TODD: Okay, let's get started, we've got a
lot of ground to cover. This is where the rubber meets the road segment. And so, gentlemen, my encouragement to you
is be pithy. I want you to bring this down because we're
going to leave here, many of us are here because we wrestle with the issues at home, so I want
practical, I want helpful so that we can go back to our churches and engage in a loving
truth-telling sort of way. So we depart from here, we're loaded with
great teaching and theology and wonderful expository preaching, and it's big, but these
days with vines being six seconds long, I need short because people have short attention
spans, I know, I'm one of them. How do I keep this all that we have seen,
all that we have heard, how do I keep this from getting into my church? TODD: That was pithy, that was very pithy,
let's go on. We might be done soon. Should let the vendors know. JOHN: Was that short enough for you? TODD: Yes it was, really....What are the safeguards? JOHN: Yeah, I will be obviously coming from
it from a pastoral perspective. I would say, rather than create a groundswell
at the level of your friends that raises distrust in the leadership, I think the right thing
to do would be with a humble heart to go to the leaders, the pastors, your teachers, the
pastoral staff that you know and sit down with them and share your heart and even give
them a copy of the book. And I say that because the arguments in the
book are in the form that God delivered His message, written down, black ink on white
paper, frozen, you can analyze it, you can compare it, you can contrast it, you can memorize
it, you can think about it. If you just take the impressions of this week,
they might...they could be misrepresented. You could get caught up a little bit in the
emotion and not be able to make the case. But that's why the book is so very important. And I would in kindness and with humility
and patience, put the book in the hands of the leaders of the church, or the folks that
are responsible for your pastoral care, and say this is what's on my heart. Could you read this and then could we talk
about this? I think that's when...that's a way to give
honor to those who are over you in the Lord, as we're instructed to do. You know, the last thing that I would want
is someone to leave this conference and go and overturn a church and become revolutionary
and make life difficult for pastors and leaders in a church. And then I get the blame for that for, you
know, creating havoc. I get enough blame for creating havoc anyway. I don't mind the havoc that the truth creates,
but I think handling truth as we even heard again this morning with Paul's instruction
to Timothy with great patience and instruction. And I think you want to start at the top:
leaders, elders, shepherds, pastors and let them have the opportunity to read it and think
it through and then dialogue with you before you invade the church like some kind of alien
and shake things up. TODD: My experience is a lot of pastors, they're
busy studying, counseling and they perhaps, you know, I've got a lot of free time, and
I can be on the Internet a lot, looking at stuff and you see all of this stuff going
on and you get a sense of how big it is, how do I help the pastor, the elder to recognize
this is something while it may not be entering the church in its blatant form is making its
way through the cracks, or can make its way through the cracks...how do I elevate their
understanding and potential concern over this? PHIL: You first have to have a platform, a
legitimate platform to do that with your pastor. If you're not someone who has encouraged him
and come alongside him and got to know him, then you don't really have the good platform
to do that. So you need to do that as a church member
anyway, know your pastor, encourage your pastor, be a friend to him and then you have a platform
to correct his theology. The worst thing that happens in churches is
churches are filled with people who are on the periphery, they attend and sit on the
sidelines and only approach the pastor ever if they want to criticize. There's nobody in the world responds well
to criticism like that. So...so, do unto others as you would have
them do unto you and starting with your pastor, especially if you have a concern for him and
want to criticize him, you need to do it in a way, as John said, honors his place as the
man God has put in the teaching role in that church. JOHN: And I think, Todd, just to add because
this is where we're going today, there are a lot of pastors who don't know where they
are on this and they haven't addressed it and they've allowed all kinds of things to
come together in the church that they've never thought about it critically. And part of the reason for that is no one
has dealt with it. Already on the Internet I'm being hit pretty
hard because this is some kind of a fixation with me, this is some kind of a long-term
sort of enduring obsession with me. And I remind people that we've had...we've
had 40-some years at Grace Community Church and we have never had a conference like this,
never. This is not an obsession and these criticisms
started coming two days in. I think there are a lot of people just don't
know what they think. Some of the leaders that you're going to talk
about today and we're going to hear from in these video clips admit that they don't know
what to think. They don't know what to do with this. So that's why the book is so important because
it makes a very thoughtful, very sound biblical theological case and I think that's where
you need to start. Put it in their hands. And if they don't have the desire to even
read it, they have to face the fact that that's being irresponsible for the shepherding of
the flock. That's why I think the book's aspect of it
is so important. TODD: Okay, in a sentence, again don't hit
the pastor after church, he's done preaching, "Hey, you really need to get on this Jesus
Culture business," and walk out the door. But if I had to say in a sentence, pithily,
what do I say to the pastor to say, "I'm giving you this book because..." What? Why am I doing this? Why am I giving them this book? That will get him to go, "I think I need to
