How To Start An Instrument Approach: Boldmethod LIVE

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] do [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] hi good night my name is alex udris co-founder of bold method and welcome to our very first bold method live ifr episode we're going to be doing these every other week so bi-weekly kind of like a flight review except by weeks and tonight's focus is on how to start an instrument approach and i know this seems super basic you kind of assume it's easy you're going to get vectors you're going to pick an initial approach fix but the reality is selecting the way to start the approach you know figuring out the right kind of fix or anticipating what atc is going to do it's really kind of the most important part because it sets you up for everything to come now if you're in training getting your instrument rating chances are you're flying around with the same iis over and over and over but as you start flying the instrument world and cross countries choosing ifs becomes much bigger it's not just choosing one that's close to you it's anticipating what atc is going to do and of course when i started to fly it was a six pack in fact my very first flight in imc had two vors one had an ils localizer on it no dme i didn't have gps it did not have loren i did not have dme i took a flight from grand forks to fargo in a 172 with two vors one of which could pick up the ils and i used cross radials to figure out where i was in the victoria i just wanted to try it i could tell you that after that i loved having dme but today of course you've got distance information all the time most ifr aircraft are are nav equipped the interesting thing about that is it's starting to make choosing and flying approach a little bit more complicated because you're not just going to go to an iaf or get vectors to final okay so tonight we're going to talk about we're going to start the most common and the work towards the least common we're going to start with terminal areas where you typically expect vectors to final and we're going to talk about why loading vectors to final if you're using an rnf system is a bad way to select and load an approach from there we're going to look at initial approach fixes and how to pick the right iaf and what to think about with feeder routes as you're picking an iaf and we'll also take a look at whether a procedure turn is required or not we're not going to go into detail on procedure turns today that's a whole other topic but i know trying to figure out if you're supposed to do a pt can be pretty confusing so we'll take a look at some cues to tell you whether you are or aren't supposed to do a procedure turn and then finally we're going to finish with some kind of odd situations where atc sends you to a fix somewhere in between final and initial and how to make sure you're set up and what to expect when they do that so okay so first of all my best piece of advice by the way uh someone asked less time if i'm telestrating if i'm using a teleprompter i'm not i've got some note cards here so you may see me look at them um but i do have this little ipad here that i'll put up on screen i call it the telestrator so if i if i go to that it's kind of like one of those sports things if you're watching a replay but my first bit of advice when it comes to flying in the ifr system when you enter transition into the terminal area always choose an initial approach fix even if you're pretty sure you're like there is zero chance of getting an iaf i know i'm going to get a vector to final still load an initial approach fix and the reason for that is as rnev kind of permeates the air traffic control national aerospace system we're designing procedures so that controllers don't have to vector you to final in a busy terminal environment you know when we had nab aids vors that was really really tough if that was your only option you could not put vors all over a terminal area to guide aircraft in to a final approach but now that we've got rnp and rnav stars the arrivals everywhere you look at a major terminal area like denver now we have fixes and routes so that the airplanes transition automatically into final approach and so even though dia great example is a it's a busy airport you don't always get vectors to final in fact when the weather goes bad oftentimes everybody's coming in on arrival and atc is managing their speed and altitude for separation and they're just flying a procedure right on the final so let's take a look we'll switch over here to four flight i got four flight up and i know most of us aren't flying this this is an airline procedure their turbine procedure at least the pearl two aren't have arrival if you look at it it does say if you look in the notes it says turbojet aircraft only which is not our sr-22 it's not a turboprop it's just turbocharged but still this is a great example of where the national airspace system is going this is an entirely arnav-based arrival and if you look at it you're going to end up starting i'm going to draw this on you start maybe somewhere out here coming in along this route okay there we go sorry about that we're going to come in along this route here to dand and then from dan we're going to proceed inbound to rocks and pearl and if you're given this procedure you can see that there's speed restrictions on your way in and then all the ways it dumps you out a pearl if you get a decent view there's altitude the entire point behind this procedure is to separate aircraft by air speed so that atc has them pre-staged and separated and they can transition smoothly into an approach okay so if we look at this we finish this arrival at pearl and where do we go from there well let's take a look at the ils runway three five right cat one or cat two and three in denver and i know again most of us aren't gonna shoot this procedure but it's a good example of where the national airspace system is starting to go so if we looked at this left panel over here you can see pearl now right there that's the initial approach fix and then from there it's going to feed you into dory the initial fix and that lines you right up on final for the ils to runway three five right so this procedure that rnav arrival all the way into dia hopefully if the weather if there aren't thunderstorms and you can safely fly the entire route atc won't have to vet you of course perfect world you still end up getting a lot of vectors especially when it's visual but when they're using that ils you'll see a lot of aircraft on that arrival transitioning in okay so a lot of you're like yeah okay great that's an airline