How To Write Scripts That Sell - Jen Grisanti [FULL INTERVIEW]

Film Courage: Does every  story begin with a log line? Jen Grisanti, Speaker/Story/Career Consultant,  Author: Loglines are a writer’s friend and I   think log lines give the framework of the  story. So many writers are resistant to   the logline. The logline tells the executive  (tells anyone who’s asking) what the story is,   what the framework is and it shows that the  writer has thought out the concept. Value   the process of doing a logline because when  you go to the page from the logline it will   be so much easier. When your logline doesn’t  work, your story doesn’t work. If you go to   the page and discover that the story is  not working it starts with the logline. Film Courage: How does a logline   determine whether the story will work? Jen: A logline, if you have the right components,   the writers that I work with I utilize a  formula to help them which is setup of: –Who –Create empathy  –Dilemma –Action  –Goal –Twist of irony  I have so many writers who will say Oh my God, I  can’t put all that in a sentence but when you do   it puts everything in order. It tells you what  is going to work and what is not going to work.  One of the tools that I learned helps  writers is when the adjective describing   the central character at the beginning of  the logline is something where we get a   sense of the void that creates empathy  for the character. We see how the goal   is a chance for transformation. Film Courage: Wow, all that!   You like to give how many sentences? Jen: I like them to do it in one sentence,   however, two sentences work. There are many  people in the industry who are fine with two   sentences as long as gravity is something that  that is there and we get a main sense of the   story points not a rambling second sentence are  there certain adjectives that you prefer to use   that void I like any adjective where I can get a  sense of the earlier wound that creates some type   of anticipation that creates some sense of the  flaw where I can get a sense of how the pursuit is   going in a direction that gives an opportunity to  heal the earlier wound does a screenwriter really   need a log line for their movie can't they do it  later after they've written the script I know many   writers that do the log line later and I think  that works however my preference when when working   with writers I notice that when they have the  log line it helps them so much with going to the   outline in the script and when there is a struggle  it's because they don't have a general outline of   where they're going now the log line can change  and when you start with log line and then you see   how the story comes through you and you discover  that the story is different than where you started   with the log line then you just rewrite the log  line so it's not set in stone that it's flexible   yes it is flexible the log line is something that  writers need to Value because it's showing that   you have a wellth thought out concept where you  are able to deliver it in one or two lines and   the receiver immediately knows what your story  is do you find with some of the people who take   your courses that they're open to flexibility  and maybe some are more rigid and they have a   hard time being open to changes I find resistance  a lot lot so I do feel that the value of doing   something like a course is that the writer will  get the information the writer will see the story   tool then they will see the application of the  story tool with the clip and the example of a   show or film and how to apply the story tool so  the courses even though you may have resistance   the value of doing a course is that the writer  understands your philosophy on story so that it   helps them in knowing how to apply it so there is  a tremendous value in giving Story tools giving   philosophy and then illustrating in action with  shows or films that are utilizing the story tool   at a high level so that the writer understands  how to use it is a log line really the job of   the screenwriter shouldn't that be left to the  marketing department no that should not be left   to the marketing department I have seen marketing  I remember there was a series on Fox a number of   years ago where the marketing department marketed  the show wrong and and because it was marketed   in a way and there was such high hopes for the  series but the marketing made it seem like it's   something that it wasn't and when you when I saw  the show coming from a current program a former   current programming executive point of view I  saw the reason that the audience didn't show   up because of that Gap that now I think there are  many marketing professionals who know how to coin   a story in a way that maybe adds to the writer's  intention however I feel that no one knows the   story like the writer what do you mean when you  say learn to identify by the log lines in your own   life emotional truth so emotional truth is for  me something that adds depth when you know the   emotions that you're exploring in a story when  you've gone through that emotion then you can   take us so much further into it and I feel like  with everything going on in the world right now   that people are craving depth and authenticity  and people are craving the feeling of someone   sees me someone knows me and that only comes from  an emotional truth of someone who has experienced   something similar to what the main character is  going through so you think maybe in the past we   wanted to see more of like a dream version of  who we are but then now we actually want to see   ourselves the warts and all represented I do I I  think that's very well put it used to be that you   wanted a character you always want a character  you empathize with and you root for so no matter   how flawed a character is I think the balance of  finding POS positive traits to negative traits is   a very big challenge because it is so important  for the writer to create a vulnerability with the   character that lets the audience in and streaming  certainly has opened up the gate to character arcs   that are going so much deeper and I think when I  compare streaming to television I feel like film   also goes to a depth that streaming goes to  and I think the network shows are starting to   catch up with that but I feel like there's more  Liberty in streaming and film to go through the   transformational arc and to not feel the surface  part of of the character but through understanding   the wound the flaw the dream the biggest fear  creating multi-dimensional characters that mean   something what is dilemma dilemma is something  that I can't believe I didn't know the value of   dilemma when I was an executive I cannot believe  in all the scripts I analyzed over 12 and 1 12   years that I didn't have it termed I think I  Loosely understood dilemma in terms of story   and conflict however I it wasn't until after I  left the studio and dived into story in every way   imaginable that the word dilemma came into into my  realm I understood dilemma through structuralist   Jeff Kitchen yes that that I first took one of my  very first structure courses from when I became   an executive and when I left the studio I relooked  at what I learned from Jeffrey kitchen and dilemma   somehow just came to me in this way way that  changed how I see story and and that became   everything for developing my brand and looking  at the value of dilemma I feel like so many   story people skip over or don't Define dilemma and  dilemma is everything to setting up a story when   we feel how the character is caught between a rock  and a hard place and we for me I think the aha   moment that went beyond what I learned from Jeff  was the recognition that the choice the character   makes in the Dilemma is what defines the external  Pursuit so that was my big aha moment that helped   me I I think there's so much that we learn from  everybody who's studying story I've been analyzing   story for 30 years now and when I look at my  counterparts who think in alignment like Jeffrey   kitchen like Michael heg like John York they're  there when you have people where Dara marks that   are seeing story in a similar way and you kind of  look at like what is their terminology versus my   terminology and what what is aligned and what is  missing and how do you redefine something so that   the writer can grasp it more is dilemma the same  as problem dilemma I feel like is something that   everyone in life understands because we all face  dilemas continuously so I think the difference a d   between a dilemma and a problem a problem is more  of like an obstacle versus a dilemma is creating a   Pursuit so a problem or obstacle is more something  that happens to a character on the way to a goal   versus a dilemma is a trigger event that was  another thing that I added to dilemma was the   recognition that a trigger event happens to the  character before they face the Dilemma so that was   something that was missing in what I understood  of it before as well and that was something that   I was like Ah that's what was missing so when  there's a trigger event that leads a character   to a dilemma then the the choice that they make  in that dilemma defines a pursuit so that's what   differentiates a dilemma from a problem and some  of that is is set up before the act the story   starts because it's a childhood wound yes yes I  have come to find in the way I teach and C story   that the stories that are hitting at the highest  level are stories where it's almost like a math   equation it's it's almost like you're looking  looking at the trigger event that happens in   childhood then you're often looking at a trigger  event that happens before we enter the story and   then the inciting incident or series trigger  and dilemma in TV will split open those two   wounds and then you're developing the character  from those three places as a way to add depth   to the character how does a character's backstory  influence their goals and their dmas when you look   at in life and we think about like I think a TV  show that I feel like perfected the idea I think   when loss first started and it looked at memories  in our life it looked at because the way that loss   developed character at first was the idea of  going back to a specific moment in a person's   life and kind of arcing that out and then when I  think about the way it evolved was a recognition   that the flashback sequence was recognizing that  it isn't Just One Moment In The Arc of that moment   that influences our choices in the present it is  a series of moments from different life traumas or   Joys or failures that inform choice so by going  to different