We are filming today for the Hamilton College
Jazz Archive in Aspen, Colorado. And it's a pleasure to be with Howard Alden
today, guitarist. HA: Nice to be here. MR: Welcome to out west. Being born in 1958 in California - is that
right? HA: That's correct. MR: My information is correct. Could you do surfer guitar if you wanted to? HA: Probably not if I wanted to. MR: No kidding. HA: You know I mean when I was growing up
I never had any interest in that kind of music. At that time the types of guitar sounds I
was hearing on the radio and stuff, didn't really appeal to me. They always sounded kind of tinny and corny
to me, quite frankly. MR: Yeah? Beatles and all that stuff? HA: Never was interested in it. MR: That's interesting. HA: I was a real weirdo. And finally, I was kind of interested in the
guitar. I used to see guitar players on television. I used to see actually country players on
shows like "Hee Haw" and stuff like that, and it was kind of intriguing to me. And I started playing a four string guitar
when I was ten, and I took it to a local music store, and mentioned that there was also a
four string banjo at home. These were in the closet. They belonged to some distant relative. And the guy was an old banjo player and he
says, "Hey, bring in the banjo, kid." And so before I knew it I was playing four
string banjo, learning how to read music, learning how to play tunes and stuff. And a couple of years later I got a six string
guitar, and was exposed to the records of people like Barney Kessel, Django Reinhardt
and Charlie Christian. I loved that sound, the sound of that guitar. I loved the sound of I guess what you call
the classic jazz guitar sound, the amplified archtop guitar. It sounded richer and fuller. And that just really hooked me on the guitar. MR: Did you get influence from your family? Your parents, were they musical? HA: I'd say they were musical but they weren't
musicians. You know they had a lot of good records around
the house. They had everything from jazz to light classical
stuff and some show tunes and stuff like that. And when I was very young I came across some
old 45 rpm records and one of them I remember was a small group of Benny Goodman, one was
a Count Basie with his rhythm section, there was like a Glenn Miller record and some 78s
of Tommy Dorsey's band and stuff like that. And I was drawn to those. I was really interested in them. And like I said when I started playing the
stringed instruments, when I was ten, I was drawn to that kind of music, and then especially
when I heard the records with the jazz guitarists. MR: When you said you learned to read on the
string instrument, the banjo or whatever it was, was it typical - what do they call the
music for guitar that's not all the notes? HA: Tableture. MR: Tableture. I couldn't think of the name. And was it that? HA: No it was regular notes. This was a older guy and he had me start and
he says, "Okay, this is an A, this is a C," you know and then he wrote down the notes
and so I got used to reading music and he also had me playing songs right away, you
know, playing tunes. So I was playing music, playing things with
chords and melody and stuff. Not a whole lot of - like a lot of people
start out playing scales up and down and arpeggios and stuff, or else then just learn to strum
chords by ear and stuff. So I was very lucky to run into a teacher
that got me started that way, and got me playing tunes right away. And then when I was, I think I was about 13,
I started playing in a pizza parlor in southern California, and so I got used to playing songs
for an audience and stuff like that. MR: So you had a teacher who, as opposed to
just scales and all that, would teach you tunes? HA: Yeah, right away. Every week, a couple of different tunes, along
with reading the notes and playing chords along with the melody and stuff, which was
great training. Because I got used to playing things for people. You know when you sit down and play something
for someone, they want to say, hey play the guitar or banjo - you don't play them a scale,
you have to play them a tune or something. And I got used to performing live, very young,
too, when I was like 12 or 13. And about that time I picked up the six string
guitar and started trying to play that too, so I was working that into the act. MR: Okay, at 12 years old, what kind of live
performing were you doing? HA: A pizza parlor on the weekends, with another
banjo player and a guitar player, shopping malls. MR: Cool. HA: There were these banjo bands, believe
it or not, they were more of a social than musical type of thing, they'd get together
with anywhere from ten to fifty banjos and go play somewhere. MR: Yeah, I saw one of those in Los Angeles. I couldn't believe my eyes. HA: It's quite a sound, huh? MR: Yeah. HA: It sounds like kind of a big beehive or
something sometimes. Anyhow at that time then I was again trying
to learn the guitar both first by ear listening to the records and stuff and transferring
the knowledge that I had on the banjo over to the guitar, which was a different tuning
of course. And like that. MR: And the tunes you were learning off records
- I mean you were into jazz at this time? HA: Yeah. And on the banjo it was more all the old standard
tunes from the 20s and 30s and nineteen hundreds - things like "It Had To Be You," and whatever,
"Chinatown, My Chinatown" and stuff like that. All tunes I'm still playing today. We'll probably play some of those tunes tonight. MR: Isn't that interesting. HA: Yeah. And then tunes off of the records I was listening
to, the more contemporary jazz things too as well. It's a wide potpourri of things. MR: So about what age were you when you started
to say music could be a career for me? HA: I think I pretty much decided that when
I was about thirteen. I was performing all the time and felt comfortable
