How Did Pluto and the Outer Planets Get Their Meanings?

hey my name is Chris Brennan and you're listening to the astrology podcast this is episode 202 and the date is what is it Wednesday April 24th 2019 starting at 8:04 p.m. in Denver Colorado so this is going to be joining me today we've got a bit of an experimental episode we're going to be talking about first to the history of the development of the significance of Pluto but also the broader question about how astrologers developed the significations of other outer planets in general and some issues surrounding that so joining me today is in the studio is Kenneth Miller Sam Reynolds and at Lisa shine welcome everybody thank you for having us and running our equipment in the background is Cameron White hey cam yeah cam is in the back alright guys thanks for joining me today so you guys are in town this week you are both on the board of the International Society for astrological research and you guys are in town for a board meeting right correct and planning meeting for our conference coming up in 2020 yeah let's hear a little bit more about that so I think we've mentioned it in passing but you guys are planning to have a huge international conference here in Denver in 2019 2020 2020 okay and that's going to be in September yes that's correct okay and we're talking about hundreds of people flying in from not just the US but all around the world that's correct that's our intention [Music] anywhere we can find people or people who are doing astrology cool and you guys just finished the first round of speaker selection and announced your first 30 speakers but you're still in the process of nailing down and figuring out other speakers of the career that's right okay yeah and how many tracks are they gonna be well I mean I think we're still figuring it that out but it's actually not just going to be like rigid tracks as much as a some you know blending of something since multiple tracks between like mythology also crossing over in terms of history where we're trying to find some way in which people realize how things hook into multiple areas except maybe the financial astrology track that Dan is gonna be a track that's very different yeah it's gonna be like an investment yeah yeah futures kind of thing what our intention is and I don't know what the final product is going to be of course right our intention is to code the lectures and the presentations in such a way that they'll be coded by different categories so because certain topics as Sam said crossover between more than one topic and we're hoping that'll help people choose what really like interests them rather than just having a rigid right thing but there will be tracks and there are many of them the exact number like we don't never don't know brilliant I know I made it onto the traditional astrology track if there is gonna be one at least right yes that also may put you also for history depending on your topic okay you know so that's what I mean yeah cool well I'm really looking forward to it I'm glad that you guys picked Denver and the venue looks like really amazing I'm looking forward so far we've only been there a day but it yes I believe it will be quite a lovely experience for everyone nice rooms lovely setup um also very spaces for those who are staying um just lots of ground to cover to be able to do running you know there's geese it's like really chill cool um all right well looking forward to that we'll of course have more information about that as you know it builds up and as we get closer and closer thanks for stopping by today in the middle of all those board meetings and everything I've had both of you on the podcast like multiple times yes Sam you've been on at least three three times at least three okay and Kenneth you've been on at least two maybe three we say three - yeah okay that feels right yeah because Sam you and I did the famous like duo episodes back-to-back of criticisms it responses to criticisms from scientists and skeptics and then also responses to religious criticisms that's right which is like one of my favorite sort of sets of episodes and in Kenneth we did the sidereal zodiac one at one point yeah that's one of the like classic episodes that we highlighted when Leeson I did a retrospective a couple episodes ago in episode 200 but we've also been on another yeah an Aquarius one that was my age of course yeah the famous charts one which I don't know what we called that but yellow people versus famous charts in the study in astrology and there was actually one other which was the Star of Bethlehem yes oh yes miss episode it's a good one so this is your first time on together and of course we're all in the studio so yeah a bit of an experiment I'm in the studio yeah yeah but it's exciting to be here in person so all right so where do we start with this topic so I think the starting point is that Kenneth you wrote an article for the second volume of the ascendant journal which is the Journal of the Association for young astrologers and that just came out last year right yes came out last year last spring and my article aside it is a great issue I mean it is really packed with good articles and I there's very few journals I could actually say that about so I was proud to be in there and what was the title of your article it was Pluto's weird history dumb luck dumb Note dumbbell all right so in this article you chronicled the both the discovery of Pluto but then focused on how astrologers started to ascribe meaning to that planet as an outer planet over the course of the past century so as it has it been it's not even been a century now that it's done covered no not yet yes so the purpose of the article I mean a lot of things we just sort of take for granted because you know we read it in books or our teachers taught it or we learned it in the tradition Pluto is the one planet that there's all this near living testimony about and a lot of print about and when Pluto was discovered astrologers immediately started debating its its meaning and there were crazy debates and a plethora of meaning that almost seems like nonsensical to the modern astrologer because we all are kind of United or are we will explore that later in the talk I'm sure about the Pluto experience and I wanted to trace what astrologers said about Pluto through the timeline of the 20th century and into the early 21st century so the article covers the discovery we look at the charts of the discovery covers of all the history and and then the latest stuff on Pluto from the hour flyby a few years ago where we discovered Pluto has a big hard and water and blue atmosphere and all this other cool stuff right the heart was perhaps the most important discovery yeah well this it was a really good article I will really wanted to congratulate you on that because I've had this for yeah yeah I've had this journal for a year I just hadn't looked through all the articles yet but I started read not just yours but there's a lot of other really good articles in there as well so I really have to give a shout out to Jen's art - who was the editor of the journal - Danny who is the president of any large and he was the president of the Association for young astrologers and everybody that was involved he put it at ala mix of Italian and I think there's one more person I'm forgetting who - the illustration oh yes there was another person I'm gonna look that up really quickly so I don't oh no I mean the the editors were you know Jen Danny and Nicholas so you know shout out to them and everybody at the Association for young astrologers it's a great journalist I would recommend checking it out I think their URL is like young astrologers org or something like that alright so that's one sort of way we're going to be accessing this and it's actually weirdly good timing because Pluto is like stationing retrograde like now all right right well and for me I mean Pluto is directly on top of my Mars to the exact degree part on degree and exactly trying to Pluto my natal Pluto nice so it's like that we're talking about Pluto right it's like Pluto moment right I'm in Sam I wanted to not just because you're in town I wanted to have you on the podcast area in town but I thought you guys would make a good pair to be in this podcast today because I remember you've had a lot of discussions and you've brought up some objections to the way that outer planets developed their significations and you have your own particular like perspective on that as a broader topic right yeah yeah definitely I mean I do use outer planets okay I don't use them as rulers and so that's confusing for people you know they're like well now have you just chopped them and I think you know my question and they're a series of questions that you know I'll even be presenting at Noir whack and I think outer planets really presented a larger question like well what's astrology's hardening or departure from astronomy because the significations or even the naming of the planets are coming from astronomers it's not coming from astrologers right so there has direct implications in terms of how we look at these things and when I've talked about you know Pluto Uranus and Neptune I think we also should be talking about the trans neptunians and the the other KBO's equator belt objects you know so those are the implications because that's one of the reasons why Pluto also got demoted because there's no we're discovering all these newer bodies and so it's like well what do we do with them and then we're also you know astronomers are naming them and astrologers are just going like well yeah okay Eris that's Eris and so we're gonna call that related to discord in the myth of Eris and this is one of the questions I have which maybe go beyond today's topic but do we include every object in the heavens and then if so why and what is our rationale for what we include and what we don't include right because that's really one of the issues where when Pluto was discovered that wasn't yet an issue is like one of the things that was clear from your article for example is just it was discovered it was decided it was a planet and then so there was just this natural assumption that it has to then take on some of the same role and we have to start incorporating it in the same way that we do with the other planets and assigning a rulership and drawing on the mythology or the name associated with it as having symbolic importance and all of these other things yes yeah but then over the course of the past what like three-quarters of a century suddenly we've had the discovery of tons of other other pluto-sized objects other just hundreds of thousands of asteroids I think or maybe I'm exaggerating that as a hundreds of thousands or yeah there's lots I mean someone said I think it was Mike Brown the Pluto killer right I think he said like we're discovering like hundreds daily okay I mean the implication is pretty pretty big if you look at it that way yeah and even like back then one of the things we documented Kenneth it was the search for Pluto to begin with was initiated by what they thought at the time were like irregularities in Neptune's orbit yes so there were perceived irregularities in Neptune's orbit that's how they found Neptune because Uranus wasn't behaving quite normal and so then they find Neptune and they realized wait that's not behaving the way we think it should so there must be another planet and then different mathematicians and that's in the article they calculate where they think the orbit is going to be to find what becomes in the press like Planet X you knows like and that will now account for Neptune's irregularity and then the irony is that after Pluto is discovered and science gets a little more sophisticated we find out that Neptune is actually not misbehaving Pluto is not impacting Neptune's orbit Neptune's orbit is fine so it's interesting that the whole search for Pluto arose out of a misperception about Neptune's nature which it may not have surprised there's something else in your article that you also point out that I should be fair and point and talking about because I I talked about what astronomers are doing but astrologers have been looking for Pluto for a while too and when I say looking for Pluto there actually was a planet I forgot Maurice WHMIS yes yes he also had a Pluto hypothetical hypothetical planet and so there was this whole gamut of astrologers who had hypothetical planets in mind including like for instance of those who were struck Star Trek fans will recognize Vulcan Vulcan was believed to be out there somewhere and we still haven't found Falken so this search you know I mean that brings up a really interesting point which is just for hundreds of years for thousands of years all astrologers had or the seven you know quote-unquote seven traditional planets or seven visible celestial bodies which is the two luminaries the Sun and Moon which is just classified let's just say for the sake of this as a planet because it's being used as a celestial body and astrology yeah and then we had the five wandering stars which are Mercury Venus Mars Jupiter and Saturn which if you go out you look at the night sky you can actually see them they look like twinkling stars just like any other fixed star except what's weird about them is if you pay attention to them consecutively over the course of several nights or weeks or month you'll see them moving against the backdrop of their stars yeah and so that's what originally set them apart and for centuries that's all astrologers and astronomers knew about and that's all we used and then suddenly in the 18th century there is this this sudden discovery of Uranus right and that's the very first outer planet that's discovered beyond Saturn and suddenly that changes everything because it turns out that the solar system is not just limited to those seven traditional celestial bodies but there may be other ones out there right then eventually they find Neptune and then at that point we get into the stage that you guys are talking about where people are starting to realize there may be even more out there and we should start looking for them or even sometimes hypothesizing what they might be like or where they could be in both astrologers and astronomers are engaging in that so I'm sorry go on I was just gonna say and what you just highlighted also brings up some political