life places then then we feel what   is influencing why the character is choosing the  way they are how do past wounds hold a character   back I I like to think that when you look at the  past wound you're looking at starting with the   childhood wound you're looking at something called  a negative narrative that we can all identify with   the voices we hear in our head that tell us I'm  not enough I'm not good enough I'm not worthy of   this that starts with the childhood wound and  then progresses from that negative narrative   in the mind that goes into a flaw and when you  go into the flaw the flaw is what's holding a   character back and again we all identify with  flawed Behavior we all have flaws and and we   all become conscious of our flaws does not mean  we heal our flaws we become conscious and story   is the opportunity for the character to become  conscious of that flaw and decide if they want   to acknowledge the flaw or if they want to resist  working or processing through that flaw in order   to get to the goal have you seen it where writers  make their characters too perfect or too flawed   both yes both I I feel the the characters that are  too perfect are characters that we can't identify   with like characters it used to be that when  you read scripts and you would read a character   description you would read oh she's beautiful or  he's handsome and it started sounding like rubber   like you you can't tell anything about a character  from that description and I think writers have   gotten to a place where they recognize the value  of describing a personality trait is going to   bring you much deeper into that character and  understanding that character how many dilemas   should a main character face in the story there  are two pivotal places for the Dilemma the two   pivotal places are in the inciting incident setup  or in the climax the value of having a dilemma in   both places is a tremendous value because it  shows you is the character going to transform   or not when you look at the the structure that  I've seen shows and films do where you have the   character often facing a similar dilemma in the  climax that they faced in the inciting incident   then the question becomes did they learn through  going through action obstacles and and Stakes did   they learn what the flaw was that was holding them  back and through that recognition are they able to   move forward so if the writer puts a dilemma in  the opening and the climax as well as setting up   if you're doing streaming setting up what's coming  next as a cliffhanger then there those are three   places that there is tremendous value in using a  dilemma but the opening and the climax are great   places for the Dilemma how much does the viewer  really want the character to change I mean in   real life most people don't really change that  much yeah you know they might work on themselves   but we're still kind of all who we were at s years  old so how how much do we really want to see our   favorite characters evolve it is a great question  in film the transformation is everything because   we want to know that the character evolved  from how they thought in the beginning to how   they think in the end and there's something that  with the format of the beginning midal end that   fulfills us if we can feel that transformation  versus in say like when you look at the Sopranos   and people would say well Tony Soprano is never  going to change so I think that's where it comes   to Advanced writing when you recognize all right  there are certain parts of a person that won't   change however within the conflict involved in  each story you do want to feel like the character   is is taking a step of awareness that is causing  even a slight change it's not going to change the   character trait of the dominant flaw however the  awareness has a universal effect for the audience   to become aware of what is holding them back and  when you see a character who can move through   that block then it helps the audience to think if  they can do it I can do it well I haven't watched   the second season of White Lotus but I don't know  if I really want to see Jennifer kage's character   change too much I like the way she is because I  enjoy watching she's kind of a lovable hot mess   yes and I don't know if I want her to become  perfect you know in season 2 she's a lovable   hot mess oh good okay okay oh yes that's very well  put in that description she is a lovable hot mess   in season two she I feel like Mike White is very  authentic to the recognition of what the strengths   of that character is and plays into that season  two is brilliant oh great I'm looking forward to   watching if you liked season one you are going to  love season 2 what is story therapy story therapy   therapy is something that I developed with the  recognition with how psychology and story are   so connected whether it's the psychology of the  writer the psychology of the protagonist or the   psychology of the audience it is all about the  transformation that happens so it's therapeutic so   story therapy was a term that came to me with the  recognition I knew about narrative therapy that   was something that I studied when I was taking  a deep dive into looking at story from all sides   I'm all about the idea of how do we draw from  meditation how do we draw from spiritual books how   do we look at healing books that help writers that  help us also take a deep dive into the psychology   of the character through looking at a wound that  didn't heal in the past that is creating a block   in the present and preventing the character  from hitting the dream in the future so the   recognition of this was that through the pursuit  if the pursuit is an opportunity for the character   to become aware of the flaw that is holding them  back and an opportunity for them to go one step   toward healing that earlier wound then we get  how the story is therapy does the viewer also   become healed it's interesting we just watched a  show by Abby Morgan called the split on Hulu and   it's interesting that you say that because when I  was a an executive at spelling television I went   through my parents divorce after 25 years then  I went through a divorce myself so I was in this   bubble of of pain and of hurt and I remember going  to the president of spelling and saying we should   do a show on divorce this is something that would  help the audience heal this is something that 50%   of the us is going through and if they're  not going through it then they their family   is going through it or they know it it through  their friends so the audience is massive and   at that point so many shows dealt with divorce  but they did surface level and the split by Abby   Morgan takes a much deeper dive into divorce where  I felt like being in a committed relationship and   watching three seasons of the split was amazing  in that it brought up questions for couples to   ask each other by showing through the character  transformation of what if somebody has a secret   that could get in the way of the marriage and the  idea of through a family law firm you have Hannah   who is a sought after divorce attorney and then  you she has two sisters and a single mom that   raised them we find in the series Arc that the  father returns after a 30-year absence so you have   three characters who have the same wound you're  going through the main worldview of Hannah and   Hannah has a secret and this secret could shatter  her marriage and the secret also involves a love   triangle which is another great thing for writers  to recognize when we look at love triangles and   you see that the love triangle makes the audience  die to know what the answer is and to know which   direction which leads from dilemma as well that  the character is going to go in so yes I believe   that story is therapy that can healed the audience  and for those of us who were latchkey kids myself   included watching Kramer versus Kramer yes as  a as a young person was definitely probably I   was too young to be watching it but that was  one that you could identify with if you were   in a situation like that and it stayed with you  like Kramer versus Kramer stayed with you you   forever remembered like I in my mind immediately  go to that scene by the toaster where he you know   where he is unfamiliar in this space with this  child and suddenly has to learn something and you   immediately feel the vulnerability and it helps  you understand the transformation and then when   you're in it that type of pain which could go into  everybody's biggest fear who's ever been in love   is what is the consequence of loving deeply and  that is the idea of the breakup the idea of the   split and and so when you create story like Kramer  vits Kramer and and the split which was shocking   to me that I had never heard about this show and  yet this writer Abby Morgan wrote a show called   river that I explored that was also so brilliant  so it it when I find shows like these I love   exposing people to them and telling people about  them so that they can find them because it's all   about right now as an audience member looking for  a story that speaks to us story that we know what   the writer is trying to say through the concept  and how the central character feels about the   concept in terms of the main conflict what is  a creative concept within a story The Creative   concept could go into the intention of the writer  when you look at things like the external concept   the plot versus the internal concept having  to do with the character transformation and   what the character has to learn and the creative  concept of how does one uniquely affect the other   for example when you look at a show like Ted lasso  I look at a show like Ted lasso and I think oh my   gosh the Brilliance of taking a show and grounding  it with the idea of two people who have to figure   out how to move forward when a marriage doesn't  work and then you add the external plot of a US   football coach being brought over to London to  teach I mean to coach a Premier League soccer   team brilliant cuz you look at and you go story  is going to come in first you have the agenda of   Rebecca who her motives for bringing Ted lasso  over are more antagonistic however seeing the   transformation between their Dynamic and two  people who have parallel life traumas that are   going on and then you add a soccer team where  story is coming in and then you also add an   amazing flaw with optimism ISM and the idea of  someone who is overly optimistic getting in the   way and then you thrust them into the British  audience where this character is considered a   wanker because he doesn't have the skill set and  