >> Jennifer Koh:
I kind of like it. I mean I kind of feel
like they're I feel like I can hear a
difference with people who started handwriting versus
who people that have only worked on computers and there's
something and you know because people associate
certain kinds of or certain schools of music. I don't really believe in genre
but that you know with a kind of oh, this is like this
sounds like a machine or like something
that's not human. So I think it's a way to
kind of dismiss it actually but what's interesting to me is that you can see sometimes just
the care even if there's even if a section is repeated
but even you can see in the actual engraving how
it's written with the pen or the pencil the
different meaning. I know it sounds
strange but it's like even the slightest
mush of a dot or something. >> Julia Wolfe: Oh and some
of those old scores are so beautiful and that is that's
even artistically it's kind of a loss musically [inaudible]
scores I mean you know or even the scratchy Louis
Andresen [phonetic] scores that are totally raw and
the energy you can see it like what you're saying
you can see it on the page. I'm grateful for the
new tools too actually because you're right
you can't just rely on the computer playback. It lies to you. And it can be very mechanical
but there's something about I enjoy about the
distance of being to kind of get a sense of time. I remember in the early days
just being at the piano, writing with a pencil on paper. I always found it challenging
to get a sense of duration. Like how long was that,
like it felt that long. I guess if I used my stopwatches
that long but there's so I do I do use computer now a
lot of times for sort of lengths of sections but it
doesn't tell the truth and people can do some pretty
good simulations these days but I think in the end yeah. And I think a lot of
composers go back and forth. At least I can say I do
between getting the score onto the Sibelius which is
what I use and then going back to the piano and getting
the notebooks out. I do a lot out of I can't
see a notebook right here. Oh here's one. You know I spend a lot of time
doodling okay yes doodling but I have tons of notebooks. Yes this is one of my
favorite yellow ones where I'm just writing
down thoughts so it's good to step away from so if
you're working on a laptop or you're working on a desktop. Step away from it. Think, write in journals,
write notes. Usually I'm writing words down
more than some of those are like little scratchy notes
down too on this but it's good to take a walk [inaudible] I
take a walk I go things just click, you know? It's so interesting
like I'll be in my head. How am I going to
fix this section? I got to go out and take a walk
and on that walk I go oh yeah, especially when we
breathe a little bit and you get a little distance. I don't know if you feel
that as performer but just that walk can really like
you know leave you a moment of openness and so yeah. If you can walk. It's a challenge right
at this moment but. >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. I mean I usually work off paper
and it's only been the pandemic that has so I was working
on your piece on an iPad which I'm it's not that I'm
against iPads but I think it's I like seeing even
erasure marks on paper so I can see how you know the
different it might not be still in pencil but I can see like
how much even from like the wear and tear of the paper how
many times I've rethought this section over and over again. Which I you don't get
on an iPad, right? Because it's like
perfectly erased and then you will never
know what happened before. >> Julia Wolfe: I haven't
thought about that. There's no history. Yeah. >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. So I mean I printed
out your score just because for me paper gives me
more of a sense of the structure because like on PDFs
or on screens it's like maximum two pages at the
same time and I can't feel like the amount in my
hand and then I can't kind of have a larger concept
of the whole piece. I feel like unless I
have it in my hand. I don't know. Maybe but I feel like I sound
like I'm super old fashioned. >> Julia Wolfe: Yeah. If I'm in a rehearsal I got this
iPad thinking oh, this is great. I don't have to carry
any scores with me. I'm just going to --
and I can't deal with it at all in the rehearsal. [inaudible] big it's
a big score. I go how to do I scroll and
find where that -- I always -- >> Jennifer Koh: You can't
find anything, right? >> Julia Wolfe: -- hold
the paper in my hand. Turn to the page. That I'm old fashioned that
way but I also feel that I like to hold a book
and turn the page. >> Jennifer Koh:
People are going to say that we're so like 20th century. >> Julia Wolfe: Oh then maybe
it'll come back in style. >> Jennifer Koh: Oh
yeah, like vinyl. We're actually ahead
of the curve. I don't know. Is there anything else you
want you'd like to talk about? >> Julia Wolfe: Well I
think it's remarkable that you're doing
this right now. I mean you're [inaudible]
Library of Congress and you know there's this need
to create and need to make art and sometimes I think it's kind of well I think personally
it's saving me through this time period
very stressful and confusing and overwhelming time period
on so many levels and for so many reasons and the music
just takes you somewhere else, you know? You can just dive right in and
get it all out into the music or escape, whatever however
the music works for you and so that you're doing that you
know staying create and active and playing and it's
an inspiration. I think it's an inspiration
for all other younger players who are wondering ahhh,
you know, what's next? I mean it's going to go
away you know eventually. But so you take this moment and make things happen
that's fantastic. >> Jennifer Koh: I hope like
the younger performers know or younger musicians that I or
all of us are also feeling ahhh. Except we just have a
longer history so we know that there will be an end
to this particular period so there is the next
chapter will come but it doesn't make this
period of time easier I think but at least we can be
comforted that we'll get on the other side of this. It's been hard for I mean so for
this recital, I haven't played with another person
for well first of all I you now I
started Suzuki violin which means I started
really young. I started at three years
old and Suzuki they have you up on stage, granted it's like
those like group performances, you know, where everybody's
playing, I don't know, Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star
together, you know? But I'd played it was the
first live show I had played since I think the first
couple days of March. I did I think last week
at Lincoln Center outside and I actually broke
down crying. >> Julia Wolfe: Yeah. Oh it was very emotional
I can imagine. >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. I haven't gone this
long without performing since before I was three years
old which is a really long time. >> Julia Wolfe: Crazy. Yeah. >> Jennifer Koh: Yeah. And then not making -- so it was
really it felt really meaningful to make music with Tom and even
though you know we didn't see you in person and didn't
rehearse with you in person, it meant a lot too that you
took the time also to listen to us even though it's not
ideal of course on Zoom. >> Julia Wolfe: [inaudible]
I mean, ,considering, I mean I almost feel
like how can we luck out that this technology
hit this point when this crisis happened? [inaudible] you go back ten
years we [inaudible] not ten years, five years maybe. And there's some little
glitches you know [inaudible] but I can rehearse with you
guys and I'm in Massachusetts and you were in upstate
New York at the moment. It's crazy. It's like some weird
sci-fi magic you know? So I do really appreciate that it would be far more
isolated not to have it. Like you said again the sound
is going to be different but you know, I can hear
through bad speakers I can hear the [inaudible]. You sounded great and so
I yeah I felt really happy to connect [inaudible]
people [inaudible] music. >> Jennifer Koh: Live music. Oh my god. Yeah. >> Julia Wolfe: [inaudible]
outdoors I think that that's you know some of
this is really interesting some of this creative efforts to
combat this situation we're in. Playing outside. I love the eating outside. It's just amazing in
New York City where most of the time you know most
streets have been taken over like they've been taking
over the sidewalk they took over the parking places
and they put tables there and then heaters or the you
know I'm just like yeah. It's cool and you
know it's obviously for a very terrible reason
that they have to do it but the ingenuity and the
drive to make things alive and keep going is beautiful so
there are these silver linings and I think you guys playing
together getting together and finding a way to do this
program it's a beautiful thing and so you know it shows the
spirit of you and your music. >> Jennifer Koh: Music. To music. It'll get us through
to the end of this pandemic. It probably will.
