India’s Role in a New Pacific Order

a and in the future Hudson carries on that Legacy today we are grateful to have representatives from many of our International Friends joining us here today many of them from some of our allies are research fellows and Senior fellows here at Hudson Institute to improve our understanding and our ability to talk with friends and allies in substantive and continuous ways yeah I particularly want to thank Ambassador Sandu for his work advancing indio-american relationship he's been a great friend and we've had many conversations with him and I want to thank him for his for his great representation of India here and his diligent efforts to try to help us understand what's going on in India and in the indo-pacific thank you ambassador for these and many other reasons we are honored to host India's external affairs minister Dr Jai Shankar for this discussion he's going to be joined by my colleague Walter Russell Mead this discussion is important I think as is evident to most people here because both of our countries are at a critical point in the history of the world and the future that world is going to largely be shaped by our ability to work together and with other allies around the globe to create a better and safer future rather than a more chaotic and a future filled with conflict this is a therefore this is a critical time for us to not only better understand but better figure figure out ways to work together as we have never worked together before is a member of the Upper House of India's Parliament before assuming his current role in government he served as foreign secretary and has been India's ambassador to the United States and his em the India's ambassador to the People's Republic of China among other countries I don't I think don't think I have to tell this group he is one of the most respected diplomats in the world he is considered one of the most confident [Applause] and around the world if people have problems they frequently call him to help them sort it out foreign he is uh also the author of a best-selling book the India way strategies for an uncertain World which is compellingly articulates India's current and future position in the world and I recommend it highly many times people want to understand others through distance I think it's very important to use the expertise of people who are at the front line and have thought deeply and experience deeply the the issues that are going to shape our world joining him as for this discussion is Walter Russell Mead he is the Raven will be Curry the third distinguished fellow in strategy and statesmanship at Hudson Institute many of you know him as the global view colonists of the Wall Street Journal and he is the James James Clark chance professor of Foreign Affairs and Humanities at Bard College in New York Walter multitasks he's author of numerous books including the widely recognized special provenance America's foreign policy and how it changed the world his newest book Arc of a covenant the United States Israel and the fate of the Jewish people has been recognized by the New York Times in the Wall Street Journal as best book of the year ladies and gentlemen thank you for joining us for this important discussion please join me in welcoming Dr Josh Anker and my colleague Walter Russell Mead and and I think we'll begin with Dr Jai Shankar speaking for a few minutes and then we will go to question answer would you like to speak from the podium or from here it would be yes okay terrific good morning good morning to all of you and uh it's a real pleasure to be back here it's been some years but of course we've been uh talking to each other I was told that the topic for the day is India and the new Pacific order am I correct now I wasn't sure whether the Pacific was with a capital P or a small P but either way we are into it now uh for many people I think particularly in the United States it's probably uh a new idea something something very different to think of India uh in terms of the Pacific region Pacific order the Pacific Community of Nations and the fact that we have such a title and it seems uh natural today is an indication actually is one indication of what has changed in the world viewed from India's perspective uh we today do much more business to the east of India than we do to the west of India historically we look at our key trade Partners we look at our important economic Partners we look at a lot of our strategic interests a lot of it is today uh extending eastwards into the Pacific and Beyond now what this has given rise to in the last few years is a concept of indo-pacific that too has been readily embraced by many and contested by a few uh but again it's a it's a concept that has uh actually uh gained ground uh I often reflect uh on the fact that the separation in a way of the Indian Indian Ocean and the Pacific region uh is is something actually which is an outcome really of the second world war that Yvonne looked at a global strategy and Global understanding before that the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean were dealt with in a much more integrated way with the emphasis on the Indian and so in some ways what you are seeing today of the indo-pacific coming together the idea of India contributing in many ways to a Pacific order is something which reflects really the rebalancing that is today taking place in the world rebalancing in which the changed capabilities positioning and attitudes of the United States is the central driving Factor but also in one in which the rise of China and its implications is a obviously a very very crucial issue but to which makes I mean there are many other moving Parts but one of an important one is also that of India now related to the indo-pacific again over the last six years another concept which has gained ground is thought of the Court it was revived in 2017 after a gap it was attempted first in 2007. uh it did not last it was revived after a decade it's an interesting question why it worked this time when it did not work the first time not just worked but if you see in 17 it was done at a at a bureaucratic level uh at a under secretary level in the U.S in 19 it became a ministerial Forum in 21 it became a presidential Prime ministerial forum and at every stage people there were people who said well you know this is where it sort of Fizzles out and it seems to be growing from strength to strength and we will have the privilege of hosting the summit next year in India ah in terms of the Pacific order I think a lot of the global concerns are most acute in the Pacific one is uh you know one of course is the larger issue of how do you maintain stability uh in the middle of very major change taking place because often sharp changes and balances of power and interest and influence can create risks which which whose management therefore becomes a very crucial issue but there are some other I think key issues today uh in the world which Center particularly around the Pacific one of them is the building of reliable and resilient Supply chains because the experiences of the last few years have taught us their importance ah the other is the promotion of trust and transparency on anything to do with digital so whether it's Telecom or whether it's artificial intelligence uh or whether it's the car that you are driving uh you uh really uh today the importance of uh trusted providers trusted sources trusted geographies I think this is today a very very big issue the third is the over concentration of production of especially of manufacturing that if you have over concentration which is liable to be leveraged uh you know had it happened in any of our national economies it would have attracted Anti-Trust provisions yet it happens in the world and we are all blissfully we are sanguine about it so what you know what are the dangers of over concentration what are the implications of over concentration how are they leveraged how are they weaponized I think is a very big issue today in the world ah and if you put it together I would suggest to you that the world is badly in need of some form of re-globalization that globalization itself is undeniable it is it has struck very deep roots uh it has tremendous benefits nobody doubts that but the particular model of globalization which has evolved over the last 25 years uh obviously has a lot of risks inherent in it and today how to address those risks and create a safer world is part of the challenge facing the Pacific order so let me just end with one last remark because John there was something you said which was India and the United States have never really worked before together I think that is a very thoughtful observation because dealing with each other is not the same as working with each other and in the past uh we have we have always dealt with each other sometimes not entirely happily but working with each other is a is a new Israeli Uncharted Territory uh it is a territory which we have both entered in the last few years and it has required both of us really uh to overcome what my prime minister called the hesitations of history when he spoke to the Congress a few years ago so how do we uh how do we create that ability and the convergences and hopefully the Comfort to work together I think that would be very crucial to the future of the Pacific order so perhaps with those remarks Walter if you would allow me we can start the conversation terrific thank you [Applause] thanks for those remarks and thank you so much for being here you really do Hudson great honor um I I want to say I'm especially grateful because while Hudson is a nonpartisan Think Tank and we work with people in both parties many would say that Hudson has closer relations sometimes with the Republican party so we especially appreciate that you have reached out in a way in a bipartisan way toward the opposition it's a it reminds us that both India and the United States are democracies do believe in pluralism and we at Hudson appreciate this sign of India's concern faith in that principle um this is also by the way I just saw yesterday that Swami nadan had died at 98 I believe he was an example of Indian American cooperation not on the governmental level but his work with Norman burlog helped establish the Green Revolution which has been transformational in the lives of literally billions of people in India and around the world and this is you know this reminds me at least of what the U.S and India what Americans and Indians can accomplish together and I hope we will be seeing more of it uh Minister Jay Schenker between oh I should say first to before I get into my questions that he has agreed to take questions from the floor and the way we do this at Hudson is we ask people to email questions I know you all have cell phones here I know you you you know how to text while listening so I'm going to we ask you to send questions to press p-r-e-s-s at hudson.org and uh those questions will come up to me I'll have an opportunity to look at them consolidate them where we have several questions on the same topic and perhaps also forestall the possibility it's not unknown that sometimes people confuse questions with speeches uh so uh please do that and we will conclude the meeting with your questions um at at the G20 and elsewhere we hear that India is looking for a change in international architecture or in in the way World politics works and World institutions I've also heard India described as a reformist rather than as a revisionist