Ian Hislop urges investigation into Michael Gove and Rupert Murdoch

order order who are an incorrigible delinquents at times maybe yourself man could I ask each of our witnesses to identify themselves for record um army and Islam I'm the editor of private eye and this is Richard Brooks who is a senior journalist on the magazine who wrote the revolving door special and has made this traffic between public and private sectors his speciality and I will probably defer to him frequently very good so what should a purpose primary functionality I'm Richard well right now it should probably be you know clearing out the office and putting up the historic bit closer so it's not really serving a useful person very active herb as it's constituted and with the rules its operating under when you look at some of the appointments that get through and you can only conclude that any any system that allow us to get through is serving no useful purpose about whether that's because of the rules is operating under all the way it applies as waters it's another series of questions but the option is that when when we find cases for example like Descartes that who was the current Secretariat for tax at HMRC taking a job with Deloitte after he had routinely dealt with that firm to agree major taxes and with returning in-network 48 separate occasions in the previous five years agreeing big tax bills including Vodafone where Deloitte relieve would be in the room because leave the company's auditor whether it was that kind of close relationship and he can then get a job with Deloitte approved within a few months of being office then that approval system justice isn't working come and stop what your fear is about that women not appointment wealth and mr. heartland and templated Cruikshank was chairman of Deloitte work together as I say on dozens of tax bills now they clearly we no idea what concepts went on between around the margins of those meetings all those 48 meetings both they would appear to be nor there's very strong suspicion but there could have been some expectation of the Jordan when he retired and that must have thought of influence family behave towards this person who's on the other side of the desk and with whom he he was strictly speaking as the tax affairs representative in opposition must be very clear - clear asking about what you thought you've done you people can I just make a general request that were certain Spector by making implications but individuals who are protected by parliamentary privilege yes and you are addressing people's entices certain what we do as I appreciate how you've had the professor see somewhere hey doctor having you in here is like messing away with dog off the lead well that's very flattering and given that people I'm not going to have the opportunity to respond in equal measure if there's something want to tell us in private please do but of course there's nothing controversial about the tool package that was finally firmly we suggest besides daily disgraceful for mr. Hartman to take a job with Deloitte and with HSBC I think is is pretty I'm telling a speculation firm and we produced a report of 2012 would you things changed since 2012 and we're going to Richard nothing's changed um and we produced this Sam pamphlet which he wrote called revolving doors and it actually analyzed the number of appointments which Acoma has decided but not suitable and that total is naught out of 700 Possible's they've turned no one down so no job which anyone has taken no Minister no civil servant is in any way a conflict of interest or unsuitable none just none so the system is obviously working absolutely brilliantly and October has no reason to take any action at any point and return I'm tutorials number three how effective do you think kilgrave's increasing the boundary between public and private sector Riley needs effective agility and it's an advisory body it requires people to run disclose information about themselves which they often don't do and it has no sanctions I can't see that it wouldn't could could it not be missed those things which we'll get through decide on balance they might be better not to ask at over their views and note as we go to some of the things that did get through and they're shocking and pages and pages of them defense industry outsourcing banking I mean it is pretty disgraceful don't think there are many mandarins sitting there thinking oh I won't take that job because of what the Cobra got say to me or a very even apply to it that's it's simply not factly it's now routine your question was how is it foe but police in the boundary between the public and private sector well it's fun of is not it's sort of melting away any boundaries that existed and so that we now have we've got to the stage where the revolving door is not so accepted that there is no real distinction you now have very senior people responsible for very important areas of Public Policy who who just see their public role is part one part of us of the portfolio Creek if you would all the senior mandarins in Treasury for example we've written about a fusion recently jobs to Joel Kinnaman room at Harrison's in it McPherson there's Jeremy Hayward the cabinet safety all these movies all these people are combining careers play a major role in determining economic policy the regulation of parents and these fairly important things with working in banks that say how they see their life and and I think that is that's the point that we've got to I think that's sort of the endgame in this she told that all system you talk about the boundaries and I think what Richard leads a lot we believe is that the boundary between purchaser and provider the boundary between the regulator the regulated and essentially that the boundary between the gamekeeper and the poacher has been abolished so you look at the men you've no idea which is which moving on mr. Cullen - directly to the revolving dollars is where oiled and spinning and Ted will read that because don't occupancy fatalism doing it and to stop alien then people still remove from the public the private sector so we are really interested with a Polish from whatever bullish and will indicate again I'm Richard said bun and they just give up I mean your entities to give them some regulatory powers and to make it not advanced rivet to make these things legally binding and again I know we've heard the previous evidence and as usual any regulation is very complex and overly costly and therefore it can't be done what's the excuse that all regulation about thing ever it is worth doing I'm not sure it is that complex I mean we're not fantastically convoluted in our argument most of it is common sense and if you look at the jobs which are most shocking that people are taken I don't think it takes a huge amount of investigation money or for the brainpower to guess that that isn't a very good idea and have the person being forced that is rich suggesting beforehand to publicly say I would be offered a job by this giant missile company I