Is Missing Colorado Mom Suzanne Morphew’s Body Close to Being Found?

okay what's up STS nation and welcome to another episode of surviving the Survivor the podcast that promises to bring you the very best guess in True Crime and they keep on coming you've got two new faces today uh a big possible development in the case of missing Colorado mom Suzanne morphew we have not discussed this case on STS but uh it is a very big case uh nationally garnering a lot of attention uh just this past week a prosecutor working on the case announced in open court that investigators suspect they know the location of her body which I guess is a mixed bag of news that would imply obviously she's no longer with us uh but maybe they're moving ahead in the investigation the question obviously uh remains uh where is she and who is responsible uh best guest here tonight and they are good ones you've got Aya Gruber she's an expert on criminal law and procedure violence against women and critical theory before joining the USC Gould school school of law faculty which you just did about five days ago she taught at the University of Colorado law school where she was the iris C Roth Gerber professor of constitutional law and criminal justice and she was just featured on the 48-hour show about the Suzanne morphew case a good good episode if you have not seen it the man who looks like he's in a law office that is Jeremy Lowe he's a former Colorado state public defender turned Colorado Springs criminal defense attorney he is aggressively represented thousands of clients in Colorado in all aspects of criminal defense domestic violence and personal injury and prior to his legal practice has caught my attention as a former Fox News guy in D.C Jeremy worked in politics in DC where he was able to work for not one but two United States presidents we'll ask him about that shortly and then Dr J.P Garrison the man with possibly the best voice on STS he earned a side D in Clinical Psychology from the Georgia School of Professional Psychology and has been cited for his expertise in Psychology and numerous media Outlets including Business Insider Forbes Vice Huffington Post Yahoo news fatherly and of course now STS he's also I love this studied uh the language and culture of South Korea for over a decade and has his own YouTube channel and big uh fan base and it's called Dr G explained so uh thank you to all of you uh quick reminder follow us on Facebook insta Twitter we're a podcast STS you can also listen to us anywhere you listen to podcasts you can support us on patreon become a YouTube member hit that like button as my now nine-year-old daughter coming home from Sleepaway Camp tomorrow says it gets the algorithm chugged and the merch stores open and I am working on getting a hat so uh Jeremy who are the two presidents everyone wants to know before we get started uh President Clinton and President Obama so I'm a Democrat um surprise surprise yeah well that's interesting President Clinton and uh one with zero Scandal one with a never-ending Cascade of scandals but never ending because that's why we love him right yeah but uh we won't go into that right now but we will do a quick recap so for those of you who do not know and this is a very complicated case with a million different tentacles but Suzanne morphew she goes missing on Mother's Day 2020. in the early morning of May 10th uh Barry her husband left his home just outside of a Salida am I saying that to us is that pronounced correctly Salida right right there you go so just outside of Salida Colorado uh and he went to a job site 150 miles away in Broomfield Colorado uh after he left the house as kids do on Mother's Day the two daughters who were out of town on a camping trip started texting their mom Happy Mother's Day and got no response uh Mallory one of the daughters she informs her father that they're unable to reach Suzanne uh Barry says he finally reaches a neighbor and he asked Suzanne uh if the mountain bike is at their home I'm going to stop it right there I uh um as you understand it is this kind of how uh the day started to play out uh back on that people Mother's Day of 2020. yeah that's right I mean call his dad his dog have you heard from Mom um you know so it wasn't complete radio Silence from him but it was sort of throughout the day that the daughters and Barry are noticing that this is Mother's Day and usually Suzanne answers her phone and she didn't um and that's sort of when he asked the neighbor to go check on her and you know specifically to see if her bike is there yeah and uh Jeremy I'm gonna have you bounce in here what caught my attention and you know reading up on the case and I did watch the 48 hours is he calls the neighbor and he doesn't necessarily say you know is my wife there but he very specifically asked about this mountain bike which is found a short time later sort of on the side of a cliff um you're a defense attorney and you're a prosecutor does that is that interesting to you in any way that maybe he's shaping a narrative early on yes and it's you know probably the worst thing that he could be doing is you know same have you seen the bike and the other interesting thing is he's not really in the area at this time he's gone up to the Denver metro area for a job that was supposed to start essentially the next day is what the allegations are so have you seen my wife's bike and he's left the area for a project that starts you know 24 hours later it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would leave so early but you know there are a lot of things in this case that don't make sense and I'm sure we'll get into them and there are there are so many errors on an inept by an inept prosecution that it is shocking this case and I'm sure you'll get into it has taken so many twists and turns yeah and it just keeps on getting worse um for everybody involved yeah and uh I love it because uh Jeremy's building up to suspense but there are um more than a few aha moments or oh my God or as I guess uh we would say on Surviving the Survivor some oy vey moments um and we will get into uh all those uh Dr G I'm gonna have you explain this so Melinda Mormon the sister of Suzanne morphew um she received um a text from Suzanne two days before she went missing and according to Melinda this text message was quote unquote boiling over with anger toward uh Barry and it read in part and this is a direct quote um he's also been abusive emotionally and physically I feel more angry now uh anger at what I've allowed um you're the psychologist what does that tell you uh about the Iraqi state of their relationship uh you know well it it tells us a lot I mean and I'm sure we'll get into to more of it there's also a lot of history there as far as things that were caught on this recording pin and some other stuff but basically it's it's it shows that if if that's in fact true if he was physically and emotionally abusive that shows a level of someone who is able to perpetrate some pretty heinous heinous acts that as far as I know haven't been talked about otherwise I don't think he's ever was ever arrested for domestic violence or anything like that so it does show that the capacity to engage in that shows somebody that could potentially do something worse so that's always concerning when that background is there and I meant to mention off the top so uh we're now retired FBI agent Johnny grusing he's a work this case and he's become a friend of the show um if you guys didn't see it I did surviving my biggest case with him and it was about a serial killer Scott Kimball but I did reach out um to Johnny and uh Johnny and he's got a dry sense of humor uh no commented me um because of what I'm about to talk about next um but just wrapping up sort of the day of um Barry according to reports he doesn't head home immediately um he drops off a shovel and some other tools uh keep in mind though he was a landscaper but still anytime you hear a missing woman and shovel those aren't the you know the the best coupling of words in the sentence that you want to hear but so he drops off his uh tools for his co-workers uh where he'd book rooms for them again in Broomfield uh 150 miles away or so and then he begins driving home so he didn't head home immediately immediately that day but um I uh back to you um now kind of fast forwarding to the latest on this case uh Deputy district attorney uh Mark Herbert said in open court that investigators now suspect they know the location of Suzanne's body I mean what what does that say to you as an attorney and someone you know who's interested in in this case has been looking at it for a long time well I don't know how much you want me to spoiler alert what you're about to get it you can go for it because we're gonna we're gonna kind of circle around so it's it's totally your call so there are some pieces of physical evidence that you know both the police and sort of focusing almost relentlessly on Barry morphew as a suspect to their own detriment because I think it's going to be extremely difficult to resurrect this case and they're being sued for 15 million dollars um so I mean that sort of you know I'm not the psychologist but that's sort of cognitive bias that certainty error sort of like had them relentlessly focused well they had to deal with certain pieces of evidence um that you know we're tricky for them and one of the pieces of evidence was that there was basically no DNA blood evidence or any sort of evidence that physically linked vary to a murder right so then they had to come up with um you know some theories of how we nonetheless committed a murder and one of them we're going to get into was that he used a tranquilizer right and that wouldn't leave any flood um you know one of the things that came to light