power it seeks real change in the status quo but not necessarily in Us in in the way that perhaps some of our colleagues and friends in Russia and and China might do what is it that India is looking for in in in change in the world situation and how does that affect do you think India's vision of where we're all going uh well let me put it to you this way uh that you know the world as we live it today is largely a western construct now uh if you looked at the world architecture to use your words uh there's been obviously enormous change in the last eight years uh one looked at the major economies of the 1940s and 50s they are very different from the major economies today and nothing illustrates it more than the G20 itself ah so the the list of the G20 will tell you is is the easiest way of actually uh you know getting a sense of the changes in the world now uh for India uh when we confront a largely Western created architecture obviously we would like to encourage and facilitate and induce and pressurize changes which are badly needed but we it is done it as a to add a non-western layer and a input so I I make this very important distinction by India's concerned India is non-western India is not anti-western so when we speak about you know and and I'll give you an example which we discussed even at the G20 ah it's very clear today that uh you know if we are going we are serious about climate action if you are looking to sustain you know to ensure that sustainable development goals are well resourced uh then uh somewhere we have to find the Financial Muscle for that now for us to ah it is the international financial institutions the bank the World Bank and the fund which will be at the at the core of that effort so a lot of what we are seeking to do is to improve and I would say refresh institutions make them more fit for purpose and that even applies to the United Nations you know we do believe today that you know a United Nations where the most populous country is not in the security Council when the fifth largest economy is not there when a continent of 50 plus countries is not there that United Nations obviously lacks credibility and to a large degree Effectiveness as well so the whole you know when we approach the world it's not uh it's not with a you know sort of pull down the pillars kind of approach it is it is very much you know what can we do to make it better fitter efficient purposeful that's the kind of mindset we're bringing back well I I have to say I I find myself in agreement with with much of what you say especially when I look at the United Nations and I think that in the official U.N system India is sort of said to be equal to Luxembourg they both have one vote in the general assembly I like luxemba well I have nothing against actually you know if you're ever in Luxembourg eat the duck it's fantastic okay but um they uh you know but the idea that that those two political entities should be equally weighted in the United Nations is I think a you know an absurdity that future Generations will will not be able to understand when they look back at our times now over the summer you said that there are three big Eurasian Powers Russia China and India and that the indo-russian relationship is not transactional this is geopolitical how do you see india-russia relations especially at a time where Russia and China appear here to be working much more closely together than before you know uh this approach is not something new in fact since Independence in India this has been the basic thinking about our geopolitical uh predicament ah which is if there are three major polities occupying the land mass the central land mass of the world then how do you ensure that there is a balance and how do you ensure you are not facing an adverse balance ah now we had a phase I would say late 40s which were particularly testing for us you know this was when Star you know this is still Stalin's Soviet Union at that time and ah I think the Indian diplomacy very sensibly set to work on on the basic international relations principle of your neighbor's neighbor so your neighbor's neighbor is intrinsically well disposed towards you so uh since the 50s actually there's been a very uh you know systematic Mutual cultivation now it's not just us thinking about Soviet Union now Russia is also the Russians thinking about India with the same principle and the same logic in mind ah now that actually is such a powerful logic at least in our part of the world that if you consider international relations over the last 70 years you know the U.S Russian relations the china-russia relations the U.S China relations Europe pretty much every big relationship in the last 70 years has seen a great deal of volatility you had sharp ups and downs the India Russia is very exceptional it's been very steady it may not it may not be spectacular you know so it may it may have stabilized at a certain certain level but it has not seen that kind of ups and downs which your relations with Russia or China's relations with Russia or Europe's relationship with Russia is seeing through and that's in itself a statement now if one looks at the world today Russia Today I think as a as a consequence of what is going on in Ukraine it is it seems to me clear and I assume it seems to them clear that in many ways Russia's relationship with the West has broken down ah and in that case it's logical that Russia focuses more on the Asian side of Russia though historically Russia has always seen itself as a European uh path so you are actually seeing a reinvention of Russia by as a consequence of what is happening in Ukraine and you can see you know much of that will naturally focus on China because that's the first and the largest country and economy that Russia encounters when it turns when it Wheels around and looks at Asia but then again India will will and has come into calculations as well so I would predict actually Russia which would consciously focus on the non-western world away from Europe away from the United States look much more at Asia look possibly at other regions as well but Asia is economically the most active so so I guess that's what you're going to see okay um there's a growing recognition in the United States and India I think bolstered by prime minister modi's tremendously successful visit last summer that our two countries interests are broadly and even strategically aligned in a way perhaps they have not been in the past and this is that shift from dealing with one another to working with one another that you mentioned where do you see the principal areas where our interests are aligned and what areas of tension and difference do you see at this point um I would say they are aligned in a set of areas in a in a kind of a geostrategic way they are aligned that we both want to see a certain stability and a certain set of rules and a certain I would say distribution of power which which is advantages to both of us and our interests are not clashing in that respect so at a at the biggest picture level I would say there's a very powerful case really for India and on the U.S to work together so if you look even within within our systems uh you know historically it was actually a national security side which had the greatest suspicion of reservations about each other today it's the National Security side which is the most enthusiastic about it the second is actually the economic side but an economic side which is a very heavily Tech focused yes because if one looks at the direction of the global economy in fact you look at our own lives the the tech component of ah of what we use and do and live amidst is increasing and this this what you can call it the knowledge economy you know the information embedded economy I think has created again a very powerful new convergence between us because at Global level the United States will need Partners India will need opportunities and and possibilities so to me you know if we are today talking about about I said if we are you know if you look at American priorities like the IRA and the the chips act I think these are all factors which will create a a stronger uh sort of bonding so if you can get the ah I think if the the politics works and the economics gets stronger then obviously there's a very very strong convergence and we asked me where are the where could there be or where are the problems you know we will we are both we are democratic societies we are incredibly diverse but we are diverse in very different ways and we are very internally argumentative and externally uh I mean argumentative would be a mild word so so what happens is I think we will have double b occasions well there will be that rub or that friction and it will happen also because in a globalized world our arguments are no longer contained in a national sphere ah you know people who think who have a Viewpoint in India will reach out to people who have a similar Viewpoint in the U.S and vice versa are today political arguments are very very Global and often if you if you are having a global conversation but not necessarily a global cultural understanding of each other I think there's plenty of room there for for uh for friction ah often you know I I read judgments or I hear people say things in the U.S and and sometimes in India too where we are looking at the other Society completely from our own template from our own experience and I think that would be an issue well I certainly would agree that both from my experience both Americans and Indians lead the world in moral lectures we're we're both both of our societies are we've been doing it long ago yes no you have a deeper you have a deeper experience I I won't deny um but kind of along these lines I know that when Prime Minister Modi was here a number of uh of American Representatives boycotted his address to Congress some did I don't know if I'd use the word a number well a number can be a small number it doesn't have to be a big one and uh I know I wrote a column about India in the Wall Street Journal and I got a Le there was a letter to the editor from Cardinal Dolan who was a very well respected man I personally respect tremendously uh to the journal expressing his concern that I hadn't said enough in my column about problems of religious minorities in in India so um how how would you sort of try to shape the conversation or how would you respond to some of these concerns that that people have here uh it would be a mix because you know I think different people uh uh if I I don't know Cardinal Dolan uh I'm a little more familiar with American politicians including members of Congress so I'm not you know I know many of them have a strong views often ah electorally driven sometimes culturally driven all of that so I'm a little hesitant to address specific examples so but as a broad proposition yes yes look as a broad proposition uh you know all I can say where India is concerned is the underlying culture of India is deeply pluralistic in fact I cannot think of any society in the world and I've lived in many of them whether I look at Europe or look at North America North America us is very pluralistic China I've lived in Russia the the diversity and the layers that you get in India and you can slice it in different ways it could be ethnicity it could be faith it could be language it could be Traditions uh it's it's in it's actually unique it's it's truly in multiple accesses the most diverse space in the world now ah it is something now when you have that kind of diversity that