was the general in charge of buying the missile does anyone have any objections then people might put in some objections and then he wouldn't take the job that seems me a perfectly reasonable procedure you publicly say this is what I'm going to do this was the involvement I had and then anybody can object to Aqaba and inaccurate and say yes No Deal off without it just pop the phone lines the people of make up ACTA boxes of all to help fill today to the office in time particular drugs illegal well again people the sale is very very difficult to get people to sit on committees many only ask the same group people absolute I mean active including through not and known former teachers possibly some policemen I mean if you desperate Jonas yes I've got few revolving doors declare the swimmers let signal from the move from public spaces the I mean are dancing rich at all or I would at any stage say no one can have a career but I I just don't believe when you see these moves that anyone says will you know you're compromising their freedom to move most of the people we write but already have knighthoods Richard's point is that most of these people are right at the end of the Civil Service careers there in the during the golden years anyway and they have a look ahead and see a nice autumn of very very well paid employment and private sector we don't penalize the forty year olds who need other careers is that right yeah then there are two categories you know there are the people who want to make legitimate career change or myself there's some sort of interest in their first four 40s and then there are those who have epic really got the knighthood that were the top very high file since our civil service part of salaries their pensions and they got pretty much everything and yet they say this all this extra carrot of their hundred grand a year only taking and so on which which is becoming interesting I think much more trades if you look at the way that for example non-executive director fees have gone up they double D a decade or so the same goes in from consultancy favorites so the incentives have become braiser at the same time is any shame attention to move and English completely those of those that those are the real consent further further down the pecking order where you have more junior officials watching other officials who want to change forever legitimate reasons you know no one wants to sit in the same job for 30 years and those people have to I think you're quite different conditions you you you say yes you can move but you can still have strict conditions you can't for example if you're special is amiss in contracting project management that photo here you can take a project management of summer up but not connected to the companies that you've been dealing with the office so you perhaps apply what is more a sort of standard condition now to just assuming people whereas for the more senior people I don't see why there is simply isn't a presumption that you can't simply can't take notes in areas connected to you your public sector crew we don't show them um just just be careful that it surely this should all happen much earlier in the process I mean if you're going to be a politician like we all will sit around this table and if you are going to be offered ministerial office surely at that stage there should be something that is put into the rules for a ministerial code that tells you that at the end of this process um anything that you want to do that is outside the political arena um has to pass test as I said before yeah we used to be called a moral compass but I think it is a moral compass but I mean in this day and age we like it all written down and spells out for us because we have to be told with our compasses in some cases and don't you think that that should happen that once you get to a senior level in civil servant even made very clear to you there's at the end and there are going to be certain things which you cannot do I mean course you can you believe number ten you write a book in me to be about your instances you would want to inhibit I'm sure in general Genisys but do you think it should come earlier in the process um yes but I mean you've asked specifically about the committee and if if they instituted set of rules which I don't think are impossible to say the area's you can work in those which you cannot work in then those same rules would apply to ministers I think even need officials in a bigger joining a civil service for example knowing for what that is that's what it means there's no shortage of very very high quality applicants to the Civil Service alone I don't see that would diminish the that the talent who you were getting applying for the civil service and the people would go in with our eyes wide open they would know that they're going into a public service and that's a local thing to do and you can shut a little bit said them that you don't get investigated by having a five-year career break hmm which I thought it was what's happened in in the same case of the Director General of death okay just an address or some question about moral compass if fun how can you encourage people to rely on their mole compass if there are more more moons maybe even yours which prescribe what they can do how much are we in danger for encouraging people to substitute rules which will never be adequate with their own moral judgment how do we do with it well presumably we're we're sitting here and we're talking about that it rolls in because the moral compasses are failing I like the analysis that rigid offices that this has come down from the top good pile and it is led by you know prime ministers who say one thing and then do something entirely different heights and you know this isn't a political point I'm including the ones on both sides but listen but can I just give you this quote this man says I'm going to image crony capitalism ex-ministers and ex advisors for hire helping big business find the right way to get its own way now as they determine you know this isn't a controversial you know dates are under not offending anybody or not they can come at the front is know and you're more interested in my answer is the lead comes from the top yes if the Prime Minister and the cabinet could themselves abide by what is obviously the service diploma could actually abide by what is absolutely clearly you know a set of assumptions the public would have that you don't make the set of decisions when you're in office and then go and work with the beneficiary of those decisions when you're out of office you know that's a sentence I've just put it down it's not that complex there must be a different question that accept everything you say the different question is the more you clarify how you expect things of behavior the more the code will determine what people behalf actually do and they will say well it doesn't seem can't do this so it must be allowed and they do it and we've seen time time so we've seen time and time again regulated industries regulated