Is The End Near? End Times: Part 2 | Guests: Jeff Durbin & Joel Webbon | Ep 285

[Music] hey guys welcome to relatable today we will have part two of my conversation with jeff durbin about post-millennialism and his view of the end times and today i will actually get to that question that burning question do you believe we are in the end times right now and you might be surprised by his answer i was so i'm really excited for you to hear the rest of this conversation which a lot of you have said has just really made you think and that's good whether or not you agree with him whether or not i agree with him it challenges us to talk to someone who takes the word of god very seriously and may come to different conclusions than we do about eschatology and that's okay that's a wonderful thing about having the word of god and having fellowship and conversations with other believers is that we are actually challenged in our views and we become either firmer in what we believe based on the word of god or we go a different direction to better align our views with the word of god and i will be talking in the near future to a pre-millennialist as i am i'm post trib pre-mill i will be talking to a person who is pre-millennialist and so you might feel oh are you just trying to confuse me ally no i'm not i'm just trying to make sure um that we are looking at this from all sides and a lot of you have commented on youtube about uh don't forget about a millennialist yes i'm very sympathetic to that perspective as well and so maybe we'll have someone on with the a millennialist perspective uh too did a whole podcast called in times if you have no idea what i'm talking about go back and listen to that from about a year ago okay i do want to remind you guys um that it is friday which means i am just a few days away from releasing my book you're not enough and that's okay escaping the toxic culture of self-love so excited for you guys to get your hands on this a lot of you have already pre-ordered you have sent your proof of purchase to alibistucky at penguinrandomhouse.com you've gotten your excerpt which i've gotten so much amazing feedback from so thank you guys some of you have even request like social media graphics uh requested social media graphics so you have been able to promote and share online that means so much to me thank you so much for your support for everyone who has always already joined women's book club with ali stuckey on facebook if you haven't done that make sure you do if you are in fact a woman go to allybethstucky.com book that's where you can find all the places that you can pre-order this book um and we will start to talk about it in women's book club with ali stuckey on facebook a couple weeks after the release date um to make sure that everyone can get it and enough people can join so we can actually talk about it together so again thank you so much to all of your support to everyone who has pre-ordered if you have not done so i encourage you to do so buy some for your family for the people in your church for your bible study maybe go through it together with uh with a group of girls we've got a study guide coming out that will be available to you so go out alibasegi.com or go to your local barnes noble your local bookstore your local library and pick it up and read it and please feel free to let me know what you think so again alybestdecky.com book now before we get into the conversation with jeff i want to let you know that we're going to do something a little bit different at the end of my conversation with jeff there's actually another shorter conversation that i will be having with apologist and pastor joel webben he is the head of right response ministries he wrote a book called am i truly saved the book is an essential commentary on first john written in a devotional style each chapter contains clear explanations of challenging biblical passages that are concise easy to understand also weapon has offered reflection questions at the end of each chapter that will energize your personal devotions and enable you to navigate your life with deeper conviction am i truly saved is forwarded by kosty hen you guys remember kosty hinn he's the author of god greed prosperity gospel i've had him on my podcast one of my most popular episodes ever he also was gracious enough to write a blurb for my book classic hint is awesome he wrote the forward to this book by joel webben um the book was also promoted by my friends daryl harrison and virgil walker you guys love them i know on a recent episode of the just thinking podcast so make sure that you pick up a copy today go to writeresponse.comrelatable that is rightresponse.com oh sorry rightresponseministries.com want to get that right write response ministries.com relatable rightresponseministries.com relatable in the midst of our current cancel culture and all the craziness that's going on where anyone can be canceled for the smallest offense christians need to firmly be rooted in the never ending love of god and at the end of this conversation we are going to talk with joel about what that looks like what that has looked like as he has pastored his church and helped them navigate through not just the cultural changes that are happening not just cancel culture but also the regulations that are affecting his church there in california and how he has led bravely according to scripture his congregation and making sure that he is leading them in the right response of worship to our god who is supreme over every earthly authority so make sure you go to rightresponseministries.com relatable again that's rightresponseministries.com relatable okay that is our entire preamble the moment you have all been waiting for it here again is pastor jeff durbin [Music] so what do you do with something like ii timothy 3 then that talks about in the last days how things will just be really bad i mean we've always seen lovers of self lovers of money proud arrogant abusive disobedient to parents those kind of people have always existed but what does this mean that in these in the last days there will come times of difficulty i mean obviously from my perspective i would have taken that to mean that the world is going to get worse and worse and worse um so how do you interpret that yes that's such an important question because it gets to the uh the question of like last days um um the end of the age uh the constant discussion really you see throughout the new testament the day of the lord he's coming quickly those sorts of things it's very very important and has everything to do with this discussion here um and i i i want to make sure i do this in a way that's helpful to everybody and i don't just uh just do it as sort of like pot shot sort of thing like a verse here but just sort of give an overarching thing that we can all challenge ourselves on and go study um as you read the new testament one of the one of the things the atheists will often use against us and this is this was actually demonstrated in the debate between christopher hitchens and douglas wilson at westminster atheists will have their fallback moment their chestnut argument and that's that jesus didn't know the time it was coming why well because you christians are saying that these passages about him coming quickly and all the rest all this stuff in this generation you're saying that's future to us but clearly the text says it was supposed to happen in their day so clearly he's a false prophet you guys are you guys are nuts um it's an important discussion because it is true the new testament is filled it is absolutely chocked full of passages that talk about last days um uh coming quickly every i will see him um you have the king you have his one-wing fork is in his hands um the the axes are delayed at the root of the trees uh some of you standing here will not die it will not taste death until you see the son of man coming in his kingdom uh you have passages like matthew chapter 10 jesus actually tells his disciples in matthew 10 the people who are in front of them him he says you will not finish going to the cities of israel before the son of man comes so these disciples in front of him they won't even finish going through the cities of israel before he returns in judgment this isn't the second coming this is in judgment it's a common theme in the old testament yahweh coming in judgments day of the lord concepts in the old testament is all over the old testament day of the lord is a day of judgment by the way um so when we talk about this concept in the new testament of last days and end of the age um we're not talking about the last days of human history we're talking about the last days of the expectation of the destruction of the old covenant um people the sorry i would say the the covenant breakers of the old covenant order and the the new covenant so it's old covenant new covenant themes so they were expecting the last days of the old covenants um they were expecting the end of the old covenant age um they knew they were in this transition period because the old covenant is still hanging around with its remnants but it's a defunct order it's over it was finished uh well jesus says it is finished the temple veil uh ripped in half access to god is is opened up now to the people of god and to the holy of holies is a very big deal but they're still doing sacrifices they're still performing sacrifices there's still a priest who's going in yom kippur and trying to offer sacrifices after the sacrifice of jesus this stuff is still hanging out to the degree that the writer of hebrews before the destruction of jerusalem is warning those jewish christians don't go back do not go back because he's coming quickly he's not going to delay he's about to come destroy these things which have been made so that that which has not been made um will will remain forever the these uh remnants of the old covenant order about to be destroyed they were in the they were in the the death throes of that old covenant order about to be completely destroyed judgment was coming and so we talk about in the last days that's i believe the last days of the old covenant and what's interesting is we have to think about who's being talked to here uh the apostle paul