that's where growth happens so that goes into   the idea of a creative concept where the external  and the internal are working how do fears within   a character raise the stakes fears are everything  fears are also something that we all have and when   you look at what is the character's dream versus  what is their biggest fear when we look at the   biggest fear we're looking at the consequence in  the idea of how the internal Stakes are affecting   the character and how they make Choice there are  many writers that don't set up the fear and when   you fail to set up the fear then you fail to  set up the internal and or external Stakes at a   level where the audience identifies again fear is  something very Universal in all of us I always say   to writers what is the worst thing that can happen  if the goal is not achieved and that goes into   Fear Can we explore incorporating the past present  and future into story yes the past is the earlier   wound and when you're looking at the past it can  be an event like in in the show the split when   you have the the inciting incident be a father who  returns after a 30-year absence then you are in a   immediate recognition of the Void in the famili  members because of this choice so the past in   that situation is defined by an event versus the  past you can also identify by someone who's just   emotionally absent you can have a parent who is  an alcoholic and there is no specific event but   there is a wound that happens from the emotionally  unavailable parent so that goes into the past and   then you the present is something happens which  creates the why now that we are entering the   story when we are with the inciting incident that  splits open the earlier wound and that something   that happens is awakens what happened earlier in  life and that with that Awakening the character   is Loosely aware but through the pursuit they  become more aware of the earlier wound I've seen   structures that work incredibly well when you have  the earlier wound when we feel how the inciting   incident awakens that wound then we understand the  void and when we understand the void that again   goes into creating empathy and rooting interest  with the character then with the future you are   looking at will the character transform or won't  they transform did you create the right external   plot for the character to become aware of what  was holding them back and is the character in   The mindset that they want to heal and you have  characters that we feel the full transformation   and you have characters that you are left with  that you feel like they didn't learn and there's   value in both because in the world there are  people in both mindsets staying within the Arc of   growth what's quieting the mind of the sort of the  the noisy survival mindset I like that term yes I   have come into the recognition the mindset thing  was a new thing for me in looking at character and   character Dynamics and recognizing that in life  we are in the intellectual mind we are in the   survival mind or we are in the intuitive mind  and for the majority of our lives and we are   very often rotating from one mindset to the other  for the majority depending on the life phase and   where you're entering with the character of Our  Lives we are in survival mindset so being in the   survival mindset there's more to play with with  the flaws with the vulnerability and think about   how do you move the character into the intuitive  mindset how what can happen to the character that   creates the Arc of growth that moves them into  the intuitive mindset another parallel that I   often think about like when you think in life how  we are all brought up on the idea of codependency   and the I wherever there's hierarchy which there  is in the family unit from the time we're born   and then we go into the work world and we go into  the Scholastic world and there is a hierarchy and   hierarchy creates codependency and the the job  for people is to figure out how do you go from   codependency to interdependency and the the value  and I think it used to feel like independency was   the key to everything but then the recognition  was interdependency so when you're looking at   how do you move from the mindsets it's a  similar thing that all has to do with The   Arc of growth of the character how could we show  a codependent character versus an interdependent   character versus an independent character so the  codependent character is often a character with an   alcoholic parent uh someone where the one of the  parents has been absent so there is a need that is   so connected with the comfort of another person  where they cannot distinguish the difference in   in the value of the codependent character person  is the untransformed place in a person's life or   a character's life so it gives you somewhere to  go the independent person can also be looked at   as a character that has a weakness or a flaw if  they're too independent that that is creating   an isolation in a different way an independent  person can also be looked at as a plus in that   they're not dependent on other people and then the  interdependent person character is the transformed   character who has gone through the emotional  work of what transpires in the story through   the actions obstacles stake sequence that leads  them to a transform form Med state so you can go   from a character who is flawed and codependent and  have a Pursuit that allows them an opportunity to   change and then at the climax they become aware  of the flaw and the choice is in becoming aware   of the flaw are they going to make a conscious  Choice when it comes to the resolution or are   are they going to stay in the flawed thinking so  if I were to put labels and these are my labels   on a codependent character needy in independent  character selfish and intra or interdependent   would be more balanced yes perfectly put okay so  that's how I could show these sort of phases that   are interesting and it all has to do with There's  an opportunity for growth and codependency like   a flaw is something that is in our lives all  the time because of the hierarchy of and the   interesting thing for me I it wasn't until I  went through a divorce and someone said have   you ever looked at codependency and my immediate  reaction was I'm not codependent maybe he was   codependent and then I I read a book on I think  it was called codependency no more and and it   described codependency as needing someone to need  you and I was like I'm codependent how Wild so I   understand the transformation because I've gone  through it I've done the work to understand how   do I go from the feeling of the hierarchy through  the system that Society sets up and then starting   my own business and not having the agenda of  others is part of the outcome only having the   agenda of how do we get the story to the best  place possible all of that emotional work is   part of what led to my transformation yeah and  and just like in life roles can change someone   can be ependent and then be the one that's sort  of sought after by the codependent our characters   can change too maybe maybe they're codependent  in one realm but then they're actually the ones   being sought after by a codependent in another you  know yes so and there's value like the codependent   person is certainly not an a bad person it's  not it it's 98% I think it was the stat or 90%   of society is set up on COD codependency so part  of our life process and challenge in life having   to do with mindset is how do we move from the  survival mindset of needing someone to need you   into the mindset that you are enough the flawed  thinking the negative narrative I'm not enough I'm   not lovable I'm you know I don't deserve and how  does the story trans form that thinking and bring   you to the idea of interdependency and the idea  of transformation sure some of our most lovable   characters I mean you could say Bridget Jones is  probably very good appended exactly exactly and   White Lotus strong example yes yes very strong  example but then she can flip on you and and and   start yeah so so she's real interesting I'm not  sure what her you know what they would put in the   DSM whatever it is five hour whatever the book is  but what her classic case would be but some very   interesting stories have all been built around a  Cod a codependent character oh exactly because you   think about what happens to a character when they  lose their comfort blanket which is a person what   happens to them which we all do in life we lose  we move on from from you know being in the family   unit to going going to college to the idea of  moving away from and as I I always remember this   saying which I loved that that kind of frames  the idea when I was at spelling television we   did a show called Queen Supreme and there was a  quote that one writer used in an episode that we   spend the first half of our Lives running away  from home and the second half trying to get back   oh that's great isn't it what do some writers  get wrong with flashbacks and some are good at   that's an excellent question that is something  that many writers struggle with the flashback   sequence and you have to recognize when you have  a flashback you are interrupting the flow of story   so if you're going to interrupt the momentum in  the present moment it has to be something that   is advancing the plot in the present by going to  the past and many writers will make the mistake   of not understanding that for the first thing and  then they'll have flashbacks where there's not an   arc of the flashback and when you have flashbacks  you need to go through the thinking of how is this   advancing my plot is this is going to take the  audience out of story so is it paralleling the   Arc in a way that there's a value in going to  the past is a way to better understand and add   depth to the present so the character can get  to the future if I remember correctly I know we   were talking about Emily the criminal off camera  yes we don't really see flashbacks of what her   initial dilemma was right and I think that makes  it so interesting it really keeps you hooked it   does like the the interesting thing is so and I  have there are many writers who will say why do   you have to have a wound do you have to have a  wound do you have to go into the past how come   the present Arc can't carry that weight and the  answer to that is is the present Arc if it is a   compelling enough dilemma and we feel it in the  framework of the setup can carry a lot of that   the value of understanding through not going  to flashback and like in a character like you   mentioned through not going to the flashback  