-Our next guest served
as White House press secretary for President Biden. She now hosts
"Inside with Jen Psaki," which airs Sundays at noon and
Monday nights at 8:00 on MSNBC. Please welcome to the show
Jen Psaki, everyone. [ Cheers and applause ] ♪♪ ♪♪ Well, let's just get started. -What a time to be alive
in our country. -What a time to be --
What a time to not be the press secretary.
[ Laughter ] -That is true.
-Yeah. -That is true.
-Are you happy? Do you have -- do you have
empathy for Karine, who is currently doing
your former job? -Of course. I mean, I worked very closely
with Karine. I stay in touch
with a lot of the staff. A lot of them worked for me. And I actually think
a lot about the team there and on the campaign
and how hard this is. I mean, most of them
don't entirely know what exactly is happening
or what's going to happen. None of us do.
[ Laughter ] But they also
are just working really hard to defeat Donald Trump,
and it's difficult. So I have empathy, but I would definitely
rather be here with you than answering hundreds
of questions about how many times a neurologist
visited the White House. No question about it. -Those are not the right kind of
questions you want to be asked. And I will say, you know,
certainly during the Trump era, I feel as though press
conferences were on my, you know, TV screen
all day long, right? That was a big part of covering
it, because it was so... -It was like, "How much bleach
should I inject?" -Yes, exactly.
[ Laughter ] -"What should happen?" -There's been less of that
in the Biden era. But now, of course,
it's changed. Now I feel like everybody
is sort of watching everything that's being said. Is that a bad sign
for an administration when press conferences become
must-see TV? -Well, I mean, if it
was must-see TV in the country, and the press secretary
was explaining, "Here's what we're doing on your
healthcare and infrastructure," then it would be a good thing, but people don't tune
in to that. So, no, it's not a good sign
when everybody's taking it live and the questions are
predominantly about the president's health
and well-being. -Yes.
-That is not a not a good sign on how things are going. -And certainly the fallout
from this debate has been, you know, considerable.
And how do you feel the White House
is handling the fallout? Is this
how you would be doing it? We haven't seen, obviously,
too much of the president. We saw him, you know,
speak very you know, uh -- you know, very well
about NATO, and, obviously, he's
doing a press conference that, you know,
will have happened before people are seeing this.
I'm sorry. We're doing this
three days ago. No. [ Laughter ] -There's a press conference
that is high stakes, I heard earlier in the show.
Very high stakes. -How are they handling it,
do you think? -Well, first, I think it's
important for people to know, and you know this --
I mean, presidents -- When you're advising a
president, advice to presidents, you don't just
walk in there and say, "I think you should do this," and they say, "Great.
Thank you for your idea. I'm going to go out
and do it now." That's not how it operates. -They're like,
"Today, Jen calls the shots." -"Today's Jen's day!
Anything she wants to do." So what people don't understand
is, there's a lot of advisors who may be telling him, "Here's
what you should be doing. You should be out there more,
you should be doing more events, should should be engaging
with people." He's clearly not doing that. That's one of the reasons why it's such a
"high-stakes press conference," 'cause everybody keeps
using that phrase, as you said,
because the pressure is on it. They haven't seen him a lot. At the same time,
it's also your job when you're advising a president
to bring out their magic. I know that's a weird way
of saying it, but President Biden's
magic is not necessarily press conferences.
[ Laughter ] I think it's safe to say. It's not even really
necessarily interviews. It's his interactions
with people. He's incredibly empathetic.
He cares about -- He loves to hold babies.
He legitimately loves them. He likes to travel
with members of Congress, said no one ever,
except for Joe Biden. [ Laughter ] So that you're not seeing, and because you're not seeing
and the public is not seeing him and the magic of Joe Biden,
you're relying on how is he going to answer
the ninth question about his mental acuity
at a press conference. And in that sense,
the strategy is not going well. Oh! Can I say one
more thing about the strategy? Is that nobody knows
the path forward, and members
of Congress and people who are rooting for him
want to know, "How do you win this race? How do you defeat Donald Trump?" People just want
a little something to go with, and they don't have it. -It's interesting you say
that because, of course, one of the things
about Donald Trump is, you know, he speaks all the time that you sort of forget
how crazy he sounds. [ Laughter ] That if Donald Trump -- If what Donald Trump
did yesterday was the only time we'd seen
him in the last two months, you'd be like, "What the [bleep]
is wrong with that guy?" -You would be like, "What the
[bleep] is wrong with that guy?" -But he just floods the zone. -And so I think one of
the things working against President Biden is because we
see him, you know, less, you just put so much more
into what you're seeing. You mentioned members
of Congress. You know, obviously, they're
out there questioning, as well. They don't know. Um, at the same time,
they seem to say, "We need to know whether he's
going to stay in or stay out." And he's been very clear
with that answer. -I mean, this is
the craziest thing happening in Washington right now. And I live there,
and I love Washington, but members of Congress are doing these carefully
worded, painful statements, a lot of them, that are like,
"I believe in Joe Biden, and I know he's going to make
the right decision for our democracy."
Right? And then he's saying,
"I'm running. I have no plans
of dropping out." And then they're still saying,
the next day, "I believe he's going to make
the right choice," and he's saying, "I have no
plans to not run for president." "How does this end?"
is sort of the question here. -It does seem, by the fact
that they keep pressing, that obviously
there's an answer they want to hear that is
not the one he keeps giving. -Correct.
