Izhmash Saiga 12 v Molot VEPR-12 - AK Shotgun Showdown

hi this is Nisha this video we're going to shoot and talk about Russian 12-gauge shotguns based around the Kalashnikov long stroke gas piston system to load to lug rotating bolt trigger groups and one and so forth in my hands is a Saiga 12 this is the SGL 1294 this is the american export version of the Saiga 12 KS which is the shorter barrel with folding stock and here we have the molot pepper 12 folder again with the shorter barrel of course both of these have 18 a half-inch barrels to comply with the American laws and someone and so forth but they're quite close to the Russian counterparts and these are made in several versions back to the Saiga so this is kind of where it all began when communism fell in the 90s early nineties 91 92 in Russia the previously state-owned factory of it czesc became nominally privatized and was renamed as mush and started to work on a line of rifles and shotguns for hunting use and they would expand later but they were to give these the name of Saiga which is a an antelope type creature and they were mainly originally made for hunting but soon law enforcement and eventually the military would get interested they would start to design these around 94 95 and the Saiga 12-gauge shotgun version was in production by around 1997 now this is obviously a tactical version they had a hunting version which is very similar in the front end here but instead of having the folding stock and pistol grip it had a traditional hunting stock with the trigger group moved to the rear there are so many versions of both of these guns no way can I cover them in this video for example these sega's the most common barrel lengths in russia standard barrel would be about 23 inches for the Saiga 12 and the saiga-12k would have a short 17 inch barrel now for import this has to be extended in America out to 80 and a half of course magazines this is a standard eight round which is mostly used for more tactical things this is the hunting five round most common in Russia although two rounds have been made or modified didn't it work you know after these were made for the civilian market initially police began to get interested and they would start to purchase the 12 KS amongst other versions have also seen 12s with the long barrel folding stock 12 KS being the short barrel folding stock and then the military started to become interested around the turn of the millennium around 99 2000 2001 and they put out some requirements and things they want and so both is mush and molot would start to work on improving a 12 gauge based on the a K now this molot vector 12 wikipedia says that the initial design started off at is maj which is you know there are some major similarities between these two guns so it seems like the the the design may be started with the Saiga but it was quickly carried over to molot who really took it and upgraded it and they would release the Vepr 12 around 2003 now whereas the Saiga was designed as a hunting gun first and then became a military and law enforcement gun the Vepr 12 was really designed from the outset for police military use tactical shooting competition shooting type use so I still had civilian applications but it wasn't really designed as a hunting weapon although you can obviously hunt with this it's still a 12-gauge but that wasn't what was really designed for now this because Moloch produces our PK's is really based on a pretty standard RPK receiver and it has many RPK features we'll get to in just a minute the saiga-12 likewise is based on is marshes a k100 series line including the ak-74 so what's going to have more a.k features for example this is a heavier duty receiver wider here for the log wider barrel but it is still a little thinner all around a little bit lighter gun and it's still based on a more of an ahmadi I take a 70 for a K 100 type receiver the handguard is kind of unique to the Saiga series however the pistol grip and this buttstock are pretty much trade off vak 100 series now it's not surprising that both companies would kind of go with what they already knew and keep in mind the Saiga came first so it's not quite as refined trying to think where to start talking about things kind of comparing and contrasting well let's talk about weight first off this is about a seven and a half to seven and three-quarters pound gun not like but for a 12-gauge shotgun it actually is quite its felt and handy it balances quite well it balances kind of right here this point the Becker on the other hand thanks to its RPK heritage is about an eight and a half to nine pound weapon again several variations exist oh and I mentioned on this one the standard barrel length is 17 to 23 on this one standard barrel length is about sixteen point eight up to about 20 and a half inches standard but they do make 26 and even longer barrel versions for competition shooting and for export to places like Britain so this one can generally that the the longer version has a shorter barrel the two short broad versions area basically the same so let's flip these over and kind of just get to comparing them jump right in the pepper 12 was designed more or less than suit the needs of what the Russian military thought it wanted and the police whereas the Saiga 12 has been modified over the years now this is a pretty traditional earlier Saiga version later Sega's such as the 12 404 will have more of the modern features like the Vepr but this is the really traditional say again starting at the muzzle we have the same thread pitch on both guns now both of these are wearing molot factory flash hiders but the only difference between the molot in the is Maj