- Do you ever feel just
kind of bad about yourself? Or maybe you should be thinner or smarter, and I mean definitely a better mom, right? I know many of us think these things and you might not even
realize that your stuff is actually playing a really
big role in how you feel. So Dr. John Delony is in town today. He's a mental health expert
and author of the book "Own Your Past, Change Your Future." And so I thought we could
visit with him and get his take on toxic clutter. How do we detach from it,
move it out of our house, and start to feel so much
better about ourselves? So today we're gonna
talk about toxic clutter. I was talking with a
group of women about this and well first we have to
define what toxic clutter is and then we'll talk about all the things that came to mind for them. So toxic clutter is anything that makes us feel bad about ourselves. When we look at it, we feel overweight, we feel like we're
irresponsible with our money. We feel like we can't stand up to others. The list goes on and on. So it's those things in our house that when we look at it, it brings up really bad
thoughts and emotions. - What's an example of that? - Examples are clothes that don't fit, exercise equipment we're not using, hobby items that we're not using, projects we've started
and haven't finished. And oh, another good one that came up was what do I do with the photos
after I've gotten divorced? - [John] Oh man. - Maybe you can help
us understand why do we feel this obligation to keep
this stuff in the first place? And then we can talk about
sorting through if we get rid of it or not. - I think when with those
items you just mentioned we buy things like exercise equipment. We buy things like clothes thinking that we are gonna feel a certain way when we achieve whatever
these things symbolize. And in counseling, we call it the tyranny of
accomplishing all your dreams. If you lose a hundred pounds, the best part about that is
you just lost a hundred pounds. The worst part of it is
you went with you, right? - Mm-hmm, yeah. - You get the new date,
you get the new shirt, you get the new car, you go with you. And we have this illusion
that that's gonna solve us. So that's number one. Number two is if we don't make it, it's just this idol of shame. And so I can't let that go yet, because then I'd be admitting
that I can't get out of debt, I can't lose my weight. I can't quit eating whatever. And so we just keep it. 'Cause once we admit it,
then I've gotta own it. - 'Cause it feels like, well if I get rid of the clothes
that are two sizes smaller, that means I'm just
committing to being the size for the rest of my life then. - I'm a quitter. I'm a failure. And those are all identity markers. - Right, and I think for a lot of us too, if I'm looking at maybe the blender in the kitchen that I bought from an infomercial and I, in my mind I'm thinking the
only way to make this right is to start using it
and to find the recipes and to start using the blender. And that's really the only way I can think of to like right this wrong purchase. - Yeah.
- And again, if I get rid of it, then I suck. - Well, and it's there's that
sunk cost fallacy, right, that happens with businesses. Your business is losing
money and you can't just, you're like I've already put
a million dollars into it, so I might as well put $2 million into it. We don't ever ask ourselves a question, is this thing gonna make it? We're like, we're already this far so we gotta just keep going. And there's something magic about saying, okay I put a million
bucks in this company, it's not gonna work. I'm gonna grieve this. I'm gonna be sad about it, and now I'm gonna do
something else with my life. - Right. - I bought something stupid. Okay, I bought something stupid. I'm gonna go on about my life. - Right, but so then, okay, if we do just say, okay I'm just gonna box all this stuff up. I'm gonna donate it. I'm gonna sell it on marketplace. Now, still here I am and John, like I actually really
do need to lose weight. Or I really did wanna make scrapbooks for all of my grandkids. So now do I just accept like, okay well this is where I am now. - I like to use those moments as data. So I bought a treadmill and
I'm gonna run 24 miles a day. I'm gonna lose all this
weight on this treadmill. And then nine months later
it's piled over with clothes and it's just sitting there. And my husband or wife is
just banging up against it and they're annoyed by it. I still need to take care of my body. I'm gonna be a good steward of my body. I've got to come up with some
ways I'm gonna be healthy. And I can also say it's not
gonna be on a treadmill. - Yeah, yeah. - It's not mutually exclusive. So this particular path
didn't work for me. I've got pairs of running shoes 'cause I'm just gonna turn into a runner, and I always forget. They'll come in the mail, my wife will be like, "Oh, so we're doing, you're trying this again?" And I'm like, ah geez. But I have stumbled on in my garage like a small home gym
that really works for me. And so it's not quitting
just because I ran up against a thing. I bought this cool blender
to like make smoothies on infomercial. I'm not a smoothie guy. So I'm gonna say that was stupid. I should have thought through that. Maybe I can practice
before I go buy something. So I'm gonna get rid of it. I'm gonna move on with my day. - Well and I found too
that most often I don't need the thing to be healthy. Like I could use the shoes
I have and go walk outside and then reward myself
with a new pair of shoes when I'm like, oh yeah, I've been doing
it for a couple weeks and my feet hurt 'cause
I don't have good shoes. Right?