but putting the weight in the present AR but   maybe through dialogue and character dynamic in  the present we are feeling the void of the past   through Choice through action without having to go  there or to know anything specific because we are   seeing it and writers have perfected I have seen  writers certainly when you look at the genre of   the action film you are often looking at you're  not going to go into the but but I even think   the action film has evolved in a way to where we  do feel the earlier wound and there are different   methods that were able to thread together the  emotional Arc in the same way so I think that   show did does a brilliant job of setting up a  strong enough dilemma in the present where we   feel something from the past without having to  flashback right because if I remember correctly   her dilemma which we weren't sure if we were going  to see the flashback is brought up a few times and   it's hinted at or it's directly talked about but  we never it really is this thing that keeps you   hooked yes and you know the opening scene if  I remember correctly was the job interview and   I thought that was just so brilliant how it was  played out yeah I agree so so I think it can work   where you it can work and I think also like you  tapped into something the the idea of the puzzle   of story what are you creating that is creating  anticipation that the audience is playing a mind   game through what you're revealing in the present  that makes you curious about the past when you   look at a show like the flight attendant and you  start with flashback we you start with the flaw we   see the very flawed Behavior with her promiscuity  and her parting and her drinking in the beginning   so you start with the flaw the flaw is the story  of the wound so that creates anticipation then   we get a hint of a flashback about her with her  father and the idea of a deer I think is the first   flashback and then by the climax we learn that she  lost her father but that's not giving us the whole   thing that's giving us two pieces of the puzzle  which is creating a curiosity which is creating   anticipation for the series Arc which we're going  to get the full story of what happened to Emily's   father how does that connect with her flawed  behavior that we see from the start and how does   the pursuit allow her an opportunity to heal so  do you think flashbacks are effective when they're   hinted at I do and I also encourage writers  to think about how can you use your background and the character action and choice to tell a  story without having to go to the flashback so   for example something that was so brilliant  with the split was and I missed it the first   time I saw the the first episode was when you  opened you saw Hannah and her husband were at   opposite ends of the bed and you felt the void  in the middle and then you cut to a series of   pictures of Hannah and her sisters and her mom and  then there's a picture where you can see that the   father was cut out and that was a hint without us  knowing yet what specifically happened we're like   huh what was that you know so I think that when  you quietly give us in information from the past   in the present there's a tremendous value if  you do it in a way artistically that creates   a curiosity and an anticipation from the audience  so yeah don't be too overt with the flashbacks yes   interesting yeah and I believe that there there  is a value to flashbacks you're going to have   many development Executives who will say don't  flashback don't do voiceovers that's lazy writing   you I I hear it over and over and over again from  writers who tell me that they're they're hearing   these instructions and then you watch the Golden  Globes you watch the Emmys you watch the Oscars   and stories that have flashbacks are the stories  that are hitting in the deepest way the message is   don't gratuitously take us to the Past only take  us to the past if there's value in the present   story yeah so any any type of especially like with  an orphan story like with forgive me I'm blanking   on the name with Dev Patel and Nicole Kidman Li  yes lion that that one a very effective flashback   CU you need that was like a double narrative that  that was very effective in the recognition if I   remember correctly I think that or no it was it  was linear but there but we needed we were in   the past before but that that inciting incident  was so powerful with what happened that changed   the trajectory of the of the boy's life sure and  in Queen Gambit as well another orphan story we   we needed to know certain things about how the  mom felt and her sort of worldview Queen Gambit   is brilliant the queen Gambit I was so emotionally  connected to that story and and what they utilized   that was so valuable is we We Were In the Heat of  the wound when it happened and we felt it and we   like we're we're like you're you're in when you  feel the wound In the Heat of the Moment that   it happens and then you have the puzzle of what  didn't I know that transpired before and after   that moment that is going to affect the present  plot and you bring us to those gaps then we're   in and and there's a value in that the there was  a show with Maggie gyllenhal called an honorable   woman if I remember correctly where it starts in  and it's not con when you start in the wound it's   not considered a flashback if you start in the  childhood wound and then you cut to 25 years later   then you give us that peace that we need without  having to go to a flashback you're in real time   when the wound happens then there was a transition  so in an honorable woman we see a little girl   a little boy their father they sit down to this  formal dinner at the shishi place and the waiter   suddenly stabs the father and we see the blood  go on the little girl and then we cut to Maggie   gyllenhal in her 20s in the same place that she  was when her father was killed and M the parallel   of what led to her father's life and a choice that  she was making in the series setup was linked so   by literally giving us that page and a half two  pages you make it we're in like you're like I   want to be a part of this character character's  Pursuit I want to know how does a character move   Beyond a trauma like that without having to and  then it it did go into a double narrative where   you understood a different point in time and  how it paralleled what was going on with the   present plot and there was tremendous value  because of the multi-dimensions Jen I believe   you like to boil down story structure into four  parts trigger dilemma choice and pursuit I I've   had so many different components of the looking  at story so it's all about different angles so   yes that is one formula that I've used and I've  also used the idea of another four points that   I've used is the idea of bigus feere dream and  the trigger event and the Dilemma and so looking   at how those things affect story we always hear  about threea structure yes why do you break story   into four parts I I am always seeking Story tools  so I analyze story in the Brilliance of what is   being done right now in film and in streaming I  am always looking for tools and how do I break   it down in a way the the writer understands and  of course obviously when you look at the threea   structure you're also looking at act two is in  two parts so you're essentially looking at four   parts of the story so and I think that there are  you never know like what comes through you where   you hit these ala moments when you're watching  story and you're like all right these are the   points that work I remember recently I was looking  for components key points that take us into voice   and I read a pilot where the voice was so clear  and I hit the Ala moment of looking at the concept   the main conflict and how the protagonist feels  about that concept conflict and when I looked at   those and in the title in this case of this pilot  was the title the concept the main conflict and   the characters expression of how they felt that  for me was like all right this is voice this is   what voice is we know why the writer is telling  the story through understanding these connecting   points and we feel the voice of the writer  through the central character and how that   Central character feels about the main conflict  and so voice doesn't necessarily mean first person   narrative it could be told third person and we can  still feel a strong voice oh absolutely absolutely   there are so I yes there are voice is felt in so  many different ways and in voice even you can feel   you can feel voice in the action lines you can  feel it you know I've seen Writers Do Pros in   the action lines where you have an inanimate  object have a personality trait and suddenly   you're bringing an inanimate object to life where  the audience can feel it voice is there versus   whether it's the third person whether it's the  first person understanding something in the depth   of the character that gives you a sense of why the  writer is writing the story and what is this story   really about so like in Wednesday Adams the hand  yes has its own voice and own exactly the hand   is symbolic of so much that show I and I've only  seen a few episodes but that show is so brilliant   it is because I was trying to think I thought all  right like the film top gun Maverick you have a   built-in audience because we knew so first going  into Wednesday you you are looking in you have a   builtin audience from The Adams Family family  then you're you're grounding it with the idea   of a character who feels like an outcast going  to a boarding school for outcasts and continues   to feel on the outside looking in and that is so  encompassing so much of what's going on in the   pandemic that I feel like it's hitting a note and  because we feel like we know that character but we   don't know this character at the depth that this  show is bringing us into this character so that   it has an immediate audience find following as  well as I think old generation and New Generation   finding a value in the story and and everything  that's going on in the world making us feel that   value and then you look at top gun Maverick and  you're like all right everybody saw the first   Top Gun and you are we are all in that wound  I mean we felt the wound with what happens to   Goose in that movie so that is something that has  stayed with us and then you have this film which   is phenomenal take us into going beyond that  through Goose's son and Maverick being put in   a new dilemma where the past since we were all in  it is haunting him and affecting choice in the new   so that was an incredible way to