Is There Life After Death? Q&A session #1

here we are yes here we are these questions that I have in my hand have been submitted from the folks here they are in no particular order I have not organized them in any way and the only rule I want to mention here is that we have more questions than we have time to address them and you know you guys have done League in your conferences before and characteristically what happens is we'll ask the question and everybody on the panel has to chime in on it what they do in Philadelphia the PC RT is that each one teach one you know each guy gets one question now some of these are addressed to - some to one and some unspecified so just in order to to expedite this if for example I give a question to Mike then we'll let it go at that unless there is a profound pressing desire to add something to it okay can I follow up on what you just said can you follow all right I'm sure you can but you may not alright by the way just so happens that the first question I have in my hand is addressed to you dr. Horton the statement was made quote we are not an extension of Jesus Christ but a witness of his resurrection how does this fit in with the church's being his body how does it fit in with my hands doing Christ's work I may add another Clause to this we know that Rome sees the church as the continuing incarnation even to the point of quote filling up what that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ all of Colossians but this whole business of the church has been the continuing incarnation is that a necessary consequence of the metaphor the New Testament uses of the church as the body of Christ yeah no I don't think it is and I think we're that's why I sort of I mentioned that because we keep wanting to fill up this gap because it's not very triumphal istic you know it's not very it's weak that our Savior is gone the Holy Spirit is at work but it really just some guy standing up and and proclaiming Christ from the Scriptures and this this weak practice over here of baptism and the Lord's Supper and how am i as submit to two elders as I would submit to Christ this is not very glorious this kingdom isn't very glorious and so the church tries to make up for all of that by creating glorious things so now you hear it even in evangelical circles today all over the place you hear it said that the church is the ongoing incarnation as you say this has a history not in Protestantism but in Roman Catholicism and what I think we have to to say at that point is that Jesus cry I I can't be incarnated there was one incarnation I can't do the Gospel he fulfilled all righteousness and bore my sins and was raised for my justification that is the gospel and so we have to distinguish very sharply between Jesus Christ his person work and the church or the individual believer in our person and work we always are the redeemed not the Redeemer and our work is never redeeming anything but a witness to the redemption that has taken place in Christ and yet Paul can call Timothy a co-worker in in the work of God not because he is doing what Christ did but because he is proclaiming Christ and in that way Christ's work right now not his work than in there but his work right now is being carried out by that spirit empowered ministry Sark's and Soma are being confused here when it comes to the body of Christ the flesh and the spirit we are not made one flesh with Christ we are made one with Christ by the spirit and that means he is the first fruits of the harvest the head of the body the firstborn from the dead all of these analogies the vine and the branches offer a clear distinction between the source and that which is bound to it and they're all analogies of an organic and covenantal relationship but certainly not of any kind of fusion of the believer or the church with Christ thank you speak to us pleas of cremation and/or any relevance to the imitation of Christ in in his resurrection I'll throw that one at you and I will I will do that it tomorrow when I when I tackle 2 Corinthians 5 alright I lines I'll endeavor to ends I will attempt to answer it there how's that what do you think okay that's fun we don't want to steal your thunder - no I'm going no no I've already been accused of doing that in fact no well it there's another I could answer another week I don't know the answer to that question but I might know it by tomorrow what if any present day significance does the resurrection have to the people of Israel it was mentioned in acts 1:6 with a question Lord were you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel how should we witness to Jews should we say yes the promises will be fulfilled to Israel the kingdom will be restored or no all the promises have been transferred to the church you know we hear this idea that in reformed theology we have a replacement doctrine that the church has replaced Israel and that all of the Old Testament prophecies and new that are specifically related to Israel have their fulfillment solely in the church Mike do you want to deal with that or do you want to wait till tomorrow I think you can only do that once or twice and then people start catching on I well yeah there there's a different difference in the house on in reform circles even over whether there is still an element of as yet unfulfilled prophecy with respect to not the nation of Israel that's over but ethnic Israel and I think that's a live option live