doing it, and figured that I could probably make a living doing it. MR: What about your parents? Did they feel the same way? HA: Yeah they were very supportive actually. It was very nice of them. You know there were a few hints about, "Well
you could become a doctor and then just play music for fun." But after a while they could see I was pretty
much obsessed with it. MR: I think they almost feel required to say
something like that you know. And later on they could say, "Well, we told
you." HA: Exactly. MR: Did you have any college experience as
far as music? HA: I had brief college experience. When I got out of high school I was living
in Southern California at the time, and I went to Cal State Fullerton because it was
nearby and seemed to have a good music program. But at that time the music schools were still
pretty much all classical oriented, and they wanted me to become a classical guitar major,
and so I had to start studying the classical guitar, which is a different technique from
the pick style jazz guitar. I started getting that together and after
about half a semester, Howard Roberts, a jazz guitarist in Southern California at the time,
who was also a great educator, he was a very brilliant teacher. He put together a school called - believe
it or not - The Guitar Institute of Technology, which was basically a year-long program, full
time, of - a guitar music program, like a trade school I guess. And I decided I would learn more there, you
know, being there and being in the real, working music business stuff. So I wound up going there the first year it
started, and learned a lot from people in the business who were teaching, people like
Mundell Lowe and various people at that time. And at the same time I was working a lot in
the area playing different jobs and stuff. So that was my college experience. MR: Right. Plus those fellows had lots of studio experience
too, I mean I'd imagine they just knew it all. HA: Exactly. MR: Or could prepare you better, what to expect. HA: Yeah. For the music business as such. And being able to be flexible enough too to
make a career out of music. MR: Did it get to a point where - let me rephrase
- did you eventually leave California to find a job, or did you leave California because
you had a job? HA: Well I left California, the first time
I left the west coast I was called by, of all people, Red Norvo, the great vibes player,
who at that time was just a distant idol of mine who I knew via Tal Farlow had played
with him, and my first guitar teacher, Jimmy Wyble had played with him for a long time
too. And all of a sudden I got this call. I was actually teaching at this Guitar Institute
of Technology, a couple of years later, during the day. He said, "Howard, this is Red Norvo." And I said, "Yeah." So anyway, he called me to spend a summer
with him in Atlantic City in a trio - bass, guitar and vibes. And four months, the summer of '79. And I wound up doing it, and getting a taste
of the east coast. Playing with Red everyday for the four months
was like a great apprenticeship, he was like a great mentor to me. I learned so much playing that summer. The type of things you don't learn in music
schools, naturally. MR: Like, can you mention a couple of things? HA: Well just a lot of aesthetic considerations,
and fine points about performing and listening and playing with people and playing contrapuntally,
playing sympathetically, comping, solos - everything. It's just a whole aesthetic approach. And I made a few trips up to New York on my
weekends off, and got a taste of the music that was happening up there, which was, quite
frankly, tons more than in California at that time. And it was the type of music I wanted to play
too. It was kind of a bebop Renaissance going on
then, and a lot of the old pros were still playing of course. So at that point, I was working back in California,
doing a variety of jobs, you know, a little bit of studio work, some private parties and
stuff like that, some shows. But I really wanted to move back to the east
coast at that point, to New York. And about a year and a half later, I got a
call from Joe Bushkin, a piano player, I was referred by my friend Jake Hanna that I'd
gotten to know, and so at that point I made the trip back to play a couple of weeks with
Joe Bushkin, and he had a return engagement coming a few months later for two months. So at that point I decided just to pack up
and move to New York, because I figured with two months work I'd get started pretty well. And like that. MR: There you go. And you've been in New York since then? HA: Yes. Since 1982. MR: Well I was reading through the list of
people you've played with and it's pretty extensive. I would imagine you have to be versatile enough
to figure out what this particular person is going to need from a guitar player. HA: That's exactly right. Definitely. Being a guitar player and being in the rhythm
section I get called to play with a lot of different people, more so than a horn player
I think, because a horn player is either going to be a soloist, or part of a group sometimes,
but usually either a major soloist or else play in a section in a big band. So I tend to get called to play in a lot of
small groups with different people. Joe Bushkin again wanted one thing out of
a guitar player, which was thrilling to play with him, he's a great piano player and a
great personality too. Right after Bushkin I ran into Joe Williams
and he asked me join him for some engagements, which was a slightly different thing. He was very easy to work with, great guy. Ruby Braff, the cornet player, I got to know
around New York and I started to work with him and he had - once he saw I was open to
suggestions he would suggest various things to me too, as far as complement, as far as
my playing, as far as my soloing even. And Kenny Davern I play a completely different
