[MUSIC PLAYING] MATT BRITTIN: So please welcome,
enthusiastically and warmly, Viv Groskop. [APPLAUSE] VIV GROSKOP: Thank you. Hey. Thank you, Matt. MATT BRITTIN: Thank
you very much. VIV GROSKOP: Thank you. Oh, in the spirit
of Google Translate, I feel like I should
say [RUSSIAN].. MATT BRITTIN: Well,
that's very rude of you. VIV GROSKOP: There any
Russian speakers in the room? Yeah. So-- MATT BRITTIN: What
did you say there? VIV GROSKOP: Hello. Thank you. I love you. MATT BRITTIN: Oh. I can see this is going to
be a great chat with you. VIV GROSKOP: Yeah. MATT BRITTIN: Let's just
start with-- what do you mean, owning the room? What does that mean? VIV GROSKOP: Well, you just
demonstrated it, actually, with that little
slip-up that you had, not being able to
say Anna Karenina. So can you say it now? MATT BRITTIN: No. VIV GROSKOP: Owning the
room is about feeling really comfortable in the
spotlight, so comfortable that you're OK with failing. That's it, basically. Because in everyday
life, when we're talking to people, when we're
just moving through our lives, we don't go around
thinking, oh, I'm going to meet my
friend with coffee-- for coffee-- but I haven't
prepared anything to say. You know, we move through
life very comfortably, and we don't question ourselves. But suddenly, when we're
in a position like-- not literally like
this, but sometimes, literally like this-- where
we're in a spotlight-- but that spotlight can
feel like it comes anytime, like in an interview
situation, job interview, in a difficult conversation with
your boss, in a confrontation. We can feel like we're
in that spotlight. And that is the moment
when the adrenaline comes, and we have that
fight or flight, which is very natural human reaction. It's about learning how to
be comfortable with that, control it, and feel like you're
just owning yourself in the way that you do in normal moments. I've gotten quite Paul
McKenna quite early on. That's OK. MATT BRITTIN: So we're
going to go into, I think-- get practical about
what you learned and what you've
shared in the book. But before we do that, I
mentioned this idea of doing a hundred stand-up
gigs in a hundred days, which you did when you had
a child under one, I think-- VIV GROSKOP: Yes. MATT BRITTIN: --as If it
wasn't stressful enough. Just tell us a bit
about, like, why did you do-- why
did you do that? VIV GROSKOP: Well, some
people will do anything to avoid bedtime
for small children, and I was one of those people. And what happened to me
was that, as you said, I had a long and
very happy career as a freelance journalist. I started my career
in my early 20s, working in old-school
Fleet Street, which lots of the beautiful
young people in the room won't even remember. So I had a office job
until I was about 25, working for places like "The
Daily Express" and "The Daily Telegraph," and places I hated. And that was a good experience
for me to be in a job I hated. It made me go freelance. And then I had about 10 years of
loving writing and freelancing. And that was how I was able
to have my three children. I have three children, which
is an answer to the question, how many children is too many. And as I go into my mid 30s-- and I felt like I had a lot
of control over my life, because I had a
lot of flexibility. And I loved my work-- I began to realize that, as
my children were growing up, I was telling them a lie. So I was always
saying to them, do what you want with your life. Live your dreams. Don't let other people
tell you what to do. And the more I
said this to them, the more I realized
it wasn't true for me, and that the thing I'd
always wanted to do, which was to perform,
to entertain, to be in the spotlight-- to
really try stand-up comedy was what I really wanted to do-- I'd never done it. Because I was too damn chicken. I was chicken. MATT BRITTIN: How did you know
that's what you wanted to do? VIV GROSKOP: I had had an
idea from when I was a child. People-- and again,
too young to remember-- the kids from "Fame"-- yeah? 1980s? AUDIENCE: Yeah! Yeah. VIV GROSKOP: Doris Schwartz-- Doris Schwartz and
Bruno Martelli, and the kids from
"Fame," Mr. Shorofsky-- MATT BRITTIN: Yeah, [INAUDIBLE]. VIV GROSKOP: You were there. MATT BRITTIN: I was there. Still got the leg warmers, yeah. VIV GROSKOP: Doris Schwartz
was this character in this mid-'80s, a woman stand-up
in the New York High School of the Performing Arts. And New Yorkers in
the room cringing. And I loved her
when I was a child. But I grew up in the
kind of environment where my parents
later turned out to be massive Brexit voters,
and like, quite sort of closed, don't take any risks,
do not do anything creative sort of environment. So I was never-- I didn't feel I was able
to set that as a goal. Like, I'd love to do stand-up. I'd love to do acting. If I could live my
life over again, I would have done that
from a much younger age. But instead, I kind of was
like, OK, well, maybe I can be a writer. And just through seeing
my own kids grow up and realizing that life is too
short to stifle the stuff you really want to do, I had to
acknowledge, yeah, actually, I'm kind of hiding
behind this keyboard. I'm hiding behind the words. And I've got to get out
there and at least try. And so I ended up doing some
workshops and all that kind of stuff that you do
when you first try it, and realizing that I loved it. After the first workshop I ever
did in stand-up comedy when I was 35-- I'm 45 now. I know, it's amazing. And I came home. And my husband said
to me, after doing three hours of this
stand-up training, this is the most relaxed
I've seen you in 10 years. And I knew I really
wanted to do it. But then you learn
very quickly how hard it is to actually do
it, and that if you are going to do it
seriously, you better get to a hundred gigs fast. And I just had my third
child, and he'd turned one. When he turned one,
I was like, OK, you've had enough
attention from me now. I'm going out every night,
a hundred gigs in a hundred nights. And that was in 2011. And since then, I've gone on
to do five shows at Edinburgh, one-woman shows, and ended
up hosting book tours for Graham Norton, Dawn French,