that was so damning and I'm sure we're going to get into it later was the very early dismissing of what I think was an incredibly incredible kidnapping Theory especially given the DNA evidence right and so I think that was something that you know still to this day is going on now that's not completely inconsistent with there being a body nearby right they could still kidnap and then the body could be nearby but I think it would go a long way to dispelling what I think from the beginning was a credible Theory which is that somebody nabbed her right either while she was on her bike or more likely um from her car um and so if they can find the body it's nearby they can find some evidence linking very to the body or reconstruct you know that scene and it's consistent with some of the car and cell phone being evidence that's going to be really big because I think the the the big problematic thing for them was that there's this completely plausible alter theory of how she goes missing yeah and uh what i is alluding to which will get to you again a very windy road this case is but um some male DNA is found and it's a we don't have the identity of who it belongs to but they do know that it's connected to some prior sexual assaults um well actually they do know oh they do that person lawyer it up but they had to do some phone calls to Arizona to find out who that person was um but we can get into that can I just kind of chime in about The Body Issue yeah hop right in well Jeremy yeah give me one sec I just wanna so I was saying uh you know once it if they can locate this body then they can possibly get some DNA evidence off of it but this um assistant district attorney says and this is a quote here and I'll have you react Jeremy she's in a quote very difficult spot um and he goes on to say we actually have more than just a feeling in the sheriff's office is continuing to look for misses morphew's body so with that go ahead Jeremy okay so this is not new information they said this a year ago and they said that they were waiting for the snow to melt before they could get to the body now I found it ironic that they were saying literally last week that they were having they know where the body is and they're having a hard time getting to it we literally were able to get bodies from the Titanic at the same time that this District Attorney's office is saying that we know where the body is and we're having a hard time getting to it and it comes at a really interesting time so Barry morphew's attorney Iris Eton filed a motion and the motion was for the case to be dis dismissed with prejudice so where are we at right now right where we're at right now is the prosecution who probably should never have filed the case and I can give a little background on that if you'd like um yeah yeah go ahead but I'd like to know why you think they so royally screwed this up and why they're so inept I'm sure you have more than a couple of reasons but continue on yes um so the prosecution filed the case the case was eventually dismissed by by the by the court and by the prosecutor without prejudice so as I have mentioned there's now this 15 million dollar lawsuit so what what comes with a 15 million dollar lawsuit where you're suing a hundred different people to get this 15 million dollars well when you sue somebody right like Barry Murphy is doing or a hundred people each one of those people gets to do a deposition right they get to defend that lawsuit and their themselves individually so Iris Eton is now asking for the case to be dismissed with prejudice and for your listeners what's the difference between dismissed with prejudice and dismissed without prejudice if a case like the morphew case as it currently stands is dismissed without prejudice that means at some point down the road the prosecution could refile the case if a case is dismissed with prejudice then the prosecution can never refile the case Jeopardy has attached and if they were essentially to discover new evidence the case has been dismissed with prejudice and Mr morphew could never be charged so this prosecutor is saying we we think we know where the body is or we know where the body is when Iris Eton is on the other side saying we want this case dismissed with prejudice and so there's just so many angles so many pieces of this chess match going on um and I say chess match very Loosely because What's Happening Here is Iris Eton and Barry morphy's attorneys are playing chess and this prosecution office is playing checkers and it's you know it's absolutely crazy that um they're bringing up now that they might know where the body is when they brought it up a year ago and Sarah said they're waiting for the snow to melt and you know we have some of the best outdoorsmen in the world located here in Colorado if they know where our body is they can get to that body that's really interesting and I was just going to come to Dr G but Dr G hang on for one sec this question is waiting for you um Aya we are covering um we just did a show on it the other night uh Corey richen she is a Utah mom accused of poisoning um her husband Eric Richards and she's sitting in jail right now uh in Park City Utah but she filed a civil suit and the lawyers were saying that was a horrendous mistake um who we had on the show because as to what Jeremy was just saying she can now be deposed and everything that she's deposed about can be used in the criminal case against her um is there any similarity here um is Barry morphew I mean Jeremy's talking about playing chess versus Checkers but is he walking into a trap potentially normally I would say uh until so this is kind of going into a Jeremy said about dismiss with prejudice until your Criminal Case is dead and buried do not make any statements you're not going to help you they're not going to be good for you a specialty statements under oath shut up right like that is like the rule of thumb it's the rule of shutting up in this particular case Barry has already made 40 something uncounseled statements to everybody who would listen just kind of like spouting off theories and they've been proven to be key pieces of why you know there was an arrest warrant there was an arrest affidavit and why the public now comes to to suspect him of this monstrous events um you know with the civil suit he'll have his attorneys you know he'll be in a completely different position so I totally hear what you're saying that you never as a defense attorney want a client making statements much much less than statements under oath before uh a criminal trial in this case um you know I don't know you know maybe Jeremy would know better but I I don't know the probability of success of this civil rights case I'd say probably it's pretty low um but I'm not sure how much the statements are gonna hurt just given what's out there Jeremy who's he suing and uh Todd's Point will he get that 50 million dollars uh in a in a settlement do you think or a verdict so he's suing essentially every prosecutor every Deputy every everybody with governmental immunity that could potentially um have touched the case they're suing them and so here's the problem as a defense attorney it's not the one statement that buries you buries your client it's the it's the first statement and then there's a contradiction with the second statement and then the third statement and then the fourth statement and what happens is is when you're when you're presenting a case to a jury the jury is really looking at credibility and truthfulness and so when somebody is giving a deposition they may not remember certain facts that they said to a law enforcement officer two years ago even if they're true your memory changes how you perceive a story changes components are left out or they're added and so they're going to have the prosecution is going to have enough contradictions and hopefully Dr G can also kind of talk about this a little bit more but um you're you're going to have different versions of events even if you you saw the event and you remember it clearly and those little contradictions are going to be what shows to a jury that you may not be telling the truth even if you are right or your story doesn't make sense even when it does and so yeah if we add something to that after you're done yeah depositions are and statements are the worst thing that a client can ever ever do and they they want to prosecute him this everybody wants this man prosecuted whether he's guilty or innocent they have you know jumped to conclusions and they need to build a case around it and anytime he tells a story to the police and then tells a story to some civil lawyer which can be used against him it doesn't just because your case is dismissed doesn't mean that it's gone and so they can order transcripts from every one of these depositions it's the biggest mistake and I do think he's actually making um open himself up to prosecution and that's why they want it dismissed with prejudice Dr D I think you could attest to this most people cannot imagine that somebody who says something either wild during an interrogation or inculpatory right or even a confession could be innocent when people see police interrogations they always go in with a mindset of guilt so it's always consistent with guilt consistent with guilt and I don't know how much we're going to get into this substance of various 40 statements but for example the Chipmunk statement that became you know a big thing so basically what the police had said was given his cell phone records when he got home he was running around the house and he was chasing Suzanne around the house with this dart gun to tranquilize her and you know kill her eventually um and you know they confronted him with it now it turns out that that cell phone information was