"I'm Getting Sick to Death of This" - Alex vs Dinesh on Amalekite Slaughter

now go attack the amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them I'm told sometimes that this is actually an exercise in hyperbole God didn't mean everyone it continues do not spare them put to death men and women children and infants cattle and sheep camels and donkeys and if you think that this is hyperbole consider what happens when Saul does uh conduct the destruction of the amalekites as ordered and decides to leave alive the king as well as some of the best of the livestock he leaves them alive for this small of mercy God responds by saying to the prophet Samuel I regret that I have made Saul King because he's turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions so not even the animals can escape this genocide so I'd like to ask Ines I suppose directly which is it is this a morally corrupt series of events or do I have to dispel with my moral intuition that genocide including of innocent children is a bad thing let's talk about the moral sense since you raised it and we'll just talk about sure we got time for Q&A but look I can I can I can reread the text if if you like um the amalekites well well let's not talk about the amalekites in part because here's a problem for most Christians the Old Testament is different than the new and is seen through the light of the new so I'm not if you want if you want to go to you know Dennis Prager who has written about this from a Jewish perspective has written about the Deuteronomy the book of Kings the amalekites we can what he considers to be the justifiable Massacre of the Canaanites I don't really want to go there because I know why you don't want to go there well the reason I don't want to go there the Old Testament is Old Testament is is full of horrific massacres that that is hold on massacres which are ordained massacres which appear to be ordained by Yahweh directly agreed and why why you saying Yahweh instead of God why are you why you trying to trying to distance yourself from the god of the Old Testament well I'm not trying to distance myself I'm simply trying to say that any reader so why is that the first time you've used the the word Yahweh in this I'll tell you why because there is a there is a movement within the Bible itself that that you are completely missing um do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them for truly I tell you until Heaven and Earth disappear not the smallest letter not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches accordingly will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven Jesus said that in The Sermon on the Mount referring to his fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy and and law referring to his fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy Old Testament law and and what I'm what I'm referring to here is an Old Testament law which you're now trying to distance yourself from and say that I'm saying that's not what Jesus thought I'm saying you're missing the I'm saying you're missing the developmental uh track of the Bible that is obvious to any intelligent reader let me give let me give you one example of what I'm talking about tell the amalekites tell tell me tell me what the development it's not about the amalekites it's about the way that the whole story of the Bible changes in tone and mood and message I mean for example help me out here like just tell me where any any way you like tell me where this fits into that trajectory I'll tell you we have just a couple minutes guys so let's wrap it up before the Q&A tell me the underlying the underlying message of the Old Testament is an i for an eye the amalekites are the enemies of the Israelites the Israelites will crush them with the same Venom that the am alites would have crushed the Israelites that's called an eye for an eyeing on the children the infants the children the castle the Sheep the camels the donkeys yeah that Dennis Prager says yes but but my point is different you will not find that Spirit at all in the New Testament in fact in the New Testament you've got a spirit of forgiveness so what I'm getting at is to pretend like you don't have this the I mean Christianity is based is named after Christ it's based on Christ as a fulfillment of the Old Testament but what does fulfillment mean it actually means Transcendence in in Abraham's Time Blood sacrifices are normal when Christ comes as a sacrifice Christ is the Lamb the point is those blood sacrifices aren't necessary anymore that's the Christian reading and and you keep filibustering me because you know that the Bible is showing a a movement in in a direction and to miss the movement is to miss the Bible let's look at one there's nothing quick about what you're doing D there's nothing quick about what you're doing I need to be allowed to respond to what you're saying and I getting sick when cross examining me on the justice of of smiting the amalekites honestly I don't see any justice in it but I do agree that that was the eye for an eye ethic of the Old Testament that is repudiated and transformed and transfigured in the new I can I can I I get I I've had this conversation so many times most recently with William Lan Craig at least least he had the ghoul to to just tell me that yes that is that was a moral thing forgot to do I get sick to death of people hand waving away this genocide by some vague reference to the fact that Jesus came along to do something which somehow kind of undo the immorality of it like this is not an eye for an eye this is a genocide of combatant men innocent women and children and animals Saul is punished by God for not killing all of the animals like that that is that is that is