professions have used the absence of a particular rule to justify what they what they do yeah and then exactly the same people plead for light-touch regulation and say back off and then the entire capitalist system blows up um I don't I don't buy the argument and I don't I don't think if there are lots of rules people say well then I'll be morons anymore I originally wasn't so sense different argue against rules I'm arguing how do you encourage people to exercise their own moral judgment in at the same time as looking at words so it's sometimes a little people to say well that is a lie but it's obviously wrong and I'm not going to do it for the pay that they might even say well you didn't fees allowed within the rules over all them and I'm sort of under to do it and I've encouraged to do that's a great point so I think you don't code it you don't know your folks who don't have hard and fast rules you have principles your code has principles and they you have commissioners committees like you who can pass judgment or whether those principles have been followed so you say principle for example is that you don't take the job in an area where you've had influence in public life pretty simple children but isn't it difficult one of again I declare an interest in in hs2 limited which is putting a high-speed rail link through my constituency isn't it difficult when government itself is moving civil servants out of the department indoors is essentially a commercial operation that in itself is lobbying government for it to get its way onto phthalic doors or projects you actually got government encouraging officials to move across central commercial in perhaps its window open actually it's fairly clear what the difference between the public and private sector is because those lines are getting merged so so much that it is difficult to tell us for hours what is private and what is public when believe object like that when you have a project like that right thing yes please pay for it at the pubs of hair then the lines are not too difficult to stop but if you look at your act in their interests but if you then look at the range of consultants that are then taken on board because the project then relies on a whole load of consultants and there is a seamless ability to move between those consultants and government well that's not a good thing well I'm just on logging and I do think I think you're in when we were talking about longing before how effective do you think actors proposal and strengthening of the definition of lobbying was I'm just a perfectly and you know I think that the definition is is fine but it's not really the point we people really know what modeling is you know doesn't matter that exactly what this sentences the point is whether you can see it happening within information about meetings and so is publicly available so it's it's about visibility on it at the moment there isn't any and alongside what if this committee works on I think you need some major changes in the openness of government about who is meeting whom and what they're talking about in the previous businesses and it's an organization that so many records of meeting to say capture or discussed industrial topics and so what does that mean in today's issue actually that was probably just hitting the newsstands now we have a story about the former chief executive of you played TI defense support organization which is the big art seller Sir Richard Tony Gwynn who has become chairman and Raytheon in the UK with one of the most astounding resulting more door moves going but he incidentally didn't go through a cobra because he would judge to be the grade to known I think it's a big questions about whether there covering the jobs they need to cover but he wouldn't within a few months he was meeting some our team Donnelly who is now permanent secretary at the international trade the problem with this permanent secretary he was meeting and what will they discuss a little we know was it was a general ketchup well yeah it was that lobbying we're almost impossible to so if you asked for the vetoes and free relation actual you have no joy at all there will be mostly confidential or private information or something so we simply don't know and so wrong whether you know whether he's breach this definition of lobbying this fairly fairly long definitional Lobby isn't really a point the point is he's met them and making them so so maybe that's the thing that we should stop maybe you should save Robin we're never gonna be able to tell whether you're lobbying or not but we can tell whether you're actually sitting down and this was a lunch where they have a lunch or a meeting whatever you don't you don't do that I mean the previous um academics have said it it's very difficult to know where the lobbying works I would say do companies still pay extremely large amounts of money to these people yes my guess is then that they think lobbying works the minute they don't offer this distinguished civil servant a job on the board then you'll know the lobbying doesn't work or they're not doing it I think that's it we produced our princess committee producing port in 2012 which made a number of recommendations do you have any comment or nuts from those recommendations well I think the main recommendations I saw it was that kobish would be abolished and replaced with something much stronger and with that I think the need for that is now greater even if it was four or five years ago home this is this phenomenon has accelerated we know them from a Cobra's own route last report that the report of proportion of people going into jobs in areas they were covering in public sectors increased - and I think it's it's it's as if you curriculum is something to being lost it's as if the battles being lost as it is now in the upper echelon so why Paul unless lipsti that's just what you do you just do go through the revolving door and and so so this soon you know the whole system that's you need to start again you need to say that the code is not working which is what you said four years ago if it's still working it's working even less well when you start again with a much tougher regulator Richard more general pointless is live as it accelerates we can actually see them not only is it open to corruption and ethically undesirable but actually there's no evidence that it's effective our large project in this country better managed because we have this traffic between the public and private sector our military projects the lod wastes unbelievable amounts of money gazillions of pounds on projects that are always over-budget late fighting the wrong war much later I mean that fantastically useless the record of g4s I know you don't want me to be rude I'm here but you know for example total incompetence on any number of public and private projects where is the evidence that these people who are paid as large amount of money are contributing to the public good by this merging of the boundaries there isn't any I mean I don't be rebut hs2 but