How to Negotiate Your Tech Salary Simulation ft. Levels.fyi

are you searching for a tech job here's how to get paid more hey everyone i'm super excited to be doing an exponent plus levels.fyi negotiation simulation today in this simulation we're going to help you negotiate your offers for roles in tech like product management software engineering product marketing management technical program management and much more i'm here today with zaheer the co-founder of levels.fyi so here could you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and level.fyi before we jump into the simulation sure hey everyone uh my name is zaheer levels.fyi uh at our mission our mission is to help people make better career decisions and we're one of the most accurate websites for comparing salaries and compensation in tech and we aim to help you get paid more awesome well hopefully throughout the simulation today we're going to be doing three different scenarios where we're going to be pretend i'll be pretending like i'm a recruiter and here will be a candidate so i'll be a recruiter at a tech company which will be referred to as atc throughout this call um and here uh we'll be applying for the role and going through the interview process and basically what we'd like you to take away as a viewer from this call are simple important things that you need to know when you're negotiating your offer and moving through it um and so uh we're really excited to do the simulation with you today does it hear any other thoughts or comments before we jump into simulation number one which would be a simulation around uh before you start interviewing the company yeah i mean just at a at a high level negotiation is really all about leverage and so as we're kind of working through these scenarios keep a close eye and ear on what we're saying uh what we're talking about and specifically the type of words of the type of language that's being used and also the strategies that are being used so yeah just keep that in mind as we as we work through it awesome all right excited to jump in so i'm gonna go ahead and put my recruiter hat on and this scenario will be a scenario whereas here you're about to start interviewing for the company and you're having that first recruiter call all right um hey isa here super excited to have you interview with atc i'm the recruiter for atc uh my name is stephen i'll be helping you through this process uh but first i just wanted to have a quick conversation around what compensation might look like just to get some level setting going on sure yeah absolutely i'm excited i've heard a lot about atc i read a lot about it and excited to kind of go through this process awesome well we also love your profile so we're really excited to interview with you um just start off the bat it'd be really helpful if you could provide me with some expectations you have around compensation and what your previous compensation is in your current company yeah so i don't think um i'll be able to reveal my previous compensation i don't think it's actually allowed now these days to ask about that but um and i also haven't actually given it much thought on what i'd expect for my next role as compensation but i'd love to hear if you guys have a salary range in mind for this role and what you guys have budgeted for it got it got it sorry to uh be miss clear like you sort of uh don't need to know the exact numbers of your previous compensation but would love to just get a little bit of understanding maybe around kind of like your um expectations or what you're looking for in a role the reason i ask is it really helps us actually make you first and foremost in the interview process um if i know you're expected compensation i can make sure that you get the role in the salary that's best for you and so it usually increases people's salary i totally understand really appreciate that um you know honestly for me compensation kind of isn't really my end-all although it's important um obviously throughout um for for what i'm looking for but it's not the end-all for me and you know i'd rather make sure that we we match on team role uh the company culture all of that so i trust that we'll be able to come to a nice number later on in the process and i think we can discuss that later okay that sounds okay that sounds good i mean um what i can provide i know you asked about range so the range is around um you know a reasonable amount for a tech employee or you know sort of standard for the role um but uh do you have any sense of kind of like compensation or things that you might uh like you know even just like a rough number or a big range would be really helpful if you could provide something in that area yeah again i haven't given it much thought yet um but i'd love to hear do you guys have a specific range in mind for the role um and what what that looks like yeah um so i if i had we had to say a range it'd probably be around 80 to 100k based salary for this particular role um because it's super subject to change and would want to hear kind of like how that lands on you and and how it feels for you as a as a role and uh things like that yeah i'm still doing research um you know it sounds workable and i'm sure we can land on a good number later on in the process okay all right um i'm gonna go ahead and take my recruiter hat off and now we can debrief that conversation really quickly so does it hear um any reflections on how that went or what your strategy was in that conversation yeah so um first thing to know is that negotiations start really early people might be surprised or thrown off by the fact that a recruiter will sometimes ask about their compensation expectations in the first call and it's important to be prepared for that conversation and come in with you know