look at how do I  get an audience by finding an audience who knows   the wound because and even if they miss that movie  is still going to find fulfillment from looking at   this but chances are most people have seen the  first movie before going into the second movie   so so I look at both those projects and I I I look  in awe at how the thinking went into and how the   outcome is is amazing is threea story structure  a rule that you can break it is it is you it is   it's not a rule that anyone recommends breaking it  is there to help you when I look at rule breaking   with writers I look at certainly I feel like in  streaming rules are being broken all over the   place they're being broken or in film with Aaron  sorin or they're being broken by seasoned writers   you know when when you have a seasoned writer  break a rule because of the confidence they have   in understanding story and transformation and the  Arc of growth and story is coming through them in   a way that maybe doesn't adhere to 3A or what  it's supposed to be there's a there's a value   as long as a writer knows what they're doing and  and the the threea structure is has a purpose the   threea structure works however there are so many  brilliant things being done and said that could   be turning it on on its head a little bit here  and there and some of it is working and some of I   would say the majority of it is failing but there  are certain moments that are working because of   the seasoned writer or even if the writer isn't  seasoned but they have something to say that we   feel rules can be broken what is a scene a scene  is like one step toward the bigger picture so in   the scene you're looking at who wants what and  what is getting in the way who wants what what   is getting in the way how do you create the small  piece of the bigger puzzle through looking at the   scene and also understanding what is the conflict  in the scene is a struggle that I see a lot of   writers go through you often will find scenes  that have no conflict and you have no sense of   who wants what and what is getting in the way so  by simply understanding the scene as a part of the   greater picture and how you are creating a step  toward an outcome while escalating the conflict   is an important part of seamwork what happens in  a good scene a good scene is a strategic approach   to how does the scene serve the purpose of  advancing the external plot as well as the   internal with the character development so a good  scene brings us into the personal so that we feel   the personal as well as understanding how it's  a step in the external plot what do a lot of new   writers get wrong when they write scenes I would  say the biggest thing that I see writers get wrong   with certain scenes is they forget that there I  remember I Came Upon three things that I thought   about should be in the scene and the idea is the  desire the conflict and the the conflict being the   flaw so so when so you're looking at the want  the conflict and the why as a part of a scene   and when you have a scene where we lose sight of  what does the character want what is the main goal   and we and we don't feel it in the scene that is  probably one of the biggest mistakes I see made   when I get halfway through a script and I look at  a scene because I'm feeling lost because I lost   the why the want and the conflict with the flaw  so there's no there's no filler scenes in movies   where those elements don't exist within each one  like there has to be that to move the story along   there's value if there's that I think that you can  as we talked about rule breaking I think you can   always find a way to it like voice trumps a lot of  the rules if we feel the voice in a scene and yet   there is one of the three components I mentioned  missing that the voice can make a difference and   if we understand how that scene is a part of the  bigger puzzle and understand the intention of   the writer within that then again you can look at  rules and say the writer was able to communicate   a message without having to have specific things  you look at let's say sideways I know it's goes a   few years back but it seems like in every scene  miles is is in a dilemma with himself really   because he feels so inadequate whether he wants to  blame others for it but he he's always it's some   things relates to that he's being slided somehow  yes well that's because of the flaw work and the   flaw that we feel stemming from the wound that  we're feeling a part of it from the beginning   and how there there's an escalation of that but  also not feeling in that movie that there's a   full understanding of the want in a way that is  transformative with the character like looking at   the want and going all right what specifically  does this character want and how the sideway   Pursuit is bringing the character to that point  in that character you if I remember correctly and   it's God it's been so long since I've seen that  film but that film really resonated certainly from   someone who's been through divorce someone who  knows what pain looks like and what the healing   process looks like I feel like that was a film  that that everyone identified with and certainly   the whole Mero aspect of the wine industry and  all that like it stays with you and you remember   that character because of of the wound in the flaw  work and and looking at the transformation within   it that story has stayed with me so so that that  is that is a good example of of looking at at it   in the way that you're talking about right because  it seems like there were no really useless scenes   in that film whatsoever everything set something  up where Miles was going to somehow feel badly   about himself yes and luckily he had this other  component which was the Thomas Hayden Church   character who felt so incredible about himself to  remind him of how how low he was so it was there   was always this tension of here was this person  on a pedestal and here was Miles yes and it was it   was a wonderful and what you tapped into that's so  good there is polarity when you have polarity in   story and you have one character who's weak where  the other is strong and vice versa then again   that's something very Universal in life polarity  is another thing for me like dilemma where there   was this massive Aha and sideways is an excellent  example of looking at how polarity adds so much   depth to story and to character transformation  what does it mean to start a scene late and leave   early to start a scene late means your audience  could feel stuck with how the scene is fitting   into the overall picture and to end it early there  is is a term called the button of a scene where   we feel the button at the end of the scene that's  in the overall meaning of of the story so you you   also want to look at scenes as in another respect  that I thought about in in talking about this is   your scenes should always set up where your  character is going to next so another mistake   that writers make in scenes is we should never  arrive in a scene and not know how we got there   interesting I'm thinking of Sophie's Choice yes  and one of the many incredible scenes in the film   is where the Kevin Klein character arrives home  late yes and and finds her drinking with the the   neighbor and and just just sort of the the the the  tension in the room and so I guess we it's been   a little bit since I've seen it but just just how  those scenes were set up because there was always   like a weird implication of something we didn't  know totally what it was we didn't know what   Sophie was we knew some she was dealing with we  didn't know everything you didn't know everything   and that's where seamwork comes in handy as far as  the whole linking aspect I remember another thing   that I remember from Jeffrey kitchen was the idea  and I learned this at the beginning of my career   as an executive take a script from the back to  the front and make sure that every preceding   scene sets up the next scene and it was a great  tool so e like it still stands in my mind and when   I covered procedurals as a current executive it  particularly came into play of oh my gosh that I   get that that's something that stays and I and and  there there are so many scenes where you're like   how do we get here what is this I didn't feel the  setup and because you didn't feel the setup it's   because the writer didn't do the setup and and the  significance of setting up where the characters   going next or having a puzzle as you're mentioning  that we understand how it fits the greater picture   and if we don't understand then that comes down  to the writing and even for time lapses let's say   I realize every scene is usually involves a time  lapse but like a major yearly or decade time lapse   ter how are we how are we playing with the scene  and that or tying them together I think the time   lapses are interruptive like the flashback so  you need to know when you are going to have a   time lapse how that affects the overall goal like  if in the middle of a script you have a 10-year   jump then you're going well how does that affect  the initial goal I remember there was a show that   I think in editing they probably shifted it if if  if I remember correctly I think I read an article   on it there was a show called the night manager  with Hugh Lori where they did do in the middle   of the pilot episode they did a time Jump however  the rule the the goal remained the same because   the goal still had to do with bringing the arm  stealer down so that that was a time Jump that   worked so I always think when you're doing time  jumps is it needs to have a strategy just like   your Arc of growth has a strategy just like your  story arc has a strategy your time Jump can't take   us out of where we feel the main plot is going we  need to understand how the time Jump factors in   to the goal what's the difference between the  main character wound and flaw they're they're   interconnected they the wound and the flaw is  interconnected something that I recognized with   story was the flaw is the story of the wound and  with that recognition I saw how strategy wise a   lot of stories are starting with the flaw in its  shining Glory the value in starting with the flaw   is that you are curious about the wound you don't  have the answer to what the wound is but you are   curious why is the character the way they are and  then by the climax we're getting a fuller view of   the wound so the difference is the wound is what  happens to the character that creates the void the   flaw is how we see it come out how the character  is escaping the wound through distraction through   distractive Behavior with