Jennifer Saunders, Jay Brand, and moving into more
radio and TV work, which is what I really wanted to do. MATT BRITTIN: So it was a route
to something else in the end? VIV GROSKOP: Yeah, it was. And I would-- if you'd have
said to me, 10 years ago, oh, you're going to
be doing stand-up, and you're going to go on
stage with Graham Norton, or any of these
people, and then you're going to write a book for people
about how to own the room, I would be like, no, thanks. No, I don't really want--
that sounds horrible. But as time went on, I realized
how much I'd learnt about all of this, and that I really
wanted to pass it on to other people, and have this
discussion about-- it's not an entirely
gendered discussion, and that's a really
important point to make. But I do think it's harder,
sometimes, for women to try these things. And that's obviously a
huge conversation in comedy is, why aren't
there as many women? I think loads more women
are coming through now. And the last 10 years has
seen a massive change. But the numbers are
always really skewed. And on the comedy
bill, you're often the only woman out of six. And you're generally going to
be the opener, like, the lowest status spot, all that stuff. So having learnt how to do
this on the fly late in life, I wanted to pass it on. And then I found
I was constantly thinking, for the idea for
this book, and for the podcast, where I interview lots of
women about all of this stuff-- I was thinking, I
can't write that. Because who will listen to me? I can't-- I'm not famous. No one knew-- I'm not
a massively successful stand-up comedian. And I remember saying
to this friend of mine, who is a writer, I
can't write this book. This book should be
written by Joan Rivers. Like, Joan-- who would
want to read "How to Own the Room" by Joan Rivers? I mean, that would be the
most amazing book ever. And my friend just looked
at me and said, Viv, Joan Rivers is dead. [LAUGHTER] And if she were
alive, she would not be bothered to write this book. She is not a book-writing
kind of person, although she did
write a lot of books. But she would not wanted
to write this book. So this is your book. This is your idea. Put it out there and see
if people are interested. And the book came
out in November. I met you shortly
after it came out. And it's become a bestseller. It's sold in three countries. It's coming out in
Canada next week. The podcast has gone
top 10 on iTunes. Which, the podcast got
put together in two weeks, literally. Because Mary Portas, the retail
guru, came to me and said, how can I help you
with your book? And I said, well, it's
coming out in two weeks. So I can't interview
you for it or anything. How about I interview you
for the podcast, which doesn't actually
exist, but it will if you say yes to an interview? And she said yes. And so then, suddenly,
I had a podcast, which happened in two weeks. So-- MATT BRITTIN: You are a woman on
a mission, though, aren't you, really? VIV GROSKOP: Yeah, because
this stuff is really important. And I've been really-- I've had a lot of moments of
being really upset, actually, of what I-- the stories that
have come out from doing these kind of events. I do one-on-one
work with people. I do workshops where people can
come and have a clinic with me for 10 minutes. And I do little interventions
about presentation and confidence, and
men as well as women. But often, from
women-- like, the depth of people's insecurity and the
weight that they're carrying with them about, my
voice sounds weird, no one wants to
listen to my voice, I've got an annoying voice-- I feel like I'm talking
about myself here-- and all of these tiny,
little, niggling gremlins are so prevalent in everybody. And there's got to be a
way to talk about this and get rid of it. Because everybody thinks
it's personal to them, and they have this
specific problem that they would need some help with. And it's not. Everybody has it. MATT BRITTIN: Absolutely. So I want to get into the book. So one of the things
I love about the book is it's written in
chapters around people. And so "Be More Michelle
Obama" is the first chapter. VIV GROSKOP: Yes. MATT BRITTIN: And-- VIV GROSKOP: Demonstrate
it now, Matt. [LAUGHTER] MATT BRITTIN: I'm doing it. I'm doing it. VIV GROSKOP: You actually are. You actually are. MATT BRITTIN: So I said,
to Viv, actually, I-- that chapter is about something
called happy high status. And we'll ask you
about that in a second. But yesterday, I had those
three words in my mind when I went on stage at
a big technology, media, and telecoms event. And I was speaking
between the CEO of Sky, owned by Rupert Murdoch, and
the CEO of News Corp, owned by Rupert Murdoch. And I was thinking, I
know what these guys are going to say about
the technology companies. And I'm going to be more
Michelle Obama in between. And so thank you. But now-- VIV GROSKOP: Did you
have a sleeveless-- I love that. Did you wear a sleeveless to-- no. MATT BRITTIN: I
haven't quite got that. VIV GROSKOP: OK, next
time-- next time. MATT BRITTIN: But
happy high status-- VIV GROSKOP: Yeah. MATT BRITTIN: --that
is a great concept. Tell us about that. VIV GROSKOP: Yeah,
so when I first started training in
stand-up, and taking all of these workshops,
and trying to work out how I was going to
start doing this stuff, I came across this
idea in improv comedy called happy high status. And it's about the
moment where you are so open and
comfortable in a space that you can accept
disagreement. You can accept dissent. You can accept that the
person coming after you is going to trash you. You can take on haters
and be like, yeah, tell me more about
why you hate me, and be very open and
collegiate with it, and allow everybody's viewpoints
to exist at any one time. I am personally not
very good at this, because I'm quite neurotic. But it's an energy
that you need to have, for example, if you're
MCing in comedy, where you might have to
switch the energy from one comedian to the next. You might have to bring
up the energy in the room or calm it down if
somebody was really crazy. And it's about being able to
feel your way into situations where you make sure