- That's right. - And so we start the habit
and then we reward ourselves. Like I could be a healthy
person eating wise even without a blender. - That's right. It's when I found out my granddad, I grew up in Texas. We come from a hunting family. And I had all of this really fancy like disappearing camouflage gear. This like high tech and research, but, and when I found
out my granddad hunted in like a red flannel shirt and jeans, and he did just fine. And I was like, oh, it's not the gear. I don't need more junk, man. I, I've seen to shut up
and go be quiet and sit. You know what I mean? So yeah, it's always, that's always the joke now
is I just need more gear. No you don't man. You just need to go and
have fun with your life. - And so do you think though, we'll talk about like the
divorce photos in a second, but do you think if we
would be willing to let this stuff go from our house, do you think that's
gonna make a difference on our mental health? How we feel? So is is it worthwhile to do this? - This is very unpopular
and it's just the science and we were talking about this before, OCD, ADHD, anxiety, all these things have a
direct neurological response to chaos in an environment. I wish that wasn't the case, but it's just true. And so when you look over
the last hundred years if you just took a graph
of stuff accumulation and the mental health statistics, you can just lay 'em on top of and they look exactly the same. We were surrounded by so much junk and our brains can't process it. And you put on top of
that how much of that junk is purchased with a credit card. And our brains know we're not safe, because we owe this person
money and that person money, it's just too much. And so, yes, I hear it all the time. I feel it all the time. People start decluttering
and start getting rid of so much stuff and they find peace. And like I'm not so anxious anymore. I'm sleeping better. My kids aren't all wound up all the time. - Yeah, yeah, so it's
worth taking the loss and getting it out of your house. So, okay those were kind of
actually fairly simple examples. What about if wedding
photos, if I'm divorced, what about gifts that my parents gave me and expect to see when they come over? Items that I've inherited? Do I have some kind of obligation? Is there like this moral obligation for me to keep this stuff? - So I'll put divorce photos over here 'cause I think it's is fabulous question. No one's ever asked me that, and I wanna work through that one. I think when it comes to keeping gifts other people gave us, meeting other people's expectations. That comes from a place where I am trying to outsource my value to other people. I'm giving other people input
on whether I have value, whether I'm worthy,
whether I'm a good mom, whether I'm a good dad,
or I'm a good husband, a good wife. And that's, you'll chase that right
off the edge of a cliff. Right?
- Sure. - And so it's asking yourself what is the greatest gift I
can give for my family when they come to visit? A peaceful home - Yeah.
- And if a peaceful home is not having 14 cake
plates piled up in the, let's give rid of some cake plates. And if mom asks, I'm gonna look at my mom, and I'm gonna tell her the truth. Yeah, I met somebody at work
that really needed that. And so I let them have
it 'cause I had seven. I had seven. And it's not an indictment of your mom. And if your mom, here's the thing. If your mom chooses to let that inform her mental health. That's her grown up choice to do. But I'm not gonna own that. - And I think that's maybe sometimes the disappointing part is it could
reveal maybe some weaknesses in our relationship. - It always does. - Yeah, and we're like, oh like, and so here I am trying to
manage how they're gonna respond. And what we don't realize is like, well if it's not the cake plate, they're probably gonna find
something else to pick a fight about or whatever. - And it's been my experience that women are way disproportionately put in the role of peacekeepers and they
are way disproportionately put in the position to be responsible for the emotional regulation of the adults in their in their lives. So it's- - And to manage the stuff in the house. - That's right. - Yeah.