discussion we ought to have I think Romans 9 through 11 I've done a flip on that myself so where did you flip to flipped from there is there it depends on what you emphasize there is now at this present time our remnant according to grace but if it is by grace it is no longer by works the elect being saved right now includes Paul and Paul saying this is how all Israel will be saved but then later he says the boy if the breaking off of the branches of Gentiles to make room for Jews sorry of Jews to make room for Gentiles was great how much greater will it be when he grafts back all the Jewish vines thus all Israel will be saved and so it it I think a lot of it depends on on where you you know which which you emphasize but even there most of the things that a lot of people are concerned about most passages relevant passages here don't concern Romans 9 through 11 but other issues like a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and and so forth when we go down that road it seems to me it's like saying you know rewind the movie you know it is hit the climax and now we want to go back to the to the middle of the movie I don't look at it as if the church the largely Gentile Church replaces Israel rather Israel remains the vine and branches are broken off to make room for us in the tree of Israel it's not replacement it's the fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham and that's the point that Paul Labor's okay well alistair asked you which way you flipped from what to what what you used to believe and what do you believe that that Paul statement that at this present time there's a remnant according to election means there is no future time when God will work with ethnic Israel all everything is just fulfilled in in the church was that your old view or your new one that was my old view okay but now you believe there is a future I don't know II think Israel I I'm on the line but I tend toward vos Ritter boss kind of convinced much Hodge yeah that it's a I there is reason for hope to look forward to a future outpouring of the spirit on the Jewish people where it the Gentiles will thank them weeping in tears that we got to get in on their coattails okay let me just ask where are you on that well actually that's pretty similar I I wish I I wish I had my little book with me because in Graham Goldsworthy spook gospel centered hermeneutics where he he tackles the sort of outlandish aspects of Zionism he actually distinguishes he makes a similar distinction to the one that you're making now and and I don't I don't have it well enough in my mind to articulate it but familiar tomorrow I there's a there's a good there's a good chance that tomorrow I could cover this haha but sort of this discards the reformed Presbyterians that have influenced me have influenced me both in terms of an understanding of God's historical redemptive purpose from all the way through the Bible have told me that the worst page in the Bible is the blank page in between Malachi and Matthew and therefore if you start is so you've got to be careful of that but also they they looked to a significant turning of Jewish people to faith in Jesus Christ before the second advent and that I that I have been happy to hold to and to affirm but not the not the other stuff that is the kind of stuff that you're referencing now as well it is it the idea of was bigger the thing is that was asked in that question and I was asked it is two weeks ago in Modesto California first question in a Q&A like this was what is replacement theology and do you hold to it and this sort of categorical way in which it is addressed makes it makes it difficult to have nuances because they think that you're trying to jump you know right both horses at the one time but I think that that that there is a sense in which the very ambiguity of it is an ambiguity that we're forced to by the Scriptures themselves right and it is a complicated thing and but people get all exercise about it but this is one of the classical distinctions between reformed theology and dispensations and dispensationalism has a tremendously large following particularly with respect to eschatology and they look to the future of a two-fold agenda God has one plan for Israel another plan for the Gentiles whereas classical reformed theology says no there's one plan that includes both alright here's this one how did the Old Testament period Jews Jewish understanding of see regarding substitutionary atonement differ from a christian understanding of that prophecy fulfilled in Christ how did the Jews believe sin would ultimately be paid for now don't you think it's time for Alistair to address what do you think well Wow you know yeah well you know well as Rita Moss Wow run the tape um when a Jewish father in the old testament came home and his children asked him what we're doing and he said that I went to the temple and to make a sacrifice for sin and his son said do you believe that your sins were forgiven and he said yes and the son said why do you believe your sins were forgiven and he said because God promised that my sins would be forgiven on the strength of this you fast forward to contemporary times and the the dialogue would be the exact same dialogue the intersecting few feature in it is simply as we know that they looked forward to something which even the prophets themselves as it says in first Peter that even even the even angels desire to look into these things