is writing to a pastor um his son in the faith and he's warning this pastor in his day that in the last days though uh will come times of difficulty for people will be um lovers of self lovers of money proud arrogant abusive disobedient to the parents and grateful and holy heartless unappeasable slanderous without self-control brutal not loving good treacherous reckless swollen with conceit lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god having the appearance of godliness but denying its power he says to timothy avoid such people for among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women burden with sins and led astray by various passions always learning and never able to arrive in a knowledge of the truth and then he names people just as janice and john breeze opposed moses so these men also oppose the truth men corrupted and mining disqualified regarding the faith but they will not get very far for their folly will be plain to all as was that of those two men so they will not get very far um as was that of those men he says you however have followed my teaching my conduct my aim in life so i would say in terms of reading these texts we have to think about audience who's writing what's the time period and we think about last days i think it's important for us to recognize that the i'm trying to make this as simple as possible the old testament tells you about the coming of the messiah the salvific elements of it he tells us about the salvation the forgiveness all the nations coming to god but it's really really clear in the old testament verse after verse after verse tells us that when messiah comes it's also going to be a time of judgment upon the covenant breakers you read that in the last book of the old testament in malachi chapter 3 and in four the promises the messiah is coming he's coming to his temple and he's going to judge the covenant breakers there's going to be a judgment upon the covenant breakers the promise actually in isaiah 65 is that he is actually going to have his servants god's servants are going to eat but they are going to starve they will drink but they will be thirsty and he's god says he will call his people by a new name so he's going to judge the covenant breakers and he is going to give his people a new name but what's interesting here is this theme is salvation and judgment old testament is like this salvation and judgment salvation to the ends of the earth judgment upon the covenant people that's the theme and as you get into the new testament that's all you see john the baptist comes in in matthew chapter 3 and he says the kingdom of god the kingdom of heaven is at hand he says his winnowing fork is in his hand so judgment isn't on it's not out there it's in his hand the axe is laid at the root of the trees and he tells those jewish leaders he says to repent and bear fruit in keeping with repentance and then jesus does the same thing throughout say matthew just take matthew he gives you matthew 10 the warning that they won't even finish going through the cities of israel before he returns in judgment matthew 16 that some of them standing there wouldn't die until they saw the the kingdom come um you have of course matthew 23 uh the promises of judgment given to them even by way of um of of a picture and story he says uh well so there's a vineyard owner and um he keeps sending people to the vineyard and uh you know as he keeps sending people to the vineyard you know they beat one they stone one and he says okay well i'll send my son to the vineyard to get the fruit of the vineyard he says and then he sends his son and they see the sun and they say oh look here's the air let's let's destroy him and let's take his inheritance and jesus tells the jewish leadership of his day in jerusalem he says um what do you think the owner of the vineyard is going to do when he finds out what they've done to his son and they go oh he'll he'll destroy those miserable wretches and he'll give it out to people who who will bear who'll give him the fruit of it and he goes yeah that's you and he says the stone the builder is rejected has become the chief cornerstone and he tells them that that's going to be you you're going to be destroyed and then he gives the parable of the wedding invitation he says he asked the people who were supposed to come and they don't want to come and so then he says okay well then you start inviting everybody and what's interesting there is he gives a warning about judgments he says he sends his armies the king sends his armies and destroys their city so there's this promise of judgment on the covenant breakers in the old testament you see the theme for the new and the expectation is the last days or the coming quickly of the lord jesus this coming judgment is going to happen in their time in their generations they understood they were on the on at the edge of the destruction of that old covenant order and the end of the old covenant age and so all of these promises throughout the new testament can they just give you a couple here real fast allen go for it okay sorry i know i'm trying to give you guys okay i do have a i have a couple questions but i'll go ahead and say what you're gonna say because you might just answer my question okay so in terms of the things we have to contend with um i'm a christian apologist and a philosopher a christian philosopher i think it's important for us to be able to defend our faith and we have to be aware of what people are saying about jesus about the bible and we need to come back with um meaningful true biblical responses and this whole discussion of last days end of the age coming quickly all those those things that are throughout we have to have an answer that is meaningful and coherent and faithful to the text so just a couple things uh just as some examples matthew uh so matthew 3 2 the kingdom of heaven is at hand um matthew 3 7 who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come um the axes are laid at the root of the trees matthew 3 10. his winning fork is in his hand matthew 3 12. the kingdom of heaven is in hand matthew 10 7. uh again matthew um 10 23 you won't finish going through the cities of israel before this until the son of man comes matthew 12 23 the age about to come uh number of matthew 16 27 the son of man is about to come in the glory of his father with his angels and he will recompense every man according to his deeds there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom 16 28. um and as you go throughout i'm going to try to get some other books here some other texts and a new testament to give you an idea here acts 2 16 through 17. this is the famous uh sermon or preaching of of of peter at pentecost acts 2 16-17 i think this answers the question of last days this is what was spoken of through the prophet joel and it shall be in the last days this is important everybody knows this text this is pentecost so this is a very big deal as peter's preaching and everyone's seeing all of the tongues and these miraculous gifts they're speaking in other languages to the people they're understanding them in their own language it's a pretty amazing thing the spirit of god's poured out what peter does is he says this no these people aren't drunk like you think this is that which joel spoke about and in joel joel says in the last days i'll pour out my spirit he says your sons and your daughters or daughters will prophesy your old men will dream dreams and he says until what judgment so it's supposed to be they were supposed to see in joel 2 the last day's context was going to be this time of miraculous events and then judgment upon whom the covenant breakers what the inspired apostle peter says is what they're seeing is what joel said this is what joel said so joel's talking about the last days before the coming of judgment on the covenant breakers and the inspired apostle says this is that this is what joel was talking about um and you can keep going uh uh there let's see let's see um as you go through the new testament there's i mean there's over 100 verses um romans 16 20 the god of peace will crush satan it will soon crush satan under your feet um it says um uh okay here we go right here first corinthians 10 11 now paul says these things the examples from the old testament were written for our instruction he's talking to first century christians upon whom the end of the ages has have come so he says here's an example into the first century corinthians he says these examples are written for us who the first century corinthians he says upon whom the end of the ages has come so the apostle paul believed at the end of the age had come upon those first century christians um and um you can continue on but i think some popular ones would be for example from the book of res revelation and i'll just read them to you just quickly um to show his bond servants the things which must shortly take place revelation 1 1 the time is near revelation 1 3. nevertheless what you have hold fast until i come revelation 2 25. um i'm coming quickly revelation 3 11. um he says behold i'm coming quickly revelation 22 12. and um uh yes i'm coming quickly revelation 22 20. and this one do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book what book the book of revelation for the time is near revelation 22 10. real quick daniel 8 there's a prophecy where daniel is told to seal up the words of the vision for the time is a little far off we were talking a matter of hundreds of years so daniel gets a vision and he's told seal up the vision for it's it's for a long time from now but it was you know hundreds of years in revelation john said john's told don't seal the words of the prophecy of this book it says for the time is near so in terms of how god tells time we can see that there are time indicators in the new testament that demonstrate that there is an impending looming judgment a quick judgment end of the age context they were in the last days of something and i think we need to take those seriously [Music] okay i gotta interrupt i'm really sorry i know that you guys are probably on the edge of your seat listening to that conversation as everyone else is when they listen to jeff durbin because he is just so fascinating and talking