completely bogus he would have to be going 50 miles an hour through walls you know to me that but of course he spelled out well maybe I you know maybe it was some Chipmunks right same thing with a very low uh valuable uh data point from his car that the forensic people said you know that this this GPS point that's somewhat near the helmet is very low value but use it in the interrogation right to really press him to confess so the user news like okay well uh you know sometimes I follow these L right and so when we hear things like that we're like 10 months elf this guy's guilty right but what we have to understand is the tactics of the police to sort of confront him with a bunch of physical evidence that it turns out is is not good at all and again and I think you know this may be why he's like I want to sue everybody I mean the the types of physical evidence that were either mischaracterized or suppressed like this DNA evidence of a sexual offender I mean that is some serious stuff so like I totally agree like it's never good for you to make uh to make any statements if you think your sculptoria they'll catch you in an inconsistency but I also want to make clear that the reason why confessions or statements are such good evidence right like eyewitness identification is that juries believe them in a way that doesn't always match up with the evidence on who's telling the truth um very interesting points and I could do nine hours on this tonight but it wouldn't be fair to the guests so we'll keep it to the normal STS time but uh Dr G I know I'm gonna get yelled at how come you're not letting Dr G talk so now I'm gonna let Dr G Talk and there's a question for you right here does Barry appear by the way real quickly I'm like the uh the Dopey guy I'm not the lawyer I'm not the psychologist ten thousand percent I would say this guy is guilty if it were not for that DNA that was found that's linked to this guy that committed sexual assaults which we're going to get into um obviously if you're the defense and there's everyone to trial you're going to try to muddy the waters as much as possible with that but Dr G does Barry appear like a man who truly is innocent or does he appear to only want his name cleared in order to cover his involvement and take suspicion off him just you can obviously answer the question I'm curious just your take and what you've read about him the type of person that you believe him to be so rather than speaking to whether or not he's guilty or innocent I can characterize some of the Behavior I've seen from him so for example the body cam footage when they found the bike I don't know if how many people have watched that but he doesn't seem particularly distraught does that mean that he kill his wife not necessarily maybe he just didn't care that she was missing or that she had had a bike accident but he didn't seem I work with a lot of people in a lot of distress to me his behavior during that was the first thing that made me say that he seems a little bit odd in this situation once again that doesn't imply necessarily that he committed this murder but it does imply that his emotions didn't match up with somebody who was upset or distressed that his wife was missing in terms of the more recent interviews that I've seen with him because I've just seen some clips of him talking with his daughters uh those there's there's nothing that he says in those that I found particularly for lack of a better term suspicious there's nothing that makes him appear to be lying specifically I mean he's uh pretty straightforward so there's nothing specifically about his behavior during the more recent stuff that has me saying okay that's something that we really need to look at in particular uh Dr G uh one of the things that strikes me about this case the Corey Richardson's case so many of these cases um how is it that reality is just really Stranger Than Fiction I mean if I put all these things that we're going to go through right now about Chipmunks and dart guns and you know sexual potential sexual pred how is it that reality is so much more absurd in a way if you heard the things that I hear on a daily basis you would you don't even know it's really I heard some of them because both my dad was a psychiatrist and my mom therapist I heard some of them but yeah so it there's no shortage of how strange the world really is and I think that now particularly with social media and the way that we can talk about things like we are now is that we're able to look at so many different aspects of of how strange all of this is but yeah it's incredibly incredibly peculiar and uh my one impression that I have of uh Barry morphew is that he does seem and I don't mean this in like a diagnostic way but he seems a little impulsive he seems like somebody so the idea that he would tell the story or come up with well maybe it was Chipmunks that I was trying to shoot or I think that's what he said something to that effect it's not entirely shocking with the way that he's he's acted and and other interviews so um tally is uh checking us out from uh Israel she's a criminology student in Israel welcome to Tali uh Lorna McKenzie right here uh Jeremy the prosecution really messed up the case uh speaking of that the uh Deputy district attorney came out said there was no timetable for bringing a murder case to trial and this is a direct quote that could be a long time it could be quick it could be long it depends on a lot of our investigation but um Jeremy to you can you sort of pinpoint um the two or three things that this prosecution according to you really screwed up and how they dropped the ball so badly yeah so first and foremost we have to go back to the beginning when Suzanne morphew and Barry morphew and this case came about um there was a different quote-unquote elected district attorney down in that jurisdiction it was a woman by the name of Caitlyn Turner Caitlyn Turner and her Deputy district attorney Ashley mchuig had the case they had decided not at that point to bring charges Caitlyn was a Democrat appointed by Jared Polis to take over a seat that had been left by the um by the district attorney who left midterm Fremont County Salida very the 11th Judicial District in Colorado very conservative okay Democrat is appointed by the by the governor and she she runs when it's time to to run for election and she loses to the elected um who who won the case and took over the prosecution one of the things that the elected now the now elected ran on was charging Barry morphew and so everybody's essentially saying we don't have enough evidence the FBI Colorado Bureau Investigation Fremont County Garfield County all the law enforcement agencies are saying we don't have enough evidence but we have this new prosecutor who has been who who in my opinion has really no business um taking this case I think her last prosecutorial job was a municipal City attorney in a little town called Pueblo um and she but she runs for for election on the idea of that she's going to prosecute Barry morphew when everybody in law enforcement is saying well hold up don't do it right because there's not enough but she decides to do it and we have FBI agents and CBI agents who've been accused of essentially not being forthcoming with statements not telling the truth on affidavits we have not disclosing evidence you know there were sanctions because the prosecution's office was not turning over evidence that had to be turned over right we have a rule in criminal procedure called Rule 16 which requires in federal cases and in state cases for the prosecution to turn over evidence and they weren't doing it we have a missing body right we have the DNA of the alleged sex offender that they didn't initially turn over to the defense it's one thing after another that the prosecution is in way over their head they don't know what they're doing and as a result they literally dismissed the case I I don't think we can really fathom what it what it takes for our prosecution to dismiss a first degree murder case I mean there are times when prosecutions prosecutors aren't certain whether or not somebody did it or not and they'll leave it up to the jury to determine that Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and they'll lose right if the evidence isn't there this case has been screwed up so badly that the prosecution had to dismiss it and they dismissed it on the Eve essentially of the judge judge Lama um saying that he may suppress all the evidence in the case because the prosecution had bundled or had bungled the evidence so poorly interestingly enough the judge who took over for judge Lama who just retired is Caitlyn Turner the prosecutor who said she wasn't going to charge the case um to that point uh Barrymore fuse and the the case was essentially dropped nine days before he was supposed to go to trial for murder uh his defense team had been pressing judge Lama to impose severe sanctions on the prosecution for failing to turn over uh as I alluded to earlier this potentially exculpatory evidence it had a trial um and he did impose these sanctions he barred 11 of the states 16 endorsed expert Witnesses experts in DNA vehicle data cell phone data analyst uh and he did this as punishment for violating Discovery rules uh in all the court excluded 14 of the prosecutions expert Witnesses um Ayah how common or uncommon is that sounds like it's not something that happens every day and it sounds like um as they say in tennis like an unforced error like they just weren't handing over the discovery the way they should have been you know I think I think red just thousands of pages on this case um how that ball got rolling was I think there was an enormous amount of pressure on the police the local police in Salida right the sheriff's