in the prophets stood on their tiptoes trying to figure out what would be the end of the thing that they were identifying whether is in Isaiah 53 or whatever else it is but in simple sunday-school terms the guy in the Old Testament was was was convinced of the acceptability of the sacrifice on the strength of prospectively in terms of the ultimate fulfillment of type and anti-type and we then I have this have this exact same conviction not looking forward but looking back but is it all is centered is centered in the the work of the atonement so they're saved in prospect of it and and we are saved in reflecting on it so the difference is the Old Testament people were looking forward we're looking back essentially alright and so Michael let me ask you to drink were the Jewish people in the Old Testament saved the same way we are saved or were salvation a different economy then no it's always been in fact it's interesting when when Paul is saying we're saved by grace not by works he is contrasting a heavenly Jerusalem with an earthly Jerusalem and law-keeping as the terms for action note verses grace alone through faith alone for membership in the body of Christ but he but always contrasts not only the gospel of the New Covenant with the Old Covenant he contrasts but especially in Galatians the the Mosaic law with the Abrahamic promise so it's not Old Testament versus New Testament it really is the terms of Israel's remaining in the land by its obedience to the law distinct from how individuals were saved now what makes all the Dallas errs point is is there's a great example for that in John Levinson's book Sinai and Zion Levinson brilliant Jewish scholar Harvard he says look here's what hap that goes in and out of here here's what happened the you have the temple and so you would atone for your sins through the temple ritual and then you know of course you had other works that you had to do but at least your sins could be forgiven then it was up to you to sort of keep it and then what happened in 70 AD was the temple was destroyed and the rabbi's decided that now repentance and renewed dedication to the law will count in the place of the sacrifices in the temple and every man's own table and in his house will become his altar and he says the difference with the Christians is Christians thought that Jesus was the temple and that his sacrifice was the once and for all sacrifice and he more beautifully than then a lot of Christian theologians tells us what the gospel is and says at the end of the day however the voice of Mount Sinai is always louder for us than the voice of Zion but let me ask you this specifically what was the basis of Abraham's salvation how was Abraham justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone he's exhibit a yeah and it says that he's exhibit a so that fundamentally it's the same salvation yep okay all right now let's go to the next one dr. Beck you quoted Karl Barton ah yes I did she did was Karl Bart correct when he wrote that Christ was the elected man and that all people are quote in Christ well I haven't I haven't read part enough to know that but now if that's what he said no he was wrong on which part all of it no the first part of Christ being the elect the elect man he was right but the universalism that he attached to it he was wrong you know he denied being a universal I know he did but he was a universal despite all of the Lyle's he would say that gods says yes and we still have the capacity to say no right and even gods yes triumphs over our no over our No yeah so that sounds like universalism to me yeah and you can see how he had a huge influence on a guy like Willie Barkley and how Barkley tried to straddle that same fence in his in his commentaries and then is even in his preaching and Scotland he he just at the end of the day though he he wasn't he was a Universalist I mean he he tried to have it both ways Bart called this is called qualified SuperLab Serena's yeah could you please expand on what the federal vision is it's tearing up our church no Mike I'm not even gonna do that tomorrow that's you up to you bye ha ha what are you gonna answer any of these absolutely only if you guys can't well federal vision is let's see it sort of summarize it there in in many respects first of all I think it is an overreaction against a kind of what's what they perceive as a Baptist ik tendency to separate the sacraments as signs from the reality signified so that they're only sort of symbols that sort of thing but why like a lot of reactions it has led to something very close if not actually a baptismal regeneration and therefore everyone who is in the Covenant outwardly is in the covenant inwardly and reformed theology is always distinguished carefully between whether it's the old covenant not all who are descendants of Israel are Israel and so we bring our children into the into the Covenant they are the children of believers but you have Esau and Esau was not regenerate and then he lost his salvation you know he he was never regenerate and uh excuse me how could he saw lose something didn't yeah yeah he had a he gave up his birthright he didn't give up regeneration you saying it came out wrong oh did ya did I what did I say just the way you said that's why you responded that all thought you were affirming that that it was something he had that he lost so no it wasn't that right that's how federal Asian folks us where I fit in you know