way with when I play with him. MR: Is it possible to be specific about that? HA: Yeah, well, okay, let's see. First, like Kenny Davern basically likes rhythm
guitar for accompaniment. He likes, you know, chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk
behind him, for nice, soft support for what he does. And then occasionally I play some parts with
him, like a horn, like another clarinet or something like that. Ruby Braff likes different accompaniment,
like some punctuations in the chords, some sustain chords, he doesn't like rhythm all
the time, he likes it sometimes. Again he likes, when you do play a part with
him he wants to hear it fully. Joe Bushkin also, when I first started playing
with him I figured he's playing a lot of piano all the time, so I figured it was bass, drums
and guitar, I'll just play light rhythm guitar with him. He says, "Nope! No rhythm guitar. Play horn riffs." You know, he wants a lot of active stuff. He wants a lot of punctuation and stuff like
that. So basically I kind of listen to the players
and try to decide what is most fitting for them and what's going to make them feel most
comfortable and what's going to make them sound the best. MR: Do they use the phrase "Freddie Green
guitar" with you? HA: Sometimes. MR: Occasionally. HA: Or just rhythm guitar. MR: Right. HA: So a lot of times then I just make the
decisions and I think that's one of the reasons I've been able to work with so many people
is I do go out of my way to figure out what is most appropriate for them and try to fit
in and be a good accompanist, which I enjoy doing. MR: Yeah, it's a real art. With piano also. You can function in a rhythm section or just
solo, one on one with a person. HA: Exactly. MR: Yeah. What's your instrument of choice these days? HA: Guitar. MR: No, I mean the specific brand of guitar. HA: Oh, okay, well for the last five, five
and a half years I've been playing a guitar made by Benedetto, Bob Benedetto. He's a guitar maker. He's been making guitars for about thirty
years now. He's located in Pennsylvania. And he just makes hand made archtop guitars
basically. And when I made the switch to seven strings,
since you can't really go out into the music store and buy one that easily, he made me
a beautiful seven string and he also made me a beautiful acoustic seven string, with
no pick-up just dry. And he also made Bucky Pizzarelli's guitar,
and quite a few other guys. MR: Does the seven string require some re-learning
for you? HA: A little bit. MR: Yeah? HA: At first, I mean basically this is a six
string guitar with an extra low A string. And at first you get used to just reaching
down there for some bass notes now and then on the roots of the chords. But to develop really comfortably on it, and
have some kind of facility with carrying your lines through and making some of the voicing
different, it takes a little while. It took me about six months to be able to
comfortably find the fourth string again. You look down there and see a sea of strings
and get confused as to which is which. So sometimes, like I took it right out with
me right after I got it. I took it out on a tour to Europe of one nighters
with George Wein's Newport All Stars. And for the most part it was okay, but every
once in a while like he'd ask me to do an introduction or play a solo piece, and I'd
have to go okay now one, two, three, there's the fourth string, okay, take it from there. MR: Who was the first person that you heard
to it with a seven string? Was it George Van Eps? HA: I heard one of George's records, again,
when I was about fourteen or so. Well this part time jazz guitar player, who
was also hanging around some of these banjo meetings, knew that I was interested in guitar
and was starting, and he exposed me to all these records, which was great. I was very lucky to run into him. So I heard George's records and let's see,
George was not performing much for some time. He wasn't around. He was just kind of this legendary name with
one record that I'd found. Then I also ran into Bucky when I moved to
New York and heard him playing the seven string. And every once in a while I'd pick it up and
- ah it's too much for me, it's too confusing. But eventually I got hooked on it. What happened was there were certain things,
like a lot of my favorite musicians were piano players like Duke Ellington and Thelonious
Monk and etcetera. And there are pieces of theirs that I'd want
to play on a guitar and didn't have the range or the right bass notes or the right voicing. So between that and getting to sit next to
George Van Eps and watch him play and see what he's able to do with it made me want
to switch. MR: Well speaking of non-guitar-playing influences,
you searched out a record of Bill Evans' music also? HA: Yeah. MR: Is his piano style difficult to adapt
to the guitar? Or wasn't there a conscious effort to really
- was it more of just a tribute or was it trying to cop his style? HA: Well I don't know that it's a matter of
trying to cop his style really, maybe just some of his feeling toward music or his approach. Obviously you know, on the piano you can play
a voicing with three notes right next together and you can't on the guitar unless you have
a hand about this long you know. So I always loved his music, again, since
I first heard it and always listened to it over the years. And mainly what I wanted to do is explore
his compositions though. The way he put different things together. I knew he'd written a lot of tunes that don't
get played very often over the years. So I wanted to explore that and at least there's
probably a subconscious attempt to sound somewhat like him in some of the voicings, or simulate
some of the sounds. His melodic lines and his single note lines
of course can be adapted to any instrument, they're always very logical and flowing and