read this thing." JOHN: You know the way I would approach it
and I think it's pretty simple is this is a deep spiritual burden to me. This is a matter of prayer for the church
around the world and for our church and for you and for the people in our influence. This is Psalm 16, "Zeal for your house has
eaten me up. The reproaches that fall on You are falling
on me. This is an ache in my heart. This is of deep concern to me and I'd love
to know, if you share that concern, would you be willing to read this?" TODD: Yes, great question...yeah, that's great...that's
great. It's not, "You need to read this and believe
this. Read it, tell me what it is. Excellent. All right. I see some of this entering into my church,
whether it's the music, prophesying, hearing from God, and I'm...I'm...I know that it's
in there. Is there ever a point where I can determine
the church has crossed a line and it's time for my family to go elsewhere? (Silence.) TODD: Thank you for pondering that. Okay. PHIL: That's a...that's a really complex question
because every situation is different. And I would have to ask a barrage of questions... TODD: Principle us. PHIL: ...before I would counsel anyone on
that, starting with, you know, "What are the other churches in your area like? How did you end up in this church? How long have you been there?" You know, "Tell me what specifically your
concerns are," and all. In the broad sort of principle category, I
would say any church whose leadership has shown a willful failure to follow Scripture
as their authority, I'd be inclined to encourage you, probably to find a better church. If it's just that you don't like the taste
of music, you know, that you think there's too much percussion in the songs, or whatever...I'm
less likely to encourage you to move on. And a lot of it depends on, you know, what
other churches in your area? When people come to me with that question,
my first thought is not, "You know, how do we get you out of this mess?" But what is there in your church right now
that you could do to exercise your spiritual gift to try to take that church from where
it is to where it ought to be. Because there aren't any perfect churches. If you're looking for a perfect church, you're
going to be frustrated. And when you find that perfect church, don't
join it because you'll mess it up. So I mean those are the big principles. But my first question is and the way I wish
people would think is, "What is there in my spiritual giftedness that I could do to start
to influence this church in the right direction." And if that is an utterly hopeless cause,
then we can talk about maybe you ought to leave that church. TODD: All right. JOHN: And I think there's a biblical model
that has always been helpful to me. If you were in Asia Minor at the end of the
first century and you were in Ephesus and Ephesus is a church that left its first love,
where did you go? You had nowhere to go. That's the only church. Or if you were in any of those other churches,
except Smyrna and Philadelphia, you had epic issues going on to the degree that the Lord
was going to remove the candle and judge the church. But repeatedly, the Lord said to the church,
"Blessed are those who have not soiled their garments." I think there are times when you're there
and you're there like a believer in a marriage with a unbeliever. You're the source of divine blessing on that...the
people are blessed through you because you're receiving the blessing from God because of
the faithfulness. So I think...I think it's important to understand
that there were most times in church history, people couldn't run from place to place, to
place, to place, to place. That was not only in the New Testament era,
but long after that. I mean, see yourself throughout the history
of the church and ask where did the true believers go? I mean, it was not uncommon for them to be
stuck even in Roman Catholicism, before there was a breakout. So, I think, you know, we can't treat this
like consumers. And another thing to add to that is this,
leadership in the church these days changes very rapidly. I don't know what the average stay of a pastor
in a church is, but it's probably two or three years. People who run under one pastor, may regret
it when the Lord in His goodness gets them another one. You want to be sure that you don't run before
the Lord makes a change that could be to your blessing and to your benefit. So I think patience in that situation, as
Phil said, using your gift, realizing that God has you there for a purpose. And then one other thing. The Lord still has those churches in His hand. If there are believers there, they belong
to Him. And they're in His hand. And He has the best for them. Having said all of that, I would say if there's
a more faithful church preaching the Word of God faithfully in sound doctrine, and God
is blessing that church, go there. TODD: All right. I go home and I see ten things...the music
is hypnotic, they're calling down the fire, the pastor is telling the congregation on
occasion God, you know, he really felt the nudging prompting liver-shiver, and you see
a lot of things that are causing you to go, "Yikes." How do I begin to approach it each and every
issue? Do I deal with every single person? What is the best way to approach it if I'm
sensing my church is a bit of a mess? You're doing it again, Mount Rushmore. We need some answers here, people. CONRAD: Well perhaps let me break my silence
to answer something. I think we need to appreciate the fact that
ultimately the behavior is the fruit of the person's belief. So you've got the fruit and the root. Instead of simply beginning to fight the fruits,
the behavior, it would be important for you to help with the understanding, to help with
the doctrinal roots from which all this is coming. Another example is if you look at the Pauline
epistles, it's...it's always he deals with the doctrinal and then says therefore, you
know this is wrong, or therefore, this is the way you ought to live. And therefore the issue that was raised earlier
on in seeing what your gifts are, participating positively, warmly in the context of the church,