just making sure everything's nice and steady yeah the equilibrium so if you go to Hebrews if you go to Hebrews a a six for example you know here you have people following falling away well what are they falling away from well they've been once been enlightened that you know a lot of interpreters take that to mean baptism because that's how enlightened was used in the ancient church taste in the heavenly gift made a partaker of the Holy Spirit all of these things happen in the sphere of the Covenant community but it says like a dry ground drinking in the rain often it just doesn't bear fruit although it has the rain descending on it often it doesn't bear fruit and it's it's cast out but we are confident of better things in your case brothers things that accompany salvation so what this means is you have a group of people here who are not saved and yet all of these things can be said of them they taste the heavenly gift they're made partakers of the Holy Spirit they taste the powers of the age to come and the goodness of the word of God and yet they fall away and so distinguishing between the external being being externally related to the Covenant and internally related to the Covenant is that's a distinction federal vision doesn't usually accept but the heart of the problem is I'm sort of getting going from the outer rim of the issues to the heart is justification and really redefining justification and particularly faith as not as the Westminster Confession says arresting and relying on Christ but rather as obedient of course we believe the faith that justifies is obedient but it is not justifying in the act of of obedience or obedient in the act of justification it is a resting and receiving in that act of justification it is just arresting and receiving not not everybody who buys into so-called federal vision agrees with everybody else it's not monolithic in that sense but there is a tendency to reject the classic distinction and Agustin made between the visible and invisible church that if you're in the visible Church through the sacraments and in the covenant you are a member of the invisible church now if you would say to them does that mean all you have to do to be saved it's a receives the back the sacraments they don't like that either because they'll say no you can be in the visible Church and in the invisible church but you can fall out of it so they kind of stab themselves one way or the other in it but it's created quite a controversy within a small reformed community well one of one of the one of the seminaries as you would say seminary over here but Oak Hill Theological College the Anglican school in in London has been heavily hit by this because one of the main proponents was one of the professors there at least in the United Kingdom context yeah and it's and it's had a huge impact on a lot of on a lot of young men who once again admired him as a man and and and the cult of personality kicks in very quickly to that stuff well you know lots of times federal vision is equated with the new perspective on Paul right they're not the same but their reason why the confusion exists is because there's such a harmony right in so many of the viewpoints involved in it the Presbyterian Church in America PCA had a study commissioned to examine both the new perspective on Paul and justification and federal vision and came to the conclusion that both were out of sync with the classic standards of Reformed faith and subsequently many of those who were involved in that movement left the PCA but let's go on if we can in the Lord's Prayer we position quote give us this day our daily bread I've always heard about our daily needs like food clothing and job and to be grateful but in light of Jesus telling us not to worry about food and clothing but be like the birds of the air and the flowers of the field our Father will take care of us so the question is should we be praying for the Holy Spirit as Jesus says in Luke chapter 11 to seek the gift of the Holy Spirit and the other gifts like the faith I need for today and the hope I need to see me through the day the love I need to have to deal with the people around me and the people I need in my life to minister to me Aleister I'm sure all that other stuff is things we should be praying about but I don't think that that takes takes anything away from the total simplicity that it is expressed in that particular phrase it isn't isn't it is in part a reminder to as an of the fact that he is the one who gives us our daily bread and there is a suppling there is a suppliant element to it there is a there's a there's a rightful sense of acknowledgment that that we are in need of this part of the problem is that we are able to go up and down you know the the Heinen's or whatever your grocery stories and get 47 different kinds of bread but people who are actually praying this prayer in what we refer to as third world countries are real clear about the absolute validity reality necessity of the prayer that if God does not supply then getting it from anywhere and so they know exactly what they're praying about the fact that that the fact that Jesus says don't worry about it and he's the one who came up with a prayer that ought to be the answer to that question and in other words you're supposed to pray this when you pray say give us the day our daily bread and by the way don't worry about all these things which face Philippians 4 in the Living