some some strategies or some lines around how you want to handle that conversation uh deflection is the most powerful tool so you'll see that throughout the the process i was deflecting and saying hey i don't really have anything in mind i haven't given it much thought um and also you can flip the ques you can answer a question with another question so i flip the question back uh on you by saying hey what is the range for this role right um and you know sometimes it may help um even prior to this conversation to we actually suggest everyone go into into the job search knowing your worth that's important because sometimes let's say you let a number let loose uh at least that number is something that you've researched ahead of time and um you know we like to call it like a high anchor that you've set a high anchor um in the first in early conversations right so although you should never reveal any compen your compensation number um to recruiters um you know in in the worst case scenario where you do let one slip then always know your words so that you're setting a high anchor um and you're setting the tone for the rest of the conversation got it um super super helpful tips to hear and overall yeah to the the viewers like obviously i was trying to be very pushy as a recruiter not all recruiters are quite as pushy or may ask it in that way but um definitely some segments of what i said are things that are said to people and it's helpful to know yeah like you're not you don't have to provide your compensation you don't have to do any of those things and it's not a requirement even if it may seem like it is or it may seem usual for that to be the case um yep um and on that actually one more note um you'll notice that um you know he asked about my past compensation and in many states that's actually illegal for recruiters to ask for that and so i kind of touched on that in the call itself um gently in some ways you want to keep it gentle still and using mostly neutral language but that's something to know as well like those are your rights and you totally within uh your rights to actually deflect that and not not provide a number yeah and it sucks that a lot of people don't know that or maybe be misled in some of these conversations or may even accidentally share that um willingly so um yeah it's really helpful to have that tip um and and just to plug levels up hey you know if people want to find that anchor that you're mentioning here it sounds like people can go to levels.fyi and kind of look up the roles and get a rough sense of what they're going for yeah absolutely feel free to search your company or or find other similar companies and roles and um you know we have a ton of data on on how much people are getting paid so hopefully it's helpful cool all right so now we're going to go to the scenario 2. so in this scenario we're going to flash forward a little bit um we're going to imagine that z here went through the interview process and successfully succeeded perhaps he used exponents courses online and things like that um uh maybe he you know interviewed for a pm role or a software engineering role and he really crushed the interviews and so now he successfully got to the stage of an offer um so now what i'd like to talk about uh is we'll have that conversation where the recruiter first tells the hero about the offer and this offer will be time based and this is a really common thing it's often called like an exploding offer colloquially by people um and we'll have that conversation and we'll see how zaheer kind of handles it and we'll go walk through it anything else to preface this one before we jump into it here uh no i think i think you've covered it cool um okay uh hazel here uh incredible news uh the atc team we loved you we loved your interviews um you really crushed it uh we'd actually love to offer you a position with our company um and so we're super super excited to give you this position um i will say unfortunately that the we're hiring really quickly we're like a super fast startup growing quickly as you know and so there are often things that change all the time and so we will need to know by end of next week at the latest otherwise we unfortunately won't be able to honor the offer anymore um and the offer just to give you a sense is about 100k based salary with um you know 7k rsus we can talk more about that later um but it is this is a this is a verbal offer um if you do uh want to accept the offer we can then send you over that offer i'm super super excited but again we'll we will need to know by end of next week or else we unfortunately can't guarantee the position yeah so first of all thanks for thanks definitely thanks for the offer i'm super excited you know this has been in some ways it's just been a learning process and i've i've loved everyone that i've spoken to there throughout my interviews and it's it's just i'm really excited to basically come on board that said um this is a big decision for me and i do want to make sure i have time to kind of adequately um you know compare everything that i need to figure out um everything that i need to um do you mind if i get another uh week or two to decide i know you guys have things on your end but again this is a very big personal decision and you know i'd love to have a little bit more time um to to discuss with my family and with some of my mentors yeah um great to hear your interests are here um it is a really tough time for us and just in terms of speed and things like that we have a lot of candidates coming in we have a lot of other really qualified candidates we did really love you um you know i'd be curious to hear is there something wrong with the offer or something like that that would need more time um you know we feel like this is a really