about these biblical subjects but i've got to interject to tell you guys about gabby insurance so all of us especially right now are looking for ways to save money what is the last time you looked at how much you're spending every month on something like car insurance or homeowners insurance now is the time to check gabby that's g-a-b-i and see 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that revolution was actually written like in 96 a.d some people say that it was written around like 68 a.d so you have to believe that it wasn't written you have to reject what some people say the evidence is that revelation was written after the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d to say that it was talking about the destruction of the temple and nero and all of that correct so yeah yeah there's there's an important element here in terms of um the truth there the truth there are post millennials that disagree on interpretation on the interpretation of revelation who knew christians would disagree and argue um there are approximately those who do disagree historically i mean christians have a variety of different understandings different sections of the book of revelation or the whole thing uh in total but um there are post-millennialists who do have different perspectives of how do you work out some of the details in the book of revelation some would say in early dating is not absolutely necessary and it doesn't do any damage to post-millennialism as a as a total overarching perspective um but yes my my own perspective is that the external and internal evidence that the book of revelation was written before the fall of jerusalem i think is overwhelming and i was in bible college and we were taught about the dating of the book of revelation i was taught that it was around 96 a.d during domitian's reign and persecution which by the way was actually a pretty limited persecution at that time um it wasn't as dramatic as the persecution that was pre-70 a.d um historically actually this was the thing that startled me historically you can see that some of the giants and some of the greatest scholars in history all dated the book of revelation pre-70 a.d um the the dating it during domitian's reign in 96 a.d is based upon uh really a single ambiguous as a statement written in greek it's written in ambiguous greek well i'd say written in greek in an ambiguous way and it's not it's not actually overly clear which is why christians in history have actually disagreed on that dating because it's based on a statement from um one early disciple of the apostle john um or a pot disciple of a disciple of the apostle john um and so we have to actually go to well okay let's look at the text and what does it say well in terms of internal dating i'll just just i don't want to we probably want to spend a million years on this but in terms of internal dating of the book of revelation um john is told a lot of things related to the soon coming judgment again i'm coming quickly behold i'm coming quickly i'm coming quickly things which must shortly take place revelation 22 6 every eye will see him even those who pierced him um and so you have those those things in terms of time indicators but internally the apostle john and this is what rc sproul said he said this is one of the most devastating things in terms of internal evidence of the early dating of the book of revelation the apostle john is told to go measure the temple which apparently is still standing in his day and so that's an internal internal dating but and you look at the external evidence i think it's it's it's pretty overwhelming you have examples in history as you look at scattered evidence throughout history and everybody could do this and try to support their view for whatever i think you look at the mass and overwhelming internal of external evidence um church fathers have argued that um john wrote revelation and got the revelation of jesus christ after being boiled in a pot of oil by nero nero the neuronic persecution of christians had had been in full effect um about this time during the 60s of the first century um the of course nero was um was a beast he was referred to as a beast nero was a disgusting disgraceful despicable man caligula really got that emperor worship cult going in terms of the temples you can go worship at and worship the emperor uh the emperor is god but nero he he turned it up big time and uh nero demanded worship and nero um was a part of that persecution of the christians not just by decree but he was actually involved himself this will get kind of graphic but i think it's important to understand his beastly nature nero would have christians rounded up in the streets and brought to his his garden parties uh they would tie them uh to a stake uh wrap them in pitch and they would light them on fire and they would use these burning christians um as roman candles to light up his garden parties and he would ride his chariot through these christians yeah there's been even examples of him um uh getting christians um tying them to a stake and then covering himself in the skins of animals and trying to eat them he was a disgusting man he he kicked his pregnant wife to death he castrated and married like a ten-year-old boy he was a vile vile man and um nero was responsible in many ways for this intense persecution so that during his reign peter's killed paul's killed this is interesting the only apostle that survived to the destruction of jerusalem and saw that judgment come was the apostle john and is it an interesting that at the end of the uh the gospel according to john peter's kind of ticked because jesus tells them you know when you're all people are going to take you where you don't want to go and essentially telling him he's going to be martyred and then peter's response is he looks over at john and he goes what about him and jesus says if i will that he remain till i come what is that to you you follow me and john was actually the only person that survived that that whole great tribulation and destruction of jerusalem in terms of the apostles that saw that was able to see all of that but history tells us that john um actually was boiled in a pot of oil by nero he didn't die which freaked nero out because nero was a very superstitious man yeah and freaked nero out so nero sent john to exile to pat moss which is where john wrote revelation um so and there's a number of other external evidences in terms of timing and the book of revelation but there's internal as well but yes i think that you can read the book of revelation as something written pre-7080 and i think it could be demonstrated clearly if people wanted more on this in a very historical very scholarly work read the book before jerusalem fell by dr kenneth gentry it's it's pretty amazing and it's actually i don't i don't always say that i recommend really scholarly resources just generally because they get people just get weighed down and this is just too much too heavy for me but gentry writes it in such a fun way it's very scholarly in such a really fun and interesting way i mean i was like it was like two in the morning i was in my kitchen reading it um and it's a scholarly work yeah so for the people who are looking around obviously we go to scripture for our interpretation of or our understanding of what the end times is not just what's going on around us but of course it is very tempting to look at what's going on around us and yes we know there have been very bad times in history but i think for a lot of christians this seems maybe more dire than ever we see america as the kind of the last beacon of liberty and we're just wondering okay if christians are persecuted here if it's not safe for christians to speak up here then we don't have we don't have another refuge and things are just going to get terrible and worse and worse and worse because we have no hope of you know another nation where you have free speech and freedom of religion and things like that people see the the what seems like the ushering in of of christian persecution and i think are thinking okay well this is an indication that these are the last days because it's about to get worse than it ever has been before what would you say to those people that are like how can you possibly think that things are getting better and better when things are clearly so bad right now yeah that's such a great question it's so important because it comes down to what you just said like we need to believe what the word of god says not what our experience is not what our inner monologue is and by the way this goes across the board like i mean even if we disagree on eschatology i think all of us need to recognize how important this is because it is the healing that we need in terms of people who struggle with loneliness and depression and fear of the future all those things they'd say don't believe the experience don't believe the circumstances don't believe the honor monologue god's word is sure god's word is true it's not just an eschatology question this is deep i'm a pastor this is a deeply pastoral issue it goes way beyond the category of eschatology and goes down to our deeply intimate relationship with god what will we believe our circumstances the moment that's in front of us our inner monologue what voice will we listen to it's this is the most critical question and it goes into so many areas but in this question when people say well look how bad things are now look how awful things are right now my answer is uh well i'd start i start this way um in history you realize that almost every generation of christians has had a moment where they've thought exactly that i would say things like we have to grapple with the fact that 200 300 years ago christians were pointing to these very same passages or 200 years ago people the same pastors and they were saying see that's our time that's us people were pulling passages from say revelation or other books and they were saying oh this thing that resembles the locomotive or this resembles like this thing and they were trying to find from their day examples of of of proof of that this is the last days we're truly in the last days now he's really coming quickly now um and so i would say that you