Bible don't worry about anything instead pray about everything tell God your needs and don't forget to thank him for his answers as Kenneth Taylor's paraphrase and I think that's the answer there should we should there be subsumed under that request the acknowledgement of all these other things well maybe but but that that's really not germane to the discussion I don't think I think it is exactly as Jesus said it you go over that money okay how are we to have both a compassion and yet truthful interaction with those who have lost loved ones who seem to have no interest in Jesus and with the bereaved person who yearns only to be with their departed relatives for all eternity I've just come from a funeral for an adult daughter whose father said my only consolation is that she is now with and you mentioned relatives and friends by name and only a very few who were believers how do we interact at the graveside with those in that circumstance well the naughty part of me says I could just concur with that you know she's now with James and Billy and Ronald yeah you know and then I get my car and close the door yeah and say yeah that's the that's the tragedy of the thing because they they were no closer to the kingdom of heaven than this girl I mean that but what I think in there's in the sinful privacy of my own heart and what I say in pastoral response is two different things the thing that I've endeavored to do in preaching these funerals as well is I've determined that I am I am never going to gild the lily I am I am never going to come close to appearing somehow or another to have you know a theology for one department and another one you know to be you know in in in private I'm really clear and in public am and almost as bad as Carl Bart you know so my approach to it is is to affirm to affirm for the person left behind the availability of and the the character of God in relationship to them and then to allow silences to speak so that I would be able the things that I can affirm I want to affirm wholeheartedly this is this is the god to whom we turn is a God who's too wise to make mistakes and he's a God too kind ever to be cruel we know these things about God and they're for you I know you're sad I know you I know you're overwhelmed let me tell you about this God let me give you a portion of scripture to which you can turn I can say that with absolute certainty as soon as they want to take me into the realm of of you know the other side of it I I don't have to we don't have to articulate for them any particular views in relationship to their loved ones and and it's not a cop-out to say the Lord knows them that are his but it does go on to say let let them that name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity and the person is going to have to say to themselves okay well I don't know if they did depart from iniquity and then I don't want to hold out false hopes to anyone but I have tried always I never when I do funerals for for unbelieving people I'll sometimes say now you folks knew Bill very very well and you will know whether these were his affirmations or not and I knew Bill and I knew that he would didn't like baloney you know and he didn't like he didn't like any kind of you know used car salesman stuff and so I'm not going to give that to you today but let me tell you what this says and and and I leave it there I think though that part of it in that experience of bereavement apart from the theology of it all is that we can as human beings enter into the doubt to some degree into the heartache and into the laws and often our eyes our body language our deportment will convey more that is you that is useful in the immediacy of the situation than any of our verbage and sometimes I've had to wait a long time for an opportunity to and I can tell you a classic illustration of it actually as I think about it now but a little a little boy who died at 11 months in in Scotland his his father was a scientist the National engineering laboratory he was married to a Christian lady the Christian lady and that non-christian man had three girls the mother and the three girls came to our church this man was an agnostic at least and fairly vociferous and when that I prayed for that little boy who was born with his heart upside down you know the circulatory system was messed up and I prayed you know God you got to save this kid because otherwise there's no way this this guy doesn't like you to start with and if this boy goes down he's a goner for the kingdom you know and and I I had to carry that little coffin into the gravest you may have done and lay it down and it was it was subsequent to that that this guy Graham actually came to trust in Christ listening to a sermon on the phrase he leads me in the paths of righteousness for his namesake and it was actually out of the out of the loss of this little guy that he he came to trust in Christ but it wasn't it wasn't because of a very well framed theological argument at the time of his bereavement there's the time for hugs and tears you weep with those who weep yeah sorry I she could have said a lot quite quickly you know the we we do have in this country that the prevailing doctrine of justification is justification by death all you have to do to die is ever to go to heaven is to die because all of a sudden everybody's a saint at the funeral home and they all go to heaven that's where we are but the elephant into the room is hell and