department to make an arrest and in that initial arrest affidavit they just really it if you've ever seen a rest affidavits for the FBI and then read this when it's just not doesn't look very professional it's got a lot of sort of wild theories and filling in the blanks and extra things about morphew and I think that um you know once that happened and you have this arrest affidavit that paints very more few as this monster who hunted his wife and then there were press releases there's this pressure to go forward with this case and they weren't ready they needed to get all that DNA tested they needed to really an Earnest look for a body they needed to have more um fruitful uh interviews with Suzanne's lover not as even as a suspect but because he was an essential witness who could have filled in so many blanks of that day and they just let him get off without saying anything so I think the main thing they could have done was waited and instead what they did was go forward on on theories based on not just a circumstantial case but one that had a lot of holes in it and actively suppressed the evidence that would have pointed to other theories and I think that's what got them in in trouble now I just think there was a lot of pressure on them and they sort of um you know went full force without getting all their ducks in a row and without disclosing evidence and that's what led to this pretty extraordinary suppression you know I could even imagine a dismissal at that point just because so much critical evidence was suppressed and you know it was very exculpatory and that's a huge violation of constitutional rights um so yeah I just think they really jumped the gun and we're gonna have the uh Dr G explain these next two comments here this one from Sunny new here but Suzanne is on my mind 24 7. she deserves just as welcome by the way sunny and I love the name Sunny I'm an abused Survivor I was uh Suzanne but I got out in time my daughters are just realizing who their father is give the daughters time she's saying that because the daughters are standing by Barry's side are you surprised by that uh right now and uh I mean the question implies that we would think he is guilty um but uh what about the fact that both these daughters who are young adults um are backing what one might be a teenager but are backing the dad that doesn't surprise me at all and what an awful situation this is for them they presumably have lost their mother uh to their father was taken away in the sense that they he was preparing to go in trial obviously he didn't so uh I'm not even sure that you know they would allow themselves to cons I mean obviously I've never talked to them I don't know how they feel about this but I'm not sure that they would even allow themselves to consider most people probably wouldn't in this kind of situation even if there had been uh some uh domestic violence history with the mother um whether they knew about that or not uh and whether that happened or not we don't know but it doesn't it doesn't surprise me at all actually that's exactly what I would expect yeah um and we've seen now we saw that with um Chad dabell the uh Lori valo case that the children are standing by Chad even though he's facing uh death the death penalty potentially Lauren McKenzie here says uh Dr G I think that's the reason Suzanne had the affair because she was so unhappy with Barry controlling her um he was reported to be uh a very controlling person is that a reason why people will oftentimes um you know cheat on their spouses I mean he's a good looking guy he was an athlete I think he was a pro athlete for a short time um went for a guy that you might not expect her to go for but uh is that uncommon not at all the one thing that we see when people are in relationships particularly ones with someone who is controlling is that there are different things that people do to try to feel more in control and sometimes it's Affairs sometimes it has to do with how they choose to eat there's all sorts of ways that we do it but that's not an unusual way at all if that's uh if that's in fact true so shout out to Maui Swift who's been a big supporter of the show from almost day one and I feel like that overlooker and shout out to baby doll as well uh saying hello to Johnny grusing um Jeremy back to you so there are all these things that we've talked about um a little bit these strange Alibis and cues one of them is uh the Chipmunk Alibi that so they did some forensic uh work on the cell phones and the cell phone was buzzing around the house one questioned about it he said he was chasing uh Chipmunks and then they find a tranquilizer a plastic cap for a syringe that the state believes was used to load a tranquilizer dart into the couple dryer which is why Aya said there might not have been any blood found um of these two things um I don't know do you the Chipmunk thing made me kind of roll my eyes and say this guy is uh you know creating stories but what what do you make of it you know I mean the Chipmunk thing sounds dumb yeah but so does the fact that they're using ping data inside of a house yeah right like ping data is your cell phone pings up pings off of a of a you know a cell phone tower and it's almost the prosecution was using junk science ping data is not necessarily junk science but it's not going to necessarily pin somebody going through their house like that I mean it's just it just doesn't make any sense like Ping data is for yeah you can put somebody at a location not necessarily an exact location but a location within a place where there could be you know a cell phone tower and and things like that so it's incredibly unreliable um probably also very unreliable that you know Barrymore fuse running or is going through his health house shooting Chipmunks right I mean that's also stupid but with that being said you know they almost it's just so nonsensical both of them and so it's really hard to to counter to counter the two different theories the tranquilizer that's that's interesting you know there are a lot of reasons why in Avid Outdoorsman may have a tranquilizer but it's far more likely that they have a shotgun shell or some kind of bullet than a tranquilizer you know so I think that is is something really interesting but on the flip side of that if Barry morphew is really as calculated as we we suspect him to be or law enforcement really suspects him to be in the district attorney's office suspected seems to be is he gonna have just a tranquilizer cartridge that is something that was used in Suzanne's disappearance and potential death so easily accessible and findable to law enforcement that just doesn't make sense either I mean if he did it right in the words of O.J if he did it he he knew what he was doing and he's not gonna leave things like the tranquilizer cartridge or packaging in his pocket right that just doesn't make sense either and because he really did think about everything if he was the person that did it so with his tranquilizer casing for those who are not familiar um it was found in a uh in the couple's dryer um but Aya there was no uh DNA on it that linked back to Barry or anyone else for that matter uh what about the fact that there's you know some I guess circumstantial evidence but no direct evidence really at all in this case uh that we're seeing how problematic is that it's a hard case I mean there's so many twists and turns to this case I think it makes total sense to me that the police would focus on Barrymore View and especially after hearing from Suzanne's friends that she was leaving him that they had all this trouble that they were in a really fraught relationship and then even when they found out about the affair you know that's consistent with their theory that he's angry over the affair so he called them and statistically right when you have homicides you know looking at Domestic Relations makes sense that being said every single piece of the circumstantial evidence has a two sides to the story part of it that makes it not even a very tight circumstantial case so again fingerprint DNA that kind of stuff that everyone's looking for with with you know airtight circumstantial evidence it doesn't implicate burying and in fact it may implicate other people if you take something like um you know the Chipmunk Theory again it's based on this ping evidence that's no good and you know I kind of agree with Dr G I've watched all of Barry's interviews and run their transcript he is the type of guy who just spouts things out well if it's this it's that if it's this it's that and and what he said was I sometimes hunt Chipmunks and he also did have a tranquilizer gun that he would use and people attested this in illegal like gear hunting sometimes the thing about the tranquilizer of God is when the police found it like back in his shed somewhere it was broken um that cap that was found in the dryer was like a hypodermic needle cap that was excluded with his DNA it had some police DNA and some of the daughters DNA and like we don't know what it could be and it was also found eight days after a very exhaustive physical evidence search of the house so again so I'm not saying like Okay this proves he's innocent it's that every you know with a circumstantial case like this there are all these links that have to add up to guilt Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and each of these links you know none of them are the one you go well that's it right like they're all like these little links that have some issues with them um Dr J both uh Jeremy and I have talked about you know tunnel vision that's the word that a lot of people use Have We Become conditioned as a society to immediately believe it is the husband um you know a lot of what he says makes you scratch your