Interview with Burton Schuman, a WW II Veteran. CCSU VHP

the 100th infantry division anyway it was in World War Two in the European theater the eto and what was the highest rank G hey Pepe isn't that can you technical sergeant and all right that's three start three three bands on the top and two on the bottom three out so you know yeah three up two down yeah and and what General locations did you serve what countries in Europe France and Germany now let's start at the beginning of your story mr. Schumann yeah we drafted or did you enlist I enlisted and what are we living at the time I was living in Passaic pas si I say New Jersey and you recall the date it was on 19 1943 in November of 1943 now why did you join the throws I felt obligated to join the service I felt it very necessary with the axis in Germany and becoming stronger stronger and taking over in any of those countries in Europe and I felt the need to serve my country and why did you I I thought I just in the back of my mind thought that the army would be better suited for my type of personality I didn't I don't like ships too much and I thought if it would be best if I stayed on the graph and there are not yeah now what would your first days of service life well after you enrolled in the Army did you go straight to boot camp well we went to a Fort Dix and there the transition took place they removed all of our civilian clothing issued all of our army and necessary equipment if we needed in clothing they gave us an army classification test which I think had a significant role sometimes in where they would place you in the service now after you took that test well it took it wasn't exactly at that particular time we had six weeks of basic training and which you know at that particular time they were try to review the test that you took some of your background if you had any college background and they would they would try to assign you to where they felt you you you would fit emotionally and with technically and and so forth so we took it took place after basic training the regimentation was a little difficult to get used to but when I look back I think the influence was with all the other 34 men I had in the barracks with me there were very little complaints we just didn't we had to do we accepted the regimentation I enjoyed the the outdoors you know we did a lot of exercising and instruction so I I felt that I just fit in and I think it had 18 you know your mindset is different anyway you know so most of the men in your barracks draftees are volunteers I would I would say most would draftees most of these and was there a difference in Outlook you really noticed between draftees or volunteers no I didn't notice I I know that the morale was was was very was very good I don't know of anybody who felt the stress of the transition now they might have but of the people that I was closely knit with I I didn't detect anything like that at all yes III I do I get basic training what it was you know we just got we got used to the regimentation getting up at 6:00 with the roll call and whatever and I didn't mind the food at all and I can go on after basic training if you think that would be significant or do you want to stick to that or the basic training we we I sort of enjoyed that never it was handled too many firearms and that was interesting because they started with a 22 and then we went up to an m1 and then we we handled machine guns so I found that very interesting actually and I I enjoyed that that part of it do you recall what specific firearms the carbine m1 those are the only to the day that that required a grade or so they were interested in those two weapons we didn't fire any 45 pistols that was mostly the lawn belong to him one of the carbine really as an NCO no no I wasn't I I had my m1 during the whole time but as the story goes on I think you'll understand why okay now do you remember any of your basic heavy instructors we had yeah we had a Ostrowski lieutenant Ostrowski lieutenant Carr keer our and let me say Getti a sergeant get e GE TTY and the company commander was old and small inclusive of doing basic or you who want to include thee or do they follow you later on service no they didn't know none of them that I had basic training with Lou and ended when we were reassigned there wasn't anybody who I took basic training with it was scattered over the entire division and so it sounds like you were able to get through basic all right dizzy were you able to keep in touch with your family at all yes we can make a phone call what writing letters was the primary way of communication we would get a hand I think we had after basic training I don't remember recall we had I think we had 10 days after basic training to go back home so after boot camp where are you well we we stayed and trained for about 17 about 16 months we stayed at Fort Jackson in South Carolina going through all types of classes and so forth then we went to on Tennessee maneuvers which was assimilated battleground they divided the the infantry into a red and green and we went then we went to Fort Bragg for additional training I had quite an extensive training regimen yes I in spite of the fact that these that the government was in need of infantry troops all over the world actually I have to give them credit they did not cut back on anything this the necessary education and training that the men needed they did not rush through getting that under division overseas I'm sure those skills yes they did well after basic training when I said that they that's when they decided to filter out the group and assign them to whether it be artillery or the infidel or cotton or whatever it might be I was very fortunate in that if you're interested in that part of the story after basic training okay after basic training I had a year of year of college and I was majoring in art okay it affected me to a degree that really led me to a fantastic position in the service what was your duty I was the head cat aquifer in the g3 section g3 intelligence yes that came about the very interesting way that I after basic training I was assigned to Division Headquarters at the hunt division but I I didn't have a specific position at that time I just went through with the daily exercises and regimentation I didn't know what where I was going in one day the captain smoked called me in he said I said you have a year of art background do you think you can