it is it up and running in no one one other point point on that I think this visit there's an assumption which really those challenge which is that somehow it's a good thing for expertise to be shared we need to get expertise in and I think there's a danger that individual institutions lose their identity and that kind of healthy tension you get between regulated and regulator and government departments that are setting policy and those are affected by the policy they're going to pay they ought to be making conflicting arguments and sorting it out between themselves whereas when you get this crossover this continuum crossover you end up with with brutally for one thing I think that's a big problem another I think is that you end up with out a lack of ambition within government departments they don't see expertise as being something for them I think if they in the expertise we get in or a company or we need expertise on contracting that will get all into that and you actually end up sort of weekly public institutions and probably the private companies themselves I think your work in a very profound way Kevin Hawkins it's some physical among them a big leader private of course and I have which is a great fireman cage more than once the comments over thank you for that sir my soup questionary simple Opa Opa beautifully you fill in your recent revolving door Private Eye podcast that pack a correctly looks a packet birth but it's forever saying look if you used us then nothing has been done yet nothing has been done switch is 2008 report on logging why do you think nothing has been done well it's it's the pledge at lack of political will of things which is probably related to the revulsion towards your reservations have been rejected by people who will have to go away and track them throughout any but I suspect when two of those take a job through the revolving door and it's essentially a political question and I believe had we've had to imagine David Cameron's comments about ending this this gravy trade or whatever it was that earn our crater may has much more recently made some promising comments on irresponsibly you know improving standards and so on and we're dumbing it sort of over to you told these people took camp and to make sure that we follow through on these things the tongue it is David David um cabinet ministers and senior civil servants are not underpaid it shouldn't be that they can just go off and take work when they use their influence and contact network I mean it's up to very black and white and that's a member of this cabinet so I mean we can only hope mrs. may you know who has announced a number of new brooms will take on board the walk the academic keep calling the public perception that this is unhealthy and um not good for the public well says he was reincarnated as a Minnesota know that I'm going below necessary change their opinion particular when I breathe you can hear there being a function of culture but also age as well because there is so many people now that come into politics that think it's a means to an end not an end in itself and for me it was the pinnacle of my career or maybe I like ambition but um I see so many people that want to get into it as a young age and think that this is the stepping stone to something which is going to open further riches but that happens in the civil service level and also a better political level and surely to change that culture this is a as a really big of identikit requires that much imagination to see a particular period of your life or a particular job you do as you are doing it and to the public good not for another stepping stone on your CV and I guess that underestimates a lot of people I know lots of people have retired whether two people who didn't join large defense contractors they went away and one of them work for a hospital not one of them are an attorney there are other things did it in life apart from doing very very large well-known companies which have acted for I mean it just seems to me very if the coming and this is going to be this is very cynical to imagine that uh no one would ever take any other career paths and wouldn't understand the you know public service is slightly different see also lying to improve the politics if you if people come in if it will know that they can't exploit that critical experience they might think well maybe I'll go do something else before politics or the exact way around instead then you may end up actually with better representation in Parliament so if you've been in public life and one of the problems we've been told about and on previous inquiry is that the lobby environment in two years is about as long as you can make them a big fat because in any normal contact employment you can't buy into people employ opportunity not to do things just because they work so how long should have lobbying ban be the subject is being a popular mallanna well I think Isis the lobby the - you're loving that may be acceptable but the bigger question is whether the job should be taken in the first place if you've prevented inappropriate jobs being taken then the lobbying ban isn't such a pretend how long should a band be on someone taking a particular job well in a case where there's a clear conflict of interest I think there's a good case for permanent ban so that if you've got a contract to a company then you can never ever go captain that's right yeah no I don't see one I don't see how that restrict people's likes so much it's just it isn't a small restriction entirely the course would do that measure if people had challenged it and said it was unreasonable well detective II it's worth testing on a unitary group so what would a court thinking but it's hard it's definitely worth testing and I've received a lot of legislators have this yes cause but I'm they particularly religious tastes like mr. Harkness and after now I'd like to see that come to the jury do you think it was fair the mag is meant to be collecting tax to go off and then work for HSBC one of the people who were in talking about in tax I mean you know I'm no uqc but I then would take much to convince the jury that this is not an appropriate job helicopters don't Leslie WC so earlier view definitely difficult to do these things I have to serve you but what the to increase its own that could improve the system I mean I have many books myself but to make the system we work I mean I've included much tougher sanctions and he you suggested to them what would you feel to say well I mean I think if you said the recommendations last time you know we're good but they know them and so you should go further to stop I think part from me are the bigger questions about methods are allowable aren't that there are also some improvements you could make with the system for the walls of the it's the police involves they are and the big one I would suggest is opening the process up because at the moment it it actually failing and investors mate equality well handful of cases where it appears that a poker is