Isengard Tier List - Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game | MESBG

[Music] welcome to another episode of into the West podcast my name is Charles with me today are Richard Yan and we have a special guest don don is also a fellow Canadian he is from Ontario Canada and he is part of their league their OSG as well as one of the hosts of north of sh podcast and Don is joining us today to rank all the profiles in Eisen guard yeah thanks for having me on guys really appreciate it big fan of the show happy to be here for viewers who don't know Don also has a podcast um Don can you talk a little bit about north of the Shire podcast for those who are not familiar with it what what it's about and what do you guys discuss and talk over on that show so it's primarily myself and Andrew Brock and so there's me who's like an old guy um and not competitive so I'm into the hobby side I'm into the social side of things that's why I love to play the game but I'm in it for the lws not for the trophies Andrew on the other hand is like he's an accountant so he's got like an incredibly good memory for the rules the armies he knows everything he's won our league two or three times very competitive very good at the game so we sort of approach it from two different sides I guess we do have another couple of friends who occasionally come on Chris who's like a really incredibly good painter and Garrett who uh both of these guys are friends of ours and Garrett's like really experienced in a lot of different game systems by Games Workshop and other companies essentially our podcast is more of a chatty one so like uh we do a lot of uh like you know what have you been working on that kind of stuff we do cover tournaments that we do analysis like we've been doing analysis of missions but we do other stuff too we talk sometimes about things that aren't mesbg related that are just Lord of the Rings things that are happening in the world I like to be very creative and and so because with podcasts and YouTube you guys know you know when you think of a good idea it's like oh crap somebody else has already done that so you're going to bump into people occasionally so like one of the things I'd like to do is I like to write things and create things so you know I like to present that kind of stuff on the podcast because there's literally no risk of having anybody else having done the same thing because it's it's a unique thing so anyway we're kind of all over the place on our podcast but mainly it's just a couple of friends getting together talking about playing mvg at the end of the day I uh I feel called out that we're not as creative you know what it's like you guys are doing battle reports and I think that's probably the most common sort of creative thing people can do on on YouTube and your stuff that you've put out like I say like I I rank your guys battle reports like right up at the top of the stuff that you see on on YouTube you guys have done an incredible job yeah thanks Don definitely takes a while but yeah just um going back to the north of the Shire podcast I definitely recommend it to all the viewers to go check it out it's Audio Only but it's it's great um like you said that you guys cover everything so for all the Hobby Lovers and you know for myself as a more competitive player you guys have a good amount of tactics too like one of my favorite series is when you discuss the different types of armies that's always been really interesting to me like you know you guys have like The Horde Army the uh the big heroes and then yeah you guys have the different names for them but yeah it's great so today uh we're talking about Eisen card we're going to be ranking all the profiles and you've told us previously that this is one of your favorite armies to play what would you say is the reason one of your favorites probably because it's the first one that I had painted to be honest um way back in I think it was 2002 uh back when Games Workshop actually lived in Canada before the United States has had really caught on to Games Workshop we used to have games days here in Toronto and uh we ran Garrett Andrew and myself ran a demo back then I think it was 2002 maybe 2003 for Lord of the Rings and they gave us two armies a Rohan Army and an urai army and I ended up keeping the urai Army and you know we painted enough Ms to use it then and then it sat in my basement one year I just brought it to the cottage and I paint painted the entire thing this was when nobody around here was playing it one day uh in 2014 Adam from Blackfire Productions asked me if I wanted a game and I'm like yeah I have a whole Army for for this game and so I played a game with him and never looked back I just been playing the game ever since it's been my number one game since that day I've always had that Army you know you guys picked it as one of your beginner armies but this is a huge Army and like with the new units that have come out recently with dunland been added to the unit this is one of the bigger armies in the game there's a lot of choices there's tons of different ways you can play this Army like I think this Army has upwards now of like 30 unique units in it um which is massive like you know some armies have like six or you know so there's you can play Eisen guard non-stop basically and enjoy it but you know occasionally I like to play my dwarves too so they have to take a backseat sometimes but yeah I think diversity of the Army is good I've got a lot of experience with the game I mentioned early I'm not the most competitive guy but this is a reliable Army to play too so you know you're using IAI uh you're probably going to win at least one game in a tournament so that's what I like yeah and and you were telling us offline too that you've had over a hundred Eisen guard tournament games so I think you're the you're the right guy to talk to maybe the at the most would say I would say a 100 tournament games yeah wouldn't be surprised if I'm pushing a 100 and I guess it's not the greatest advertisement for the Army when I say I've never won a tournament so there you go 100 100 games and never a winner I'm sure you podiumed a couple times be too humbl on lots of podiums you know i' I've I think I've gone four and0 in tournaments three times and not one see see just don't say you never won just say you Podium a bunch of times yeah lots of podiums on there I like that I like that yeah you're definitely right there there's a so many ways to play this Army because it's so fleshed out and having played it myself it's it's a really beginner friendly Army because they can do a lot of things decently well so that's totally understandable and I'm sure at some point it was one of my favorite armies too well Andrew from from our podcast likes to say that you know they have the Holy Trinity right fight for strength for defense six so when you're starting out with that for 10 points it's like that's pretty solid I just want to mention the sponsor for this video Baron of dice they make nice looking dice for a wide range of games including M Earth SVG you can use our promo code West for 5% off go check out their dice on the website and also want to say a quick thank you to our patrons over on patreon thank you for supporting us and if you're interested in extra content and seeing videos early and other perks please go check it out in the link below let's uh jump into the tier list just to catch viewers up we have a video called the evil men tier list that we did with reineer or earlier last year um please go check it out where we ranked all the profiles that have the man keyword in them so uh what I'm going to do is I'm going to put them all in the tiers that we assigned them to in that tier list so for for detailed analysis and breakdown of those profiles please go watch that video and we'll just briefly go over them to see if our opinions have changed to see if Don has anything to add and um we'll go from there before we dive into uh the Eisen guard profiles that we have yet to cover yeah Don feel free to tell us how wrong we are about these ratings all right don't hold back you got one wrong already I'll tell you [Laughter] that I'm fairly okay with this current ranking maybe I would put like Frida ahead of the oath maker but and then maybe like I don't know the war chief I mean I guess it's okay at the bottom of fortitude so yeah I think for the most part I'm I'm still okay with this yeah I remember we struggled a little bit to put thri in and Valor but uh I think reneer in that video swung the vote I think I feel like you guys you guys struggled to put him up there I I love him yeah yeah he's definitely solid he's definitely solid yeah he's he's strength five he's mounted so you know he's he's definitely got stuff going for him like he has more heroic stats than than most irai Heroes Have so he's got that going for him and he's got Lord of dunlin so 12 inch uh standfast he's got that going for him so there's like one of the builds you can do with this Army is you can do like an orc horde or you can do like a Wildman horde and then you've got three leaders or three Heroes here that can really help your courage and he's one of them so like 12inch standfast for an army like that is big um so I I think he's correctly placed in Valor I don't think gorol is correctly placed in Valor he should be Legend he's an auto take he he's as close as you can get to an auto take in this Army now um if you're not taking him in your Eisen guard Army you're doing something wrong like he he's he should be in every Eisen guard Army he's that good I think that's a good argument um I think that he's definitely close for me um I wouldn't be opposed to shifting him up I guess um in the scope of like comparison to other profiles as well in other lists like yeah um like not just in Eisen guard then um I think like if he was a hero of Valor himself right um that would probably swing