head uh and does that include investigators do you think you know I I just had Phil Waters on uh for surviving my biggest case which is going to come out in a week or two on he investigated over 400 homicides and he's one of the best of the best um and he said he always lets the scene tell the story let's see evidence speak to him but but do you think now number one in the court of public opinion are people leaning towards the husband always and our investigators may be slipping into that slippery slope that's a great question I think hmm I mean I think that it's hard to say because with cases like this when you see like I said when you look at the body cam footage when you look at some of the early stuff like I said his his behavior is a little odd so I think people I really think people base it more on what they're seeing like when you see him talk even now I don't think people connect with him very well when they watch him talk about this and I think that's a big problem for him so I think that his the way he speaks the way he presents has more to do with why people suspect him rather than just him being the husband as far as investigators Go I mean I think that they probably do make some mental shortcuts if that's what they see more often I mean I guess it doesn't happen that often in small small towns are in these counties but I do think it makes a certain amount of sense particularly given the context that that's where they would take things but I don't know if there is a an implicit bias so to speak for the husband um I think that yeah that you there probably is always the need to eliminate that but I don't think people are going to go ahead and presume they actually did it unless there's something that makes them scratch their head about it yeah I always find that no matter how the husband reacts it's all I mean if he cries too much it's he's too emotional if he doesn't cry at all he must have done it because he wasn't emotional enough it's you know it's a lose-lose for the husband I mean it's it's tough and you know that's one of the tough tough things about seeing people in distress is yeah how what's the right way to act right like we know I don't think there's a right way to act but sometimes we'll look at something that feels like the wrong way to act I think if that's what we tend to react to that doesn't always mean that necessarily we're right about it but um you look at somebody like Alec Murdock when he his the way that he behaves and I don't know how much you guys are familiar with his case but the way he behaved when he was being questioned by police seemed way over the top it's sort of weird um you know uh but I do think that we can whether we're trained to or not we can get a feeling for whether or not somebody seems that something doesn't seem consistent we just sort of have a gut reaction to that that doesn't necessarily once like I said it doesn't mean somebody's guilty but it means that there's something that we're not making sense of and we can pick up on that pretty quickly so Aya from GNP here the job site Barry was going to did not allow permits for work on any weekends or holidays is do you know that to be true I had not heard that you know I I don't know that to be true or not um that's not a piece of evidence I've heard but I mean I could imagine that could be the case at STS nation is usually on the ball chitty chatty Meg I like that name uh he chased her down and shot her with a tranquilizer gun he's an animal that might walk again um that is the perception or the belief that a lot of people do have uh back to this spy pen and people who have not heard about this case are probably going what the hell are they talking about but so a spy pen uh basically right out of James Bond movie um it was able to capture and record conversations and it happened uh to capture and record a conversation between Suzanne morphew and uh man she was having an affair with I believe from Michigan he was a married guy uh with six kids um I have my first question is do we know why there was a spy pen in the house to begin with who did it belong to and why yeah we do and and I want to say one thing about just the comment um you know I think that that is that really did or the perception in this case just immediately after that police affidavit came out um the newspaper ran a headline Barry morphew um Hunted uh Suzanne morphe with the tranquilizer gun like an animal right like and so that I think is a very um you know that that's going to be the type of headline that that that color is a perception because not only is it you know sort of this horrific murder but also like my God if he's 100 or like a chipmunk that's like another level of horror okay so the spy pack the spy pen in this very sort of odd twist um you know Suzanne was having this wild and passionate and and pretty amazing affair with Jeff libler where they meet all over the world and you know he has six kids and he's kind of telling her he's going to run away to Ecuador to marry her with telling his wife with the six kids no no honey everything's fine right um but at the time where she's having this affair she was incredibly um worried it seems according to her friends are convinced that Barry was having an affair um and you know so the so a friend of hers I think it was both sort of this worry that Barry was having an affair or also just maybe wanting to catch uh you know Barry saying saying some things you know but to Aiden her leaving Barry the friend gives her this spy pen that looks like a normal pen but it's really recording everything and then it has a little USB and you plug it in and you can get the recordings and and during the search of the house after her disappearance they find this spy pattern and a lot of the recordings are um deleted but they you know what they found is even though the spy pen you know she had put in berries car and and one of the things that came to light in the affidavit was he was listening to True Crime podcasts and the airport it was probably like planning a murder um but you know amongst the things that caught that was one of them but it also caught a lot of conversations that she was having with a man named Jeff so it was this spy pen that revealed to the police six months after their investigation had commenced that there was this other man out there named Jeff and uh as I had just mentioned it took investigators six months to identify this guy Jeff he did have a wife and six children no idea if he's still married or not um and uh he never came forward on his own which is understandable because he got caught in a trap a married guy with six kids but he did cooperate uh once uh you know investigators did come knocking on his door he gave up his DNA his phone records and uh I believe he was cleared um they were able to verify um an alibi um this comment Dr G made me think of you right away from yin yang money will bring Gary down in the end um assuming for a moment that he is guilty just making the hypothetical assumption sure uh what kind of hubris would it be for him to now be suing um all these you know State entities here I mean that wouldn't surprise me I don't I don't think that him suing them implies innocence by any stretch you know so if someone was guilty of this crime it wouldn't surprise me that they would follow up to show uh that you'd have to be pretty grandiose to commit this kind of crime in the first place so it wouldn't surprise me at all to go and try to sue a lot of people following that that doesn't once again I don't think that implies his guilt or innocence the fact that he's doing that but um it wouldn't surprise me that someone that is guilty would would follow up and try to do something like this I just want to add that I don't know how he's going to get around governmental immunity and so and and I have you know I mean yeah he he sued immediately after Colorado passed a state you know law that um got rid of qualified Immunity on state constitutional claims so I think they're hoping for that they have filed the Federal which I mean I guess they're just going to argue that it was clearly established unconstitutional but they did it like right after that that law went into effect I still think there are there's a qualified immunity for like the prosecutors and things like I mean they've sued essentially everybody and what what they they talk about money bringing buried down if they go and get summary judgments against Barry morphew um for bringing essentially claims that he could not have brought they can have their attorney's fees awarded against morphew and so and their costs so I think um Mr morphew on not just a criminal side but from a personal and financial side is making a very very huge mistake you know sometimes it's better to right off into the sunset with your Victory right if he did it or if he didn't do it he was cleared of essentially not clear but he's not being prosecuted for murder trees the reason why we're essentially talking about this case again is potentially because of this lawsuit because the case closed almost a year ago or more than a year ago but now we have the lawsuit now we have as a result of the lawsuit the um the prosecutor saying the bodies were going to find the body we don't want to dismiss with prejudice you know I think uh the The Listener who said money will bring him down that very well may be true because we're talking about it again now when the case hasn't been talked about for months very interesting point Dr G so so something I want you to keep in mind also is that it and once again I don't know if he's actually controlling or not let's just assume that he is a controlling guy you're going to make decisions against your best interest to feel in control and that's one of the problems a lot