everybody feels unthreatened and everybody feels welcome. And Michelle Obama is
the expert of this. But the other example-- to show it's not
gendered as well, the other example
is George Clooney. MATT BRITTIN: Tell us the-- tell us the story. VIV GROSKOP: So the
story they use in improv about George Clooney, it's
supposed to be a made-up story. But I like to think
it's true and that it's going to happen to me one day. So you imagine that you are
going to a Hollywood party. It's the Oscars, and you're
going to the "Vanity Fair" party, which was recently
discredited by "The New York Times." But imagine it's
still in its heyday. And you're going to
this fabulous party. Everybody's in black tie. You're late. Your meeting your friends,
who you really want to see. On the way in, you tap
a waiter on the shoulder to ask for a drink,
because you're late, and you're in a hurry. Oh, can you just get me a drink? You go and join your friends. The waiter comes
over with the drink. You turn around. It's George Clooney. And you mistook George
Clooney for a waiter, which, in a black tie
situation could happen, right? Matt, you move in these circles. This-- MATT BRITTIN: I've done it-- I've done it twice. VIV GROSKOP: Right. MATT BRITTIN: Don't do it
twice, that's all I'd say. VIV GROSKOP: And the
happy high status lesson is that George Clooney hands
you a cocktail, or your glass of champagne, or whatever,
without making you remotely feel small,
because he's George Clooney, and he can. And Michelle Obama
could do that. Barack Obama could do that. They're not going to turn
around and say, excuse me, I'm not a cocktail waiter. But to show you that
happy high status is not the same as high status,
the person you could not do that with is Donald Trump. So it's not about conferred
status or a business card. It's not about the
actual position that you occupy
in the hierarchy. It's about how you conduct
yourself with other people. MATT BRITTIN: I think
it's a great concept. Thank you for sharing that. You mentioned Joan Ridges-- Rivers. She's in your book as well-- "Be More Joan Rivers." VIV GROSKOP: Yeah MATT BRITTIN: What do we do
when we want to be more Joan? VIV GROSKOP: Oh my
god, well, I was-- it was tricky including Joan
Rivers in this, actually, particularly because she's an
example of somebody, I think, whose comedy would not exist
anymore nowadays, because woke, she ain't. So I wanted to include her
as an example of a person who is everything we're told, men
and women, we shouldn't be. So we shouldn't talk too fast. We must make sure that we
speak in a measured way. We must-- lots of
women are always saying, should I lower my tone
so that people can hear-- no. No, just speak like
a normal person. And Joan Rivers breaks
a lot of these rules. OK, she can, because
she's a stand-up comedian. But she's a person who
speaks way too fast, who has way too much energy. You can barely sort
of keep up with what she's saying supposedly. And yet you never
miss a single word. So I wanted to include
lots of examples, in the book, of women
who break the rules. Because there's a lot
of these kind of fake, bullshit rules around
speaking, and presenting, and how we come across to people
that-- we all know, in reality, we all have, even within our
day-to-day lives in work, like, managers who-- they're not a
stereotypical manager. They are actually, maybe,
a bit more introverted than you would expect. Or they're somebody
who's a bit more relaxed in a corporate
culture than you. There are always people
who break the rules. And for me, it's really
important to try and find your own energy
and your own style by looking at those
people and saying, oh, that's not orthodox, how
are they getting away with that? That's really interesting to me. MATT BRITTIN: So we're
working on trying to get a workshop
lined up so people can experience this in
practice, which would be great. So look out for dates on that. But what do you
most often find when you're working with people? Is there's something that's
a really common issue that you have to encourage
people to deal with? Or has everybody got their
own different challenges? VIV GROSKOP: There's
one very specific thing I want to mention, because I've
noticed you doing it, Matt. [LAUGHTER] So it's really interesting. We had lunch in
your lovely canteen before we came on stage. And you were talking-- he's really worried. No, you're not. Because you're
happy high status, so you're not worried about
what I'm going to say or do. [LAUGHTER] So you're OK. You're OK. MATT BRITTIN: OK, OK. VIV GROSKOP: So we were
talking in a group of about 10 of us, in an informal
conversational situation. And you, and lots
of other people in the group, and probably me
as well, when we're talking, we tend to talk
like this, and say what's been going on in
our week, and everything that we say goes up at
the end of every sentence. And I was really interested
because I noticed you were doing it as well. And I often say, oh,
this is something that's very common to
women and younger women. And I was very
interested to notice that you followed that
inflection as well, which is totally useful
and appropriate in a conversational setting. However, lots of
people then transfer that into a formal interview
presentation situation, and it makes everything you
say sound like a suggestion, and it weakens your power. And it's the one thing that
everybody needs to work on. Because if I stop talking to
you like (RAISING PITCH) this, you don't know if I really
mean what I'm (RAISING PITCH) saying. And last weekend,
I went to Paris, and my husband named
(RAISING PITCH) Simon. Did I even know my husband's
(RAISING PITCH) name? And it's really
interesting to me that you were talking like that. Because this kind of
talking is actually necessary for forging
bonds and for showing this isn't a formal situation. We're having a normal chat. This is day to day. But the moments where
you are in the spotlight, and you want to step up and
be heard, move out of that, "hey we're just hanging
out in the canteen and having some laska." It was quite a nice laksa. MATT BRITTIN: It
was a fun lunch. VIV GROSKOP: It was a good one. It was a fun lunch. So it's-- MATT BRITTIN: We shouldn't have
