IN CONVERSATION - J. R. D. TATA

well mr. data welcome to conversations it's a convention almost a cliche for a host to introduce his guests as one who needs no introduction in your case this is something that's quite literally true have you felt that a liability to need no introduction I'm very happy please don't introduce I don't think there's any need for this conversation at all but anyway I agreed to and I'm doing it and because I would mad or I've appreciated the two conversations I've seen I thought at least this fellow is is fairly kind to his victims and makes things easy so have you felt inhibited about the fact that you're easily recognized that you're a well-known personality does that intrude upon your life yes but only in Bombay I'm not known anywhere else really it is not visibly or not by by being seen in Bombay yes but you get used to it and what can one do the main theme most of the people who recognize you and come to you or or address you without knowing you mean well friends they mean to be friendly sometime it goes to rather ridiculous extent it's quite often for me in Bombay in the car another cars but by the side and suddenly hand comes out in service tatata Mishima shake hand with United of course and then I talk to them well whomever I can know so it doesn't include in a in a in an objectionable way if people think more of me than they should or any justification for then it's it's their fault and they are wasting their time what do you think of yourself how do you evaluate yourself I certainly estimate myself at them on a much lower level than seems to be extended to me I don't think that I quite deserved the leave friendship the not the friendship of the wrong worthy the February's the regard that I get with after all all that I've done in my life except perhaps in creating Air India from scratch from a little male airline I haven't done personally anything of any I've never created anything entirely new it happens that I inherited the situation I got into tates 20 in nineteen twenty twenty six and on the death of my father and thereafter from then on to now and to now main I had all the way there was already good team doctors and when at a rather young age for being the head of a group namely in 1938 and you were what every four-year-old where and you were appointed by people who were your seniors was a senior well because yes I would I was made a director by sidorovich chairman and and they when went when Sir when did the man who succeeded so daughter of nameless so now release a toddler died the director the two appointed chairman and so they appointed me I thought somewhat prematurely and I described it as a piece of mental aberration but it seems to have lasted so so I used that only to explain in answer to your question that starting with something that existed they would led by a team a good team of people experienced and capable it came to which I only as added in the in the course of years choosing the best people I could find to join us though that didn't grow from the from within so therefore it was a question of keeping things going and growing only a few things were added when one of course was Air India that was the one thing I may I may feel that I had I was wholly responsible for was it a wrenching anguishing experience for you to relinquish control there India yes of course but of course but at the same time you mean much later new you're talking nice we are going from that that's right events are events are to 19 February 1978 when mr. Marathi they see this I fired me he didn't inform me for for about ten or twelve days later and I got a letter thanking me for my services to ammunition but I learnt it from the man whom we appointed as my successor how does it feel to be fired well look maybe I can't see the house I think the answer is cannot be a sensible one because I had never been fired before so if you mean how does it feel to be fired for the first time on never having an experience well it was not unexpected mr. Murali this I was the primary Seraph India is a man with whom I'd had a whole life almost all of love/hate we were friends and the same time the man was quite impossible to deal with I think everybody who knew him so it didn't surprise me and and I thought that something all things must end sooner sooner or later the way it was done was not very pleasant to me have you done a lot of firing in Indian in your time as chairman of Tata Sons I think my leadership which again colleague that in Tatas or in business therefore has been one of always thinking of career as a team if one didn't agree there was a I took part in firings but not not in any way that involves me very deeply it must be deeply because I had to approve but generally I avoided that there are other ways of dealing with situations and and filing the man so I can say on the whole rarely not a very pleasant thing to do if you have to the Tata Sons and the Tata group of companies have evolved the reputation for excellence and you've mentioned that how you had been the leader of a team what are the qualities of a good leader but one of the things you must be I would imagine he must be his leadership might be respected by the team I as I'm I've lasted so long I must assume that I'm how my leadership has been respected and generally approved second point I want to make is that I believe where there are team I believe in working on it on the basis of a consensus obviously when human being an intelligent human being and well who are themselves in their own field leaders of those of those in those fields and of the companies that are part of the group but are separately and independently managed we do have differences of opinion with the chairman of the group it could be and there should be but generally unless it's something that M is a matter of principle I always found that it's that one can work on the consensus either convince them and if it's not something very serious and I can't