thing a turbine thing i don't fly a termite absolutely i don't fly a turbine either but i do fly into centennial and you might end up on the zombies centennial so we'll go ahead and take a look at that september centennial uses the zombies arrival it brings you in from the southwest and you'll notice it takes you through xpath to xb and then to ferpy and if we take a look at the r nav to runway 3 5 right at centennial you'll see xpath right here is the initial approach fix there's xb there's ferpy the initial fix so again this is a scenario at a general aviation airport where if you're coming in on the zombie's arrival you're set up to shoot the nav approach atc may not ever have to vector you and i think what you're going to find is the airspace system gets more complicated and as time moves on you're going to start to see more r rivals that funnel you right into an instrument approach so the reason i bring this up is just to think as you're transitioning into the terminal environment what's my clearance how are they routing me in does this dump me out in an iaf for a procedure that's in use at the airport and if that's the case load that procedure in choose that as your initial approach fix okay that being said vector to final is still probably the most common thing you're going to get in a terminal environment and normally people think okay get a vector to final simple enough i'll start the approach by hitting vector to final and normally that works out pretty well except for the times that it doesn't so what happens when you hit vector to final let's take a look i'm going to load up the aspen approach here we flew in here a couple years ago in fact if you watch our video in aspen um about landing or departing with no transponder this was the flight in but if you take a look they've got a localizer deemed but they do have and it's a circling procedure it's an echo but they do have an approach control service they've got a few initial approach fixes so we've got red table right here that's our initial approach fix and we've got ajax and on our route coming from denver you're typically routed over red table so that's the iaf that you would expect though oftentimes atc is going to give you a vector to final okay so what's the final approach fix here if you're unfamiliar with jepson plates the final approach fix is that maltese cross so you'll see it there deut is the final approach fix in this localizer this isn't an ils it's lateral nav only so doing is our final approach fix and if you look at it it's right here so the problem is if atc vectors you to final there are all these fixes there's jargo femzo okay then we get to deut okay and if you look there's kicker sorry i missed that one on the side so if you take a look at it in the plan view each one of those has an altitude step down okay every single one of those so if you look at it jargu that first fix we can go down after we cross at 12 9 then after a kicker to 12 3 then down after fimso to 11 7 then deut where we can go down to our minimum descent altitude for a category b airplane like the csr-22 10 020 feet that's a pretty high mda okay so let's take an example of what atc did with this we've got an animation to look at it so i'll open that up and here we are coming in on the arrival what you can see on the right side is the g1000 flight plan uh we're on the rockies 9 departure to red table dbl so you can see dbl right over here and then i've selected dbl as the initial approach fix and then from there it sequenced everything else in we'll switch our cdi's over to localizer to fly final but we've got rnav measuring the distance as we fly down so watch what happens as they set us up number three golf papa roger fly heading 260 vector localizer dna echo approach just gonna maintain one fourth out okay this seems we know that we've been given a vector to the approach so you would assume this is a great time to hit vectors to final but there's a problem what we know is if we do that it's going to cycle to deut and i'm not going to get distance from any of these fixes now i can do the math but the weather's bad we're in the mountains it's winter and bumpy i wouldn't exactly say that i want to do a lot of mental math right now i'd rather let my rnf system do what it's supposed to do and sequence correctly so i'm not going to touch anything i'm just going to let it sequence on its own and then we'll set it up more in a second november three golf pop a tournament setting two four zero decent maintain one three thousand okay so what you can see has happened is the gps has seen us pass red table and it's automatically picked up our route from sorry i'll circle that a little better from red table to jargo and so it is giving us correct distance from jargo that's helpful right here is where we end up in trouble the gps cycles to kicker and i still want my distance from jargo so we'll take a look what to do here in a second three golf pops five miles from jargo turn watch heading out one eight zero maintain one three thousand don't establish a localized declared localizer dm echo approach okay so atc has given us our clearance our headings and distances relative to jargo we know that's the fix they want us to cross as after we intercept the localizer so what i want to do now is just activate a segment that will take me to jargo one of the easiest ways to do that is to activate vector to final but watch what happens okay as expected i've lost all of my distance from ajax jargo kicker femzo the only place i'm getting distance from now is deut which really doesn't help me out so what i want to do is just activate the leg between ajax and jargo one of the most important things to know how to do on a gps is to activate the leg and on a g1000 i'm going to cursor myself up to it you'll see it here in a second i'm cursoring up right there and activate leg that's the leg i want boom okay so i'm going to rewind this just a second and what you can see has happened as soon as i did that now i've got that straight in final approach measured out by the gps of course i'm flying a localizer so i switch my cdi over to localizer for this part of the approach but now i've got good distance all the way along each one of those fixes and you can see as we fly in from jargo to fimso fimsoda deut and then deut all the way into cag my gps is giving me good distance which makes it easy to manage my step downs okay so the reason i want to bring that up most ilses or localizers don't have that many step downs but you will find them especially in areas of high terrain or if you're in an area where it's really really busy and they're