actually a ludicrous Mis reading of what happen me let me can I uh let me just make let me just make a point I I have to make this point I've got to read the the text from Joshua as well okay and then we'll check in with the audience because we're we're probably I think the audience is going to agree that we want this to keep going instead of going to Q&A but we'll check in just after Alex's Point here I think it's important look read these texts for yourself there is there is no way that I'm misreading this text we know that this is what's happening in in the slaughter of I AI That's that's a type of Canaanite in Joshua we're told that when Israel had finished killing all of the men in I in the fields and in the wilderness where they they had chased them and when every one of them had been put to the sword the Israelites returned to I and killed those who were in it that is to say that we're told that this is just because the promised land was inhabited and God's God you know he's allowed to do this so because the Israelites want that land they have to go and Chase out the eye so they chase them into the Wilderness they chase after them they slaughter them in the wilderness they then turn around come back into the City and kill who's left who's left if the combatants have run away the women and the children this is is intolerable and I I cannot have it simply waved away Jes let me just for a second it can't happen it can't keep happening completely you're completely blind to the irony of what you're saying dases can we pause for just a second okay everyone who wants uh to go to Q&A right now make a loud noise everyone who wants the discussion to continue on and eat up the Q&A time cheer okay sorry guys we're going to we're going to let them roll through Q&A let's we might have some time Christianity invented the just War tradition According to which the slaughter of women and children is out of bounds prior to Christianity no one thought this everybody did it and everybody today does it everywhere in the world and we do it too the bombing of Dresden uh the bombing of Hamburg hero Rima and Nagasaki the the incineration of women and children is the normal course of War uh I just watched the World War I documentary uh in which they interview an old bomber us bomber pilot and he goes I was given a bombing mission to to hit a Target I asked the US authorities who's in the building they said 20,000 women and children and this guy kind of breaks down you can watch this on Netflix and he goes I'm like what the hell you want me to to kill 20,000 women and children he goes we're supposed to be the good guys and he goes but I I couldn't repudiate the order it was an order so I did it so what I'm getting at is is it everybody does it it is not ethical it is not but I'm simply saying Alex that you are a product of the Christian morality that repudiates it now you're standing on a Christian mountain and acting like whoa look at these Christians they taught you to talk like these people did not teach me to think like that they did these people were listening to their God who was telling them to slaughter innocent women and children the right the ancient Israelites were but the ancient Israelites are not what taught you what taught you is the the what taught you is the Thousand-Year tradition of the early Christian Church the which came a bit too late for the amalekites came a bit too late for the amalekites to be sure were the Israelite armies not instructed by the god that you believe in they were instructed by God and they were instructed to do things which you would now consider to be immoral yes absolutely so God has God has God has commanded them to do something which you now consider to be immoral whether or not you to be immoral because the later developments of Christian ethics God himself has told us that we must abandon our intuition that the that the slaughter of women and children and by the way when it's unnecessary in those instances to slaughter them well well I I don't I don't view it that way this is how I view it Christ um let's put it this way even in the ancient world divine revelation comes into a primitive barbaric World which is full of a lot of really bad guys um and God says keep going no God God God does not God does not say keep going but what God does is is and and and again this is called you know trying to get the point of what is happening there's slavery in this world in the ancient world and it is true the Bible doesn't come in and go we denounce slavery we denounce the killing of women and children it doesn't do that oppos it actually immerses itself into an existing admittedly barbaric culture and what's actually going on there with the amalekites the Canaanites and so on if you just read the Old Testament it tells you it has to do with the displacement of polytheism with monotheism that's fine hold on hold on that justifies the murder of of children women do I didn't say it does say I'm saying the way it happens historically is God takes aside the the single monotheistic God who by the way in the Old Testament does not act like a monotheistic God he acts like a tribal God right he acts like the god of only the Israelites list isra's enemies listen to what you just said the god that you believe in is acting like a tribal war god the god of the yes the the the the god that is depicted in the Old Testament is he he goes I'm picking the Jews I'm choosing you

Channel: Alex O'Connor

Views: 247,987

Keywords: Alex O'Connor, cosmic, skeptic, cosmicskeptic, atheism, within reason, podcast, within reason podcast, religion, debate, Alex J O'Connor

Id: 96BFlNajMDc

Length: 10min 53sec (653 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 13 2024