melodic. MR: Who are some of your favorite compatriots
to work with these days? HA: Well let's see, you just talked to one
of them, Ken Peplowski. We've known each other almost fifteen years,
probably about twelve or thirteen years. And we play together quite often both in a
duo situation, which is a lot of fun, and next week we're working a trio with Michael
Moore and larger groups too, quartets and stuff like that. He's great too because we really do have like
a musical conversation when we play. Either one of us can go any way at any time
and the other person is fearless enough to attempt to follow or not, as the choice may
be. And he's got the flexibility on his instruments
to pull off just about anything he thinks of. So I love playing with Ken. And Bucky I enjoy playing with. There's a lot of different things. Warren Vache, back in New York I play with
a fair amount, again, usually like trios or quartets. And I tend to enjoy playing a lot of times
with just like guitar and one horn and a bass, because it seems pure situation for me. You know there's a lot of freedom and also
- I'm trying to think - of conciseness. And I have the choice of either playing a
full chord or just one note or nothing, and again it's like two voices plus a bass note
makes it a complete musical experience pretty much. MR: Right. Without the drums it's almost like everything
you play becomes more important. HA: Exactly. MR: Because it's really much sparer. HA: Definitely. Of course I love playing with drums too, because
every drummer makes me play a slightly different way and again, like Jake Hanna of course has
been one of my great friends for years, and has helped me a lot. And I love playing with him because he is
absolutely committed to the music. He's never compromising, always completely
into it, and just great to play with. And Michael Moore I love playing with too. There's a bunch of them. MR: Yeah. There are so many great musicians out there,
and I wonder sometimes, like how does everybody find work? HA: I wonder that myself sometimes. And sometimes they don't. Sometimes there's a few dry spells. MR: Yeah. Are you responsible for your own booking pretty
much? HA: Pretty much. I don't have a full time manager or agent
as such. A few people help me a lot. Well there's a guy in England that books me
over there - I usually go over there once or twice a year. And George Wein has been a lot of help over
the years. He's always put together things or provided
employment opportunities, which has been great. But pretty much myself at this point. MR: As you look at your income tax statement,
from one year to the next, does it seem like it's getting better as you go along? HA: Slightly better. No complaints. MR: Well as long as it going upwards. HA: You know I've been able to make a living
and pay the rent and play the music that I love with people I love. So I feel very good about that. And I haven't had to make any horrible sacrifices,
lifestyle wise. Of course, well let's see, what did Jake say
years ago, he said, "I try to keep the music simple and the overhead low," or something
like that. MR: Yeah. I can't wait to talk to him. HA: Oh yeah. MR: You've played with some real legends in
the music business: Benny Carter and Dizzy and all that. When that first happened, did you feel at
all - was it nervous for you? HA: Not really nervous as such. Actually I look at it as just a great opportunity. Again, like the people I met when I moved
to New York, like Ruby, Kenny, some of the old timers there, Doc Cheatham, you know shortly
after I moved to New York I made a recording with Doc Cheatham, and that was fifteen years
ago. And at that time I was saying wow, this is
great. I'm getting to play with this guy and it's
probably his last record date. At that time he was like 78 or something like
that. Little did I know I'd be traveling around
the world with him, ten, twelve years later. Just amazing. Same thing with Milt Hinton. But like for instance Benny was quite a thrill. I remember I played on one of these jazz cruises,
on the S.S. Norway that they do every year. It was about 1987, yeah it was '87. I was on there playing basically with Flip
Phillips and Kenny Davern and a few other people. And a couple of sets were put together with
Benny, and Mel Powell the piano player, I think it was Milt and Louie Bellson. I remember having a great time playing with
them and everything, and I was thrilled enough about that. And then about a week later after I got home
I got a call from Benny and he says, "This is Benny Carter." "Yeah, great." "I'm just wondering if you're available for
a couple of sessions next week?" MR: Let me check my book. HA: Let me check my book, yeah. And he told me where it was and stuff. And then he said, "Let's see, well it will
be Roland Hanna and Louie Bellson is going to make it, and George Mraz, and Diz is going
to come by for a few tunes." So after I changed my underwear - no I mean
these guys were just so nice and so casual about it too. And Benny was, I remember going to the date
and getting there a little early every day, naturally, and Benny would be sitting at the
piano. It was all originals on this record that we
made, most of which he'd just written before the date. He's sitting there and he says, "Howard, come
here. Do you think the bridge should end like this
or like this?" MR: Oh, my. Wow, what a spot. HA: So that was quite a thrill you know. Same thing, getting to play, fairly regularly
for a few years, with the Newport All Stars with Clark Terry. It was nice traveling with him every day and
listening to him play every night. Sometimes I look back and can't believe the
opportunities that were given me. MR: Is it possible to put into words how those
gentlemen feel about what they do? Do they consider it an art form do you think? HA: Hmmm. That's hard to say. You know because some of them-
