EAM Jaishankar LIVE: Discussion at Hudson Institute in Washington DC

a future filled with conflict this is a therefore this is a critical time for us to not only better understand but better figure figure out ways to work together as we have never worked together before is a member of the Upper House of India's Parliament before assuming his current role in government he served as foreign secretary and has been India's ambassador to the United States and his em the India's ambassador to the People's Republic of China among other countries I I don't I think don't think I need to tell this group he is one of the most respected diplomats in the world he is considered one of the most confident [Applause] and around the world if people have problems they frequently call him to help them sort it out he is uh also the author of a best-selling book the India way strategies for an uncertain World which is compellingly articulates India's current and future position in the world and I recommend it highly many times people want to understand others through distance I think it's very important to use the expertise of people who are at the front line and have thought deeply and experience deeply the the issues that are going to shape our world joining him as for this discussion is Walter Russell Mead he is the Raven will be Curry the third distinguished fellow in strategy and statesmanship at Hudson Institute many of you know him as the global view columnist of the Wall Street Journal and he is the James James Clark chance professor of Foreign Affairs and Humanities at Bard College in New York Walter multitasks he's author of numerous books including the widely recognized special provenance America's foreign policy and how it changed the world his newest book Arc of a covenant the United States Israel and the fate of the Jewish people has been recognized by the New York Times The Wall Street Journal as best book of the year ladies and gentlemen thank you for joining us for this important discussion please join me in welcoming Dr Josh Anker and my colleague Walter Russell Mead [Applause] and I think we'll begin with Dr jashankar speaking for a few minutes and then we will go to question answer would you like to speak from the podium or from here it would be yes yeah okay terrific good morning good morning to all of you and uh it's a real pleasure to be back here it's been some years but of course we've been talking to each other I was told that the topic for the day is India and the new Pacific order am I correct uh now I wasn't sure whether the Pacific was with a capital P or a small P but either way we are into it uh now uh uh for many people I think particularly in the United States uh it's probably uh a new idea something something very different to think of India uh in terms of the Pacific region Pacific order uh the Pacific Community of Nations and the fact that we have such a title and it seems natural today is an indication actually is one indication of what has changed in the world uh viewed from India's perspective uh we today do much more business to the east of India than we do to the west of India historically uh we we look at our key trade Partners we look at our important economic Partners we look at a lot of our strategic interests a lot of it is today uh extending eastwards into the Pacific and Beyond now what this has given rise to in the last few years is a concept of indo-pacific that too has been uh readily embraced by many and contested by a few but again it's a it's a concept that has actually gained ground uh I often reflect on the fact that the separation in a way of the Indian Indian Ocean and the Pacific region is is something actually which is an outcome really of the second world war that Yvonne looked at a global strategy and Global understanding before that the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean were dealt with in a much more integrated way with the emphasis on the Indian and so in some ways what you are seeing today of the indo-pacific coming together the idea of India contributing in many ways to a Pacific order is something which reflects really the rebalancing that is today taking place in the world uh rebalancing in which the changed capabilities positioning and attitudes of the United States is the central driving Factor but also in one in which the rise of China and its implications is a obviously a very very crucial issue but to which makes I mean there are many other moving Parts but one of an important one is also that of India now related to the indo-pacific again over the last six years another concept which has gained ground is that of the Quad it was revived in 2017. after a gap it was attempted first in 2007. ah it did not last it was revived after a decade it's an interesting question why it worked this time when it did not work the first time not just worked but if you see in 17 it was done at a at a bureaucratic level at a under secretary level in the U.S in 19 it became a ministerial Forum in 21 it became a presidential Prime ministerial forum and at every stage people there were people who said well you know this is where it sort of Fizzles out and it seems to be growing from strength to strength and we will have the privilege of hosting the summit next year in India in terms of the Pacific order I think a lot of the global concerns are most acute in the Pacific one is you know one of course is the larger issue of how do you maintain stability in the middle of very major change taking place because often sharp changes and balances of power and interest and influence can create risks which which whose management therefore becomes a very crucial issue ah but there are some other I think key issues today uh in the world uh which Center particularly around the Pacific one of them is the building of reliable and resilient Supply chains uh because uh the experiences of the last few years have taught us their importance the other is the promotion of trust and transparency on anything to do with digital so whether it's Telecom or whether it's artificial intelligence or whether