diversity will always have its own conversations and discussions it will be there will be attempts to get a certain balance right there will be Corrections there will be Recollections it's in the nature of diversity the only way you won't have those dialogues is when you don't have diversity or when you have imposed something so strong that you know everything is okay in that place because everybody has either been forced to agree or condition to agree with each other so we actually are a much more loser Society where uh there are you know there's a almost a natural inclination to disagree and that is our national character now when you have people who do not who have not come through that experience who for them you know are listening it's like you're listening to the next room you really don't know the people in the Next Room you're picking snatches of conversation and then you are making a judgment or a opinion based on that particular sound bite that that you picked up so ah today if since you brought up the issue of minorities in India look what is the what is the uh test really of of uh of fair and good governance or of the balance of a society it would be whether in terms of uh you know the the amenities the benefits the access the rights do you discriminate or not you know and and in every society in the world at some point there's been some discrimination on some basis so if you look at India Today ah you know and and I you know it's it's a it's a society today where there's a tremendous change taking place because people are get I mean the biggest change happening today in India is the creation of a social welfare system in a society which has less than three thousand dollars per capita income nobody's done that in the world before now when you look at the benefits of that you look at housing you look at Health you look at Food you look at Finance you look at you know educational Access Health Access there's no you know I I defy you to show me discrimination I mean in fact the the more digital we have become uh the more uh more in a way faceless the the governance has become actually it's become fairer but as I said this is a globalized world there will be people you know you will have people gripe about it and lot of much of the wrapping is also political let me be very Frank with you because we've also had a culture of vote Banks uh and uh there are there are sections who had in their own eyes or certain privileged taxes who today May May resent the fact that they don't and you know it's a phenomenon with which you are not unfamiliar and I think these will be the turbulence of a Democratic Society when are we in the United States have had the experience not only of lectures from India but lectures from Canada and uh you know I think uh you know they look at you as the global South yeah uh they uh it's it's one of the more interesting relationships and um uh I think Dean Atchison once wrote an essay about Canadian criticisms of the United States and he titled it Stern daughter of the voice of God um but uh certainly the Canadian Prime Minister has made some serious charges recently but I also see that from press reports that you have met while you're in Washington with um a national security adviser Sullivan with our secretary of state uh Lincoln and that's this subject has come up can you give us any information about uh how this is is or isn't affecting U.S India relations where this whole matter stands now from your perspective uh okay no so let me start with Canada yes the Canadian Prime Minister made some allegations initially privately and publicly and our response to him both in private and public where that what he was alleging was not consistent with our policy and that if he had if his government had anything relevant and specific they would like us to look into we were open to looking at it now that's where that conversation is at this point of time but to understand that conversation you have to also appreciate that this has been an issue of great friction for many years with Canada in fact going back to the 1980s then it became dormant but in the last few years it has come back very much into play because of what we consider to be a very permissive Canadian attitude towards terrorists extremists people who openly Advocate violence and they have been given operating space in Canada because of the compulsions of Canadian politics I don't think most Americans you know for for Americans perhaps Canada looks very different ah but uh you know it it sort of it depends you know from where the interests where the shoe pinches for us it has certainly been a country where uh organized crime from India uh mixed with trafficking in people mixed with secessionism violence terrorism it's it's a very toxic combination of issues and people who have found operating space there so a lot of our tensions with Canada ah which well preceded what Mr Trudeau said actually come out of out of that and today today I am actually in a situation where my diplomats are unsafe going to the Embassy or to the consulates in Canada in Canada they are publicly intimidated and that has actually compelled me to temporarily suspend even Visa operations in Canada so ah so as I said you know often countries look very different depending on how you see them and what your interests are but I have this problem in Canada and so your question uh did I speak about it with Jake Sullivan and Tony blinken yes I did and so well the uh let's put it this way they you know they they obviously shared you know U.S views and assessments on this whole situation and I explained to them at some length you know what I gave you was a was a summary of the concerns which I had so I I think hopefully we both came out of those meetings better informed great well thank you well we are about to go to audience questions and I see I have some here but while I'm looking at them uh could you do you have any advice for Americans who think who want to learn more about India where should young people or older people who are interested in this where should they go to to learn about this country that is looming larger and larger in American foreign policy and in world affairs um you know it look it's it's hard to it's it's hard to give a general advice but I would say uh I mean and this really flows from our own conversation today that in whatever profession people are I think it would be useful to try to see how that particular profession or that particular set of interests are doing in India because there may be experiences there there may be uh there may be thoughts their ideas there which people would would find useful I you know for a for many many years India has been an absorber an active Searcher for Best Practices around the world I think today we can also contribute ah to to best practices I mean I I give you some very very different examples of this uh I I mean you would have all seen that are very a very persuasive advocacy of yoga over the last decade has improved Global health so if anybody wants to get up in the morning and wants to have a better day I mean my suggestion is please you know look at your phone and find the most conducive yoga practice but on the other hand if you are someone in the digital world and you see really how creatively today you know digital mediums and practices are being embraced and I give you an example you know that if you are going shopping in India today you can leave your wallet behind you can't leave your phone behind because most likely the person you're buying something from will not accept cash will want you to pull out your phone look at the QR code and make a cashless payment now we are clocking last year we clocked 90 billion cashless Financial payments just for a reference the US was about three uh and China was 17.6 this year we probably would exceed I saw the June figures it was 9 billion transactions in June alone so I'm giving you that as an example I mean you know uh Street vendors today will have a QR code on their cart and say you know just make your payment there so it could be digital it could be Wellness it could be food habits it could it could even be you know this this whole discussion today we have about pluralism identity culture tradition uh I think there are things to learn there and I equally you know just so that people don't think I'm back to that moralizing path that you know I I do think Indians too you know are getting very Global there in you know the world comes at you every waking hour through this wonderful instrument we carry with us and the more we absorb the better of We Are okay great well now I have some questions from the audience to ask we have one from a uh one of my fellow press reptiles who is here in the uh uh group today has asked has has said that um President Biden appeared confident enough in the intelligence about alleged Indian government involvement in the Cana in the murder of Hardeep Singh Najar to raise the issue with Prime Minister Modi the G20 he asks what have you done in response to the U.S and other Western concerns maybe we've answered some of this already but sure yeah I think I answered that okay you've answered it okay we move on um we this is from someone at a think tank we see India playing an increasingly important role in new multilateral groups like The G20 quad I2 U2 India Middle East economic quarter Etc is the Indian government looking to utilize this diplomatic momentum to strengthen more Regional grouping such as s-a-aarc the Indian Ocean Rim Association particularly the i o particularly the iora ah you have ah we actually have an iora IRA meeting next month in Sri Lanka I'll be going for that uh I think uh you know you know we we've even tabled an indo-pacific oceans initiative in the East Asia Summit where we look at non-security aspects of protecting the ocean space uh you know today for us the the challenge is uh there are new opportunities ah there are new combinations and how do you do that without losing focus of what you have so it's a kind of uh it's a it's a bird in the bush and the bird in heart but you you know you you want to keep both of them and part of the challenge is also to convince keep the older Partners convinced that you know your interest in what you've been doing for some time remains the shark saarc is an exception there it's currently dormant because one of its members who will remain unnamed believes that they can practice terrorism uh at no cost so uh so that's that's an exception but otherwise we've been pretty much uh active and and really even the the latest we we look at latest initiative we're looking at is this Middle East Corridor uh you know which has India at one end and Europe and the other so it has for the moment Saudi Arabia and the UAE but it is on in a it's got the us as well as a kind of a guarantored partner if you would and it it really has a lot of possibilities because uh you know uh given if if we can find a more seamless effective competitive Logistics between India and Europe and I think it will have enormous consequence for the global economy I have a follow-up question from someone else on the same sort of General role uh question how do you see India's role changing in the Middle East and I would add I think many Americans May understand that there's a close India Middle Eastern relationship on uh energy but also Israel is a primary defense partner with Israel with India and then we have millions of Indians who work in the Gulf country so the relations 9 million yeah the