the flaw right because  if I think back to Emily the criminal she talked   about living with her grandmother yes so it hints  that something she wasn't raised by her parents   yes so we knew something right yes so we don't  totally know yes but we're wondering you know why   did she have these series of events that happened  and then I think it doesn't come out right away   so again you're it keeps you hooked it's the  puzzle and knowing how to strategize the puzzle   is everything and and writers need to recognize  that it's all a journey the same thing like when   you think about the transformation with falling  in love how when we first fall in love we don't   know enough about romantic love to know how to be  to know exactly what and we're in this continuous   learning process and and it it is the same thing  with the idea of this transformation where we   are you don't just know what to do with story you  don't just know oh this is how I'm going to break   it up and this is what the strategy is the more  that you study Story the more that you live Story   the more that you feel story your mind starts to  see it in a depth that you never knew was possible   until you get there and what's great is when you  talk about falling in love so many characters I'm   just thinking back to like swingers or or any  Christmas movie where it's like someone's been   jilted or they've been quote unquote abandoned no  one's calling yes and in in obsessing over that   person they then meet someone new yes who then  later on it pays off where that abandoner calls   and they don't need them anymore exact that's  exactly right it it is all in the transformation   and when we look at our life and like in my own  personal Arc I look at when I went through two   defining moments that sold my book storyline  finding gold in your life story and change your   story change your life it had to do with a long  relationship that ended in a short marriage early   on in life and then a TR a career trajectory that  was interrupted and in looking at if those two   moments hadn't happened I wouldn't have found what  I view as the love of my life for the last nine   years I wouldn't have met him unless those two  negative things happened in my life so I think   the the object of story is to teach people when  bad things happen there is a greater purpose as it   links to the healing of the earlier wound and as  it links to the overall growth in the life process   and because so many of us in life when we're in  the heat of our All Is Lost moments aren't ready   for that awareness story is continuously making  us conscious of that awareness and do you think   that in a good story that that All Is Lost moment  has to then resurface later on down the line once   things are quote unquote better for the character  to really test them I don't think always I think   it works tremendously if it's done well I think  always would make story too formulaic and too   predictable so I think if it's done in a creative  way where we see the Dilemma in a different light   now that the character has done the emotional  work through the action obstacle stake sequence   and at the climax you're at a place of did they  or didn't they come into the transformation   through the recognition of the flaw then yes so  looking at that does every protagonist need a   goal absolutely if there's one thing in story you  just nailed the most important thing in Story the   goal is everything the the external goal as well  as the internal goal the understanding of the want   versus the need and the recognition that often the  character wants something externally that isn't in   the transformed thinking of the mindset things  that we talked about with the idea of survival   mindset intuitive mindset and intellectual mindset  so the goal is the goal is your if you don't know   what the character wants the story doesn't work  and knowing that is the character going to get   what they want externally or are they going to  get it internally is what keeps the audience   interested in the story do you ever say to writers  I feel like the goal for your character the stakes   need to be risen it's not it's not not important  enough but it's just it doesn't seem like it would   would be sensible for most people all the time  Stakes is something the dream is a aha moment that   I had in my study of story when you set the dream  up at the beginning the dream sets up the stakes   when we know what the character wants and why they  want it through the dream then we get a glimpse of   the internal and the external Stak so the dream is  a pivotal tool in the setup that can make all the   difference in the world with feeling the stakes  so is that something that you see sometimes with   new writers that their goal it's too small small  of a goal you need to really like up the ante yes   and that goes into the idea of what a question  I ask all the time is what is the worst that   can happen if the goal is not achieved and that  means that if the answer is they could you know   Miss going on a date or they could something so  small that in the bigger scale of things doesn't   feel like a life and death type of scenario  then it's not working do you ever recommend   people do like a Q&A with their character yes I  do in story therapy that's interesting you ask   that question excellent question the in story  therapy I have a whole set of questions that   I give writers that is the idea of understanding  the character's awareness of what's holding them   back of what happened in the past of what do they  want and getting to know your character by having   this type of interview with your character and  then too it seems like then the characters would   really come out more if you're if you're doing  this like interview yes with your character it   seems like you would you would it would become  more and more real to you oh yeah the I think   the writer knowing the character and feeling the  character from the inside is so important with how   the audience is going to experience the character  something I recognize that a lot of Writers Do Is   they give the wound to the wrong character so  we'll end up knowing more about a supporting   character then we will about the central character  and when that happens then we're going what do we   know about the central character why don't we  feel the same type of pull and we start to go   why isn't it the other character story since the  other character has more to lose with the stakes   because we know their wound another thing that I'm  seeing a lot of stories do which is fantastic is   they are developing the wound for the antagonist  in more depth than they have and as long as the   protagonist we feel their wound in at a high level  and you parallel so you have a strategy with the   wound of the antagonist then it can work really  well is there a danger in the writer identifying   too much with the protagonist because it's like  too precious to them if they if the lines are   blurred and it's like well essentially this is  really me is there a danger in that yes because of   exactly what you might think when the character is  too much like them and they feel like I wouldn't   do that yet dramatically it doesn't work in the  story and that that has to do with like writers   who are telling story from an autobiographical  angle versus an angle of emotional truth when   they're telling a story from an autobiographical  angle they get stuck on the idea of well that   didn't happen well that didn't happen without  recognizing that life doesn't happen in dramatic   structure is there a way to avoid writing on the-  nose dialogue yes there with dialogue obviously   the best thing you can do with dialogue is  recognize when you go out and you listen to   conversation people do not speak and complete  sentences and you record or you think about how   are people speaking in a way that feels authentic  and dialogue also reveals so much about things   like character traits and flaws and life phases so  you want to think about things like where is this   character in their life and when I look at the  life process is my dialogue reflective of where   this character is is my dialogue reflective  of the want is my dialogue reflective of the   conflict that the character might feel internally  is my dialogue reflective you always want to think   something in scene work you always want to think  of is the charact is the scene revealing character   while advancing plot how do you write emotion  without stating emotion that's a great question   emotion all comes down to the setup of things  like the dream the biggest fear the audience   feeling the void so when you enter the story you  want to think about the idea of what is making   the character stuck when we enter the story and  the feeling of what is making the character stuck   when we enter the story goes into the setup of the  emotional Arc so you're not hitting on the head   what the emotion is is instead you're giving us a  sense through subtext of the void and then you're   escalating the emotional Arc through understanding  what is getting in the way with the void and how   the pursuit can help the character process the  past so that they can move toward the future goal   I'm thinking too about want how do you how do you  state want in dialogue like I'm thinking back to   the to the White Lotus yes and the Jennifer  coolage character has found this this young   woman who will just sort of listen to her and be  her sounding board but she's also manipulating   her yeah and it's revealed in these little tells  about the business oh I don't have to we'll talk   about that later right but she she throws it  out and then she takes it away again yes yes   the I think with dialogue the there's a value in  the subtext of the want like you're describing I   also think that the want is something that you can  hit on the nose with the character just declaring   I want blank and I I think that that I have seen  that done incredibly well where it's great for the   audience because you clear clearly know what the  character wants so there's a value in the subtext   as long as we don't miss the want and there is a  value in the dialogue sometimes defining the want   on the nose for the audience yeah so you could  see both wants were very clear the the Jennifer   coolage character wanted to be needed and then  the other woman was hoping to make get out of   this sort of Hotel treadmill of working you know  behind the scenes with these these clients and so   both both wants are very present in like the  dinner conversation they I think they'd gone   out to dinner yes and yeah and you could see in  those wants and that that's a great thing