MR: I mean we've almost elevated jazz to a place now where it's part of Lincoln Center
and all that, and I was just curious, if those real veterans have that - if they always felt
it was that thing, or just that now they're able to. HA: I think it may be a little bit of both. I mean obviously they always loved and had
conviction for the music and kept playing it all these years. When I look at someone like Clark, who is
such an amazing, consistent player, I mean night after night of these one nighters we'd
all be tired and stuff, and every night he'd still have that same gorgeous tone and beautiful
lines and stuff. But Clark is also like a great entertainer
and he's a great trooper. You know he's going to deliver, no matter
what. He's just in the habit of it. He can't help it. I'm not really sure. Let me try to think of some other people. MR: I guess I'm thinking of Doc Cheatham,
guys like that who were entertainers, they were playing in pits and everything. HA: Sure. Just doing gig basically, playing in a section,
Latin bands. MR: I supposed it's interesting for them to
see that the music is - now I'm on stage at Carnegie Hall. HA: Well I'm sure, yeah. Even someone like Bud Freeman, who I got to
know a little bit too. He started out playing in speakeasies and
stuff in Chicago, and later was able to tour around and just do his thing. It's hard to generalize. I mean each one is such a unique individual
too. MR: What's it like to travel overseas? Is the music accepted or not accepted in a
different fashion? HA: I think it's accepted very well. You know the main thing that I notice is that
in general, overseas, there isn't such a saturation of media - television - there aren't ninety
channels of T.V. in France or certainly not England and various places like that. So I think people are more used to going out
to live performances, and they enjoy it more. Of course most of the time I go overseas it's
especially for jazz festivals or special jazz clubs or something like that. I go over to England, like I said, once or
twice a year. And the audiences there are great, very knowledgeable. I just got back from Australia a few days
ago, my first trip down there. Aside from being a beautiful country - and
there's some great musicians down there too - the audience seemed a little younger too,
you know in general, and I'm not sure, the same thing in England I guess in some places. Germany - I don't know the reception has always
been great. In certain places, like England and France
of course there's like the old school, like they'll do a hot club in France and it goes
back to the thirties, and there's the old guys that know all the records, and they'll
listen and scrutinize and listen very carefully. And there's young people who just go because
they enjoy music. And that's what I like to see actually is
I like to play in a place where people just come in, hear the music, aren't necessarily
going to be scrutinizing everything carefully or compare it to the records they heard or
stuff. But if they hear the music and like and enjoy
it, that's the whole idea anyway, and that's how it started. MR: Right. And when you look at the audiences that are
at most of these jazz parties, it becomes a bit worrisome I think. Because there aren't the young faces. HA: Exactly. On the other hand, to come to the jazz parties,
it's more or less of a semi-exclusive thing. I mean they don't say it is, but when you
talk about having to pay anywhere from $150 to $250 for a weekend, and come to a place
like this and put yourself up, it's, you know in order to get the younger audiences, you
have to make it more affordable and more accessible I think. They just want to go into a bar and pay $5
maybe or do a two drink minimum, like that. Like there's a little place in New York that
I play every Monday night with a bass player, Murray Wallen and Chuck Wilson, an alto player. We've been doing it for about nine months
now. It's just a little neighborhood bar. It started out it was empty on Mondays for
the first few weeks. Now it's packed every Monday night, just with
locals coming in and listening because they like the music. And there's no cover charge. I think he may have a minimum at the tables
now. But it's nice to see you know? MR: Yeah. It's nice that you can get a little evening
right in town, instead of having always to leave town to play. HA: Right. Exactly. MR: You must get tired or airplanes I would
guess. HA: Yes. I didn't for the first four or five years,
but I'm getting tired of it now. I admit it. MR: Is it - your family situation - is it
hard to be on the road all the time like that? HA: Not too hard. My wife - I've been married for a little over
four years, and my wife is a musician. She's a singer. We actually met on a tour over in Germany
some years ago, and so she's relatively tolerant of the whole thing. She knows she's been involved in the music
business since she was 15, and knows that it's like and she's able to travel with me
sometimes, either working or not working, so it's nice. MR: Right. I read a little quote that you had said, I
think it's you, about practicing. And if you don't practice for one day, that
you notice it? How did that go? HA: Oh, right. I was paraphrasing someone else. I think it dates back to one of the great
classical musicians or something. I heard it from George Van Eps, via George
Van Eps. Yeah, if I don't practice for one day I notice
it; if I don't practice for two days, the conductor notices it; and if I don't practice
it for three days everybody notices. MR: Yeah. What's your practice - if you sit to practice,
what do you practice these days? HA: Well I try to practice things that cover
all the technical moves and I try to practice things that involve, again, musical contacts
that I like. I try to play some things that have a lot