had that second vodka, though. VIV GROSKOP: No. [LAUGHTER] It's recognizing the difference
between conversational speech and more formal. MATT BRITTIN: OK,
thank you for that. You made me feel uneasy
there, but thank you. VIV GROSKOP: That
was intentional. MATT BRITTIN: Now, can
I you another question? [LAUGHTER] VIV GROSKOP: You see,
there, it is a question. [LAUGHTER] MATT BRITTIN: I'm
really confused. So what I'm going
to do, I'm going to come to you for
questions in a moment. So please come to
the mic in a second. VIV GROSKOP: Can
I say something? Funny as well-- say
that I'm embarrassed. So Matt and I, we don't
really know each other. MATT BRITTIN: That's true. VIV GROSKOP: But
we are neighbors. We live two minutes' walk
apart, and our children have been at the same school-- there at different times. And I have known for a
while there is this guy-- I live in Teddington-- there's
this guy who lives locally who works for Google, Matt
from Google, and he's a parent. MATT BRITTIN: Where are
you going with this, Viv? [LAUGHTER] VIV GROSKOP: And so then I
met Matt at a friend's party. And I'm like, oh yeah, he's
the guy, Matt from Google, who lives here. And we talked about this. MATT BRITTIN: We did. VIV GROSKOP: And you said, oh,
I'm really interested in this. This is so important for
people to talk about this. Can you come around
and chat about it? And so I go round to-- he
invites me around to his house so we can chat about it. I'm thinking, oh yeah,
Matt from Google, he's a parent at the school. And on the way, I thought, I'm
just going to check who he is. [LAUGHTER] And I was Googling,
I was like, oh, OK. Yeah, so-- MATT BRITTIN: What was
it that came up that-- VIV GROSKOP: Well-- [LAUGHTER] I was, "oh, I see." MATT BRITTIN: Google's not
very kind to me, actually. VIV GROSKOP: Well, no no. I don't mean that
something came up. I just mean I then
realized who you were. Because I was thinking I was
just going to meet this guy called Matt who's from Google. Yeah. MATT BRITTIN: So can I
ask you another question? VIV GROSKOP: Yes, you can. MATT BRITTIN: OK, so thank
you very much for that story. [LAUGHTER] VIV GROSKOP: You didn't like it. MATT BRITTIN: So something
else you mentioned in the book and I think people
will have maybe heard of before is like how
your physical posture can help you or hinder you in
these settings as well. And you have a chapter,
"Be More Amy Cuddy." She's a body language expert. And I was going
through the book, actually, I was watching each
of these people on YouTube and what you meant. It's really interesting to read
the book and see the stuff. So what does she teach us? And tell us about-- VIV GROSKOP: Amy
Cuddy is probably somebody lots of people
in the room will know. She has one of the
most-watched TED Talks ever, about power poses. Shall we embrace this, Matt? MATT BRITTIN: OK. VIV GROSKOP: OK. Oh, you see? Right, so if people haven't
watched this TED Talk, it's from about five years ago. It's now at about
50 million views. And Amy Cuddy, she has a
book called "Presence," which is all about body language. But it's more about
how your body language affects how you feel
inside rather than how it affects how you come
across to other people. So power poses are Wonder
Woman, Usain Bolt-- very nice-- and the one
I call City Banker, this. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. And the whole point of the power
poses is opening up your body. And her TED Talk
explains that if you hold these poses in
a private place-- not in your meeting,
(AGGRESSIVELY) hello-- and you go
to a private place, and you hold this pose
for at least two minutes, it changes the
chemicals in your brain. That's what her research showed. It's very interesting, because
that was five years ago, and then that went viral, and
led to a book, and everything. And since then, of
course, because she's popular neuroscience, all
the other neuroscientists said, actually, no, there
is not enough evidence to show the chemicals
in the brain, and your sample size
is very small, and-- it's been a bit of
a sad kind of thing. But for me, these power
poses really work. I don't care if the real
science is there or not. I've done it. It works. And it makes a lot
of sense to me, of this opening up of the body. Not for public consumption. So it's not about how you
come across to other people, but for fooling yourself
into, oh, I've got this. And that feeling of Usain Bolt
crossing the finishing line is the feeling
of, I've got this. And it's very hard if
you've been, and stood, in a dressing
room, in a toilet-- and standing over
there, I was like this-- it totally calms
you and takes away any feelings of smallness and
nerves that you might have. MATT BRITTIN: And something
else you touch on in the book is that people take their
cue from you, in terms of if you're on stage,
and you're nervous, and there are
tensions on yourself. VIV GROSKOP: You see the
difference in how someone comes across when they do this. It's so important. So if you go into a situation
with this bigger energy, I think we're frightened of
this because we don't want to come across as an asshole. Can I say-- I've said it now. [LAUGHTER] We don't want to come
across as that person. Nobody wants to be
that person who-- nobody really wants to be
like, (AGGRESSIVELY) hey, I own the room. Nobody wants to be that person. So we're scared of that
openness and that-- but in fact, most people, they
just need a bit more of that and a bit less of this. And don't be afraid
to overdo it. You can always rein it back in. But we're so afraid that we
go too far the other way, and we don't lead. And then other people, they
do take their cue from you in all things-- how you enter a stage,
how you enter a room. That, they will meet you
with the same energy. MATT BRITTIN: Do please come to
the microphone, because-- oh, there we go, fantastic. I'm terrified I'm just going to
get an interrogation, or more. Thank you very much. Go ahead. AUDIENCE: Hi, thank you so much. I really enjoyed the talk. I have a question around how you
started, in terms of failure. Actually you mentioned