- Right, and so, that's not your job. Your job isn't to make
sure mom doesn't get mad. Your job isn't to make sure
dad doesn't lose his temper. That's their grown up job. And if they can't handle it, then they just, they're not invited. My job is to make sure that
I'm in sync with my partner. That I've got a home and
a life that is peaceful. I can build an non-anxious life, so that people who enter into it can go. (John sighing) That's a great gift. - Yeah okay, so then let's circle back
to the divorce photos and. - Okay, the divorce photos. So, I was having a conversation
with somebody recently and it was a fabulous conversation. Husband and wife were talking. Husband says, "Hey you never
asked me about people I used to date," And his wife's response was,
"Yeah, I couldn't handle it." They've been married for years. And I thought, that's a strange question. Like I of course as the counselor, I like wanna jump in, like wait a minute. Sounds like there's parts
of him you don't accept. And she said, "Yeah, you're right but I still don't wanna
go down that rabbit hole." And so I backed out and I was like, okay, let me think through this, because I know the only way truly to heal from anxiety is directly through it. - [Dawn] Okay, yep, yep. - You gotta go through it. - Yep.
- And what would I think, I've been married to the
same person for 20 years. What would I think if
she'd been married before? Would I wanna sit down and
look at their wedding photos? Right?
- Right. - That's hard. And so this is one of those
cases I think is kind of messy. And I think it's probably gonna
depend on person to person. What I always wanna ask myself is why am I keeping this photo? And why am I getting rid of this photo? If I'm getting rid of this photo so my new boyfriend, my new husband, my new wife, they can't handle it. That's gonna be a red
flag in your relationship, because they're marrying somebody who's already been married before. You've already been on a honeymoon before. You've already said, "I love you" before. You've already said "I'm
in this forever" before. If I'm marrying into
that, I've gotta own that. I've gotta be a part of this and I don't wanna get
my nose rubbed in it. You know what I mean? So it's both, and if I'm keeping these photos, is it because I still have
some emotional attachment to what was? Is it because I've got
kids and that's their mom and we're gonna, I'm not gonna dishonor their mom. It's a broad question, but I think there's
something about making peace with the roads we traveled
and really looking forward. So when you sent the question, I actually called a buddy on the way over who had been divorced and
said he felt an immense amount of peace when he deleted the last photo. He said, I just felt lighter. - Okay, interesting. - Like, I'm in this new relationship. I'm in this new world and it's
not like it didn't happen. But I'm living my life this way. And there's no kids involved. So there there was less complexity. But that spoke to me. Like I'm free of this. - Yeah, and so maybe it is just saying let's just remove the obligation. There's no one, there's there's actually no one saying you have to keep this. So then you have the freedom to choose. Yeah, I can look at that. It was a good day. Like I've heard women say, "Well I really loved my wedding day and I loved seeing the
people that were there, my bridesmaids." And so if you look at those
photos and you're like, yeah, I like being reminded of that day. Then that's great. But if it's more on the toxic
end of the scale of like, wow that brings up every other emotion. - Right, yeah. - Then you would have permission
to let those photos go? - Yeah and I, I think we're in a strange place. I tend to go back and say, okay, how did our brains
get from there to here? And you know, photographs
are one or 200 years older and then they became everywhere
just 20, 34 years ago. - Sure, yeah. - Our brains don't have
the wiring to see pictures of itself at four or five years old. This is new. We're asking something new of our bodies. And so we were designed
to have these experiences these traumas, these good moments, and they become integrated
into who we are. The old saying your childhood biography becomes your adult biology. That's very true. We aren't designed to go
back and look at pictures of ourself when we're
20 and compare our per. So we're in uncharted waters. And so my default setting
has changed over the years. I delete way more photos than I keep, because I'm more interested
in living in the present, and working towards the future than I am trying to
park myself in the past. I tend to look at pictures
of my kids in the past and be like, oh, remember
when they used to, and remember. And I begin to compare it to them now, and that's not healthy. It's just not. And I love the pictures of
my kids when they're young. Oh it's so beautiful and great, and I remember hugging 'em, but that does take away from
my 12 year old a hairy legged smelly seventh grader now. It does, right? - Right, right. - Because I compare 'em to
remember when we used to, it's different now. - It's true. - And I need to be fully locked in here, so I'm more on the delete it. Take fewer photos, and live more in your present. That's just me. - Yeah, and I do think, we didn't mention it on the list. I do think kids stuff can become guilty or toxic clutter too when you feel like you need to archive their whole childhood. - It's insane. It is absolutely insane. We've made our children the
centers of our universes and they can't carry that weight. They're not designed to carry that weight. - Yeah, that's good. Okay, two more questions. One, 'cause I do wanna circle
back to the financial burden of this stuff too. But what if we inherited a bunch of stuff? Maybe it was my husband's,
I don't want it. I don't wanna manage it. I have no emotions,
memories attached to it. And frankly, I don't even
know if he really does. But he just feels like he's expecting to keep it.
