Is Homosexuality Natural?

questioning is perhaps the greatest gift we have as human beings science is more than a body of knowledge it's a way of thinking it's a way of thinking that teaches us to question everything we think we know science came about by developing techniques methodologies for gaining reliable knowledge about the world we have at our fingertips the technologies that were only possible for the largest governments and corporations 20 years ago as an individual today yes between civilizations continued anything remotely like the current pace of technology mounts but for a million years where would we be I think we're either extinct or in a lot of planets we're good thing about science is that is true whether or not you believe in it we hold the scientific method high regard because it works if it's not working we throw it out welcome to the here on how podcast where every week we dive deep into big ideas to explore the past and create a brighter future this is episode seven is homosexuality natural I'm Stephan Woodford also known as rationality rules and with me is the talented Thomas Westbrook also known as holy kool-aid and the rascal Rachel Oates say hi guys hello I've been using descriptive words beginning with T and R to basically introduce you and I realized just three episodes of doing it that it's a mistake because there's almost none fatigue and there is really like none for are they've become derogatory and I can't do that to you Rachel but Goss Ross who was getting to be fair I I agree with that you are Roscoe I think our viewers know it I think your viewers know it yeah you're definitely a rascal I don't think of terrible and terrific yeah well those did come up and I thought they just don't work the horrible Thomas Westbrook and the random Rachel Oates but yeah I will start using the same terms I've used before because because of that exactly you're allowed creativity I know man I'm spent okay so we've already dived off and that's fantastic cuz that's what we do so so I'm gonna start with an easy one okay what is homosexuality it's where a person likes another person who has the same genital system that's that's that's good and some abomination that God disapproves of I was waiting for that waiting to be fair you'd eat that's a good answer but you're jumping the gun I like that you put on a thick American accent for I think that's telling well most Southern Baptist preachers have you know thick southern accent so it's like they do they I can't understand them God will punish you is that taught from childhood does that thing or is it it's just it's cool to accentuate the words well that I think that's just a pastor thing to accentuate it like that but the strong southern drawl they just pick up on from being around other people with strong accents yeah if you start travelling at a young age like you lose it you lose your accent yeah that's carnival what's happened to your accent right uh yes and no so like if I if I'm down south for too long and then I leave the country for the first like couple months or so people are like oh you know you sound like you're from Texas and then it kind of goes away yeah I mean for me listening to you you don't you don't have a typical American accent it is American for sure but it doesn't seem so typical don't know if you agree with me that Rachel now you sound smarter than that I of course jest I know there's very smart sevinor's and I actually I had an algebra teacher in college who one of the German students is like I just I know that he's really smart but I can't take him seriously because he has a strong southern accent it's how much we should do a whole episode on how we associate accents with intelligence because I wouldn't very much happens yeah when Americans hear a British accent a lot of times they think like oh they're so smart right it's not the case but I get that a lot because if the British accent and soon as somebody says you've got a British accent it makes you sound smarter all of a sudden start acting like I come from Oxford rather than the Isle of Wight in Portsmouth especially Yorkshire Oh Yorkshire is horrible but I had the same cases what Thomas was just saying in the sense actually I should add in my opinion I didn't like the accent but I had a lecturer very very smart man but one I couldn't understand what you were saying and two I just couldn't get over the fact that you had that accent life's full of hard perils a speaking of things that are hard I like how are we completely derailed the topic from homosexuality to accent we do and you're absolutely right accents will come at another time so we don't discriminate based on sexuality only you can't help it it's natural as it were and we lost our one viewer that has a silly accent they do exactly brilliant I would just wonder about the audience take a card they oh they were always assuming our our accents so Rachel you hit on the net the nail on the head is basically same genitalia so I've got a definition here that I read it's simply romantic attraction sexual attraction or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender so exactly what you said it's not controversial we all know this it's not that's not a thing but it's worth putting it in the forefront of our minds before we proceed forward so the second question I have for you and it's also an easy one is what does it mean to say that something is natural I don't think that's an easy question for me I'd say it's natural if it's just kind of harder question than uh then it seems right well I would say I would say something that occurs on its own in nature technically life we did our abiogenesis episode life of us on its own naturally and gets us to this point and then we naturally create things that aren't considered natural like laptops microphones exactly and then do you consider laptops and microphones natural because they are a product of nature of we're opponent of nature which the evidence strongly indicates and what we do is a product of nature so it's one of these people have in their mind it doesn't occur in nature and you're right you're both right actually if you using that definition it's a pointless definition because as far as the evidence shows everything that is related to biological organisms is an expression of nature it is derive from nature isn't something natural if it's not supernatural yes that's enough up there that's another one we can run with I mean your problem is that we have no evidence whatsoever of anything being supernatural become natural it would exactly so it's like natural was one of those words that falls in it's very easily used people understand what you're saying but if you really start diving into what does it actually mean people aren't really too sure it just it just fits there's a multitude of definitions the bit the best I've come up with and you can tell me if you think I'm wrong on this it's basically it you can consider something to be natural if it's derived from nature as opposed to humankind that's a clumsy definition but it seems to be the one that works the best so humankind produce laptops we don't look at that as natural it doesn't occur in nature where is yeah you look at a tree well that occurs in nature it occurs without any kind of intervening from humankind what about like skin products that say like purely natural or something it's like I guess the the ingredients are natural but the process certainly isn't yeah exactly so you'd say and of course they're then the products and the advertisers are playing with the word itself and taken advantage of the fact that it's not well defined but yes it's technically this is sea salt from the Mediterranean or or whatnot and that might be true then you getting into the avenue of how much is it do they have to have in the product in order to say that it might be it must be at least 1% and then they sell it like it's more but the point being is that there are things that occur in nature and there are things that occur exclusively because of humankind and we can draw a stink distinction between them and for the sake of brevity say that one is natural and the other is a product of humankind but is it's it's definitely you guys are right on the money with immediately saying actually that's not an easy question as hard so the next question I have for you is is homosexuality natural does it occur in nature yeah yeah yeah yeah excellent so what examples do you have just so that we can proceed from there um I want to say cheetahs have like a very strong homosexual tendency to two cheetahs of the same sex that are behaving in homosexual behavior yep and that's just one of I think there's like dozens if you go on like Wikipedia you can find a list of like dozens and dozens of animals that are homosexual behavior at times there is this there's tens of thousands it is really popular so when I was younger I yeah tons absolutely tons it seems to be more in mammals particularly it's more popular than it's not now I bought into hearing a preacher when I was younger saying that it's not natural because well how can it be natural because it is against evolution as well you know it's it's not like homosexuals can reproduce how can that be considered natural and that even to someone that was non-religious I I stopped and considered