convince them and they are very very sure of themselves I let them I accept their view they never it's never done like saying it been in a battle in the war it's it's a so it can I find that working on the consensus is a good way of leading a team and it makes it makes it makes things easier there are always problems we have full of problems in business somewhat less now than we have been for many years when under the pressures of of alleged socialism but we always there always problems and difficulties and sometimes also losses losses also of office not only financial loss but the loss of hate a purpose but if one is prepared to look look at things in a in a I don't know how to say it in a human way understanding that most of the decisions of others even if they are adverse decisions they are done in their belief that is the right thing to do now whether mr. Murata this I thought it was the right must have thought that was the right thing to do to fire me that's a that is maybe an exception to you in some senses feel vindicated that globally it's it's almost as if socialism is on the retreat and an capitalists free enterprise of the best of the system of incentive is triumphing in a sense I think one can I believe that that thought does in most of their companies are following socialistic principle anybody who visits Jamshedpur for instance Tata Steel sees how the thing is run for whose benefit from right from the mr. Joshi Johnson she thought there was a socialist he must have been because otherwise he wouldn't at that time think in terms of what was far far from what was thought of him in other countries in regard to labor relations human relations a man who created he and his successors and we created made decisions between management and labor that had that were not adopted even in the advanced countries of the world for years it was status who introduced the first eight are they the first leave with pay the first a number of firsts now this this could only be conceived and accepted if starting will come since it Tata there was the to me that was socialism in some ways it has turned out it may be it may turn out to paternalism as people think it's paternalism but anybody who goes to JumpShip poor and studied the situation who thinks it's paternalism ought to have his head examined but that may well be sort of the exception to capitalism because capitalism has seen its aberrations too but they were aberrations they were the wrong kind of capitalism it was it was a way of life totally totally free of any social feeling of social responsibilities in some cases they where you started your career when when India lacked those very freedoms did you feel the impulse to participate actively in India's freedom struggle would I even was cupid enough at one stage to think that maybe I should give up the idea of becoming a businessman or an industry leader and joined the Congress party I was immensely impressed by jawoll all was a great love in admonitions for the man but I soon realized I didn't I didn't go too far in that thought because I've been seen having attended one or two meetings and having seen some people in action I realized that all that would mean is to get myself arrested go to jail where I couldn't I didn't think I could do very much for the country or for the party but the main reason I didn't apart from that was to feel it was the fact that I'm almost in a political or a political and never know how to pronounce the word animal I cannot I cannot I I don't I don't understand I dislike and I don't I don't react except adversely to almost all politics pure politics there's been so much of it that I blessed the fact that I never decided to be both a businessman and I knew also that if I was I'd have to leave industry and develop and and devote myself to the other to the political side what excited you about being a business person or an industrialist and in a leader of industry didn't excite me but it the only thing that excited me is the opportunities to create that's something you see in you and you've factory created a new a new plant being built seeing employing you new work being done and of course because I believed thoroughly and that India must industrialized if it's got to find employment apart from from from the agricultural opportunities which I knew where they were there so therefore the excitement was in in seeing things done were you ever excited by the creation of wealth no and that is something I've never quite understood I've never I've never haven't acquired wealth myself my father died fairly heavily in debt really large family and his habits of traveling between India and Europe were rather expensive and and so I didn't start with there with any wealth exception the right of having some shares in in Tata Sons but to be I've missed I miss wealth in the sense that I think that if I had in real wealth not not the few lakhs of rupees that I might I would be I be able to do more not for myself but even for even for and particularly for others but that hasn't worried me and and I mean I'm glad that I have no that I bet that's one of the reasons why I'm well considered the people perhaps have discovered that really all it's only the foreigners who seem to refer to me as the richest man in India you mentioned the aspect that you were a political but is it practically possible for someone in business to be divorced from the political process particularly in India where there is so many decisions are political decision is heavily influenced no yeah you're quite right but one can still when I meant that I was a political is in the the operations of politics I was a friend and a great admirer of Jai Prakash Narayan I was a friend in it murder national Jawara Nehru but even though I think both of them went wrong I made mistakes and Joe allowed particularly in in being the man who introduced and kept in India for so long even after his death this socialism to wish I wish I wish I