know just know that this has been a pattern for christians through history who have had a futurist perspective they always think that their day is the last day and they always their moment is the worst they've ever seen well what i would say to try to comfort christians in this area is please think about this please think about this we follow um a man who was a palestinian jew crucified as a common criminal um under uh roman rule he was resurrected the third day he stood in front of very confused disciples that weren't even clear an understanding of what the heck was going on so he had to even chastise these disciples in the rose to him wrote to emmaus but they're like a bunch of sad saps walking on the road and like we thought he's the messiah he's not the messiah and jesus is like slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken and then he takes him through the whole old testament it's like here this is all about me so even they're like wait what what's going on and then jesus stands before a very limited crowd of disciples at that point and what he does is he before he ascends in matthew 28 he says to them all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me we're going to stop for a second and think about this uh he has a small band of followers here in front of him and he says all the authority not just in the spiritual realm heaven but here on earth during roman rule like no caesar's got he's got all the authority and this this palestinian jew just murdered by the romans uh and of course raised again has the audacity to say that all the authority in heaven and on earth has been past tense given to me uh that's that kingdom mindset i think that's important for us to grapple with in terms of did jesus believe that he brought the kingdom did he believe that he had that messianic uh uh throne and and the kingship um i think it's important because he says that all of it's his he's not waiting for the authority it's all mine right now he says go therefore because it's all mine and he says you know win the nations and baptize them teach them to obey all that i've commanded you um that's how jesus departs and there's a small band of followers there before jesus they had to be like looking up going uh what yeah like uh like this world is ginormous and has complexities of the roman empire and paganism and all this evil and i was trying to remind people that in many ways you could look at it this way we started 2 000 years ago with 11 very confused disciples 11 because we lost one judas was a devil right right so 11 very confused disciples and christians in the 21st century today will be on radio programs streaming live globally around the world talking about the supremacy of jesus christ over all things with christians who love and worship the lord god of israel because of jesus on all over the planet and we'll be saying things are just so bad they're just getting so terrible it's so awful it's like we started with 11 disciples now we have believers all over this planet who bow the need to jesus christ um as savior and as lord and yes we have tough things in front of us and i want to say this there's a huge misconception a massive misconception and it's always used as an argument and it's a very poor one people say well you know if post millennialism is true um how can you say things are getting better and better and better when look at the world around us i would say well no jesus said that the kingdom of god was like a mustard seed that becomes a tree so it his perspective of the kingdom was not that the kingdom drops out of the sky like an army but that the kingdom grows from this very small seed into a large tree that ultimately is bigger than a man and has fruit and all the rest the birds of the air nest in its branches and it's like leaven in a lump of dough jesus is the one that said it was going to be small to large growth he's the one that said that daniel's the one that said that in daniel 2. and so we should expect in this fallen world as jesus brings his salvific rule and reign globally through the proclamation of the gospel and the transformation of people's lives we should anticipate of course in this fallen world there is difficulty and there is trial and there is moments of victory and there are moments of failure from our perspective god's in total control of that but i always want to just sort of like i want to just push my brothers and sisters and say stop and think about what you're saying you can preach the gospel right now literally globally live by pushing a button on this silly device and you can tell the world about jesus and people come to christ hearing the gospel through this little device even we get word all the time about people from other countries that watch our content and come to know jesus christ there's people on other continents that have heard our content uh years ago came to christ and they're now pastors and foreign countries right um when someone says it's getting worse and worse i want to say i you should probably go back to the first century and live there for a bit and tell me how we're right so obviously like you said we are have we have more and more believers but at the same time there seems to be a strong maybe not stronger than ever but stronger than we've seen in our lifetimes a centralized aversion to christianity and allowing christians to have the ability to do what you do to be able to spread the gospel globally through a device so would you say that even if we do go through a time of severe persecution even here in america where voices are stifled and de-platformed and canceled and all of those things would you just say that is just kind of that's obviously not an indication according to you of anything contrary to the post-millennialist view but simply that we are going through a stage in human history that all that christians throughout time have always gone through of persecution but still the gospel is advancing and the kingdom is growing is that what you would argue that even if we are facing a sort of tribulation to come or a sort of trial and persecution to come that still the gospel is being spread and the kingdom is advancing yes and so i'll do the answer to that question in in two ways one my way of just giving a direct answer and then uh two given you why i believe it in terms of like well what are you hanging on to even think that um yes i think that one of the problems is that we tend as christians particularly in the west in the united states we tend to think about america as as as the as the the symbol of victory and like the sign how we're doing yeah christianity wise so when america does poorly we think oh the end is near and it's we've lost all hope sort of a thing and it's like why do we think about ourselves in this way um there's nothing in scripture that tells us that america is going to make it to the end yeah it's because we're the last place that we're we're the last place that has constitutionalized this idea of an inalienable right of free speech and we're just wondering okay well if you can't speak freely here i mean of course you still share the gospel but where can you go without fear of punishment i think that's why there's uh there's a fear of america being kind of the last stand i know i know i don't know so don't get me wrong i'm very patriotic i've been loving you're making a great point in terms of like but still it's they're still like oh my gosh what's happened to us well ali i would just say like this is kind of i think an indictment upon us in many ways when you look at america and our origins you're going to start further back than 1776 you've got to look at covenanters and the colonies and all that took place to get us to this place you had very faithful colonies that you know had stayed they even had state churches they're making treaties in the name of the triune god of the bible like the christian worldview was in the atmosphere so the benefits of the united states of america currently are from the christian world view the freedom of speech freedom of religion the freedom to to own arms to protect your family uh the right against uh warrantless search and seizure the ability to not have to um self-incriminate that's all from scripture like it's literally from the bible and but people go okay man we're losing this i would say where's our salt and lights those christians that gave this to us they were the ones that were courageous and fought and labored and spoke and they spoke prophetically let's be honest goodness gracious over the last couple of generations the last well let's say just the last generation i believe that that what's happening around us is an indictment upon the church i do i think it's an indictment upon the church we've got we've got great godly men in the pulpit who are teaching and are courageous you've got men like john macarthur you've got giants of the faith yes but but largely largely we've been afraid to cause any trouble we want to just be loved by everybody we're not courageous so we're not salty and we're not light to the culture around us and i want to say it's historic judgments i believe that so give an example in psalm 2 it says to the the father says to the son ask of me and i'll give you the nations for your inheritance the very ends of the earth for your possession um now i don't think jesus forgot to ask so i believe the father gave it to jesus and that's where we're at now with the great commission or getting all the nations but the father actually says to the son sorry to the kings of the earth he says be wise o kings he says obey the son or kiss the son lest you perish and so i think there are historical judgments in history that we should anticipate as people are unfaithful to the sun as they don't yield to his authority in his kingship they disobey his law they they live in injustice we should anticipate that nation receiving historical judgments we can't live in sin as a nation and not have god respond because the goal of the kingdom isaiah 42 this is one of the goals not the goal of one of them isaiah 42 it says that the servant is coming that's messiah and it talks about him being this humble servant he's you know bruised reed he will not break in a faintly burning wick