acting on unreliable information or it's summarizing the information has been given unreliably in the cleanest of artnet and mr. Harrison what a comb is said about their prior involvement with their proposed employer simply didn't match other information that was available if you looked harder mr. Harrison have had several meetings with Blackrock it had lunch with them around budget time in his daughter's books special advisor and they all all occurred the summary of food or orders approval letter said was that he hadn't dealt with the policies they were concerned with which was which simply wasn't truly in or the direct involvement um and mr. artist patience but then if you go into detail but that was even more tightened in terms of the the disparity between what happened what a Provost said it happened now you need so this this shows later the birth birth and of course is an incentive for officials not to give the full picture on their application in inform says what involvement of you have with this company so you say well I have met them but I met other similar companies - and you downplay it though that we need to be able to see what applicants are saying at the point they say it so that we and possibly their colleagues who know when they get up to and say well hang on and it that's not right well this is big conflict a program until the Bell there's a couple of making decisions on a less than full picture that what's happened that's a big reason why the system doesn't work as well that's what I believe I mean I have to say you know they have really supported that I would hope you'd like to say we go further make a strong run if people are being have to prospect the vast sums of money even when they're in office that food for something they're going to look with the doing now which make the bigger rewards later on that find a serious financial sentence on them might that not be a way of dealing very serious financial tensions in one sentence what if it affects civil services as for example worked on a contract and the curves up clearly seems to have been influenced by it by the prospect of a film with a comedy afterwards and for busy his pension is fake attention and independence in prison well I think it's easy tears betrayal estate upset if there were clear conflict that should be put in the application the regional see in that case the job shouldn't be approved if the information isn't in the form and then that's clearly the the attribute is line and that's really very serious and sanctions like that would be justified yes absolutely that kind of system you could have I think I think the one right well we have tougher rules banning certain jobs tougher rules about conflicts you declare and then if you're not honest you know some some serious semi can possibly criminal sanction just put one foot fungus and how would you measure success in monitoring the conduct of former and current holders the public office and do you have any knowledge of other jurisdictions where there are sections that actually work I don't really understand respected around the Canadian system folks but a duppy movement what one of that Canadian system does show that you can at least have those rules this is another possibility have you asked what would be success on just some job blocked I mean and again a facts and determine is right then they would immediately go to court and kindnesses breach their human rights to stop them taking a job but then that does mean the country's entirely pointless and if it's a current data stop they don't get to your jobs is worried about cortex and afterwards then I mean you can't have it but if one case went to court it might open Pandora's Box with all the previous cases for them equipped with society and it might forgive those yes electrician yeah we want to ask you about the Prime Minister's independent adviser or ministers interests mr. Feder first of all that I bring in adjusting balance to the to the Chairman's less than gracious welcome to you that I've been a beneficiary of private are they since almost your first edition and you provided a unique source of information over those years and I believe that in this instance and many others then you're doing a job the politicians have failed to do and the positions all colors and other additive holidays or self-interest a meeting in this case and we have a very dangerous situation bubbling everywhere which you're doing a great deal to expose in the way that our political system is becoming more deeply corrupt and there is penis on in my life and the the question I have to ask you is there one on the the adviser to the Prime Minister on material interests I mean I'm a few I recently covered this issue and what do you think the function is of the peasant over other than being alone grand pooh-bah because good luck sir most of it and you adjudged Sottero and by um whether they've actually taken any action yes and done I thought the previous battle right I mean it's not that difficult to spot the difference between the vexatious and blatant is politically motivated or by malice or whatever and one that's sort of very very blatant and I thought your example of mr. Fox was one such example and where that's parliamentary oversight rather than just the Prime Minister of would've allowed some investigation into mr. where it is business Carson and all that's of detail which I know we don't get into a personal level why not there were tubes on committees originally well I think the answer gets is more independence yes more teeth more independence it shouldn't be a I'm quite promising appointment we've study wide Philip Moyers resign I mean he told his committee that he fought the deal folks who'd be investigated yeah yeah isn't it a lesson there and what we I think this committee another hearing and decided that it is a successful and wasn't a fit person to do the job and takes her in a reporter yeah and but here we have the the conscience of prominent expressed by by my select committees and yourselves being ignored and by by governments who have an interest in continuing a thorough system because that mode through Avenue yeah written very eloquently I believe about the the merging of the government and private interests to the detriment of we end up with things like to be verified by the air through health reasons and a husband is like nominees from the Holden who have got it right yes in our experience um you know in the period we're talking about I think that might be more general lesson on parametric Parliament and parliamentary committees in particular maybe need to have all powers in all these questions of propriety and ethics rather than simply ever left to teach government and Prime Minister's Office there's a long history of independent and effective watch lots of showing some independence and effective has been quashed or pushed aside Elizabeth fluid was another one many years ago absolute unit so so there is this problem that as soon as someone starts their job properly they're out how