of single notes, like some Bach preludes or something like that, and I try to practice
some chordal things, I try to play some tunes, and explore some new tunes that I'm learning,
and a little bit of stuff like that basically. Not enough of course. MR: When you get to these festivals, you had
mentioned I think before the tape was rolling that you were interested in seeing the schedule
because you weren't quite sure who was going to be here. HA: Yeah, well I wasn't, in this case. MR: And you don't know who you're going to
play with until sometimes the afternoon of the gig. HA: Quite often, or sometimes a few minutes
before the set. MR: And in some respects it's an adventure. Do you ever get grouped with people that some
promoter or whomever didn't quite realize that this wasn't going to be the match made
in heaven? HA: Not very often I'm glad to say. In fact I can't think of any time right off. Well when I come to a thing like this, a jazz
party, most of the musicians, in fact all of them actually, I've known for some years
too, so they're all friends, I just wasn't sure exactly who was going to be here or what
combination we'd be in. It does give you - you know sometimes, like
when I went to Australia I went by myself and I knew I was playing with some local bass
players and drummers. I'd asked for bass and drums in a couple of
cities. And I was a little bit apprehensive at first,
knowing exactly what they sound like and who was going to be there. But like the first bass player and drummer
I had in Sydney for a few nights, I had got together with them in the afternoon. And they wanted to rehearse and play, you
know, we played about eight bars and I knew everything would be fine. MR: Okay, end of rehearsal. HA: And of course they wanted to keep playing
though. "Hey this is fun, let's play some more." I says, "Well everything's going to be cool,
don't worry about it, don't think about it." And for the most part, once you get to a certain
level you know most players are going to fit in with each other one way or the other, and
sometimes I get some pleasant surprises or get some new ideas from people too. It's just like meeting a new person and getting
their viewpoint on everything. MR: Right. Have you ever been a teacher of guitar? HA: Yeah. MR: Oh, you said at the California institute. HA: Yeah. After I finished there I stayed on at first
as kind of an assistant. That was classes of guitars. But teaching various specialized subjects,
you know, whether it was sight reading or harmony or things like that. I did that for a couple of years in between
other things, and then quite frankly I got really tired of hearing the little klink-klink
of guitars all the time, and took an extended leave of absence, which is still going on,
and in between I was doing some gigs in California and moved to New York. And basically I get together with people usually
on a one or two-shot basis, because I can't keep a regular schedule. And if you're going to study the guitar, you
really need to have some kind of regular follow through. But I try to give some pointers and some troubleshooting
and ideas to look at. MR: Do you get involved in jazz education
at all? HA: Well just from what you've said and a
few times done a little so called little clinics at colleges and stuff, and usually with guitarists
but sometimes with whole groups and stuff, to give them some ideas for ensemble playing
and things like that. So to a limited extent. Basically I mean the jazz education material
that's out there is so huge, voluminous now anyway. There's so much stuff to study. There's access to knowing what kind of scale
to play over what chord, and everything like that, and there's access to recorded material,
practically the entire history of jazz, which has never happened before, really. If you think back to the 40s, when people
were like digging around trying to find one 78 from 1929 of Louis Armstrong. And now you can go out and buy like everything
he recorded, on about 10 CDs or 20 CDs. So I usually, again try to deal with the type
of things that I learned from playing with the players that I've been able to play with,
aesthetic considerations, and the fine points of performance, and thinking about what you're
playing. MR: Do you feel the market is oversaturated
with any of that? I mean there's so much out there. HA: You mean in terms of recordings? MR: I guess. I've noticed usually at the jazz parties they'll
have the tables set up with the CDs. And there's so much. And I feel like gee I wish I could buy one
of each, because I'm sure all these guys deserve to have their CDs bought. HA: I think it could be actually. I mean again, it's so - there's been so much
of it and I mean and just on one CD. When you go to make a record - now - of course
they started out like 78s, making two good sides you know, or maybe four sides in a day. Then it became LPs and people were making
30 or 40 minutes or music. And now everybody's trying to make at least
60 minutes of music and maybe more, so the consumer doesn't feel like they're being gypped. And so you're trying to fit all this stuff
on. It's hard, sometimes you just want to make
a more concise statement sometimes. But yeah it is pretty saturated to tell you
the truth, and you've got to - I mean if someone who is relatively new to jazz goes to a record
store, they really have to either be guided or know what they're looking for, and then
of course it's just impossible to keep up with all the new stuff that's coming out. There's so many - there's a lot of great artists
out and they're putting out so much, but you don't know where to start. So that's just the way it is I guess. MR: I wanted to play something for you, and
get your comment on this. HA: Oh, that's George's piece. MR: Yeah. It sounds pretty good. HA: Yeah it sounds very good. MR: Who is that guy?