that and I have very good friends that have bought into that before until I've alleviated them from Ellucian as it were but it's an easy is easy to see why people come to that conclusion so we've are saying that homosexuality is natural that's the question answered so guys thank you for listening Rachel will be skinned you know I think if if I were to play the devil's advocate and come at this from you know a creationist pastors point of view yes I think that that is the crappiest argument that they can possibly use because since when does natural mean moral like even if you know one we see a homosexuality in nature but we also see rape in nature we see a murder in nature we see all kinds of horrible horrific things in nature we see cannibalism often touch their sons boy parts as a way of calming them down yeah I mean soon as somebody starts appealing to nature for morality well it's known as the appeal to nature fallacy for a reason you just yet you just got apply some reductio ad absurdum and you just show them a well if you're saying what's natural is what's right then as you just said rape is natural it happens in every culture animals rape each other all the damn time you can't just select one and say that's okay because it's natural that's not okay because it's not and of course this comes into gmos with food etc where people go I don't want to be genetically modified food is not natural while eating broccoli made from us basically there are lots of things that aren't natural that are perfectly fine that we do all the time like right now we're talking over Skype that's not natural but I know very few Christians who would argue that you know unless they're like Amish or something that there's anything wrong with using technology that's not natural and even the Amish that they're fine with technology as long as they don't as long as they don't see it as a window and certain other temptations yeah it's it's not like normal or natural because you can't have children that way there are so many things we get pleasure out of that don't end in pregnancy like a book is wrong because you don't get written from it no ah so yeah yes yeah no no absolutely they do apply but there is something to be said about somebody that is completely homosexual they are not going to reproduce so intuitively and not really thinking too much about it I think it's very easy to see that and go how can that be natural you evolution can't select for that because they're not reproducing people can have children like they just they could get a surrogate they can get white there is and we will tap into those and just as there are below that I've been watching this how come how could that arise through nature yeah exactly I mean would you guys agree with me when I say that I can I can understand why that argument seems persuasive when presented that way I don't buy it I know how to deal with it and we're going to do so in this in this in this video but to me that's a strong argument when without understanding the context of things without having a firm grasp on evolution I can see why that convinces non-religious people actually I think maybe if there's a species your only goal is to reproduce and create more species but if you look at where humanity is right now everyone reproducing isn't good for us we're already overpopulated so our only goal isn't to create more children we have no life so yeah yeah I still don't find it convincing okay so would you say that if for example every species sorry every member of a species was homosexual was not interested in the opposite sex at all and we wasn't in a state such as humanity where we can have pregnancy induced by other means would you not say that that at least looks like it's not pertaining to evolution by natural selection considering the evolution by natural selection the driving force yes so from that like the things that you raised or absolutely legit and would definitely tap into those but I just wanted to basically still man the argument as it work because I do see why that feels like a strong argument and I've had a very very smart friend of mine buy into that before and it took the conversation that's about to happen now to convince him otherwise and it's not because he's stupid or anything it does seem pretty pretty natural in that I just like seeing these isolated our arguments and not putting them into context yeah and that's that's great that's why you often get to the right answer because you think oh there's more to this let's put it in context and that's a good thing that's that's the nature of a critical mind and that's good I can see how it might be a like if you don't stop and you don't think it through and if you don't understand the mechanisms of evolution at the gene level and like Dawkins really goes into this particular issue in The Selfish Gene but if I can see how it might be a difficult argument to overcome as far as you know where did homosexuality come from it's not really an argument for the morality of it though yeah that's a great point and these are all things I want to touch on in just a second but you're absolutely right conflating whether or not it's natural with morality is is the appeal to nature fallacy and it needs to be shot down any time it's seen and the way you can do it although it shuts people off is just say rape is natural normally they go I don't bring that in that's offends me it's a nasty word well what you're saying is disgusting so I'm going to use terms like this - or cannibal is your attention visors and range losses that will eat their own like they'll may get them and then they'll eat their partner yep exactly so before we delve into all of this I have a I have a Rachel style renewal inspired quiz for you both okay I hope I hope it do you justice rage I'm well you're gonna have to pretend I do of the following six species which one doesn't practice homosexuality penguins cockroaches llamas American house spiders salmon or whiptail lizards gonna give you those again I'm surprised you have two spiders in there because I didn't realize that spiders are hello I say two spiders in there well I would definitely say Angelo's oh did I just completely have a brain for it there you made that up to be fair people are gonna be able to go right I'm gonna go back and despite me now as if I didn't say it they're gonna be going I'm writing a column through them again okay okay okay off the following six species which one doesn't practice homosexuality penguins cockroaches llamas American house spiders salmon or whiptail lizards I think penguins do okay all right so you reckon penguins do I think llamas do yep okay what what so why can you both see penguins and llamas having homosexual intercourse I'm trying to think how it's like with a spider it hmm don't they specific spiders but don't they like lay egg sacs and then are that today mate first oh no way the egg sacs yeah they mate first and then they can lay the fertilize the eggs I said I should say I don't know for all cases but I do know that certainly a lot of spiders reproduce that way I'm revealing my ignorance on insect biology I guess they're not insects they're arachnids or I should say the streamers doesn't have to in spiders are not insects they are yeah and I called I stopped myself but did you did you you you were well in there yeah cockroaches I think that is an insect though that that falls in yeah yeah so we got pet penguins cockroaches llamas America and how spiders salmon and whiptail lizards which one of those doesn't practice homosexuality salmon I'm just gonna say someone too because they say llamas I think probably do because again they're mammals so they're a little bit more likely to because a lot of mammals do cockroaches I don't they like read quite a lot so I think they would be likely to just kind of go for any sexual act see one once a cockroach is pregnant it just produces babies for the rest of his life yeah if my memory serves me correctly but they do actually have to get pregnant once see salmon I kind of think don't they do that thing where they kind of spit out the eggs and then get another guy to come along and fertilize them so I think like maybe I'm the groom maybe they don't because I'm not sure they even have actual like intercourse nope fair enough okay so you're both going for salmon the the answer you're not going to like me for this is is none of them it's a trick question they are all homosexuals they like tens of thousands of species practice homosexuality I know that was very mean of me I do have some caveats to add which ties in to what you guys were saying so while mammals birds and pretty much any social species practices homosexuality purposely there's a lot of evidence that indicates that most insects arachnids and fish do it only by an accident and the reason for this is when there's certain pheromones present the male's almost always go for the females so that's an interesting one so when we'll go back to the definition of homosexuality that the definition that we used encompasses people doing accidentally or I should say animals doing it accidentally and so they are conducting homosexual practice there whereas when it comes to social species it is deliberate so when you say accidentally are you saying that like if maybe that there's a a