do you do that well I think the answer is probably through pond again you will always have to go through the government and the Prime Minister's office as a commendeth Forgiveness Act to encourage in time to death as young and I think indeed for the other side and we on sit on politically in any way the board Brown set up this rapport uncanny reporting to his ministers to and to accept it was a genuine reform that's not is withered on binder to totally infected and it doesn't matter one thousand five years and imagine if I keep wanting everything yeah it's not in principle no something our meetings are privatization the control webtoon former Prime Minister's recently brought brandis's one whom had a lonely of the chair of these committees dance in public right one comes to Graham advocacy actually was a Scottish Puritan a belief morally but in a politician said it to behave properly and leaves this light intense environment that vision subsequently another prime minister would when a public in April public body was reporter become active he's a Rottweiler the winning war not ones I couldn't agree more I mean the developed rebuke from Villa to say my colleague Richard should take most of the credit for that and he isn't a classic example of man he was a fairly senior civil servant and he decided rather than go and work for him leading accountant or a missile company he worked for I've died to the terrible career choice and just shows that and it is possible not them to take the money but was that poacher turned gamekeeper Gehrke returning poacher and take one sort of fun don't give it to another first recorded example the dogs really have a profound one on on what happened in the in the deepening corruption of our systems here there have been things that we all see in public life and it's deteriorating we get these pious sermons from prime ministers on the dailies they're elected we can recall the one on lobbying by David Cameron a fortnight before you selected on lobbying and I mean nothing happened this is not word signal corrupt than it ever was I mean what what you're here willing to reveal unique situation on this view remote should be visit the 2012 report by over and a good starting point or how should we do to need time different setter I think it's a good starting point I think yet though you were recommending a different sector and I think that is a good starting point but I think that that better law independent set up needs to be policing better rules as well so these stricter rules on the job you can take a capper at the moment and presumably any successor body if their world would be operating under the presumption this is a good thing the revolving door those are a good thing in general it's just the exceptions that aren't I think the rules need to change so that that's reversed so actually the the presumption is that it's it's not a good thing I'm not only in exceptions would it be acceptable what's your judgement on why there hasn't been reforms we which we know staring this videos necessary to get a system but where there's some room for a little bit for the devolve end of summer examining in some way or improving it be and there is a case for her a limit on the time because there we information they get less precious value on me the way ahead but do you think the politicians have ins instituted reforms everything to one of the two suggestions I made I variety of colleges or all other self-interest well I think it's both together you know David Cameron promise performs rejected your recommendations what happens always office you know as they leave with various don't and go into very different mediums and it very clearly self-interested there is the Amazon the janitor it's just a worried that the lawyers will come in and say that any restriction on ministers or a civil servants freedom to take whatever jobs they like will end up in court with huge costs and will then become unpopular with the public popular but again I think you need to test that because I don't believe what the previous panel vote is a public perception can be changed by doing nothing I think you have to do something and I will say you were variously about lobbying I mean I just I don't believe that the only way to sell hardware to government is to employ someone from government on your board and can't you go along and say we need the following hardware um and the people on decided that the divided say well it needs to do this this and this to serve the purpose we want I mean why is it gotta a reasonable operation why is it have to be done behind closed doors over lunch with with people being paid couple on grand on the board I mean final and especially being preoccupied with here and that is the skills of the civil service in actual procurement and Harvard our procurement skills are you know maybe that that buddy and that's that weakness in the Civil Service says itself to this system being more you're not so suggesting that the civil service cannot develop or sustain a culture of expertise but you have to get in an accounting firm who largely employing 25 year old GM worked anyway and every one of it by coming in to tell the civil servant well I don't buy de lennart we're very keen on this committee of making sure that civil service does have the right sales and yes have the guild SILS and does have risk analysis skills which they seem to have to buy in or go to someone else for and they've ocean inherent in our own civil service they always work and I have been guilty again but the skills they buy in which are really a point have resulted in a series of um government procurement scandals I mean the hospital IT scandal I mean that was all experts brought in and there's millions down the drain aircraft code you know ggg-good any of these things they're disaster where is this expertise am i returning the Grayson that good they're pointing to these bodies I remember being told by Lord Stevenson I can put it that way no but also developing a blanket yeah I'm wellness you make sure I we do Ida little anecdotes that in radiated world Stephen takes thing to be patiently that you couldn't have people who are bus conductors or waitresses always committee even be able to express themselves and if the joy are telling you that I've spent many years was as a bus conductor and I married a woman who's a waitress and that both of us been stringing old words together don't you think this is this you've been deadly snobbery amongst this LED flash it is constant danger and we shouldn't be expanding these committees about people or particular here if you're talking about ethics um you know we have a jury system which isn't only for former civil servants and distinguished members of parliament and other people AB sit on tourism and work out who's been good or bad so why can't be some of them honor on a more elevated report our team manager suggested them not just loses a super this should be a big in-house by team capacity takers government has been ripped off time and time and time line by