considered the wrong types of socialism bureaucratese Amit cetera but I don't I think I can you can still be apolitical in regard to the way in which politics are operate and and and also and oneself being prepared to participate in those operations have you felt the imperative to influence the political process and the sense of persuading governments to your point of view lobbying no I never lob yes I I don't call it I've never done any lobbying but I've been an outspoken if critic if not sometimes critic but propose a proposal of policies that should be done and are not done and not been done for instance nationalization of industries no wait is done for whose benefit has it improved them will it will it lead to more wealth for the country will they be better managed all those those those consideration made me opposed to nationalization of industries just blinding nationalization of industries though quite accepting the fact that some industries or some activity it must be done by the state but I forget what the question was is that have you felt the imperative to influence the political process I felt more and more concerned with the fact that we in India had adopted the British parliamentary system I was convinced that it wouldn't work in India or it would result in the kind of way that he did at the end of the day are you are you despairing of where the political process is in India might be leading us no you know I'm perhaps only because I'm well I'm a I'm a pessimist in the long term but what's going to happen tomorrow or at the elections or whatever happened but I mean I'm in long term of optimist because I know I know I understand or I've learned to understand what is the people that are the Indians even the even the most the most primitive of them the the basic soundness of these people will be the tribals over the Harry Jones and therefore and India has has overcome so many so in over the centuries so many reverses so many difficulties conquests by outside and all that then I can't believe her I refuse to believe that they would allow the country to be to be got to a stage that some of the countries in the world have been in our could you even begin to define what this this quality was that that makes India survive despite its politicians perhaps or some industrial it's very difficult most good this is a question like most questions are not simple to answer and I don't have also the education to understand I'm not I mean I've not studied history except in small bits and local history say of France and so therefore I have I do not I consider myself quite incompetent but the fact that we are a conglomeration of such different kinds of people and yet amongst them they're always enough of them who are who have who seem to have inherited over the perhaps over the centuries or even the millennia a certain common sense that makes them resist to the pressures makes them revolt when they have to make them discipline when there is no other way one wouldn't think it was so now it's frequently argued that at the time of independence and then that whole period is struggling immediately after independence the leadership of Gandhi and those around him were able to draw international life people of enormous stature of a vision of Education of commitment of integrity which isn't happening at the present time just leadership with the rock is not enough devoted leadership if one has to if one has to be a leader in such a difficult environment is the Indian one such a mixed one there must be total devotion to the deed sometimes sure David just devotion is not enough Jaya Prakash whom I mentioned was a case in point he said he was a totally motivated totally devoted man of high intelligence who couldn't make up his mind for instance Oh was so good so good a human being that he was prepared always to consider the views of others including his opponents beyond the needs of it he could have been I think he could have been a great leader after Joe Allah of course and greatly the kind of leader we needed and got at the time was of Allah by I often say to myself think suppose that vallabha had been the young man and there who had been the older man and wala by had would have been obviously would have become the Prime Minister of India certainly in the economic plan there would have been a total totally different situation than the one that exists today he frequently disagreed with Pandit Nehru when you when you articulate it or shared those disagreements what was his response I tried he liked me I loved him and made him but when you on this kind of thing economics which of wishing you very little I in my opinion and certainly have and certainly on on socialism and how socialism could be established without without the loss of loss of economic freedom for the majority of the people anyway the it would be careful what I say repeat your your question when you spoke to jihad Allah my ruin and is articulated your disagreements as economic policies what was this react was very simple I tell you what his reaction was that or that mentioned somewhere and go and see it sometime he'd invite me even to have a meal in when it to see the giant panda that he had you know and then I would try to do to bring the conversation to economics nationalized nationalization bureaucracy he was not only not interested but he wasn't willing even to talk and yet edia they invented a little trick was that when I started free set where they were near each other and there was a window not too far the moment I began some reddit he'd turn round and look out of the window and I I got the I got the message in the case of mrs. Gandhi it was a slightly different way of doing it when she began to lose interest in what you were saying namely arguing against something she was doing she would begin to pick up some of the letters or Android and start opening envelopes and pulling out practically hinting that look and with other things to do so I take the message