he will not quench it says he will bring forth justice on the earth he will not grow faint or weary until he has done it and the coastlands are waiting for his law that's the promise of the messiah and his coming justice and his righteousness and rule now i believe jesus is in the process of that now and i believe as a nation disobeys god especially a nation alley like ours my goodness we've got all of these giants behind us who handed us all these blessings you've got people again in states that would acknowledge the triune god of the bible in their treaties and they acknowledge the lordship of jesus christ now we're a nation it doesn't like people say like you know we need justice police justice i'm like okay what's it look like um like do you even know why we have the the the the amendment against warrantless searches and seizures do you know why we have the right to remain silent people don't even know why you have that and the answer is oh because in these verses here because these scriptures this is god's justice people are crying out for justice but they don't want god's justice on god's justice and so because of that i believe we see in history as the gospel goes forth it penetrates it impacts there is the duty of faithfulness and obedience to the son who is ruling and reigning now and we should anticipate historical judgments upon any nation that doesn't obey the son but the ultimate place that history is going this is a scatter genesis 49 10 shiloh is coming and to him shall be the obedience of the nations it's interesting because peter sorry paul uses that language in romans 1 and 16 and he says that the goal is uh to bring the nations to god to the obedience of faith among all the nations he says it at the first chapter and last chapter of romans his explanation of the gospel that the goal is the obedience of the nations well that's genesis 49 10 the obedience of the nations how about the promise to abraham abraham your descendants are going to be as numerous as the stars so much for a small victorious minority in history numerous as the stars that's a heck of a lot of stars like the sand on the seashore that's a lot of descendants it doesn't sound like that doesn't sound like um a defeat in history to me in terms of a small remnant in all of history that sounds like a lot but then you get on to isaiah chapter 2 and the promise is that the lord is going to draw the nations they're going to stream up to god's mountain which is weird because water streams down but it says that they stream up to the mountain of god and that's um there's going to be salvation and the law the torah is going to go forth from zion from the people of god so the nations are coming to god the law is going to go forth from the people of god then you have isaiah 9. one is coming who's the son and the child and his name should be called wonderful and counselor the mighty god the father of eternity and it says of the increase this is interesting of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end so his government and his peace there'll be an increase and there'll be no end on the throne of david to establish it with justice and righteousness forevermore and the amazing thing is when you say and everyone says and i even have moments where you see things getting awful and you're like how how's this ever going to get overcome the answer from isaiah 9 6-7 is this the zeal of the lord of hosts will accomplish this then isaiah 42 is that passage about the the justice being established in the earth and he's not going to go faint or weary until he does it psalm 2 the nations are given to jesus the kings are warned you better obey the son or you're going to perish psalm 22 is the famous passion of the messiah passage where his hands and his feet are pierced he's pierced and his heart's like wax melted within them they surround him like dogs they mock him they divide his garments among them and cast lots for his clothing in the very same passage of the passion of the messiah as you keep singing the song it says and all the families of the earth will return to worship the lord so the impact of the passion is that all the families of the earth return to worship the lord psalm 72 says he shall have dominion from sea to sea from the river to the ends of the earth uh psalm 110 1 um um the lord said unto my lord sit in my right hand and jesus is by the way seated there until i make all your enemies a footstool for your feet that's messianic new testament that's current daniel chapter seven he's looking in the night visions and it's interesting it says he sees one like a son of man coming on the clouds of heaven by the way cloud comings in the old testament are judgment comings um and it says and he comes up to the ancient of days and was presented before him and it says to him jesus was given dominion kingdom and glory that all the peoples should serve him people are very tribe tongue people and nation are going to serve him it says his dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed that's daniel 7. and we could just keep going and going and going all these passages about victory so if you ever say to me how are you believing this with things as tough as they are right now in the moment i would say because the promise is he shall have dominion and he is winning the world all the families are going to return and so my duty is to be faithful to preach the gospel to win the nation to christ the nations to christ and and i can't look at the current circumstances and say well i guess i guess um i guess we're losing i guess i guess he's not going to have victory because god does work throughout history through um a seed to tree picture and you can kind of see through the description of all of that how your eschatology determines how you live your life and the things you care about now obviously as you've said as i've said pre-millennialist post-millennialists can both be obedient and both be compelled to be obedient and faithful christians even if they're coming from a different kind of perspective on certain things however as far as things like the so-called culture wars as far as things like affecting what laws are implemented you do see a tendency sometimes among pre-millennialists not me but some to say well that doesn't really matter those things don't really matter if like you said the world is just going to hell in a hand basket then all i have to do is kind of hide away and wait for jesus to come back but if you do believe that you are advancing god's kingdom here and that his authority is increasing and that you are playing a part in that then you are going to try to affect what's called you know the the public sector and so you definitely see how eschatology is is practical and it affects what you do now someone like me or someone like john mcarthur you know maybe you would say that this is inconsistent with our eschatology i obviously care about the culture wars because i see how it affects you know my children and how it affects future generations and i would say john mcarthur does too maybe not in the the same way but you know pre-millennialists do care about what's going on in the political world too but you know i don't know i guess our motivation is just different one of obedience and not necessarily one that the post millennialist has but has but i do kind of see some inconsistency there for sure what we use for example like i i kind of feel like your eschatology could be used by social justice advocates to say we are trying to make god's kingdom that we see as god's kingdom totally equal equitable whatever here on earth because that's what we are called to do whereas someone like john macarthur would say that is why post-millennialism is wrong because it falsely it falsely tries to bring god's kingdom here on earth when that's not what we're called to do and he would lump post-millennialism maybe into kind of a social justice theology which is obviously not something that you hold to does that make sense right yeah yeah and historically there there you can't you can't make any real genuine meaningful theological connection between uh say the social justice justice movement everyday or liberal social justice movie movements and theologies of the past to a biblical historical post-millennialism right because what we would say is is that the the gospel is the transforming force in the world yeah people's hearts and minds have to be changed by the gospel they have to repent and bow the need of jesus and trust in jesus christ so the solution that the transformation of the world happens as people are saved yeah so the gospel that's up front but it's actually clear in scripture that as the nations come to god as people are saved that now that law his law his standards his justice is with is on their hearts yeah they desire yeah so it's actually it's where jesus took us he says all authority is mine heaven and earth he says goat and he says uh disciple teach and disciple the nations baptize them and he says teach them to obey all that i've commanded you so it starts the it starts with conversion yeah and then turns into and now training in righteousness and so we're trying to follow that perspective but isn't it it's actually powerful thought people today um who are crying out even as uh silly evangelicals that are just acting like they have no understanding whatsoever in terms of like uh righteous standards of justice where do we get them and uh history of the church all this is wrapped up and there's just such such confusion when evangelicals even today squishy evangelicals are saying social justice social justice ask them what do you mean by that yeah like what's your standard justice like what do you mean where are they getting where are they getting their standards of justice they're getting them from the world yeah they're getting they're getting them from neo-marxists they're getting them from um classical marxists they're getting them from uh people who are socialists they're not getting they're they're not post-millennialists they're not trying to bring kingdom in through biblical standards of justice they're trying to bring this weird version of kingdom which doesn't even have christ as ruling ultimately in with uh ungodly and