that owning the room is being comfortable
with failing. And I guess my
question is, especially because you do stand-up
comedy, have you ever failed when you've
actually owned the room? And what was it like to
kind of pick yourself up from that point and actually
take control of the room again? And if it was even in
the same situation, or if it was when
you came back to it. VIV GROSKOP: I almost
didn't listen to the-- I did listen to the
question, but I almost didn't listen to the
question because you have a great tone,
and great presence, and no uptalk unless
it's a question. Very lovely. [LAUGHTER] But the question is-- we all have so much to learn-- the question is what
constitutes failure, and how have I
recovered from that? In stand-up, you learn
nothing unless you fail. And it's like any-- I'm not saying stand-up
is an artistic endeavor. I think it's a bit
pretentious to say that. But in any creative
endeavor or something where you're giving
people something that they didn't actually ask
for, that's always the really interesting thing, is
that you're trying to say, you didn't ask for this, or
you're not expecting this, but look, you're
going to like it. That is always a huge risk
and constitutes as failure. So many times I would
fail very badly. I remember the first time I
ever did a Saturday night gig-- and that's a big deal. And when I was trying to do
my 100 gigs in 100 nights, I could never get Saturday
nights booked, because that's the night when people pay a lot
of money to see professionals, and I was not a
professional then. And I'd be missing a night. Because I was doing 100
gigs, 100 consecutive nights. That would mean I'd have
to do two the next night. Or if I missed three
Saturdays, then I'd have to do three
on one other night. And so I was desperate to
get this Saturday night gig, and I got it, and I was opening. And I did material that I'd
done maybe 20 or 30 gigs before, a five-minute slot, that
had gone really well, and I knew was good. It was solid. It was gold-- solid gold. And it absolutely bombed in
a room of about 200 people. That's a lot of silence. And it was a full-on tumbleweed
for the whole of the time. And I had no skills
and no experience of knowing how to
turn that around. And my head split
into three parts. The first part is the
front of my head-- keep talking, keep talking,
just keep going, keep going. Middle part-- think of
something else to say. Find something-- no,
there isn't anything. Think-- no-- try-- no-- what-- nothing comes. And the back part of my
head, the third part, was like, why don't you decide
what method of suicide you're going to use when this is over? Because you will not
want to live in society any longer because you
have shamed yourself. And it was really,
really horrific. And it was a painful death. Because lots of
the other deaths-- I've had mini deaths, open mic,
where there's a workshop vibe, it's much easier, the
audience knows you're new. But this was my first
professional thing, and I fluffed it. And I went to the
back of the room after I'd finished, and
walked off stage to like-- [IMITATING VERY SPARSE APPLAUSE] [LAUGHTER] Walk of shame. And I said to this comedian
at the back of the room, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? Is it what I'm wearing? Is it my hair? Is my voice-- I couldn't understand why it
worked once but not that time. And he looked at me, and
I thought, oh, wow, he's going to say something
so profound now. It's going to change everything. And he said, just be funny. [LAUGHTER] And I did walk home in
tears, and I was still crying the next morning. But after a while I learned. Especially because then
I was doing my 100 gigs, and that was a trick
of the 100 gigs. That was like number 27. Well, tomorrow is number 28. Let it go. So I had to go back
and do another one. And then the next it was fine. And the thing is, he was right. Just be funny. Just fail, learn from it,
try again, and just be. But you know, that's
a stupid thing to say. It's like saying, just relax. But the reality is
just force yourself through difficult situations,
accept it as a learning curve. And I wish I hadn't
put myself through so much personal torture. Because what I was experiencing
was not really personal to me. It was the process. Process is failure and
learning from failure. AUDIENCE: Thank you. VIV GROSKOP: You're welcome. MATT BRITTIN: Wow. AUDIENCE: My question was just
around humor, and how important you feel that is. I guess it's one of those things
you imagine you either innately have it or you don't. So would you suggest
that people should learn to be humorous,
or use humor, or is that the only tool? What would you say? VIV GROSKOP: Oh, what
a lovely question. Well there are two
parts to this question. Number one is, do you
have to be born funny? And I think some people
are naturally funny, and they can channel
that in different ways. Being naturally funny in
life doesn't necessarily translate to being
funny as a performer. And there are lots of performers
who are really awkward in life. There really are. And there are lots of people who
are very funny in life, who you put them in a
stand-up situation, and you're actually
working from a script. And that's a whole
different discipline. So knowing what's
funny on stage is not the same as knowing
what's funny in life. But I don't think that you're
necessarily born with it or not born with it. I think you can allow
yourself to play. Because a lot of it is about
accessing your childhood self. Because when we're kids,
we're all pretty funny, right? All kids are funny. Kids are funny. Have kids. Yeah, let that be the
message for you today. MATT BRITTIN: Two. VIV GROSKOP: Two, yeah. Happy International
Women's Day, have children. [LAUGHTER] No, use contraception,
that's the message. [LAUGHTER] Sorry, Matt. MATT BRITTIN: What
was the question? VIV GROSKOP: Yeah,
kids are funny. And when we're kids, we play,
and we make each other laugh, and we're silly,
and we don't care. And then round
about the age of-- parents will recognize
this age of 7, 8, 9, what they call the social
editor starts to kick in. And the social editor is the