it's the car that you are driving you really today the importance of trusted providers trusted sources trusted geographies I think this is today a very very big issue the third is the over concentration of production of especially of manufacturing that if you have over concentration which is liable to be leveraged uh you know had it happened in any of our national economies it would have attracted Anti-Trust provisions yet it happens in the world and we are all blissfully we are sanguine about it so what you know what are the dangers of over concentration what are the implications of over concentration how are they leveraged how are they weaponized uh I think is a very big issue today in the world and if you put it together I would suggest to you that the world is badly in need of some form of re-globalization that globalization itself is undeniable it is it has struck very deep roots it has tremendous benefits nobody doubts that but the particular model of globalization which has evolved over the last 25 years uh obviously has a lot of risks inherent in it and today how to address those risks and create a safer world is part of the challenge facing the Pacific order so let me just end with one last remark because John there was something you said which was India and the United States have never really worked before together I think that is a very thoughtful observation because dealing with each other is not the same as working with each other and in the past we have we have always dealt with each other sometimes not entirely happily but working with each other is a is a new Israeli Uncharted Territory it is a territory which we have both entered in the last few years and it has required both of us really to overcome what my prime minister called the hesitations of history when he spoke to the Congress a few years ago so how do we how do we create that ability and the convergences and hopefully the Comfort to work together I think that would be very crucial to the future of the Pacific order so perhaps with those remarks Walter if you would allow me we can start the conversation terrific thank you [Applause] thank you uh thanks for those remarks and thank you so much for being here you really do Hudson great honor um I I want to say I'm especially grateful because while Hudson is a nonpartisan Think Tank and we work with people in both parties many would say that Hudson has closer relations sometimes with the Republican party so we especially appreciate that you have reached out in a way in a bipartisan way toward the opposition it's a it reminds us that both India and the United States are democracies do believe in pluralism and we at Hudson appreciate this sign of India's concern faith in that principle um this is also by the way I just saw yesterday that Swami nadan had died at 98 I believe he was an example of Indian American cooperation not on the governmental level but his work with Norman burlog helped establish the Green Revolution which has been transformational in the lives of literally billions of people in India and around the world and this is you know this reminds me at least of what the U.S and India what Americans and Indians can accomplish together and I hope we will be seeing more of it uh Minister Jay Schenker between oh I should say first to before I get into my questions that he has agreed to take questions from the floor and the way we do this at Hudson is we ask people to email questions I know you all have cell phones here I know you you you know how to text while listening so I'm going to we ask you to send questions to press p-r-e-s-s at hudson.org and uh those questions will come up to me I'll have an opportunity to look at them consolidate them where we have several questions on the same topic and perhaps also forestall the possibility it's not unknown that sometimes people confuse questions with speeches so uh please do that and we will conclude the meeting with your questions um at the G20 and elsewhere we hear that India is looking for a change in international architecture or in in the way World politics works and World institutions I've also heard India described as a reformist rather than as a revisionist power it seeks real change in the status quo but not necessarily in Us in in the way that perhaps some of our colleagues and friends in Russia and and China might do what is it that India is looking for in in in change in the world situation and how does that affect do you think India's vision of where we're all going uh well let me put it to you this way that you know the world as we live it today is largely a western construct now uh if you looked at the world architecture to use your words uh there's been obviously enormous change in the last eight years uh one looked at the major economies of the 1940s and 50s they are very different from the major economies today and nothing illustrates it more than the G20 itself ah so the the list of the G20 will tell you is is the easiest way of actually uh you know getting a sense of the changes in the world now uh for India uh when we confront a largely Western created architecture obviously we would like to encourage and facilitate and induce and pressurize changes which are badly needed but we it is done it as a to add a non-western layer and a input so I I make this very important distinction by India's concerned India is non-western India is not anti-western so when we speak about you know and and I'll give you an example which we discussed even at the G20 ah it's very clear today that uh you know if we are going we are serious about climate action if you are looking to sustain you know to ensure that sustainable development goals are well resourced uh then uh somewhere we have to find the Financial Muscle for that now for us to ah it is the international financial institutions the bank the World Bank and the fund which will be at the at the core of that effort so a lot of what we are seeking to do is to improve and I would say refresh institutions make them more fit for purpose and that even applies to the United Nations you know we do believe today