it for me but just because probably because just being a hero of fortitude has some limitations on alliances and also leading the Warriors um yeah absolutely that's a good point the fortitude does possibly drag him down um I think the reason why I like him so much is is um basically the hole that he plugs in your army so you know this Army is vulnerable to Cavalry it's also vulnerable to big heroes because they don't have one of their own right and gorol can deal with a big hero so um numerous games I've like just shut down like a you know a 150 Point hero with gorol for like five turns in a row um and you know he he wins you the game just because of that one thing um so he he's big for me I think at the very least he should be at the top of Valor I mean there's only two there right now but I could live with him being at the top of Valor what do you think boys do we do we shift him to Legend uh I I mean so he's 70 points and like the fight five with three attacks for like only 70 points that's pretty cheap like what else is cheaper than three attacks like Hunter is there anything else yeah he's a good heroic defense hero but he's also in the position where he can like threaten enemy Heroes if he wins the fight so it's not like they just want to let him win which is really good like it's rare to get like both of those things where it's like they're incredible threat even when they call heroic defense I don't know it's good yeah in your list you also have Maher I know he doesn't have strike but he's also around the same points for for three tack fight five true I think gorol is really really good and he's an auto in the legion but in an overall Eisen guard Army I don't know if he would be an auto pick for me I think that hero defense is really good against Heroes but there are some things that it doesn't protect him from so for example like magic you know he has one will which for a cheap hero that's fine he's not going to be targeted all the time but he only has one will and against shooting heric defense doesn't really protect him either you hit the on the head there with his two weaknesses he often can die from shooting if you have a knowledgeable opponent and also like most heroes in this list only one will and one fate so yeah when you look at him in the larger world of mesbg yeah maybe Valor is correct because right now the meta in general involves a lot of fight five troops which are pretty good countered him considering he has only D5 with two wounds and he doesn't get the hero defense against troops it's only against against Heroes so if he loses a fight against those kind of troops which can happen you know pretty pretty easily then he's he's in a lot of trouble Valor is probably a good spot for him why do you have Freda below the or oath maker just curious we found that typically especially when you're playing the legion she's a good profile but she's overshadowed by gorol the oath maker is a cheap might battery especially reneer who's had in uh experience with this Legion said that he found himself taking oath maker a lot more often than Frida because Freda kind of does what goral does which is hold down against big heroes but goral is just better so a little bit redundant all right so jumping into the rest of the eisar profiles to start we have sarman the white you're going for the most controversial one right off the top he should be the most awesome guy in this Army but he's not unfortunately Ely I don't rank him highly at all in fact we just talked about him in our latest podcast episode and I believe Andrew used the phrase sucks I think that that's a bit controversial I don't he's that bad for for me well I mean he's a wizard he's expensive he brings a lot of stats to the party he can do a lot there's no no question about that it's whether he's worth 180 points in in an army where you can buy a really good mid-tier hero and 12 really good Warriors for 180 points well that's like I think the biggest issue right there is that because he's so expensive and your base troops are costing like you know 10 11 points if you're going to go the uh the irai route which you want to because it's a very solid profile then you your army fills up very fast and I don't think you ever get quite like to the numbers that you want to whenever you're trying to run sarmon yeah there's probably a points value or two where he works at quite well but I'm I'm not sure where that where that is with Eisen guard to be honest I see a lot of newer players struggle when they bring him because of the reasons you guys have said also uh for a wizard that's so many points it's it's hard for a a newer player or an unexperienced player to get the most out of it so I I agree that it's not an easy profile to use but I do think that in the hands of a experienced player he can be very very good and he also gives you access to GMA that's probably the main thing that brings his stock up um but it comes down to the point where are you looking at San and GMA as two completely separate profiles or are you looking at them kind of as a single profile where GMA is kind of an option for San um so it kind of changes the game a little bit um because like I would love to take GMA in every game but like I I won't take soran if I'm trying to win yeah no that's that's fair um I think we joked about GMA being kind of like a war gear for for San you know yeah like he's he's like a much better like orcrist option you know like like I like what they tried to do with San I just I don't think it really worked out in the end so you know they they've changed his profile from the good camon um and they've removed like uh a really incredibly good rule for him uh is it lord of the aari no I think they both have lord of the Atari it's um he doesn't have Aura of command or of command yeah okay um I just think like the paner that they've given him in in this one like he should be a he should be a general that is going to buff a rank and file Army and the stuff that he has just doesn't do that right even like even the paner um good idea you know you seize priority but it's often just countered by a heroic move um so like in the end it like rarely really does anything in the game and like he's missing he's missing some key spells or like even if he counted as a banner or you know if he had blinding light or like Aura of command like all of those things would raise his stock right but he like because he's supporting a rank and file Army but just lack of all of that stuff like other than just trying to shut down an enemy hero um you know with immobilize you're gonna have a hard time even coming close to making back 180 points with this guy those are all really fair points and he's definitely not as good as the good San I agree that he definitely should have or of command I think that would that would make him very very playable and I I still do think he's playable now not as bad as what you and Andrew think I think he has his place he definitely it's hard to build the regular urai horde with him I think you either go Orcs with him to keep things a bit cheaper or you kind of take him as an ally with like a cban or two and then you you get that really strong magic because I would say that he is better than your regular like transfix ring wraith and that he has that 18inch compel and that is probably a spell that could win you some games so he's not like an auto pick by any means but it's hard for me to not put him at least in fortitude you know like he's definitely very playable for me I think you made a good point we know him as being like the the leader of the urai from the movie but I I think the Army bill that he best fits into is if you're trying to spam out an or cord he fits a lot better in that Army a because you can afford him and and be what he does actually complement the orc horde more than it would an urai army I think I would put him in the top of fortitude I think he's he's a bit more flexible than the oath maker even if he's not as much value because you really only see the oath maker when you're gonna spam out the the Wildman and it's more Niche but I'm good with having him that in this spot actually I I think at least to fortitude I think part of the reason I like thyen so much is that he is like the only thing in this list that combos really really well with Saron because of that 18inch compel and because thyen has the the mighty blow and he's mounted like he can put out the damage to like maximize the effectiveness of that command it's a juicy combo but yeah it just like we said ear it comes down to like being able to list build with him is incredibly hard to get the right balance of troops uh and heroes most of the time you're going to end up with him and maybe two other Heroes and Poss possibly GMA and then you just got to try and maximize your numbers but It's Tricky there is an argument to put him in at the maybe lower end of Valor but because of the list he's in and the options available in Eisen guard I'm I'm okay with top of fortitude I think it's it's he hovers somewhere in that area agreed he might be better if you could combine him with another spellcaster like with the immobilize kind of thing and I have seen people do that build with like the witch King I in but then that gets that gets a little crazy and soupy so you know it's interesting all right so next we have lerts oh here we go we're gonna go uh for a little bit of a tussle on lerts I think because I know Charles isn't a fan done an episode on him before and uh I remember Don messaging me afterwards telling me what he thought of my opinion hey look you know what I'll be the first admits that like lerz isn't a top tier hero there's no question about it right but you take what you can get with this Army and he's pretty much if not the best he's right up there amongst the best you can get in this Army he brings a lot with three attacks and three wounds three might strike uh yes