IT companies when you get it wrong the head several gives another contributor together yeah well Richard right about unbe that was one of the first biggest stories and that seemed to me was it twelve million dollar grant or pretty per billion since you know maybe some stage gum has established you know the IT frustrating intake I'm not on that which is fine okay it wasn't a big point about civil service expertise ER and when I was in the civil service I spotted this drift towards expertise went out of began to go out of factory and if you wanted to press to the upper echelon as you did that my shame how big you were in delegating and all sort of nebulous common things not having expertise in your subject and that really became under our I think it has been for at least 20 years got some serious work to Dorn them and they roll revolving door system doesn't help because you just you want expertise you buy it in it's like living on takeaways do eventually get pretty unhealthy we continue in that they improve a long time because we are very sympathetic to that view and the video reports we've made many recommendations about creating more specialisms and specialist capabilities releasable service it doesn't have to rely on contractors for that kind of activities um moving on Shogun I just have a simple question eBay what can be the selectivity to ourselves and and recommend in this report to improve your system to enjoy it's independent and to take it forward I mean I'm reiterating points you made men do it harder and I think try and we we try and get certain amount of publicity for the points that are being made determine you have to sort of push it with your colleagues and because it has to go mean we think has to come from prominent I hope that you'll arrive at subject again at a good time given the days of Moses long in a prime minister and certain statements been made but I think that's really something to to trade all of her and I had with Prime Minister that's less about jobs to the boys that might actually be thinking about the girl um other any other points you want to make our you listen to us and such a part of the analysis and memorizing for that because I think we covered quite a lot of the ground and duck session is over I don't want to shortchange this I just have one small point which is where we've been very rude about October which is really interacted up the system I would advert as a journalist I found day to day dealing with the officials who represent the program the press office is very very good they're very helpful they very quickly provide you with the information that they can inherit limited by the system and there are some people there know to be the press officer who's very helpful indeed I suppose a white would would have is that I think and it would be possible to look at mr. Garris relationship with mr. Murdoch and he make up the conclusion that it's fine but some that would be able to attend well they look this already they've beaten but he's got proof which I think everyone uses yes inside this profession is journalism should not be allowed to carry on by profession i sat through the entire proceedings in medicine in which one the main points was the closeness of the relationship to senior members of the Conservative Party and mr. Murdock used to go to have a number of meetings will attend Williams in various it is the bomb so I think there is question there about when you're in off this which is what we've talked about imagining the future when you might need the generosity but say this Murdock to sustain your career and whether that would influence the decisions you may need that would be absolutely bang-on what we've been talking about so far so I think I think there probably is a question yeah but in my coin mr. gross face how how readily do you think he was anticipating been wearing as now at this particular moment judging by the look on his face in the morning breakfast if it wasn't we're saying it there might be in the back of his mind so with what from what criteria would you expect a pervert above refuses of the face is proposal I'm not saying they should have refused but I hope they look very very closely I'm sorry I missed the full report but um I've nearly been interesting to go through apparently on that point number really company but I think whatever body you had the altar repose Africa leader powers to investigate because you're the question tool going out here are well who who did what when and the most expensive methods of detail books any watchdog needs to be able to look at and it's about verification with the evidence with which show presented guitar completers that evidence see whether it's corroborated did you get the point jobs are second job and I'm putting my initials into this one and buttocks this still are a number of MBAs we think is perfectly right like a second job is sometimes more lucrative movement in there very different following salary doctor one can argue in the debate I'm not totally changed about that I mean be it just depends what the job is and whether it conflicts with your primary job as an MP final and possessive body other I do have value microbes but are they having no personal financial gain problem the diabetes is actually predictable and no it's I mean need to make money failure nothing astonishingly because of their high moral tone the money does go to a charity but I just finally got skills to Brooks about the you you are a an exception in the civil service and we've be led to believe that the the overwhelming ethos of these civil service is the unimportance of being right and those civil servants who say yes or a no so to get political masters is once into careers flows and those even with report in possession of an intelligent idea in America ideas careers of women and and that's a process that the desert is getting worse and more obvious in the civil service is that you're near when there isn't deterioration in the also the symbol syllabus well Arkansas I left 10 11 years better but but I did I get sense that if the civil service was becoming more politicized in the sense not left or right but in the sense of going along with what the political masters said and the people who progress to the upper ranks were the ones who said yes we ended up with a lot of disasters because of that is mentioned a few of them not just big projects or policies as well big promises like light touch regulation we further to a sector for example whether people amended the political wind and we're not going to say that right will be such a good idea in minister to surviving in spite of being at one mental waste of money being white elephant they're better than one I think we should roll in October I didn't go for I didn't finish line is behind all the horses and I'm studiously avoiding the temptation to run but I thank you very much indeed for coming from the stagnation I hope you will follow the work of this committee leaders thank you and can I ask colleagues to stay behind for a second Oh