issues you know that also is like embedded in that I mean one political issue was even just the discovery of Uranus which was not called Uranus for I think you know 60 or 70 years it was like Herschel star right it's called Herschel yeah you know so it was what was that like the king he named it georgium seduced yeah but the French were like calling it that after your king I'm not doing that right right Herschel was the discoverer right William Herschel was a Discoverer yeah but for just the glyph for Uranus preserves that H in Hirshman hilarious yeah right so I mean we have that and then still brings up other questions like in terms of the politics series which was once classified as an asteroid is now a dwarf planet like Pluto was discovered before Pluto but one thing that's interesting is that serious who's bigger than Pluto but named after a goddess is not given the same credence and worth as Pluto so it's like all these different political dimensions that kind of nuance into it sure and and the asteroids were discovered some time like after wasn't it after the discovery of like Neptune but before the discovery of Pluto yes that's what yeah mm-hmm the primary like five big asteroids are sad yeah okay so I want to take a little step back and just sort of set the stage into all this and you have astrologers practing astrology they the scientific revolution happens heliocentrism is discovered and astrology in the West kind of loses its bearings I'm just giving a really quick history lesson here and by the time Uranus is discovered there's been a kind of loss of why things are the way they are in astrology why are there tradition why do we have these traditional ruler ships what's the rationale of that and so you have Uranus and then Neptune and so there's this desire of like well let's fit these new guys into the scheme you know maybe they have to since planets were like always rule things they must rule something rule assign and then at the late 19th and early 20th century you have all this speculation about hypothetical points you have the rise of Iranian astrology in my article I talked about some British astrologers that had hypothetical points that were according to the journals like in use by astrologers who were like experimenting to see like did they really exist so the one of which was called Pluto but it had this hypothetical Pluto was way way further out than our pin the ruler of Virgo and the ruler Virgo according to why Miss WHMIS or however pronounce his name so another factor in all this was theosophy as a religion and philosophy spiritual kind of a blending of Indian philosophy and some you know a blending of Indian philosophies and kind of adapted to a Western audience and this notion of spiritual evolution you know it's kind of taking a Darwinism and applying it to the soul and having this evolution of the soul concept there was this there was this belief and I don't really get into it in the article but that that we'd eventually find twelve planets and each planet would get to rule one house and there'd be this beautiful symmetry so part of the rationale of like well why were they so desperately trying to figure out what house it rules was because of this notion of we're eventually gonna get twelve and they all need to have their proper proper place evolution yeah as a statement of our evolution feral evolution yes well it's really funny that Uranus played that role and it broke up the traditional rulership system which itself is so symmetrical and so beautiful and that's one of the things that sometimes draws modern students of astrology back to traditional astrology once you see the symmetry underlying the original rulership scheme or mean yeah yeah it's like you have the Sun the Sun and Moon assigned to cancer and Leo and then all of the other planets are flanking out in the Dyke order based on the relative speed and distance from the Sun first a mercury then Venus then Mars then Jupiter than Saturn but then you throw Uranus in and if you take the assumption that it needs to be assigned to a sign once you do that it immediately starts breaking down all of those symmetries so I can see then why they would immediately start being this assumption of well maybe there's more planets out there that will eventually complete and make it symmetrical again by making twelve planets and twelve signs yes you know it's interesting to contrast this with the Indian tradition you know they were also aware of these plants being discovered if you read books or let me phrase it this way the books I have seen and read written in Indian English from the middle of the 20th century they're still calling it Hershel okay and they may reference Neptune and Herschel as planets but it net the the thought of making them rule something doesn't enter the mind because the rationale of why planets rule certain signs is a is a consistent model in Indian astrology didn't have the break up or lost that we did in Western astrology so you never find anyone at least I haven't found anyone like speculating uh-oh we need to find a ruler for this because didn't didn't prop up it crops up with us because we didn't understand time most astrologers didn't understand why things ruled what they rule well and let's talk about that because actually I want to talk about that premise and almost push back on that a little bit because one of the things I notice as a traditional astrologer as a Hellenistic astrologer I blend Hellenistic and modern astrology is that part of the rationale for the original rulership scheme was the theme of Mundi where you have a chart this mythical birth chart for the birth of the cosmos where it has cancer rising and the moon as a sign to cancer and the Sun to the Tullio and then mercury gets to the next sign which is a Virgo then Venus gets to the next sign which is Libra then Mars is Scorpio and Jupiter is sad and Saturn is Capricorn right mm-hmm and so that's the starting point for the traditional rulership scheme and the rest of the ruler ships are just a mirror image of that superimposed on the other signs but if you go back to the theme of Mundi and you start from the moon and then you work your way all the way out to the planets to Saturn in Capricorn if another planet that was discovered following that logic further out than the Saturn and then it would be theoretically if you're following that scheme assigned to the next sign after Saturn and that would be Aquarius it's the next open sign after Capricorn and then similarly if there's another planet after that if you're still following that scheme the next open sign would be Pisces so that would be not a tune the next planet out it's when you get to Pluto that this whole thing breaks down though and that's when you run into problems and that's why you get into some of the debates over whether Pluto rules Scorpio or Aries yes which you documented were happening in the mid twentieth century when astrologers were trying to assign it to a sign yeah and I'm sure the Aries argument was partially based on that original sort of symmetry of just like following out from cancer all the way around the zodiac so what do you I mean what do your thoughts about that in terms of at least four let's say for the sake of argument just Uranus and Neptune if that's part of the original rulership scheme that's something I feel like traditional astrologers need to contend with and I'm saying that as somebody where I only use the traditional rulership scheme at this point so I don't sign Uranus to Aquarius or Neptune to Pisces or Pluto - you know Scorpio or Aries but I see that as like sometimes a shortcoming in the logic sometimes of traditional astrologers when they try to criticize that system because I think some of the astrologers might have been following a certain sort of traditional logic or at least extending that logic when they made some of those assignments originally that could be I mean honestly the thought that popped into my mind when you said that is if we're gonna embrace these notions that maybe we need to kind of unbound ourselves from pure traditional thinking and think okay we find a new planet maybe it doesn't need to rule something why are we not expanding the houses in the horoscope to accommodate these outer planets I mean life is getting more complicated I could also make a philosophical argument that we need 14 houses instead of 12 16 houses and now every planet can rule to two sides because you're just you're as you go further out in the cosmos maybe the wheel needs to get bigger now I'm not advocating that but it seems like one could if they were to go down that road well there are other layers to that - just to kind of think you back off of that you know one of the beauties of the thing I'm Wendy is also the balance between the idea of the masculine and feminine not that I'm right binary but I am saying that that is some aspect of it and that we got in terms of the duality even between the lights the Sun and Moon have their own duality but then every planet also gets to have that duality and that gets lost with the introduction of the outers as rulers right so with that there's each traditional planet gets one masculine sign and one quote unquote feminine side that's correct so that it almost like becomes balanced because then there's a realization that there's a masculine and a feminine expression of each planet right or we could say it's sort of and receptive we don't want to get in gender bias um so I think that was one aspect of it then there's even a more profound question which is what I often have brought up with more modern astrologers because the argument also comes up related to what you're saying is that and what you were just saying Kenneth is that well we we've evolved we're changing I mean our culture in terms of civilization and we need something that matches that which brings up the fundamental issue is that true right you're laughing at that kind of things you were you object to that but at the same time you were invoking that earlier as like a statement of an argument somebody could make that's right no but not an argument I would agree with because I think human beings are human beings and the whole notion of how spiritual Darwinism got into a stralla G and New Age thought is probably enough topic for another day because man could go down that rabbit hole but yeah well no I mean let's get into because that's where it's important as a piece of like the cultural context of the practice of modern Western astrology and some of the assumptions that modern Western especially in the late 20th century astrologers were making that they were using as justifications and one of their justifications were that things are so radically different now than they were in ancient times that this is part of our justification for changing the system and for things changing because they would argue that life is so radically different now that you know things change and their strategy should change but the one of the traditionalists sort of counterpoints that's been coming up over the past 20 years and one of the ones I've made and both of you were making at this point as well is that in point of fact like the fundamentals of life are still pretty similar to what they were 2,000 years ago and while a lot of like technologies changed or sometimes there's been other superficial changes the in terms of like the the 12 houses for example the fundamentals of life are still the same you have a correct health wealth siblings parents children illness awesome ships right relationships mortality traveler religion career friends and enemies or laws and that's like pretty Universal mm-hmm so those things haven't necessarily changed I mean and yet the way we Pratt us traditionalists and I for those of you who don't know doing it try to do a kind of traditional Indian astrology we've adapted it to modern times right into modern life and circumstance and I mean the fact is we are adapting and changing and astrology always has to adapt to the culture and the day that it finds itself in oh and my so I studied Western astrology as a kid and teenager young adult before I found Indian and one of my Western astrologers you know what he taught about the outer planets all three of them Uranus Neptune and Pluto is that they had to find a way into your life through your chart by connecting to one of the traditional planets you know so if you had Pluto conjunct your Moon or you know Pluto conjunct or trying Saturn or something like that then that outer planet has found a way it's kind of dialed in to the energy of the chart or however you want to conceptualize the chart but if you if a native had an outer planet that didn't really configure with anything else then probably it wasn't gonna have much of an effect mm-hmm because there is we what we haven't talked about is the natural boundary of what you can see with the unaided human eye right is Saturn so another argument is is that hey the light you can see ends with Saturn and that's another traditionalist argument and that's a really important argument especially in the context of ancient the way to ancient astrology was conceptualized as a form of divination because in divination that which like appears or that which is visible to the senses are perceptible is the thing that matters and if something is hidden then that either is is not taken to account or the fact that it's hidden is an additional symbolic factor and of itself right well I'm just to kind of also dive in with that I mean that is an argument that some modern astrologers make by the fact that the outers are hidden it kind of belies the fact that that symbolizes and this is the language that they've also learned to use from I guess young also from theosophy that this also highlights a particular kind of change in our consciousness our collective unconscious what is I guess what's the word trans trans person transpersonal yeah it's transpersonal planets transpersonal going beyond you know the dimensions of how we just interact in our own kind of cubbyholes right so that's one thing that does support their argument that it's it's beyond what we can see right and it's like I'm always sympathetic to that but at least so we're talking about this earlier today I'm gonna bring you into this I kind of dragged you into this conversation sorry cuz we're all the history geeks like Kenneth the Kenneth