winning the right to be heard as you are helping people to understand the gist of what the
Bible teaches, I think gives you a good enough platform to enable individuals to begin to
think. Of course, depending on your position, if
you're the church pastor, you have a longer stretch, big opportunity. If you honor the lead does, you are closer
to the possible help with the changes. If you're further down the line, you really
need a lot more patience. So that's what I would say. JOHN: This is a very important point and I
would just go so far as to say the most extensive doctrinal statement that I have ever seen
is Grace Community Church doctrinal statement. It's the same doctrinal statement for the
Master's College, the Master's Seminary, and Grace to You. I don't know how long...how long is it, Phil? Have you looked at it? PHIL: It's a booklet and it... JOHN: It's an entire booklet of what we believe. PHIL: Yeah, 25-24 pages, something like that. JOHN: I think it should be an absolute in
a church that you have a highly defined doctrinal statement. You may even go back to the Westminster Confession,
Shorter Catechism, may go back to a Baptist Confession, something like that. You know, and while we sometimes wonder about
confessional Christianity, those confessions were the product as we heard from Steve last
night of 1100 hours of diligent work by men who were scholars in the Word. And I think all churches should be able to
go back to that. We're never at sea here because everything
is defined in that doctrinal statement. And I think that becomes the anchor. That becomes the foundation that holds you. And I think so going to a church leader and
say, "Pastor, I'm concerned about our doctrinal statement, have we really defined these things? What is the church's position on these things? Are we working on that? Are we thinking about that? Could we help with that? Could somebody take a look at that? Could we get some people together to talk
about that? Whatever it needs to be. But I think he's absolutely right. You've got to back up to that because the
temporary view of fitting into the culture forces people to disregard that and just follow
trends. And if you follow the trends, you're going
to end up in the Charismatic Movement. PHIL: Let me back up even one step further
and say, you need to ask yourself, what are you doing in this church in the first place? If you came to this church because they have
a better youth program or you like the music, or whatever, and it's not the soundest church
in your community, there's a church with better teaching, but they don't have the youth program
or the music you like, or whatever. So you decided to go to the bigger church,
you know, for business reasons, or something you liked better, even knowing that its doctrinal
foundation was not as sound, what are you doing in that church? When you decide where you're going to take
your family to go, you better choose the church with the best teaching, regardless of what,
you know, their youth program...whether the youth program measures up to (applause), what
the mega churches are doing. TODD: If I could also say on behalf of Nathan,
could I suggest if...I think we have a tendency to look at the church and go, "Oh, there's
so much...and I want the whole ship turned around immediately." Maybe fine, start teaching Sunday School,
most likely they're not going to check on what you're teaching anyway, if it's that
loosy goosy, and start teaching your group of six or eight and do what you can do to
affect change. Maybe it's not correcting the whole ship,
but it's at least getting involved with some folks to steer them rightly. Would that be wise? Good place to start? NATHAN: I was always taught that children
don't speak until the elders have spoken. So...just wanted to clarify that. You know, I think it's important to make sure
that we're always bringing people back to the biblical text and that we're not allowing
our own experiences, or their own experiences to be the authority but rather we are examining
everything, our own thinking, their experiences, we're bringing it back to the text of Scripture. That's our authority. The reason we are cessationists is because
we are convinced that that's what the Word of God teaches. And we then, we encourage people to go back
to the text. And I think as long as we're bringing it back
to the text, we're honoring the Spirit who inspired this Word. (Applause) TODD: All right. JOHN: Todd, I want to just add one note and
I'll say more about this tonight. The contemporary evangelical church has very
little interest in theology and doctrine. So you're going to have a tough sell. It's about style. It's about style. And style is the Trojan Horse that lets Charismatics
in the church because once you let the music in, the movement follows because it all of
a sudden becomes common. Now we sound like the Charismatics, we sing
the same things they do, we start waving our hands the way they wave their hands, we're
having the same kind of emotional feelings that they have, it's a small step from doing
the same music to buying into the movement. So I think...the tough thing is, you're going
back to a church that's kind of thinking like that. It's hard to make sound doctrine the issue
when style is much more the interest of the leaders in the church. TODD: Yeah, I think that's going to be a lot
of folks challenge when they leave here. Gentlemen, what I'd like to do by way of rubber
meeting the road here is I want to share with you some of the objections to this teaching,
some of this objection to this conference because I suspect these things will be some
of the things that we hear if we go back and try to incorporate these or bring these things
back. So these were some of the comments that were
made prior to the conference, and even during the conference through some tweeting, and
I suspect these might be things that you also hear. Some people have been tweeting based on some
of the clips we shared yesterday. Some of the things that we saw with people
writhing on the floor, the repetitive music, some of the things that seem to most of us