kind of or flowing traffic above and below you and so one of the questions you always want to ask yourself before you punch activate vector to final is okay what is where is the final approach fix once they turn me on to that final approach course are there any fixes in the middle that i'm going to need to measure distance from and if there are know how to go back and activate the leg or just tab into your flight plan if that leg's already there and activate it learning how to activate a leg on your gps or rnav system is one of the most important features that you can have in fact if it cycles too early or you get you get turned off and you have to reset an approach you can just reactivate a past leg and you're all set back up to go so again when we talk about starting approach pick an initial approach fix know how to activate vector to final if you need it and then reactivate a leg so that you've got the right distance okay let's take a look um at a more common kind of approach and we'll take a look at the i or the localizer and telluride we'll look at a standard beginning the approach in an initial approach fix so telluride has a couple of uh different approaches actually before we go to telluride sorry let's jump into cortez because cortes gives us a really good example here of why we may not always want to go direct to an initial approach fix okay so let's take a look at cortez and the maps cortes is kind of on the southwestern colorado plains you can see it here that's cortez that's telluride and denver colorado springs and denver over here and one of the problems with cortez is this large madness area off to the northwest the winds favor runway 21 most of the time and so you're going to be making your approach to the southwest and as you enter the approach you're going to find oftentimes that you're coming over or around high terrain so let's take a look at the chart if you look at this they've got an rnav procedure rnav zulu to run away 2-1 and there's two initial approach fixes we have rema over here and we have tannery over here okay so if you look at the altitude at remay once you cross remain you can descend to 9100 feet from there the step downs are actually a little more aggressive than you think you go down to 8 500 on a basically 4 mile leg to pimui then from there to atemi you drop another 500 feet and then you take yourself all the way down to your usually lpv mda or uh sorry d a decision altitude of six thousand two hundred and fifteen feet the challenge with this procedure is crossing rema in an altitude that will let you actually get down to nine thousand one hundred feet and the reason for that is because if you're coming in direct pretty typical in our nav world you're coming in over the mountains and when you do that you're going to find that their minimum vectoring altitudes are incredibly high so you can see in this area right here it's roughly 15 000 feet and you've got to lose 15 000 feet you know and about or from 15 to 9 so six thousand feet maybe 13 miles that's roughly where you would be and in an airplane like an sr-22 turbo the problem that we run into is i can't keep the chts in the green if i try to make a descent coming out of the northwest so we did a video to show this and what i've got here is an animation a simulation and the atc calls and you can see what happens okay so let's pull up that video okay so this is what the gps is drawing for our flight plan we're coming in over the telluride mountains you can see we're on a leg to rema from there to o'kelly now here's the problem this is what we're actually going to fly think of turn anticipation okay and so right now we're at nineteen thousand feet descending to fifteen thousand feet is that angle gonna be too hard of an intercept for the you want me to battery out a little bit okay so this will work just fine first of all if atc asks you if an angle is going to work for you it means that they think that that turn is going to be really really steep and you should think about either getting a vector out to the side to get less of an intercept angle or less of a turn onto the initial segment or choosing a feeder route to help get yourself down but in this case we wanted to show how difficult it is so take a look as we continue in one 000. so now we're coming in we're about five miles from remain we've been given one four thousand we still from there we'll need to be able to get down to ninety percent above one one thousand fear the arnhem approach quarters airport okay we may enter above one one thousand cleared for the hour and a half zulu approach into cortez so here's the problem as we zoom in we're trying to make it from 14 down to 11 because that's where the mvas allowed us to descend and my next segment altitude is 9 100 feet there's no way the airplane's going to get down to 9 100 feet not safely and then the other problem is the gps with turn anticipation is basically drawn an s course which results in actually a very very short leg so the chances of even getting down to pimui's altitude is pretty much impossible and so on this approach what we discovered is there is no way to get yourself down to the final approach altitude you could not get down to your minimum published altitude atemi and so you were guaranteed a missed approach on this procedure so if we take a look at what we could have done what would have been a lot smarter is thinking about picking up the approach at one of these feeder fixes or maybe havou which is off to the side and that's something to think about when you're flying an instrument approach procedure into an area especially where you've got terrain and you've got an initial approach fix your goal is to figure out how to get down to that first segment altitude and keep in mind that atc's minimum vectoring altitude depending on where you're coming in from might end up with a fairly high crossing restriction which means that you can't get down to your initial segment altitude so again if you're coming up from somewhere that's high you've got a lot of terrain it makes sense to look for and find a feeder route because now you're on a published route it makes it a lot easier to make that descent okay the other thing that you can see there is that 90 degree turn results in a pretty aggressive s turn or a pretty aggressive turn anticipation onto the initial approach segment and in somewhere like cortez you end up with this s turn on to an intermediate segment makes makes it very hard to descend and so that brings up something people see oftentimes on initial approach fixes this initial approach fix is not authorized for victor xxx northwestbound