flash hider is that the is Maj does not have the wrench flats at least the older is marshes I used to have maybe the newer ones they've added them they are chrome lined birdcage style pretty short and effective the barrels on both of these are hammer forged chrome lined the Saiga has a two position manually adjustable gas port gas system and we have a bead front sight here exposed a K style gas tube here and a knotch rear sight here it's windage adjustable there are a plethora of site variations for the for the Saiga 12 there's even a version with a sight tower out here now what's interesting about it that sight tower is actually screwed on to the barrel muzzle muzzle muzzle threads and that has a second set of threads to screw a flash hider on to it and you also see some with more traditional aka 100 series rear sight again I'm just drawing one I have some the pepper 12 on the other hand has a combination gas and site block with a very traditional post adjustable front sight this is a often called a self-regulating gas block there's really no internal mechanism to self-regulate it just holds pressure into the bolt moves back and then gas can escape back here these both use a puck in here to tap the gas piston but it is a non adjustable gas block that's the point I'm making it has a very similar type of upper gas tube here but this has a handguard on it this is RPK style it has a typical RPK 100 or it is made 200 series rear sight with windage adjustment parts just straight off looking at the receivers this one has a slightly thinner receiver with this traditional smooth aka 100 series top cover it's removable we have the side rail for an optic mounted to the side the Vepr as I said has a RPK receiver again both of these are beefed up receivers from standard but the RPK is still a little heavier with the heavier front trunnion fixture we have a top cover with the polymer Picatinny rail connected to it and it is hinged as on an aks74u a crink hinges up and that's to give the rail mounting fixture in the front so it holds 0 because there is no side rail instead we have a left side safety selector here and that's companion ated on the right side by an extended it's a very traditional a ke style selector but has this extended shelf back here for the thumb whereas this saiga-12 just has the traditional a.k safety now these both have this piece right here this acts as a movable part to the dust cover to allow for an ejection port wide enough for the 12 but when the bolts forward it still provides some protection against debris getting in the action especially with your safety up you're pretty well sealed up then the biggest difference would be in the magazine system this uses very typical rock and lock mags like a case there is no automatic bolt hold-open some have a manual hold open here this one has the hole for it I took it out because it was digging into my finger cuz it hangs down when shooting I can put it back in if I need to the Vepr on the other hand does have a last round hole open this flange pops down when it's open let's it go forward this has a mag well and the mags are pretty much drop free they go straight in it even has a manual hold open here if you need to lock it back without a mag in it in addition to just being a little better and having the bolt hold-open this mag will system makes loading a full mag in much easier on the saiga-12 you do have to kind of fight with it especially on a full eight round mag because it is the rock and lock style and they fit a little tight these are still pretty new mags so now as I said before there are newer versions like the four oh four they have copied the mag well system but they're both hold open still not seem to work as well as the mo lot moving down the trigger guard and mag catch are very similar if not almost identical even on ammo lot has this mag well it still has a very traditional aka mag release which is at least ambidextrous which is good these typically come with this oversized organ Amin pistol grip finger grooves the Saiga 12 can either have the more traditional pistol grip is this one or they can have a larger grip like the molot although the ich mosh version does not have the finger grooves in the front it's just smooth and it has this has a smoother texture to it the the is mosh grip has a rougher texture more like the rest of this furniture moving back folding stocks as I said this one pretty much uses an ak-74m style except it does have this rubber butt plate there's just a button on the side the press here trying to get it it cannot store a cleaning kit because of the rubber butt plate to release it there's a button here wherever button you just press and it just knocks has the cutout of course for the scope row and it has the cutout on the bottom for attaching something it's just basically the standard ak-74m the members stock uses uses the same folding hinge mechanism as there are PKS in rpk-74 hem the lever is on the same side in the basic same location as on the SE again but you press it forward and then you can fold the stock over this cheek piece flips to get out of the way let me push it back here and it locks yeah whereas this stock is made out of reinforced polymer this one is mostly tubular steel with polymer but plate has rubber on the end and this movable cheek piece now the release on this is actually in the back here again very RPK style this one has a very stiff stock which is generally a good thing especially for 12-gauge about plate flips up and that's pretty much the walkthrough of the two guns internally the bolt groups themselves are extremely similar as are the trigger groups the biggest internal differences have to