male that gets covered in female pheromones and then yeah that's it's approached by another male yeah people going up to someone may see a club and being like they're attractive but not knowing what I guess so I mean I mean you gotta be drunk for that this reminds me of like the ants that like if one of them is diseased or like dead or something then the other ants will take it out of the the nest and throw it outside but if one of the ants that's like doing that somehow gets covered and or gets you know sprayed with or something but the pheromones of this dead ant then like the other ants can't tell the difference and they'll take the live int and drag it out and toss it out and they'll keep tossing it out until the the pheromones wear off yeah that makes I didn't know that that's fantastic but I do know the insects are very heavy heavily interdependent especially social insects on pheromones pheromones are play a massive role and we've despite us particularly although of course they're arachnids they have a similar thing and as soon as the male's figure out and it's normally through pheromones from what the studies are showing that it's a male they're not interested they want females but when it comes to birds and mammals particularly anything that's a social species that seems to be the clue a social species it's practice and it's and it's like a 10% of the population and it seems so strange but it's just the case I mean if you have a pet dog you may have seen that this is entirely but Steve it sounds like what you're telling me is that if I was an insect and those pheromone infused Body Wash products would actually work the kiss they would they would it would be great that's that's how you would get laid as an insect so um yeah you put you I'd say I will say that you passed my quiz because the quiz was impossible now before we get into the science I've got another question for you and that is why is this question even relevant today like why is it a thing I mean you touched on the answer earlier it seems to be religious yeah well essentially it's it is its religion am specifically it's actually Abrahamic religion so there is there is some sects in other religions for sure that are against homosexuality but if you want serious opposition to it it is in the form of Judaism Christianity and Islam and there's good reason for that the books are very explicit with how to treat people you know they express disdain and disgust for homosexuality and if a man lies with another man as one lies with a woman they should be it's an abomination and they should be stoned to death and put to death yeah exactly you know and if you're somebody that really takes the Bible seriously and you read that verse you know I think it's in Leviticus I might not be but if you read that and is proposed as and it is given as an edict then you're gonna take it seriously and that's that's largely why there's such a big taboo an issue around the topic or has been because you know we were pretty much solving that I don't remember when America legalized a homosexual marriage but it wasn't too long ago if I remember I think it was 2016 if I'm not mistaken and actually I had I was well there are different states that had it legal before it was federally legal yeah and then they made it like over Texas well I was in I was living in Texas at the time and I was in a loft downtown that had like it was one of those like lofts that has like it's a long the building is a long strip that has coffee shops and bars and restaurants down below on the first floor and there was a gay bar at the end on the corner and literally I want to say it was like the day or the weekend after it became legalized the bar just caught on fire and burned down for some odd reason well and and I was I was living in the built like I was asleep and I wake up and I smell like smoke and and all this stuff and I like I run to the window and I look outside and there's like fire trucks I was like holy crap like nobody nobody even like knocked on my door and stuff like I like had to you know leave and go find a hotel or something for the you know it's crazy but yeah you get black lashes I know that when I'm like I'm not even gay and homophobes almost killed me that would be written on your tombstone man but yeah it is interesting to know how relevant my question is to particularly the Abrahamic religions because as you probably both know Spartan men you know like the film 300 etc they were and still are heralded as some of the toughest strongest and most courageous men are pretty much of all-time and they frequently practiced homosexuality and actually promoted it because they believed it was not only natural but that it was a fantastic form of bonding it wasn't taboo it was actually a thing was promoted the same is true with the ancient Romans and indeed pretty much any society and culture before them such as the Mesopotamians the indigenous peoples of the Americas and likely but not conclusively the ancient Egyptians there's there's mixed evidence on that one and there's actually not a lot of lot of evidence in evil ways favor just because of the records etc but it's it seems to have just been accepted until the last 2000 years with the prevalence of that pressure from from mainly Abrahamic religions but religion in general and when you couple that with what what was said before where you can make a compelling argument without context of saying the how can homosexuality be natural when it literally ceases reproduction you can see why it's had a grip on society like it has I don't know if you both agree but I can see what's going on there yeah I actually like I only found this out recently but I had been told when I first start my youtube channel that a lot of people who wrote that homosexuality is wrong in the Bible said that they wrote it because and it was like meant to kind of save lives because you know gay sex can be dangerous and that sort of thing yeah apparently it was actually only written because the writers of Leviticus we're trying to condemn this like other like group of people or the society or the tribe or whatever and they practice homosexuality and so as a result they were trying to condemn everything they did which included homosexuality and that's why they weren't like God hates homosexuality so these guys are wrong and don't do anything they do apparently that was the reason they wrote it in Leviticus and so that's interesting I know I know it's in the Torah mm-hmm as well which is dated back of course that was a there was a lot of cultural warfare going on at the time related to you know religious identity so like you have if you read the Old Testament initially it is a very Paulo like polytheistic religion you know like why does it say you shall have no other gods before me why does it say don't craft images of other gods why does it say that God is a jealous God why does it start off you know Genesis starts off you know we shall let us make man in our image and like there's no mention of Jesus there's no mention of the holy spirit throughout the entire Old Testament at all and you know even the the so-called prophecies about him you know you go in and you read the context and it's like it's not talking about Jesus it's talking about like something completely different and and it's like you you have kind of a this polytheistic religion that then all of a sudden that goes from you know I'm the king of the gods which all of the other religions around at the time would have you know the head god you know like Zeus or what's-his-name the Roman Jupiter yeah brain fart sorry and so you had this this happening and you know all throughout the region where you know you'd have first you'd have kind of polytheism and then you'd have like some God at the top and then it would kind of shift into monotheism and it happened with the Egyptians as well with rah and so for for the Egyptians kind of like polytheistic system and then it was Tutankhamun's father he like came along and tried to be like no there's only one God and he like tried to get everyone to fold this one God and then when he died Tutankhamun came along like yeah we're just gonna revert that for a while that's interesting really interesting yeah the Israelites though one of the ways that they were able to kind of solidify their identity into you know say like have some point of like unity for them to form around was like you know this is our God and it's better than all the other ones and we're gonna crush them in warfare and like it almost kind of looks like sports mascots you know how you have like you know we're gonna crush that the Broncos and we're the you know whatever the Ravens are the Cowboys or whatever and it's it's like you know our team and our symbol and our mascot and all this is better than yours and like they're forming around this particular identity and then when they would crush them then their gods would get destroyed their idols would get destroyed and you know they would you know prop up their own in its place as kind of something to unify you know around so it's it's interesting how you have you're talking about homosexuality in that light where it's like you know trying to kind of demonize the other the outsider yeah yeah I just I find it so bizarre though that so many people today