um unbelieving uh standards of justice they're not even going to the bible yes but here's what's powerful we just you and i love this country and we're both fighting regardless of eschatology we're lying faithfulness of jesus love for my neighbor demands i say something right now but we're living in a country with all the benefits of the christian worldview it is interesting that the dominant eschatology in america early on was post-millennialism that the puritans were post-millennial my friend doug likes to say um there's two reasons that i'm a post-millennialist he says one uh it's a lot of fun and two jonathan ed believed it um so some of the giants of the faith in history historically were post-millennialists but i think it's powerful uh in terms of like look look at culture and society when you had puritans who were post-millennial in their perspective what did they do they established communities where they saw jesus lordship from the bottom to the top when they pointed to when they were issues of justice they said well what does god say and they would point to his law now we're not saying these are perfect people that did everything right we're just saying like in in practice their understanding was jesus is lord over all and our duty is to win the world to christ and if we have questions about justice we point to what god's word says um and so they built a community a culture a society that saw god's revelation as supreme this is the standard and then what what did we all get well we all got the benefits of that because the impact of the puritans upon um the colonies and the west gave us the nation that we have today even if people like benjamin franklin weren't christians they still were beneficiaries of the christian worldview and they accepted it um that's that's life and labor of faithful christians before many of them post-millennial and it's interesting to note that the society they built was a society that said god's word is the ultimate standard they weren't just saying like the goal is to bring the kingdom in through these standards of justice no these are people like edwards who who was you ever hear of the great awakening it was like it was all the gospel and repentance and faith the goals bring them to jesus and then once they're saved you say and this is the standard god's word that's post-millennialism yes social justice people christians professing christians are working from the outside in they believe that first you have to whatever it is and still these anti-racism policies and then that will eventually change people's heart whereas the christian says it starts with the regeneration of the heart and that is then how we affect societies and laws that would be the distinction correct one of them that's exactly right one of that's probably the most important one so just the the final question when jesus is coming in riding on the horse with the tattoo and the sword and all of that do you believe that that is coming soon um ask that again so that you the the you're talking about jesus is coming back dude when do you believe that that's gonna happen or am i a misunderstanding go into revelation okay so here we go i was like we're gonna be for another hour no no no no just just quick quick answer i believe that we're in the infancy of the church um okay wow i believe i believe we're in the infancy of the church i think we've got a long way to go if we had a bunch of time just to go through the text of the old testament and the new testament that talk about the kingdom of the messiah and what it's going to look like and it's very by the way it's it's very earthly like there's earthy promises to this kingdom and spiritual it's but it's comprehensive and and beautiful and powerful and if we're to take paul at his timeline all enemies are under the feet of jesus and then death will be destroyed i look around today and i say we've got a lot of victory but there's a heck of a lot of enemies and these enemies need to be converted they need to come to christ or put under the feet of jesus so i look around the world today i say based upon what we see in scripture about the the victory of the messiah and his kingdom in the world and the justice and the righteousness and peace that comes from that salvific reign i say i think we have a long way to go can god perform miracles and change things quickly absolutely but i think it's better to look at us as if we're in the infancy of the church we've got a long way to go we've got a lot to learn and i think we've got a lot of courage that we need to to bolster up and to have to actually go out and to bring the gospel i think we have a long way to go personally um but i'd be happy i'd be so happy if it was uh you know a major revival and transformation and it was a hundred years from now god is sovereign he can do that but i think we're in the infancy of the church wow okay well i have a lot more questions for you i could talk to you for a really long time but i really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me for this hour and a half i know people are gonna get a lot from it so thank you absolutely thank you ally [Music] okay so i know that you guys enjoyed that two-part series with pastor jeff durbin if you've got questions if you've got comments if you uh just have something to say you can either reach out to jeff durbin you can reach out to me and ask your questions a lot of people have shared this on your story and you've been telling me just how this conversation made you think and that is awesome any conversation that helps us think more critically and biblically i count as a win something that is edifying for the body of christ speaking of edifying the body of christ i want to introduce pastor joel webben who um i had a very uh edifying encouraging conversation with about how churches how christians can navigate navigate the craziness that's going on in our culture particularly in relation to governments trying to shut down churches who are exercising their first amendment right of gathering together and worshiping god i got a lot of good wisdom and insight out of our conversation and i'm so excited for you to listen to it so here is pastor joel webben joel thanks so much for being here yeah glad to be here can you tell everyone who you are and what you do sure my name is joel webben i'm a local pastor of a church in san diego california and also the president of a ministry called right response ministries and what does right response ministries do um basically we we do podcasts articles uh we host sermons sermon clips we do interviews things like that so uh similar to like um well jeff durbin a guest that you had on recently i think you had again today and so um similar to like apology of church slash apologia studios or like paul maskel and jared longshore with uh founders ministry um trying to just be a blessing to the body of christ at large so you are kind of equipping christians to be able to have the right response to a lot of the craziness that's going on in the world right now cultural changes social changes political changes things like that is that is that true a good description absolutely that we so respond saying so two words right response response comes from the fact that we're reformed so we we believe at the end of the day we love because god first loved us first john 4 19 and so we we believe that god is the great initiator and that all we ever do as mankind simply respond to what god has done and continues to do for us through the personal work of jesus christ and so we're not trying to elicit an emotional response or love or salvation from god but rather he initiates we're responding to him and then the word right is simply kind of a tipping of the hat to the regular principle of worship so saying that not only is man required to respond but god actually regulates by the agency of his word the manner in which we respond so we you know when we worship when we pray uh all of the christian life our obedience is something that god regulates it's not just a blank canvas for our own creative freedom as uh sometimes christians tend to think and so we're saying that there is a man's responsibility is to respond and there is a right response and it's not just uh we put too many things i think in the church today into the subjective category right and i think there's more that's objective uh regulated by god's word than we're sometimes willing to admit now a lot of people in your part of the country are especially allergic it seems like to objectivity especially when it comes to theological objectivity how is your church navigating the crazy cultural waters that we've lived in for a long time but they seem to be especially turbulent right now on top of some of the state's restrictions of how churches are able to behave and and worship right now yeah great question so uh we were privileged to have our first uh illegal church service on april 26 uh that sunday and so at the time in california the emperor knew some um his benevolent majesty um was not allowing for churches to gather in any capacity um including for a time we weren't even able to uh do a car service and then eventually that was allowed because it was categorized as technology so in the same way you could live stream because you're using technology well car constitutes as a piece of technological you know equipment and so you could do a service like that but for a while we couldn't even do the cars and then for us we uh you know we're a smaller church we don't have our own building and so we have rented a school historically and so we weren't able to meet in the school of course and uh and so we didn't have a parking lot so what we did was an outdoor service april 26th and uh it was an illegal church service we had about two-thirds of our church come out um but it was difficult at the time because a lot of pastors really nationwide including guys that we love and highly highly respect in the reformed you know um christian camp we're still impression that you know as as you're fully aware you know romans 13 romans 13 love your neighbor love your neighbor and we really kind of truncated you know the second greatest commandment of loving our neighbor to you know that we're our neighbor