do with the magwell here and with the gas block up here it was some sagen Ripper parts interchange some do not and again there are several variations especially of the Saiga 12 I've been looking for solid examples of Russian military use of either of these a lot of websites report that they used the Saiga 12 KS but that's about it I had assumed it's a Special Forces type thing where they get what they want generally speaking the Vepr would be probably better for military you should because it was designed for it however pros and cons comparing the two lengthwise these two models are the same they both have folding stocks as well they both have eight round mags is standard they both use the internal clash anakov system the Saiga is a little bit lighter weight the Vepr probably a little more durable the gas system is kind of a flip of the coin some people like the the automatic version used by the Vepr some people like the manually adjustable system used by the Saiga 12 especially if they're trying to shoot lower power cartridges both of these are rated for 12-gauge 3 2 and 3/4 standard and 3 inch Magnum shells although sometimes it will have trouble cycling lighter loads and it really depends on the individual gun again both have chrome lined bores but generally most would say the Vepr 12 is a better shotgun molot tends to have a little better fit and finish but then again for a long time Sega's were less expensive the Saiga started to come into America sometime a little after 2000 it was first imported by EAA and then after about 2006 it started to be imported by Raa and the last guns were imported by Arsenal and fine guns like this they were the ones to bring in the SGO the first guns all came in with the hunting stock in 2011 there was a big thing involving the ATF where people were afraid the Saiga tour was going to be banned it was basically up for review and people were afraid the ATF was going to declare it non-sporting and therefore no longer and portable so there was a little bit of a panic by on the existing Saiga 12 hunters and people had been converting them by pulling the the hunting stock off putting a trigger forward on it and so on and so forth instead of banning these the ATF declared them not only sporting they even said importing them with a pistol grip and fixed buttstock would be sporting because enough people said hey we use these for a competition shooting and match shooting and so they were they were allowed to start coming in about 2012 you started to see factory pistol grip Saiga 12 is coming in and since that was approved you started to see vapors coming in with pistol grips now the first vapors would come in with a standard rear trunnion in a wood or polymer buttstock fixed and then the next batch with this which this one was a part of would come in with this side folding tubular steel stock finally the folding versions are still coming in and we're up until the sanctions I should say they're still on the market today they also have a fixed stock version that looks identical it just doesn't have any of the folding mechanism inside is just a smooth doesn't have the latch here now when these came in the folding stock was tack welded open but many including mine here by the time I got it the tack lab was already basically cracked and barely hanging on it did the job now most of your Saiga twelves that came in with pistol grips just had a standard rear trunnion and had a standard buttstock on them but a few this SGL 1294 included came in with the folding stock now they only catch there they had a internal block where the stock could only fold with the safety on when the safety was down it kamd a piece of metal into the stock opening here again so you can see it if you see this slot in the bottom of the stock that piece of metal would go into that slot and keep it from folding this wasn't something done for the US market this is actually something done over in Russia folding stocks are legal over there but if the barrel is under a certain length I believe it's under 20 inches in our measurements you can't have it be able to be fired with it folded so civilians over there with a license for a smoothbore can have the 12 s which has the 23 inch barrel and a working folding stock or they can have the 12 KS with the 17 inch barrel and folding stock but if they do that the safety has to be on before the stock can fold therefore rendering the gun inert so you can have a folding stock on a shorter barrel gun but only if the gun doesn't work of course once in the US this doesn't matter to our laws 1 hoot so I pulled the block out of this one immediately because it was stupid when these are sold they usually are sold with the 8th round mags you see in them here excuse me spoke completely reverse that are usually sold with the 5 round mags yep you see here but the eight rounds have been sold separately almost since the beginning and guns like this Sega 1294 did come with an eight round mag so factory eight and even ten rounds for the Vepr 12 have been have been imported by various people now both of these guns are no longer and portable because of sanctions against Russia the Saiga 12 went away in 2014 and the Vepr 12 went away in 2017 but these were imported in quite large numbers and whereas the rifle rappers and Sega's have really shot up in price since the the sanctions the shotguns are still available out there it near pre sanction prices so they're still available I thought we would just do a video comparing these shooting them talking about them they're both interesting guns I generally speaking prefer the Vepr but to Sega it has a good feel to it it is lighter and it has a very traditional