to be pretty outstanding, that those are simply the fringe elements of the Charismatic Movement. That is not who we are, therefore knock it
off. NATHAN: Yeah, you know, part of what the Strange
Fire book talks about is that what people think is the fringe is actually become mainstream. And we talk about a hundred and twenty million
Charismatic Catholics, we talk about twenty-five million oneness Pentecostals. John T. Allen in his book Future Church talks about
the fact it's based on the Pew Forum Research, that upwards of ninety percent, in some cases
more than ninety percent of all Pentecostals in most countries around the world believe
in the Prosperity Gospel. So when you just do the simple math, this
is hundreds of millions of people who hold to a false gospel. It is the majority of the Movement. TODD: But we don't do that. We're not falling on the ground. We're not trembling and Kundalini-ing so this
has nothing to do with me. What do we say? JOHN: But here's the problem. You're not doing in your church, but your
kids are listening to Jesus Culture music, so when Jesus Culture comes into the sixteen-thousand
seat deal and they go, they are falling down and they are doing that. And they're beginning to see those behaviors
and join the mosh pit kind of mentality. And then it eventually it simply imports itself
back into the church. You know there's going to be resistance to
that kind of thing in some places. But it crosses over. I mean, look Hillsong is everywhere. Jesus Culture is everywhere. It is marketed, it has spread like wildfire. I don't know who was telling me yesterday
that fourteen hundred young people come in to Redding, California to be trained for a
year to spread this stuff everywhere in that Bethel Church. And so, they create events and they're in
the name of Jesus and young people from your church go and they buy in. There's...you have to draw the line before
you get to the entry point, I think, or you end up allowing that kind of behavior. TODD: Let me if I could have the A.V. department
cue up clip 007...007. We've been saying and I think rightly so that
Jesus Culture and other bands like this are kind of the entry drug, if you will, into
this movement. I would like to share with us, however, that
they don't wait to teach people after the Jesus concert...Jesus Culture concert, there
is indeed preaching and teaching that happens IN the Jesus Culture concert, not to mention
the theology inside their music. So this is clip double 0 7. This is Kim Walker of Jesus Culture describing
her encounter with God. This is clip double 07. If your kids go to Jesus Culture, this is
what they're going to get. KIM WALKER: ...and that is the truth. I can say that right now where...where I'm
living in my life, in this moment, in this season, just being here right now, this is
the fruit of that moment. Those many moments, actually, a long time
ago of hours and hours of sitting and just waiting on God, and just pressing in, pouring
out my heart, pouring out my heart, pouring out all that I can on Him whether or not I
heard anything or saw anything, or had any radical encounter, I just kept saying, "I
know, I know that I will live in the fruit of this moment one day." And I kept pressing in. These are like those...the two keys, okay?
for this connection, fighting for that relationship. No offense in the heart. And pressing in knowing that one day we'll
live in the fruit of that moment. And I still do that to this day. Even now in my life, when I have those moments,
I still tell myself, "One day I will live in the fruit of this moment." I just want to share a verse, we're going
to go into worship here pretty soon. I love this, 1 John 3:18. "Dear Children, Let us not love with words
or tongue but with actions and in truth." Let us not love with just words on a screen,
but with action with truth, with all that we are, let us pour out our love on Jesus,
let's give Him all that we are and all that we have because isn't He deserving of that? TODD: I'm going to ask the A.V. department
to put a stop on that, if you'd be so kind. I'm not sure why it didn't get to the part
of the presentation there, so let me just tell you where she is going to, this seems
to have been recorded a little bit sooner. So we'll save everybody the pain. She encountered God, Jesus appeared to her. She had a conversation with Jesus. She communed with Jesus. He held her. This was her...what really launched her was
her encounter with God. No, she said it doesn't happen all the time
but it has happened throughout her life. And that was just a part of her presentation,
her encounter with God. So leaving the critique of it aside, they're
getting theology...they do teach, they stop and open up a Bible and they do teach at the
concerts. PHIL: And it's bad theology. I've seen that. One of my sons showed me that whole clip that
goes on for an hour and a half. That's an hour and a half long video and she's
talking...what she's saying is that she lives basically from encounter to encounter. It's not about the Word of God, or the truth
of God, it's about her experiences and how she...she lives between these experiences,
and she's definitely teaching...you said theology, I'd say deplorably bad theology...and you're
right. That...that is the entry level for a lot of
young people. Jesus Culture was the music group this year
at Louie Giglio's Passion. John Piper was a speaker there. So this is not some far-off extreme out on
the fringe. This stuff is bleeding into the mainstream
of our churches. TODD: Right. JOHN: You know, this is classic marketing,
make people discontent, make them feel like they're out of touch, out of date, out of
style, out of mode. So you take a typical kid, put him in that
environment, he is clueless about this kind of experience. "What is she talking about?" When I was in junior high, and, you know,
there was never a time when I didn't believe in the Lord and I read Thomas à Kempis. I didn't even know what he was talking about. But I thought, you're missing something, you
don't have it. I've never had these mystical feelings of
the presence of God. So I got a book on prayer by E.M. Bounds, remember that, Phil? And it got worse. What is this? Then I got, Tom will identify with this, Witness