and I went to college and you are now the president I've heard of kepler college true rumors true congratulations you're also one of the few people in the world that graduated from kepler with a master's degrees one of five I believe yes Wow okay and Sam like you've done also a lot of research into the history of astrology and that's something that's really like bringing that almost like academic interest into and that historical not just historical but also studying the the cultural backdrop in the cultural context of astrology is something it's very important to you but Lisa you are somebody over the past 10 years where you've made the transition not just like from modern astrology to traditional astrology but you've merged and synthesized like modern contemporary Western astrology with some ancient like Hellenistic and other types of traditional astrology and sometimes you've had to weigh and balance some of those different ideas which sometimes astrologers put forward and one of them is that idea that maybe the outer planets only are relevant if they're like closely configured to a visible planet or something like that mm-hmm yeah and I think that's where you get into like theory versus practice for me personally because that's actually not what I see in practice like I see them not necessarily more than other planets but I see them matter wherever they're placed and so yeah I think a lot of the history of outer planet discussions within the community has been theoretical and has been like I have this idea about how this should work and so anyway that's that so I'm glad you brought that up because the crux of my article which I don't think is clear to the people watching so far is I do take you at your word that they matter and they may not be the most important but Pluto is a big force no matter where it is in the chart when you look at the history of Pluto and astrology you have many astrologers in the mid and early and even late twentieth century and actually recently what was her name anyway prominence rogers recently passed away saying that it doesn't always manifest it's it's very it's very confusing and we need to study it more and one of them one of the question though one of the one who wrote a plain vanilla astrologer oh yes yeah so I have a quote from her in here which she's like hey I've been looking at Pluto for you know 60 years and it's a weird little thing that I can't you know rely on that goes against the younger or [Music] 21st century astrologer who will say like what are you guys talking about like how can you not notice the transits of these things they're like so heavy they happen all the time so one of my questions is how do we account for the fact that it seemed so obvious today and yet in yesteryear a lot of people were saying it didn't even have an effect and that's one of the mysteries that I try to explore in the paper yeah and one of the comments that you wrote in our outline as you said I don't think this was in the article but you you wrote the question you said if you examine 10 medical textbooks or ask 10 physicians to describe the function of the liver you'll probably get very similar answers but when I Kenneth asked astrologers about the function of Pluto they get answers that are all over the place even today yes yes same where written works what does this say about astrology as a practice and see I think the question you put at the end there is you make it really broad because I think one counterpoint that I would make is is this true for other outer planets like Uranus and Neptune because I don't think it's as true for Uranus and Neptune where I think astrologers are more on the same page about what their meanings are and they're pretty well defined or you know even with Neptune to the extent that it's like not defined that is the definition but with Pluto it's been much more all over the place and that probably has to do more though with the cultural context of like radical shifts in astrology and its conceptualization over the past decade perhaps or other things than it has to do with like a broader issue with astrology per se yeah I mean do you do you honestly feel though that there are it's more across the board compared to say like a multivalent like read of like any other planet in terms of it can express in different ways or maybe symbolise different things I'm well now we're just gonna guess because we'd have to actually did I'd have to actually interview people but when I interviewed contemporary Strahl Jers about Pluto with a few of which I quote here you just get pretty they'll all say has a big effect but they'll define it what that effect is or or what its influences pretty differently and maybe we do do that for all the plants like I don't know the answer but I would guess if you asked about Venus you'd get a much more consistent list of keywords than you would for Pluto true although there's still different ways it can manifest or it can symbolize a list of different things and not just one thing so that's just like a counterpoint I was thinking of yeah I actually would tend to agree with what you're saying I mean I think that there is more of a there can be a consistency but even with that consistency it can be even a certain kind of vagueness not the word that really gets under my skin with Pluto I even tell my students like when they use it in my class just know that I'm going to challenge you on it is transformation right hmm that's the word that gets bandied about I think pretty consistently if we kind of go through some of the books with a strong you know I'm Pluto I think Michael Luton calls Pluto the butterfly planet because it's the caterpillar yeah the chrysalis another fire and I think my problem with that you know not beyond it being associated with Scorpio in the eighth house is that it's a really vague term you know because the whole chart is the statement of transformation arguably and when you say transformation I think what people are talking about specifically with Pluto is really kind of more a crisis that that actually incites what could become a transformation so I think it's more crisis right no one wants to say that you're having that but that that transformation word doesn't injustice I think to what they're trying to say because we say transformation it's kind of like well okay it sounds really cool but what does that really mean because I'm one of those clients you know when I am a client like okay yeah okay yeah give me something specific something I can hold on to transformation it's not a word that really well rattles me and as to do it the broader issue in like late twentieth century of like using euphemisms so as to not freak out clients mmm-hmm even though they're partially getting that because they're associating Pluto with Scorpio and Scorpio with a house which is traditionally associated with death right no crisis not all crisis has to be like bad you know even that kind of that mistranslation you know of a Chinese saying like crisis means an opportunity right I mean it can also mean the idea of a crisis something that you're going with that leads to a change in your thinking right a growth in your your thought process so I mean it doesn't have to always be because I don't always find per what we were talking about in the car I don't find Pluto always a consistent manifester in terms of like correlative to a particular event right I mean in that but that in and of itself is an issue then and that's an issue of bringing up Kenneth is that some of the astrologers like one of the things you documented was that there was this phase from like 1930 until almost the nineteen early 1970s when astrologers mid-70s where structures are much more ambiguous and much more some of them were like it sometimes it they don't know what it means at all or that it heart it doesn't always manifest in all charts or and they're still arguing like what sign is associated with and I again I want to be clear I'm not anti Pluto I'm just raising the question what it puzzles me is that you have that experience of it being this definite reality how could anyone have like questions it or found it to be like weirdly relevant in only a few charts Isabelle Hickey and I think 1970 this is where I get the the dumb note quote and I'm gonna misquote her but it's in the in the thing but she says you know I've been looking at Pluto since its discovery and in some charts it doesn't it's like a dumb note it doesn't it doesn't have any effect I think and then she goes on to say that I think it really only resonates for people who are like spiritually evolved or if spiritually sophisticated so any person reading that book in 1970 is gonna be like well I'm one of those people and now they're gonna be thinking I'm gonna you know Pluto's gonna work work for me and then you have Robert hands classic planet in transit I really believe that book is kind of the epicenter that kind of starts pulling everyone towards the same kind of Pluto understanding because later six years later it's a best-seller it's still a best-seller today everyone has it it's still big influential but even with that book again you interview contemporary astrologers you get quite a wide variety of things about about Pluto and I would it feels like it's more with Pluto than other planets and I just think it's an interesting thing to explore and to try to account for that I mean have we created something I mean this gets into what is astrology how did these things affect us is it a force is it a symbol is it a clock just telling us what's happening you know it raises all these great questions mr. Grafton and especially Pluto I think did that as well because me we're still even after I mean when was a 2005 when it got demoted so I mean in terms of its demotion and what that means and I you know one basic thing that we might start off with in terms of you know I have a question for astrologers like I always say to my students and then also even like it on Twitter if I ever went to the dark side right and became like an anti astrologer like wait there's a dark side yes of course there's always a dark side right if I ever went to the dark side became like an anti astrologer you know I had particular things I know I would attack but one of the things I know I would attack is I would ask an astrologer maybe I'll come at you Chris right I know that you're like thinking this out as a Scorpio so one thing I might come to you is like so what's a planet in astrology right and I don't know if we have a really good answer mm-hmm you know so like yeah Pluto got demoted so what does that mean for you as astrologers because you call it a planet but it's not like technically well the responses has been like nothing because astrologers weren't involved in that decision that's true we weren't but that's that's more disciplinary right right in terms of the discipline but like why is that a planet and say like what's it huh kumea or clay or you know terms you know so said none Sedna right so we'll see this is where I find astrologers there are some astrologers who will say that the discovery of Pluto was timely and that somehow that in itself is a is a metaphorical happening that's it has astrological significance right I mean that you've heard that around the same time and yet they don't apply that same reasoning to Pluto's demotion because one of the things I raised in my article is are the children born post 2006 are they going to experience a different kind of Pluto because the culture has changed the signification of Pluto so if you're an astrologer who believes in the cultural attribution of you know powers of these planets or whatever then it puzzles me why no one is taking into account the the latest sign and that is the history of the outer planets because one of the because one of the things I know we want to talk about under significations so yeah in terms of how Uranus skits is significant it's like well it also comes around the time that we were discovering electricity and these revolutions not acknowledging like okay so Uranus is discovered at this particular time but the revolutions happen before same thing with Pluto where people say like it's dealing with radiation and things related to nuclear changes and I'm like well that also was emotion you said that even an article yeah that's emotion at least eight years before and also even some time after yeah so it always gets fuzzy in terms of how we time our changes in human history right related to this vacations that we know in tribute to the planet yeah and I realized that was do you want to say some no I was just gonna say I mean but that's only one piece of you know how the meanings get their meanings right and it's so it's like historical events it's like one take on that and then mythology is another take on that yeah and then looking at it empirically or looking at charts in front of you is another one and I was actually impressed in your article with the CEO Carter 1951 that was one year after it was discovered yeah and you know supposedly that was based on looking at his own chart I didn't know if you had more background on that but I was actually impressed by those four lines in there they were pretty on target one year after discovery you know so I think there is something to be said for like he was looking supposedly at charts and and then yeah a lot of people were looking at charts and that the beauty of this art the article quotes all kinds of astrology so if you're looking for like key words and approaches of Pluto one of the one of the services I've done with this is I've pulled it all together from an insane amount of sources man you didn't cite that I was missing was tarnis because harness has that like huge paragraph the next version the next version will have tarnis in it okay I might want to pull that out though just to Center this discussion at some point because I think he does a good job of summarizing what most astrologers could get on board with as the basic significations of the three outer planets but Sam in terms of the empirical things that was one of the arguments Blake debates you and I had at one point because you were questioning how much astrologers were developing the significations of the outer planets based on empirical considerations and actually looking at it in charts and looking at like a transit of an outer planet to a natal planet and then