or southwestbound so why does that happen well let's take a look at telluride there's two good examples on why an iaf may not be authorized okay we're going to start with a localizer to runway nine you can see here there is one initial approach fix in this case it is cones right here which is a vor if you're not familiar with the jepson plate this thin lined holding pattern that's a missed approach hold it it's not part of the actual initial approach procedure so it's not a procedure turn so normally what you do is you go to cones you go to codelow from there into zabgoo and they're in a sex up and you'd end up hopefully landing a telluride but you'll notice that there's a note down here procedure is not authorized for arrivals at cohn's vor on victor 382 northwestbound okay so let's take a look at that here we are coming in on victor 382 northwestbound and if you take a look at this turn you end up with this super sharp 145 degree turn from your course along the victor railway to cones to the initial segment so on a traditional navaid procedure the procedure designers can't give you a turn of more than 120 degrees this one's 145 and that's why it says procedure is not authorized for arrivals on etl or at etl vor on victor 382 northwest bound so as you watch it you can see the amount of turn you'd have to do it's a huge turn to get established on the inter the initial approach segment pretty much impossible that same thing is true when we look at rnav procedures except it's a 90 degree limitation as opposed to 120. so let's take a look at the rnav zulu same airport we're going into we're going into telluride and if you look at the notes here it says procedure is not authorized for arrivals at havewoo on victor 187 southeastbound so if you're looking at havou to fix out in the in-route structure if we're on the victor from there you can also see that have was depicted in the chart it's got a feeder route 1300 no pt but the turn from havewoo to etl is 99 degrees it exceeds that 90 degree limit so procedures designers want to design something where the turn would take less than that so you don't end up with as much turn anticipation and it makes it easier to get established on the segment and make your way in otherwise the turn is fairly difficult okay so that brings up the the point what do you do if you're arriving on a victor railway you look at your initial approach fix and it says procedure is not authorized well there's a couple things number one you can ask for some vectors you might end up with a higher altitude and a higher crossing restriction but at the end of the day it gets you an easier turn on you can also ask direct to an intermediate fix if you've got rnav these days in the rnav environment we're asking for directive fixes all the time so it's just something to anticipate as you're looking at an iaf you're looking where you are what kind of turn do i have and even if the turn doesn't say n a if you've got like an 89 degree turn or a 110 degree turn in a fairly short intermediate segment and you feel like you're task saturated talk to atc see if you can get something that is an easier turn onto that initial approach segment okay so that brings up procedure turns and whether procedure turns are required or not you saw in that feeder route it did say no pt so let's take a look at that we've got a couple different procedures here let's take a look at telluride i'm going to open it up in foreflight so this is a question we get all the time when i'm going to an initial approach fix how do i know if a procedure turn is required so first of all this rnav procedure does have a procedure turn it's the holding pattern right here and we have three different initial approach fixes and i had misspoke earlier havew is an initial approach fix so it's not a feeder route there it's an actual initial segment um you have one coming in from havu one coming in from eknoff one coming in from daeuk okay so if you look at this and then cones is an intermediate fix and an initial approach fix eknoff and have will are initial approach fixes deoc is just a feeder fix if you look at eknoff it says no pt havou says no pt this guy here doesn't say no pt and if you go direct to cones it also doesn't say no pt so a question we oftentimes get is if i'm direct to cones on a course that basically parallels or is the exact same as the holding pattern do i still need to do the procedure turn the answer is yes atsd's still going to expect you to fly one revolution in that holding pattern of course there is a solution and the best solution in that case is to ask for a straight in approach and it's something that we don't always think about but atc oftentimes can clear you for a straight in approach the problem is if you don't execute a procedure turn you may not end up at the right altitude that you need to make your next ascent gradient you might not end up you could end up off course you too great of a turn to make it on a course and if you execute a procedure trend that atc doesn't expect you could screw up spacing behind you so an example of a procedure here where it looks like you shouldn't have to do a procedure turn but they do require it is crescent city so the footage you saw on our way in in the morning crescent city it's got this segment right here from old jack lj's an initial approach fix and then you fly this segment right here to sitka and you can see there's a procedure turn here but what you'll notice is it doesn't say anywhere on here no pt this makes absolutely no sense at the end of the day you're already at 2400 feet you're already aligned with the 330 degree course and if you look at that holding pattern it's a 2400 foot holding pattern so it doesn't make any sense why you would actually need to fly the hold and lower procedure turn here at sitka but according to this chart it's required this is something that if you didn't want to fly this procedure turn you need to ask atc to clear you for a straight-in approach we've been trying to get an answer as to why that procedure turn is required no one seems to know they think maybe it's a charting error but until the chart was to add no pt there you're supposed to fly the procedure turn if you're flying from old jack to sitka okay let's take a look at terminal arrival areas because that's another sort of initial feeder area that oftentimes ends up being no procedure turn so we'll open up tillamook this is a standard t and if you look at the standard t we've got our base arrival areas here and our straight in so the goal is if you're coming from this area into ichi you'll go into ichi and you can see ichi is a no