relationship is really quite close right uh how do you see India's role developing in the Middle East uh well I I mean you Walter touched on the energy side you've touched on the uh the fact that you have 9 million expats in the Gulf there's also the proximity the the the historical connections out there but we have to understand today that but uh as India becomes a more a larger consumer a bigger economy our salience in Gulf in the Middle East countries calculations especially the gulf economies is that much higher for many countries you know we are I think we are the largest trade partner of the UAE and we would be among probably the top three of the Saudis so and it isn't just the volume of trade you know uh we discovered during Kobe they discovered during covet that the gulf is actually dependent on The Daily food consumption for what comes out of India so the economies have really got very very deeply meshed and today the gulf itself is in transition you know if you if you talk to the leadership in golf they are talking Renewables they are talking green hydrogen and when they and a lot of them are very enthusiastic in terms of digital digital progress so we are finding new areas of Interest action ah with with them and our I mean if you look at Indian businesses we are we are today far more entrenched in the Middle East than we've been for a long time yeah that's right we have a final question and then we'll bring this part of the program to to a close which is um again without mentioning any name somebody's asked as we speak today the situation in India's Western neighborhood is deteriorating at a fast pace there could be a situation where a country could collapse or see unrest how is India preparing or for such an unknown event or how could it prepare in an unnamed country in an unnamed country to the west of India you know that there's some that we have a few countries there's there's more than one option well having having problems of their own uh you know look uh today uh there are uh there are countries in different parts of the world in crises of different kinds uh and we have a few proximate to us uh we we saw Sri Lanka who which really went through a very very uh I mean almost an economic meltdown last year and we had to step forward because and you know they they were engaged in a negotiation uh with the world with the fund and their needs were so immediate and so serious that we actually did the largest bilateral lending that we've ever done which we give them almost a package of four billion dollars as a as a way of stabilizing economy the the unnamed country to our West which we are talking about they but they have a much you know their problems are much more long-term they're much more uh deeper historically in terms of uh you know what happens when distortions have been introduced into the the natural progress of an economy that if you have let us say excessive expenditure uh on on the military or if your your borrowing has not been prudent or if you have infrastructure which doesn't pay its way I think there are a lot of factors there in multiple chickens are coming home to roost at the same time all right well thank you very much I know we're all grateful to minister Jai Shankar for his uh his time uh I'll ask you to respect that time as we go he has a very busy schedule today so he and I will head out here there is coffee and other assorted Delicacies in the back I'm afraid more American than Indian and in 15 minutes we'll reassemble here where there's going to be a panel discussion led by a Hudson's Japan chair and a very distinguished fellow and longtime friend of India Ken Weinstein and so I hope to see you back for that soon thank you and welcome to the second part of our India foundation and Hudson institute's conference India's role in a new Pacific order I'm Ken Weinstein I am a Japan chair here at Hudson Institute now we've had this extraordinary conversation already this morning between external affairs minister Jai Shankar and Hudson Institute the distinguished fellow Walter Russell Mead and now we have a remarkable panel of uh experts to examine what the policy community and what the business Community can do together to strengthen the U.S India partnership and I say I'll say at first that Walter and Minister jaishank are set an extraordinarily High bar we will not try to achieve anything near that height but I think it'll it should be an interesting conversation and let me just begin immediately just to introduce the people on the panel first let me begin immediately to my left is a vice admiral Sheikh garcinha who's the chairman of the board at the India Foundation during his time in the Indian Navy he was commander-in-chief of the western Naval command responsible for security in the Arabian ocean the Gulf of Eden the Persian Gulf and he also served prior to that as chief of the integrated defense staff to the chief of staff's committee he has been widely decorated in India for his distinguished service next to the Admiral is Hudson Institute senior fellow Nadia shadlow Nadia was prior to joining Hudson served as Deputy National Security advisor for strategy and she is of course the principal author of The 2017 National Security strategy which really marked a new era in U.S foreign and security policy prior to joining Hudson she was a senior program officer at the Smith Richardson Foundation she also worked previously at uh at the Department of Defense on Eastern European issues and has written widely on supply chain and East Asian issues in her time at Hudson uh next to Nadia is the chairperson of the Parliamentary standing committee for finance a member of parliament Jay Han Sinha in the past he was minister of State for finance and civil aviation prior to his career in public service uh Mr Sinha was a venture capitalist who like many uh in the Indian diaspora lived in the United States 20 years graduated from Harvard Business School the University of Pennsylvania and IIT Delhi and he spent 20 years in Boston and so he knows both countries extremely well and has a very critical role in the Indian Parliament lastly is our old friend Steve begin Steve is now senior vice president of global public policy at the Boeing Company Steve of course served as a deputy secretary of state and had an important portfolio that especially dealing with India prior to serving as a deputy secretary of state Steve was a corporate vice president at the Ford Motor Company and prior to that he served with the great distinction as chief of staff at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and also as executive secretary of the National Security Council here in Washington so we're going to have hopefully a free-flowing conversation a number there were a number of very important themes that were raised by minister zaishanker in his conversation but let me uh let me begin first by turning uh to the Admiral um let's let what's your let me let me turn to the quad first of all you obviously have deep experience in in defense issues follow defense transformation quite closely now with the signing of the Japan Australia reciprocal access agreement in 2022 and the 2021 announcement of the Australia UK U.S strategic partnership August the U.S Australia and Japan have significantly deepened already long-standing defense ties to each other do you think India will ever have these kinds of ties with its fellow quad members does it even want them and and where should India's role when the quad beheading well thank you Ken for um uh that good introduction that you gave for me though it's been a long time since I left the left Service uh coming to quad it started in uh you know quite some time back and I think that uh the other Partnerships that you mentioned occurs or maybe uh South Korea Japan and us these are all complementary to each other and I look at it in a very broad way you see today the we are doing all this so that we can maintain the the existing order or you know we can have a uh what is called the ah free and open Seas particularly in the indo-pacific and for that to happen uh you know these countries have to come together in you know various kind of groupings that you have you have these groupings because indo-pacific is a very very big area and you have the Indian Ocean you have some of the Partnerships which are very specific to more important to Indian oceans some are specific to South China Sea and some are specific to the Pacific so I think these are all complementary to each other they will all survive and India has very much great interest in Indian Ocean and the Pacific as the minister mentioned this morning so my sense is that yes India is very much part of all this it will continue to remain a very important part of the quad and in terms of I mean you drew there a very subtle distinction between the different Regional areas that the quad is handling in terms of uh do you use which in India has obviously different role to play in each of those areas as as do the other members of the quad but there obviously seems to be more of a focus on the South China Sea from three members of the quad and arguably less of a focus in India do you see that changing at all I think the you know our policy of Ah One China policy does not permit us to get militarily involved in uh in the South China Sea however uh the chief of Naval staff is on record to say uh that should India's economic interests um you know they get Disturbed uh the Indians will very much you know make themselves present and see how they can get over it uh having said that in case the Taiwan Strait crisis becomes it deepens and suppose it you know heads towards a war like situation then I am sure as a quad partner as a partner of uh Malabar India will do all that has been expected from India to do except for possibly physically participating in the world great thank you let me turn it now to Nadia Shadow Nadia you've written widely on supply chain issues uh and obviously you also played a critical role dealing with your Indian interlocutors as Deputy National Security advisor uh part of uh the quad Focus under the Biden Administration has been to try to bring about secure Supply chains where do you see this heading how far as how successful has this been and what do you think we need to do together between India and the United States outside of the Quad framework I think there's a lot of opportunity and I think India's actually been in the lead on a lot of these opportunities uh and in some ways faster than the US so very recently for instance um they're a big facility now will be built by Micron in India hundreds of millions of dollars ground has just broken and what's interesting is that they're predicting output in a year whereas in the U.S we have a chips act which is still sort of enmeshed in bureaucracy and we're you know I'm not really sure what what's happening right I mean it's moving along but but we could move faster but that's just one area of potential partnership I think most important is that India and the United States are aligned as the as the minister said previously in understanding what this new architecture of globalization needs to look like what does the architecture look like it doesn't look like the way that it has over the past 10 years and India has been very important and especially you know uh the foreign minister in articulating that I think one of my favorite lines from his speech at the UN was you know we are um we aspire to be a leading power to take on greater responsibility and