the church almost never says anything in our day about how and two weeks ago I had an opportunity to be with a fella who I knew 15-20 years ago knew was a pagan he made no pretense of being a Christian he showed up at st. Andrews about a year ago sat in the back row and every Sunday that he's been in Orlando since then he's been in that back row in church and I I didn't know why so I asked him I said what made you come to the church and he was kind of embarrassed to tell me he said RCI I guess this isn't the right thing but he said I read a book or heard a tape called 15 days in Hell or something like 40 days now or so many days now that this fellow had gone through a near-death experience and instead of saying the the light at the end of the that so many people talk about he spent whatever 40 minutes or whatever in hell and it was far worse than anything he could ever imagine and then he was resuscitated and so he's devoted himself he became a Christian and he's devoted himself to giving testimony to that taste of Hell that he had in that near-death experience and this fellow in my church said he listened to the guys tape there's testimony and he said he couldn't get it out of his mind he said RC he said I knew I was going to hell and I did not want to and I knew that my only hope was in Jesus and it's like the old scare theology and he said God scared me back to church he said because now I know my only hope and haven't life and death is in Christ you know but we forget that Jesus spoke more about Hell than he did about heaven and I think there's a reason for that I don't think we would take it from anybody else but when our Lord talks about it we have to listen and we have two things people don't believe in Hell and they don't believe in a Last Judgment they really think they're going to get a free pass at the end of their life and yet Jesus again and again and again and again in his teaching talks about every idle word every thought going to be brought into the judgment somehow we've got to get that message out there without being harsh or cruel or whatever should my husband and I leave the church that we attend yes he was you know that's not a joke really I get that question I'm sure you get it all the time yeah I do and you know every time I hear that question and have them explain why they're asking it the answer is obvious yeah I don't have to hear the rest of all it's finally yes till we get it right or you got it right yeah I'm not going to get into that because I don't want to get into this one I've accepted if you're not in a church that is committed to the gospel and to the sacraments and to true government and discipline you can say to yourself I'm going to stay and be a missionary in this church that is no longer a church this church that has become a either de jour a-- or de-facto apostate because i want to be a witness where i am i just ask people to think about it you're at Mount Carmel and you see the contest between Elijah and the prophets of Vail and at the end of the day you say well you know that was pretty convincing thing that Elijah did there but I'm going to stay in and and they called it bill I want to be a witness where I am I'm going to be a missionary to bail I mean to tell it asked that question is to answer it really I tell people the care of your soul and of your spouse's soul and of your children is so important that you need to be in a place where you are having the means of grace at your disposal all the time I don't advocate hopping from church to church over frivolous matters but if it's a question of gospel or no gospel it's really a no-brainer you've got to go forget about love lines forget about where your friends go where your family go get your family in a church that feeds you the truth of God so you know I am Anjali well you wouldn't you wouldn't be in favor than of the of the bailout I haven't seen the connection yet but an anti-police legend no yeah it's good yeah well it's just the BA al out the bail out as opposed to the bail out hey stay with me folks come on it's quarter to nine in the evening for me I don't know what your Excuse is wait wait wait there's more yeah yeah why would our current worship service be patterned after a covenant renewal ceremony when it was something that only happens a couple of times in the Old Testament now let me try to define the question okay any Old Testament it was a regular thing more than a couple times that after God would enter into a covenant with his people and they would swear their oath of allegiance and receive the stipulations and the promises from time to time God would call a solemn assembly and remind them of the original terms of the Covenant and ask them to swear their allegiance once more the most notable example is the Covenant we know what Shechem Joshua 24 where the people now are brought together and say choose you this day whom you will serve if the Lord is God serve him if he's BHEL serve him and you know what Joshua said as for me in my house we will serve the war that's connected also to dynastic succession like at the end of Joseph Moses life he binds the people's loyalty over to Joshua and that's part of the framework of that and that covenant renewal I mean I'm sure that the term covenant renewal is not all that familiar with you is it not something you hear all the time at the heart of this question is what should our worship in any way be now I'm going to say before