great fit and we are making an offer um a little disappointed to hear that maybe you might need more time and it's not a clear decision for you yeah so um actually it would be great if um to help me evaluate if you can actually send me a written offer that way i can take a look at all the details and review everything and you know it also helped me make a decision i'm having those numbers in front of me that said again it's i'm super excited about the role really i just want to make sure that um you know this again this is a huge decision for me so i really want to make sure that i'm coming in with a clear head and i'm able to chat with all the people that i need that said um do you actually have some time to speak with a hiring manager sometime next week um yeah totally we can definitely uh talk to the hiring manager um if that's something that you're looking for or what would you be hoping to get out of that yeah um i'm just looking to learn a little bit more about the team um you know the interviews are great but again i think there's um you know some things that i wasn't able to glean in the interviews just because of the the time uh and things so i i'd really love to talk to the hiring manager just to get to know more about his team um and specifically you know how um you know career progression on his team is and things around that um and that said uh i do want to make sure that i have adequate time before and after the call um to actually really evaluate let that call kind of sink in um and make sure that i get any questions cleared up so uh again i'm super excited for the role i just want to make sure that you know that we're both this is both we're both a great fit um and uh and yeah um okay is it here i think that can work i can set you up a call with our hiring manager um i think he'd love to chat with you and we'd love to generally just chat with you on the team but uh i will say like people are at the team really excited about you and we wouldn't want you to be really excited so i'm not totally sure we can move that deadline but i'll see what we can do we're really looking for someone who's really excited about the team and you know i wouldn't want to jeopardize your chances of joining the team just because of a delayed offer or something like that um so yeah totally interesting yeah um go ahead yeah i just appreciate anything you can do i just want to make sure that i have um all the info and facts as i move forward that said i do want to step back a little um you mentioned some of the numbers um i just wanted to clarify uh the the equity portion of it um is the vesting schedule over four years and what percentage for each of those four years is um is investing right it's a four year uh investing timeline with a 25 cliff and after all those four years or you'll you'll progress 25 each year okay so just to clarify 25 of equity vests each year um so you know if that was a 70k grant basically i'd be getting 25 of that in each year right that's correct cool yes um and um do you guys have any 401k plan um or other sort of like commuter benefits or things um i just want to make sure that i'm evaluating the entire offer uh completely and holistically yeah totally um so we do have a 50 401k matching plan and you have commuter benefits as well like tax deductible commuter benefits sweet cool thanks um cool uh yeah i'm glad you asked those questions is really helpful just to get a sense of uh for your offer so just one last thing on this conversation before we kind of move forward um we don't typically do written offers uh until people are for sure accepting it so like if you'd like a written offer just let me know i can send it over to you but only after you sort of have verbally accepted it yeah that's understandable i just want to make sure that i'm able to review all the terms in the offer because you know sometimes that can that can affect what what really happens for me so i'd i love if you can send over some form um some form of of the offer in writing even if it's not the complete final form it will just help me evaluate all the different terms and conditions there okay yeah we can send over something informal maybe not a formal uh offer but an informal sense of the numbers great thanks okay um all right see here i'm gonna take off that recruiter hat and we're gonna debrief this call um how do you think it went or what were some of the things that you were doing going into this conversation yeah um i get like my mind going into this conversation and these types of conversations as always you don't want to make any decisions on the call about the offer really this is a chance for you to ask questions [Music] and you again you want to show that you're committed to the company um companies want to see that that you're committed as well and um part of this is ensuring that you want to make sure that you're not wasting uh the recruiter's time and and you know they want to see that you their time is not being wasted right so really um having having all of that um set out is is i think important um being gracious number one the second thing is really try to force their hand if they're not giving time for to have like an exploding deadline of like a week or whatever forced their hand by maybe requesting another meeting with the hiring manager so that's a tactic that um that you could use is by by having another event in between now when that event happens when i have a meeting with the hiring manager i can come back to the recruiter and be like hey i had a great call um you know but there are some things that i want to make sure i clear up with my mentors or whatever that the hiring manager mentioned um it would be great if i had another week or something right so set yourself up for the future as well um by you know