Lee, and I'm a junior-high kid, I'm a high-school kid. I'm basically your average football player,
baseball player guy who just loves the Lord and is wondering if I'm missing everything. I mean, they're literally...they're literally
dupes for this kind of thing. You take a kid who knows his life isn't right,
who sees this kind of esoteric, almost transcendental kind of religious experience being portrayed
before him, he has no idea what's out there, he's not theologically informed...I can just
tell you from my own personal experience, I read things about people who wore holes
in a wooden floor from praying for so long in the same place...I couldn't comprehend
that kind of behavior, couldn't even grasp it. And fortunately by the goodness of God, I
was kept from that path into which a whole lot of other young people went even in those
early years of my life. So I think it is...it is a preparedness of
their hearts that comes from knowing they're short of what real spirituality should be. And they know that. And they get suckered in to this kind of thing. And before they know it, they're caught up
in it and the emotional falsification, the illegitimate substitute they buy into. And they carry that back and they go to the
church and they hear people sing, "Amazing Grace," and the preacher gets up and explains
a few verses in Scripture and they will think that he doesn't have it either and they don't
have it either because they got it at the Jesus Culture deal. TODD: Uh-huh. Let me ask for, if I could, please, clip number
23, this is very brief, clip number 23. Remember, Jesus Culture, it is a ministry
of Bethel Church in Redding, California. The senior pastor, he's just passed the torch
to his son and now he's, I think, considered the international ambassador apostle, Bill
Johnson. But this is clip 23, this is the...this is
the church...this is the church that they come out of and the type of teaching then
that the kids find. This is Bill Johnson of Bethel Church. PHIL: By the way, when you say that on the
radio, would you be more precise that's BILL Johnson. TODD: (Laughing) You can tell the difference,
you speak authoritatively. This is a big mushbomb is what this is. All right...it is...Bill Johnson. BILL JOHNSON: Not everything that comes at
us is God's will. We have confusion, one of our biggest areas
of confusion in the church is concerning the sovereignty of God. We know that God is all-powerful. We know that He is in charge of everything. But with that we make a mistake in thinking
He is in control of everything. There's a difference from being in charge
and being in control. If you think He is in control of everything,
then you have to believe that Hitler was His will, that He was just going to work it for
His purposes. TODD: Now, that's not all that subtle, frankly. But that is just a little snippet. JOHN: Did you notice the absence of the Bible? This is Bill Johnson. PHIL: BILL Johnson. TODD: All right, okay. Let me share some more of the objections that
I would like to share with you. Hearing from God is not new revelation. You keep saying I should tack it on the book
of Revelation, hearing from God is not new revelation. Your response? NATHAN: Well, Wayne Grudem says it is. So they define it as new revelation and they
will call it revelation from God. So to say that it's not would be a cessationist
way of speaking. But the Charismatics themselves actually do
refer to it as revelation from God. And they'll say that the revelation is perfect
but then that the human instrument messes it up. The problem is, in Deuteronomy 18 and all
throughout Scripture, those who speak on God's behalf are required to relay that revelation
accurately. If they distort it, they come under the condemnation
of God's own requirements for those who speak on His behalf. TODD: Okay, so we would say to them, if God
is talking to you, that is indeed revelation. All right? Okay? Any other? JOHN: Well yeah, what else would it be? If this is God giving you information, by
definition that is revelation from God. And if it's to you now, it's new revelation. This is the folly of this movement. And then to say that it's okay for us to mess
it up, right? It's okay for us to clobber it and misrepresent
it because we're fallible and it's fallible and God somehow works it out anyway, is, as
we heard, and we've heard several times, is to completely turn the idea of God's revelation
on its head. But of course it's new revelation. What is so bizarre about it is, there is no
way to verify it. There is no way. TODD: Right. JOHN: And just because it isn't heresy, we're
supposed to say it's new revelation. If it's not heresy, it's new revelation. But all things that God has deemed for us
to know for life and godliness are already on the pages of holy Scripture and no new
revelation is required or allowed. But for them to say it's not new revelation
is ridiculous. If God's saying it, it's revelation. When Sarah Young writes these books Jesus
is Calling , and she says Jesus is speaking to me and Jesus says this, and then writes
the book in the first person, she is claiming these are the words of Jesus. That's scary. TODD: People will say that, "Come on, we're
talking about 500 million people here, I see good fruit coming out of people. They really do love the Lord, you're telling
this entire movement is condemned to hell? Everybody is wrong? We'll show you the fruit, there's good fruit
there, don't you see it? Quit critiquing." CONRAD: Well, I think the difficulty there
is basically that you are putting the cart before the horse. I mean, Roman Catholicism will show you some
good fruit, especially out in Africa at a social level. They put up schools. They put up hospitals which have benefited,
you know, entire nations. But that does not therefore mean that Roman
Catholicism is correct. And again, they are in the millions. So we need to always begin with what does
the Bible say. Begin from that foundation. And then you have your "therefore" what should
be a consequence of that? And that's where the error is, is the fact
that the Bible is very clear that with the foundation laid, the generations succeeding