seeing something happen and then you know developing or drawing conclusions from that versus you were arguing that they may have put too much emphasis on other considerations like mythology or stuff like that right yes yeah and then I mean and then my I don't know if you want expand on that anymore but my counterpoint to that was I had always read in Patrick Curry's I think it's Patrick Curry's book a confusion of prophets he has this great story about the astrologer John Varley friends like the 18th century who was a painter and also an astrologer and it's like this great story about him seeing this year in his transit coming up in his chart and he developed from looking at it in charts this general idea of like unexpected disruptions or happenings taking place and he was pretty sure on this specific day that something specifically was going to happen with Uranus and then South Yeah right at the the appointed hour the appointed hour comes and then his house catches on fire and he's so excited that he goes outside and begins like furiously scribbling down his notes and somebody comes up and asked what are you doing your house is on fire you need to put it out and he just ignores it and lets his house burned down because he's so amazed that he's been able to confirm empirically the meaning of this newly discovered outer planet and that to me it was always because that is funny stories like always been a funny anecdote but it's also so relatable because I think a lot of astrologers get in that zone we joke about it I think sometimes on Twitter that it's like a stralla jur good when something just like terrible happens in your life but you're so impressed by the astrology then you're almost like ok with it because the astrology is matching so well that it almost like makes it worthwhile whatever terrible thing you're going through at that time I was just gonna say andrea garrets has a great quote which it's called therapeutic blaming of the planets ok you know so sometimes like a misfortune happens but you can see it in the chart and and that will often give you a little bit of distance to then start actually emotionally handling yeah thereby therapeutically quote blaming the planets sure them for the misfortune yeah I don't know if I ever took complete issue with the empirical or the experiential dimension of it the anecdotal because I know the Varley quote I'm also knowing it's also in Holden's book mmm-hmm history of horoscope of astrology yeah so I mean I know the varley's story and I also have like a funny Neptune story this year I mean I mean I probably can't read all of this but it was actually I was talking to Ken about how Neptune went through iterations of near discovery only like four people who ignored it you know each time to finally it was discovered and then within hours that gets right there in the sky so that's very Neptunian so I I acknowledge that but I always had this vision before I started doing the research on other planets that astrologers got together had like these this Conclave right right they had this meeting and then I compared notes right and then said together like well that's it must mean this right where it was like much more like like a committee and like everybody was on the same page right much more like scientist never happened it's more a haphazard right yeah so that's kind of what you know I think you know and we also see like you were recounting with Pluto but you also can see this with Uranus you can see it with Neptune how we've taken like these histories of meanings and associations that really would put to scrutiny you know like especially with Uranus are challenging you know like when I mentioned in terms of electricity and revolutions and even the name which Turner's also talks about you know Uranus doesn't fit the idea of sudden change and revolution at all Uranus ends up I know the mythology of your yeah Laura knows Janos ends up with his testicles cut off into the sea which gives us Venus and he's deposed by his his son Saturn who actually is more the real revolutionary so I mean that's fascinating in terms of how we come to associate Uranus as revolution even in a tie to the mythology so there is like the question with mythology there is the question of the experiential and how it matches up but then we have all the other things in terms of how we kind of connect additional meaning sort of to the outer planets which may or may not really hold up you know so that's the question sure mmm-hmm yeah and with all these specific meanings like over time I mean I think about people doing research into the newer bodies now and how long it can take to really coalesce around like this is definitely expressing in this certain way and then you have I mean I don't wanna sound rude but as you mentioned it's not an organized and so you have just like this haphazard like random people doing this and they're probably of different quality of researchers right you know and some of them are probably foregrounding more empiricism and some of them are probably foregrounding more their preconceived ideas about what it should be or the mythology or their particular spiritual philosophy you know and so I don't know that just having a history of like decades of like this being all over the place is necessarily to me anyway like argue argues for like there not being a true meaning for Pluto or a true group meaning group of meanings for Pluto just because of a whole bunch of people like maybe didn't have it the way we think of it now and I wouldn't make that argument haha I wouldn't make that argument but what I will make is which argument just articulated really quick I didn't follow that because Pluto has been all over the place that doesn't mean that it doesn't have me okay so that's not your argument yeah no I'm not arguing that at all I'm arguing it assuming you're right how do we account for all these people that were all over the place even though they were much more experienced than we were and we're and we're seeing hundreds of clients over over time that's just that's just the question to explore the other thing is what we never get into in astrology hardly ever is kind of the philosophy of science and what's going on you know in other words if I am taught that Jupiter's are great benefit and I'm like as I'm seeing clients I'm like wheat it doesn't always do good things and sometimes well sometimes it brings cancer okay it's a great benefit but it does occasionally do bad things if I teach you yeah Pluto's does really bad things start looking forward in charts now because of Pluto's slow movement what you're gonna fish for in your mind is all the horrible things orrible things crises transformation you know whatever you want to do it if you taught as an experiment like someone doesn't know anything about astrology yeah Pluto is this like what brings a wonderful opportunity go through all these biographies to see what you can find I'm wondering what we would find yeah you know because we have our blinders when we learn this stuff and now we just start to look for confirmation yeah that's kind of what I mean you know like what are people really for grounding when they're doing this and how good are they doing research and really focusing in on what they're seeing versus what they're thinking about beforehand right that's a really great point that you bring up because that's right there we should probably put that at the top of the list because I agree with one of your basic premises which at least to me out the way I'd frame it is that Uranus and Neptune they're significations in astrological literature seem more consistent to me compared to Pluto over the past century and Pluto seems a little bit more all over the place to some extent compared to the other two and then question of why that is or what are some possibilities and one of them that you just mentioned that's really interesting that I'd never thought of is that because Pluto is so much slower compared to the other planets that when people are trying to like look at follow it or try to test it empirically by transit they are going to be picking up four more events and having to sift through far more events because it's transits are so slow compared to some of those other planets definitely another thing that I just remembered is that it wasn't quite settled about Neptune at least its rulership so before Pluto's discovery at least in the in the British journals I have access to they were debating where to put Neptune like we all think like Oh in modern times you put you know if you use monetary wishes you throw it with Pisces but there was a fierce debate going on but as soon as Pluto is discovered it's kind of like we don't have time for that anymore we got this other thing to deal with and it's really weird it almost like the conversations about Neptune just vanish from a from the literature I mean I don't know what was happened in the clubs and stuff but at least in the literature is it appears to have just like we got more pressing problems now at Pluto sure and then the other thing that changed in terms of between the timeframes of when Uranus - was discovered and Neptune was discovered and astrologers trying to figure those out is by the time we get to Pluto we're already like firmly in almost like mid 20th century astrology and some of the major changes that came along with that the the most important of which I think is going to be Alan Leo and the adoption and the integration of the 12 letter alphabet or like what's the other name for there's other names for it the idea of equated the astrological house yeah like Aries equals their dollars equals the first house or in this case Pluto equals Scorpio equals the eighth house and then starting to interchange the significations between those and is immediately once you start doing that you see a lot of the astrologers in your article that you're setting Kenneth drawing significations from the eighth house or drawing traditional significations from Scorpio and applying them to Pluto yep so that's almost like a new conceptual structure then that might partially explain how it happened some of what was happening at least or at least an element that was different when they started trying to figure Pluto out compared to when Uranus and Neptune were were discovered initially mm-hmm so that brings up lots of philosophical issues but one thing related to what you're talking about Kenneth in your article but what you also just said and you know I've been looking reading a an author who I think has been very much influenced by seven thought from the 70s and 80s and how she actually did her delineation that type tapped into Pluto in the 8th house and I think she also looked at Mars and Aries related to the first house here's a question I often wonder about different methodology than we might use is more traditionally influenced astrologers and especially in terms of the Vedic tradition was she wrong I mean she didn't I mean she's got the right delineation in a very different means what does that mean in terms of how we do astrology was she wrong what he means meaning meaning that when someone talks about will you're like this because I'm looking at Pluto in your your eighth house and it's this and that related to the signification of the eighth house the collapsing those and then collapsing that with Pluto we're looking at Pluto in your first house which is drawing on significance of the eighth house right and then additional things like so for instance I'll go with something that we can see with some modern astrologers well you've got Pluto in the first house they're really sexy now for traditional astrology you go like where'd that come from how'd you get that right yeah I think I'm you know most people are gonna say yeah I'm sexy I'm too sexy for my shirt but how do you know that now that could be any number of factors right right that we would look at like fifth house Venus whatever so that's what I mean you know like how we now have gotten these associations and these combinations that really have changed the landscape of it and I used to be of that mindset and you know we used to talk about that in my space days and then a little bit on Facebook well that's just wrong I think I'm softening in that not going like oh that's wrong as much as like will it gets confusing that's all I say now yeah that's all sure yeah it's those those nuances of now how we're using it with these combined associations as you're saying right so I'm trying to think about there was some other like basic things we needed to touch on one of them just to circle back to the historical discussion because I meant to get that at the way first because you had done such a good job of documenting in your article but you showed how there was much more things were much more all over the place in terms of Pluto's significations up until the mid 1970s and then after the mid 1970s it all just like collapses really quickly and astrologers get more or less on the same page pretty fast and at the epicenter of that of course seems to be rob hands seminal book planets and transit yes and what year was that published again next to 76 76 and because I was wondering like a few years ago I was trying to remember I was trying to think like why is rob hand so popular in the astrological community today where he is at least within astrological circles like not necessarily outside of the astrological community where you might point to somebody else to calydon to Goodman or like Susan Miller or somebody like that that's more well-known for doing horoscopes or Sun signs or something but within the astrological community for the past three or four decades like Rob hand has been he's often looked up to as one of if not the leading astrologer in the world he's also the astrological zelich right if you're familiar with that movie it's a Woody Allen movie where it's about this character who kind of has like been throughout different periods of history that we see and Rob really does capture that and how does he do that because he's the only astrologer I know who's kind of gone speaking of transformation through so many multiple transformations in his work I mean the only other person who I can think as comparable is is Dmytro right in terms of how she's also made different transitions but I mean he's done comfortable biology he's done to meet you George for those