HA: Yeah. Well of course that's me playing one of George
Van Eps' pieces from the 30s. MR: It dates to the 30s? The piece? HA: Oh yeah. Probably 1936, 37, something like that. MR: Now did you take this piece and let's
say sophisticate the harmony? HA: No. MR: Or, he was doing that in the 30s? HA: That's every note that he wrote down. MR: Oh, no kidding. HA: Yeah. MR: That's interesting. Because I hear a lot of really close voices
in there. And do you have to like check this out now,
I'm not going to just pull this off the first time. There is some practice involved. HA: No, yeah, yeah. And that was on the six string of course. It was probably written before George even
started playing the seven string. I found an old folio of like three solos that
was published back there. A friend of mine gave me a Xerox copy and
I was checking them out. And I just got intrigued by playing them. And since this was my first record with George
too, I wanted to do one of his things on there. And I knew it had never been recorded and
stuff like that. But no, George, I mean he's such a meticulous
person too, but again, every voice is in place and it's all written out and scored, and I
just basically wanted to play it. MR: So what makes it jazz if it's all written
out? HA: Well it's mainly the feeling and the spirit
of the times basically. You know it's not - what was I going to say
- the other thing is that's the example, at that time people like Carl Kress too and George
and some other guitar players, they were really interested in playing the whole instrument,
and getting as much out as they could. There's little two note things, there's full
chords, there's three note voicings, and little voices moving in between. And it's just a way of playing that you don't
hear much anymore. And I think of that period, George's playing
in that style was the most sophisticated, all due respect to Carl Kress and Dick McDonough
and stuff. But sometimes their playing, next to stuff
like that, sounds a little more simplistic, although it had a great feel and stuff. MR: Could this be pulled off on an acoustic
instrument? That particular piece? HA: Yeah. Well yeah, at that time it was probably written,
or he was probably playing acoustic most of the time at that time. MR: The amps were just getting started. HA: Just getting started. In fact George told me, apparently around
1934, 33 or 34, the Epiphone company I think it was, yeah, was making a thing called the
"electar" that he was starting to play a little bit, but it was a little too advanced, you
know like Benny Goodman refused to let him play it with his band, and finally I guess
toward the end - in the late 30s, Ray Noble let him use it on a few numbers, but there's
no recordings of it. MR: Oh. Now I'm trying to remember who, historically,
they consider to be the first guy to play amplified. HA: Well the first guy to really make it popular
of course was Charlie Christian. There were other guys. George Barnes was playing the electric guitar
at the same time, maybe a year or two earlier. I heard some air checks from a radio show
from about 1937 or something with George Barnes, and it was pretty amazing. It sounds almost exactly like his playing
forty years later. It's still got the articulation and the little
phrasing things. And there were some steel guitar players that
were also amplified too: Floyd Smith made a record with Andy Kirk's band called "Floyd's
Guitar Blues," and it's really hard to tell exactly who was the first. MR: What's in the future for you? If I was to sit with you a few years from
now, and we could talk about, that you've been doing what? HA: Well hopefully playing better, and I don't
know. Quite frankly I'm just enjoying what I'm doing
right now. I just want to do more of it. And like I said, get better. Actually I'm working on doing some more solo
guitar playing. I'm always enjoyed doing a little bit over
the years and stuff. I'm trying to do more of that both on the
electric and acoustic seven string. MR: Try to keep the overhead low. HA: Keep the music swinging and the overhead
low. MR: Is there a racial thing happening in jazz
right now, one way or the other? HA: I'm not really sure. It crops up from time to time although it
seems more of a creation of the writers and promoters. All the musicians that I know, of whatever
denomination or color and stuff, all get along with each other fine. There doesn't seem to be any barriers there,
personally, musically. But I do think sometimes that a lot of times
the record producers and promoters want an all-black or all-young band or something like
that. And that is not good. Of course I've been playing over the years
with both black and white musicians, older musicians, I never had any problem with them. All the younger musicians I know I've never
had any problem with them either. So unfortunately I think it's more a creation
of the media as such. But it is there sometimes. MR: Yeah, I see in the audience too, even
more in the audience. HA: Well yeah. That's definitely true. I'm not sure exactly why. It's kind of a drag. Last time I did one of those jazz cruises
a couple of years ago, again, like I'd be playing with Flip Phillips, Kenny Davern,
Milt Hinton on bass - look out, the audience is all white pretty much. And look in the next room, Red Holloway and
Sweets Edison would be playing - they're friends of mine, I play with them, we get along fine
- but the audience would be all black, for whatever reason. And I wish - the white people could gain a