that are to expound the teaching that was brought forth in an extra-ordinary way through
those foundations which teaches the Apostles and New Testament prophets. Now that's straight-forward. Anybody therefore who begins to bring in another
approach, wanting to lengthen that is opening a door, a dangerous door where in due season
the kinds of things we've talked about here begin to be common fare. It becomes the regular diet. Those of you who have been exposed to regular
teaching of God's Word, you were sighing and groaning when you were hearing some of the
things being said, and out of the people who were sitting, listening to some of these things,
to them that's it. It's life. After all, my teacher is the one who is teaching
this, it must be correct. So I think, let's always keep getting back
to the basic principle. And it's not so much there's some good being
done, look at it. It is what saith the Scriptures. TODD: Phil. PHIL: Yeah, let me say this about good fruit,
too. You can't always tell at first glance what's
truly good fruit. I bought a bag of peaches just last month,
seriously, when I got it home...when I got it home, these are great looking peaches,
cut them open, every one of them was rotting from the seed out. I think they had been frozen or something. Spiritual fruit is the same way. Sometimes it looks good, but you have to analyze
it. And what...the real test of good fruit is
the underlying core of teaching. That's what Conrad was saying. If it's not based on and centered on the truth,
if the truth isn't built into it, it's not really good fruit. TODD: One of the critiques prior to the conference
that I'm sure after the conference and it might be one that we...let me just clarify
this first cause I just want to make sure I've got this right. You're a cessationist, is that correct? Okay. So what they will say is, you cessationists
have no business making any sort of critiques about Charismatics who are continuationists,
this is not your house, you stay in your own house, don't try to clean up ours. It's none of your business. JOHN: Well, I've lived with that. I mean, we live within five miles of the kind
of Pentecostal mecca in this area, Church on the Way. We've had parallel years since I came here
with that. And the conversations that I've had sound
like this. "God has blessed John MacArthur. Imagine what God could so with him if he had
the Holy Spirit." TODD: Wow! JOHN: I've heard that for years here. I've heard that for years. He's not equipped to critique this movement
because he's void of the Spirit. So there's nothing for me to say. It's a frightening world to live in. I don't know how many years ago, a new pastor
was appointed to this church and a prophet came, I think it was a Kansas City Prophet,
I think, came, laid hands on him, said he's going to be, this new pastor will be the prophet
of the world. He's going to do miracles and signs and wonders
and going to spread around the globe. The prophecy--took his hands off--he had a
brain aneurism, died. The pastor. I went to the funeral. I said, "What's going on? And the person that I spoke with, I was there
for the funeral just out of respect and love for some of the folks there, I said, "What's
going on?" Well the prophecy was true so the devil killed
him." I would rather...you know, you would like
them to believe that we had the Holy Spirit here because it's true, all of us in Christ. But their perceptions are that far off. In other words, they not only misunderstand
us, they misunderstand their own situation. So it's impossible apart from them coming
to a biblical understanding. TODD: By the way, if you ever try to use this
as a tactic to state, you know, why is it that certainly there's got to be some believers
in this assembly, why doesn't the Holy Spirit show up in those ways in this community? And the response will be because the Holy
Spirit is a gentleman and He is not going to come barging in where He's not invited. So that's why we don't act the way that they
act, because we're saved, I guess, but the Holy Spirit has invited it. That's why it doesn't happen. JOHN: And that fits...that fits the control
that supposedly the believer has over the powers, over the demonic powers and even over
the Holy Spirit, like Benny Hinn. You know, he doesn't do anything until I say
something. TODD: Right, right. PHIL: You know what the best Charismatics,
those who really do have a concern about the authority of Scripture, were actually critiquing
their own movement and sounding an adequate alarm to the people who follow them, we wouldn't
have had this conference. But somebody needs to say this. TODD: I would like to try...we're going to
have to do this somewhat quickly, clips 15 and 25 if you'd be so kind and this will kind
of have to represent some of our friends. We would say that John Piper is a brother. We would say that Wayne Grudem is a brother. We would say...and so these are some biblical
scholars that many of us perhaps have read and loved for years who are saying some things
that are causing us to scratch our heads. And what I would like to focus on as we take
a look at clip number 15, and then let's just do clip number 25 for the sake of time. Clip number 25 for the sake of time. How then do we respond to these men? What do we do with these, talking then about
associations with whom do we relate? With whom do we relate and associate? With whom do we break relationships with? Where do we draw those lines. Let's start with John Piper, clip number 25,
talking about speaking in tongues on a YouTube video. JOHN PIPER: But I thought of tongues, and
I said I haven't asked for tongues for a long time. I just paused, I'm walking back and forth
in my living room, Tala is up in her room, Noel is at the gym. And I said, "Lord, I'm still eager to speak
in tongues. Would You give me that gift?" Now at that point you can try to say banana
backwards if you want to. I used to sit in the car outside church, singing
in tongues. But I knew I wasn't. I was just making it up. And I said this isn't it. I know this isn't it. But this is what they try to get you to do
if you're in that certain group. And I just...I did everything to try to open