draws some things and I said I think I can so he handed me a manual and he checked off what he wanted and I said well where do you want me to do this he said what we have a big hole that's going to be a tremendous meeting while the top brass is going to be there and it's an instruction for all the officers and enlisted men they're going to be about 300 people so the drawings have to be pretty large so he brought me into the hall and they had paper it out with 11 feet tall and I had to draw all these images on there but didn't know it I know it's it sounds like a fairy tale but it's I'm telling you that obviously I'm I'm telling you how this how this happened and I did a very good job and in the back of the room was a lieutenant colonel his name was Edwin and the next day the captain called me into the orderly room and he said this private I suggest is you have to report tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock in the g3 section you have to say Lieutenant Colonel penguin I said yes sir till 9 o'clock I went to him the colonel he I think he could frighten King come you know if he was a regular army man another no business coming to home fficer you know he said to me I like what I saw I'm going to sign you to my boy unit and he sent me to I spent two or three about a month and a half learning all about photography and aerial photo class where you study photos taken from up above and army signals army army the vacation markers German German symbols and how to convert kilometers miles it to kilometers because the Jeep didn't have that chain so yeah had to be careful what you were doing but anyway I uh I really had a wonderful job in the service they it were done with with with grid marks if you see these were not released maps that we work with they don't have relief maps we had a regular Road map that you get from the state of Connecticut but the more sophisticated ones have height of maybe maybe maybe areas that would go around a high ground what would would have circles around it and each in each line would indicate the footage of that of that high ground so if you had ten ten of those circles around a grant and it was each one was was two feet then you know that that hill is 20 20 feet the only significant thing about the aerial photos you can see shadows that's very important and if a gun a cannon is hidden in the woods it has to be further back than 20 feet because anything less than 20 feet no matter what the day will show a shadow on the ground of an image back there and I didn't believe that until we worked with the aerial photo mass so every gun crew knew new released their debut more than 20 feet back or a big tank or something like that yeah that's I didn't I but it that's what the aerial photos were showing they they add up they showed me the image of a German tiger tank you know that wasn't 20 feet back there you can see the whole image no matter what the if it's cloudy sunny raining it makes no difference yes we we had we had there's no there wasn't any sophisticated materials that we use this is another thing that people are shocked to hear the maps were the matte the maps were mounted on 4x8 plywood which were mobile they were on stands and that what the room that the room that isn't that the where these maps appear is called the war room technical terms those maps when we went to overseas work were put on a two and a half ton truck it didn't have any windows it was like a small van moving then on one one wall was a map that showed an area of maybe 100 miles and the other wall was a map that showed maybe 20 or 30 miles like a one to fifty thousand inch so the images were much larger those are the maps that we used when we were making the attack orders so would that truck keep up with the industry yes yeah there was always a distance obviously but it was mobile when when and the hundred division did a wonderful job I respect everything that these guys did when there was a I would say a tactical distance between the front line and our headquarters we would move pretty pretty close to the front lines now was this too a half-ton truck was that your that was my vehicle III wrote in that I drove it I had a driver and I slept him that I slept in that in that truck it was nice it was beautiful you know I had television you know I had a refrigerator and they feel that oh I had a wonderful time yeah yeah when we were in an area where the house was accessible I would I would sleep in the end in one of the German homes that have been cleared most of the time I slept on the trunk because the general would come in any time and he would you know it made no difference at time he would come in two three four o'clock good morning in Seattle so would you be perpetually from Mary house yes yes I would be entering I would indicate the information that was coming in from all the layers on officers from units that were tore left flank and from units to our right flank 44th division could have been in our left flank hundun 777th recon could have been in our right flank I also disseminated the information that they would bring in so how fresh with his intelligence it would be it would you describe how information would get okay the front line okay the front line it was it was a chain of command and this is what it sounds like a textbook philosophy but it really worked no phones no cell phones no radio no telephones okay company commander you have you have four commands you have a company commander battalion commander a regimental commander Division Headquarters there you all have the same map so the company commander would get as much as he could from platoon leaders which could which could vary that was the toughest way to get information as you well know I mean you know I put 200 guys good could lose 20 mana and then that the information wouldn't get back but if there was a breakthrough they would know about that that's why the maps were very very was a key weapon that we had and I wrote the article and I can't marvel I have had this work but it really really truly worked the company the company commander would go to the battalion commander and say here it is I lost one platoon the Germans haven't infiltrated he give that information to battalion battalion brings it in regimental headquarters regimental headquarters has a photographer he enters what these the company and battalion commanders bring in on his map then the layers of offers from regimental