that you know a United Nations where the most populous country is not in the security Council when the fifth largest economy is not there when a continent of 50 plus countries is not there uh that United Nations obviously lacks credibility and to a large degree Effectiveness as well so the whole you know when we approach the world it's not uh it's not with a you know sort of pull down the pillars kind of approach it is it is very much you know what can we do to make it better fitter efficient purposeful that's the kind of mindset we bring today well I I have to say I I find myself in agreement with with much of what you say especially when I look at the United Nations and I think that in the official U.N system India is sort of said to be equal to Luxembourg they both have one vote in the general assembly I like luxemba well I have nothing against actually you know if you're ever in Luxembourg eat the duck it's fantastic okay but um they uh you know but the idea that that those two political entities should be equally weighted in the United Nations is I think a you know an absurdity that future Generations will will not be able to understand when they look back at our times now over the summer you said that there are three big Eurasian Powers Russia China and India and that the indo-russian relationship is not transactional this is geopolitical how do you see india-russia relations especially at a time where Russia and China appear here to be working much more closely together than before you know uh this approach is not something new in fact since Independence in India this has been the basic thinking about our geopolitical predicament ah which is if there are three major polities occupying the land mass the central land mass of the world then how do you ensure that there is a balance and how do you ensure you are not facing an adverse balance now we had a phase I would say late 40s which were particularly testing for us you know this was when Star you know this is still Stalin's Soviet Union at that time and uh I think the Indian diplomacy very sensibly set to work uh on on the basic international relations principle of your neighbor's neighbor so your neighbor's neighbor is intrinsically well disposed towards you so since the 50s actually there's been a very uh you know systematic Mutual cultivation now it's not just us thinking about Soviet Union now Russia is also the Russians thinking about India with the same principle and the same logic in mind ah now that actually is such a powerful logic at least in our part of the world that if you consider international relations over the last 70 years you know the U.S Russian relations the china-russia relations the U.S China relations Europe pretty much every big relationship in the last 70 years has seen a great deal of volatility you had sharp ups and downs the India Russia is very exceptional it's been very steady it may not it may not be spectacular you know so it may it may have stabilized at a certain certain level but it has not seen that kind of ups and downs which your relations with Russia or China's relations with Russia or Europe's relationship with Russia is seeing through and that's in itself a statement now if one looks at the world today Russia Today I think as a as a consequence of what is going on in Ukraine it is it seems to me clear and I assume it seems to them clear that in many ways Russia's relationship with the West has broken down ah and in that case it's logical that Russia focuses more on the Asian side of Russia though historically Russia has always seen itself as a European uh path so you are actually seeing a reinvention of Russia by as a consequence of what is happening in Ukraine and you can see you know much of that will naturally focus on China because that's the first and the largest country and economy that Russia encounters when it turns when it Wheels around and looks at Asia but then again India will will and has come into calculations as well so I would predict actually Russia which would consciously focus on the non-western world away from Europe away from the United States look much more at Asia look possibly at other regions as well but Asia is economically the most active so so I guess that's what you're going to see okay um there's a growing recognition in the United States and India I think bolstered by prime minister modi's tremendously successful visit last summer that our two countries interests are broadly and even strategically aligned in a way perhaps they have not been in the past and this is that shift from dealing with one another to working with one another that you mentioned where do you see the principal areas where our interests are aligned and what areas of tension and difference do you see at this point um I would say they are aligned in a set of areas in a in a kind of a geostrategic way they are aligned that we both want to see a certain stability and a certain set of rules and a certain I would say distribution of power which which is advantageous to both of us and our interests are not clashing in that respect so at a at the biggest picture level I would say there's a very powerful case really for India and on the U.S to work together so if you look even within within our systems uh you know historically it was actually a national security side which had the greatest suspicion of reservations about each other today it's the National Security side which is the most enthusiastic about it the second is actually the economic side but an economic side which is a very heavily Tech focused yes because if one looks at the direction of the global economy in fact you look at our own lives the the tech component of ah of what we use and do and live amidst is increasing and this this what you can call it the knowledge economy you know the information embedded economy I think has created again a very powerful new convergence between us because at a Global level the United States will need Partners India will need opportunities and and possibilities so to me you know if we are today talking about about I said if you are you know if