I throw this at you Mike a hundred years ago when the cyclopædia Christianity first came out I think this before I ever wrote a single book highway that was a long time ago a hundred years ago I did some translating work for the encyclopedia of Christianity and also some essays and one of them that I wrote I wrote on a position that I really had never heard other people talk about but I suggested and in one sense the celebration of the Lord's Supper was a covenant renewal ceremony as well as a dynastic succession thing because Jesus turned us over to the Holy Ghost and when he instituted the Lord's Supper he did it in covenant a language he changed the liturgy of the Old Testament Passover and he says now this is the Covenant in my blood which is shed for the remission of your sins and as oft as you eat of the bread and drink of the copy show forth my death until I come and so it's what seemed to me that Jesus in the upper room Institute's the New Covenant with this ceremony and that every time we come to the Lord's table were involved in covenant renewal were reminded of the foundation of the new covenant in his death and resurrection now what do you think of that huh yeah absolutely it's it's crucial to ask which covenant is being renewed and/or reaffirmed could we could also say reaffirmed for instance and Jewish scholars point this out that in ancient Near Eastern treaties there was a suzerainty type of treaty where the Great King would liberate you as a as a fiefdom and you would belong to him and in those treaties the emperor didn't make any promises it wasn't a covenant between you it's not like a contract you guys sat down and negotiated the terms the the sovereign gave the terms and said you either keep them or you're out and a royal grant was a you know a gift of something usually because of services rendered so like a knighthood like the one you got a knighthood where you get in perpetuity for you and your children something because of something you accomplished well that in Genesis 15 to be really quick about it you have that wonderful ceremony where at Abraham's asleep most of the great leaps forward in redemptive history happened when the patriarchs are put to sleep and Abram is asleep and he God gives this promise and it's a unilateral type of covenant and again these Jewish scholars I just read a book by Pope Benedict going through this saying exactly the same thing and oh I can see how the Reformation happened I mean really it's fascinating recognizing a lot of this Jewish scholarship that says you can look at the the difference between what happens in Genesis 15 with Abram as he's having this vision and what happens at Sinai in this vision God is doing all the promising I will make you I will give you I will I will I will I will no ifs ands or buts about it I will do this and then what ratifies that promise is that Abram sees a smoking fire pot passing between the severed pieces well what does that mean that was the ancient near-eastern political Treaty ceremony where both nations representatives would be present and the suzerainty to pass through the ABS saying me the same thing happen to me that happened to these animals if I fail to keep the terms of this treaty it's the same kind of suzerainty treated the difference is God is the one walking through the suburb pieces in Abraham's vision just as he was the one making the promises no wonder Paul appeals to Abraham over the treaty that Israel swore not God that Israel swore at Mount Sinai keeps saying not God swore israel swore at Mount Sinai and it even says that Moses splashed the blood on the people saying in accordance with all of the words you have spoken all this we will do i splash you with it get what's going on the to the different things there the blood be on you now you get to the Upper Room and Jesus says this is my body this is my blood shed for you I am walking through the severed pieces for you tomorrow it's his last will and testament and that's how Hebrews interprets it every time we get together as it were called as an assembly to hear our fathers will execute it by the death of his son our elder brother to hear his will read to us and there's so much in it we have to hear it every week until we die at this seminar in conference a phenomenon will take place today and tomorrow that happens in every conference we had and as a people will come up and ask us to sign their Bibles stop me from one and frequently with that they will say to me and would you please put in your life verse now the first time somebody asked me that I said what's that what's a life versus a Baptist thing or something I we know we do I have my verses where I grew up I really didn't know what that was but that's an American thing it's an American thing okay all right so anyway I want to accommodate people so think about it I got to put a verse in there that's important to me and so I always put in there 15 Genesis 1517 and then they go away and they read it they open elevenses and this smoking pot and this burning fight pass between the pieces you're a sick man RC all right cut back scratching their head and I say what's that I said I'll tell you what that is I've said that if I ever were thrown in prison in solitary confinement I can only have one book of course the book I would want to have would be the Bible and if I were only allowed to have one book of the Bible it would be Romans I mean Hebrews people think you