headquarters Thompson and Jeep and then he rides to our headquarters and he gives me his information and it could be with using coordinates so were you at the no no I would division this I was with the generals with General Staff g3 is the general stay over and I remember you told me off-camera in the interview why wouldn't you be in radio contact with the platoons interception Germans can intercept radio so everything had to be done by by courier lay it on people and that's it there was no other way of getting up transmitting the information and it was it went out when I look back in those days you know I was what 19 I didn't realize the significance of all of this but now that I've been out all these years and I've had contact with the carnival and so forth I realized what a what a great bunch of guys that I was with I really mean that they were absolutely fantastic so when you shipped out of the United States yeah that was a where did did you go to England no no we went straight to Marseille France now that was a interesting than - - there were there were I don't there might have been fifteen sixteen thousand on the ship it was the George Washington which was a captured German luxury ship from World War one so I would put luxury with a question but it's also the ship that President Harry Truman went over the world war 1 yeah he was a lieutenant in the infantry there we did nothing on the ship because the Mendon was so crowded that all we did was sleep at eat that's all that's all we could do how long did it 14 days we ran it to the North Atlantic schooling that was unbelievable but we would sleep with our clothes on there were four bunks and you could honey you know you could hardly move your head because the next guy was like that way to sleep without clothing on we could take our shoes off we get up in the morning we get our mess kits we'd stand in line and the army whether it be an act of Congress years ago I don't know that but they said service people have to be by law fed three times the day when possible so 3 times 1 we only gotten twice you get up in the morning with your mess kit and they would put breakfast and lunch on the same mess kit you need that you'd stand in line and you go around and then you'd have dinner so though it's all you did was stand in line and eat and sleep that's all you could do so what was it like adjusting I didn't get seasick at all going over the only the only thing that we never had an exercise climbing down those cargo nets you know that you know we are not inside of the boat that was frightening could - fell and fell on top of me he fell off then he knocked my rifle right off my right off my shoulder and I don't there's no way if there's no way of retrieving him he's he he would drown because too much equipment on him is oh I don't even think they made an attempt maybe afterwards I know I don't know about that so we landed on Marseilles and then we walked marched to a place called Calais Cala is staging area and did you go over as a replacement no I live with I went over way through my original original people yeah and we got we organized the we had to make sure we all got together and you know the manner in which they were able to distribute the equipment was miraculous how did you come over no no that no they know I think there might have been that might have been some essential equipment to him that might have been some rifles that might have been some ammunition hand grenades things of that nature that the guys needed right away medic medical supplies but after a day there was our truck with the maps on reddit ready to go it was amazing it really would and then we were relieved that we would have for three days and then we relieved the 45th division they had been in combat quite a while now what was the typical day and the service life for you once you once you got your vehicle where where were you send with a higher division we would like from Marseille where did you go from our say we we relieved the 45th division in marimba Bella's friends okay I can show you how to spell that and that we stayed with the hunt division went straight through the Alsace into Sukkot Gemma nee that was our last that's where VE Day eighteen months later we were in Stuttgart Germany now what was the typical dating service like well we had we had several different occasions I slept on the truck so I would get up very early go out and get breakfast we always had I have to keep any repetitious but that the supply was just uncanny I don't think people realized with the distance from the states to there and wonderful the the organisation the military the Navy all of them were able to get all of those supplies but the typical day for me I would I would sleep in the van I get up early go out and get my fur because I never know when that the general would be coming in with his staff his name with general burrows vu on our e s yes and he would come in and after I posted the information that was given to me by a liaison officers and he would study that and he would study the disposition of the troops the disposition of the troops to a left lengthen to a right flank to make sure that they you know you couldn't have any opening area today those things were all coordinated and there was one breakthrough one one time have Germans came in and that we had a lot of times with these and I was in I was in the van this was like 4:00 in the morning and I heard a lot of activity out of added owaru and there was an MP standing by the door and once in a while a fellow Dyneema Tim Wilkins was the MP who was who was in the van with me I looked out and there were all the regimental commanders were there and you know there they weren't in a jovial mood at all and I finally one of them came in and he said you have your overlay sergeant I said yes I deal from yesterday and I and I know that there was trouble and I was really worried about some my I mean it was awful atmosphere he wanted to do me a favor can you put your overlay on the map and I said yes I will so took the over we could only make 12 copies okay and I always kept a couple and then in addition with with the maps that manat we also had a stenographer and he would type information I didn't know I didn't want to over the vest from this story but anyway this colonel came in he says to me you have an overlay from yesterday's attack waters I said yes sir could you put it on the map please I put