procedure turn you skip the hold of footage if you're coming in from this area you normally want to route to jekyth and again you're given an opt if you look at the straight in area we have two sectors here on the 1 158 course two fetish right here if you're in this large area over here that's sector one it's no pt so you're going to go straight to fetidge and then fly down final and if you're in this small area right here that's sector two you'll notice it says 5500 feet it never says no pt and so the answer is in this sector even though you think it would be a straight in sector you're still going to have to fly the procedure turn and the reason for that if you look at it this has got sorry this has got an initial out or a lowest altitude as you enter that sector of 5500 feet once you're cleared you can descend down to 5 500 but if you look at the holding pattern altitude it's 4 500. so what they're doing there is they're using the procedure turn to allow you to lose that thousand feet of altitude so that you're set up from the route from fetidge to insash okay we're going to take a look at one more scenario and again to kind of wrap up procedure turns what i always tell people is if the route doesn't say no pt and you're flying past a bold circle holding pattern or a barb then you've got to do the procedure turn even if you're perfectly aligned with the course on the other hand if you don't want to do the procedure turn you can always ask atc for a straining approach so now with rnav atc is now allowed to send you direct to an intermediate fix as opposed to vectors to the final approach fix or to an initial approach fix and you're starting to see this more and more often the rule says that they need to let you know that they're going to send you to the intermediate fix when you're more than five miles from it that's not a lot of time if you think about it five miles in the sr-22 if you're going 120 it's two and a half minutes oftentimes we're going a lot faster than that so it's only a minute or two out and this is why it's so important to load an initial approach fix when you load up an approach that way the intermediate fixes are already there and you can easily select them okay this can get very very very confusing and the reason it gets confusing is because often times an intermediate fix looks like or is and doubles for a final or an initial approach fix and it has a procedure trend so let's look at first of all eugene okay this is the uh our nav white a runway three four left um when the winds are out of the north very standard procedure to fly and if you take a look it's got ujoku right here it's a combo initial approach fix and intermediate fix and what we've found is when you're flying this approach atc will typically clear you direct ujoku and then cleared for the approach so the question is do you need to fly the procedure turn and it depends if atc says cleared for a straightened approach rnav yankee runway 3 4 left then you do not need to do the procedure turn so the rule that the faa has is if the intermediate fix has a procedure turn depicted a whole new procedure turn depicted atc needs to tell you that you are cleared for a straightening approach so if you're sitting there looking at that pattern you're like okay wait a second i know they can send me to an if and it doesn't make sense that they want me to do the turn did they say cleared straight in if they didn't and you don't want to fly the procedure turn just ask them say hey can i get clearance for a straight and approach and oftentimes they'll say yep cleared straight in approach in fact oftentimes air traffic controllers can be just as confused as pilots we've talked to quite a few that said oh i thought you guys had a choice you know you could choose to do it or not and the reality is that's never true if it's posted and it doesn't say no pt and they don't say straight in you need to fly it so if you you're looking at that intermediate fix you're going okay they've cleared me direct can i just get it straight in just ask for it and then another scenario the exact same thing except this time at salinas what you can see here this is a case where we've been cleared direct to gecko let me show you the procedure in for flight in this case we had expected to go to siskiy in initial approach fix but instead they sent us direct to jekyll which is labeled as an intermediate fix the advantage was since we had selected an iaf when we loaded the approach jeko was already in the flight plan and it was as simple as taking a direct route into gecko what you're going to hear on the approach clearance is atc does not clear us for a straight in approach and that's because there isn't a procedure turn depicted there so they don't need to include the words straight in six bravo delts one zoom out from jekyll crash gecko at about six thousand cleared for the uh are now zulu runway three one approach later okay two on six bravo delta cross gecko at or above six thousand cleared for the arnaz zulu runway three one salinas so from here we go right to jeko we make the turn and we fly down final so to kind of wrap this summary up one of the things that i want you to take home from this is when you're choosing an approach even when you expect vectors to final in salinas we've got approach control there it's right by monterey and california i had expected vectors to final it's always important to load an iaf because you never know when atc is going to send you either to an initial fix or an intermediate fix and when you're coming over terrain or you're coming down from high altitude keep in mind if you're direct to initial approach fix you might end up with a crossing altitude or some in-route minimum vectoring altitudes off-route altitudes where you end up crossing that initial approach fix super high high enough that you can't make it down for the procedure so if you can join a feeder route get on a published route it makes it a lot easier to get down to your altitude and then finally if you're trying to figure out whether you shouldn't or should fly a procedure turn they've cleared you to a fix that's either a combo initial intermediate or you're on a feeder route or across the initial fix and you're headed towards a procedure turn if the route doesn't say no pt and if atc hasn't said the words cleared for a straight-in approach then you're expected to do the procedure turn and if you're ever in doubt just ask atc if you want a straight in clearance just say hey center six bravo delta can i get a straight in approach too if they can give it to you they will otherwise you're stuck with a procedure return