I would say Romans but I don't need a guy I knew it F but Hebrews has so much of all of that stuff that we've been talking about and I said but if I were down to one verse in Sacred Scripture it would be that first because it was in that verse that God promised Abraham the promise of redemption and he promised that because as the author of Hebrews says because he could swear by nothing greater he swore by himself he's saying I ran if I violate this color may my immutability suffering mutation may my eternality be temper alized he put his own divine being on the line he didn't swear by his mother's grave or anything else he said because he could swear were nothing else he said I'm swearing by myself and anytime I'm in a crisis of faith I want to go back to where God made that promise to Abraham this next question is so related to that you maybe have already asked it I would like to hear Michael and RC discuss the Mosaic Covenant is it a republication of the Adamic covenant or an extension of the one covenant of grace can I ask a question I know you can well okay when does this view mean when does this finish do you mean may I or may I may I may I went when does the Scottish like when does this thing stop what stop this this this thing we're doing now because you're thinking this would be a good time no no I'm in four more minutes okay good are you guys okay they keep giving me bottles of water and I it if it goes five I will be gone okay all right I hear you all right okay it's a Scottish thing yeah any anyone who said prostate cancer can identify with this all right Michael oh man um okay I'm going now well that worked of course this is a an issue that has been debated in the whole history of the reformed tradition it where everybody agrees certainly is that there's a difference between the covenant of works in the covenant of grace the the DIF everybody in the reformed everybody in the reformed tradition right the difference comes down to the mosaic economy is it a republication of the covenant of works made with Adam in the garden or is it is it basically part of the covenant of grace in a different administration my own view there I fall out on the side of those who say that it is a republication of the covenant of works in a very in a different period of redemptive history so it's not just a redoing of the Adamic covenant it's at a different stage in history namely where a nation has been taken into God's custody and individuals you know Adam was in a covenant of works individually as the representative for the whole human race Israel however is only in a covenant of works nationally people are still saved the same way abraham was by faith but the nation remains in the land by works by obedience and so I do think that that's why Hebrews says look the old had to become obsolete in order for the new to be fulfilled but the new is already promised in Jeremiah 31 the new was already promised in Genesis 15 the new is already promised in Genesis 3 after the fall so it's it's the presence of the New Covenant even in the Old Testament anticipated that keeps the unity of the Abrahamic covenant together however Paul very clearly contrasts the mosaic covenant with the Abrahamic covenant not Old Testament New Testament but the the Abrahamic covenant versus the Mosaic Covenant in the sharpest possible term saying if you want to be in the Mosaic Covenant still you want to be circumcised do you realize that that obligates you to keep everything in the law you will be justified by your personal performance you're not in with the nation now now you're basically taking this to the point of your own salvation just as Adam but now after you are fallen in Adam do you really want to do this so but it insofar as the Mosaic Covenant was the law that drove us to the gospel right when a lower element in it see that's the thing it here's how I would put it that the the Mosaic Covenant itself the terms of the Mosaic Covenant were do or die straight law giving no power to fulfill it blessing or curse blessing or curse but that to which it pointed was the gospel in other words as one of the reasons I think it's so important that Israel do everything exactly the way God said and if they didn't he would throw them out of the land is this is supposed to be a small-scale replica of the kingdom of heaven this is supposed to point forward to Christ so you better boot do the sacrifices exactly as I tell you because every piece of the sacrifices is pointing in the direction of Christ and if you start getting this wrong and start confusing my worship then it's then Israel will no longer be useful to me because it's no longer going to be a pointer of the to the whole world of the coming Messiah all right well we've already suffered some attrition up here unless I lose dr. Orton as well let me just bring this to a close it time and extend our thanks to dr. Horton and to Alastair for their willingness to be involved a nice question

Channel: Ligonier Ministries

Views: 105,116

Rating: 4.8018866 out of 5

Keywords: body of Christ, resurrection, atonement, old covenant, new covenant, Adamic covenant, Mosaic covenant, covenant of grace, Christian, dispensations, universalism, Federal Vision, prayer, faith, compassion, worship, Christianity (Religion), Church (Type Of Place Of Worship), Jesus Christ (Deity), fal09

Id: SQDvM4cIip4

Length: 60min 52sec (3652 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 22 2013