a.k buttstock it I don't know I would say it has more of a traditional a K look it's a less at least this version it's kind of a less tactical gun this one also has a really nice trigger I don't know why it's just really nice molot trigger is is a military trigger it's not bad but it's not great just a trigger I will say the safety is on the mo lots are very stiff it makes it hard to use the shelf and it's just kind of sharp steel I've often thought I want a rubber coat both sides because it's just I wish they'd kind of serrated it and put a little coating on it make it a little nicer I mean they already used rubber on the cheek piece and butt plates they had rubber kind of wish they'd do that it is a heavier gun though as I said generally the Vepr 's have always sold for more but then again they use they've almost always come in with more features than the Saiga 12 most Saiga is imported for the hunting versions although there are the SG l 12s a few different versions with more military furniture and once you get up to that they're about the same price point really the saiga-12 94s cost a little more than the Vepr side folders and also the Sega mags the factory mags are quite well before the sanctions these mags are about $100 and the the molot factory mats were about 60 so the Moloch mags were always a little bit a little bit cheaper before the sanction that is now it seems like after the sanctions the molot mags are going up more than the Sega's and I think it's just because if there's a lot of these mole Lots out there and people need mags for them [Applause] you be there I'm not try the other night to be fair that Sega and the Sega mags are brain yeah pepper is not let's but decidedly so could just be a break-in thing I'm gonna I'm gonna reload see we can good almost I've had that last face that fat little snowpack on every say gout hat yeah I think because you don't have to the pressure from the magazine with the next round pumping it out yeah so I even get that on the Vepr occasionally grinders a little right I'm gonna make it worse heavy man good there hi me again just an update the first part we recorded a couple of weeks back and we went out and shot we thought we would just do a little update here how these two worked out put a few rounds through each the say yeah it the first couple of shots was having some minor stovepiping but keep in mind this was a unfired gun before today so after it had a few rounds through it it seemed to smooth out it was still having that last round wasn't quite kicking out which is a common issue I have experienced with light loads and all these a K and AR type shotguns but at the end there the last serve our minds we put through it that was the only malfunction so it was it was smoothing out quite nicely after having a few rounds to it as for the Vepr this one I've had for a number of years and it's had a relatively high round count and it had no surprises they continues to function just fine with pretty much anything comparing how these shoot the straight in mag well in the last round hold open is very pleasant for the molot the Saiga you really have to use the manual hold-open to get a full magazine to fit in because with the boat closed you can't because it has to rock in and obviously you don't get our last automatic last round although it's manual hold open isn't too bad it is lighter and surprisingly the recoil is a little bit lighter feeling to me on this then on the Vepr I do also like the nice kind of spongy butt plate and the ergonomics of the handguard and the stock is quite nice so when this works but it was doing quite well at the end I kind of like how much shoots better you would think being a lighter gun than the mo lot he would have had more felt recoil but I think the mole lot puts a little more gas into its system so you feel its recoil a bit more plus the mo lot has a more squared-off for grip in a tubular stock if you use the cheek rest you're above the sight so you need to fold it away so then your cheek is read against a polymer metal stock and it's butt plate is a little little firmer so on the other hand though last round hold open so I would say feature wise I like this gun and it's definitely a little heavier a little more beefy and it seems to be more reliable more mo forgiving but just for the ergonomics and being kind of lightweight and handy I do like this SGO 1294 plus the trigger in it there's a really nice trigger really nice honestly I probably just got lucky but this one has a really good trigger I like it and the folding stock is just a classic well if you have any questions or comments we welcome a below if you'd like to post pictures and talk about your own vepr 12 versus a good 12 that'd be great if you didn't like the video please click like if you haven't already subscribed they really appreciate it if you could do that at some time as always this is Misha and we'll catch you very soon hopefully in the next video I'll see you then

Channel: Mishaco

Views: 36,215

Rating: 4.9356723 out of 5

Keywords: Educational, Historical, Documentary, Historic, History, Russia, Russian, shotgun, shotguns, Izhmash, Molot, Saiga, VEPR, Saiga 12, VEPR12, VEPR-12, VEPR 12, VEPR12-03, SGL12, SGL12-94, SGL 12-94, folding, folder, stock, 12g, 12 gauge, Arsenal, Arsenal Inc., FIME, WPA, I.O. Inc., import, AK47, AK-47, AK, magazine fed, review, compare, comparison, compared, better, best, worse, worst, RPK, RPK74M, AK74M, hunting, sporting, competition, military, Russian military, police, banned, ban, sanction, mishaco, misha, Saiga 12k, Saiga 12c

Id: qdHjhKBM53Q

Length: 33min 43sec (2023 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 12 2017