lot by listening to Sweets and Red, and vice versa. And it's just this thing, it's subconscious
with them or something, I don't know. It's with both groups. MR: You mentioned a couple of times, one of
our favorite people at Hamilton and that's Milt Hinton. He's quite a treasure, as is Mona. HA: Yeah. I met Milt when I first came to play with
Joe Bushkin, and just felt at home with him. He's always so supportive, and you know, he's
so supportive of younger musicians, older musicians, everybody. And there's no one who ever played bass like
him before, just the sound of his playing is just unbelievable. MR: Is there such a thing for you, working
with drummers, sometimes you hear the phrase "playing on top of the beat," "playing behind
the beat." Does that exist for you or is that just something
people make up? HA: I'm not really sure. I've heard that off and on for years and I've
thought about it. And I guess it sort of exists. I don't know if playing on top of the beat
is just rushing or not. MR: Like rushing without speeding up I guess. HA: I don't think that really exists though,
the more I think about it. If you're playing on top of the beat, you're
just slightly rushing, that's all. And the other guys trying not to rush maybe
hold him back, maybe not. I know that with the great drummers that I've
gotten to play with, it's usually just settled into a great groove, whether it's Jake or
Al Harewood or any of those guys. Yeah, I don't think it really exists. Ask Jake about it. You'll get a good answer from him. MR: Okay, I will. Let's suppose, just to wrap up here, let's
suppose you could put a dream band together to do a six month tour of the world. HA: That's a hard question because I've got
several dream bands in mind. MR: Let's say it was a rhythm section with
three horn players. Is that a group that you would want to do? HA: Oh sure, it would be. Gosh there's so many. MR: I know, there's so many people. HA: You're really putting me on the spot there
because I could do about a half a dozen. Actually one of the greatest drummers I've
played with recently is Lewis Nash, I love playing with him. And I don't know, Michael Moore is still my
favorite bass player period. There's a lot of other great bass players
too. MR: Michael seems to play really - how should
I put it - like a melody player almost. He seems to play a lot higher on his instrument. HA: He does, on his solos, yeah. Yeah he plays mostly up in the cello range. But his solos, no matter what else has been
going on before, he always comes in and he's got such a focus and poise to his playing,
it's just amazing. It amazes me too that someone could sit there
and play time for 30 choruses while everybody else does their thing, and then just come
in and play this incredibly beautiful thing and make everything else sound silly. Oh, gosh, well Ken Peplowski I love to play
with. It's a hard choice, you know? MR: Well it was just a question for fun. HA: Yeah, I know, I'm taking it very seriously. But Ruby Braff is one of my favorite players,
on the other hand Nicholas Payton is playing just so great these days too. So I'd have an A and B band or something. MR: Have you been in the role of a leader? HA: Off and on over the years. Of course I co-led a band with a trombonist
Dan Barrett off and on for a number of years. We had a little quintet that we used to try
to rehearse and write things for and stuff. And occasionally I'm put in the leadership
of more or less of an ad hoc or ad lib type of band too, to put things together. MR: Is it frustrating to not be able to bring
your own let's say group as much as you might like? HA: Sometimes. Although like I said I enjoyed going and playing
with new bassists and drummers and trying out different things, so that's just the reality
of the music business, until I get to a certain level where I can take out my own group all
the time, it's still good. MR: Well even the guys that have been around
for a long, long time, they just travel by themselves occasionally. HA: Yeah. It's rare when you can take out a working
group all the time. MR: Right. I guess that's part of what jazz is, is dealing
with, you know, having a vocabulary so you can deal with the others. HA: Exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth so
to speak. No it really is, that's what makes it interesting
and it is amazing, you know, when you leave New York and go someplace in Germany or Australia
for instance, and sit down and be comfortable right away with these people. It really is pretty much a universal language
as it were, by now. MR: It seems to be one of the things America
has really provided to the world. HA: Definitely. MR: Well that's kind of an upbeat note, and
I hope you enjoy your stay here in Aspen. HA: Oh, always do. I haven't been here for about three years,
but I made the first few parties they had and then missed it. MR: And you're off to where after this? HA: Back to New York, working a week in a
club with Ken Peplowski and Michael Moore. And then a week after that at Sweet Basil's
with Benny Waters. MR: Oh you're going to do the Benny Waters. HA: Yeah. The world's oldest, and strongest saxophone
player. MR: Yeah. He's a trip. HA: Yeah, he sure is. And after that a few things, going to Japan
for a couple of weeks on a little tour, and whatever else happens after that. MR: Great. Well best of luck to you and thanks for joining
us today. HA: Thank you.