he only has uh one will and one fate which is very common in this Army so that's that's a definite shock against him he's got defense six which most of the other Orchis don't have he has a funky Special Rule which usually you can be guaranteed that'll kick into play in one of your games and find the halflings so you can choose where you come on in any melstrom or reinforcement Mission and I think there's four of those out of the 18 so like if like us I don't know if you guys out there are playing with veto now like it's really popular here right now so with veto you can pretty much guarantee you're going to get one game out of let's say a four game tournament where that's going to come into play so it does help so you know I rate this guy fairly highly he's in every I ey Army I ever play with because I don't play with Zoran um anyway I I won't say where I'll put them though let let's hear what you guys have to say I've said it before and I'll say it again I still really like this profile he is a little expensive at 90 points but just like the base profile is really good the one will one fate isn't the greatest but you know he's only 90 points and he's got some good the actions that you want and that find the halflings rule is always great so yeah I I I I'd put him at least in a Valor I think he was definitely like I guess better by default before the dunlin release because he was like you know the hitter that you kind of wanted or needed in the Eisen guard Legion but then now that you have like gorol you can can kind of see how he's taken a lot less because yeah like his weaknesses he's he's probably not the best leader once you start going over like 600 points he's okay as your secondary hero but that's more because you're lacking like the options in Eisen guard you know for like a a hitter he's decent in Eisen guard like Valor level but if you consider like if you drop him in like let's say a Mordor or you know like a serpent horde like how how often would you be taking him really yeah it's a good point he got some Buffs now um since quest of the ring bearer so he has like the shield throw the her Challenge and and the help him a little bit in the legion and you can argue that in a standard Eisen guard Army he's the only Valor and above choice you know I think that thyden should be hero Valor but at the moment he's the only hero of Valor in Eisen guard so if you're not taking sarman the only way to Ally in Eisen guard is with lurtz and maybe that's the reason why we don't see very many yellow lists with Eisen guard because he's not like the amazing option that you will want as we'll get into it there are some really good profiles in this Army and so for 90 point hero to Ally in he just doesn't to me he doesn't bring enough being the only hero of Valor in the list gives him a few points because if you do want Ally that's the only way to do it at the same time you're not getting amazing value for 90 points so yeah I agree um I think I don't I don't think you can sort of unell his vulnerabilities because certainly he can die in one turn to a big hero charging on a on a mount so that's the reality of the situation but he is like I like him because I I like thisp type of hero and he's utility so like he comes with a shield and his defense six so he can Shield when he needs to and he also has a bow right so you know you seldom get stuck like having a turn where you can do absolutely nothing with him because like if you have nothing else to do you can you can still fire an arrow with your shoot three plus uh with a with a strength three bow so these are small things but like they're things that may may not make them a more competitive model but they make him a more enjoyable model to play with yeah now I'll also say that Charles you brought up a good point that I think because he has his Legion and you know we got a lot of flack for it in our uh ring bears and Necromancer tier list but we still like the legion even if the general um population in Middle Earth um seem to really think we're wrong about that so I think because of that um it raises the stock um a little bit for me and I would put him above sarman and below thren but whether he's in Valor or fortitude I'll leave it up to you guys I'm fighting for that Valor spot I'm with you Ian maybe maybe it's because I I just play elves too much and they have very expensive three attack Heroes but like 90 points for like that like profile I I really like it especially just like the March and strike like Don like the utility is great and then also like having being able to pick where warband shows up even though it's only one is still really useful especially if you're going to be doing builds like where you have soron or something like that in it where you don't want your big hero and your leader to be isolated like you're guaranteed to have lur show up wherever you need him to and like back up whatever you want him to so if we're going to invoke the guest rule that we had with Jacob where Don's vote counts as two uh I'm I'm thinking more top of fortitude so this might be a three to2 vote well um I saved that part because I just withdrew my vote so we we'll just do the uh the two to one we'll give it to Don inan okay yes lurs he clawed his way up to the bottom of Valor you see that's what a utility hero does I mean to the other guy's point like I I do say he is good because he has the utility but Eisen guard is like they don't have any big heroes besides like lurz but they are flush with options for like marching and striking Heroes and I think that's kind of why he gets dragged down a bit but I still think the the base profile is really solid fair enough yeah hey he's a mid-tier hero you can't you can't deny it so he's he's he's definitely not going to be Legend he's he's going to be somewhere where we've got him or in fortitude so I just want to fight for ls's stock because I like him okay next we have another captain and it is Maher love the move eight love the three attacks and if we're talking utility he definitely has his role and I see him probably arguably the most out of these erai captains um you know if you don't want to go War Rider or the dunland Cavalry which is not the best value in Eisen guard um you know the nice the one of the coolest things about Eisen guard is you can just take him in a war band of um maler Scouts that's your like Cavalry in a sense right your objective takers and for a really good price too so yeah I really rate him I don't rate him quite that high I I think we're gonna have a crowd of uh heroes in the in the fortitude uh slot in in this list and he's one of them he definitely cracks my micro War band uh where I play with six Heroes at 750 points but he's not in the top few that's for sure his rule is good he's got three attacks strength five fight five he's definitely solid um but yeah he like I don't know I I don't rate him quite as highly I don't think is Richard but I I do still rate him highly because of his profile is is good but um like I say I think there's better heroes in the list than him if he was five more points and had three might then I think I'd agree with Richard I would too unfortunately he's just got the two might and yeah I I appreciate that he doesn't have strike right like it makes it more of a unique profile compared to the other ones because you don't want all of your Heroes to be the same but it does get caught out a lot I still do really like the move eight though on a hero like this um it's very good for like rapid flanks and getting around the sides of formations but if a hero comes anywhere close to him he he gets scared very very quickly yeah he's he's a he's a movement guy right he's he's got March and he's he's got move eight and he brings a brings guys that have move eight with him but he's only got two might I would actually rather have uh him have two attacks and three might he's definitely an auto take in both of the Scout Legions because the one of the main reasons you take either of those Scout Legions is for the fast moving Scouts so I agree that he's really really good in in those two Legions but in the standard Eisen guard list you have so many options for for movement and for Mobility especially with the addition of the crean he's a combat hero without the York strike so you can't really use him to fight most heroes in that sense he's more of just like a troop muncher that can that brings the movement utility yeah I definitely don't think he's as good in in pure he's got Oran syndrome or Oran has maler syndrome yeah that's what I'm try so I I have a feeling I'm GNA be outvoted here so I'm gonna cast my vote first I like them more than lerz okay now I'm gonna mute myself hey well he is 30 points cheaper you can't deny that I mean so yeah that's I probably put him right behind sarmon if it was me I would definitely put him in fortitude I would definitely put him behind San I I'd be happy to put him like somewhere around Saron I think if he's above or below San it doesn't make that much of a big deal to me sorry Richard well for me when I when I think about which model would I take um San or mahur four times out of five mahur so I would probably put him in fortitude and ahead of San okay I guess that's not that far away from Richard's ranking right we'll see once we get all the other Heroes up there all right so onto vascu this is this is an interesting one a lot of beginner players probably overrate this profile a little bit because the the double shots on the crossbow can be really really scary with the m points but in my experience he suffers the same issues as the regular crossbowman which you know against an experienced player that knows how to kind of move um optimally against the crossbow where you you know you can't move and shoot you can kind of abuse that a little bit to prevent some uh some shooting angles and stuff like that so I mean he's nice with a three might but yeah