okay so i know this is a complicated topic i'm sure there's probably a few questions out there we do have a couple questions okay so to start off here uh don morrow asked a question um and i think this kind of goes back to um the cez approach uh could you have just slowed down to make the turns on to that approach and make it work uh that's actually a great question don so let me pull that approach okay uh we're on our way in i'm going to pull up the pen we're on our way into rema the problem was we were going about as slow as we could um and we already had our flaps in the sr22 set to 50 percent uh it was a very cold day it was winter we were coming out of the flight levels so the problem that i had was i had my power back to about 40 percent which was low enough that i could keep the engine still warm and manage descent and in my head and i had my flap set early to 50 and so one of the issues that we find especially flying around the mountains this happens a lot is that i don't want to bring my power back so far that my chts drop into the white i know there's a debate on whether shock cooling exists or doesn't exist but what i definitely know is i like to keep my chts green and in our sr-22 turbo typically that means on an arrival i can get my power back to about 40 and no lower so i do use my flaps to generate as much drag as possible and try to keep it slow but we were going down about as steep as we could and i've tried that procedure in vfr conditions a variety of times to try to figure out if there's a way you can make it work i can tell you that there are a lot of these where it's like wow man you're just dropping out of the sky there's no way to keep the engine warm joining a feeder route makes it a lot easier now of course if you've got a turbo prop you can pull that you can pull that torque lever back and drop the flaps you don't have to worry about cooling the engine and just come down like a rock but if you're in a jet or a piston um jets you pull the power back but they just can't descend fast and in a piston i like to try to keep the engine warm in that case they're just there really wasn't a good option joining the feeder would have been a lot better another question okay next one this is a little bit outside of the initial fix but actually a really good question from mark skinner and his question is if you're going into an unfamiliar airport and atc clears you for the visual do you have the option of asking for an approach instead that is a great question um and i say it because again we do a lot of operations in the mountainous areas and i can tell you in good perfectly great weather and i can tell you that i fly uh instrument procedures in good weather quite often you always have the option of asking for a procedure atc will clear you for the visual if they think you can get it if the weather is reported and above minimums they're like yep looks like you can get it and they do that out of convenience to you because a visual is faster for you it's really not because they don't want the workload it's just it's they're trying to help you out because you don't have to go through all the legs and segments but there are a couple advantages to asking for an instrument approach and the big ones come up with terrain an instrument approach is going to guarantee terrain clearance so if you're coming into an unfamiliar area at night or in vfr but not really good vfr weather joining a procedure is a great way of guaranteeing terrain clearance into the airport you can always ask for it okay next one uh jim's got a good question here uh back to cortez and that is uh how do you figure out where the feeder rods are ah that's a great question okay so we'll pull up cortez here um i've got it up right now so first of all feeder routes are going to be fixes that are before the initial approach fixes so i'm using a jepson chart here and with an initial approach fix on jepson you're looking for this right here i probably drew that a little too close it says iaf in parentheses they're not really big so you kind of got to look for it a little bit you can see there's two there's tannery right here so the feeder routes will be published on the chart so you can see we've got your v dollar so your v goes to dollar and down have woo goes to dollar and down of course if you were coming maybe from somewhere up here you could always ask for direct dollar they aren't a part of the instrument procedure per se they're prior to the initial approach fix so you know you could enter that at any point but the benefit is atc now has a published route that they can descend you on to guarantee your obstruction clearance so the other thing to think about is adc or sorry the procedure designers the procedure designers are going to put a feeder route to initial approach fix any time the initial approach sort of route an in-route structure route then you're going to end up with feeder fix or feeder routes coming in from the in-red structure and actually north bend is kind of a good example let me put them in number three is emir right here okay so if you look at e minor actually sorry if you look at let's start with rares let me pull it up and we'll switch to a low altitude there's rares right here and if we go down there's lupgi right there so those two routes aren't on or those two points are part of the in-route structure and so they don't need a feeder route um and then if you look at emir oops sorry e mire is also in an initial approach fix but let's see in this case they don't have any feeder routes going to emir because you could enter it from either rares or lup sheet and that gives you transitions from the in-route environment oh nope sorry i said that wrong i knew there was one i just couldn't find it here's the feeder route it's from north bend okay so you can see rares is not part of the in-route environment so what they've done is they've drawn a theater route from the north bend vor and you can see that it is 244 radial 3000 minimum in route altitude 6.3 miles and it takes you to emir so again because rares and lupcy are part of the in rot environment they don't have feeder routes because emir isn't it's um got a feeder route that comes from north bend over here okay and i'm actually going to hop in while you have this approach up alex because jason schaub is asking if there's a quick way to identify uh required equipment for an iaf from the plate ah for the initial approach fixer for for the procedure you've got to be a little bit careful about this and i'm going to show you why this says right here if you look at the procedure it says ils or localizer runway 4 it never