to to   illustrate you can see in the wants of those two  characters that it has to with Jenifer coolage   it has to do with what's making her stuck and  how the dream in being in business with the   other woman could be an answer for her and for The  Other Woman Jennifer's being stuck and needing to   go in a direction could be an advantage for her so  when you look at the want I always say when you're   setting up co-protagonist we need to understand  how one is the answer to the other's dilemma   and that comes down to want like when you look at  the show hacks and you have a sense of Deborah's   character and the idea of her being in the Life  phase where work is stopping because of her age   and you contrast that with a younger character  who's asked to help punch up her Jokes which   could help her dilemma and then with the younger  character you also have work is stopping because   of something she said on Twitter that caused her  career that was blossoming to suddenly stop so   you have two characters who their wants are in  connection and they are the answer to the others   dilemma what should a writer know about monologues  or should a writer of try to avoid monologues in   their film or or TV or play I love that question  I think that so many Story Experts will say no   more than four to five lines of dialogue so of  course when you hit a monologue You're Going way   over that if the monologue serves the intention  of the story there is value in the monologue when   you look at Aaron sorin who could have a full  page or two pages worth then and it serves the   story in such a brilliant way that brings you to a  sense of depth and understanding of the character   there's a value however just know that the rule  of thumb is you should have four to five lines   of dialogue so the value of brevity the value I  often tell writers you want to look at these big   huge chunks of dialogue and figure out how you can  say the same thing in less words what is the focal   point of the intention and how can you hit the  same depth because the consequence of too many   words is you lose the focal point certainly in  comedy when you're looking at Cadence and you're   looking at the Cadence when you have over three  to four lines of dialogue you lose that Cadence   the joke gets buried because there are so many  words so so there's a value in the monologue if   it serves the intention but there's also a value  in can you say something with the same amount of   depth without so many words yeah I'm thinking  one one place and this is an old reference but   say anything with John qack and where he goes  on this sort of tiate about he doesn't want to   you know produce anything you know you see this  guy's like anti-corporate anti-consumerism like   he he shows that he's this this is who he is in  his monologue yes you know and here he's got this   this woman that he's in love with who's from like  more of a wealthy family serves right so it shows   the PO incredibly well that's great example that  is done incredibly well because it serves the   story and the character and the audience because  it brings them into that desire right so it shows   it shows kind of who he is it's very limited and  what he wants to do there's not a lot of room but   he knows he likes being with her but there you  know they kind of come from these Opposite Worlds   and yes and the polarity going into that yeah what  is the All Is Lost moment the All Is Lost moment   is when the character is as far away as possible  from achieving the goal the significance of the   All Is Lost moment is in hitting rock bottom  the character has an epiphany and the Epiphany   is the recognition of the flaw that is holding  them back then the connection to the character   and the action that they take at the top of the  last act that leads to the achievement of the goal   should reflect the consciousness of the flaw and  acknowledgment or the denial of the flaw with the   choice that is made that leads to the resolution  so the All Is Lost moment is so important in   getting the character to change yes it it in  hitting rock bottom it again universally we all   hit our Rock Bottom moments we all hit our moments  where they say each person has at least three to   four of these moments in life so these are moments  that are identifiable and when the audience is   watching the character hit rock bottom they're  identifying with what that is and then when they   see the character's awareness become conscious  of the flaw then they look at their own lives and   think about could I make better choices that could  lead me to a stronger outcome by acknowledging the   flaw so when we see in story all the time when  it's done well then we get empowered in our own   lives of how can transform our all as lost moments  into growth opportunity so that's interesting so   you say that most people will hit three or four  all his lost moments in life does it have anything   to do with age or financial status or anything it  it doesn't because I have so many people who will   say to me are Young Writers not ready when when  they're writing and I said it all depends on what   happen happens in their life if you have a young  writer whose parent died when they were 10 they   become old souls so those are the types of moments  certainly with us going through what we all went   through with the idea of black lives matter and  US feeling that connection with characters that   are going through so much loss that these are life  defining moments that it's not because they're 25   or they their midlife or they're old it's because  these are things that are happening to them in   the moment that could be at any life point in any  life phase so these defining moments are are like   turning points that happen in our life and they  can happen at any time and I think are the f of   life that we're in determines how our character  will evolve from the choices we make because of   what happened to us does the All Is Lost moment  usually result from a goal fail like a failure   of a goal the all is sa moment is like your final  and another thing to think about with the all's   lost moment it should always be due to an action  that the character takes toward the goal versus   something that happens to them so you always want  to think of yes you number one it's so important   that you feel the goal in the All Is Lost moment  that you feel that the character is as far away   as possible from that achievement in that they  are being active and it's kind of like in life   like you hit a brick wall so many times before  you start to recognize that's not the way to do   it your all is lo lost moment is serving the same  purpose it's telling you your flawed behavior is   getting in the way of your dream and unless you  do something to change by becoming a more aware   and conscious you are not going to have the same  outcome with the resolution as you will if you   acknowledge what's going on with the flaw and  what's holding you back and is the All Is Lost   moment the same as the Dark Night of the soul  in film there I have like say for example in a   a film like Avatar you have the All Is Lost moment  and The Dark Knight of the soul is two separate   moments in many films they are one and the same  so I think it all depends on the structure of   the film I think there are are plenty of writers  where they're seasoned writers who know how to   serve both but in both are part of the same type  of sequence which is something that is bringing   the character aware of what is holding them back  as it links to the dream and the goal how long   does the All Is Lost moment last in a story The  all is well it depends on the story but it's a it   is quick I it is something where now the all is  LW sequence could be something depending on the   story that could feel like it's building from  the midpoint on but ideally you're looking for   the the moment itself is something where we feel  that due to the action taken they hit the All Is   Lost moment and this is something that quickly  happens where they they feel at wi end as far as   the goal what if the character refuses to change  then you're having a tragedy then that that brings   you into to the idea of a film that is a tragedy  because the character resists the acknowledgment   of the flaw do you see that with a lot of writers  do they want their characters to change I see   resistance for the idea that what we've talked  about earlier is that so many people in their   lives it takes so much before they're willing to  change so so however I feel like when you look   at the idea of change everything's incremental  like you you look at a character who you say no   they'll never change like when you look at for  example when you look at the comedy and they say   in comedy the character doesn't change yet because  now certainly in streaming when you have the half   hour drama then you're taking on the component  of the transformation where the character does   change and I even think many comedies are also now  recognizing the value of incremental change even   if it's not a massive change but a small change  in the awareness of the character how many Pilots   have you helped writer cell right now I am at  105 106 is in action and I also just heard about   another one that would make it 107 wow these are  TV Pilots that for streaming or also Network both   both okay great both and so writers are aware like  when you sell a pilot it doesn't mean it goes to   series it means you're selling a pilot so I've  had I think seven shows now go to Series where   they get picked up and they're on the air so that  is a ratio that's very important for writers to be   aware of you can sell a pilot but so many Pilots  are bought per season and the percentage that get   to series that get picked up is a much smaller  number and when I open my business my whole focal   point as a consultant was the recognition that  the TV pilot is everything in taking a non-working   writer into being a working writer or in an  unrepresented writer to a represented writer so my   whole focus when I started my business was how do  I demystify the pilot writing process so writers   know how to write a script that will sell because  having that recognition is what will lead to an   outcome cuz scripts need to hit it out of the  ballpark in order for something to sell in order   for a writer to staff what are a few things that  new writers get wrong about selling a pilot in   addition to they'll be bought but not necessarily  be made which is news to me I would say some of   the things they do wrong is the strategy of the  Season Arc so the season Arc and the central   conflict for the character in that