are trying to like spread this honestly really hateful like ideal that you have like homosexuality is wrong just because a few people wrote some books and wrote some lines to try and like condemn a little group of people like it's like such a silly little thing to base like your whole life upon now and the fact that you're trying to like stop people having not a normal life a normal relationship a family just because of something a couple of people wrote to get back at like a little tribal something it's insane to me and it's like people forget the human element to these things they don't actually think there's a human element problem they think there's divided these are divine edicts written by the Creator at the universe so if the creator of the universe does say do not sleep with another man it's unnatural you will be burnt for it I mean I can understand why people who believe that which is just a different topic in general how the hell they get to that it's indoctrination etc people who earnestly believe that I can see that they think and they are in their minds helping people by saying don't do that we have to have laws against this because if this premise is true if if this God exists if this edik is accurate then I'm saving you from just a punishment so much worse than you can even conceive like a lot of people don't really realize infinity in hell like permanently in hell you can't conceive how bad that is it's the worst you think of the worst you can possibly think and then multiply it by a billion billion billion billion billion and you'd have to keep going like it's just it's nonsense is absolute crap but people who believe this I feel bad for them you know it's a fundamental failure of our pattern seeking recognition you know abilities where you'll see you see this a lot in the South here in the US where you'll have you know a particular incident that happens like a weather pattern you'll have like a hurricane that comes in or you'll have a flood or an earthquake and it's almost immediately afterwards that you have pastors coming out that say you know oh this happened because of the gays it happened because they're you know engaging in these behaviors and it's it's it kind of goes back to you know Sodom and Gomorrah and people thinking like God is punishing you for you know these particular actions and I think that that that's amazing because if I could control the weather with my penis I would turn gay so fast I'm like oh man like I I went on on vacation to you know I don't know insert crappy town here and it was just absolutely awful and the customer service was abysmal and like you know what they need they need a tornado or something I'm just gonna go like have some wonderful gay sex and you know do it in their hotel and then just watch the aftermath it'll be a new form of warfare you know it like North Korea would be just having some serious anal sex in order to direct it towards the u.s. they're all facing in the same direction to direct God's wrath and anger that's a different type of cannon so I'm so fabulous I just leveled up ours are off the church I mean joke jokes aside I do if you read you can get a legitimate reading off or interpretation off off the book of the religious symbols in general off saying those things so when although it is batshit crazy like absolute nonsense and hurtful nonsense to a lot of people I don't question really often that people genuinely believe what they're saying they do actually think they're helping but to move the topic forward just Before we jump back into that because we can we can definitely go into that I mean all three of us have a channel which is you know fighting against such depravity as long as I can come back to the them thinking that they're helping yes absolutely we can come back to that for sure so I wanted to touch on The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins which is something you mentioned Thomas so are you both for wear of The Selfish Gene I read it a few years ago so I a refresher yeah also I mean I I don't actually read often and I'm Dyslexic and it takes me such a long time but I tend to digest things through auditory audio sorry I should say audio terms yeah I quite enjoy an audiobook put on double speed and go to the gym that's a good way for me to digest information you leave your kindred spirits yes but not in that way and I just like I so now I can't do it I have to read this physically there's some great tests I always fortunate enough to get in University but you can do them online and they basically will give you a level of different learning techniques such as auditory and repeating and there's just as many and they will rank you on which one you before most sufficiently on and so you can get an idea of I respond very well to this so some people will respond very well to watching a video some people will respond well to reading well you're fit you can figure it out through there and then you can like utilize which one works most intuitively with you mine is watching videos and listening to audio I can I can take that in very well but reading is very very bad so a lot of the books that I recommend people actually I haven't read but I have digested a lot of content yeah that's the same thing it is it is I mean just like your information if your parents read a book to you as a kid you don't say like you know I that book you say oh we read that together exactly yeah I I've always been like a reader and I have to take notes as I'm reading to take things in but even when I was a kid I like read along with my parents as they're reading books to me which is I think how I ended up reading so early when I was a kid because like my parents would point along with the words and I just send it reading I'm picking them up and sometimes I feel like I can't done with this paper you can turn over to the next one I'm a slow reader because my brain daydreams and I need to force myself I need to go through some speed reading stuff and like force myself to like just read faster but if I like if I started thinking about something like my mind starts going in all kinds of different directions I'm like oh that means this and that and but if I'm listening to an audiobook on double-speed it doesn't allow me to do that because it just keeps plowing forward speaking of speaking of plowing forward well so when it comes to how can we actually show the homosexuality is natural that it's selected for by by natural selection one of the most important tools and most important discoveries is really the self-esteem by Richard Dawkins so for anyone who is unaware Dawkins proposed a gene-centred view of evolution as opposed to the then accepted individual centered view so questions such as why when you decide to help a child child's in the road and you run across and you grab the child and you stop the child from being ran over you just put your own life at risk to save a stranger he's not your child you don't share like genetic you're not closely related in that sense that was proposed and said that kind of goes in the face of the idea that we've evolved to you know successfully reproduce ourselves and for a long time people weren't really figuring out how you square that circle well as Dawkins showed you don't actually square that circle at all what actually matters is the gene centered view rather than the individual centered so that person going across the road and saving that child is helping himself reproduce successfully because they're so closely genetically related those genes which happen to embody that one individual saves the genes of which are very much the same that embodies someone else it doesn't have to be exactly the case and then when you have this view of evolution all of a sudden lots of stuff in nature makes sense Abby when a bee stings you she dies in most cases part part of it too is like he talks about how you know you're much more likely to save your own children because you share genes with them they carry your genes if let's say that my sister has several children my nephews and nieces I still share a lot of genes with them you know because I share a ton of gene yet my sister and then I share you know half the amount of those with with my nephews and nieces and so like if you share that there's kind of like a cost-benefit analysis like saving four of your nephews and nieces is kind of like you know saving one of you or something like it's you know so you can kind of start doing the math of like what percentage of your genes do you share with them and like you have incentive like a genetic incentive to protect your offspring for these genes to to continue to perpetuate it's not a conscious thing but it's like at a population level if these genes are a reaper using and they're going throughout you know mutating reproduce now they're more likely to stay in the population if you're protecting those that share these genes with you the ends exactly with with humans we've reached a point where we can kind of overcome our genes where certain traits like we traditionally lived in super small tribes and so we had you know most of the people around us we were related to and so it kind of became this population level thing where you want to help all of those around you and then it as we as our tribe expanded Peter Singer