mentions anything about distance requirements okay but then if you take a look it says adf and dme required for procedure entry excuse me from the in-route environment so in this case what they would want is an adf and dme and the reason for it is there's a couple reasons number one you'll see this statement for procedure entry from the in-route environment you'll see that really really often but if you look at that either you need distance to fly this arc okay or if you're going to try to track to emir the distance is helpful and then the missed approach is going to take you back to emer which is a compass locator so that's where the adf requirement comes in the easiest way to figure out what you need is to simply read the notes you can take a look here but it doesn't always tell you everything so then after that on a jepsen chart they divide the notes between two places they'll keep them there and then any equipment requirements so typically write in a box if you want let me just show the faa version so you can see that too in the faa version again you'll notice it doesn't say dme at the top but if you dig in let's see there you go right there so those are the two things that i always suggest look at the title look at the notes look at the plan view next question okay next one here uh in this actually again it's good that you've get the ils up here because it goes back to uh the cortez approach uh arnov lpv um we got a question why is that not considered a precision approach oh that's a great question okay kind of a whole different type i really love it that's it that is a great question i like these questions because um i kind of feel prepared for them but got to think of my feet one of the one of the interesting things about precision approaches when i learned to fly a precision approach was anything with a glide slope we didn't have really glide paths you had mls's which we could not fly and the chair kit was flying you had ilses if it had a glide slope it was a precision approach these days things are a lot more complicated we have three categories of approaches now okay you've got a non-precision approach which you can think of as lateral only okay they don't give you any vertical guidance okay this includes those approaches in your rnav database that say plus v and as soon as you see plus v that's manufacturer's guidance it's not faa guidance it's not certified it isn't even guaranteed to keep you above step-down fixes so those are non-precision approaches the precision approaches are your ils mls cat123 approaches then in the middle you've got these rnav procedures with either lnav vnav or lpv localizer precis precision with vertical guidance and they can get you down to the same da as a cat one ils 200 feet but they're called an approach with vertical guidance apv it has nothing to do with the minimums it has nothing to do with the visibility it has nothing to do with the da it has to do with the equipment and certification requirements under iko for a precision approach so when you think about it if you look at the acs now it says that you can use an apv or a precision approach to demonstrate the old precision approach requirement what they're really saying is we want you to fly that glide path or glide slope but we've got this new intermediate category because the rnav procedures don't necessarily meet all the iko equipment and certification and requirements for a precision approach but they can still get you down to 200 um and a half in a in a category air b aircraft and the cool thing about them is you're seeing them everywhere you see them at cortez or tillamook these are places where you would never see an ils approach so to us as pilots precision or approach with vertical guidance essentially the same thing there's an iko certification difference that we don't worry about but to procedure designers airports planners there is absolutely a difference the other thing that i am going to say i choose an rnav procedure any day over an ils it's not because i'm all about rna i definitely like flying you know navigating is navigating to me but the difference is ils localizers and glide slopes are subject to interference and it happens much more than you would think when we're filming our instrument course i've seen localizers get the airplane into a turn where i flipped on the autopilot to see what it would do and we ended up doing dutch rolls down the final course and i've picked up glide slope scalloping more times than i can count the beauty about an rnaf procedure is it is rock solid all the way down to d a it is better guidance so if i have the option if the da's are the same and the visibility requirements are the same arnev every single time another question okay here's another one uh scott made a comment i'm going to kind of turn this into a question sure and actually it goes back to this ils that you have up here right now uh the ils into uh north bend uh it says adf and dme required uh a lot of airplanes now don't have either one of those ah how do you fly they approach i uh we actually the cirrus that we fly has two gps receivers and two vor localizer you know combined vlog and ils or vor localizer glideslip receivers no dme no adf and we looked into getting dme put in and no one was even quite sure how you could do it so yeah the days of dme and ga aircraft are kind of going away at least in the united states you'll still see them in transport category stuff for a while but the beauty about it is you can substitute rnav for vors and for adfs so you can use them to track to or from a vor two or from an adf measure distance from or to a vor adf or to a localizer with dme the only thing you can't use rnav4 is to track a localizer itself and so this really gets into okay if you load the procedure and you start using that rnav guidance you know it says this is for overlay and monitoring purposes only you can't use it on final when do you have to switch over off of rnav and the answer is let's take a look at this ils i know i'm kind of digging in a little further in this question but this is one of my favorite kind of topics because it really gets into what you do um if you look at it what we've got here is a dme arc and i can use rnf to navigate this dme arc i can use rnav gps to identify this fix right here metuhi which is basically the end of the arc okay i can even use it to identify e minor because z minor is a compass locator outer marker lom which is the same thing as an adf just lower power and i can use my gps to track two from or measure distance from an adf but what i can't do is use my gps rnav system to navigate laterally along a