you look at American priorities like the IRA and the the chips act I think these are all factors which will create a a stronger uh sort of bonding so if you can get the ah I think if the the politics works and the economics get stronger then obviously there's a very very strong convergence and we asked me where are the where could there be or where are the problems you know we will we are both we are democratic societies we are incredibly diverse but we are diverse in very different ways and we are very internally argumentative and externally I mean argumentative would be a mild word so so what happens is I think we will have double b occasions where there will be that rub or that friction and it will happen also because in a globalized world our arguments are no longer contained in a national sphere ah you know people who think who have a Viewpoint in India will reach out to people who have a similar Viewpoint in the U.S and vice versa are today political arguments are very very Global and often if you if you are having a global conversation but not necessarily a global cultural understanding of each other I think there's plenty of room there for for uh for friction ah often you know I I read judgments or I hear people say things in the U.S and and sometimes in India too where we are looking at the other Society completely from our own template from our own experience and I think that would be an issue well I certainly would agree that both from my experience both Americans and Indians lead the world in moral lectures we're we're both both of our societies are we've been doing it long ago yes no you have a deeper you have a deeper experience I I won't deny um but kind of along these lines I know that when Prime Minister Modi was here a number of uh of American Representatives boycotted his address to Congress some did I don't know if I'd use the word a number well a number can be a small number it doesn't have to be a big one and uh I know I wrote a column about India in the Wall Street Journal and I got a Le there was a letter to the editor from Cardinal Dolan who was a very well respected man I personally respect tremendously uh to the journal expressing his concern that I hadn't said enough in my column about problems of religious minorities in in India so um how how would you sort of try to shape the conversation or how would you respond to some of these concerns that that people have here uh it would be a mix because you know I think different people uh uh if I I don't know Cardinal Dolan uh I'm a little more familiar with American politicians including members of Congress so I'm not you know I know many of them have a strong views often ah electorally driven sometimes culturally driven all of that so I'm a little hesitant to address specific examples so but as a broad proposition yes yes uh look as a broad proposition uh you know all I can say where India is concerned is the underlying culture of India is deeply pluralistic in fact I cannot think of any society in the world and I've lived in many of them whether I look at Europe or look at North America and North America us is very pluralistic China I've lived in Russia the the diversity and the layers that you get in India and you can slice it in different ways it could be ethnicity it could be faith it could be language it could be Traditions uh it's it's in it's actually unique it's it's truly in multiple accesses the most diverse space in the world now ah it is something now when you have that kind of diversity that diversity will always have its own conversations and discussions it will be there will be attempts to get a certain balance right there will be Corrections there will be Recollections it's in the nature of diversity the only way you won't have those dialogues is when you don't have diversity or when you have imposed something so strong that you know everything is okay in that place because everybody has either been forced to agree or condition to agree with each other so we actually are a much more loser Society where uh there are you know there's a almost a natural inclination to disagree and that is our national character now when you have people who do not who have not come through that experience who for them you know are listening it's like you're listening to the next room you really don't know the people in the Next Room you're picking snatches of conversation and then you are making a judgment or a opinion based on that particular sound bite that that you picked up so ah today if since you brought up the issue of minorities in India look what is the what is the uh test really of of uh of fair and good governance or of the balance of a society it would be whether in terms of uh you know the the amenities the benefits the access the rights do you discriminate or not you know and and in every society in the world at some point there's been some discrimination on some basis so if you look at India Today ah you know and and I you know it's it's a it's a society today where there's a tremendous change taking place because people are get I mean the biggest change happening today in India is the creation of a social welfare system in a society which has less than three thousand dollars per capita income nobody's done that in the world before now when you look at the benefits of that you look at housing you look at Health you look at Food you look at Finance you look at you know educational Access Health Access there's no you know I I defy you to show me discrimination I mean in fact the the more digital we have become uh the more uh more in a way faceless the the governance has become actually it's become fairer but as I said this is a globalized world there will be people you know you will have people gripe about it and lot of much of the wrapping is also political let me be very Frank with you because we've also had a culture of vote Banks and there are there are sections who had in their own eyes or certain privileged taxes who today May May resent the fact that they don't and you know it's a phenomenon with which you are not unfamiliar and I think these