I think he's he can be overrated a little bit sometimes he's essentially an urai Captain with some stats and Special Rule adjustments right I do like him again for the same reason I like L's utility so that he brings a lot to the table um again I'm not trying to overrate him here but the the three might the fight five strength FR five um are strong uh the crossbow is strong the expert shot is strong the heroic March is strong and even accuracy although I know you guys don't rate it highly is strong for for this guy I take him all the time uh he usually cracks my top few Heroes for that reason he's he's got great utility the the way his profiles designed can be a little bit of a trap because to get the most out of his shooting you're you're sitting back right and then if you're sitting back you're not using his strength five you're not using his three might or as well as he could be well on that point because he has the crossbow it's not like he can creep up and still make use of his crossbow while like getting in position to to make the most use out of his might it's like you got you have to leave him there once you sit him down at the front start of the game he's probably not going to move till halfway through in which case he ends up like far away from the action so it really depends on what build you're going for like if you're going to build the list with sarumon I don't think you take rashku because you're not GNA have as many Heroes you're not gonna have as much Mone you can't afford to have you know three might just sitting at the back um not doing a whole lot for you right but if you're doing a build with a bunch of smaller Heroes and he fits in quite nicely cuz he gives you a very credible shooting threat I think he goes somewhere in fortitude because not every Eisen guard player is going to build to win the shoot War but I think that's when he is a good pick is when you know your enem is coming to you and he can afford to just stand there until enemies get up close and then use them for Heroic moves and combats last Edition when he also had access to strike he was a goated profile yeah he was great now like a he's fine I'm thinking somewhere in the middle of fortitude what do you guys think I I would put him middle or maybe a little above middle but I would definitely take him more commonly than uh the captain Freda or the oath maker so for me he would either be in front of or behind San I would say about the same as San but probably a little below just because you know I like the the spiciness of what sarman brings that's fair all right next we have uglu I actually don't know what people think of him these days I don't see him talked about a lot but I think he's the best out of these Eisen guard captains and and he is a really cheap heroic strike they all have March so him having March is nothing special but having a cheap her strike in there is is good and I know I compared him to gorol earlier he's like a slightly cheaper version of gorol so I think they have like a similar role he's a a really good like mid-tier hero threat because even though he's he's really cheap and he's not considered super threatening your opponent is always going to have to consider him as a threat because he has the heric strike yeah I I agree with you here I think opposite of rashku I think a lot of newer players underrate this guy because he doesn't have the most like Gody stats like lerts but if you consider his like points value and what he brings he has all the necessary tools and he's ridiculous ly cheap he's got the three might too that Mal doesn't have so yeah I agree with you that he's probably better than he's the best out of the named urai Heroes and at low points especially like surprisingly like a good leader like 500 and under like you know if you're not taking lerts like this is your guy problem I have with this guy because I don't rate him quite as highly as you guys do but we're talking hairs here right we're splitting hairs he was very very popular when when this addition first came out because of of strike and and what Richard was saying uh about why he's a good by I think he is fairly well costed because he's essentially an urai Scout Captain but with an extra what's he got he's got an extra point of Might and Special Rule and he's got strike right so I think he belongs in an orc hor Ed Eisen guard list for his Special Rule and other than that that special rule is pretty much not going to be used but even without the Special Rule he's probably fairly accurately costed because he's also got strike I just think like like Richard said that gorol essentially bumped him out of the list for me because it's like like I'm gonna take goral every time over him for that reason I think he's definitely in fortitude but I think I'm maybe a slot or two below what what you guys think maybe okay okay I was just rereading a Special Rule and it specifically says a friendly Warrior troop so technically he could kill your own troll just be like look what I did you look what I could do y'all better pass your courage test stupid that's the ultimate Flex right there imagine you're about to win the game and you're just like okay well I'm going to just take on my own troll you know power move man power move do that at the start of the game just for intimidation win by making your opponent rage quit that's wild that is wild so I I think I'm definitely a little my opinion is a little bit different from from Don Don also rated alerts higher than I did definitely put him above alerts so he would be somewhere here even though I think he's more of a top of fortitude I do think he should be around the same level of alerts or slightly higher because personally I would take him before I take lerts you're putting value on the fact that he's he costs less but he comes with the main things that you want which which are are still the three might you know fight five strength five uh and strike so and like those are the things I think you're focusing on and it's for you know what is it 25 points less you know it's a good point it's a very good point I just don't like him as much because he's not lerts I think I'm good with him either like around lerts I think lerz is probably better than him but you know I I'll see that because L's made it up onto the the list at all so in Valor so Richard is he better or worse than LS we can put him yeah we could slot him be slightly behind I think because I think the alerts being the hero of Valor okay next we have uh the urai shaman so I'm I gotta run now you are a coward I'm going to throw quickly into our Facebook Chat the uh where I'm going to put the rest of the heroes quickly here and then I got a boogie most of them are going to be in fortitude all right yeah or below Don it was nice to meet you and talk to you briefly yeah nice to meet you too all right so you know since Ian uh has left and even though he's leaving us his uh his rankings for the rest because he's not here in person I think we his vote will just count as half a vote doesn't as much power it will only be used as a tiebreaker well I guess we can't have a tiebreaker with three but so basically we're just gonna ignore his vote okay so for the K Kai Shaman I actually don't value him very much because uh Eisen guard has quite a few better courage options so you take the shaman for Fury typically but at the at the expense of a a hero that has less might so he only has one might and he can't really fight so with Berserkers being an option in the list when you can just throw in Scatter in two or three into your list and now you also have hus curls which have bodyguard and you also have Wildman for Fearless I just don't see Shaman as being very efficient and they they don't provide the utility that Fury usually does well said I agree 100 per. and it just so much more expensive than the regular other orc Shaman and stuff like that yeah because you're paying for the extra stats well the other the other part of it too is trying to defend the orai shaman being worth his points and having a place in the Army but the the the flip side of the coin is that's 50 points you're not spending on something else so is that something else better than the shaman and the answer is yes um you can definitely find a better buy for 50 points in this list the best I would say situation to use him is in the salt upon Helms Deep legendary Legion because he gets six more slots in his War band so he can go up to 12 but if you pay 10 more points you get a Ballista yeah so uh I I don't see a reason not to put him in independent not because he's like an unusable profile but I just like I'm struggling to find a situation where he would be good well he does have a spear so that's something can trans fix on a five yeah I I don't rate him high like I would definitely either at like the highest I think I I would put him would be minor I would be fine with him and independent just because to me he just doesn't crack the list he just doesn't he just doesn't make it onto the table I mean sure he'd probably be a fun unit to play with in in some scenarios and stuff but if you were actually trying to win games would you would you take him and I don't think I would take him okay it is I just want to add in we're definitely not counting this one but Ian has submitted his rankings and he somehow says uh the shaman is a Valor you serious which you know I I don't even want to hear his argument and good thing he's not here so he's definitely wrong on this one well put him at the top of independent part of the reason why he he's down graded is just because they they nerfed Fury right so like if Fury hadn't been nerfed the way it was like may maybe he would be in minor for me yeah so the next one Kai Captain usually we put captains at fortitude and maybe we should still but definitely lower than usual because of the list that we're in like Eisen guard is literally the list of named