[ Laughter ] And he's like, "No, no, guys,
I've made my decision. I'm continuing to run." It's not --
It's a little bit of a circle. -You know,
it does seem like, you know, were he not to, you know, the options would obviously
be Vice President Harris. There's a lot of governors'
names that get floated. Like, is there even a way that people are sort of talking
behind closed doors about who they think
would have a better chance against Donald Trump? -There's lots
of talking behind closed doors right now in Washington
and around the public. I mean, I'm sure --
For July 4th, I would try to change
the subject with my family and friends
to other things, and it was like,
"Yeah, yeah, life is fine. What's going to happen
with this election?" And I think a lot of people
are experiencing that. The Vice President is
the clear alternative for a range of reasons. She is the vice president,
first of all. She could use all the money -- she could take all the money
from the campaign and campaign on it. I think she's an undervalued
communicator, as well. And she would be
the first African-American woman to be a presidential candidate,
which is a huge deal. [ Cheers and applause ] But there's a lot of structural
advantages, too. At the same time, you referenced
Governor Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro, Moore. For anybody who feels really
dark right now who's a Democrat, there is an amazing crop
of people who are going to be running if there's a democracy still
around in a couple of years. That is the good --
the good thing. But it's harder for them because they would
have to inject themselves in and argue that they should
skip over the vice president, that they can raise
the same amount of money, that they can do
the structural -- they can match
the structural advantages. So I think it's
more challenging for them. -You mentioned, you know, if we, you know,
have a democracy in a few years. You know,
we've been talking a lot about this document, Project 2025, because, you know,
while we, you know -- It's not that we lose our focus. I think what's happening,
you know, with the president is serious
and requires attention. But Project 2025,
this is, you know... -Scary.
-...the plan of what the Trump administration, in its second time around,
wants to do. Have you ever seen anything
like it? How outside the norm is this? -Way crazy, wackadoodle,
insane outside of the norm. You know, when it's 900 pages,
it's on the Heritage website, and you can read it,
should you choose. If you're not asleep
just because it's long, it will scare the hell
out of you because there's a lot
of pieces in there. I mean, overall, there's
a lot of things in there, like mass deportations, camps, all sorts of things
that are frightening and scary and alarming and not who we are.
But overall, it's basically a roadmap
for Trump becoming all-powerful. It increases the power of the
executive branch of government. There's a reason
for checks and balances, for three branches
of government, for a judiciary
that's independent, so that they can hold
people to account. That's what it's there for. He wants to get rid of that so he can go after
his political enemies and so that he can use it
as a weapon against people he doesn't like
or who've done him wrong. If that doesn't scare
the hell out of you, I don't know what does. Now, he denies, as you know,
he denies he knows anything. He says he doesn't know
anything about it, then he says it's bad,
and then he wishes them luck. It's like, "What is happening
right now?" But it is his plan put together
by his people who have worked for him before
and will work for him again. -Next week,
we have the RNC. Do you feel as though --
Because I will say, I do think that this,
for as crazy as this Trump campaign has been, it is less crazy
than the last one. He does seem to be
a little bit more on message. -Is it? It's all a bar.
-I know it is. Well, this is
what we go back to. You know,
he has the easiest bar. It's like,
"Yeah, he was slightly cogent." [ Laughter ] Do you think the RNC
is gonna be able to message well the, you know,
sort of maybe -- I don't know -- turmoil within the DNC? Or do you think that we're just going to see
a crazy week of events? -I think they
will be able to message well because nothing's
better for one party than the other party being
in a bit of chaos, and there's a bit of chaos
going on right now. But they've done something
purposeful and alarming and hopefully people will
actually read the fine print and not rely on this.
The RNC platform -- So, the platform
for the convention, which is normally dozens
of pages, if not longer,
is now 16, 17, 18 pages, and it is very short-handed.
Around Russia-Ukraine, it's like,
"Find peace in Europe." I mean, it's just -- it's
all these things that are -- -But why is that
such a bad idea, Jen? -It's basically...
[ Laughter ] We're all for peace in Europe.
-Yeah. -It is treating
the American public like they don't deserve
more detail. And because more detail is
scary, and they know that. But I actually think they'll have a big forum
out there for people to watch. They'll excite their base.
As crazy and insane and dangerous as Trump is,
his base is his base. And these conventions
typically dominate. So that's what
we should expect next week. -It is a scary time. We have children
of similar ages. Yours are 8 and 6.
Are they of the age yet where they have questions
about what's happening with our politics? And are you,
as a former press secretary, good at communicating
those answers? -Well, I want to know
what you say to your kids, too. I mean, my husband and I
met in Democratic politics, so it's clear where
our positions lie, shall I say. But, you know, we don't want
our kids to go to camp and say things like,
"Trump is a fascist," right? So it's like you have
to kind of be careful. My kids do ask questions. My son, who is going
to kindergarten next year, tells people, "Mommy and Donald Trump
hate each other." And I'm like, "We don't --
We don't hate anyone. 'Hate' is a strong word. I don't think
he thinks about me." This is the conversation
we have. -And meanwhile Trump's like,
"I hate her." -"I hate her."
[ Laughter ] -He might be.
But I think about it as kind of, I answer
the questions that they have and I don't go farther.
Right? I had my daughter when I was
the communications director in the Obama White House, and so we have all
these amazing pictures of her with President Obama
kind of in the Oval Office. And my son was born
during the Trump administration, and he feels a little kind of
screwed over by that. -Yeah.
-Which I kind of understand. -Well,
it was bad for a lot of people. Just let him know. -It was a tough period
of time. -Thanks so much
for being here, Jen. Great talking to you.
Jen Psaki, everybody. "Inside with Jen Psaki"
airs Sundays at noon and Monday nights at 8:00 on MSNBC. You can also see her live
in New York on September 7th with other
MSNBC hosts on "MSNBC Live: Democracy 2024." We'll be right back
with more "Late Night."