it on the map and I knew right away it I was really concerned you know because I knew that though there was not as a problem see so I put my overlay on the map and my goodness with perfect you know Italy the coolest marks they divided into tents everything was was right there he said thank you so much and he walked now what happened was that breakthrough of the German infiltrating you caused a lot of casualties when my overlay went down to regimental headquarters he mounted it on his map his map shrunk so they could talk refer down there he forced it to fit on the coordinates he moved it now you move that 1/4 inch he's got about a half mile opening in so he instead of reporting that my coordinates don't match my map he gave it a little shift the room on there and in de góngora motion he didn't and now they came back we found out that the maps had shrunk from moisture and there was a difference intended to so I I sort of felt sorry for the guy I guess he didn't realize you know that it's paper and all like that but that that's that's how it you know we had no other way no other way of checking it's a hard lesson to learn yeah and my colonel wasn't there either he was up at coordinate quarters because he would have he would have sort of cool things down for me but unless I was wrong then the by Charlie and he learned a bit of phone lines but anyway that was the only time with all of them we made I we never had a problem so they did the Corps of Engineers issued all new maps for the new paper but there was shrink proof or something like that you know don't forget this moisture and we have rain and snow and it's a hard thing to control but I guess from that point on we would divide a grid into ten parts ten equal parts so in addition to the longitude and latitude in addition to the longitude and latitude you had to break that down into ten parts so if it was 101 then your that you know oil and then you go through three four up up to ten you have to those that they would have to met everything everything would have to match and you give a good so in other words if I could put what at what I did I would put landmarks on there or in there I was like I would put a bridge or a farmhouse and that and then that would help to make to make the adjustment say if if the fellow in the regiment had had noticed that the that the farmhouse was or a sixteenth of an inch or or whatever he could he would have understood them that there's something wrong with my with with these maps you know but that but that that that happens in so did you ever see combat I was up to the lines many many times and then I had an experience which but I don't want to make myself a hero oh you honest I'm just you're asking me and I'm telling you the true story here you know the colonel doing the Battle of the Bulge the colonel sent me the coy headquarters so you were in Belgium no we were in Germany okay that's Germany the colonel sent me to coy headquarters with it with a set of maps and why we had three officers and six and listed mental but then that's all gg3 g3 he had a the commander and three assistant officers and five enlisted men that was g3 right there he sent me two coy headquarters had a travel at night with a set of maps and I had to make a route changing converting the kilometers into miles and miles into kilometers I forget but I use the wheel and then I got that organized in Europe every 15 miles they have markers on the side of the road just just stones so if you know if you move from A to B on the road it's 16 miles which is very helpful when I traveled at night and I had a drive up in an image oh go and um I traveled a lot of no lights and I would look tonight for travel 15 miles that would get out of the car out of the cheap and they looked to see if there was a marker and I made one trip to Goa headquarters uneventful on the second trip we were briefed on the fact that the German had road blocks out and and to be careful when you made a turn you make it turn stop and get out of the Jeep because their road blocks would be on the current you made that turn you've had it and so the first trip was uneventful I went to court headquarters we stayed overnight and and Jo and I drove to go back during the day but a week later he sent me again and had a lot of turns in the road we stopped the Jeep we get out of the Jeep they brought the Jeep and Joe and I were in the woods 13 hours getting away from if we could now we were finally picked up by a American Task Force it was a m1 tank and a command card and the officer's name was Riley they called him Task Force Royal now how did they find you well we know we we know we we kept the firt the first thing we were scared because hey you know we have two guys I didn't know what how many how many Germans are at the at the roadblock so we we grabbed the rifleman a bandolier of ammo and we just ran as fast as we could into the woods to get away they did I we didn't I don't think so which because I would hide that with the time but I was really I figure this is it for me I'm not going to get on that that's after that I was really upset but that one we ran like moving towards 13 hours well we got an obviously we got away and then I knew that there was a highway and I we got to the edge of the wooded area but I we we heard this tank coming up and it was an m1 and they took us in there it took us back they took us in the Corps headquarters tell me you're pretty relieved to see I was very relieved to see they have all I tell you again I'm no hero I'm just I'm just telling you the way the story went you know I wish that I saw Joe see most of us are come on actually we had a dismantle are not this man we had to dissolve our hundred division organization because the turnout gets so limited that we had it was enough going to the conventions we had in the early days we had 700 come to the convention then it ended up the last one they were only 125 they said you'd mean numerous trips to the frontlines did you see any other comment no III didn't see any other combat we were we I went to the frontline several times but it was on there just to verify some things but I I saw it I saw no combat after that now were there any casualties in your unit no we're ever awarded any medals or citations I got to Bremen store so um the Bronze Star and it's also quite an achievement to make Tech sergeant in two years so where did you advance through raining very rapidly um