captains with March everywhere and they're just all around better because they got better rules so like I guess you take him in assault on Helms Dee which you know has also come down in prominence due to the Nerf but aside from that like you know they don't have too much of a spot so maybe like above duning Captain I actually would put him behind because dun Ling Captain you can argue he's the only profile with March in the legion so there's a point in taking him at higher points if you want the March the only thing that irai Captain brings here is the defense seven none of the named urai captains have defense seven so if you want a more survival mid-tier hero maybe top of minor bottom of fortitude that's that's what I was thinking I I'd actually Place him exactly where Richard had him like I'd take him over the dun lending Chieftain simply because like we're talking vanilla Eisen guard here and guy this guy has fight five for five more points he's he does have one less point of Will and he's got a higher defense to you know quite honestly I I don't play with him because there's just better choices to to spend your points on because essentially all of the named heroes are you know urai mostly urai Scout captains with some sort of upgrade I will agree that he's good uh for a generic Captain I remember last Edition when every hero could strike there were some people build who were building eeng guard with just pure generic captains because they were pretty decent for uh for 65 points so I can I can see the argument that of still using them and if you're G to go with like a mass crossbow shooting force like you can arm him with a conditional crossbow like after vascu so there's some flexibility there yeah I mean truth be told if you took out all of the named erai Heroes you could still have a good army using irai captains so he's he's definitely like a good Captain profile just I don't play with them that much because like the the named heroes are just a better buy yeah next we have the urai Scout Captain this one you would realistically only see in in the two Legions right in in ug Scouts and LTA Scouts like I I don't see a reason why you would take in regular when you you you could just take the generic Captain if you had to this list has a lot of this kind of thing going on in it with their units like they're all based around a profile and then their points go up and their stats go up or their points go down and their stats go down so it's like yeah you can take this Captain for like five points less but then you get one less point of Defense you know slight changes in weapon options as well but there's a lot of that going on in in this faction if you rate you know saving Five Points and lowering your defense as as being good then maybe that would count for something but to me uh yeah he's just an urai Captain that's not quite as good yeah totally agree here so right next to him or below the dunland I put below the dunin because he he doesn't bring anything new in the legion right other than slots because at least the dunland captain brings March yep I maybe even argue him in minor because just because his role is so small in Eisen guard like when do you really see this guy like not necessarily like being bad just but just like when was the last time you saw Kai Scout Captain the only time you see him usually at least the only time I see him or actually use him is to use my urai Scout Captain model with a two-handed weapon right so then you see him occasionally yeah that's fair all right the drummer I mean you see him in Lurch Scouts yeah this one this one's a little tricky because he he's like super valuable in in lurz of Scouts and you know pretty much you don't see a lurtz of Scouts Army that doesn't have a drummer in it but just talking vanilla Eisen guard he still does what he's there for right and increases the movement of your troops the thing is we see we see Eisen guard with mixed key WS nowadays right we see Orcs in there we dunland in there so the drum only Buffs or IRS so unless you're taking like a pipe block or or Scouts I don't see it being as good as like say the orc drummer in Mordor like he's almost sort of Niche because you you kind of have to build your army around having him um like the typical Army that I play with in urai has a little bit of everything it's got dunlins It's got Orcs it's got hurai you know it's got everything and it just doesn't do well in an army like that because like you said you kind of have to have an army that's almost all urai keyword and you know if you're gonna take him you're probably also taking mahur and maxing out his warband on Marauder Scouts yeah and if if you're not gonna go like super like crazy movement buff stacks and you just need like a slight boost there's so much heroic March in this list that I don't think it's really necessary it's a nice to have option but somewhere fortitude maybe like the lower end yeah okay also having a small hero like this brings uh weaknesses in scenarios like fog of war and assassination because he is a hero uh and and he could be pretty easy to to take down so I'll I'll put him here because he has the same role as a dunland Chieftain but I see you you probably see him more imp pure than than a dunland Chie I'm good with that I think I think that's fair okay next we have shaku he has his own Legion don't forget that be a budget Ellen wait that's quite a stretch unfortunately his fight four I think really brings him down I mean he is a hero and he's on a mount and he's got strength four and three might so like that does count for something in In This Very cavalry poort hor list in that sense he's good um but yeah his profile again comparing it to the other heroes in the list he's he's just falling short I think I would put him between Frida and the erai captain yeah I mean he does bring you a mounted option if you're not taking thyen and you want a hero that can knock down and his special knife where he can deal damage back at an enemy I've seen it wound a big hero before so it's it can surprise you once in a while it's not reliable by any means but it it can it can do cool things once in a while it's just the fight for is just a little kind of underwhelming right yeah like I do play with this guy quite a bit in spite of my kind of like poor review of him but I I do like him it just because he's a mounted hero and when playing irai like the focus of your attention on your opponent is is their mounted Heroes probably why I I slightly rate vascu a little bit higher than you guys because you know shooting out a horse is is the main way you deal with that counter charging with your own Cavalry is another way that you can at least temporarily deal with with that kind of a threat but yeah his just his profile is just underwhelming I would say okay now we have the orc Captain you know sometimes I forget this profile is in Eisen guard MH first of all the reason you would take him is what uh I don't know I guess if you're playing UGL Scouts in a p lless i don't know if I would take him if you want a might battery oath maker is better and if you want a mounted hero shaku and thyen you have options so I don't know a point in taking him it it never cuts the list honestly because again you would just take Shu in like it like maybe you've already taken Shu and you're going to consider taking orc Captain but why would you do that yeah I agree an Eisen guard is just it he doesn't fit and I think that maybe pushes him in like a minor or even top of independent who knows well and we we haven't talked about it yet we talked a bit about keyword but like his his keyword doesn't it's not in sync with the army bonus yeah right so so he's losing that as well yeah it's it's an interesting profile we ranked him really high in Angar and for a good reason but even though it's the same profile it just like it doesn't bring anything into the list maybe minor then I guess if you take him it's not like you're making your list uh Terrible by any means it's just everything else above is better so yeah I'm good with Miner yeah I'm good with that spot okay now we're on on to the Warriors so we have the basic urai Warrior you guys know that there has been a recent increase in fight Five Armies the last few years and um there this used to be a really good really solid profile I found um but these days I just don't think fight four is as good as it used to be I don't think it's as amazing and and and maybe that's why I haven't played this Army as much in the last few years and I would agree with that I think a lot of people always still quote that like you know he has like the Holy Trinity of stats of the fight four strength for D6 but maybe it's power cre but all those stats are like and now the strength four is nice but then the D6 even now is not amazing there's so many d7s so many fight fives and yeah I think it's it's just literally average now especially if you take in the points cost because because I think in the competitive scene if like if it's legend or Valor tier then I think it would be Allied in a lot more and you almost never see erai Allied anywhere they're they're just not quite there but of course if you play Eisen guard as a peer list you're gon to take them so I think that's the definition of fortitude for me if you compare him with the stats of a Miranda orc you are paying a point for his courage so paying for courage three is makes makes them just inefficient when you're spamming them because they they have models that can indicate courage defense six is also not as good as it is before because we have more strength four as well more uh troops with wounding bonuses so D6 is not as solid as it used to be where more than half the armies used to be strength three so if you face urai you're like oh man I'm gonna I'm gonna have to wound them all in sixes it's not the case anymore their support option Pikes also lacks the ability to take