creating opportunities to ask for an extension later on as well um even if you're not able to get that extension to the first call um and really i think you know recruiters are tend to be fairly pushy on deadlines um they've invested a couple months and several hours of their engineering you know their engineers time their hiring manager's time not just engineers if it's a pm role they've invested time of their employees at the company um and so they've already invested so much into you they don't want to let you go they don't want you know this offer to not work out they want this offer to work out right um and so you know don't treat it as like an adversarial relationship treat it as something that you know you want to work together to get that right outcome um and yeah whenever again you whenever you get in like a tough situation feel free to deflect or blame it on others like hey i need to talk to my mentor or i need to talk to my wife or my family or whatever so yeah just a couple tactics to use uh in that very important call that's awesome those are great tips um i one thing i also just wanted to call out that i think you did really effectively was ask about the offer and get all the details on the call as you could um and then also um i know getting in writing was something important to you can you talk a little bit more about what you might do let's say like i was still stubborn and i was still not giving that offer and writing like how would you deal with that or how would you handle that scenario yeah so um you know it's funny like there's some some a lot of companies don't actually like to give written offers these days and written offers are useful especially when you're negotiating with another company and you want to use that offer as as a counteroffer essentially as leverage and so one way that you can actually get something in writing is by perhaps fault sending an email to the recruiter hiring manager and asking um you know uh restating the offer essentially and asking hey is this did i capture the details correctly does this make sense and now when the recruiter or hiring manager applies with yes this is you know that you captured all the details then you can use that as kind of like written proof for evidence for for other companies so you know it's it's kind of sneaky but it's it's a good tactic if if companies are uh are really insistent and not giving a written offer super helpful super helpful stuff to say here um i do want to move on to the third conversation that we're gonna have um and this conversation is going to be uh after zaheer has extended the offer he's taken some time to review it um but now he'd like to negotiate on that compensation to get the compensation that he feels like is the best fit for him um and so the way this conversation will go is um it'll be on a video chat but um here i know you uh have some thoughts on why it would be better done on email so maybe you can share that um as well but we'll we'll try to simulate this like a situation on uh video chat and it may not be exactly how it plays out but um i'll just kind of restate the offer and then here we'll we'll try to negotiate with it um anything before we jump into this here um no i think you captured it um yeah great okay um so hey za here um super excited again you know the offer that i mentioned it's 100k based salary 70k rsus um super excited to have you join the team uh would love to hear sort of yeah what you're thinking and what your updated thoughts are yeah so um if i'm calculating it correctly um it comes out to about um you know around 135 140 in total compensation did i capture that correctly um well we are giving you 70k and rsus and 100k base so that's actually 170 in compensation uh but the 70k is spread over four years is that right so each year basically i'd only be receiving 25 of that that's correct yes okay cool yeah i just want to make sure i'm taking a look at the annual compensation um uh correctly um you know i've uh you know i'm super excited again about the company and the role i just want to mention that it was great chatting with the hiring manager and chatting with the team during the interviews so um you know again super excited about the role i've been thinking about compensation um and you know obviously um it's uh it's important to me uh to ensure that you know i i'm able to provide for my family and everything um at the same time it's not kind of like the end-all but i do wanna make sure i'm being paid fairly um i was hoping based on some of the market data i've seen whether we can raise that um total compensation yearly to closer to 160k um you know again i know you that you might not have an immediate decision um and you might need to talk to folks on your team but you know i'd love to get that number uh moved up uh to 160k got it i i'm helpful to hear where your head's at to here um you know we're we're a lean fast growing startup it's really tough for us to to kind of grow and honestly we usually like kind of skipping these negotiation conversations because we feel like we've tried to inflate the offer a little bit higher knowing all this negotiation stuff um so we typically don't really negotiate on the offer um is is you know something else wrong with the offer or the company or the opportunity or that you'd want to change that uh yeah i i again i get want to be really clear i'm super excited about the role super said about the company i just want to make sure that you know for me i see this as like an investment in the long run i'm going to be giving it all to this company for a number of years and you know i want to make sure that throughout that time um you know i'm going to be fairly compensated and that way you know i'm not looking at other companies later on i see this as