they are torn  in two different directions is everything to the   longevity of the show and I think the mistake  that writers make is they're so focused on the   pilot episode without the recognition of are they  building a big enough well to where we can see one   season or several seasons of Story coming from  the concept so is it just that they don't have   room for dilemma or is it just too small of an  idea what what would stop someone from having   something that had a big enough Arc I think the  well what stops someone from having a big enough   Arc it has to do with also moving the mindset  of a feature writer beginning metal end to a TV   writer which is you are bookending your pilot with  with a strategy that is setting up season one so   you you have your series Arc that is book ending  and setting up season 1 then if the strategy of   the pilot Arc is done correctly the pilot Arc  is one step toward the season one question so   by the end of the pilot we should should have a  very clear sense of what is the internal and the   external question that is driving season one and  that's how you build a a season Arc for example an   old show that more people know I the split that  I watched recently has probably one of the best   season Arc setups of any show I've seen because  it creates three seasons BAS based on the setup   of the father who was gone for 30 years the elest  daughter who has a secret that could cost her her   marriage and the The Well of story that's coming  from a family law practice that has to do with   family law and domestic disruption so those three  components bring in the idea of story and those   three components built three seasons of story and  then a show like Homeland the older show that I   was mentioning you look at the Brilliance of the  season one setup with the idea of is Brody the   prisoner of war that turned or isn't he and  every episode is yes no yes know toward the   season one question how does a writer get in the  room with the right people to pitch a television   show there lies the mystery of so much the writer  should first focus on the writing so many writers   will get focused on how do I get in a room and  the thing is if the writing is where it needs   to be and hits it out of the ballpark you will get  into the room and a way I've seen every writer has   a different Journey for how that happens you can  have writers who enter all the competitions and   enter some of the more well-known competitions and  hit at the finalist or semi-finalist or above and   you and they'll start to get recognition within  the community because of how they're performing   in competitions you I've seen writers I always  with my writers tell them if you hit semifinals   or above in a competition let me know and I  will give you a shout out on all of my social   media because I have a lot of Executives agents  managers on my social media so my feeling is if   I see someone who's getting Great accomplishments  in the competition World it means that something   is working so that's one channel then you have  the channel of the writing programs that are at   the studio and networks that are these diversity  programs or just writing fellowships where the   intention of the program is to identify out of  sometimes 2 to 3,000 submissions what are the top   eight writers that are at a level that they could  be a working writer and then to help facilitate   that outcome then you also have the channel of  just the pure strength of the writing that you   do the work to get it in the right hands and that  could involve working as a writer's assistant and   absorbing and being a sponge and utilizing your  relationships when you know your script is in   a strong enough place to get you to an outcome  so it all comes down to the script it all comes   down down to knowing that you don't want to get  into a room until your script is at a level that   could sell also knowing that whatever happens  in that room if you land in the room too early   and you're not ready there's something to learn  from that as well does that happen a lot oh yeah   yes oh yes I mean you have development Executives  that are you know listening to so many pitches a   day that you can I always I you know writers have  to recognize that you can go into a room and feel   like you don't have an audience because you have a  blank look on the development executive face which   happens a lot purposely because they don't want to  give you a sense of what what's going on inside or   you can have someone who has a bazillion fires  that they're putting out that their attention   isn't quite there and I always tell writers you  have the power to read a room and know when you   need to grab their attention and know when you  are losing their attention how to bring it back so   never feel like when you're losing the room that  there is no way to bring it back because you can   bring it back and always in your mind with your  pitch have an idea of all right a a common place   that you lose a room when you're pitching is in  the character descriptions and if you don't give   the log line and you're giving this rambling view  of the characters and the the people hearing your   pitch are trying to think of the framework of who  is significant in what way and why you're losing   them so then you can help save yourself by if you  recognize you never gave the log line give the log   line that that helps like brings it back on on  track so in there's value in all of it like the   failure in pitching brings knowledge and every  working writer has a string of failures behind   them that gets them to where they need to be does  this writer have to live in the greater LA area it   used to be yes it used to be with without a doubt  in television you had to live in LA it since the   pandemic it has broadened into you have writers  living all over the world and the value is you   can get writers who are in different places and  are at a very high level of talent by not having   them have to be in Los Los Angeles so I have seen  writers live in other places at this point in the   entertainment industry and succeed but the rule  of thumb for television is you should be in Los   Angeles unless if for example if you are a known  feature writer that could change everything if you   are a known feature writer working in different  places and you are making the transition into   television or streaming and are people are aware  of your films then that can change everything to   I I know a gentleman who did a thesis who his  film became huge in all of the festivals his   film became huge and he never had to start at the  bottom of Television because his films did his   film did as well as it did in the festival circuit  it had clout in television and he literally like   you know started with selling a pilot and started  at the top and never moved to LA but that's a   rarity that's a rarity that is a rarity you have  in LA the value of being an LA is that you are   soaking in the business you are around people  who share your passion you're around the work   and when you're around the work then you are in  an a situation where you can create opportunity   through getting your work out there so there there  is a tremendous value in living here for writers   that live other places I often advise don't make  the move until you have three to four very strong   scripts in your portfolio then you are making the  move with a strategy that could serve you and get   you to your goal quicker do you think stories  like the one you just told about this gentleman   who wrote a feature film that did so well or  others we've heard you know there's there's   countless names where you know million dollars  right off the bat it it inspires writers or it   actually hinders them because they think I'll  be the next one and it actually could stop them   from getting a project made because they think  it's so they could just jump cut I think it does   both I agree I think that when you have these huge  success stories just like when you hear it was an   overnight success and you don't count the 10 years  that went into that overnight success and writer's   perception of the million dollar deal happening to  what feels like a newer writer without having any   sense of all the work that went into it before  that outcome happened so I I think the success   of others I writing is like yoga you have to not  compare your journey to anyone else but your own   and the idea of you have to continuously be doing  the work to be the best writer that you can be and   somebody else having success or getting further  than you should not be something that should entertainment business it happens every day so  anyone that gets stuck in the victim role of of   it's not going to happen for me that is going  to mean that it chances are it won't happen to   you because you have to believe in your talent  and your gift in order for the outcome to happen   and people who are getting these million doll  deals are people who are doing the emotional   work in that belief as well as the work on the  script and that overall belief is getting them   to that outcome and then there's also the  flip side of sort of this aggressive like   they can't surpass me I mean some people are  just hardwired differently some people are okay   with other people being you know ahead of them  so to speak on the on the social strata people   they cannot handle any type of rivalry like that  and I think that fuels certain people too and it   might actually work for them I agree and I always  fear as a as a former executive I always fear the   idea of the envy and the jealousy of the more  higher level writers being frightened of lower   level writers that are showing True Value and  that's why I think it's so important that all   Writers Do the emotional work and you can have  a lower level writer and I've seen this happen   that has a tremendous voice that threatens  the upper level writers so they won't get   the positive feedback that they need to get to  that higher level or they will feel stunted at   a time when they should be celebrated so  that comes down to know your voice know   your gift believe and don't get affected by what  others say or think follow your own trajectory.

Channel: Film Courage

Views: 7,871

Keywords: jen grisanti, writing, author, change your story change your life, screenwriting, screenwriters, writing consultant, helping writers, story consultant, story line, tv writing tool kit, writers on the verge, aaron spelling, current programs executive, filmcourage, film courage, interview, women in film

Id: tQkI9jGXbjs

Length: 129min 14sec (7754 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 11 2024