a shield which yeah uh adds a weakness in your battle line right it's a shame that they they uh they don't improve erai with Pike because there's like it's part of the plastic kit like you you get so many of those models around and all of all they've done is make Pikes worse by penalizing taking a pike and a crossbow so a a pike crossbow armed iry you used to be amazing um and now you like never see it because they uh are minus one on their duel I think it is so it's a shame that they aren't better with Pikes but I do agree with all that you guys have said yeah the Holy Trinity of like fight for strength for defense six was last Edition this is the current edition and it's no longer the Holy Trinity where would you guys say it is on the 42 tier I think they still have have really good things going for them like your crossbow I think you would still take it if you're going to take this Army Pikes are still I would say good it's you're still having strength for support which is the only way to get it in this list so it's hard to compare with like hero sometimes but I would just say top of fortitude because you do you do see it as you know the the urai Army still quite often and it's still a very viable build if you want to go pure urai you know as andard Force yeah yeah even even the most diverse or sort of you know odd irai construction that you can come up with will still usually include some urai Warriors so you know and some you still see entire armies of of urai Warriors not that it's particularly competitive but think I think they're definitely fortitude and yeah it's hard to compare them to Warriors but they're they're in virtually like 90% of irai builds so that says something yeah yeah for sure all right now the urai Scout I think this one I would just slot below maler you usually take them with maler without like the uh movement bonuses I I don't think they're they're usually worth it and like Don said earlier they're kind of like valued similarly to the urai warrior is just like you're losing like a defense and then it's just like tra um stats for points um generally not as good as the kai Warrior but you know if you get the move eight then they're solid yeah and I believe they have Woodland creature yep that's also pretty nice and um access to the strength three bows and being able to move half when you're when you're stacking movement bonuses on them uh it can be really annoying to face yeah I I would probably still rate them in fortitude but higher in the legion but outside the legion I I think I agree where where we have them there okay now we have the Berserker so I was a little bit disappointed when the edition first came out because they nerfed berserker's defense and also the Berserker Blade isn't as good as it sounds on on paper but I do like to include some in my lists just for their High courage I think that's pretty good and and I think it's still worth it even though they are quite expensive the unfortunate drop in in defense was kind of a kick in the junk for them I still do take them also because uh again this is is a list that is almost devoid of Cavalry so when your heroes are charging they don't get Cavalry bonuses so normally the way I play is these guys are companion models to Heroes that will will help you ensure uh winning a dual role when you're about to do heroic combat so like you can heroic combat with a Berserker a hero and and maybe a spear or Pike support and almost with the plus two attacks from the Berserker you're almost guaranteed to win the duel and then you know those those two models can go into other combats so for those reasons I normally will always uh take a few of these models in my list but like you just don't see these guys spammed anymore like you like you used to because the the difference in in their stat profile is basically you know the these guys essentially have defense six until they make it into combat with the impervious to Bow fire and then once they make it into combat they die because they have defense five yeah yeah I I think I agree with everything but you know I I think maybe it's a good change you know um something that isn't crazy efficient like an elite Warrior that you can spam but you all always recommend taking a few I don't know maybe either like above or below Mal her level since you're going to probably see them sprinkled in in most Eisen guard armies for me I would probably put them just behind the warrior and ahead of mahur okay that's where I would put it but yep that sounds good to me next we have the very similar but maybe not as good feral urai h that's not a maybe yeah there's definitely no maybe there this is one of the profiles that was really good last Edition but they got severely nerfed in this Edition where if you compare the stats within with a Berserker it's there's almost no reason to take him this is a model that's definitely in need of an FAQ upgrade like Games Workshop invented this profile and then they beheaded the profile um like honestly it's one of the worst double whammy Nerfs that we've seen in the game taking a model that was a popular model and now you literally never see it on the table like you know basically they they removed a point of defense and also increased the cost if they had have only done one of those you probably still wouldn't see it definitely bottom of the list for me I got maybe like six to eight unpainted you know ready for the rules change once that who knows if it does ever take into effect then uh I'll definitely be painting those this is one of these situations where like I wish we would see uh like we're not seeing anything right now from Games Workshop sadly but I like I wish we would see a little bit more creativity in the in the FAQ and the addendums because you know we've talked about two Mo models in in this faction that are considered very poor in the shaman and and the the feral what would happen if you gave the feral a Special Rule where if it's under the influence of a fury spell like Fury works better for this model that would be greates something like that so then it's like okay that one rule makes now both of these units better and like in combination with each other so like I wish we would see more things like that from from the rules designers um maybe we will in the future that's that's a really cool idea no wonder you're the creative guy on north of the Shire I I also think since gameswork shop designed it to be like a scout version of the Berserker yeah if it was Lurch of Scouts that that would make them unique as well yep absolutely it's it's kind of missing from that list in my opinion as well yeah so does it go above or below for Shaman the very bottom the very sadly yes all right we have the Eisen guard troll next for viewers of this podcast you know how we generally feel about uh the troll profiles other than like beginners maybe bringing it to their first tournament or award like introduction games I don't see this profile at all so do you guys see any competitive viability sadly no unfortunately like basically what you get is is kind of an ordinary unit which is has just a massive base that costs 110 points so I mean if it had the base the size of cave troll maybe it would be better I mean about the only thing that I've found that these guys are decent at is shielding against Heroes yeah because yeah because that you know you're throwing out six attacks at fight seven so you know with any luck you can win fights and and stop a hero from doing anything for a turn or two but yeah generally it's it's just too many points uh for what you're getting and with the base size that big it gets swarmed all the time and you know you just never see it do much he costs more than all the heroes in the list other than sarman yeah he's like a war band of urai too so yeah I think I think the real argument is who's worse him or the motor troll so you know I think he's definitely in the dumps for me you know a lot of newer players will be drawn to him as like the monster in this list but unfortunately he's just he's not there so yeah there's some like cool tricks you might be able to do with souro blast blasting models into his combat but yeah that's that's purely for fun even if they lowered his points like if you I I haven't compared the stats for a cave troll versus this guy but you know what's a cave troll 75 I think so like I mean if you move this guy to say 90 points like would would that mean that you would take it and I don't know that you would still okay that's just sad that's that's brutal that's that says a lot yeah yeah so I actually think he goes below the pharohs because if I see an enemy with eyes in contral this I would be like yes but if I see like a few ferals you know maybe those ferals will actually do something and and he's only taking a few so maybe they're not down that that much like if you're playing an enemy that doesn't have shooting they're they're suddenly a little bit better right ferals um just like because like I I play a lot of kazad Dum right and it's it's the same thing that your your iron guards suffer from so like say you have four Iron Guard in your army well they just get shot out before you even get into combat because everyone targets them right yeah yeah I'm okay with this I I would probably just put him above the ferals just just because like he is still a monster and you know people can still walk into him he can get some dice rolls and take down a hero or hurs and stuff like that but if both of you want to below the ferals then I'm okay with that too same thing the brutal power attacks are are a good call out because you know a lucky hurl or like a well planned hurl can can win you a lot of points but yeah either spot I'm fine with either spot honestly well I'm I'm not going to defend the ferals so okay yeah so I'm okay with this we have next the dun ending Warrior I actually think that these guys are a little bit underrated I