really an investment on my end um as well i'm going to be spending a lot of time there and i want to make sure that you know that i'm going to be happy and in the long run i think it aligns both of us for success okay um super hopeful to hear is it here i guess do you have a competing offer or something else uh otherwise i'm not totally sure we can negotiate if there isn't like another offer or competing thing going on yeah so um you know i mean i'm in the chats with um a couple companies and you know i do again i want to reiterate that i'm super excited about the role and so i haven't mentioned it as much in the past that i have other companies that i'm considering i do have a competing offer um as well and you know unfortunately i can't share the numbers right now um but it is competitive and you know if we are able to get to 160k i do think that i'd be able to sign kind of on the spot got it and so here we i mean i guess could you share the numbers um it would be really helpful if you could email it to me like the offer that you have so we can take a look yeah you know honestly um i'd love to do that but um a lot of companies are um you know would like to keep their offers confidential and just like how you know i wouldn't want to share your offer with with another company i want to make sure that i keep their offers private as well and you know i do think though that you know it's a it's a competitive offer um and um i'm i'm super excited about this team um i really think that you know i'd be happy to sign right away if we can get to 160k got it okay um let me take it to the teams here and i'll let you know um thanks for writing this context and information sweet yeah awesome all right uh my recruiter hat comes off and again uh here i would love to hear what you were going for that conversation and how it went yeah absolutely um so the key thing the first thing is that you want to make sure that you're always taking into account everything picture right um and the the the reason at in in a previous call i asked about like the vesting schedule the 401k any uh other sort of even non-monetary compensation things and the reason you want to do that is to show the recruiter and to set the impression that you're you're very savvy right um you want to make sure that you're understanding your offer correctly um not just so that you know the numbers but also to communicate to the recruiter that hey you're you're evaluating their offer for all its kind of worth so to speak right um and that way the recruiter can't come at you and be like oh like did you consider this we also have a 401k or we also have this did you factor these things in right if it gets to that then you know you almost get cornered in some ways because they'll be like oh um you know yes our offer is x amount but if you factor in you know this this and this it comes out to to some other amount um so you want to make sure you're not being cornered and that you're you're evaluating the offer holistically and you're communicating to the recruiter that you've actually evaluated all aspects of the offer um and that's why we also suggest actually negotiating on the total compensation number right so you'll notice that i broke it down by year and was negotiating on the annualized amount um and you know it's a very standardized way of looking at compensation and so most companies are okay with actually looking at it that way and when you have that type of con when you when you're negotiating on on the total compensation um it you know it provides more flexibility for both parties to get you to that to your target compensation right um so i was also i want to make clear that i was you know i came in with the number in mind a target number uh 160k in this case right and again it's it's usually helpful and we suggest folks actually have once you're at this stage and once the company has shown their hands around what the compensation is now it's okay to provide a number of what your target number is because now they've already shown their hands so you know now there's there's not much else to to lose so to speak right um and so by by negotiating for that total compensation number you know i can i can ask it in different ways can you increase the sign-on bonus can you increase the rsus and it gives flexibility for both parties to be actually reached that outcome and so yeah i think kind of to summarize that point um you know negotiate on total compensation um communicate that you understand the offer fully um to to the recruiter right taken to ask questions when they uh when they present the offer to you so that they know that you're savvy and they know that you're taking everything into account um and lastly you know really know your worth you know have a target number in mind when you come into these conversations you should know what you generally want and i will say that almost for every single offer that's given out there's always like five to ten percent of wiggle room so no matter what number that they give you never kind of accept an offer blindly uh there's always wiggle room typically um you know companies that won't give their like maximum uh offer to you out the gate they it's a mutual kind of understanding that everyone negotiates or people negotiate uh and so you know you want to make sure that you do negotiate otherwise you're leaving that money on the table totally super super helpful to hear and i just one thing i want to call out that i think is really effective that you're doing is sometimes i'm asking the same question twice or i'm asking the same question in multiple ways and you simply say no or like sorry that i can't do that um and you're sort of like calm and collected as you do that and just sort of saying that like yeah sorry i'm not going to give