- I've gotta keep it, yeah. - How do you navigate that? - I had this conversation with myself. So I had, my granddad
died several years ago. He's a World War II Vet. He lived to be 94. He is an amazing guy. And we had a pretty close connection. He had a suit jacket like, but it was one I'll never wear. It was old school, but it was his. And I was going through my closet and I was cleaning stuff
out and then I was, I try to do these make
these loops like stuff just accumulates in our house. Making the loop out. And I picked it up and
I started to put it back and I had this thought
and I said it out loud, "My granddad is not inside this jacket. This jacket is not the representation of my relationship with my granddad." I will never wear this. And now I'm allowing a
memory of a man that I love to weigh me down in the present. And I sent it away. And in no way has it
diminished my relationship. And so the way me and
my wife navigate this is what makes sense in our home. Is there a piece of
furniture we actually need? And it's cool to have an
old piece of furniture. I'm not going to disrupt
my daily day to day life to shove something in there. It is pseudo honoring. If it takes cramming a piece
of old particle board furniture in your house to honor your
dad or mom who's passed, you did a terrible job honoring. You know what I mean? That's not honor, right? It's clutter, it's just garbage. And so I think it's removing ourselves from these objects and being able to, it's an avoidance of grief. - Well I say, I think I've heard you say that "Guilt is sometimes misplaced grief." - That's right.
- Right, that perhaps we're not
done grieving that person. - We haven't grieved them. And we've placed them in objects and we're gonna drag that object around from apartment to apartment
to house to house. Pretending mom is still with us. Mom's not, mom's gone. Mom's here, but mom is gone. And mom's in the letters. That's great. But mom's gone. And it's fully grieving that and then man, then you can get rid
of that dresser drawers that's just killing you. - Yeah, well and you know
the last time we visited, we talked about that how
grief needs a witness, and I challenged the
women in our private group to be like, okay, let's process with each other. If you have items in your house, like share it, tell us the story, and then just let me know, does that make it easier
to pass that item on? And hands down they were like, wow, I feel like I can
let this item go now, because I told the story of
it and I shared about it. So I do think sometimes we
have to invite someone else into this process.
- Always. A hundred, every time. There's not a time that you can't, that you can grieve fully
without other people. And I also think it's not
just when you lose somebody. It's grieving, my daughter is in first grade now. She's not a toddler, and
so her little ram scrambles whatever's drawing of wolf
dragons that she was drawing. Like I keep those
drawings 'cause I haven't grieved the fact that she's
not a toddler anymore. She's growing up. And so grief happens at
this micro level too. It's just acknowledging things were and now things are, and I'm gonna honor that gap, and then I'm gonna go on about my day. I'm gonna put that stuff in the trash, because it's not good art. It's terrible. - Yeah, okay so real quick then, let's just circle back
to the burden of debt. So a lot of this toxic clutter. The reason it is toxic
is because I look at it and I say I spent a lot of money on that. And so I've heard it said recently that what's really
difficult for us as humans is to forgo an immediate
thing that's gonna make us feel good for a bigger goal like getting out of debt. So to pass up Black Friday
is gonna be coming up, all the shopping. So to pass that up for this bigger goal of getting out of debt
and living that way. And so what encouragement
would you have today for someone who needs to continue to make those decisions, but they feel really hard right now? - So if I distill down all
the mental health diagnostics if you will, not all of them, but most of the big ones
like depression, anxiety, those kind of things. They're just simply our body
trying to get our attention. And it usually tries to get our attention for one of three things. It's an alarm system. But trying to get our attention for, it's found us without other people and we're co-regulate
to live in the presence of other people. You found yourself alone. And if you had woke up on
the planes of Minnesota 3000 years ago.