talks about like the expanding circle like altruistic circle as we you know those traits kind of stuck with us and we developed the ability to think rationally and think critically and actually not just operate like mechanical you know gene Factory yeah and I would add on that that that's if the gene centered view pretty much explains exactly why racism is ingrained in us etc because people of the same color for example tend to have closer genes to you you just you've just evolved to naturally want to have outer altruism and be benevolent towards people who are close to you and when it becomes someone who's a different color it's a natural instinct to not be as generous in those cases now again we're not appealing to nature to say this is the natural this is how it's done in nature therefore this is how it should be it's not it's a bad thing but it explains why these why racism is intuitive why it just it happens in like every culture it doesn't go because this tribalism we've evolved for it and in my case explains even more why we don't really give a flying about animals that are really close to us such as pigs people do not care where is AE it falls into the gene-centred view of evolution so though it also explains why theft and why violence is is natural but at the same time we because we've developed you know a complex brain that's able to to kind of understand like what would make a better society we can form societies and have ideas you know that this mimetic evolution this evolution of ideas to like what we don't want to live in a society where oh hey because I look different than you I'm gonna be treated different than you like we can form societies that are much more structurally cohesive yeah get rid of you know theft and violence and racism and hatred and bigotry exactly we're fighting against our nature essentially we're fighting against something that's allowed us to survive allowed us to succeed we're now in essence fighting against because we realize that when certain principles are taken to their conclusion the what feels natural isn't right and we have to apply that logically consistently across the board you can't make arbitrary distinctions and luckily we've done that with race it's definitely in the West where it's like no race is not a thing you cannot even though it might be intuitive to you you cannot because there's no reason to do it other than the fact that you've just evolved to be a tribalistic person and it's not a fault of yours everyone has it and the people that say that they don't they do like almost everybody has it to some extent if I were to steal something of yours I might be a little bit better off having you know you had that new thing but at the same time you know we put social stigma and consequences and you know criminal punishments and stuff on that to dissuade people from doing it because society as a whole would completely break down and crumble yes every single person was stealing things and we didn't have property rights and we didn't have any kind of rule of law exactly and this falls into just like secular morality in general which we should absolutely do an episode on I think because you can provide these justifications from the state of nature and and logic and consistency rather than what a lot of people think and that is that it's cultural relativism it's just made up it's not there is really good reasons for why certain things are the way they are so that I actually do think that we should definitely hear an episode on that if you guys are up for that but I just want to say I want to provide some hard evidence for homosexuality like some studies etc so you guys aware of genetics somewhat some are cool so epigenetics is the study of how external factors can alter the expression of an organism's genes so yeah no fern I didn't know the name I knew that it was a thing as well a while back so a good example is a queen ant so for a combination of how much nutrition they've received and pheromones and temperature etc so it's all unconscious depending on factors like that this will alter the embryo that she produces or some of the embryos that she produces and the result will either be a worker ant or a soldier ant so she doesn't know it but when there's a situation where they're in dire straits it might be that because of the particular combination of nutrition and pheromones etc she will produce more soldier ants now that's an example of an environmental factor altering the the expression of genes and exactly what happens so there's lots of examples of epigenetics like that and it's a really interesting field that's it's developed but it's it's also underdeveloped it reminds me a little bit of abiogenesis in the sense that it is underdeveloped and most people think but most people think it's more underdeveloped than what it is if that makes sense like what what I did with abiogenesis when Thomas was teaching us about that I assumed that there was less than what actually we know there's a hell of a lot where scientists say when scientists say we don't know how it happened they're not saying we don't know anything about how it happened they're saying like we can't conclusively say a hundred percent for sure that this is the only way that it did happen but we know that it can happen this way exactly and science is always in that form of humility because they're afraid of embarrassment unlike other ideologies well and you know what with you know yeah a fair amount of certainty so we we can be like 99% sure and still not know conclusively yeah and also on topic of knowledge and epistemology in general I I maintain that there is actually only one thing you can possibly know with 100 certainty and everything else is a maximum of 99.9% that's that's it you can't get to what cogito ergo sum yeah cookie - are you know that at least in fact some form you exist that's all you know yeah yeah you just you know the consciousness can't be an illusion but everything else everything you could be wrong about but that's a topic for another time as well very interested in it really frozen an interest in hammer into the works and so I'm sure you've both thought about yourselves but I want to give the human example with them epi epigenetics this this blew my mind when I learned this I think kind of like stem cells and stuff and change the environment they're in they become that kind of cell so they did one way they got and stem cells and expose them to moving blood and they became kind of like arterial cells is this related to that kind of thing no that sounds fascinating that's really that's really interesting it Minds me actually I remember hearing haven't seen studies where people have said although this is probably nonsense cuz I just haven't checked this up but people go if you eat a lot while pregnant that that might change the expression of the gender before before the three months etcetera I don't know if that's true but I do know that there's certain factors that absolutely do contribute to the child so people that are grotesquely overweight they don't do their children a service in the sense that the children actually are born with different fat cells there's evidence for stuff like that so that's an epigenetic factor that's changing things there's also a study of war zones where in times of famine the children that were born afterwards were more likely to be obese after the famine was over because their bodies like while they were in the womb there were certain chemicals that they were exposed to from like natural chemicals from the mother that like basically we're like this world is gonna be tough you better store all your fat and eat as much as you can that's fast now I didn't know that it makes sense it absolutely makes sense that you can have fine tuning I mean that's better personification but you know you are affected by you know yeah but we've all we've all always known that well we haven't always known but we do know very certainly the that factors such as that contribute and change the way in which someone is born and consequently how they live their lives but studies have found it's been repeated so many times that it's now known as the fraternal birth water effect if you don't know this you'll find this interesting very interesting if you do then pretend you do anyway but studies have found that once a woman has given birth to a male the chances of her next male being homosexual are increased relative to the baseline population by 33 percent that's insane I blew my mind when I learnt it because that's hard evidence for as soon as a woman has produced a male a male son the next one stands a higher chance of being homosexual but that's telling you that there's something going on there and and and it does it sends home I don't tell my older brother that he's gonna tell me that I'm 33% gayer than me yeah well yeah exactly I mean that's possible so if like the baselines 10% well the next one stands a 13% chance say point out though that it's it's not it's not an either/or it's not just like you know oh you're gay or you're not well yeah there's there's people who and and Kinsey did a bunch of studies on this I think it was in the early 90s or the 80s where he looked at maybe it was earlier than that but he brought in a bunch of people and he showed them different