listening yeah right but you know if you if you look at his career you know he really has gone he's really liked almost like the penultimate modern a strong leader in that sense going from you know being Kozma biology to some two points to a Dean dealing with midpoints to dealing with just like how we deal with aspects until he also now went into looking at a Hellenistic astrology traditional medieval astrology he's kind of done the whole swath of the 20th century in miniature right but I was like I was trying to figure out why his perception was so because even my perception of him from that particular moment of just like a few years ago like maybe not as much to some extent now he's become a little bit less active hasn't been going to conferences for a few years now but definitely like when I came to the community like 10 years ago as like Robin was like the guy and I was wondering like why was that at some point and I realized at some point that planets in transit was probably a large part of the reason I think there's a couple of reasons maybe three I can think about that I'm I am one I guess the cookbook style of plants and transit made it accessible to even the beginning astrologer mmm second it was written with some psychological sophistication of the time right he's a second-generation astrologer his father was an astrologer and he's one who wasn't afraid to change his ideas like if you buy some of his early books of essays he now practically disagrees with almost every one of those because he's grown as an astrologer and he's also been a consulting astrologer seeing clients over decades and many of us many of us many teachers of astrology seem to like stop seeing clients when they start teaching and or they don't see as many and then they're kind of can become a disconnect between what you're teaching and what actually works in the real world and this happened to teachers but with Rob he always had his hand in seeing clients and Rob is one of the very few astrology you know every professional astrologer someone will say oh yeah I got a reading from so-and-so wasn't that great you know you think but raaah everyone I've ever met who's gotten a reading from rob hand was like it was helpful it was insightful he like you know knew his stuff including me including me so so I think all of those things about his character has made him this and when he does go to these big conferences he often does a workshop called problem charts or something like that feeling a dealing with difficult chart combinations and he'll just throw up audience charts examples what and and he just has a finesse with it from all those decades of experience so I think all of the and he's quite accessible even though he's really smart and famous yeah he's happy to talk to you yeah yeah he's accessible and he knows like the history of astrology really well and he gives like an amazing like keynote lecture that's always really inspired yes I was gonna say all those things you said in addition I just think he thinks more deeply about the topic than many people do you know and then he expresses it well so I don't I mean not to say that no one else thinks about it deeply but I think he keeps it at like a higher level but then makes that accessible and that's pretty unique yeah sure so but I thought I panned tribute show right but you know I think a large part of his start his first book was actually planets in composite I think if I remember correctly at first I think he actually got started with planets in composite first I don't think we have a copy of plants in transit but the planets in transit though because everybody it became a staple of everybody's library and everybody could read it as one of the first really accessible but also comprehensive books about just looking at your transits on a day-to-day basis and it's delineation is really good that became a staple everyone's library and that's continued over into subsequent generations in the past two decades because Astra comm incorporated planets in transit into their personal daily horoscope and in 2000 like like from like you know when I got into astrology in 1999 through mm at was one of the first resources I found because they have the free chart calculator and everybody for the past two decades it's gotten into astrology relies on Astro comm primarily for unit reliable charts and the fact that they also use planets and transit in their personal daily horoscope means that the whole this whole other generation or two of astrologers have gotten started with Rob hands delineations so it's kind of continued and perpetuated that but what was interesting what you wrote Kenneth is that from the 1970s onward that generation of astrologers that probably came in in the 1960s and 70s things really start getting claps down in terms of the interpretations of Pluto and that Rob's delineations in planets and transit could have played a significant role in that because of the popularity of that book yeah that's my my guess well it stayed in print right yeah it's been in print today I mean that's a huge cuz most astrology books don't for very long and we actually said that he's he's almost finished or nearly finished with a new edition of it which is interesting cuz he's also said that there are things that he said in that book that he wouldn't say no that would be completely well he was a young man I mean like yeah I mean that's just a statement to his evolution right and his growth so for sure of so that being the case so historically to wrap up the historical portion from the 1970s onward Western astrologers start largely getting on the same page and you start seeing a lot of similarity in the way that they're talking about right in rulership of Aries disappears right so it all just becomes Pluto assigned to Scorpio Pluto's connection with a thousand Scorpio mm-hm and that in it of itself I'm sure once you get on the same page about that is just gonna reinforce and help to standardize a lot of the significations to some extent mm-hmm you know death sex whatever other generation yeah transformation I'm sure there's other things like I'm thinking like Steven arroyos book what is it astrology Carmen transformation mm-hmm that contribute things every wolf green who you didn't really talk about in your article yes TV for us yeah you did after you after yeah because that's so straw dress targeting and that's all that generation that came in during the 1960s and 70s which are like the Pluto and leo generation if we were to break things out by Pluto generations which is a common thing that's done in the astrological community I think it's that generation that's getting on the same page from the 1960s and 70s forward who originally came in when they were in their like 20s and 30s who were largely born in the 1940s like Rob was and yes you get more standardization you get the standardization of late 20th century astrology because it's not just Pluto but also just like what modern astrology is became much more standardized in terms of like modern psychological astrology in the late towards the late 20th century by the 1980s or so yeah so there's a lot of things going on just in terms of things getting smoothed out a little bit by that point and then you also start getting some extreme sort of areas where Pluto isn't just like this new thing but becomes like the focal point of their system and that's been a more recent developed in the past development to the past two or three decades like in the evolutionary astrology community and the work of Jeffrey Wolfe Greene where they start putting a ton of or putting a ton of meaning on to Pluto ways do books on it mm-hmm right and says that Pluto is like the soul and that's like one of their primary like tenants as evolutionary stralla Jers I call that development like that almost goes really far to something I almost called the fetishization of Pluto which is just taking a single object which different traditions have a propensity to do from time to time and just like heaping a ton of stuff on that specific point so that it doesn't become the only thing they're focused on but it becomes the center point and in some way for some traditions other traditions have things like the nodes for example some traditions even if evolutionary astrology is the thing and like this Stevens school tends to focus more on the nodes I would say then Pluto whereas the Jeff school focuses more on Pluto you've got other astrological traditions like the Chiron yea Chiron's American tradition sure I'm trying to think of some tradition either way it's not in the article but when I lecture on this topic another weird thing that happens is Chiron's discovery and I wish I remembered Chiron chart but I looked at where I was like that's weird Pluto's significations kind of collapse at around the time Chiron's discovered and so I looked at where Pluto was in the Chiron discovery chart and I remember that being very interesting unfortunate I can't remember the chart but we can all look at it tonight yeah sure and look at it there that was in 77 I believe okay yeah so there's so we sort of wrapped up the history but one of your points then is even though astrologers are more on the same page in the past let's say two to three decades about Pluto they're still compared to other planets you feel like a certain degree of ambiguity surrounding it that's that makes it a little unique yeah in other words I'll just use the meta format and hopefully I'm not oversimplifying it but I mean the modern perception of Pluto is I had this thing burns you know and yet ok everyone agrees it burns but why is it that my grandfather was like what are you talking about or yeah it feels kind of warm to me or at least it is hot like how do we account for all those different experiences so that's I'm lifting a mug right I was looking a mug with a drink in it for that metaphor so so you're saying like why because some astrologers will just say it's the most important thing and it's so obvious what it means how could you not ya know immediately what it means you're contrasting that with like five or six decades ago where stralla Jers are like I don't know it doesn't seem to do anything for some people yeah I mean when we get to Pam Geisler okay so she's got 44 years of experience and in 20 13 she's writing like well maybe in another hundred years we'll understand more about Pluto because its discovery was only 70 to 80 years ago I'm quoting her so we are hardly in a position to judge completely what it can do and then you know it goes on and I'm like any young person like you would be like she's out of her mind like what are you talking about it's so obvious what it does so that's a mystery to me you know I'm not I'm not saying one's right one's wrong we need to figure out with I'm just saying I'm I'm saying it's all true why is it all true that's what we're doing something became woven deeper into like our matrix right and this idea that we're we're skirting around now we're coming full-on to it this the spiritual Darwinism became much more embraced right you know that it's a matter of you know it may have been in the early 20th century as we were you know kind of absorbing some of these ideas theosophy like oh we're talking about spiritual consciousness there's more people reached a critical mass it's like our spiritual consciousness and how we evolved and we have more people saying like well I'm very involved so because what's interesting is that in terms of significations related to what you're saying we have the development in the broader sense related to the outer planets then a refinement comes more so around the 50s and 60s with the notes between Martin Shulman and Dane Roger right and then we have a maturation of that thought for crystallization of those thoughts and ideas into the 70s and 80s so by that time we have more people who came to believe that we can talk about consciousness the evolution of it and heightened or lower consciousness and very clear and what seems evident terms which is interesting because now that is also I won't say under attack but under critique and but previously it's been a build-up to that and that was like it's Christendom moment so I think what happened is that it just became absorbed in our culture it's like well there's no there's a there's a book oh man it just came out recently by a physician it's on healing something or other but it's actually an analysis of all the recent research on the placebo effect and the nocebo effect and there's tons of research in the medical literature that's all of this book it's really great and I read it I thought wow this has implication for us because one of the implications is that there is he notes and and this has been studied I wish I could articulate it better but cultural beliefs have an influence on us as individuals even if we as individuals don't partake of that particular belief right man and I'm wondering if somehow that is a piece of this Pluto puzzle that we defined it kind of clearly as a culture and so now it's having an effect which also are we creating our own reality with some of this stuff and like I say if you took someone who didn't know anything put a different spin on Pluto would they be able to overcome that cultural belief would they would they find something different in its transits I don't know so I think you're proposing an experiment where we get a brand new astrology student and we put them in a room yes and we teach them that Pluto is a phonetic planet yes and that they need to follow their transits just believing that and see if they will have the opposite experience you say Kenneth and starts like questionnaire to you right exactly yeah exactly another thing is you know we're not fully serious yeah just so what a disclaimer I don't want to forget this is the point before we reach the end we got to be more on the ball when these objects are found because we attribute a mythological name or creature to the thing and it's usually a malefic force now and I'm like we need to like tell these astronomers like pause and we need more benefits of the world and you know like we keep you know blowing it with it with each things I mean when I read like the delineation what said I just say the mythology like yeah we do that that's horrible well that's one of the discussions that came up recently online with they're trying to name some new planetary or celestial