make greater contributions and I really like that um it defines the areas that also the US and India can work on together so supply chain issues but increasing defense cooperation issues looking at secure ICT around the world in actually implementing and operationalizing these shifts and I think there's the leadership today in both countries is committed to that thank you Nadia let me now turn to chairperson Chairman Sinha uh you just heard Nadia noting somehow something that's a little cognitive dissonance for some of us that the United States is actually more bureaucratic in some ways than India but uh you know which is uh I think but it's probably music to your ears given hero uh on the standing committee for for finance um and your experience here in the United States let me let me let me let me shift gears a little bit you're here in Washington uh for a number of reasons but in part you're here for meetings with the multilateral development Banks uh you heard Minister zaishankar's uh discussion of the need to reform these institutions uh what do you think needs to be done and in particular what needs to be done to to better meet the needs of the global South well thank you Ken and thank you at the Hudson Institute for hosting uh a wonderful program we were of course very fortunate to hear Minister Jay Shankar give a very eloquent uh you know analysis of geopolitics and India's position they're in and one of the issues that he alluded to which you are touching on as well is really a reform of the global architecture particularly the multilaterals and to that end of course as I said I'll be having some meetings later on at the World Bank and the IMF to talk about what we can do with the multilateral development Banks that's really been front and center and right on top of the agenda on a number of different discussion fora most recently at the G20 where there was a very important Declaration on MDB reform and you know as Minister Jay Shankar correctly said India has gone from dealing with the United States to actually working with the United States and when it comes to the multilateral development Banks we are in fact working very closely with the United States to reposition the multilateral development Banks and many other elements of the Global Financial architecture to actually address the very important financing needs of the global South and let me just sharpen that point a little bit Ken because I think it's very important for us to recognize the stakes we've talked about National Security very important there to build up the defense ecosystem semiconductor supply chain as Nadia mentioned but equally what we haven't spoken about so far is climate change and as far as the global South is concerned if we don't get the support of the north either from a financial point of view of in terms of technological resources we are not going to be able to deal with greenhouse gas emissions and you know be able to bring the world back in equilibrium and for that the multilateral development banks have to completely be transformed and that's a very important area for India and the United States to be working together and of course with prime minister modi's visit here to the U.S in June where there was a very strong statement of intent to that effect and then separately at the G20 again even in the bilateral and then of course in the overall leaders Summit declaration again the importance of transforming the entire Global architecture to address these existentialist crises is very much on top of the agenda and that's a fantastic opportunity for India and the U.S to work together on a variety of fronts financing of course I've just mentioned but also technology very importantly whether we talk about decarbonization Technologies you talk about nuclear technologies you talk about Transportation Technologies again a tremendous area for working together and then of course uh in the entire sort of industrial ecosystem as well if you've got to build batteries if you've got to build football Tech panels and so on unless the India and the U.S ecosystems the economic ecosystems come together it's going to be very difficult for us to be able to get to sustainable Prosperity so we are at a very important juncture we have to work together and absolutely integral to that is the reform of the global architecture to do that whether it is the mdbs or even as uh you know Minister Jay Shankar mentioned the UN because that's the only way we can deal with and manage the massive Global challenges that we are confronting right now let me let me ask you a quick follow-up an important one with regard to the U.N obviously we we saw the failure of U.N institutions with regard uh to preventing the Ukraine war and just the the inability of those institutions really to react uh as such and we as a result we saw both the revitalization of both the G7 under Japanese leadership and to a certain degree the G20 which was revitalized so not focusing as much on Ukraine under India's leadership India's vision of reforming the un uh would it would it empower the young to deal with crises like this we have to do we have a choice can we really have to take the multilateral institutions as they are right now and strengthen them and exactly as Minister jayashankar said that if you want to move to a more Equitable prosperous world the multilateral institutions have a very important role to play but they are largely Western constructs right now and that's exactly why they're not able to do their job somebody like India not being on the Security Council is indeed you know just a a very clear example of that failure of governance that we have globally right now and that's part of the reason why the multilaterals are not able to step up and Minister jayashankar correctly said that you know we have a reformist view we don't have a revisionist here we don't turn the clock back we want to take what we have and move it forward by reforming it and making it much more Equitable and much more inclusive so we can address these very real challenges thank you Steve let me ask you you have been involved in U.S India relations you know for many years and you know we have been together in Delhi a couple of times uh before you were back in government and um seeing all the extraordinary progress that we have seen in the U.S India relationship the the partnership there is still a sense in some circles that Indians Indian American policy makers are talking past each other or you know have you seen this you know what where do we need to go to make more progress in the relationship well thanks Ken the um as a long time participant in U.S foreign policy decision making I long ago came to the conclusion that in international relations disappointment is the Delta between expectations and reality that's not a um that's not a call for low expectations but a call for uh for setting the expectations in a practical and achievable manner to have been involved with the US India relationship over 30 years is is uh let me just say it's not one one would would not have been spared by moments of frustration and I think that's fair to say on both sides um but and I think in some ways the the Indians are actually coming to grips with this evolving relationship more quickly than we are but we're getting there and we're getting there not just because we have a maturing view of India but because we have also other priorities and in relative terms Force us to confront this talking past each other that I think you you quite accurately identify has been a feature of the relationship but all that said if you graft the uh if you put the US India trajectory on a graph it would at a distance appear to be an uninterrupted Improvement in relations over the past 30 years there's just no question there will be moments where the where the line might flatten out a little bit there's a moment where moments where it might dip or it might Peak um we can all think of those moments in the past past three decades but one of the great credits to the U.S political system is that both Republican and Democratic presidents successively have taken a U.S India relationship that they inherited and left it in a better place and I think that's even the case with with administrations as uh as different as George W bush is from Barack Obama's from Donald Trump's uh to to Joe Biden's that we are uh we have been an uninterrupted trajectory uh in in the in the right direction the um that you uh the uh Minister made a very good point that's worth underscoring that one of the challenges in the relationship has been our tendency to project on the other side our understandings of how our political system works our expectations or our understandings of our interests as they are rather than meeting each other where we actually are and and I think again I have to give a little bit more credit uh to the Indians than to to my colleagues in the U.S foreign policy establishment for having arrived at that if I was objectively assessing the performance of governments and how they how they grappled with the what what many parts of the world saw as a very disruptive presidency during President Trump's presidency there's a few countries that came out of that period having handled it better than India and why is that I think it it tells us a little bit about how India sees itself the interests Prevail above all in pursuing those interests sometimes requires uh a Deft and patient approach it it uh it is uh it it for us it is a requirement to see India not as the way we might have a generation ago where uh is is as bizarre as it may seem held up against today's realities India would have been just another developing country among a non-aligned movement that is not what India is and it's frankly never what India was India's size and its scale and its potential in the world uh among U.S Partners is equal to only a handful of Nations and possibly the European Union I I think honestly we made the same mistake with China as well with some negative repercussions over time uh the way we looked at China and not understanding the size and the scale and the potential of China and how it would impact uh the world but with India we just have to I think we have to set aside some of those Notions that we might have held a generation ago and look at India as a as a major power and I think that's going to help us free up the partnership that we all want to have can I'm sorry to interrupt very quickly here I just wanted to say that you know as a business person not as a person who spent his whole life in politics and I don't really have just inside the Beltway view I have a view of Boston and Silicon Valley in New York and a lot of the friction and concerns that people have in DC are not shared when you get outside the way and if you look at the India U.S relationship it has blossomed well beyond the frictions of Delhi and Washington because of you know the business academic cultural and people-to-people linkages that have happened and it's well beyond just thinking about it from A Better Way perspective and that's part of the reason why we have this momentum and dynamism in this relationship because this natural partnership that's happening at a very organic level uh is in fact driving even the Strategic interest now let me ask you a personal question you you obviously you were immensely successful and you could have had a an extraordinarily nice life in uh Boston uh you know nice vacation homes uh you know uh Etc and you decided to go back to India and