myself to this and the Lord has always said to me, without words, "No." No. But He never just said no, He always said,
"John Piper, I have given you a gift, I've given you the gift of teaching, of preaching,
of shepherding. You shepherd the prophets. You shepherd the tongue speakers. I'm not going to give it to you." But I don't assume that's His last word, and
so every now and then I'm just going to go back to him like a child and say, "A lot of
my brothers and sisters have this toy...this gift, can I have it, too?" TODD: All right, now we could show clips,
for instance, of...we have some of Wayne Grudem talking about some prophecies in his church
where, for instance, there was a young lady who had been struggling with an illness. Four people approached the pastor and said,
"Have a sense, and that we've been given a word that she's going to die. So we prayed like crazy and she didn't die,
and we all rejoiced in that." Pastoral implications aside of that. Wayne Grudem, I don't know that there's anybody
who doesn't have a systematic theology on their bookshelf. John Piper, we have all loved so much of his
preaching. What do we do with these men when they say
things like that? PHIL: I think it's important to critique those
comments honestly. And I did, as a matter of fact respond to
that very comment yesterday in my breakout session. I had a couple of people come up to me afterwards
and say, "Well then...because I also said, Look, I love John Piper, I've benefited from
him, I've learned things from him. I'm not prepared to throw him out completely....and
they said you should, you just should." And my response to that is the times in which
we are living are the theological parallel to the book of Judges where every man does
what's right in his own eyes. And there isn't of consistent voice, there's
no king in Israel, there's no consistent voice in the church that...that sort of polices
all that stuff. Everybody is doing what's right in their own
eyes, and it's not even considered political correct to sit in a venue like this, and say,
"This is wrong." That's...that's automatically considered unkind,
uncharitable, unloving. You can't disagree anymore. So everybody can say what they want. In a time when every man does what's right
in his own eyes, and nobody is willing to speak with a voice of clarity and say that's
wrong, you're going to have men, lots of men in whom there's lots of good and some bad. And the question I always ask people who say
that, What would you say about Samson? Would you say he's a good guy, you should
follow him? And most of us would say I think know, Samson
made a wreck of his life and yet he's in Hebrews 11. And I think the same thing about a lot of
these men. Despite what I would criticize and disagree
with them, they're men of faith and I think that deserves to be recognized. JOHN: You know, I think that with somebody
like John Piper, this is a complete anomaly. That is just so off everything else about
him. I'm not talking about percentages. You know, we ask ourselves, it's not that
he speaks in tongues, it's not that he prophesies. He's never...he's admitted that. It's just that there's this anomaly in his
mind that is open to that, and that's the way he's always stated that, that he's open
to that, he's open to that. He's even made statements like I don't know,
I'm not sure. I don't know exactly what to think about all
this. So that's a far cry from the propagation side
of it. And so I look at this with him and even with
Wayne Grudem who has made such immense contributions in so many ways, as an anomaly. And I don't know, nor do I need to know where
the impulse of this comes from, where the influence comes from. Sometimes it comes from family. Sometimes it comes from a spouse. You know, we...we...we see that, we understand
that. I don't know where these influences come from. But I do know the great body of work that
John Piper has done is true to the faith. And John is a friend, whom I not only admire
but whom I love. And I don't know why on this front he has
that open idea. But it is...it is not an advocacy position
for the movement and he would...he would join us in decrying the excesses of that movement
for sure, and even the theology of it. So I think if we start shutting everybody
down whose got one thing they're not clear on, or you know, we're going to really find
ourselves alone. And that's going too far. I have no fear that John would ever tamper
with anything that is essential to the Christian faith. Starting from theology proper, all the way
through to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, he's going to be faithful to the Word of God
as he understands it in a historical sense. How to explain anomalies like this, I have
the same issue with my dear friend R.C. Sproul. You know, I want to say to him, "Why are you
baptizing babies?" You would say the same thing to him. Right. He's a Reformed Baptist, but...and we say,
it's not...I don't understand that, everything else is so clear and, you know, well thought
out and biblically defended, but I fully embrace the range of his commitment and the impact
of his ministry. So I think at this point, this is where love
comes in to embrace faithful men. And then when I look at myself, I say, "Look,
I know I'm wrong somewhere and if you can show me where, please show me cause I would
change." But I know somewhere I'm wrong because none
of us has a complete control of all truth. And I hope to have the same charity from them
that I would eagerly extend to them. TODD: So, if I hear a pastor say, "Reading
from John Piper's work," I don't have to think that the pastor's tainted or a heretic because
he quoted John Piper who said on a You Tube video so many months about speaking in tongues. JOHN: No, but I wish and I'm going to say
this a little bit later tonight, I wish they would see that they don't need to be unclear
about this issue, because the lack of clarity on this issue has given room to this movement. These guys give credibility to this movement
by even allowing for it. (Applause) TODD: All right. As we close, gentlemen, what I'd like to do