- Yeah, you're in trouble. And your tribe left you, you're gonna die. Our brains know that. - Yeah.
- We're not safe. You're in an abusive relationship. You're in an abusive work environment. And the third one is autonomy. You don't get to make decisions about what happens to you tomorrow. If I owe somebody money, it was this light bulb moment
I had six or seven months ago. My brain knows we're not safe. My brain knows if one thing gets sideways we are without a home, without vehicles, right, without food. My brain knows that I'm not
making decisions for tomorrow. Best Buy credit is,
Toyota Motor Company is. They're deciding what I do tomorrow. My boss is, not me. And our brains will slowly
start to buzz the alarms. You're not safe. You're not safe. You're not safe. And so getting out of
debt for me used to be this idea of financial freedom. I can do whatever I want. I can give recklessly. It's become a much deeper
proposition for me. Now, it's about I can sit with
my kids and be fully present. I can sleep all night 'cause my brain isn't
saying we're not safe, we're not safe, we're not safe. It just can go, we can go to sleep, 'cause I got other people
and I'm not being abused. And so what I would suggest, if you just got that low level
buzz of anxiety all the time, if you have that low
level buzz of this time, it's just depression, like I just don't wanna get out of bed. I just don't wanna live the life that I've created for myself
or that I've inherited. Begin to look at ways
you can unhook yourself from other people making
decisions in your life. And that starts with
who do I owe money to. And so I'm not gonna go to Black Friday, because I value my sleep more. I'm gonna buy a bunch
of junk on Cyber Monday, but I've budgeted for it
and I've planned for it and 99% of 'em, I'm gonna give it away. It's a totally different
mental health proposition. So pay your debts off. (John sighing) When you'll see your marriage get better, and you'll be a more present parent, and you'll be less fired up
when that guy cut you off on the highway, right? It just changes your whole life. - Yeah, or when your boss is, well you have a great boss, but you know. - But I've had moments when
me and Dave got crossed. - Okay. - And I've had moments where I'm like I could just leave. You know what I mean?
- Yeah, yeah. - I've had other bosses in the past where I went home and told
my wife we're unofficially on the market. And she goes, all right. Like it's just a- - You have that flexibility. - 'Cause I can. Yeah, I can. - And I think that's, I mean, probably why Tom
and I have a hard time maybe describing sometimes, is you don't understand
the piece that comes when you get out of debt. Like, you don't even know the
burden you're carrying around when you're in debt. And I think we were the same way too. We were like, okay, when we get out of debt, then we can, we're gonna buy all the things that we had been putting off and delaying, and then we get there and we're like, oh, we're good. - Yeah.
- It's just like, oh yeah it wasn't the stuff. All along, it wasn't actually the stuff. So it gets easier and easier, and then it's super easy to
keep your house simplified too. - I just, you keep unattaching yourself from all these other things that say, now you have value. Now you got worth. Nah, this stuff comes inside out. - Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome, well so good to
get to visit with you today. And of course we'll put a link to John's YouTube show. - Hey can I tell you thank you for like giving incredible
folks like a pathway to a more peaceful life. - Yeah. - It's such a gift, man. It's such a gift. - No, thank you. - We have such a rattling system, right, that's just so anxious all the time. And your calm presence of, hey here's like another
way we can do this. Such a gift, man. Thank you you for that.
- Thank you. - Awesome.