images some of them homosexual and some of them had heterosexual and he measured kind of the the arousal levels among people even who claimed to be heterosexual and found that there was kind of a spectrum that people it was almost extremely rare that someone was a hundred percent heterosexual or a hundred percent homosexual you know you're normally somewhere kind of in the middle so like is some people will say that they're bi and they're attracted to both well chances all right like even if you aren't actively attracted to the opposite sex there's probably still a little bit of like you see some nudity and it's kind of like oh whoa interestingly kind of you know but there's different there's different levels of that so there might be kind of like a 5% you know interesting you're like uh yeah not really my thing whatever you do you or there might be like oh my god I just need to like swallow all the now it's a very very much ingredients not it is very very much it's a good point to make most of the studies that are done are strictly on male homosexuality and there's just not enough studies that are done similar study done on daughters from from what I could find there isn't actually but I'd it is but female I did read somewhere else but I actually can't remember the source or I can't guarantee that this is ironclad there tends to be far more bicurious females than there are males but is that an expression of culture it's hard to tell this to as many factors etc I do it it is yeah it is I personally met a lot more bisexual women then I have men how much of that goes to the Abrahamic condemnation exactly so how was culture because I'm overly against it they're gay you know they turn out to be gay you have the wording if a man lies with another man it's an abomination like there's nothing there's nothing really inherently about women I mean it does say homosexuality like multiple places it just talks about homosexuality but then you have pastors who will kind of like they have to bend over backwards and go through loopholes to not be homophobic and they'll say things like oh it was referring to sex slavery and it was referring to pedophilia and these boys in the temple and like there's not really any indication that that's the case but if they're able to use that to justify being decent loving human beings and not be homophobes then like go for it I guess I'll be honest that type of Christian that type of person really me off I have more respect for the people which actually read it for what it is rather than somehow managed to do a back flip I mean it's more for me it's more convenient for society they seem like a more decent person by doing that but just drop drop the book I just can't help but it isn't that every every single Christian though cherry-picks to one extent or another like they'll say oh I agree with this verse but not that verse okay some of them do it by going through the verses and saying I realize deep down that that is wrong I'm gonna somehow have to square this circle and you know it's intentional there's only one way you can read it that way and that is by being dishonest whereís or just being ignorant whereas if you look at others such as you know the is it the Westboro Baptist Church that does a solid reading so a lot of people go they're very hateful and I just want to like say to them they're actually reading what the book says like it isn't a nice book it's a harsh barbaric disgusting outdated book nothing to base morality on it's a nasty thing but and when we all here in fall aren't we all grateful that two billion Christians and over a billion Muslims aren't reading their book literally like some of them are and those are the goals radicals like the problems with the fundamentals of the teaching itself see they say they are fundamentalists or radicalist what they're really saying is they take it seriously they actually read it they actually read what it says but I would rather have several billion moderates who aren't you know going out and like stoning people to death and throwing gays off of Route rooftops yeah yeah you know ideally I would get rid of the religion altogether but I would much rather have you know okay let me put it in other words then I I've Airy much appreciate that basically they don't read the book and they don't actually take it literally and somehow they do some cognitive bias and back flips mental back flips in order to read it another way it's very convenient it's very good but I would be lying if I said that I have more respect for those people I don't I just don't I respect people that actually take it seriously that actually read it if that God exists if it did write rewrite the Bible for example when we're talking about Christianity or Allah whenever it comes to the core you've got to take that seriously and the edicts in it need to be taken seriously and it's just I it's it's it's hard for me it's it's two things I definitely respect people that take it more more literally because even though they get labeled fundamentals they're just people that actually read the damn book whereas I do prefer people that don't take it seriously you know like there's a lot of Christians in England they don't really take it seriously but who am I to say that they're not a Christian some of them don't even they're not even sure if Jesus were as erected I think that's pretty critical to be a Christian but you know Who am I to say this so yeah I do agree with you that it's easier but I'd just be lying if I said that I don't have more respect for the people that take it seriously while there are passages like the no man shall I be the man thing there are a couple of cases where the words it's like a little bit ambiguous what the translation is so there is a specific word that a lot of people say this definitely means homosexuality but because this word in like it's like some kind of Greek or Arabic or something I don't know what it is exactly but we don't really have any other instances of that word being used we have nothing to compare it to you so there's a lot of debate about what it actually means some people think it means male rape some people think it means and and I'm having sex with a younger boy and other people just think it means just homosexuality and so in a lot of instances I kind of do understand why some people are a little bit iffy about it because we don't fully know what it was meant to originally mean but ya know I see you have like the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where like you know it's like oh no don't rape my male guests instead here have my daughters and rape them they're still virgins yeah yeah when I watch these decent yeah I mean watching otherwise decent people read that kind of stuff you know like this story of lot where people had turned to soul etc or even like the story of story of King David you know he has a child and God punishes David by killing the child this is not morality people shake have you lost your mind like why would you even worship that that's horrible it's just it's just scape going it's just not how it works but um yeah I evidently need to create a new video we're a match religion so we've with the fraternal birth water effect being in place I think it's fair it's more than fair to say that that's the answer homosexuality is natural and we can scientifically prove it it seems that while homosexuals can't procreate themselves within nature they facilitate and provide for heterosexuals that can and in doing this they increase the survivability of heterosexuals who have a chance of producing homosexual children so they succeed evolutionary obliquely rather than directly it's a bit like how when people say you have to spend money to make money that doesn't seem right but it is right considering the context and the circumstances that's the same of homosexuality well that's so if you have if just just to kind of hammer this point home as far as what what does that mean what are the ramifications of each successive male being more likely to be homosexual a homosexual if you think of it in terms of your in a tribe and there's a limited number of females and there's you know a certain number of males and if let's say that you have one son and he's you know he's straight and he's able to go and you know have his choice of the female to reproduce with and then you have another son and then another one and then another one and then all of a sudden you have like ten sons that are all vying for the same few females if if some of them were gay they would be more likely to it's like oh hey like let me take out take care of my nephews and nieces and let me have to take care of and it's like there there's less competition they're less likely to fight over the females they're less likely to kill each other over the females and more likely to help with raising their nephews and nieces and so they're more likely to then pass down their genes even though it's not through reproduction it's do their siblings the genes that they share with their siblings being passed down through their nephews and nieces yeah that's a great great point to hammer on you know just as just as a bee might sacrifice his life by stinging someone too I'm going near the nest but in doing that they actually preserve their genes because it's shared