know when people think Eisen guard they think orai spam uh but uh the they still have the strength four they have the piercing strike which the urai don't have so the possibility of going up to strength five for a pretty cheap Warrior isn't bad I actually use these guys in my list all the time part of the reason is because I also play with Freda all the time and so Frida has has a special rule that keys off of these guys and allows them I believe it's roll wounds against horses which can be really handy for a strength four model so you're essentially giving yourself a 75% chance of killing a horse uh with a rroll also these guys can take bows so I I tend to include them in my in my Army as as archers I don't think they're quite as good as the irai warrior um so i' put them below if it was me I would probably put them between irai Warrior and Berserker simply because I include more of these guys in my list than I do include Berserkers and they do have some versatility in in the way that you can take take them they can take a banner you can take a two-handed axe but unfortunately you would almost never take a guy one of these guys with a two-handed axe now that you have hus girls in the list so all right so yeah so the next one we're going to be talking about is the hus girl so I think a face value they're a little bit overpriced because of their conditional fight four and compared to the regular Warrior and what they get in addition uh it's not worth like the five four or five points more I assume it's be because it's designed for the legion where they want you to pay like a like a premium for supports because it's not a list that's supposed to have a traditional battle line um in standard Eisen guard I I guess it makes sense because they don't want it to take over the role of the Pikeman because if they were only like nine points it would there would be no reason to take um Eric Pikeman so I actually think they're okay but definitely not as good in pure Eisen guard it's a weird profile honestly I I I just think there's too much going on in this profile with his stats and points and special rules and they just don't all add up to like a really cost effective unit because it's like you have you have a unit that is bodyguard but is designed to fight in the second rank yeah and you're paying a lot of points for essentially like a fight three model that under certain specific circumstances can get to fight four I think if they just made him fight four and got rid of his favor of the war chief rule he'd be a really good unit but the way it is right now it's just like I do play with them but like they don't crack my vanilla Eisen guard list I play with them in the dunland legion because you kind of need them there I'm not even sure I would imp put these guys in fortitude for me and vanilla Eisen guard maybe botom a fortitude then just because of the spot in the legion yeah that it has okay I do think they're really good in the legion although we're not talking about battle companies here they are actually like the dunland got a new battle company and these are an important unit for for battle companies because they they unlock heavy armor for your army so I think we could put it above the the war chief or the chief chief then yeah all right next we have the Wildman of dunland these guys used to be a meeme but with the new rules they they have a special Rule now with the O maker they provide a very cheap option for fearless and also to bulk up your models if you want to just take an extra War band them and hide them behind their lines they they make you even harder to break them before the fact that you can get fearless and the oath maker being much better than the shaman as an alternative to the Berserker and definitely like you're going to see a lot of them in the legion so I probably put them above the oath maker I actually don't think I rate these guys as high as you mly because I don't rate the oath maker as high as you guys do I do see the benefit of it the Fearless Etc but to me they're the same cost as an Orc okay and an orc is just got way more utility than this guy has in your army and yes you do have to pay points for it but like an orc with a spear and a shield for seven points to me is better than than a Wildman of dunland oath maker or no oath maker but I get your point their stat line is pretty bad like you're paying for the courage three and that's why they they have the defense three compared to the Orcs defense four so yeah I think orc Warriors are a better profile if you do take the or maker though you're you're definitely taking l dunin so I'm I'm with it like just behind I I think I think it's hand inand like if you're if you're taking Wildman of dunland you're taking the oath maker and if you're taking the old maker you're taking while in a dunan right it's they they're kind of like the kind of like the mahur and The Marauder Scouts is is kind of like the oath maker and the Wildman of dun relationship absolutely yeah I'm good with that okay next we have the dunland horsemen duning Horsemen so just a frame of reference a really similar profile to the war Rider and I think they have the same uh cost as well the difference is like slight bonus against horses enemy horses and they do have the courage three they do yeah War gear is a little bit different very similar profile if you do want Cav in the list it's it's like a personal preference because they're they're so similar right so I you know wherever the war Rider ends up I think that's where the ding hement ends up I definitely think um the war Rider is higher even if it's by a couple spots honestly just because of the war shenanigans that you can do it's sticking around for hero combats the dismounting for objectives I don't know I personally just compared to a regular horse I tend to favor the war Riders quite a bit more even if the stat lines are similar so I mean I think this Cavalry profile is fine but we'll get to the war Rider later and and but I I rate them quite a bit more yeah I I'm right in there with with what you you guys have said and uh I agree with Richard and that like I I think that the war riter sort of Pips this guy to the post just barely simply because the war can always stick around right and it's still a strength four model so you know they're very close but yeah I I think I think for me the war Rider just bumps them out and like I normally in vanilla Eisen guard I'm using War Riders and in the Legion of course you're using these models here you put them Charles I was thinking maybe the closer to the bottom of uh fortitude but yeah I'm okay with that I think I'm okay maybe like here here yeah definitely better than the hus girls Yeah that poor dunan Chieftain just keeps getting pushed further and further down the ladder yeah yeah I mean to be fair outside of the Legion you're probably not taking him very often he he looks so much better at the beginning of the video when there was only a couple for yeah he was he was looking strong yeah I guess the trend we're seeing is that Eisen guard has a lot of playable models are not necessarily optimized so they have a lot of decent choices right yeah it's just like I said earlier on we're we're going to be crowding out the fortitude slot here with this faction we have the crean next this one is not fortitude that's for sure I think this one is probably the best model in the list um you know you can argue that GMA has better function but you know having to gu Arman as well is a huge hurdle Caine you just throw in you know and and when you do Ally in Eisen guard in those rare occasions you know you're going to be throwing one or two carban in there at least yeah yeah I believe it's the cheapest fly in the game ridiculous the introduction of this one unit made Eisen guard as a faction more competitive it gave them something they they didn't have and that was you know okay you can make an argument they had Mobility with you know Marauder Scouts and War Riders Etc but like th this is a model that can win games yeah dude you can threaten enemy spear supports you can grab objectives they can tank as well because of their multiple wounds their extra rule against shooting and that arguably is like makes them a better objective takers than the more expensive flyer models like the bat swarm being able to shoot at it because that's one of the biggest weaknesses of the bat swarm they're even infantry so they can you know they can dig up uh your your heirloom or whatever like that kind of thing so yeah if you want to be a little cheesier they can also carry the demolition charge so next we have the orc Warrior so we talked a little bit about it when we were going over the Wildman they're just a generally a really solid profile now in Eisen guard maybe not um since since there's they don't have as much of a Synergy especially like get with the army bonus they they don't have the Eisen guard uh keyword so you know they're a solid profile um sometimes you'll want to take some to spam out numbers maybe you don't want to P pay so many points for a pike or hus girl then you take some orc Spearman for cheap support so there there is a role in here what do you guys think I personally think that the orc profile is better in a vacuum than the irai warrior but like you said in this particular list the the Army bonuses like the drum and like certain synergies probably work a little bit better with the irai Warriors so I would probably slot them a little below I know I know Dawn you play more with the irai warrior like lists but I think when I play Eisen guard I you know I tend to lean towards more the Orcs And the numbers so I Pro probably put them right behind the irai warrior here I think an orc with a spear and a shield has a real place in in this list and it actually synergizes very well with an urai warrior with shield and it does the same job as an urai warrior with Pike but is actually better