and there's so much talk about the Indian diaspora as so critical to the future of the U.S into your relationship at a was this did this happen suddenly did this for those of us who are not familiar with your your personal story I think it's a fascinating one I think it kind of embodies much of uh where we see the dynamism in India today well I come from a political family and many members of my family uh have either been in politics uh or in the civil services so I always felt that you know once I had achieved what I wanted to do professionally it was important for me to give back to my country which is where I'm from and which is why I have a successful in the first instance and really the question for me and for many people in the diaspora also I think is that if we don't do it who else is going to do it so it really is that call to action and uh you know obviously that's part of the reason why the relationship and partnership is getting stronger every day thank you Nadia let me let me let me turn to you we're obviously seeing and the the minister uh talked earlier about re-globalization in his remarks now that reglobalization in a sense that India is pursuing an inherently as uh you've you've mentioned earlier and have mentioned earlier in your writing involves a certain amount of de-risking from China and and in a sense that movement will bring India closer to the West that then uh it currently is over time even if there has been significant progress over the last few decades now as that happens what is that how do you see that impacting India's uh role as kind of uh voice of the global South do you do you see India Lydia eventually be forced to choose between the west and the global South I mean I I think that's a you know a question more for um my Indian interlocutors but I think India's made clear it doesn't intend to choose between the two and I think the United States is sort of also moving away from a sense of you have to make a choice right a recognition that instead of that dialogue really it's more about what happens in practice right the operationalizing of these new uh connections of new manufacturing hubs and centers new ecosystems around the world centered on Technology and Manufacturing and so I think in practice we will benefit from you know A Renewed India which is open to to being a center for for manufacturing and and in a whole range of areas right we saw that with Apple so I think it's it will be about operationalizing then less about forcing both countries uh you know forcing India to take aside because it's not going to take aside right as as um as Indian leaders have said it's about their national interests and and their interest is to remain a participant across the board I think you know de facto um this relationship will end up helping us achieve more diversification in our supply chains less and and change the vulnerabilities that we currently have so but it's about the operationalizing all right thank you Admiral let me ask you uh there's so much talk obviously here in Washington around the world about uh the uh new Cold War the return to a kind of to a bipolarity between the United States and the People's Republic of China now some have argued uh and particularly in Japan that what we're looking at now is not uh going to be over time a bipolar world but potentially a tripolar world India becomes uh this uh poll of deeper attraction both to the global South through which manufacturing prowess through its economic prowess and do you see this uh do you see a possible tripolarity do you see the United do you see India pulling closer to the U.S do you have any sense I mean what's your sense of the future strategic landscape uh you know the somehow I don't agree that is going to be a tribe polar world or a bipolar World mainly because if you see the economy and the scientific developments in most of the countries uh the gap with the U.S or any other Advanced country has reduced quite a lot and therefore you will have many contenders of leading those polls in various parts of the world and I I just broadly mentioned that you know I see this entire indo-pacific uh certainly in three sections and you find that the peop the countries in these sections by themselves are economically and scientifically they are so Advanced that they can actually become their own poles but what U.S is doing right now to our opinion that U.S has realized or accepted the multipolarity of the world and that is why all these you know quad you have Malabar you have so many of these uh you know togetherness so I think that with the eyesight coming into being us is also having accepted the multipolarity it is also doing uh techno polarity if you like so technologically if they got three four poles which ah which which the US wants to see so that it's the gap of China and U.S in a very broader sense that reduction uh the reduction and GAP can be prevented so you have too many of these small small centers technically capable militarily capable and economically capable so that China doesn't get to spread its wing the way it was thinking it would do and where do you see uh where do you see were the greatest polls of Attraction for India in that now which stations do you see it do you see most following the Indian example well I I really I think that the India is a big democracy and positively the democracy is sort of gelled together because if it is a chaotic system it is chaotic everywhere or if the decision makings are delayed all my co-panelists have said that and I'm glad you have a good impression of Indian bureaucracy we tend to believe that bureaucracies you know is a slowest but I think the uh you know the the pull of the democracy is just like it is in a quad that will continue to be main ah attraction and most of the democracies will probably look at this as an example I think one area where um you know India is making a big contribution is an is in global stem Talent right and the model that India seems to have seems to be uh one that maybe the U.S could learn from where we've struggled for decades over a decade in producing the sort of stem talent that our country needs but separately I wanted to make one point that could be just so that we're not all in agreement and just to just to add you know add some um potential area of disagreement could be in a future Republican Administration I think there is less confidence in the ability of the large multilateral institutions to accomplish things and I think that you will definitely see much more building on the Coalition side August other other countries um I so I think that's one area of potential you know pushback a sense of we can't work through these institutions that have not performed Well for now you know in in many respects and some of the key challenges whether it's climate whether it's electrification power energy and security that there'll be a pressure to move around them or to work within them in smaller coalitions but just a thought yeah let me on that point let me turn to Chairman shinhan ask about the role of the private sector with the you which you alluded to earlier with with regard to the mdbs which if I think from in a future Republican Administration obviously there would be a greater focus on trying to leverage private capital and to try to do so more successfully than has been done in the past um your thoughts on again that's exactly right and Nadia is correct to say that we have the same diagnosis which is that the multilateral institutions have not done the job that they were supposed to do now we have a choice either we discard them and go to you know bilateral relationships or we deform them and we've taken the position that we should reform them because unlike the US in some ways we also believe believe that we represent the voice of the global South and the interests of the global South because it definitely looks to India for leadership and which is the statement that you were alluding to from minister jayashankar at the UN as well where he said we need leadership because we want to take on more responsibility and part of that responsibility is representing the interests of the global South that won't be served in a bilateral situation can India Forge something with the U.S and you know serve its needs yes but that doesn't serve the rest of the global South so we have to we have no choices I said we have to reform these multilateral institutions so that they don't just work for India but they work for the world and that's something we have to we have to undertake we have we have no other choice to do it that way and their part of the reform process of the multilateral institutions is to be able to enable the private sector and we really have to transform these multilateral development Banks from being ones where they are just providing loans to sovereigns to actually stimulating the private sector and working with the private sector because that's the only way this is going to happen let me throw a number at you the global South needs to get to Net Zero somewhere between two to four trillion dollars a year two to four trillion dollars a year the mdbs the philanthropies the governments of the world just simply don't have that kind of financing capacity it has to come from private sector and therefore the role of the mdbs is really to be a catalyst for the private sector it's going to have to be one uh that is driven and led by the private sector and that's where we are philosophically very much in alignment with the US's thinking in this regard but it's got to work for everybody thank you Steve let me ask you about that you you the trade agenda between the U.S and India what do we need uh to do on the policy side as you see things did I mention uh it can be frustrating to work on um I actually think it's broader than just the trade relationship Ken just as I was speaking about an evolution and how we are thinking about India as a as a political military power I think we also have to very much uh think long and hard about how Western businesses in particular look at India as a trading partner and as a an investment location in the uh in the decade and a half I was with Ford Motor Company we were rather aggressive in moving out to build a presence in India with manufacturing facilities in Chennai and sunanda in the state of Gujarat we had I.T a little bit of engineering headquarters in Delhi I left the company in 2018 in the in the seven in the uh five years since Ford has pretty much completely exited the market the state of the art facility that was built in sanan was closed in in the facility in Chennai uh it was uh likewise uh uh Ford exited and I've pondered in those years since how all that hard work came it didn't come to fruition and and I think that it it illustrates for me a reality of how Western businesses are going to have to approach the Indian market in order to succeed and in short I think the lesson might be we have to become Indian businesses the um the India has for a long time made sense and will continue at some level to make sense as a place for lower cost sourcing for excellent engineering talent for backroom I.T Services all those things will continue to to serve a purpose to benefit Western businesses in their Global business but it has a very low ceiling and I think that if I look back in hindsight what I'd see is that you're going to hit that low ceiling especially in business to Consumer businesses that in the end when you when you reach kind of the the point of that of that Continuum where