person who makes you think, inside, oh, no, what
if other people think I said the wrong thing? And oh, in this situation,
I'm not allowed to do that. And this is really important
to have that social editor. Otherwise, we would all
be leaking out stuff the whole time, and acting
out, which is what kids do. But it's really sad because
the flip side of that is that we lose the
play that we have. So anytime that
you feel like you want to get more
humor into something, just try and access
your kid self. MATT BRITTIN: Great answer. Do come for other questions. Oh, here we go. Thank you. AUDIENCE: So let's say you
work with a range of clients who are high status
to happy high status. VIV GROSKOP: Asking
for a friend. AUDIENCE: Yeah, maybe. And you're not
yet either status, but more of an aspiring
happy high status. How do you own the room as
that person with high status? VIV GROSKOP: Very interesting. Specifically
working with-- yeah, some people who are difficult
and some people who are fine, you're saying. AUDIENCE: Like an Anna
Wintour, for example. VIV GROSKOP: Oh
what would you do if Anna Wintour was your boss? Right. What a great example. So yeah, I mean, Anna
Wintour is somebody who is not happy high status. She is guarded. MATT BRITTIN: Unhappy high
status, would you say? VIV GROSKOP: Well, I imagine
in herself, she's very happy. She's got things set
up just how she wants. But she's kind of
guarded high status. The Queen is not
happy high status. She can't be. She can't have the same
energy as Michelle Obama. So for example, Michelle
Obama, when she met the queen, she touched her, which
was a breach of protocol. But she's so happy high
status, she got away with it. The Queen would
not touch anybody because she's not in
that kind of happy zone, and neither would Anna Wintour. She's in that kind
of guarded zone. For me, it's really important
to underline that point of it's not about the status
that you actually occupy, it's about your
energy, and your generosity, and your willingness
to accept any opinion and work with whoever
you're working with. And yeah, it's not a magic wand. So sometimes you work
with difficult people, and the reality is
they are difficult. And it doesn't matter how
happy high status you are. Happy high status might help
you be more zen about accepting, oh, yeah, this person is quite
tricky, but that's about them, it's not about me. I'm going to maintain my poise. MATT BRITTIN: Just
as you were talking-- I think there's something about
getting your attention off of yourself and not
taking it personally if somebody is
[? radiating ?] that. And I think what you
said about high status-- happy high status,
seems to me, is about putting people at ease,
and having that sort of grace to be able to do that. There's something in that
about getting your attention off yourself, which
is hard to do when there's somebody
that makes you feel sort of defensive, or small. VIV GROSKOP: Yeah, exactly. And that is something that
is very hard-won in comedy. Because there can often be
negative energy somewhere in the room. People are often too
drunk, or there could even be violence in
the room, or there could be just somebody in
the back of the room that doesn't really like you and
is here for someone else. And you have to learn to like-- that's fine. Not everybody has to
be here to like me. You're a bit drunk. Great, let's look after
you, make sure you're OK. You want to heckle. OK, let's let you
have your moment. It's having that
kind of lightness, of everything is fine. MATT BRITTIN: Thank
you very much. One thing you talk
about in the book is, there are often
occasions when you're asked to be on a stage
or platform when you're part of a panel, and you know,
how should you behave when you're not the person talking. And just before we came
on, we talked about that, and said, well, if you want
to know how not to do it, look at Alan Partridge. And I've been struggling ever
since then with the sort of-- [LAUGHTER] --thing. But-- VIV GROSKOP: That's a
very good impression. MATT BRITTIN: I've been
working on it for a while. So just tell us a
bit more about that. There are a whole
bunch of other things to do with being on stage,
where the attention is on you, and not on you. How do you deal with that
sort of mixture of things? You do lots of hosting
panels, for example, and that kind of experience. VIV GROSKOP: Yeah,
I had to learn this over a long period of time. Because before I was really
confident doing a lot of stuff on my own, I started-- and this is a good
lesson for anybody who wants to do more speaking. Volunteer for the kind of-- I was going to say,
vice president role, but that's a bit grand. But volunteer to be the
moderator, volunteer to be the person
like Hannah did, being the person introducing. Volunteer to be part of
it, but not the keynote. And so then you have
to learn, sometimes, how to be on stage when
the attention isn't on you. And as you say, there
is a tendency sometimes, if you're on a panel or
you're an interviewer and somebody is giving a very
long answer, to be like-- [CHUCKLING] --to almost sort of overly show
how self-conscious you are. So you have to learn how to
have an active listening role. And it's annoying, I
don't have a pen with me, but I would-- do you have a pen? Great. So what I would often do
is have pointless pen. Pointless pen is very
useful for that role-- also in meetings. So it's going to avoid
you doing this or-- [LAUGHTER] We've all done that. So If you have
pointless pen, you're disciplined to hold it,
and be still, and just be actively listening. And that's useful, I think,
in meetings as well as in a public situation. Actually, an awards thing-- I have to do awards things
where there could be 27 awards. And there's loads of stuff
going on the stage and people having their photos taken, and
I have to stand there and not be like-- I can't check my
phone or look bored. And this could go
on over three hours. I have to be engaged. So I point this pen. MATT BRITTIN: Props. VIV GROSKOP: It's
my secret weapon. MATT BRITTIN: Props are
always good, absolutely. VIV GROSKOP: But
the other thing I want to say in relation