and Phil will start...we'll start with you and make our way and try to keep this tight,
we're going to leave here and I suspect almost everybody is thinking about something in their
church, a family member, their mom, and they're wondering just how to go about and what to
do with all of this. Whatever the scenario is, they're going back
and they're going to be addressing and confronting these issues. You would give them one piece of advice, one
suggestion, and then we'll let you apply it as you see fit. Phil, what would it be? PHIL: It would be, immerse yourself in the
Word of God. You know you don't have to take my word for
it and I don't ask people to change their minds the first time they hear me teach on
something. Be like a Berean, study the Word for yourself. And if you can coax your Charismatic friends
to really truly devote themselves to finding out what does Scripture teach about this,
then you're miles ahead. And they're on their way to abandoning some
of these extremes. TODD: Nathan? NATHAN: Yeah, celebrate the true work of the
Holy Spirit. Don't allow the Charismatic Movement to replace
a celebration of the true work of the Holy Spirit with counterfeits. The true work of the Holy Spirit is His work
in salvation, His work in illumination of the Scriptures, and listen, when we go to
the Word of God, we are sitting at the feet of the author of the Word of God, and the
Holy Spirit is the one who has given us this book. So to go to the Scriptures is to go to the
Spirit. TODD: Conrad? CONRAD: I think basically what's already been
said, sola scriptura , keep that in mind, that's the foundation. Everything else pillars and you have the roof
on top, but always remember the Scriptures. If any contradicts the Scriptures, there is
no light or life in them. JOHN: And you can personalize that a little
bit. I think you need to say to people, "Show me
from the Word of God why you believe that, let's talk about that. I think if you pounce with all your Bible
verses, you put them on defense. But if you ask them to explain to you from
the Word of God why they believe what they believe and start the discussion, you can
lead them into the Scripture. I think they live with assumptions that have
never been proven, even to their own minds. So put the burden on them. The burden lies with them to prove their point. And I think if they're not willing to do that,
if they're disinterested in that, if that's too much trouble or too much effort for them,
then they need to face the absence of integrity in denying you that. So I would put the burden on them, encourage
them. You want to understand why they believe what
they believe, and you'd like them to show you why they believe that from Scripture,
and then be willing to discuss that with you. TODD: Might I toss on top of it, if you decide
to confront somebody, might I encourage you instead of attacking the teacher, attack the
teaching because if you attack the teacher, you're touching God's anointed, you're going
after perhaps their best friend, somebody that they really revere and you are just in
for a cat fight. Go after the teaching, as opposed to the teacher. The second thing I might suggest is as we've
been hearing, I think, rather grievously, the majority of these folks are caught up
in a very wrong system. It might be starting instead of debating eschatology,
speaking in tongues, prophesy, gifts of wisdom, share the gospel with these folks. Witness to these folks. Help them understand the true gospel and how
magnificent it is. Third, I would add to that, I really think
that a lot of people run to this movement because they've never been shown that Christianity
is vibrant and vital and alive and the theology works, and that we need to be showing them,
telling them, teaching them, "Now let me show..." you think that theology is all stodgy, let's
take this theology and I'm going to show you what this does in your life. So that they don't stop running for the experiential
and the whimsical and the feelings base but the knowledge base knowing that it actually
does something and that frankly is exciting. And my final exhortation, if I might be so
bold, is you're...in America, these days, we think that we've got to write a best-selling
book. We better have a TV show. That's the only thing that makes an impact
and we cannot do something be frustrated and just get out of the game, or carp a lot because
we just don't see this whole thing changing. It's not going to change overnight and nobody
in this room is going to be the room who accomplishes that. So what can you do? Where you are, think local church. Get plugged in, volunteer, teach the little
kids, you know the little four-year-old armadillos, start teaching them, the little junior-high
group, whatever it is, start your Bible study, start mentoring. I see some, and it's lovely to see, some gray
hair in this audience, identify somebody younger and start mentoring them and do what you can
do where God has called you to be. And I know that He's called you to be there
because you're there. Okay? Don't be discouraged that the whole thing
doesn't change, do what you can do and maybe God will be kind to show you a little victory
here, and a little victory there. And if we all do that, that's how God's Kingdom
marches on. Not with one big overnight victory, but with
a million small ones as we go and we all be faithful to the gospel. So with that, Conrad, will you pray for us. CONRAD: All right, let's pray. Our Father in heaven, we thank You for the
opportunity You've given us to think through a number of questions. We realize, O Lord, that in this short time
it would not have been possible to handle them through any meaningful depth, and we
thank You that Your Holy Spirit is with us, each one, and we have Your Word and therefore
You continue to teach us, to guide us, to correct us, and even where we are stubbornly
wrong, to rebuke us that we might be fashioned after the image of Christ. Therefore we pray that that which we have
learned here, we might take to heart and that which you come here to teach us will build
us to be better instruments in Your hands. Dismiss us now, therefore, from this gathering
in Jesus' name. Amen.