body and the push to like start reaching out to like other cultural mythologies yeah instead of just continuing to use purely like Western cultural myths yeah well like an Indian astrology the myths around the planets are quite different than the Western counterparts and so there is a a cultural piece to this that we often don't talk about you know yeah I wanted to say one alternate explanation yes for because it definitely can be a self-fulfilling prophecy community-wide in terms of or you know something you know cultural that we then absorb but I think also like a potential simpler explanation could be just that there was a consensus finally around either observations or theories or whatever about what Pluto means and then everyone newer coming into the field knows that off the bat and knows what to look for off the bat and then sees all the charts and said yes it's indeed manifesting in all these ways and so it's not as confusing to them because it's like yes I see that and it's working the way so it's you know I wish that we're right but I don't think it I think if we were to really dig into it if that isn't what happened I think what happens is you have a big book published sure that's very accessible yeah and now everyone starts to get on the same page but that's a civilize the coalescence of those years yes yeah could have been germinating right for a while and yes you know in terms of Rob's ideas right he read his book again you'll see I mean the psychological model of astrology going back to Leo and you know that had been in development for at least yeah and that's a great point cuz some of the statements have been made about Rob's book as some like detractors try to say that he it was just warmed over a Burton and the cosmic combination of stellar influences and I don't think that's the case and I think that's going way too far but he was definitely heavily influenced by Everton so that's a great point that you're making that there was a longer build-up to that and that wasn't just like Rob himself coming out of nowhere with a bunch of stuff but instead he was he was synthesizing some some traditions that he was drawing on at that point but even your argument to me falls down in the fact that in modern times and with modern younger astrologers it is so obvious Pluto's meaning sure yeah and I don't disagree with you in terms of I don't actually think that everyone like closely observes and make sure that like I do think that people take you know for granted when they read something and in an astrology book they don't think like well anyone could write an astrology book and then it's out in print and the new tick isn't authority so I do actually agree that plenty of people just take that for granted and run with it and don't necessarily keep testing it all the time or rethink it or am i definitely seeing this play out that way so I agree with you in that respect and by the way I asked Lisa I dragged her into this episode because I knew she'd do a better job of pushing back against some arguments that I thought that you wanted to more of us are doing great whereas I was going to play more of the mediator and occasionally but please be forceful Lisa yeah pushing back and you guys can go out I mean what would your if you were teaching a beginning student what key words would you throw out for Pluto well before I answer that yes I want to say one of the things that I actually think is one of the issues with you why we can't narrow this down more than we we have so far is with the traditional planets there's other traditional rules to to to specify how is this gonna play out not just the entire range of possibilities around an archetype right right so let's yeah so there's like traditional dignities for instance so you know is a planet and its own rulership is it you know exalted etc there's sect you know is this going to behave more positively or you know with more challenges given a day or night chart things like this are really helpful in terms of being more specific with your astrology well with the outer planets we don't have any rules like that right right so we have the entire archetype to play with yeah and for me that's what I've noticed anyway is like a huge factor yeah why it's more broad I think that's a fantastic point I'm glad you raised it because yeah you're right if we don't have those other containers to modify it so it just ends a carry carry everything right and I think it and I think that might be although I've never heard this articulated before but I'm sure I'm not the first that might be why they were called transpersonal because they aren't contained by dignity and other factors that we might put on the traditional planets right right because there's something else here we go here we go disagreeing fully with that because I don't know for certain yeah but I think he goes to the thing that we're talking about I mean they're they're an argument about how consciousness works mm-hmm and in terms of being transpersonal like I said it's kind of like this Augmented belief that we're going beyond how we have been as a species mm-hmm the question again going back to what we said oh is that true okay so okay so my use of the word transpersonal was I think more in the I think the I can't we can't use traditional the modern the 20th century astrologer my understanding was it meant more it applied more to the culture or the group right it transcended the person right because they were so slow-moving it had like a more blanketed which is more on their how it's affecting us as a species as well I think people have talked about it as like how it affects collective more but also in terms of a certain psychological twist right like internally I think it's also meant that way yeah the other weird thing is the section on consumerism which I don't know if we want to get into that but the weird role Pluto appears to play in our own buying habits and generational you remember that sex yeah yeah so well first before I do that and let's just remember that you have actually there's a question on the table for you right so how would you do that for how much you talk about astrology to a beginning well kudos to a beginner student because I also have my own take on that sure I mean I would use a lot of the same keywords the the problem though is I like to be more specific than that so that is actually troublesome for me when I do talk about some of those outer planets because I can't narrow it down as much as I would like to so you know but that said you know when I talk about any other transits there is still some range it's not one thing and so some often times up you like it could be like this type of experience or this type of situation or circumstance and I'll name like three or four and so I guess give an example let's say a Pluto and this instead of talking about as a natal place mutts talked about as a transit so Pluto transiting your seventh house and your descendant I mean I've often talked about it in terms of frequently there will be power struggles there will maybe be situations where you get into a situation where you feel like your power is really strongly being challenged and you have to somehow figure out how to deal with that um yeah I mean with also I think the the uncovering of the hidden I was just really impressed that that was already in the 1931 Co burger because there's several of those like the uncovering of the hidden that we talk about today very commonly so I would say that like for instance with Pluto transiting the descendant seventh house like well hidden things could come up that you didn't know we're going on in your relationship but you could get in bigger power struggles with their partner and that kind of thing just the uncovering of the hidden I mean the 2015 flyby where we actually got to see what it looked like and get an idea of its composition and talk about blowing everyone's expectation and like wow there's been a lot of interesting things hidden from us from Pluto right so I wouldn't it's up to tag along with that and that for me Pluto I define is in terms of keywords as the digger how we experience how weeks going into two depths but related to the consumerism I'm not big into like talking about octaves so we liked it at one of the language the language that we use from theosophy was that the outer planets Neptune is the higher octave of Venus blah blah blah but one thing I did find instructive as a thought experiment was like what if we kind of switched that around and and Robert Blaschke came to a similar set of conclusions so he saw a connection between Pluto and Venus and even if you look at the Glyph one of the glyphs cuz there's the PL glyph you ever push below my favorite right and this is the other glyph of like I call her the dancer I call it the dancing girl right it's kind of like the what do they call it the Cross of manifestation and the crescent of soul and in the circle of spirit right yep if you look at that that even has some parallel to Venus now where am I going with this what's interesting lease Pluto does correlate to the idea of desire the depths of desire strong desire obsession right in terms of what I must have this is what you know I need to have because if you look at the mythos of of Pluto have Hades there's always some parallel story dealing with desire from you know his introduction to Persephone to how we talk about Orpheus right and going down there hmm there's always some aspect dealing with love or the story of how we deal with the heart in so when I saw that picture of that fly by Isaac right so that I mean it can't became like almost a testimony of like how I was thinking about Pluto is really this this weary way in which we experienced the depths of heart and in terms of consumerism you know that's kind of going along with this it has been in the growth or change in human development it's kind of what we want we either want to get it faster or more hmm yeah well and I speculate that because the United States is a consumer culture that it has that particular manifestation for us as a culture but anyway no although still with that argument yeah u.s. culture is infecting the world right because Amazon is everywhere for example yeah right so there are people who are expecting like well why can't I get it like within like the week you know so I like what you said Sam but I will confess that would pop one of the things that popped in my mind was oh wait a minute Zeus has a lot of desire but we don't use that particular part of the myth and explaining Jupiter I mean actually to be fair we used to invalids if he read the first few things of valid and like children and procreation and things like that were some of the signification --zz they associate with Jupiter early on you know but we forgot about that I was glad those sand that you brought up the idea of octaves because that's another one of those things that developed during the course of the past century where that was another one of the access points where astrologers attempted to come up with significations for the outer planets was by trying to make correspondences and say certain outer planets were connected with certain inner planets by being higher octaves of that but there were different systems for doing that I think there was one or two that were more popular but I've seen a number of different variations of that and that's another access point that astrologers have attempted to use right you know so I mean I mean the traditional one was what Mars Mars Uranus is the higher octave of Mars I honestly don't know because there's a lot - right yeah and yet I would argue if you just did a keyword analysis Uranus would match more Mars Gerudo would match more mercury mm-hmm because if if the transformation planet or the caterpillar to butterfly planet is Pluto who used to rule that and that was mercury yeah so he took some stuff mercury more more than we usually think about well and it's interesting the other way around - like when I was doing all my research on like Saturn and sect things and Saturn returns I I really realized like halfway through that so many of the signification --zz that used to be associated with Saturn and got put on Pluto once Pluto absolutely I was like that's bizarre and that's how Saturn got to be nicer because because took all of the negative you know associations and now Saturn just gets to be constructive but that's not actually how about fascinated by that just noticing that so many different changes with that I mean I think Neptune took a lot of the moon significations I also even kind of joked related to the moon and the notes especially like the South node I would say the south note I think I tweeted this Reis and said the south note Neptune I want my significations back you know it's kind of like this idea you know I haven't done this but it'll be interesting to look at Alan leo or other like 19th century astrologers to see how they were using Uranus and Neptune in their natal readings and examples and their books because I honestly don't know the answer to that because one of the reasons why I think they play the role today they do is that in the 20th century what happened you had the down play of houses the increase in play of the aspects between planets and so when you get rid of part of our language more weight has to be carried by these other things and so the outer planet significations start to expand it like cover what's been lost by sort of like not paying attention to houses are not paying attention to planetary dignity yeah yeah so that you've got well now how am I gonna get my meaning I'm just sort of looking at aspects now and so more has to go on the planets yeah now at least I've got the outer planets to pick up the slack yeah definitely definitely and I mean I'm not really a fan of the octaves either but I do think that there can be overlap like authentic overlap between significations of some of the outer planets and some of the inner planet and I think there can be I would say there's overlap even between summoners and inner sight yeah so I mean yeah life is complicated so and you mentioned that article Saturn and sect and that was actually in the first ascendant journal originally yeah what was the title of that um I think just Saturn returns insect okay and I got republished again sonnet Astro comm really good article for anybody that wants to understand