localizer course so in this case i can be an rnav all the way up till i turn in here once i turn in here now i've crossed matui and if we take a look at that point in time inbound to least i'm inbound on the localizer course and so at that point in time according to the faa i need to swap my needles over from magenta or arnav needles over to green needles at that point in time i'm making the switch and this can get a little bit tricky something to think about when you're flying your airplane i know our sr-22 um it's a nxi version so it actually shows me the localizer guidance underneath the rnav when i'm flying rnav guidance into an ils and it will switch on its own over to localizer but it doesn't do it as soon as i start tracking the localizer course it actually does it you know a fix or two down as we get closer to the final approach fix we spoke with the faa about it trying to figure out okay when do we legally need to turn i can tell you the interpretation is as soon as the procedure is using the localizer for guidance you need to have the localizer up other than that you can use rnav to track to or from vors adfs and in fact as long as your equipment doesn't prohibit it you can fly an entire vor approach all the way down final as long as on final approach you're actively monitoring the vor and that could be as simple as leaving rnav guidance up on your cdi and then having a bearing pointer hooked up to your vor underneath it which is exactly how i would fly a vr approach if i still had rnav service available and needed to view our approach there's kind of an entire another discussion all at one time there okay i think we got time for one more okay uh and this comes from roy what are your feelings on uh using uh in general gps over ground-based nav aids for navigation okay so um that's a really good question um that kind of goes down to so i started flying in 1996 in my instrument rating in 1997 i think as i said i took my first instrument flight in an airplane with two vors one ils no dme through the clouds in north dakota not a lot to hit there but still doing cross radials i love that stuff i think that ground-based navidades in navigating with them was a fun art that being said practically the ability to go direct to a fix can make your life so much easier and air traffic controls that at the end of the day we end up doing a lot of rnav navigating now the other thing is i typically have my bearing pointers up so in our sr22 i've got a g1000nx high and my two bearing pointers can be tied to the vors or to the gps course and my preference is to tie at least one of them to a vor if the route has vors along it and then i leave the other one up on the gps so i have the distance at the bottom of the hsi it's easier for my scan pattern the interesting thing about rnav as long as the service is available as long as you're getting reception you don't have any of the interference or or scalloping problems that you would get with traditional vor guidance um and again we've been we've been filling this instrument course we've flown quite a few vors and ilses and i can tell you um there's there's a lot of ground reflection and interference and those courses aren't perfect there's definitely some needles moving around um in in multiple aircraft it's not you know it's not the receiver so the reality is rnav gives you really efficient routing and it gives you typically rock-solid guidance now everybody asks the question what happens if you lose arnav and that's a fantastic question that's why we have vors and that's why i practice vor approaches in fact one of the things we'll talk about the instrument course is when you're practicing a vor approach does it make sense to practice it with aren't ever not and the answer is it really doesn't make sense to practice it with arnav because you're probably if the airport's got a vr approach it also generally has an rnav approach rnav will usually get you lower if you're flying the vr approach it's because rnav's no longer available your equipment's broken the satellites are down there's interference so at that point in time you're down to vors and an interesting procedure we flew is the vor alpha i'll show you here um in newport this is part of our course that we're coming out with and this is a perfect approach the simplest approach you could ever see but if i was going into newport and i lost our nav that's the only approach i have left to fly because everything else requires distance information and all of my rn have all my distance comes from rdap so this is a really great procedure you're basically going to cross the newport vor track outbound execute a procedure turn and inbound well how do you know with you know when to execute the procedure turn you use a clock and so we flew that in actual imc with thousand foot ceilings with the vor with the gps not tied to it we set the timer flew the procedure popped out of the clouds circle to land so you know again what i always tell people is aren't abs production the best way to fly but we're always asking ourselves why would i use this procedure when i go out to train and practice fly it like i really need it take away the system so that if i do lose rnav sure i can fly a vr and and clock it and get down okay i'm getting this signal from call and that is uh the last question i really enjoyed this i hope you guys did as well um this is our first ifr live stream the next one will be two weeks from now so in the chat or via email send us your thoughts and suggestions uh definitely looking for ways to improve and also tell us what topics you'd like to hear about next time there's a ton of stuff in the ifr system and we're really excited to go over it so uh tomorrow night uh same time as this broadcast we're gonna do airline career hiring prep it's not really just airlines it's kind of a mass group of people but it's career prep and so tomorrow we're going to be talking about stars arrivals and descend via clearances and restrictions and how to properly make your way through a pilot interview talking yourself through an arrival procedure with any kind of stuff that atc can throw at you so hopefully you'll tune in for that otherwise i hope to see you in a couple weeks thanks [Music] so [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] so [Applause] so [Applause] [Applause] you

Channel: Boldmethod

Views: 53,857

Rating: 4.9629974 out of 5

Keywords: flying, ifr, instrument pilot, flight training, pilot, instrument approach, instrument rating, aviation, student pilot

Id: MFJjGt_fr04

Length: 70min 55sec (4255 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 05 2019