that information um and it can feel really scary in the moment for people so i do want to recognize this emotional component of like oh my gosh i have to keep saying no to someone or i have to keep like you know i i don't know maybe maybe i feel bad about it um but i i do want to encourage folks watching like this is an opportunity for you to to get your worth and get the value that you deserve for the company and um i love the ways to hear phrase it where it's like really you're gonna give this company your all um and so you know you want to make sure that that compensation makes sense for you and it makes sense for the company uh in both directions um so i i i want to pause there and just see if there's any kind of like last tips and things like that um is it here if you have for people but before you jump into those tips um folks if you're watching right now definitely comment below and let us know if you have questions both zahir and i will be watching this video to help out and answer questions support you and your journey we know this is a really tough anxious scary process sometimes and um it's filled with a lot of unclear scenarios and things like that so definitely let us know in the comments below and do please like and subscribe this video if you feel like it's helpful for you um but yeah so here if you have any other like closing out thoughts or tips uh about the interview process uh or some of the uh negotiation process yeah like as you saw this conversation is pretty hard to have it's a very like nerve-wracking conversation for a lot of folks and obviously like you know i can i can appear cool and collected now because it's not you know nothing's really on the line in this mock interview but it's um you know when it's when when it push comes to shove and you're actually on the call with the recruiter um most people actually will get very nervous and so we actually recommend most folks to actually take the negotiations offline um you know have these conversations over email um you know and sometimes the recruiter will get on the call and be like okay this is we're able to increase the numbers to the like xyz number is that okay with you again anytime they present numbers or something you can always be like hey can i get back to you i want to make sure i discuss this with my wife or my mentor or whatever right um so always try to deflect and your escape out of all of these you know tough situations or tough conversations is hey can i get back to you um you know you can always come back to the recruiter and typically they're always okay with you know coming back and you taking some a bit of extra time to actually think about it so you know again we suggest folks to actually take the negotiations over email and you know write it out write out what you want to say um it's much easier to come in with a clear head when you actually have time to sit down write it out um and you know when the recruiter comes back with you know a similar written email then again it gives you um time and um and you can you can kind of think through it with the clear head um so so highly suggest really taking those conversations uh offline off the phone totally great stuff so here um i do want to close up this video and just let folks know watching if you are interviewing for a tech role this video is a part of exponent exponent is an online tool and resource and community to help you advance your career in tech we believe that interviewing shouldn't be so alone and so we have a thousand plus person community of people interviewing for roles in product management software engineering technical program management and much more so check us out at tri-exponent dot com or subscribe to this video um and the here also so great to have you as a guest uh from levels.fyi um we'd love to hear a little bit more about levels.fyi before we close out this video yeah um so again levels is we're one of the most accurate websites for tech compensation the way that we do that is we actually collect w-2 statements and offer letters from candidates and we use that to ensure that all of our data is valid and verified essentially and so you know the data that you see on our site has passed like you know we typically review that data very heavily um and we're constantly kind of reviewing and improving that data um and we have uh you know thousands uh tens of thousands of data points now of compensation at tech companies and careers so i really encourage you when you're in the process of you know figuring out your work to actually go to the site check out some of the numbers check out the different companies how much they pay and figure out a pay range for yourself recently we actually started a negotiation service as well so if you're really struggling with negotiations or you want you know an extra hand to help you throughout the process we can actually help we have former recruiters on staff you know former recruiters from companies like amazon and facebook that can actually walk you through the negotiations and we actually give people scripts of exactly what to say what not to say um and um you know this is really to help people negotiate we feel like it's a very kind of adjacent space that we want to be in um to help people negotiate and really get their fair words so again if you if you're going throughout the negotiation process and if you need a bit of help or if you'd like more strategies and things definitely reach out to us and we're happy to help with that as well awesome well folks thank you so much for watching i really appreciate it good luck on your upcoming interview and [Music] negotiations [Music] you

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Length: 34min 25sec (2065 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 02 2020