either the concept of Saturn returns or the concept of sect which is the distinction between day and night charts so you can find that now on Astro coms website in their article section yep cool all right so octaves we talked about octaves I'm not a big fan of the octaves thing either for various reasons should someone champion it maybe I should defend I don't understand I'd love to defend one of the objections that traditional astrologers make is they will push and say that to many of the significance the traditional planets have been ripped off from the traditional planets and applied to the outer planets which is weakened the astrologers ability to interpret the full variety of significations of the traditional seven mm-hmm so is that an argument that I mean we all tend was a little bit traditional at this point so is that something we would all get on board with yeah we should have invited a strict modern strut then it would have been like four on one but Lisa is playing a good role and pushing back but we're some of the other points though trying to remember what your else you're gonna push back on one of them was just the idea that sometimes an outer planet when its prominent can do things on its own and it does not need to be necessarily connected to an inner planet or something to manifest yeah I think that's kind of the modern take well then that's what a point she was me how argue more strongly well only in that I was just you know reading through your article again and you know talking about some of the other people saying takes like well it can only express if it's an aspect with an interplanetary would disagree with that yeah yeah yeah I would say most modern modern modern astrologers would agree with your position I mean I also wouldn't overemphasize that yeah you know where I think sometimes it is oversized look at some traditional astrologers I can't think I think like Warnock tries to say treat the outer planets like fixed stars and you say that they have them only that limited capabilities do you mean tension like very close conjunctions and you look at like other Ptolemaic aspects for example right what about angles do you would you say like when you're saying that it doesn't have to be two inner planets are you then saying that it's more about in terms of aspects to angles or like it could be anywhere in a house so I think it colors a house yeah I think it still colors a house I mean I would definitely I definitely think that you can integrate it with some other rules such as yes it's going to be more prominent as on an angle because anything angular is more primary you know but um no but I do think it still means something I think the other one was a generational like a lot of people try to say they're not specific there's not specific meaningful to you as a person they're more generational and that's an older that'd be even before my generation right I mean I say that my issue though with that let's go with Uranus for a second we class and I could I could go with the argument in terms of a temporary mmm midpoint with what's saying okay let's say Uranus going into the second house by transit that could be descriptive of an adjustment maybe within its first year right in terms of someone's experience of like the shock of dealing with uranus in a second but i would find it hard to believe if a client came to me like no uranus has been in my second house for like six years destroying me like i don't know if i would believe that like yes i mean like not because uranus can't do that six years right that's not uranus it might be mismanagement of your funds it might be it might be hot things happening but i don't know if I could just like isolated to it being in a particular house sure I mean there's always you know as you mentioned earlier Kenneth if you look at a long enough span of time there's always lots of other things going on at the same time and that's actually kind of part of how I use other planets is I look at what's concurrently going on and see does that sway it this way or does that sway it that way right and use more traditional techniques to do that so you use it as an additive factor mm-hmm is this the three logs that make a fire so exactly so the one of the things that impressed to you is how outer planets can sometimes work with the traditional techniques like perfections yeah I've actually seen that just recently and I haven't done a ton with it yet to keep you know get like a hundred examples or something but I've definitely seen it trigger perfections like for instance if you're in a twelfth house you're a sixth house year and then transiting Neptune or transiting Pluto comes to conjoin the ruler of that perfected sign oh yeah I've definitely seen that and that's fascinating because that's a like one way that you didn't integrate them yeah and one way to explain again why sometimes nothing happens and something happens because without another timing technique you know if the inner planet that's being a so this is interesting so it may be that if you don't know home the perfected house activates its Lord or ruler so when you have a outer planet transit maybe it won't have such a dramatic effect on a planet that isn't activated by one or another timing systems but but more dramatic when for example would perfect it so that's a fascinating thing and I would expect that actually right according to the principles of perfection principles and then use some of the you know outer planets within that I think in interesting ways and I think that now is just kind of like the beginning of when people can start to do that because enough people know a lot of these other rules yeah but just like any other transit won't always be one thing any Saturn transits not going to be one thing and people then argue endlessly over Saturn means this no it means this because they have different triggers going on and they have different specific ruler ships in the chart you know and so I think that also happens within a the outer planet transits yeah and I think that I mean the one thing to always kind of emphasize is some level of proactivity especially in terms of talking about the outer so I'm a Pisces rising right so when neptune went over to the exact degree of my ascendant I felt pretty ungrounded in that sense so that significant of feeling that but what I did proactively that was talking about this D and then yesterday it's like a week ago last night at dinner one of the things I talked about so one of the reasons why I converted to Islam was not dogmatic and it wasn't as a matter of dogma it was a matter of like literally wanting to kind of connect to the ground at least five times a day is that that was a lovely idea of actually grounding Neptune even they're losing religious conversion when Neptune hit your ascendant yeah Wow okay so yeah that's pretty good yeah but I'm also analyzing a stronger you know you have to look like well did I do that because I'm an astrologer and you know what the significant or I mean while I realize that's always a threat and I'm sure there's astrologers that sometimes do that sort of self-fulfilling prophecy I'm always convinced because I try to be cognizant of that possibility how often that's really not the case where you really are just like going on and living your life as an astral you do notice that this thing is going on but you're not like forcing yourself to like go through that much upheaval or that radical of a change of beliefs or lifestyle just because you're you have that in the back of your mind like it's actually just something that's happening in your life although the flip side to the placebo effect I talked about earlier which is the nocebo effect or you think something Bad's gonna happen it's gonna and it happens there are straws and laypeople who see they've been taught the pluto's bad they see something bad coming and they've been thinking something Bad's gonna happen something bad was gonna happen and now during this time period something bad is gonna happen because bad things happen all the time right good and bad so it's just something to be I think we as professional astrologers of course have to be aware that we're not like putting fear into someone and then they're manifesting things from their fear right yeah and all of this is part of the broader like epistemology of how do we develop put constraints and develop meanings on you know specific things in astrology in our personal practice and what kind of things can we put in place to do that carefully and deliberately so that it we're not being influenced by factors that are not actually coming from the thing that we're trying to study right all right so I'm trying to figure out where we're going with this and where we've ended up so we you guys are and we're talk about the outer planet so we went into the outer limits yeah and I think it's actually been a really good discussions so far I'm trying to think if we need to take it in any specific directions before we start heading to the towards the end of this have we covered all of one of the things we didn't cover is the rise of the use of mythology in the 20th century as well as the idea of synchronicity between whatever the body gets named and that having some very symbolic significance when witch astrologers immediately start drawing on and assuming has astrological like tangible astrological meaning and that to me I think is a big difference where even though mythology was much more prominent in ancient times and much more like part of the culture in a very literal way in ancient texts like Ptolemy or Valens I don't see them invoking mythology to describe or explain the significations of the planets as much as you would expect if you're coming to it as a modern astrologer and that that was more of a new relatively new development that also developed in the 20th century and really changed how astrologers approached dealing with the signification of new bodies so that's a whole issue I mean yeah big issue and I think that Pluto's because Uranus as a planet and Uranus as the myth it's not a real good the astrological thing it's not a fit and Neptune isn't really a fit it's not like we have a bunch of mythology about the god of the sea being like confused and wishy-washy which implies which implies to me that those two planets might have been developed their meanings astrologically might have been developed more empirically writers by the time you get to Pluto astrologers are just drawing right on the mythal and then every body after that it's like oh we started let's wait and see what the name is and now let's read the miss and now we'll let's start delineating charge yes one that's exactly and that's almost sometimes like the only thing yeah I mean I've heard two answers to that because I mean like I've gone to the severe side the more Saturn side and be like I think that's a sloth I'm slothful in terms of like astrologers ninety seven deadly sins you know astrologers kind of just like heating what astronomers say and going like okay crib notes thanks we're gonna use that and go with that but one answer that did come to me from actually Jeffery Cornelius become is that it could be a moment and I'm not buying this I'm just saying that this is like an answer it could be a moment to divine synchronicity and I think you alluded to that that this idea that we'll the astronomers named it that because that's what the cosmos wants that planet to be named right and that is the underlying usually implicit philosophical assumption that astrologers are making when they go that direction and use that approach and it's become so commonplace that people just use it at this point as a principle without even sometimes even recognising that that's what they're doing or just taking for granted that that's what they're doing is if that's like of course you can do that or of course they assume they project it back and assume that that's always been the case but in fact some of the traditional significations of the planets developed from other thing things entirely aside from the mythology and having nothing to do with the mythology pause for a second I just made this point before but I'll do it again given that why aren't those same astrologers taking the demotion of Pluto as some cosmological synchronistic sign that we need to change how we treat it in astral you said as you also said some do some did right I mean I don't know no I don't know okay no I don't know of anyone who has I haven't known anyone who's raised the question other than me although I'm sure other people have but it's all it's kind of like we ignored it in fact I'm still surprised at how many astrologers don't know what Pluto actually looks like they just decide even like keeping up with the news so the wit Pluto has a heart I'm still like in the last month I've run into people that didn't know what had been discovered recently about Pluto so I hear that argument but then it's like well if that is your argument then don't we need to take this seriously like if science is sort of acting as a proxy a synchronistic proxy for astrologers then should we be paying more attention to what their what they're doing in well I actually thinking about symbolic I've never thought of this before because I thought of that but I think most astrologers may be generally might think yeah sure but they don't know what then symbolically that means but actually thinking about it may be the symbolic significance of that and I hope I don't get struck down by some cosmic rays for saying this but maybe Pluto's not as important as we thought it was that could be one of this I hope if I drop dead tomorrow I think you can take that it's not I would say okay if we might now go way out if you want to go there then we'll go think you know I would say I don't think it's gonna strike you down because I think what Pluto is is a place for us to put our shadow our darkness you know I mean when you're scared of a shadow you're really scared of the shadow until figure out wait a minute it's just a shadow but until then your body is having a physiological experience of fear and I'm wondering if Pluto has become this receptacle of just all of our negative stuff I mean that that's planning on it hang on here and if that is the case it's not that it's less important it's that we've misunderstood the meaning of Pluto which is it's a mirror to ourselves