pretty pretty much I I was a staff when I went over and then I got that that third the third stripe when I was overseas and what you ever wanted to sustain any injuries no I mean the service no no and how did you stay in touch with your family while you're overseas just by just by letter form that's all and you said that you were very well supplied everything we ever needed and even with the material I needed in the war room through with the indelible pens the paper we had everything everything we needed there there was never any shortage and the food no matter what we always had something either a see ration if things got tight or a K ration we had that so well would you usually be served meals well at certain times we had mostly C&K but then we for them for the most part there that they would set up a kitchen and we live with it we would have regular regular child when it was served to everybody in all of Europe you know and so we it was good they even had hot chocolate once in a while did you ever feel pressure distressed only that only that one the only that one time when they had that the problem with the map I can remember going through a very worrisome period because I knew the thing that bothered me most of all was that the colonel had a lot of confidence in me and you know I felt that I I would have let him down and he was that he was a he was a difficult going to work with that he was a no-nonsense no-nonsense they were afraid of him anyway most he went with anybody he outranked was he was he was yeah but he was the darn good officer I'll tell you that much so how did it feel knowing that you know that you you saw or you heard in your first-hand experience you know how important your job was to everything exactly right yes yeah how did that feel you know um you can't anticipate you know you we're still immature to a degree you know but I I I got I would I was instructed well with the with the the preparation for this and I it wasn't that difficult you just had to make sure that you got the the phase lines right the coordinates right any army symbol that had to be there what it was there and then it were written instructions that went along with that so I I felt pretty confident during the whole time during the whole time I had I didn't have any problem at all yes my overall performance and yeah that's the thing that motivated that it the colonel doing this was a combination of things after VE Day he called me a noise office didn't call it an office and he said to me I want you to write a history of the division this is just the way he is he didn't he didn't mince words but again he had confidence in his staff and then he said to me I would like you to write a history of the division remember I'm only 19 years old he says I want you to do it with a series of Mac's I said okay and that meant that I had to get the maps that we'd never throw in their maps away we had them all rolled up ever telling me move in it so we had to order those so how does it start taking it from the minute we relief the 45th division Moranbah villas 18 months prior all right and then we had to get daily reports if you recall we had a stenographer in the van who would write the attack orders and they will call daily reports and the combination for the for the for the for the for the production and of the maps and I'm going to show you the set of maps took me three months to do this at work 12 hours a day now how do you do that okay our engineering department was you see were responsible for supplying the intricate materials that one sort or another for the chemical division for anybody that had any statistics you say gbg1 does g1 g2 g3 entry for that's Division Headquarters g1 is personnel g2 was enemy information g3 is plans and training or combat operations and G for supply that's what makes up division headquarters I had to get the daily reports out and read them to know where each division each regiment went as a 18 months of combat and I don't know you know I meet with you you know III don't know it'd be honest with you I don't know how I did that I was all in nineteen you know I don't think I had that ability today but somebody up there like me you know and so I I did it and in Stuttgart see the Corps of Engineers made contact with a German lithographer his name was Schlesinger he owned it and his place was untouched it wasn't damaged during the war and he had all the printing presses that neither all he needed was painting paper so you were able to make this history eyeball I stayed in that I stayed in that headquarters and I used I went to this journal orthography he spoke English pretty well with someone from the Corps of Engineers they supplied the paper the Pegasus and against Lima to clear the depresses with I knew nothing about color separation mind you I was when that year I had I was studying the history of art and custom-designed all right so this German told me you're gonna need four four colours to do this and he held he told me how to make each color separation in other words if I want a black border I'd have to use one sheet if I wanted to use the color blue and have to use enough another sheet and then he puts them all together any any prints that's what lithography is so three months 12 hours a day I worked I worked on that and I finished them and we made 15,000 copies of five each package that went to everybody in the hundred division and if they were back they were mailed to them I'm sure quite a few did they do I came back when nobody was looking I had a 15 of them leather-bound and a German leather company that was for the General Staff ordered the general and all the way down to the regimental commanders and and so forth only what they didn't know like the three of them like the duffel base as you should yeah yeah yeah about right now the colonel left right after that he left the division he had another assignment I think he went to Washington I didn't see him after after that there's another story attached but I tell you the truth I just forget about itself I come out of it I came out of the service and I went back to school and yeah I had this little bit it was paid for paid for you had a choice of starting a business buying a home at four percent mortgage or getting your college so I chose the latter Parsons School of Design yes where were you when your service ended where did you yeah I would discharge a folk camp miles Standish in Virginia and