among the other bees and they're gonna be able to successfully reproduce the same as you as a result it's like if if there is a tendency like for 10% of the population to or that for there to be a 10% chance of you being gay or whatever the percent chance of of being gay and if you know you're more likely to be gay like the depending on birth order if this is being passed and like because this is in your genes and so you become gay it's not going directly through your lineage but you share those same genes and so like still that that likelihood of here's the percent chance of being gay or whatever like that's still being passed down through the population yep exactly so we've that settled I've got one last bonus question for you both it actually goes back to something you were saying earlier Thomas as a joke but here it is for you can you choose your sexual orientation mm I don't think so I think you can choose your sexual behavior yeah but now it's not your sexual orientation yeah you can't choose what you find attractive but you can choose to act on it or not but you can't you know it's controlled by your ego sorry it's controlled by your itch I'm curious though how much you can force yourself to think a particular way because you can't there is so much that you can do with brainwashing and and you know propaganda and stuff like that to the point where it's like in the last episode we talked about how culture can influence what you think is attractive like you know as a kid I mentioned that you know when I was younger I liked girls the same age as me and I wasn't really attracted to older women that had massive breasts but as I got older and people pointed out those traits and stuff I started to notice them more I started to see them more like there was some level of cultural influence on it you know some people find in some cultures bound feet that are in tiny shoes like attractive and so they'll crush their feet into these small shoes or they'll put giant rings around their next the necks of women and elongate them so like certain traits are seen as attractive and not and so I think some of it can be influenced but like if you're if you're just born and you're living your life and stuff like there-there is that genetic aspect that you have no control over if you're if you're a flaming homosexual and you you love people are the same sex like you know good luck changing it but how much of that was to do with like your age yeah so I don't judge me on this I watched a documentary about non-offending pedophiles and they tried to explain it as though I'm they had like an expert on there who was like you know shoot boy studied people and she said that in a lot of cases people stopped being attracted to people that say like 12 years old and they're attracted to people their age and then as they get older it's kind of like they're what they're attracted to kind of changes with them as they age so then at 20 you're attracted to people who at 20 at 30 year attracted people at 30 and so on but she said with pedophiles they get kind of stuck in that place so they might be like you know still 30 and attracted to like 12 year olds and I mean it's a problem but it's not really something they have control over so I'm wondering if later that was kind of just what you experienced all this like at 12 you were attracted to 12 year olds at 20 year to 20 year olds you know okay but what about people in different races who like and here's where I I would say that you know you may be right on that but also like growing up overseas I didn't really have a lot of black friends and I wasn't really attracted to black girls and then I came back to the states and I met some who were you know very attractive and I started to notice them more and so like what you know I I found that it seems that there's too many variables you know because it's just you can't really pinpoint it so for example when I was young I used to like the typical girl you know big breasts etc whereas as I got older I just I didn't really give a crap about those trades what I cared about is if they looked after themselves so they ate healthy if they went to the gym for some reason those traits were just really attractive to me now I can't pinpoint what that is I can't say it's because because I started reading certain magazines or something I know isn't acts I didn't read any magazines but you know what I'm saying it wasn't because I was exposed to certain things is it because I just aged and that was just the natural pattern of where my mind was gonna go as I got older or was it because I started valuing people who to look after themselves and because of that that came it there's so many variables are so many factors it's too hard to really pinpoint it but I think you're definitely right because you on the fact that you said if culture can and it does we know this for a fact can change what we find of try attractive you know such as Victorians liking overweight people what what's to say that it can't change your sexual orientation now I personally think that some people who are born in a certain way I don't think they've got a choice I think they can hide it they can choose their behavior but they are just they just like the opposite sex is there's nothing they're gonna be able to do outside ourselves or how far the one into the spectrum you fall exactly so I think you might be right but most everyone could be molded but some people were just fighting a real uphill battle like if you're born and you're for example I consider myself to be very straight I'm really not interested in the other sex sorry in my same sex but but I ask myself could I choose to like men well like you were saying I could choose to behave as such but I don't think I can I really don't think I could I'm not attracted but if if the taboo and the stigma was removed and you were born in Merida it was like a bonding activity and like the military or something like I would think because of the conditions and the way that I know myself and the fact that I am actually not really affected I'm obviously affected by culture but not greatly I'm really don't give a crap about any of those stigmas I think that if I was under such situations I might be forced to create a bond with someone else because it's just that's the practice but I know I don't know but I suspect strongly that I wouldn't like it as much as the next person the problem is is that there's so many variables that we don't know where that line is I do think that there's a gradient but I don't think it is all nurture I think nature plays a massive role in the most vital thing that nature does and that is reproduction so I think I think yeah I think well I'm human even if it was like III do think that nature plays a massive role but even if if culture does affect what we find attractive to say that you have a choice and that is absolutely absurd and because we're exposed to so many different things all throughout the day like we talked about in our last episode how marketing plays on the fact that we don't really have a choice and we're so vulnerable to messages and if if there's cultural influences all around us that are pushing us in one direction or another you don't really have a choice you don't really have you know you can't be like well I'm gonna I'm gonna suddenly think that I prefer v-necks to you know regular t-shirts or whatever yeah and it's like this you have preferences that are kind of your preferences now I think that there is a massive you know I just wanted to add can you choose your preferences yeah well and I think that comes down to like where do you fall on the spectrum if if let's say that you're you're 55% gay and you you you know but and you're maybe 45% attracted to someone of the opposite sex is you then someone like that they may be the ones who are like they're so close that they're more bisexual but they lean a little bit more homosexual and so then but then for them it's like it's it's not as big of a deal to be like yeah well I'm just gonna have a sexual relationship so they may be seen as you know these religious gay conversion therapies success stories of this person that used to be attracted to this opposite sex and now we've saved them it's like no they still have that same amount of attraction you've just repressed and maybe you've just rest well done well you've suppressed it but then you have other people who go through those same you know conversion experience as the gay conversion therapy or electroshock therapy which is horrific but you you have them go through something like that and maybe they're 95 percent gay and they come out of it and they're like I'm not any different than I was before I just feel like a piece of and I feel you know judged and awful and like I'm gods failure and so I'm gonna go kill myself and you know I don't want to go to hell or something for a third kind accidentally sinning this makes you answer question because I saw an advert for a documentary the other day and called something really trashy like my husband's gay and it's about like really fundamentalist Christian men who say yeah I'm gay I'm attracted to men but I choose to live my life married to this woman and we have like three kids together and I kind of is like you know you they talk in this like like like a