and we've just been putting on it all the negative things I mean what if we that's a deep psychological read of it what about some actual I like deep psychological I means it yeah on psychological meaning it doesn't have like physical correlates or material correlates in terms of people's experience right mean that's always a question with astrology so we'll just put that on the table all right that could be any number of factors from Y X happened yes right but I mean there are people who have had experiences a Pluto like conjoint like I can testify to myself yeah when Pluto conjoined my son mm-hmm my mother died mm-hmm I mean that was a ploutonion experience other things also happened that testified to it was that my Luna returned all these other things progressed learn to return just to be clear but if you look at the converse tertiary I didn't look at the tonight okay it could have been that but I mean it could have been all these multitude of factors but one thing I do remember looking at was like Pluto conjoined my son uh-huh no they Pluto Co my mama no but Pluto did signify some particular event that wasn't just psychological my shadow right I mean he did evoke those things okay I see what you're going and I I didn't mean to imply that I agree with you I'm not saying it's just a psychological thing I'm saying that it becomes a golem for like we make it into something real and do we can we make it into something else I mean no disrespect to Pluto what are you saying that metaphysically like that we I'm just yeah I've asked metaphysically because I do feel similarly to say I'm you know like that not everyone is as deeply enamored with Pluto as like overemphasize and I know that like I don't feel like I do but I've still had some major Pluto transits that are correlated with some major events um that are typify by Pluto key words other things were happening in the chart as well that I could track you know to say why it would definitely be something like this but I don't know if you know I was thinking speaking to the the moment of surrender they City for discovery I wonder if that's I don't think most people think about it as as clearly as this but I do think maybe there's an idea that like the moment of discovery is a certain synchronicity and so maybe the 2006 for instance isn't being thought of that way because we're not saying everything about that planet subsequently is like equally important kind of like an inception moment I don't remember the chart but you can look up the time it was demoted and look at Pluto's place in that chart and I remember being very interesting and telling you know when you compare it to the discovery chart you look at the Kairat Pluto and the Chiron chart and then you look at the Pluto in the in the in the chart of it being demoted again do this at home folks but I remember it just being very suggestive of like oh wow this chart looks like someone's like getting demoted you know so yeah look at that it's uh it's interesting I'll have to link all these years see what I can do and I want to put it out there that if you know people some people might object to that what I was saying earlier about it maybe being less important in when it was demoted at that point but gee it just changed some sort of change related I mean what if Pluto is the planet of coming to you in the darkness to help but because it only shows up when we're experiencing some crisis we have put oh you're the harbinger of doom it's like no I'm actually going to help you hold your hand through it well yeah but that's exactly ultimately what's behind the transformation key word that you guys were objecting to at the beginning of the episode is that's why they use transformation as a euphemism because they're trying to explain that it's part of some broader almost like providential design of going through a difficult or a traumatic period that strips away a lot of things often in a way that's experienced as subjectively too called a negative but that ultimately has some broader growth type or evolutionary to had potential so you you just circled back around to what the otter and like sort of interpretation is broadly speaking but I wouldn't to say if people didn't like whatever that suggestion was I throw it earlier then come up with a different suggestion I'd love to hear suggestions if other people have speculations about if there is any symbolic significance of Pluto being demoted back in 2006 or whatever it was like it was what is that yeah I mean when did this and then the stuff we found out in 2015 you know blue atmosphere water warm like we don't know where the warmth comes we don't know why Pluto is warm you know and remember the little girl who named Pluto thought of it because she thought oh it's so distant cold and she had just learned mythology in school and so she's like let's call it Pluto you know so turns out it's got weird warmth and stuff so I mean there's a lot lot going on with Pluto that we need to meditate on sure and one of the things that's happening now since then since that demotion is that there's like tons of not just small asteroids and stuff there's other major almost planetary bodies being discovered and I think they're still doing a search right now for like a major boss Mike Brown is doing yeah they're on the search right now on the hunt for like a major what they think is a big planetary body yeah yeah and these this isn't just laying new Planet X yeah ironically we may end up with twelve we'll see what happens but we're all waiting in that itself will be like a new epoch not just in astronomy but in astrology one of the things though that I think would be good as sometimes astrologers taking a little bit more time to figure it out and letting it play out because I've also seen other things I've noticed over the past decade is this this kind of like rush sometimes for people to publish or to like be the first to publish and get down what the significations the meanings are of a new planet like there's like four or five different books on Eris already at this point and it hasn't been around for that long and I have to admit I have not studied all of them that closely so they may actually be perfectly and deep and insightful and thoughtful works on that subject it just seemed from the outside that some of them have been published relatively quickly after the discovery of that question how can we know because it's always this lingering issue of like are we doing quote unquote empirical studies or is this more philosophical mmm-hmm speculative which is fine I mean like we we've also talked about the speculative nature of some of the significance to the traditional seven you know like how those came about right right so maybe there's a tradition that we can extend even to these new discoveries but I still agree with you that we should be a lot more contemplative and cautious mm-hm about how we come up with these meanings but you're right I mean like between Sedna right and the books that have come out about Sedna like yeah find out what your Sedna means well I think people do rush to that because of the mythological they're like I can explain it right now because I know the right I've read like you know a few books and yeah and I mean I'm not to say that some people might actually not actually be tracking this you know also but I think it often comes out of the mythology and that's why people can rush to do it I think another alternative that I just wanna throw out since you were joking about it earlier is like we need more positively major planets like I mean there's that other theory out there that it's more of a causative thing where like by the act of us naming it collectively it turns into that and that's kind of the approach behind the a lot of the asteroids I think a lot of little you know I mean I think the planets point of view it's just been waiting to be discovered by us and then finally it is and that's like wait you're giving me this job I could have been the guardian angel planet I could have been the blessings that the universal healing solvent right we need a letter-writing campaign for this new planet right to kind of solicit names right or just yeah right anything yeah so yeah I don't know you have some in the ready you know get into the miss trouble doing that - we had it plenty in the ready like Pluto Pluto wasn't just like that's true what is her name Vivian little girl little girl yeah yeah I mean she named it but Pluto had already been circulating and of course we had Vulcan you know I have been circulating and then all these other names like I think there was a pan we had a pan yeah waiting so you know we we've had no shortage of names yeah and I meant to mention one of the interviews I want to do at some point is Kieran the grace who I interviewed and we did a great episode a while back on Young's conceptualization and theories for the mechanism underlying astrology he actually has written a book on eros that I've been meaning to check out because he said in his defense he said like I have gone through and one of the things I try to do in the book is review the different ways that astrologers historically have developed the meaning of planets in addition to her not just in terms of the mythology so I some point hopefully talk to him about that to see this again he's this cool scholar named Kieran legrasse I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly but he wrote a great book about young and Young's work on astrology and he's also written a couple or a few other books at this point on astrology like modern he's of the tarnis school he went to see IAS and studied under richard harness and has written some books in that like a vein of that school of astrology mmm anyway so I have to look into that at some point and maybe in a future episode in the meantime we're getting towards the end of this so what sort of final things do we need to settle on where have we come have we come to some sort of conclusions with this have we have we accomplished anything transformed Neptune I did like that you quoted Allan white because that's what always been one of my favorite you actually just mentioned uses first name because you're mentioning people anonymously but I wanted to give him a credit that was Ellen White who always said and I always liked this interpretation of Pluto where he says he take it takes small things and makes them big and big things and makes them really small yeah so he again in tying in with that sort of modern astrologer thing which you may not agree or may not agree with about tying the discovery of Pluto closely or roughly próxima ting or being tied into the discovery of the atom bomb or some of the things surrounding nuclear fusion that being like an example of taking something like an atom and splitting it and turning into it like a mushroom cloud yeah and that being like part of the imagery that he associated with Pluto I always thought was interesting and sort of a useful metaphor for part of what it seems to do astrologically yeah so I was glad you quoted him and the articles wanted like many astrologers yeah all right guys well I think that's it for the cemetery sentence yeah yeah we said we're gonna keep it under two hours we are at one hour and 54 minutes so I think we have accomplished two that we have thank you guys so much for joining me today for yeah thank you for it's always a pleasure being on your show creation live yeah yeah you guys are only the second pair of guests here in the new studio to join us in person so thank you yes I never saw - OH - mm-hmm let's start looking for the number ten this week yeah so thanks for joining me be sure to check out Kenneth's article in the second volume of the ascendant journal Kenneth how can people get a hold of you if they want to Kenneth at celestial intelligence or calm and I think also if you do Kenneth that Kenneth D is in Donald Miller dot-com or net I'm also president at Kepler so you can write president kept like ouch org and I'll get it yeah and definitely go to Kepler's website which is Kepler dot-com college dot org oh and also this Saturday well I don't know when you're gonna post this but on the 27th I'll be starting a introduction to Vedic Astrology classes through Kepler brilliant yeah okay and Sam where can people find out more information about you unlock astrology calm or also unlock astrology at gmail.com to write me okay brilliant at least so what's your website just Lisa SH I'm calm or else I'm at gmail.com alright brilliant you're scheduling consultations but you're kind of booked up a little bit at this point yeah but it's still scheduling but if okay and you can of course find out more information about me at the astrology cast calm thanks to everybody who subscribes and listens to the podcast and got us through 200 episodes hopefully it'll be 200 more and we'll keep talking about the outer planets and hopefully figure them out by episode 302 you know I actually we should all come back at 4:04 right for to recreate maybe we'll be back next year or two years from now especially for the conference mm-hmm definitely starts actually I'm gonna be back in a few months but I'll talk to you about that later yeah you sir astrology don't work okay yeah you saw our astrology not org for the conference September of 2020 yes gonna be a big deals for sign up soon before tickets sell out like they did for a Norwalk this way cool okay and also thanks to all the patrons who supported us so for more information meant to mention at the top of the show if you want to get early access to new episodes access to higher quality recordings and a bunch of other blessings from outer planets yeah exactly right especially the top tier you can sign up to become a patron at the astrology podcast.com slash subscribe and just find our page on patreon all right and thanks cam for running the cameras thank you can a job I hope my wait all right that's it for this episode of the astrology podcast so thanks for listening and we'll see you next time bye bye bye bye [Music] [Music]

Channel: The Astrology Podcast

Views: 24,614

Keywords: Pluto, Pluto planet, Pluto astrology, Pluto meaning, outer planets astrology, Kenneth Miller, Sam Reynolds, Samuel Reynolds, The Astrology Podcast, Chris Brennan, Leisa Schaim, astrology

Id: 3kZlUQGj-1k

Length: 117min 41sec (7061 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 27 2019