of criminals struggle with this is they need that control they commit acts like murder because they want control over that person because they're going to leave or whatever it is so you know if he in fact was guilty of this and then followed It Up by doing something against his best interest it wouldn't be entirely shocking because that is definitely a move to to regain control for sure so you know we're smart people we can look at any of these moves as consistent with guilt and consistent with Innocent based on the story you tell right yeah I I always say whatever lawyer says I tend to believe I don't know why because it should be the exact opposite but uh you guys are generally good at persuading people um Cara Cal Young says uh the DNA were only partial matches did not meet standards that is correct Aya you know I'm not a DNA expert I'm obviously not a DNA scientist but the the whole idea of like a a partial DNA profile I think that's what what made me mean they were only partial DNA profiles and you know there is a certain level at which when you put the profile into codex it has to meet before it says it's a hit it's a positive hit and it met it you know I mean could some DNA expert come in and say like well you know there's a question of whether that that hit how how accurate it is yes um but but again you know the prosecution is then in the position of proving that the Codex hit is not a good hit right they're usually in the position of saying okay the Codex hit on this defendant it's a good hit um so it's true I don't think that that piece of DNA evidence and what I'm talking about is they found DNA evidence in the glove compartment of Suzanne's car and that's what hit to the uh to these open sex offense cases and they called up Arizona police and it turns out they had actually arrested somebody um is this guy sorry to interrupt but is this guy in custody right now is he serving time for this you know I haven't followed it up since we did the 48 Hours episode but the the last I had heard was they had the police uh the Salina police or maybe it was the Colorado Bureau of Investigations one of the detective detectives had followed it up to a name right and um they had contacted or attempted to contact that person and that person had responded that he had a lawyer and you couldn't contact him and that's the last I heard about an actual person being linked to those cold you know cold sexual assault cases that match that hit but again you know the who's that Barry didn't do it it you know there was a DNA of somebody else who matched in the you know a partial profile yes that matched in codex to this you know these various sexual assault cases that's that's a wild piece of evidence just to keep under wraps you know there were also there was also unidentified male DNA all over the bike and helmet right like all over the scene that didn't match up to any of the people who they identified as being at the scene the detectives and other people there they had done elimination samples so it's it's not to say that this couldn't all be true and Barrymore if you did it it's just that like here are all these DNA pieces of evidence pointing to other people and yeah you could say they're not perfect but they're definitely something a little while ago Jeremy mentioned O.J Simpson this comment reminds you exactly that Dr G is for you from Anushka uh Barry's not trying to find his way for anyone else who could have done anything OJ really wasn't looking too hard afterwards either he's not Seeking Justice for his wife um to be fair we don't know what's going on behind the scenes but I guess the overall impression is that he's not working too hard to try to locate her um is that just the product of a bad marriage or is that a person who may uh know why he does not need to look for her that's a good question I think it's a fair question when somebody asks well why at least does he not appear to be working harder we you know like I said we don't really know what he is and isn't doing but if for argument's sake he isn't uh doing a lot of legwork to try to find her yeah that that doesn't necessarily mean that he killed her it might just mean that he you know is is not incredibly motivated to find her that's possible too he was also sitting in custody for a long time yeah and he did put out a hundred thousand dollars reward and went on YouTube and did the whole room he's innocent well it's because he didn't if you believe he's guilty it's because he's guilty yeah it is a very my wife and I always joke about this but there's there is no way for a husband to win Jeremy you're going to say something I didn't mean to cut you off yeah I just think that like it's he was sitting in custody and then he was charged like if if I were and he's the most hated man in a small mountain town right like we're not talking about getting lost in Manhattan here like this is a town of maybe 10 000 people in the peak season of summer in the peak season of winter I mean it's not like he can go I mean he was really a man that even when he was out of jail was essentially kind of Trapped in his own kind of world because it's just a really bad situation yeah all around um this is interesting too from LS uh Barry morphew has a hunter mindset he's an avid Hunter um Dr G is that does that change you know if you're in the hunters I know a lot of them are alpha males and I don't want to stereotype but that's just the case um is there something to be said about the psychological makeup to use that word with you about being a hunter that could Propel you to depend to potentially commit a heinous crime or does it have nothing to do there are a lot of hunters that don't I would I would find that very unlikely that those are related honestly so probably not all right glad you cleared that up um what about this Jeremy back to you at the time it seems like the state prosecutors were rather intimidated by Barry's very expensive high-powered uh lawyers your thoughts Jeremy you know I I talked about this a little bit before the prosecution the prosecutor the state's attorney um was Linda Stanley right so Linda Stanley I've known her um she was a Pueblo County prosecutor and then was kind of something happened she was no longer there then she went as a Pueblo City attorney where she was Prosecuting very low level traffic offenses at some point she opened up or at some point she went to um to be a DMV administrative judge which essentially she's hearing license revocations for some people that have too many points and then she um opened up her own practice where she was reprimanded by the Supreme Court and then this opportunity came to run as a republican in a very conservative District against an incumbent Democrat and she she won the election not by a not by a huge number you know I think in a jurisdiction where president Trump got I think somewhere close to 70 percent of the vote she got 55 so it was not a a huge number but she is just outmatched and what where things really went down is she had brought on a prosecutor by the name of Jeff Lindsey Jeff Lindsay is a prosecutor who's been in Colorado Springs which is a fair a much larger metropolitan area and then he'd gone down to Pueblo when we had a regime change the prosecutor's office in in Colorado Springs and Jeff was really somebody who could handle this case Jeff is a very experienced prosecutor I've gone up against Jeff Lindsey on some high profile cases he knows what he's doing he's good he left that office I think when he realized how inept uh Linda Stanley was um and he wanted nothing to do with it and then she was really flying you know with a very low budget um a very difficult time finding prosecutors even prosecute the case and then we have Iris Eton who is one of the top attorneys in the state of Colorado Prosecuting or I'm sorry defending some of the highest profile cases I think her firm um many years ago was the same firm that defended Kobe Bryant when he was charged out in Colorado with the crime weren't and um was the same firm I think it's Adam Morgan who um who's the woman who was prosecuted in New York Jeffrey Elaine Maxwell yeah Glenn Maxwell same firm that uh Glenn Maxwell hired and um Jeff paliuka was flying to New York and defending her so this is a firm uh who knows what they're doing they're very good defense attorneys they have the resources if you can afford to hire The Firm you can afford to put on a good defense and so you know I know I'm being long-winded here but there are so many it's not even it's not even it's checks chess first Checkers I can't say that enough like they're just smarter you know there's good surgeons and there's bad surgeons there's good lawyers and those bad lawyers and this is one of the best lawyers that money can buy against somebody who was hearing you know speeding tickets for the state and Barry's got the uh he has the resources his business was doing well according to all accounts um I had EU and then we'll get this comment for Dr G so on May 9th which was the day before Mother's Day uh Records phone records show that Suzanne morphew and uh the Manchester was having an affair with that they messaged each other 59 times um she took what investigators called a last Proof of Life selfie uh Barry that day was out running errands and he sent her a text basically saying did you leave uh she's met uh he's met with Silence from her um then the question kind of arises did did Barry even know about this affair um and my bigger question to you is how does this affair complicate um his defense um and does it help the state I I think we would have more explosive evidence between them and and the children and again from the time they found that their a Jeff existed into the FBI six months to figure out that it was Jeff libler