will be the turbulence of a Democratic Society when are we in the United States have had the experience not only of lectures from India but lectures from Canada and uh you know I think uh you know they look at you as the global South yeah uh they uh it's it's one of the more interesting relationships and um uh I think Dean Atchison once wrote an essay about Canadian criticisms of the United States and he titled its Stern daughter of the voice of God um but uh certainly the Canadian Prime Minister has made some serious charges recently but I also see that from press reports that you have met while you're in Washington with um a national security adviser Sullivan with our secretary of state uh Lincoln and that's this subject has come up can you give us any information about uh how this is is or isn't affecting U.S India relations where this all matters stands now from your perspective uh okay no so let me start with Canada yes the Canadian Prime Minister made some allegations initially privately and publicly and our response to him both in private and public where that what he was alleging was not consistent with our policy and that if he had if his government had anything relevant and specific they would like us to look into we were open to looking at it now that's where that conversation is at this point of time but to understand that conversation you have to also appreciate that this has been an issue of great friction for many years with Canada in fact going back to the 1980s then it became dormant but in the last few years it has come back very much into play because of what we consider to be a very permissive Canadian attitude towards terrorists extremists people who openly Advocate violence and they have been given operating space in Canada because of the compulsions of Canadian politics I don't think most Americans you know for for Americans perhaps Canada looks very different uh but uh you know uh it it sort of it depends you know from where the interests where the shoe pinches for us it has certainly been a country where uh organized crime from India uh mixed with trafficking in people mixed with secessionism violence terrorism it's it's a very toxic combination of issues and people who have found operating space there so a lot of our tensions with Canada which well preceded what Mr Trudeau said actually come out of out of that and today today I am actually in a situation where my diplomats are unsafe going to the Embassy or to the consulates in Canada in Canada they are publicly intimidated and that has actually compelled me to temporarily suspend even Visa operations in Canada so ah so as I said you know often countries look very different depending on how you see them and what your interests are but I have this problem in Canada and so your question uh did I speak about it with Jake Sullivan and Tony blinken yes I did and no well the uh let's put it this way uh they you know they they obviously uh shared uh uh you know U.S views and uh assessments uh on this whole situation and I explained to them at some length you know what I gave you was a was a summary of the concerns which I had so I I think uh hopefully we both came out of those meetings better informed great well thank you well we are about to go to audience questions and I see I have some here but while I'm looking at them uh could you do you have any advice for Americans who think who want to learn more about India where should young people or older people who are interested in this where should they go to to learn about this country that is looming larger and larger you're an American foreign policy and in world affairs um you know it look it's figure out ways it's hard to give a general advice but I would say uh I mean and this really flows from our own conversation today that in whatever profession people are I think it would be useful to try to see how that particular profession or that particular set of interests are doing in India because there may be experiences there there may be uh there may be thoughts their ideas there which people would would find uh useful I you know for a for many many years India has been an absorber an active Searcher for Best Practices around the world I think today we can also contribute to to best practices I mean I I give you some very very different examples of this uh I I mean you would have all seen that a very a very persuasive advocacy of yoga over the last decade has improved Global health so if anybody wants to get up in the morning and wants to have a better day I mean my suggestion is please you know look at your phone and find the most conducive yoga practice but on the other hand if you are someone in the digital world and you see really how creatively today uh you know digital mediums and practices are being embraced and I give you an example you know that if you are going shopping in India today you can leave your wallet behind you can't leave your phone behind because most likely the person you're buying something from will not accept cash will want you to pull out your phone look at the QR code and make a cashless payment now we are clocking last year we clocked 90 billion cashless Financial payments just for a reference the US was about three uh and China was 17.6 this year we probably would exceed I saw the June figures it was 9 billion transactions in June alone so I'm giving you that as an example I mean you know uh Street vendors today will have a QR code on their cart and say you know just make your payment there so it could be digital it could be Wellness it could be food habits it could it could even be you know this this whole discussion today we have about pluralism identity culture tradition uh I think there are things to learn there and I equally you know just so that people don't think I'm back to that moralizing path that you know I I do think Indians too uh you know are getting very Global they're in you know the world comes at you every waking hour through this wonderful instrument we carry with us and the more we absorb the better off yeah okay great well now I have some questions from the