what was your homecoming like well my family had moved from one home to another so I didn't know exactly where it was no no I I would I live I lived in I lived in Jersey I lived in Jersey my folks are from Jersey my mother was born and raised in Colchester so I lived there for three years but I I ended up coming back obviously but I went after after VE day after I finished the Maps I had enough points prior to me staying the extra three months I had enough time to leave then the colonel asked me to stay on he went back what was over no he he stayed until I finish the matter then he cleared any left so well I had a new baby brother which I didn't know about he's going to be here this coming Saturday to the 20 years difference between us and what did you do in the days in the weeks I got home I got it I got oriented pretty well but there was a new home a new little baby brother and I went I went back to school and got it I got very quickly changed that discipline life didn't have any any problem doing that so a lot of my friends that I hadn't seen in many many years one of them was killed yeah my friend one of them was killed they never found him he was killed up he was a pilot on a b-17 somewhere over the English Channel I think that they his name was Paul dick dickson me i never said he they never found the body but he was killed and a couple of them were wounded did you make any close friendships in the service yeah i made a lot of close friends yeah my ol MP built a Tim Tim Wilkins wonderful guy did you maintain those friendship yeah yeah we maintain them for as a matter of fact they moved to hopefully see them show up really moved to Virginia with their with their family and there's an interesting individual in my section if you'd I think your folks would know about this my best friend I had to buy a lot of friends my closest friend was a gentleman by name al blows SB LOC is his normal merican from Georgetown he played for the New York Giants in 1938 I think he was killed over there that was killed over there it's my best buddy and fellow ok bill Baker William Baker he was Shirley booth husband the actress Shirley a booth your folks should know about Shirley booth yeah that was he was he was Shirley boots husband he was in the hundred division with me yeah he was my best friend he was the one of the tightest and what did you want to do as a career after the service ended well I stuck to the art field I worked as a designer for several display companies and then I started a business on my own which I stayed in for several years and then I worked for a food company as a marketing man and then I I paint now I'm annoyed just went back to my original yeah okay so yeah while you're overseas was there anything specially different good luck no I would never I was never never concerned once in a while the only thing that with what that would enter my mind I periodically would say am I ever going to get home from this you know what what the Alpha how long it's going to take to defeat thee the axis over there that was the only only thought that I ever had but I was never never really concerned see I was in the I was in the different atmosphere of the ER I was you know it was a higher level with busy 24 hours a day and I wasn't in a platoon fighting the cold weather up there and foxhole and all that kind of business I wanted there quite a bit but you know get some information but I used to go down to battalion headquarters and once I'd sneak down the company that was it that was a dangerous area company headquarters I used to go to the Italian regimental headquarters bring something down here but and we had no entertainment whatsoever there was no entertainment there you never had a USO show we we we couldn't we weren't there in the staging area to Calais France we and then we relieved the 45th and there's a minute number was combat that was said that was the whole story of thunder division we never had USO shows her oh I we I met General Patton well one day I was in the van and I was I was plotting I'm sorry I forgot that I was plotting some information on the map which is not too unusual for me and all of a sudden colonel equity came in and this guy walks in he had a silver helmet on it was Patton and your folks will know who was along with him Marlene Dietrich she was a very very famous actress yeah Patton came in into our writing you know the van you know there and he was the easter-egg right next to me you know and I looked up and I said I hope he doesn't smack me in the face like he did that so didn't so he asked me if I had an overlay for him and I gave my head and we had 12 copies remember I had couple less than I gave him a an overlay he looked at the Marisa knowing and then they didn't spend too much time but he looked over and he said thank you I said you're welcome sir I did meet Pat and did you ever get to go on a lead or yeah we went to I went to Switzerland we had it there was a that leave is a it's a little bit it's it's a little vague in my moment [Music] no no no the this this or third that they said they sent people for a rest certain groups of people believe it or not they sent they sent people back no no no no no no it was I went with Paula Raziel and chummy I bow and read which it was he passed away he was from Porchester we went to we went to Nancy France non sated and they N see why I think it is they sent myself Rizzo and and read for a rest and we were there for three days that's all it was and they they gave us a shower we got new uniforms while clean clothing and he never would do anything you needed was done there and then they sent this back that was only a three or four days they sent some of us back to get loo a little R&R and and the meals are no different than you know what we had but they were it was nice to get back there had a nice shower and all and do I reset he was just a break from the field we just didn't have anything to do they had they had a movie there and we ate you know three regular regular economy food which is which was good and we got we get all new clothing new new uniform they sewed on our patches and all that business and then that's that's that but that but that was just the only leave I had in 18 months and do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events that you witnessed or experienced yes we if we it was very cold I mean this was like almost 10 above in Germany and when we changed from