sigh only saw like a five-minute kind of he's a clip for it but they talk about how yeah I'm attracted to men but I know it's an abomination so I choose not to do it and then the woman's like oh yeah well sex like this buying we have sex and this I'm like I kind of wondered it like these men say they're happy but if they're spending so much of their life suppressing a pardon of themselves that they they know is that how happy can they really be you know and I just want to see what you guys thought of that think of it this way if Steve you're not attracted to guys at all and and I would take it that the thought of gay sex probably kind of grosses you out a little bit it's it's not something that you're into and that's fine that's that's like but imagine it this way to someone who's gay the thought of straight sex may feel exactly the same way it does yeah and so so if you know again depending on where they fall on that spectrum but if if you lived in a society where everything was suddenly reversed and all of a sudden its stigmatized to have straight sex and you're you know you don't want to have you know everyone in around you saying you know you're an abomination and you're evil in your spawn of the devil and stuff just because you feel that attraction to women and you're kind of repulsed by gay sex but you force yourself to be in this this relationship with someone having this sex that kind of grosses you out and turns you off and is not your thing and you know you're in this uncomfortable situation that society is placed on you because you can't just be yourself you can't just love who you want to love it doesn't affect anyone else it doesn't influence anyone else you've just two people having a consensual relationship where they love each other that's amazing like why can't we have more of that because it's because if the books are true then then there's real consequences that's the problem this is again where religion things up it just it like you said there's no problems with it you know there's just this it's just what someone wants to do consensually with someone else but the only way you can jump in and somehow make this a problem and claim jurisdiction over their experience Lee truly on who they can sleep with n't and in what position is through religious ideology because it's faith driven rather than evidence driven and they say oh we're doing we're doing good for society because otherwise God would punish and judge our whole cities so we have to kill the gays yeah it's like witches it is exactly burning witches you know the problem is just that people believe the stuff and there's good reason where's not good reasons for the beliefs but there's good reasons for them believing in that's that they just take these books eriously and they actually read them rather than come up with cafeteria Christianity so yeah it does fall into that I do think it's very very bad yeah I was gonna say so I actually made a video on this like last week because you know Kristen from girl defined she is extremely homophobic on her blog and she goes on about like the sneaky homosexual agenda and all this stuff and like I I made that exact point that you did Thomas about how what if she was placed in a society where she had to not to be crude but she had to look for joiners every day to be accepted into heaven how would she feel about that and I made all these points I'm like I said to it I was like I can see why she wants to use the Bible to back up my points it because if you take the Bible out of this there is no reason to be against homosexuality you look at this from like an emotional you know loving other people perspective know what to do home there's no reason to be against it if you look at it from a logical rational perspective no reason to be against it the only real reason you can have to not want anyone to do it is to say that God wouldn't like it but then I have to say if a God was real and he was this big supernatural being who creates an entire universe and everything in it do you think you'd really care where one person put that penis the word gay agenda - it's like gay agenda like what do they think that this gay agenda encompasses it's like gay people want equal rights they're not trying to get some type of superior status we're like we want to have you know you have marriage we want to have super marriage like you have gay sex - it's like no if you think that gay sex is gross here's a solution for you don't do it it's even worse they say you're stepping on our right to claim jurisdiction over your rights that's actually what said is like you're stopping us from practicing Christianity in some extent it's like no I'm stopping you from making them practice Christianity because they don't buy into that oh yes there is I was watching this this what's his name Steven Crowder he's like this right-wing yeah died he does this this thing he goes to college campuses and you know changed my mind and he talks about it and like he was talking about um trans rights and stuff and he's like well you know we don't determine laws we don't base laws over like some you know off case some like you know non almost non-existent case some small tiny little fraction of society I'm like actually the measure of a society's morality is how do they treat their minorities how do they treat the weakest individuals it's not just hey I'm bigger than you I'm stronger than you like I'm some authoritarian role I'm gonna get my way no you can tell which societies are decent places to live in based off of if you're the least privileged if you're the you know you have the least rights and the least power and everything or not the least rights but if you have like you're in some you know off case are you treated like a decent human being if if you're born with some type of defect are you taken to the edge of a cliff and thrown off of it or do people have compassion and treat you like a decent human being and that's where like it frustrates me it's like no gay people they're not asking for special rights or special privileges or something they're just saying like we want to be treated well to you like we want to be loved - we don't want to be stigmatized and hated on just treat us like humans I'd say well I'll conclude this with the best argument I've actually heard against same-sex marriage and that is the same-sex divorce will be really eventful imagine that gets quickly like that's that's kind of like an interesting thing there like a lot of people assume that like a marriage is gonna be between like two proper sassy like overly feminine men all about just to normal women that probably wouldn't get well well it's to women as as someone who's been through it a regular divorce there's no such thing as a pretty divorce I mean like yeah there's cordial breakups and stuff but it's still like hey like we committed to each other you know allegedly for life and loved each other and all of a sudden you're splitting up and there's lawyers involved and stuff in it nice what was his name now you're you're absolutely right it's not it's not a great affair to go through I imagine anyway I fortunately not had to go for it so on that note I'm going to conclude by just repeating that homosexuality is natural and there's there's scientific evidence for it there isn't proof in the sense of like absolute knowledge but we've been through this before that's not how science works it works under a humility of saying there's a lot of evidence in favor for it and the assertion that it's not natural comes from basically Abrahamic religion some sects of Hinduism etc this there is religion it's basically a religion based argument and religion just doesn't hold any sway because it doesn't have at least in the realm of logic and reason and rationality because it doesn't participate in those things it's it's faith-based so so with that I shall say thank you everyone for listening to us take care rate us on iTunes if you'd be so kind we'd really appreciate that and join us next week for the rascal Rachel Oates we haven't have you decided yet on what you're going for the future tune in for that that's a bombshell that's kind of amazing this has been an absolute blast and now we want you to join in the conversation over on the here-and-now Facebook and Twitter pages or follow us on Pinterest and Instagram if you just want some of the dankest of science he means if you like one of our particular styles check out each of our YouTube channels Rachel Oates rationality rules by Stephen Woodford and holy kool-aid by me Thomas Westbrook to find all of our episodes show doubts contact information and more or pawn over to our home base the here in hakam if you enjoyed this episode and want us to succeed in spreading the love of science you can help us out by giving us a 5 star review on iTunes or stitcher and to all our friends and family listening thank you for spending this episode with us we'll be back to explore another exciting big idea next week now go create something magnificent

Channel: The Here and How Podcast

Views: 2,540

Rating: 4.9771428 out of 5

Keywords: is homosexuality natural, evolution homosexuality, gay evolution, science, technology, big ideas, podcast

Id: jyJs2ua8Jzk

Length: 81min 5sec (4865 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 07 2018