is is nothing more than a body right so we just love their physical health forgetting i think we're neglecting at least that our our our neighbor also has a soul and uh and so you know i think loving our neighbor of course we're called to love our neighbor but i think there's it's it's not so simplistic our neighbor and and so we were working through that factor we were working through uh what does it mean to actually obey romans 13 um you know the highest civil magistrate in our land is not a human official by design and and rightfully so but rather a document and that protects our freedom of worship and the right to peaceably assemble and and so um so we work through that as elders in our church and um it was tough you know because there's so many guys that we've previously looked to that took initially a different stance and some of those guys have come around now and we're very grateful for that so the first thing that we did was we shut down for about four weeks and just trying to um because we didn't know right so big on like church is essential but when we say that church is essential we're not saying that it's essential under every single circumstance right so if here san diego said there's a tsunami it was let's say saturday evening we get word that there's a tsunami coming to the city of san diego and it's going to land at 10 a.m sunday morning if i tell my congregation hey church is essential we're going to gather and if this tsunami comes and wipes us all out so be it that's the sovereign that's foolish right head for the hills let's let's get out of the danger zone and and we'll assemble and have church next week maybe in somebody's backyard or whatever we got to do we say church is essential we're not saying under any circumstances but what we are saying is that church is just as essential and i would argue more but just as essential as anything else because in the tsunami hypothetical scenario everything is close grocery stores closed abortion clinics right certainly are closed you know weed dispensaries are closed and so all we're saying is that if anything else is being deemed as essential then certainly the church should be included and so what we did was we worked really hard to make sure that our sunday morning gatherings were as safe and i would argue safer than going to the grocery store and so therefore the only question for us theologically was well what did jesus say in the wilderness when he's tempted by satan he said that man shall not live by physical bread alone but every word that proceeds from the mouth of god and then the question became well we have our bibles we can do our personal you know quiet time devotions at home we have the word of god monday through saturday but the question became but is there a unique or a specific word that proceeds from the mouth of god in the gathered assembly on the lord's day and we believe that biblically there is and that we live by that we know so we live by the word of god in our private uh devotions um but we also live by the word which proceeds from the mouth of god that comes in that corporate lord's day gathering right of christ and and and so we were like man we need this to live in the same way we need to go to the grocery store we need this so if we can do this in a way that is is prudent and just as safe as a grocery store biblically we can't argue that it's any less essential than a grocery store so we're going to do it and we believe that that was submitting to the highest authority in our land namely the constitution and if a lesser civil magister like a governor or a mayor um is disagreeing with the constitution then they're actually not obeying romans 13 romans 13 was not just given to the church it was given also to lesser civil magistrates and so gavin newsom was in rebellion to the word of god and in rebellion to his civil magistrate and so we were actually rebelling against a rebel in submission to the highest civil magistrate in our land um and ultimately a submission to god and that was our view from um within about two weeks so the first couple weeks it's like you know we were told everybody was gonna die you know 2.1 million whatever it was as soon as we realized i don't know if that's quite accurate uh then then we arrived at this conclusion right and i have made a very similar argument that thankfully in the united states at least for now the law of the land is the constitution and it doesn't bind its people it binds our magistrates it it binds the government it says what the government can and cannot do it is gavin newsom for example who is bound by the restrictions of the constitution not the citizen obviously we have laws that are supposed to be in accordance to the constitution that we then have to obey but you articulated that really well what do you say then to the as you said the respectable christian leaders across the country who have criticized what churches like yours have done or john macarthurs have done who have said you know what you're not trying hard enough to obey our earthly authorities as romans 13 tells us to do there are different you know there are a lot of different avenues they would say that you can explore you can do smaller house churches you can continue to meet virtually whatever they would argue that someone like you or john macarthur you're not trying hard enough to submit to earthly authorities according to romans 13 what do you say to those pastors and leaders great question so um i i get the sentiment and certainly i've heard that from multiple pastors you're not trying hard enough to be in submission to the civil magistrate and i think um well i feel quite strongly about this but i think what i would say is that the reason why you don't see us as as really striving to be in submission to the civil magistrate is because uh you are under the impression that that god has allowed for um a much greater degree of liberty for his church and the means by which it gathers then then the bible actually says so i i think that the part of the problem in all this and the reason why i think many churches um really really struggled and didn't necessarily come to the right conclusions and came later or still haven't come to the right conclusion in in my assessment of the way that i would interpret scripture i think is because the church in america has uh historically had um pretty poor ecclesiology right so it's not it's not like covered 19 came on the scene and then all of a sudden you know we got bad theology we respond as the church poorly uh to the to the restrictions that came due to cover 19 because we we already had poor ecclesiology churches churches didn't start live streaming their services you know four months ago right i mean they've been doing this for uh quite a while and so i think because of a bad understanding of the lord's day gathering and i think a lot of people at the end of the day they're like what you know even devout christians what i need is a sound doctrine and that comes from faithful teaching and i've got you know i've got at my disposal ligonier and desire grace to you founders you know all these guys and uh but the the reality is i i don't think and so i've written a little bit on this but i wrote a piece really um trying to highlight that number one church is essential but number two and i think it's got to be both church is also unique there is something unique that happens when the people of god in local assemblies gather together on the lord's day in order to administer the ordinary means of grace which if i could sum that up would be uh we preach it's all word-centric bible-centered so it's we preach the word pray the word sing the word and we see the word in the sacraments or the ordinances of the lord's supper and baptism those are the only images that god has prescribed by his words we have we we see in a sense christ in baptism and uh and in the administration of the lord's supper and so we gather together for the ministering of these ordinary means of grace preaching the word uh praying the word singing the word and people say well i can sing at home but but but the bible is clear ephesians we're addressing not just god but one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs there's a horizontal element a corporate element of the saints you know we're stirring one another up to love and good works through the preaching the praying the singing and the scene and we're called to do that physically gather together on the lord's day and when that happens christ himself is present the spirit of the risen christ is actually present in a particular way and so i think people would say good reformed christians in many regards they would say well god's omnipresent i mean christ is always present by virtue of the ministry of the indwelling holy spirit so that the spirit of the risen christ is is constantly present in the life of the christian by by virtue of the indwelt spirit of god that indwells all christians and i would say a hearty yes and amen to that but i would say in addition to that like revelation chapter one and i know this is interesting because i think you and jeff durbin have been talking about eschatology and so part of this depends on on your persuasion um but revelation chapter one talks about the lamp stands the seven churches and and it talks about how each of them has a lamp stand and each of them also has an angel and um a lot of guys that i would trust and eschatology historically theologians would say uh that you know the the church itself is is the lampstand the angel is actually the minister so it's it's the preacher and what happens is that when when the lamp stand is lit as it were which i would believe is is reference to the church gathering on the lord's day now the lamp stand is lit and the minister the angel begins to speak and i would say that's the minister who is now preaching the minister in that moment is actually being held in christ's right hand and something is not only proceeding from the mouth of the minister namely the word preached but but the bible says revelation 1 says that something actually proceeds from the mouth of christ who is the son of god a sword which a word is a double edge sharper than any double-edged sword so there's a