it it was it was a very well hidden Affair now that being said there is some evidence that you know they were accusing each other of cheating that he you know it was if if you want to use the the affair to show that he had some jealousy and they didn't have a good relationship I think that that there is evidence of that that there was Jealousy on both sides they didn't have a good relationship I don't necessarily think he he knew about libler what I find really interesting about that whole series of events because May 9th is the day before she officially goes missing but that's the day she's theorized to have been murdered and the theory is that you know she was essentially sexting uh her lover right they there's pretty clear evidence that they went on WhatsApp and and you know engaged in in in Intimate acts so the theory is that um Barry came home and maybe even caught them in this act and then in a fit of rage chased around killer um although I don't know how consistent that is with the like perfectly planned out murder but right that's one of the theories going around it's really interesting though that there's some physical evidence that is that that complicates the matter one is after the time of the quote-unquote proof of life and him saying oh I'm coming home Barry's saying I'm coming home uh Jeff actually did text or or Whatsapp or one of those apps to Suzanne and say you know basically my crew is home uh his family so we have to stop Communications um and then there's also some evidence that her phone was being used and the computer was being used later in the night so there's interesting evidence here and and here's the point I want to make I it's hard for me to believe that Jeff libler has nothing to add about what happened between about 2 30 on May 9th and the rest of the day and and I just wonder like has that been asked what did he say yeah that's a great that's a great Point yeah sorry no go ahead Elsa I has said that's important is we talk about the evidence there is but we also don't talk about the evidence there's not right there's no blood spatter like in the house if he's running around there's no GSR that they founded that I mean if you shoot a gun in a house or anything like that there's going to be evidence of that um all over the place like however however there is which I was getting to next but since you brought it up there there are signs of a possible struggle there were scratch marks found on Barry uh he was asked about it um and then the uh the door in the master bedroom had a a vertical crack along the door frame and Barry's response to that is I have no idea what the crack is from um if you're presuming that maybe a tranquilizer dart was used Jeremy then there wouldn't be blood Splat uh splatter but right but there could be scratches on Barry which there were so um I don't know does that it's complicated right I mean how do you I mean you guys do True Crime there there have been cases where the crime scene like they don't find a lot of physical evidence and then the person ends up confessing or some video turns up so it's it's not impossible right like to have a fairly pristine crime scene and a murder occurred there it's just you know again it's less likely yeah um so we talked about this already and then we'll move forward just so there was DNA on the glove box of Suzanne's uh Range Rover everyone's yelling at me to say that there were partial profiles so I will reiterate that and then there was some forensic evidence from Barry's truck um he said that he went to bed around 8pm this is the day that the murder is presumed to have happened the day before Mother's Day on May 9th which is by the way my dog Ethel bug Johnson's birthday but uh anyway I digress for a moment uh but his truck's computer shows the truck um was put in reverse and backed up towards the house around 9 30 p.m so he said he went to bed but forensic digital forensic shows uh 9 30 p.m is when he backed the truck up Jeremy how problematic is that for the defense you know it's obviously not a great fact if you're you're putting the truck in reverse and potentially throwing a body in the back of it right after something happens um but again you know obviously as a defense attorney you want somebody to keep their mouth shut say nothing and so when you know you hear this down the road the truck goes in reverse there's some kind of logical explanation as opposed to I don't know I was sleeping I don't know I might try magically went into reverse with that being said these are just small little inconsistencies the truth is if we had a better prosecutor if we if we had better lawyers maybe it adds up to enough to make a conviction and bring and bring Suzanne morphew's killer to Justice right but we don't have that and so it's really I would hate that fact I would hate the fact that somebody said they went to bed and they were sleeping and all of a sudden we have you know evidence that the truck was going in reverse but the problem is is that putting a case together is like putting a puzzle together you can put together enough pieces to get the picture and that's great but if you don't have people that are smart enough to put the pieces together then then you're not going to get a conviction I have a feeling that if we had your listeners Prosecuting this case we would have had a conviction but that's not what we have here yeah STS Nation they will convict these guys know the law too and most of them are not attorneys as far as I know uh Dr G and we'll start to wrap up in a moment uh what do you think about Barry's 28 second video for Suzanne's return this is what I was talking about a little while ago you can Google this and see it um and he says oh Suzanne Whoever has you uh he didn't seem um overly emphatic let's put it that way what do you how do you read into it it's so so as someone myself who has ADHD it's it's a near constant struggle not to say something stupid constantly so when I see something like this I'm like is he impulsive and just doesn't think through what he's going to say I mean I I do Wonder because you know I didn't necessarily read that as a sign of guilt but just as a sign of someone who talks off the cuff too much um and maybe that's exactly what he wanted to say or someone who has big ideas that just don't pan out that well so I thought it was strange but I didn't necessarily think that implicated his guilt and Dr G right back to you with Ashley I thought Barry seemed very odd on the body cam he never asked law enforcement any questions just started uh railing off reasons not to look at him uh you talked about that a little bit care to expound on it a tiny bit yeah sure I mean he just you know describing him is very odd I think is fair because presumably if his wife's bike had been found and her body was not there's something problematic likely happened and it just didn't seem very connected to that fact was he in denial that something was going on I guess that's also possible but it just yeah it was not very consistent with how many of us presume we would feel if someone that we loved and cared about was missing or potentially hurt or something like that so this comment from baby doll I did I never heard this if this is true this is funny very so delusional that when they arrested him he told Rue Singh I thought we were friends um no idea if she's being sarcastic I think she is no I believe I believe that I think that I think I remember that but we have to also keep in mind is that the detectives went over and he made dinner for them because they were going over to pray with him and when they prayed with him they also were recording everything right like so they you know maybe yes it could be delusion like he couldn't imagine that they would suspect it um but it was also that that was part policing tactic for better or ill was you know to act like his friend it's the mutton Jeff right the mutt part or the deaf part can I say one thing about uh special agent gurusling because I saw him I've watched his interrogation of Leticia Stout and he is really awesome for anybody who has never like watched him work like he's he's fantastic he really is yeah so I could I could see people feeling connected to him that had met him because he just has an energy about him he's so uh measured and smart and uh just very calm and calm Under Pressure um did you guys cover the Scout case uh we did not on our show wow I was yelled at plenty for that but uh yeah we need to um probably a little too late for that now um yeah um now but we should and we will maybe in the future a couple real quick things here so Aya back to you um multiple trash runs Barry's seen jumping around from uh dumpster to dumpster to dumpster another bad fact he says that he wanted to avoid paying landfill fees [Music] um problematic again I mean I mean there's just so much like I think one of your listeners said he's creepy there's just so much that's creepy right like this the whole Chipmunks thing and the tranquilizing deers and the Bucks and the Elks and then the trash runs and everything he's creepy right and the fact that he left early in the morning and then there's even camera footage of him like stopping in like a parking lot across from a fast food restaurant and going into their dumpster and it looks guilty as Sin right I mean like when you paint that picture it's like it looks guilty as Sin again however there are always little things like they did search all the trash dumpsters and it was trash um they did you know check the bed of his truck swab dip for blood DNA nothing right like so you have a bunch of really creepy looking really suspicious looking things do they add up to guilt Beyond A Reasonable Doubt or is it just sort of a Confluence of creepy guy but didn't kill his wife right