you want to enter the Indian Market on scale what you end up doing is simply exporting an expensive business model into India and not succeeding against against the local competition and so you know to get to the part of the Indian business and trade and investment that's the high ceiling it's going to be to try to become an Indian company essentially and I think that's where the opportunity is and then the trade flows will come but they will be intercompany trade flows they won't necessarily be building something at scale in India and exporting it globally particularly in markets that are deeply sensitive on tariff issues to uh to a lower cost product coming out of India and won't provide Market access absent or reciprocal Free Trade Agreement which to me seems deeply challenging from from all recent experience so I think particularly in the business to Consumer businesses but also more broadly in a country of 1.4 billion people with the future potential the current and future potential that India has um we have to look at it differently this is this is this is very different than simply a low-cost sourcing strategy or building something inexpensively and exporting around the world we have to think about it like we think our own country how do we build our Industries and and how do we become part of that in India a big question I would have is if companies do that will they be seen and treated as an Indian company as well but I think you have a much better chance of acquiring that that level of treatment for Better or For Worse quite frankly because the bureaucracy and and things like that are real for any company I think you have a better chance of succeeding as an Indian company let me ask the uh the the determine Sinha about his reaction because because that's that's to me that sounds like quite a warning to those who are looking to India including a number of major American companies that are trying to de-risk and move out of uh China looking to India potentially as a manufacturing center well it's a reality check not a warning and if you look at the automotive sector in India maruti and Hyundai a Korean company and a Japanese company have been super successful so it's not as if companies are not successful in India but it's exactly what Steve said is that if you want to be a large-scale player in India in Indian business you have to be an Indian business I cannot be an Indian business in America if I want to be successful in America and build a multi-billion Dollar business I've got to be an American company which by the way our I.T services companies have also learned right exactly as they have transformed themselves so that's uh that's a truism for business everywhere if you want to build a large scale successful business you have to be operating as a very domestic business with all of the competitive factors of production that you have to Marshal and that's true for an American Business in India it's true for the European business it's true for a Japanese business but those that Master that whether it's a Unilever whether it's a maruti whether it's an HSBC whether it is some of the other very successful multinationals who are in India they then are able to not only do very very well in India's Market which is vast now and of course we are the fifth soon to be the third largest economy in the world but also they become a production platform for the rest of the world because what you do is you Ma you are able to master the value engineering the affordability the very competitive manufacturing that is required to be successful in India and that translates very well not just to South Africa and Indonesia but also to the US also so some of the the most affordable tractors in the US are being made by Mahindra right so it becomes a production platform for a particular type of customer which is much more affordability oriented and value oriented and there's some talk now that artificial intelligence and you can't have a panel these days I'm watching without mentioning it so I've mentioned it but that that is going to allow for a kind of transformation with regard to manufacturing for places like India to sort of achieve at a much lower cost the kind of craftsmanship that has that has eluded um in certain sectors I don't know well we have worried about it on the other side which is like if you end up automating the programming and so on then we can lose you know some of our I.T Services exports Etc so we don't know which way it's going to cut yet so we have to we have to wait and see let me let me turn it to the audience for questions here and let me ask please identify yourself ask a question uh and uh direct it to somebody on the panel if you prefer to thank you and keep trying to keep the question short this thing my name is adhan Kishore I'm a student at the American University and also an analyst at The Institute for the study of War my question to the panel is about freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea so one consensus in the United States is that the warm reception of prime minister Narendra Modi and the partnership agreements that were followed uh the understanding is to have India in its on its side in a likely invasion of Taiwan or perhaps a more uh coercive assertiveness in South China Sea so is to what extent is India willing to contribute in this uh Collective deterrence in the indo-pacific led by the United States if yes will we will New Delhi be engaging in Freedom of navigation operations in South China Sea with other client states of the United States thank you all right well you want to take it no when it comes to freedom of navigation the Indian um articulation has been that we believe in free and open sea but that India will do as far as its trade is concerned not for war fighting because when you are in a situation like War then you have to be an ally and we are not in Ally independently the Indian warships are actually doing freedom of navigation they are warned by the Chinese quite often but uh you know that that's it it stops there we have to Traverse through that route not only for our commercial ships but also for our warships which go to many other ports taking that way so I think that we are already doing it but as a as a part of a task force or something I suspect that will not happen till such time you become an ally which I don't foresee happening and on the adjacent side I mean just a very small issue but the US and India have just apparently signed a defense cooperation agreement to allow refueling of ships at Sea so I'm not sure if that's a signal in in a direction or not but they're already doing that in the in South China Sea because last Malabar exercise it happened in South China Sea okay so all four movies were operating they were fueling with each other so it's okay you you will you will get to hear from them but it stops there it didn't look yeah Mr Cena can I ask you a more domestic question so uh back when demonetization was done the black money in the real estate got took a hit and then a lot of homes became affordable for the middle class uh since then we have become a more digital economy at the same time there's the black money has risen again in the Indian real estate so my question is is a government thinking about you know phasing out the 500 rupee notes because that's probably the biggest note and then you know that that probably could help ah stabilize the real estate and then we make it more affordable again I'll have to reject your statement where you say that there's more black money in real estate now which isn't true uh because we brought in a number of controls to prevent uh cash usage in real estate transactions or in transactions in general and of course because of the circle rates having gone up and so on if you do a susp you know transaction that looks very dubious it's instantly flagged and as a result of that plus of course the real estate regulations that have come in through Rara I think real estate as such in India now is is very much uh you know uh being operated the right way in in the legal and correct way now so I'm not sure I would agree with your proposition at all and as far as the currency question is concerned I think the Reserve Bank of India has been very clear about its policies uh in in that regard thank you very much my name is rajinder Singh I'm working with the World Bank my question is in Telecom equipment manufacturing you know currently South Korea China and to some extent Europe they are dominating the market how India and U.S can work together so that we also have our share of the pie particularly in Telecom equipment manufacturing I know India is doing a lot of work on 5G indigenous technology development so can there be a good collaboration between the two countries thank you yeah yes I think so I mean I think that's you know that's an important area of cooperation and possibility and also in pushing for standards that benefit both of our countries right in international standards bodies um so I think it's a great opportunity to move you know in that direction I think when um when Steve is at the state department you'll know more but there was an effort to sort of work on clean networks and working together to produce uh you know to develop clean networks in the ICT area yeah so the um I I think the economic imperative can't be separated out from the National Security imperative when it comes to to networks and we've seen a cooperation with a number of countries including India we have to recognize that collaboration is going to be essential in order to get the economies of scale because ultimately price has been one of the driving factors for the spread of certain Technologies from certain sources uh in the in the networks of of countries around the world and also um just as with chip manufacturing the United States allowed its its own capacity in this area to atrophy over a number of decades that's being reversed now but uh very it's very important that that we not only find a way to scale up quickly but find Partners in India India would be an excellent partner India's Got huge Ambitions uh as a still a largely an importer of telecommunications equipment in the United States and India working together I think could could create the foundation for quite a bit of success it's going to require um you know regulatory steps that are going to allow that it's going to stand on a foundation of trust between the United States and India along the lines that Nadia just described the The Trusted Network approach that the United States pioneered but I think in Broad Strokes the United States and India do see this very similarly I must tell you that the ICT agreement which is uh stands between by India and U.S it is articulated in this document that U.S and India will work and use the ICT to develop both military and civil communication Technologies including 5G advanced technology like 5G so it is part of the one of the agreement you know paragraphs in the ICT document so there is no doubt that it will improve it may take a little bit of time a lot of money is being sort of sunk into this from both sides so hopefully you will see it right George and then we'll go to Clio yeah I'm from Houston Texas I work for JPMorgan Chase and active Community member the relation in the in the industry of Aviation between India and Boeing it goes probably around eight to nine decades that's when the journey started my question is a lot of developments happen in terms of collaboration you know like in India like