one location to the other I had an opportunity to I didn't have to we were looking for a house to stay here I got permission from the colonel if I wanted to I could stay in the house so but we had to find a house so we walked through this village and and you we couldn't displace anybody you know you couldn't take a family in so we walked in the house and didn't think anybody was there so we said oh this is great and then an old old woman walked out and she didn't speak any English and we had a fella was his name was Lloyd he's I can speak German and I said great and there was a potbelly stove no no the pipe then pipe the stove was there a pile of wood no vent pipe see now we figure we're going to have a warm night but how you going to start a fight with no vent so lloyd says to us don't worry fellas he says I can speak German I have that way to get that vent pipe for us I said good go ahead so the woman comes out and he says haben z a pipe a pipe and z for the hole and C in the wall in C you might want to put that either as a bit of humor in home I always tell that joke when I'm giving a speech at the high schools you know well we almost killed him I mean he almost had 10 shots right there but the woman got it and we had a would we have we had one night that was that was that was great so he got a little humor mixed in there and do you remember any pranks well we had a guy's name was we called them Jeep who was always looking to take a jeep when we're back and he was sort of mischievous and I don't think he's around he couldn't be court-martialed anymore anyway he used to he'd go into the the the the the general had special food usually you know which was kept separate and they had loads of American cheese the five pound loaf so he always had he always had it he was a great talker you know he's from New York so he must have known the chef and he'd always come back with a five-pound loaf and he would throw it on top of the divan you see so nobody could see it miss data then we'd have to get up and get it so we always had a nice slug of American cheese I thought they were very competent the one was questionable one one was pretty nasty his neighbor's car and he was he was very nasty he was he was finally transferred transferred out they'd never get he had um he was very sarcastic and we were having a lecture he was conducting it and I had a very very bad strep throat and it was awful I couldn't swallow my eyes were tearing and I was sitting in the front row and I was and I was not had a fever I was in terrible terrible condition I went to the infirmary and they didn't know they didn't have anything to give me and I and I was sitting there now my eyes were watering he said to me what's the matter should when you homesick or something and I wasn't in any mood for that whether he was an officer or not I didn't even have a stripe you know I said I don't think so I said I have a sore throat maybe you would like to have it or something like that so he reported me to the small Hampton small and I had to go up there and in support man says well I was sick and I don't you know I said I was I had a strep throat my eyes were watering and he made a comment that I didn't like that's all I said I don't care whether he's an officer or not that's exactly what I said and small was a nice guy you know so he said and I put down that give you some duty up here but just don't do it again and that was it well you know he I don't know why but he was transferred out he might add other complaints did you keep a journal while you're overseas I have I have I have daily I have daily reports yeah I have a copy for you too and I couldn't help but notice though right and so how did you feel and that's a very very good question yeah you know I I'm gonna give you the proper I I you know I had I had full contempt for them without without doubt and I saw many of the German prisoners you know that you know focused in they we did with March to our command post and I saw a lot of I saw a lot of dead Germans on the side of the road - didn't make me do one happy really I mean that's going down to the basic thought that I had but other than that I you know I didn't have too much time to think about it you know because it wasn't brought up too much we passed one one one concentration camp and by that time it was it had been captured but if I was captured at the time that you know then then that you know at the time that I got my Jeep I don't know what would have happened at that time um some of the Jewish infantrymen were killed on the spot by the SS or or they were sent to concentration camps you know a platoon leader or someone up to the front maybe he got captured three or four left in the platoon and he had the dog tags and they would check your dog they actually it's against the law to change it though if there's any ways out so but I didn't give him much thought except during the end of the war we were there and they were thousands of German prisoners and they would walk by the building in Napa River they were in you know and I looked at them a little condemned but that's about all there were thousands of them ever captured it's a good thought you had there I knew it existed but so all of these things just it was a it was part of the scenario you know the Germans and the whole whole kit and kaboodle if didn't yes yeah yeah oh yeah oh yeah we we knew about that and I was concerned about that as well and then of course when I get back to the States we learned that we learned a lot more you learned a lot more I was very comfortable in the army there were only in all of Division Headquarters there were only three three Jews and between G 1 and G for two or more in my myself and Jeep Miller and one other no no no none whatsoever I mean the colonel would not the colonel would not have put up with that he was up he was from Nebraska you know he you could classify him we'd had some anti-semitic feelings but Donna never did I ever hear anything that that and the three officers under him I never heard it no time I was in even in the barracks had never heard that so we were never faced with it I would as I said I never once did I hear any comment from any one of my guys in the barracks I never know Walter so all over they wouldn't do that it hopefully but that was it so no I was I was quite comfortable so how did your military experience influence your thinking about I have great respect to the military