audience to ask we have one from a uh one of my fellow press reptiles who is here in the uh uh group today has asked has has said that um President Biden appeared confident enough in the intelligence about alleged Indian government involvement in the Cana in the murder of Hardeep Singh Najar to raise the issue with Prime Minister Modi the G20 he asks what have you done in response to the U.S and other Western concerns maybe we've answered some of this already but sure yeah I think I answered that you've okay you've answered it okay we move on um we this is from someone at a think tank we see India playing an increasingly important role in new multilateral groups like The G20 quad I2 U2 India Middle East economic quarter Etc is the Indian government looking to utilize this diplomatic momentum to strengthen more Regional grouping such as s-a-aarc the Indian Ocean Rim Association particularly the i o particularly the iora ah you have ah we actually have an iora IRA meeting next month in Sri Lanka I'll be going for that uh I think uh you know you know we we've even tabled an indo-pacific oceans initiative in the East Asia Summit where we look at non-security aspects of protecting the ocean space uh you know today for us the the challenge is uh there are new opportunities there are new combinations and how do you do that without losing focus of what you have so it's a kind of it's a it's a bird in the bush and the burden had but you you know you you want to keep both of them and part of the challenge is also to convince keep the older Partners convinced that you know your interest in what you've been doing for some time remains the shark saarc is an exception there it's currently dormant because one of its members who will remain unnamed believes that they can practice terrorism uh at no cost so uh so that's that's an exception but otherwise we've been pretty much uh active and and really even the the latest we we look at latest initiative we're looking at is this Middle East Corridor uh you know which has India at one end and Europe and the other so it has for the moment Saudi Arabia and the UAE but it is on you know it's got the us as well as a kind of a guarantor partner if you would and it it really has a lot of possibilities because uh you know given if if we can find a more seamless effective competitive Logistics between India and Europe at think it will have enormous consequence for the global economy I have a follow-up question from someone else on the same sort of General role a question how do you see India's role changing in the Middle East and I would add I think many Americans May understand that there's a close India Middle Eastern relationship on uh energy but also Israel is a primary defense partner with Israel with India and then we have millions of Indians who work in the Gulf countries so the relations nine million yeah the relationship is really quite close right uh how do you see India's role developing in the Middle East uh well I I mean you Walter touched on the energy side you've touched on the uh the fact that you have 9 million expats in the Gulf there's also the proximity the the the historical connections out there but we have to understand today that uh as India becomes among a larger consumer a bigger economy our salience in Gulf in the Middle East countries calculations especially the gulf economies is that much higher for many countries you know we are I think we are the largest trade partner of the UAE and we would be among probably the top three of the Saudis so and it isn't just the volume of trade you know uh we discovered during Kobe they discovered during covet that the gulf is actually dependent on The Daily food consumption for what comes out of India so the economies have really got very very deeply meshed and today the gulf itself is in transition you know if you if you talk to the leadership in golf they are talking Renewables they are talking green hydrogen and when they and a lot of them are very enthusiastic in terms of digital digital progress so we are finding new areas of Interest with them and our I mean if you look at Indian businesses we are we are today far more entrenched in the Middle East than we've been for a long time yeah that's right um we have a final question and then we'll bring this part of the program to to a close which is um again without mentioning any name somebody's asked as we speak today the situation in India's Western neighborhood is deteriorating at a fast pace there could be a situation where a country could collapse or see unrest how is India preparing or for such an unknown event or how could it prepare in an unnamed country in an unnamed country to the west of India you know that there's some that we have a few countries there's there's more than one option having having problems of their own uh you know look uh today there are there are countries in different parts of the world in crises of different kinds and we have a few proximate to us we we saw Sri Lanka who which really went through a very very uh I mean almost an economic meltdown last year and we had to step forward because and you know they they were engaged in a negotiation with the world with the fund and their needs were so immediate and so serious that we actually did the largest bilateral lending that we've ever done which we give them almost a package of four billion dollars as a as a way of stabilizing economy the the unnamed country to our West which we are talking about they but they have a much you know their problems are much more long-term they're much more uh deeper historically in terms of uh you know what happens when distortions have been introduced into the the natural progress of an economy that if you have let us say excessive expenditure uh on on the military or if your your borrowing has not been prudent or if you have infrastructure which doesn't pay its way I think there are a lot of factors there in multiple chickens are coming home to

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Length: 49min 54sec (2994 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 29 2023