cities has much to do with with with Mahatma Gandhi know very little I go I saw him and I saw him a number of time kübra I called on him maybe personally three times in my life so no what was that interaction like was it Oh wonderful the man was it immediately smile at you and talk to you and even crack a joke also the feeling of a wonderful feeling in fact it makes me think that if only we would learn to smile at each other more often and treat the other as a friend even when you have no no reason to be friends but you have no reason not to be friend I think we'd be better off and I find that because we were asking whether intrusion in my private life of people coming up may be the reason that I am responsible for the fact that I'm inclined instinctively to like people how to you know if somebody comes to me unlike most parts of the world and particularly in the urban world in the big cities of the world if you come up to it to somebody on the street man or woman and you've only got to ask them the time the first reaction is one as a one that you can feel is saying what does he want you want something from you he's attacking me and I find that funny enough which I can digress and but I find that abroad in here you look at people and you look at and when you look at them you smile and they respond at once there's an extraordinary capacity for response that one never exploits in the street you're driving most people when they take to driving and are not professional drivers become monsters at the wheel and then become aggressive and hostile now you drive and somebody's other in the way or not you smile at him and let him go you get such a surprised and delighted and friendly look back it requite explode me well that reminds me of the incident when you would drive when you were sort of piloting a plane and at Paris Airport without any brakes yeah that couldn't have but she would smile what happened oh what happened I crashed into into the windows Iceland and then what we 1930 in a little plane the one I had flown the one I had flown from India to England for the Agha Khan prize which I hadn't got and there was nothing I could do because there was no way there was no brake to apply and I built it myself I could have had tried to jump out and hold the plane in very light and instead of that the man they the French hair hair line that had started dissensions and that gave me a blast on the taunted tail I just went round and round and crashed into this poor Agassi and broke some cables of it and they were furious when I was I could well understand how could I be angry with them I had and the passengers were waiting to to embark so they however they they were British and reasonable they shot me twenty-five pounds you were to fly again in 1982 to repeat the flight from Karachi to Bombay to you still fly does it excite you it would but a I'm Noddin we have no airplane to fly the only aeroplane taught us I've added jump ship oh and I don't live in Junction PO but I until recently when going to jump ship or used to fly from Calcutta to jump ship or fly in the air line to Calcutta and then and so I used to and back again then the other way on those occasion are used with it with the professional pilot by my side I used to enjoy flying the plane just between Calcutta in Jamshedpur but I think that at the age of over 80 is the time to forget that kind of thing and I wish out if I were younger and if I had an airplane I would yes it has been after all the greatest joy of my life is his flying one of your many current concerns passions almost is your commitment to family planning controlling India's population it's it's something that seems to have drifted away from the headlines drifted away from apparently from the political agenda do you think that it is in fact feasible in the context of liberal democracies a capitalist system to impose the kind of controls and disciplines the imperatives that might help us bring about to the level of population control that we need or is your argument the economic one that that as believed in practice in many developed countries that economic development will inevitably lead to a lowering of population growth rates what is the strategy that you recommend or urge both I think ultimately what you say is quite right as the standard of living of the people increasing they want their children educated etc it'll be here it'll happen here but too light can never be too late because India will still survive but it'll take too long and therefore one must find some ways of accelerating the process and that can be done in two ways a negative way as well as a positive way much of the difficulty in India is this obsession that the people of India have but particularly in the rural areas obsession to have boys you're an a a political figure this is an election year what would be your sort of what would be the political agenda that you would urge the political parties what are your what have the whatever national priorities apart from yeah but national authorities are not necessary the priorities of the political parties the political parties want to oust Rajiv Gandhi and the Congress that's all and take their place they did it once they made a mess of it then it may happen again I doubt it but it may happen again if they succeed in ousting the Congress which I am as I say then a political animal I don't I'm not the judge but if it does then I think the same thing will happen so therefore I can't I can just urge I know what I won't want any government in part to do what all the things that we all know that you know continue to of course concentrate on on agriculture concentrate on employment so the employment is what is needed in this country concentrate on things like population the population problem which really little as being done in spite of all the money that is being spent but as a leader of Industry a popular perception amongst many Indians many of us is is that industry is