I think that we had a very very competent confident well-educated officers in in the in Division Headquarters and Eklund was a regular on in man and he was a superb officer difficult to work with but if you did your job with the proper attitude conscientious dress properly nothing to worry about and I didn't know the whole while that he felt very highly of me so I you know at the time well I never I never you know I knew that he was somebody that that deserve respect and because he was a real officer oh yeah oh yes I took me a long while little come up they finally found him in Washington went to see him invited him to one of our conventions and he came my wife met him and he always wanted me to go back in a way he did he called he called up when I lived in Jersey he called me up you did and I went down the fourth break this idiom ya know you know you know I I met my beautiful wife and when I was going back to college and I knew it wasn't our lifestyle for her but it was very flattering and very hard for me to turn it down because with with this man you know I could have gone he was a he was at he was an officer within it working in his staff was the way to go I could have come out you know with a high rank and so forth but it wasn't for my wife it or I could subject her to that lifestyle yeah Jewish War veterans oh I was pret I was president of the 100 infantry Association for two years and how regular once a year we just disband the organization about two months ago for lack of attendance you notice a 1500 as World War two veterans dying everyday it's not a non-linear OS but so we only had about 120 the last time the progeny made up to 300 that we had yeah you know the guys would bring their grandchildren a brother or somebody said they made up to 300 but they're only actually 120 of us so I got a letter from that they had a Hispanic but we donated money to VMI and it's just a couple of high-school military high school I forget what that was and similar the monies and you said there's honor bestowed on you it said there at the George General George Marshall Museum that's in Virginia my mats are there my maps are at Fort Jackson Fort Bragg Fort Benning and the Carlisle Pennsylvania barracks now did you ever meet general Marshall no no how did your service and experiences affect your life like it it gave me a big sense of responsibility good work work ethic and an overall respect for people now is there anything I think that is significant to the story um did Irene buy something look without being recorded now is there anything you'd like to add that's not been covered in this interview yes I think that we did discuss the maps that I did a very interesting story about the gentleman who was the official printer for the German army his name was Schlesinger and he had a very nice establishment which was in Stuttgart not too far from the house that we were occupying and one day he opened up a draw and he showed me some letters and when I look back I think I made an error but Honest John I decided not to he showed me a couple of letters one of them was actually signed by Adolf Hitler and there was some other generals names were on there I just can't quite new Raoh was not one of them but when I saw that signature I think back I he I think he would offer it to me and I just didn't bother Honest John I should have I should have definitely taken one one of those letters but I can't look back now that we just we just laugh about it anyway if I walked home and my mother saw that she might have thrown me out of the house that's that with a letter from him okay did we cover anything about the Legion of Merit in there the Legion of Merit we didn't discuss that we discussed it but we didn't go into detail no believe it you had just mentioned darling yeah as a story but so all about him recommending it before the war before he returned to Washington he recommended me for the year the Legion America yes and unfortunately without his knowledge obviously one day I was at the headquarters a major from the Adjutant General's Office who I think he told me he drove 40 miles so to look me up he was rather concerned he showed me the recommendation that Edwin had the colonel Edwin had written and it said it said not recommended at this time with an H and that this major who happen to be Jewish that told me that that H stood for Hebrew and the reason he told me he couldn't do much about about the situation then but he recommended that I to correct this injustice was to contact the colonel when I got back to the States which I did and he wrote me another letter a very nice letter with the same recommendation and since that time I have been trying to contact the proper people but I bet it's been unsuccessful I've been to some of the Senators and I have not come to any successful work in collusion with my request it's still an open issue yeah yeah to do an open issue now Blumenthal has it and they say what they do they turn it over to one of their aides who doesn't even know where to start you know there's a certain protocol that you have to yeah yeah one of the issues is that I got the Bronze Star that was given to me in conjunction with a couple of other things that I did but he also mentioned the fact that I did those maps and that's one of the reasons among others that he erected me for the Bronze Star that might be one of the reasons that that the there's been a delay because you can't be awarded something twice for the same for the same episode but this is a completely different issue completely different the timespan on it is different so we let it go with that and we're still we're still trying to get to the bottom of this thing I'm 89 now we maybe I'll get a pleasant surprise one day I hope for your sake okay thank you well mr. Schumann thank you for your service it's been my pleasure I enjoyed doing it with you really you're very attentive sensitive to this I think you really appreciate you know what the World War I veterans did personnel that are still out there defending our country take the time to enjoy this interview and to share on some of your experience well thank you so much it's been my pleasure

Channel: ccsuvhp

Views: 3,051

Rating: 4.6999998 out of 5

Keywords: Schuman, Burton World War II (Military Conflict) Veteran (Profession) War (Quotation Subject)

Id: 8MKtLgsOleo

Length: 83min 16sec (4996 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 10 2013