Channel: I Am Incorrigible

Views: 116,301

Rating: 4.8701301 out of 5

Keywords: imincorrigible, news, politics, The Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Select Committee, Michael Gove, Ian Hislop, Richard Brooks, Private Eye, Rupert Murdoch, Corruption, Leveson, Dave Hartnett, HMRC, Deloittes, PWC, Bernard Jenkin

Id: P6cFZhVLMEg

Length: 58min 31sec (3511 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 31 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/James20k]

This is actually much more interesting than what the title implies, its about the corruption of government and how the current government is totally failing to do anything about it (probably due to said corruption)

[u/LlamasAreLlamasToo]

This was nearly two months ago, and nothing happened. It really is sad that the old prick has so much power.

[u/OozhassnyDevotchka]

All the wrong people are dying this year.

[u/EuropoBob]

I watched this a while ago and then had an argument with someone here or /r/ukpolitics about the revolving door. The person wouldn't accept that government and regulators should be training their own experts instead of hiring outside consultants. It stemmed from the whole BT and Openrach thing a few weeks ago.

[u/carr87]

How embarrassing, Hislop is having to explain it in terms a 5 year old could understand. Bernard Jenkin, in particular, is well known for being as thick as shit.

[u/helpnxt]

Ian Hislop needs to run for PM he is sensible and actually cares that the country does well, also he knows enough about all of them that he could navigate the commons very effectively

[u/cosmicmeander]

Someone posted this the other day: https://youtu.be/qLQxz9WFZGA?t=1m44s

[u/notbarrackobama]

I like this ian hislop fellow let's make him prime minister

[u/[deleted]]

Revolving doors = legalised corruption.