word proceeding from the mouth of christ in the gathered assembly when the lampstand is lit on the lord's day um meaning that christ is present in a particular way and so i think what what i would want to encourage some of these pastors with is go back to your ecclesiology what is the church and right we said well the church is the people of god and you're the church gathered or you're the church scattered right so sunday the church is gathered monday through saturday the church is scattered but you're always the church and i would say yes that is the church in one sense the church is all those who are adopted by the spirit saved by grace through faith in christ alone so the church is the people but the church is also the event right and so we're always well the church isn't a building well true right so you can meet outside but the church it may not be a building but it is a gathering it literally is i mean the word is ecclesia it's assembly and if the church is not assembling then there is a very in a very real sense the church is not it's ceasing to be the church the church is a gathering and when the church gathers christ who is always present by virtue of the holy spirit is now present in a unique way so church is essential and i think people say of course church is essential but i think what they really would get out is they say no just christian faith is essential so your your personal you know if church can't happen you're still just as good uh you're you're going to be just as sustained uh spiritually by your personal devotions family worship uh reading the bible singing with your family in your home those kind of things like why do you have to go to church i so i would want to argue both church is essential and and part of the reason why it's essential is because it's actually unique there are christian disciplines that occur in this setting that only occur in this setting and christ himself is present in this setting in a way that he is not present in any other setting and and god has throughout church history of 2000 years god has providentially sustained his people by the lord's day gathering and i would argue more than he has through personal devotions for instance information with tyndale and luther and guys who translated the bible until then with the vulgate and you know just the latin you know catholic roman catholic bible um for for 1500 years of church history people did not have the bible in their home they didn't have personal devotions reading the scripture they didn't have these kinds of things so how did god for 2 000 years sustain his people globally but he did it on the lord's day so i would argue as far as the christian spiritual vitality and spiritual health and being maintained and sustained by the lord in in in spiritual maturity and spiritual vitality um if we look at church history and we and we ask the question if we frame it like this and we say what has god used more to sustain his people the lord's day gathering of the saints or personal devotions monday through saturday right it's the former so i would both are essential to a healthy christian life but if i had to say which one is more essential i would say the first it's the gathering of the saints and something happens there that doesn't happen anywhere else and i think the reason why pastors were so quick to to capitulate the lack of a better word on this issue is i i think for some maybe cowardice but i think for many it's it wasn't so much i don't think they actually thought to give them the benefit of the doubt i don't think they thought they were compromising i i honestly had a clear conscience because uh their conscience was clear because their mind their mind was empty or at least anemic in terms of ecclesiology just poor ecclesiology right and i think that we take it for granted in the united states that we do have a constitution that protects our ability to freely gather it's supposed to be without fear of government intervention our brothers and sisters in christ around the world especially in the eastern part of the world they don't have that privilege and yet what do they do they risk their lives to be able to gather together knowing that it is very likely that their house church or their congregation or their assembly is going to be broken going to be broken up and so if those brothers and sisters see it as essential even at the risk that is posed to them then i think we in america while we still have this right and this privilege to freely gather i agree with you in exercising wisdom like you said looking at assessing the risk the proverbial hurricane or tsunami whatever it is we need to do everything we can to be able to exercise the privilege the right and the grace that we have to be able to gather together um can you tell everyone where they can find you yeah so uh rightresponseministries.com is a great place to start if you wanted to subscribe to our youtube channel that would be really great another great avenue is just to download our free app uh the right response ministries app and if i could say one more thing sure yeah um i think daniel chapter six is really helpful and i think christians need to really think through all the avenues of this there was a decree that came from the civil magistrate in the land at that time it said that no one could pray for 30 days and i think the people that you're referencing like christians in china you know that in in nations where there's not that freedom so they've been exercising civil disobedience for a long time um i think what american christians the objection that i've gotten from them is they say well but that's when christians are being specifically targeted and and i think what i would say well in the case of daniel chapter 6 we have an edict a decree that goes out from the king that says that no one can pray to any god not just a triune christian god but any god so this would incorporate the buddhists the muslim and it goes even further and says or petition any man so the atheist and agnostic is include it was universal it was not specifically simply targeting the the worshipers of yahweh not just daniel and israelites it targeted all people it no you can't pray to any god or petition any man and what daniel does is and and it was temporary a lot of people said you know i've gotten pushbacks it was just temporary it was temporary in the days of daniel was a 30-day ban on prayer and daniel continues to pray and not only does he continue to pray but he prays three times a day as was his custom so he's not ramping it up to just try to stick it to the man he's not trying to throw unnecessary punches but he is he's doing what he's always been accustomed to do pray three times a day with his windows open and even the windows open is not trying to stick it to the man the opening of his windows was actually again that right response that was something that god regulated in his worship because when solomon christened the temple in the old testament there was a covenant made that said that if anyone was even held captive in a far distant land if they would turn and face this temple and cry out to god god would hear their cry and answer their prayer and so daniel is praying with his windows open facing jerusalem as he's held in captivity he's not trying to just throw unnecessary punches he's not trying to be unnecessarily disobedient or rebellious but he is doing precisely what god has always commanded him to do he's following the regular principle of worship which includes praying and in daniel's case praying with the windows open and even though this was an edict that affected universally all the population not just christians and even though it was temporary only for 30 days i can just imagine the hebrews saying oh it's only 30 days surely we should submit to the civil magistrate god will honor that but daniel doesn't do that and so i think we have biblical texts for this and and we just we're just not seeing it i think it's because of what you said i think this is a muscle that the church in america has just had not had we haven't had to work this muscle and so it's atrophied it's it's it's weak and i think as time goes on i think we're going to see a lot of churches um that maybe just weren't true churches to begin with but i think we'll see a lot of other churches and hopefully more that are like sleeping giants that the lord uses and eventually churches all over you already see it happening they're saying that's enough that's enough and they're and they're rising up to the occasion and i i feel encouraged for what god's doing well that is very well said amen thank you so much for sharing this insight it was so encouraging i know a lot of people are going to be edified by it i encourage everyone to check you guys out on youtube and your website and god bless you guys and uh god bless the congregation that you're leaving there in san diego thanks ellie thank you thank you guys so much for watching and listening this was a little bit of a different episode but i hope you guys enjoyed it i hope you guys were encouraged i'm so excited about monday's episode i am talking to writer and pro-life activist samuel say he has so much insight about the things that are going on with for example black lives matter and people crying out for justice we're going to talk about what it looks like as christians to care about justice and to execute justice in a way that is biblical that honors god and puts the gospel first so make sure that you turn um make sure that you tune in to that and have an awesome weekend [Music] you

Channel: Allie Beth Stuckey

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Keywords: politics, conservative, millennial, election, trump, republican, Allie Stuckey, Allie Beth Stuckey, Allie BlazeTV, are we in the end times?, is the end near?, Allie stuckey are we in the end times?, allie stuckey youtube, allie stuckey videos, relatable with allie beth stuckey, jeff durbin are we in the end times, allie stuckey eschatology, jeff durbin eschatology, revelation tribulation, revelation america, postmillennialism revelation, revelation kingdom, millennial kingdom

Id: wwg9_giJScQ

Length: 84min 45sec (5085 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 07 2020