to that is, sometimes it doesn't matter that you
don't have anything to say. And that's really important
on a panel, as a moderator, in meetings. It doesn't always have
to be your turn to talk. Sometimes it can be your turn
to listen, to facilitate others. MATT BRITTIN: Yes, I think the
audience is always grateful when I just pass on
to the next person. It's always good. But actually, no,
that's true, isn't it? When you're in the audience,
you don't necessarily want everyone on
the panel to say, yes, let me just build on that. VIV GROSKOP: Exactly. MATT BRITTIN: It's
really annoying. VIV GROSKOP: Exactly. And on panels, what I love
is where the panelists talk to each other, and
the moderator says, in advance, please don't use me
as your safety net and as your, like, oh, I'd like
to speak next, but speak across each other. MATT BRITTIN: Yeah,
absolutely. [? Tess. ?] AUDIENCE: Hi. My question is
actually connected to what you're discussing now. I think, often,
at Google, we have to go out in groups
or pairs, and we might go to client events,
or various situations where you can't
all own the room. And sometimes it's obvious
who that leader is, and you might know it's my
turn to be low-presence. I guess my question
is around how do you recommend
dealing with that, either having that conversation
beforehand or even if you're in a low-presence role. How do you still own that moment
without taking the limelight from either one of your
colleagues or a client? VIV GROSKOP: Yeah,
for me, that's a happy high status question. And of course you need to have
a clear conversation, I think, as you would at any
performance event or-- who's going on first, how are
we going on together, who's going to be introducing her-- setting the parameters
and the expectations and the signposting is
not only good for you, but good for whoever you're
going to see, of like, oh yeah, this is the person
who's taking the lead. And you don't have to
say those things when you get into a meeting,
but you'll just show it in your body language. So being open and upfront
in agreeing those things. But also, the thing I learned
is it's not about you. It's not about you, and it
doesn't have to be about you. And I had to learn
that when I was doing-- sometimes when I was early on,
doing things like Graham Norton book tour or Dawn French
book tour and stuff, I would be really, really
nervous going on, and thinking, people need to know about me. This is a big audience. They should know about
me, and they should know that I'm a comedian. And oh my God, what if some
of them think I'm not funny? And I had to remind myself,
Viv, this is not about you. You are just there to be a
safety net for that person, to be the fall guy
if they need you. You've got to find your
other space, your own space to shine in. So knowing when it's your
moment and living up to it, and knowing when it isn't,
is really important. AUDIENCE: Thank you. MATT BRITTIN: Actually,
can I just add to that. Because one thing I think
really helps is preparation. So whether it's a
meeting or whatever, kind of once you're
really well prepared, then you can pay attention to
what's going on in the room. So something like this,
I actually prepare a lot for this kind of thing. So I've read your book, I've
listened to you podcasts, I know what I'm interested in. And then I can not
worry about what's the next question,
because I can just listen, and that sounds
really interesting. I think the same, I find,
applies in those meetings. You know the stuff,
and therefore you can relax and pay
attention to what's happening in front of you. And sometimes we're so
caught up in our own heads that we can't do that. I get that a lot. I've just realized I've now
taken the limelight when it should be yours. AUDIENCE: Thank you. Thank you so much for
coming to speak to us, Viv. I've enjoyed this so much. I promise I'll try
the power poses. But my question
was, do you think that the rules for
owning the room differ for women and for men? VIV GROSKOP: Yes. Well, this is the elephant
in the room, this question, isn't it, is it different
for women and for men? So the book is called
"How to Own the Room-- Women and the Art of
Brilliant Speaking." And there doesn't
need to be a book called "How to Own the Room-- Men and the Art of
Brilliant Speaking." It would not get published. The reason I wanted to write it,
and I wrote it in the way that I did-- which is by a woman,
for women, about women-- was that all of the other
material on this subject was by men, for men, about men. So you go back 10, 20
years, and the only examples are Martin Luther King,
Winston Churchill. They're all very classic,
and they're all very masculine examples. And I wanted to do something
that reflects the last 20 years, when we've had this
huge turnaround, largely due to digital media. Without digital media,
who would have ever seen Michelle Obama speaking at
the Democratic conventions? Even television hasn't had
as big an impact as YouTube, TED Talks, Facebook
Live, all of these things that give us immediate
access to women speaking. In terms of whether
audiences respond differently to men and women, I
think there is still something going on there, but
we don't really know what it is. And it's something that is
deep within our culture. Because I'm not sure
it's so bad now, but when I started
out as a stand-up, I would feel the energy
change in the room, of, oh, it's a woman,
that's a shame. And that's the truth. Because a lot-- even women. And women will often-- all women
stand-ups complain about this. Women come up to you at
the end and say, oh, I didn't expect you to be funny. I don't like women comedians-- women saying this. So there's a lot of cultural
baggage in this stuff that's difficult for us to talk
about and difficult to know why we feel this way. And for me, it's more important
just to let go of all that, and just let it be, and
do whatever you want to do to try and break through it. AUDIENCE: Thank you. MATT BRITTIN: I would recommend
the book, though, for men, because pretty much
everything in there is also really, really
helpful for anyone doing public speaking, I'd say. VIV GROSKOP: Yeah, and lots