responsible in its nexus with politicians with with the perpetuation the creation of black money the exploitation of labor the supplying of poor quality goods of not responding sufficiently to foreign competition in terms of the initiatives of opening up the economy of the government what would you urge your your colleagues in industry and do you in fact see this this nexus between industry making payoffs political parties to get the policies change to its advantage there's a whole universal look I have no I'm not a leader I have no colleague in industry generally only in my own group that I can influence or help or advice but first of all there is a change I think that from it from a technological point of view management point of view Indian industry and that is big industry today is a very different animal to what it was when I first became a director of Tatas there is a a there is a a quality consciousness that didn't exist in the old days you must we mustn't forget that it's not so long ago perhaps a hundred years ago when nobody would touch a Japanese product now the elderly they are the leaders perhaps in most products largely on the basis of quality so first of all the there is a big shape then labor what are you talking about with the dominance of the unions backed by the politicians there is no opportunity to exploit labor in fact I believe that probably the only labor that is being really exploited in our country is those are those who are employed by small sector small sector industry which is greatly encouraged by by government rightly because I want the small sector to become big sector that's I don't want a few big groups and with it with that power of the unions as I say back by the house supported by the or not opposed by the politicians there is no chance of exploitation in fact it is the other way today you cannot modernize you cannot make good products cheap or cheaper than they would be otherwise except with modern equipment and modern processes the union do not want any change model yes modernization they will accept the days are gone where they they wouldn't allow even a typewriter but they still oppose computers all the full exploitation of computers but you can't reduce you can only modernize and you can only cheapen the cost by using modern processes which need less and less and less labor but how do you introduce a new process if you're not allowed to retrench open by retrench I mean really pay off a very large amount that with that industry would be prepared to to pay any is prepared to pay but the union's don't don't accept it at all black money look when I was young and shine business there was no black money I never heard of black money there was no corruption because whom where were you to corrupt when you did not have a when you you did not have a system of government control where you had to get a permit for everything I'm surprised you didn't have to get a gun permit to change the position of the opposed to shake the chairs in this room this is the tata hotel well maybe if it had been if it had been in government hotel you probably wouldn't have been allowed to do that without consulting a joint secretary somewhere in delhi but anyway therefore then also in those early days taxes well either non-existence or very low you may not know that say take 90 years ago hundred years ago the salary of the highest government official who in those days would be other high court judge or the secretary of the government they were the highest and I think the black the black money will always be there so long as the taxes are high and the controls are high I look I often have to go abroad but every time I go abroad although I'm supposed to be a leader do I am NOT a leader do I have industry if I want to have a little cash money to spend in London or in New York for my hotel bills if somebody else doesn't pay for the hotel for buying anything I've got to go to the Reserve Bank and they will give me as lit as they do it well did well they are kind there there they are reasonable but still you've got to go to a bureaucrat and see may I have a little money then when I come back if there's any left any traveler's check I think you were to end it over all this kind of rules and regulations are will be considered just not acceptable anywhere else but we have to accept at least so long as there are good intentions and so long as administration is better so long as business is getting better so long as the monsoon is better I think we've got to we've got to live with what there is and cooperate now what is it that makes you happy excites you exhilarates you now now that you're not flying you're not driving fast cars nothing I haven't got I have none of these the pursuit of happiness is one that would have to be defined in detail first but the pursuit of happiness in my case doesn't involve first of all even if I wanted to like other people might want travel abroad more spend money live exceptionally well by carbons I'm in Europe if I'd want to set all these all these ideas of totally gone so I do the best of what there is available and and I'm happy that I'm happy that on the whole I tell you this is important that one should feel that those who've dealt with and even now practically the public or somewhat have wanted in a man with who suffers an aberration what would you call a column a in a berated man yes like like you think well of me something that at least you brings happiness that if other people think that you brought happiness to others and that you've been useful and continue to be useful that's a form of happiness it's and I think it's worth it's worth cultivating so I have no intention of breaking rules you you

Channel: Rajiv Mehrotra

Views: 758,938

Rating: 4.9373999 out of 5

Keywords: J. R. D. Tata (Organization Founder), Jehangir Ratanji Dadabhoy, Indian, aviator, business tycoon, Chairman, pilot

Id: 68otfg601HI

Length: 43min 46sec (2626 seconds)

Published: Wed May 06 2015