because it's it's cheaper and it has a shield so when your front line disintegrates you can still like shield with your orc with a spear and a shield so for SE seven points like he definitely has a spot in this list but it's again it's kind of Niche yeah agreed okay um War Rider so we we talked a little bit about it when we were going over the d Ling Horsemen so it seems like the consensus that it's slightly better than the horse now would you guys just put him right above it or several slots up I think personally it he's probably higher just because he has the flexibility to go with like an Eisen guard irk spam or an orc spam like you're gonna take take the war Rider most lists to get like a bit more flexibility like I know the cban is good but um they they are still a little bit pricier and Cav in a way is anti- Cav as well you know Don has talked about the weakness of ising guard being Cavalry or more specifically probably mounted Heroes so or Riders nullify that a little bit more so probably put it around like where the Berserker is maybe even a little higher prec crane you would always see you know three to five War riders in in a competitive AR Eisen guard list and even after Cain you still see a few of them in the list and like I still always always use them just for all the reasons that we've talked about um and you don't really have a lot of other choices for cavalary so you know it's kind of this or the the dunland in Cavalry model sounds like I'm worth with Richard on this up in this area where you've got them now maybe above the dun maybe even above the orc coire because you see them in multiple builds and um I don't know I think that's like definitely the top of fortitude for me plus if you playing Wolves of Eisen guard there you go okay so we have our first Siege weapon we have the demolition team we know that this has been nerfed uh in the legion but um you do still see it well you do still see it in the legion but outside the legion occasionally you would still see the bomb definitely a very scary and fun option it's is always a weird one to rank because it's like a auto take in the legion but then outside Legion it's kind of a meme it doesn't help that the the legion is no longer at like the top tier anymore I think pre-nerf I would probably put it in like high Valor but I think post Nerf probably somewhere in the upper half of fortitude yeah it's not even just that the bomb itself was nerfed but also because the legion is a lot less popular than it used to be you're you're going to just see this profile less overall yeah and I I got to confess that this is probably the model in this list that I have the least experience with I have played with it but on rare occasion and like I tend to play mostly vanilla urai um or Eisen guard rather and like I don't I don't like this model simply because I'm old and I struggle to remember complicated rules so any model that has more than a page of rul rules attached to it I generally try to avoid it so this model has a page of rules attached to it with numerous FAQ adjustments and like I just don't want to be bothered with that when I'm playing and I like I know in in vanilla Eisen guard this is not exceptionally effective so yeah again I I would rather just take stuff that is going to be as effective or more effective and easier to understand and play with some people like to keep it simple so this profile is really good in the legion because you don't have access to heroic strike so it threatens big heroes it can delete them off the board instantly in vanilla Eisen guard you have heror strike you have tools to deal with big heroes so it's almost like one of your one of the options in your toolkit but you can play against heroes in so many other ways you can counter Heroes and with other other Heroes that you have in the list so I don't really see it as like a necessary profile at all so I'm actually thinking more like bottom of fortitude even high minor I actually don't think that it's a very easy uh profile to use but what did you say Richard where did you have it midd old fortitude just because I think Assan hommes deep is probably still more competitive than the dunlin legion and I think most assault lists will still take this so I would just rank it probably slightly above Mo most of the dunlin profiles we have at the Bott aom of fortitude hey let's see what does Ian have to say about this one he only talked about the the heroes oh Ian we're so disappointed what about like right here I know I know Don likes Frida so maybe let's put it below Freda yeah there we go above shark put Freda actually more that [Laughter] way okay uh the second Siege weon you have is the assault Ballista H another Siege weapon that was nerfed in the legion multiple times uh it now has a minimum range and the scatter and the roll is now only rolls of one so a lot less efficient than it used to be I do think that is still good in pure and would occasionally take one what do you guys think when you can get shooting from other places like rasu and crossbow spam and stuff like that well it's just a cheap um Siege weapon and you can't discount that I mean I personally hate playing with and against Siege weapons in mesbg but like as an option I can't deny that it's good you know and like even with a Nerf I don't think assault is bad I think it still has a place in the tournament scene and it's because of this model it's not because of the bomb it's not because of the super jacked leader orai Captain but it's it's because of this model and there's the reason why I took so many Nerfs so I think this one has to be like Valor for Mee Nerf it was Legend easily yeah oh yeah yeah I'm with like I agree with your description 100% Richard and this and and that like I think it's good because of its point value I agree I can't stand Siege weapons either playing with them or against them in in what's supposed to be a skirmish game but you know they're here so we got to deal with it to me the this weapon which I do play with the odd time its Effectiveness is in in its influence on your opponent rather than the actual damage it does so in my experience it's the same with this as with the dwarf ballista both are cheap both are not fantastic Siege weapons but both are direct fire weapons and essentially uh your opponents get afraid of them and you can lock out parts of the board with this it probably won't make back its point value in the game but you can like shut down parts of the board with it which is very effective and handy yeah oh 100% but I would push back a little bit in the case of the Legion I think it does often make up your points you know when you come up against like a a smaller hero with like one or Z zero fate like a Bor of Gondor or goar you know I've seen too many times where uh a hero like that which is easily often more worth more than the ballista or two they go down especially with like the extra might point on on the ballista and yeah it's it can definitely win you games in that sense well it's got it does have a shoot four right so with the shoot four and and one point of Might available you can you can definitely get lucky with with a shot and hit a big Target I just never have but it is possible I suppose for me I think I'm sitting around the middle of Valor possibly higher end of Valor probably be above thed for me Don if you're okay with that I'm okay with it I like again it's one of the models in the list that I don't play with a lot simply because I don't like Siege engines but I can't deny that it's a good unit you're an honorable man I respect that so there's actually one profile that we we we miss and I just realized while we were tearing it is snaga the or Captain that we got Warren Rohan so usually you would see him in ug lug Scouts but he is technically in the Eisen guard Army list and uh yeah so he's like a three three might or Captain at 50 points and what he does is he has a special rule where he can choose to he can choose to not take part in a heroic move during like a with me and he can choose to move after I know I know when he first came out a lot of like the community was like Theory crafting what can we do with this crazy rule like I'll admit it's a really fun Rule and like I guess you can think of uses for it but the thing is that I think people figured out that the The Fringe uses aren't even that good so like you can you can try very hard to pull pull something off but it's not going to be hugely beneficial so I think maybe so I I don't have his profile in front of me is he is he fight for defense four D5 fight four D5 uh the only act heroic action he has is challenge so very limited and he has a special rule where he can only lead Orcs so in a pure Eisen guard list that really limits what you can do so three might for points that's good that's almost the level of the oath maker um but other than bringing in might if you don't use his uh cunning mind Special Rule where you could delay your HK move um he doesn't really offer much else on top of that so is he better or worse than shaku because he's also an orc shaku can be mounted and so I would has heroic strike too does he not no he has March okay well that makes him better than a regular Captain I I think snaga without the March is lower I I would probably say like even bottom of Miner because I probably take a regular orc captain in front of him I agree with that bottom of minor I'm good with that okay well this has been our Eisen guard tier list and once again thank you to Don for coming on to the show uh to help us one of his favorite armies in the game thanks for having me on guys appreciate it yeah anytime thank you all for watching and look forward to the next episode of into the West podcast

Channel: Into the West

Views: 4,078

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Id: DjkjqzpfJww

Length: 91min 33sec (5493 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 04 2024