of men who've read it and are into the podcast, which
only features women-- although I'm thinking of
having a token male series, maybe not-- they will say that this is
really not about gender, it's about trying
to do something to counter the
phenomenon of the alphas. So the alpha person who always-- and again, it doesn't have to
be the most high-status person. It could be a low-status
person who's just really noisy and takes up all the
energy in the room. And men feel that
as much as women. And it's wanting to find a way
to find your voice so that you get heard, and it's not just
the most charismatic, the most dynamic. Do you know what I mean? And there's loads
of other prejudices around this area as
well, like class, accent, how good-looking you are. The more good-looking
you are, the more people are going to listen to you. That's a prejudice that's
deep within us as well. So it's trying to break
through all of these things and finding a way to
be OK with yourself. MATT BRITTIN: Thank you. AUDIENCE: Great. Thank you so much. This was really hilarious,
and amazing to hear you speak. I was wondering--
my question is kind of similar to the whole
female-male dynamic, but more seniority level. So something, for
example, that I noticed in my team is our-- my boss's
boss, who is a director, is very funny, right? And he'll open up a
meeting, and always kind of do something funny
to kind of lighten the load and to make it a little bit-- to make it easy-going. However, when
you're more junior, it's actually tricky to do that. Sometimes you can do that
and fall flat on your face. So kind of knowing where
your place is in a meeting, or kind of what you
talked about earlier, I was wondering if there's
any kind of guidance you have around how much power you have. Like it's easy for
Matt to be hilarious. He's like the person
in EMEA, right? But if you're-- [LAUGHTER] MATT BRITTIN: (FEIGNING
SEVERITY) Laugh or you're fired. AUDIENCE: But you
know, you can be. You could just be like, voila. VIV GROSKOP: He's
the person in what? In EMEA? MATT BRITTIN: The region. AUDIENCE: But you
know what I mean. So how do you-- VIV GROSKOP: Oh, the region. AUDIENCE: Do you have
any experience with that? Have you seen people that are
more junior kind of pull it off, and to what degree? And I don't know, just what
are your thoughts around this? I know it's a little bit of a-- you know. VIV GROSKOP: No, it's a
really great question, and it's one that
comes up quite a lot. I do some work with
senior women in much more formal
organizations than this, where they are
preparing a big keynote, and they know there's
a lot resting on it, and they'd like to find
a moment of lightness or to make a joke
at the beginning, and they don't know if
they can get away with it. And a lot of it is
to do with risk. And you have to become really
expert at risk assessment, and you have to
choose your battles. So I think it's very
personalized to each situation as to how high a risk that would
be to try that joke and let it fall flat on your face. To try a joke or make a
comment, and for it to bomb can actually be a very
high status thing. Because you can
bounce back from it, and other people in
the room are very inspired when that happens. I was telling Matt
earlier about, earlier this week, I was
doing a publishing event with eight authors where I was
hosting everybody-- getting through it all,
interviewing them all, begging up their books. And the headline act was
going to be Bill Bryson, the multi-award-winning,
multi-massive-big-selling travel writer. And he hadn't turned up. And he wasn't going to come. He canceled. He genuinely couldn't
physically get there in the end. And they didn't
want me to say this until the end of the event. So I had this kind of
weighing on me throughout, of like, at the end, I've
got to manage this energy. And so I was quite
stressed, and nervous, and trying to camouflage that. And then as I came to interview
one of the last authors, the notes that I had
about her said that she'd written a contemporary debut. So I announced this, there's
this contemporary debut, how exciting, let's
speak to the author. And she sat down and I
said, congratulations on your first book. And she said, it's not my
first book, it's my third book. And how I bounced back
from that in that moment-- and I immediately was
like, oh, this is-- oh, no. I felt terrible for her
because I'd insulted her. I felt terrible for me because
I looked really stupid. And I felt bad, because I
knew that, after this, there was going to come a moment
where I had to say, yeah, also, by the way, guys, Bill
Bryson's not here. So in that split-second,
I had to recover and say, oh, I'm so sorry, but this
is a contemporary debut, so your previous books
must be historical. Tell us why you moved
into contemporary rather than historical. So quickly find something
to acknowledge my error, say sorry, move on. And afterwards,
everyone in the room-- it was the publisher
who published this book, so everyone in the
room had worked on-- everyone who'd worked on
the book was in the room. The guy who bought the book was
in the room, all of this stuff, all of my colleagues. And they all know
that I'm supposed to be the expert on how to
own the room and all of this. And they said, oh, we loved
watching you screw up. We loved it. And to me, that was a great
moment and a great lesson. Because it's good
to get things wrong. It's good to have
a joke fall flat. It's good to say the
wrong thing sometimes. AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. VIV GROSKOP: I
mean, these things are kind of easy for me to
say because I'm an outsider, I'm external, I do
not work in a company. And you need to also recognize
the limits of these things, and temper your expectations. Because you can't say the
same thing in a comedy club that you can say in
this environment, or at your Q4 marketing report. So you've got to adjust it. So you're not going to go into
the meeting and be Joan Rivers. But yeah, risk-- take risk. Why not? AUDIENCE: Thank you. That was really-- thank you. MATT BRITTIN: Huge
thanks to Viv Groskop. Thank you very much,
Viv, for coming. [APPLAUSE]