research and development supply chain and all that but are there any plans for Boeing to have the direct manufacturing that can happen in India in the near future thank you thank you so uh first of all I I do want to uh credit chairman for his uh incredible contribution to deepening Boeing's relationship with India and Boeing has a very successful business Boeing is today the largest Aerospace manufacturer in India and we do have a a Manufacturing in India in in different parts of our business keeping in mind that we're a full spectrum Aerospace company not just in commercial Aviation but also in defense uh in services in space in the aftermath of prime minister modi's a very successful visit this year we've expanded plans in India in in some particular areas of of focus that we discussed with the Prime Minister including in uh including increasing the number of women involved in aviation in India which is a real opportunity because quite frankly Aviation both in the manufacturing site as well on the operating side is facing a huge deficit of talent right now globally because of the expanding demand for for um air travel around the world we're also expanding in a number of areas that are important building blocks for a business with uh with potential to grow in any direction we want we we're building uh facilities for the maintenance and repair and overhaul of aircraft in in several locations both in partnership with the Indian Air Force as well as on a commercial basis the sky is the limit but we have to proceed up a progression to see what uh what potential there is in the market Aerospace industry I particularly in the commercial side is a duopoly between two companies right now although Boeing has an excellent partnership with Hindustan Aerospace limited as well so we've we're deeply involved in the Union Market both as a as a a manufacturer of a significant portions of the aircraft as well as with the um with the commercial carriers themselves which have also been transformed again chairman under your leadership the the privatization of the industry in India has unleashed the potential for a huge growth with the with several Chinese Airlines including Air India but also Indigo and Arkansas and and it's very much a market competition now too so there will also be certain imperatives on how you how you um how you find the most competitive way to do business not just with Indian aerospace companies and and carriers but also uh with global markets so I you know I think it would be premature to make any any predictions on on where this future goes but I would just say that that um the ceiling seems very high if if one grows the business strategically like we hope to do in India thank you thank you Steve but I will say now that for India the sky is not the limit on the South Pole of of the moon so we are reaching and and and and as a space company as well yeah it wasn't lost on us that that price tag was 70 million dollars for that uh that's right we did it very affordably and that is one of India's great successfully and I can say to you as as the former Aviation Minister that we're very committed to Growing the entire Aviation ecosystem Aerospace space all of that in India it's obviously commercially very important it's strategically very important for India and we look to valued Partners like Boeing like Airbus and others to actually start to really grow Indian manufacturing uh in aviation and in Aerospace as well you should know that as far as defense is concerned we are going to be starting to assemble full planes on the defense side and we very much want to be able to also make commercial airliners we already make smaller 19 seaters which we are doing in kanpur right now so there's no reason why we can't eventually be able to make commercial airliners as well which of course you know Boeing and Airbus and others will help us get there but given how large Aviation Market is and how fast it's growing and again the fact that India can serve as a very valuable production platform for the world I think it's inevitable that it's going to happen when I can't tell you 10 years 20 years but definitely you know in that time Horizon we should be building full airliners in India right we have time for two more questions uh first George bargain in the back row and then we go to Cleo Pascal in the back room thank you so much Ken um my name is George Bogdan I'm a research fellow at Columbia University in a Hudson Alem recently the new president of the Council of Foreign Relations Ambassador Froman said that one of his objectives is to rebuild the Washington consensus and I wonder in American Indian relations whether you think that that kind of project has a kind of inherent irritant in that it it suggests a kind of pretension for universality and how Washington might see things so if you have any comment on that appreciate it thanks I'm not sure I know what the Washington consensus is on on India but I will say I will repeat what I said earlier which is the the trajectory is is quite good I don't think we're in any desperate need of a rebuild in in U.S India relations and so um I I didn't see the comments so I don't want to you know want to unfairly disagree with um with the gentleman who said it but I will say that I think the most pressing need in the U.S India relationship is some hard work we have already have a very ambitious agenda and it's one that uh thankfully as a foreign policy professional I find is supported by the largest part of the spectrum of American politics when it comes to foreign policy priorities the India relationship is one that's cherished by both Republicans and Democrats in the United States of America so we don't really from the U.S perspective at least I don't see any need to rebuild uh anything what I I see the the real opportunity ahead of us is is to build as fast as we can I think it's probably I would just add probably the wrong phrase to use right based on especially what the foreign minister said earlier so it should be a consensus around a set of principles right but but a phrase like that probably doesn't uh it's not going to achieve what he wants but I like to think in terms of the specific principles around which we can you know share uh that we share and then identifying those no I think there is a difference in world view at some level between what I hear from my friends in America and how we in India see the world uh and this Washington consensus common touches on that to some extent we are not going back to the post Cold War era that is you know 1990s I mean I grew up in that world I loved it I enjoyed it but we are not going back to that the world is very different it's not going to be a unipolar world I don't even think it's going to be a bipolar world it's going to be very much a multi-polar world which is the view we have in India Mr minister jayashankar is has articulated it very very well in his own book and when we are in a multi-polar world to try and reach back to a consensus that existed in the 90s committee to save the world you know all of that talk uh I I don't think we can go back to all of that we're going to have a much more complicated much more Dynamic much more fluid world of Shifting alliances multipolar power centers and we're going to have to Grapple and deal with that that introduces a lot of complexity and people like to go back to Simplicity but frankly that's not the world we are in now yeah I think the other I think the other other factor that that makes that really impossible is that the post post-world War II era wasn't just about the era it was about the war and if you think about the nature of the security relationships and alliances the United States formed in the aftermath of that war with countries like Germany and Japan with countries across the across NATO and after the uh after the Korean war with Korea as well these were countries that were ravaged by conflict and that were laid bare for the political contest that existed in that era of the Cold War and necessitated in the view of the United States of America the need to have strong treaty Alliance relationships with with stationed U.S forces oftentimes almost in all cases inside the countries with which we had those security relationships and we're in a very different world now and and this is not going to be what the U.S India security relationship looks like it's it's it's going to be less akin to a a marriage of interests and mutual defense commitments illegal legally based marriage of sorts and more common law marriage approach of two countries which have a deep appreciation for each other and see strong interests in working together and deepening that relationship over time it doesn't make it a weaker relationship it's just gonna it's it's just a fact of history that it's not going to have the attributes of the countries that emerged from the devastation of World War II or the war on the Korean peninsula okay let's turn it to cleopascal for the last question goodness I better keep it short then Cleo Pascal FDD um a quick question on the Pacific issue of this uh so um uh with Prime Minister Modi going to the Pacific Islands that's clearly become a priority for India uh they're under a lot of PRC political Warfare uh effort which is something that India's seen in the Indian Ocean so uh for the Admiral uh if there are Lessons Learned From how India's handled PRC political Warfare in the Indian Ocean islands that are relevant for the Pacific Islands and if I may uh Dr shadlow if there are things that were areas where the US and India could work together in the Pacific Islands and whether that would be welcome by India perhaps chairman thank you uh well the India is quite happy to call this entire region as indo-pacific as you know uh also the conferences that we are having more and more we are tending to get the Pacific island countries into our fold so it is actually work in progress and I I suspect that you know the U.S taking everybody together in this entire indo-pacific will be quite welcome because we are there to assist these countries we are already helping them to develop their capability some some of these capabilities which are ah you know the lawmaker mentioned now and our foreign minister mentioned about it for example you know the uh communication um other technology skill development uh financial transaction digitization so those kind of soft approaches India is already doing with this country uh but making it you know more security related I think we are some distance away I think that we could actually do a lot in in other areas critical minerals is one area as well see bed mining is a really important area and it also helps to diversify our in that area which we need right and secondly I think also in terms of infrastructure building we can work with the Indians on on some infrastructure specific projects I think it's a really great opportunity and I think it's good that the leaders of the Pacific Islands came to Washington last week and it was an important initiative by the Biden Administration that you know we should give them credit for their comments well on that note I'd like to wrap things up I want to thank the panelists I want to thank the India Foundation I want to thank you and the audience and this really was a remarkable conversation so thank you so very much thank you

Channel: Hudson Institute

Views: 88,814

Keywords: Hudson, Institute

Id: XbT_aNSJNe4

Length: 133min 20sec (8000 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 29 2023