yeah and it's a that's a very fine line I guess amongst many men um creepy or killer I don't know uh we'll find out in due time for those who do not know and he's certainly not creepy this guy's smart Jeremy Lowe is a pleasure to have him on the show he's a former Colorado state public defender turn Colorado Springs criminal defense attorney um and prior to his legal practice as we heard worked in politics not for one but for two United States uh presidents um there are allegations uh by the state I guess um or evidence that they suggest points to the fact that the uh scene was staged uh Jeremy what do you make of that if anything in your final thoughts you know I think that anything is obviously possible I think that it's not like you can mail order sex offender DNA right that there's no website for that the the there might be I mean at least I would hope not it might be in in Korea um or you know the bike perfectly placed and and the the you you would want to think that you know even as a defense attorney I try and think the best of people and to perfectly stage something it just seems really really really um hard to Fathom but I guess as we've discussed earlier anything's really possible we people are out of their minds and just getting crazier every day so maybe somebody's calculated enough to order you know sex offender DNA or talk to somebody and plan their spouse's murder in such a calculated way um are they really going to make so many stupid mistakes like uh Barrymore for you did by going to the trash with a bunch of different bags backing not knowing about the vehicle data you know not remembering that it backed up it just there's too many things that are mistakes that make it so if he was that calculated to set up the perfect crime scene that he would have done better on little other aspects too Dr G I think I asked you this last time and Jeremy just brought it up is the world getting crazier are people getting stranger or is it just our perception and has it always been a weird place I think the world's always been a violent and dangerous place I think the way we behave maybe is a little overtly Stranger than it used to be but otherwise I think that you know uh well and and people are getting a little bit more isolated so there are aspects of the world that are getting a little weirder but I don't think that the crimes are are changing a whole lot um maybe just the package they come in um and there were some troubling texts between uh Suzanne and her friend she wrote to her friend I feel no peace when he's here I would not feel safe alone with him uh he won't speak of divorce I'm done I could care less what you're up to and have been for years she right she texted to Barry we just need to figure this out um civilly for those who do not know Dr G JP Garrison is an all-around great guy uh now a friend of the show love when he's on here he has his YouTube channel Dr G explains um what is Dr G's option on the suspect's personality do you have a personality profile for whoever did this it's it's tough you know um it so much of the information we know about his personality or claims are like if the with the text that we're finding now and things that we're hearing so much of it is through like uh people texting each other and so much awful things are said to each other through texts and so many it's so hard to glean whether or not uh you can gauge a whole lot about his personality based on those things so it's it's hard to say right if if he's a controlling guy then that's obviously very concerning if he has been abusive if that's in fact true that also lens Credence to a very concerning personality profile um but I think there's still so much that is unconfirmed at this point at least to the best of my knowledge and that makes it a little hard no one's got a better voice and Dr G Wendy B became a YouTube member thank you Wendy b um big shout out question does anybody think we find the body we're about to get there I don't know um I I for full disclosure I just don't know enough about the case I mean it sounds like it's in a remote area but I interviewed Johnny grusing about the Scott Kimball serial killer which happened in Colorado and they found bodies in the most remote places imaginable in Utah and Colorado so it is possible I don't know um but I mean to Jeremy's Point Aya and Andrew's comment here if the state does discover Suzanne's body um is it game back on vis-a-vis Barry as she is suggesting I I kind of hope they find a body and hope that the body's in a condition to give us some answers um you know because it would be nice for for there to be closure and and Justice and not the risk that you know it it's not him and he's getting convicted or that he did it and he's going away but going away in jail but I just don't know a if they're gonna find the body of B if it's going to give us any answers given that the condition it it might be in hey am I allowed to use my little bit of time to ask Dr g a question 100 100 okay because a lot of people ask me since I've read all the documents like do I think he did it and you know at first I was like a statistical thinker like it's usually the husband especially if it's Friday so he probably did it and the crime scene was cleaned while I'm blah blah blah then when his daughter sort of um you know we're standing by my thoughts of myself well the daughters were insistent there was never any history of abuse blah blah so maybe you know maybe it was somebody you know a sex offender or a group of people who nabbed her and and maybe raped her in the woods and and they ditched her body right um but then there was something really interesting that just in rereading the documents I I saw and when she writes him that you know I'm seriously done you know no more of this I want a divorce you know of course he doesn't say well I'm gonna kill you like that would be you know super it's like but what he does say is something along the lines of you know I'm gonna be with the Lord soon I'm going to kill myself right like when that happens I'm gonna kill myself and to me like especially like men with guns with accents and guns that whole suicide you know and in love when they're emotionally override the suicide homicide thing isn't that far apart and I had missed that I have missed the suicidal ideation and am I making a bigger deal of that than it is no and I won't just because I haven't actually I haven't seen that that myself but what I can say with couples that I work with where this is thrown around because this is not uncommon for people to go like fine if you're gonna leave or whatever like I just might as well kill myself or when people get drunk they say these kinds of things oftentimes that that would implicate a controlling personality that they feel out of control and they go fine well I've got you know that's that's sort of a trump card right now which is that fine if if you're gonna leave then I'll you know kill myself how do you feel about that so it's It's Not Unusual to see people that are controlling to use that kind of language um uh by the way uh they talked about Suzanne and her uh that man she's having an affair with talked about running away to Ecuador in this comment could she be in Ecuador um I my I'm no psychologist and I'm no lawyer but my answer to that is no way because she wouldn't leave her daughters um for those who do not know uh I agruber she's an expert on criminal law and procedure violence against women and critical theory uh before joining the USC Gould School of Law she taught at the University of Colorado which is how she's sort of connected to this case she was just featured on 48 Hours about the Suzanne morphew case uh Iowa while I have you SGS Nation uh we are drumming up uh noise about a case out of Philly which I would love for you to look at Ellen Greenberg if you haven't heard about it uh we did it this week and I could send you a link she was found dead back in 2011 she was stabbed 20 times 10 to the front 10 to the back of her head in the back of her neck um she was engaged at the time uh a independent autopsy found the two of the stab wounds came after she had died and uh it was ruled a homicide quickly changed to undetermined and then switched to a suicide uh the fiancee's family uh is very high up in the uh in the Philadelphia sort of uh world of uh celebrity and uh high up in the in the in the legal profession in that City and I'd love for you to take a look at it uh Josh and Sandy Greenberg um have been on the show we're gonna do another show about this next week but I'd love to get legal Minds like yourself and Jeremy looking at that case to try to help get her some justice so uh please do look at if you can quick quick programming note tomorrow 5 p.m eastern time great Scott it's your true crime Phil with former FBI agent Scott Duffy and then listen to this everyone Sunday call to come back she's coming back and we're doing a noon live to accommodate Carm who is in the Holy Land uh hanging out there for the summer uh but she's gonna come on and we are doing the show about another story that I know I would be interested in now that she's at USC there's a guy named Brett Canter Google him he was a rising music executive he was murdered back in 1993 at the age of 25. he was stabbed something like 22 times the case is still open and we have the lead investigator uh from the LAPD uh coming on to discuss that case Sunday at noon a cold case that they're hoping to warm up until then love you America love you Georgia of course we love you Colorado everyone stand by for one second

Channel: Surviving The Survivor: #BestGuests in True Crime

Views: 45,548

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Id: 12vmfz1H-ps

Length: 89min 59sec (5399 seconds)

Published: Fri Jul 07 2023