Secondary Progressions with Kelly Surtees

hi my name is Chris Brennan and you're listening to the astrology podcast this episode was recorded on what is a Tuesday February 20th 2018 starting just after 201 p.m. in Denver Colorado and this is 140 fourth episode of the show in this episode I'm going to be talking with Kelly Surtees about the timing technique known as secondary progressions for more information about how to subscribe to the podcast and help support the production of future episodes by becoming a patron pleases it the astrology podcast.com slash subscribe I hey Kelly welcome back to the show hey Chris thanks for having me yeah we are back again quickly so I just literally today just released our last episode which is our Q&A episode and the first episode of February because I'm a little bit behind but one of the things that we noticed when we were gathering questions was we actually got a lot of questions about secondary progressions for that episode and so we decided instead of answering them there to sort of hold off and do an entire episode on the topic because it actually looked back after 144 episodes somehow I haven't actually done an episode dedicated entirely to secondary progressions until now and you are the main person I know specializes in that topic so I'm excited to talk to you about it today thanks yeah I'm probably excessively excited to talk with you about this right this is your main obsession this is your main technique yeah it's a technique that it was sort of the first of the main timing technique that I was taught as a baby astrologer and for whatever reason so it was a combination of learning it early in my process and my practice but also just really feeling I guess alignment or integrity around the technique you know I like the flow of it I like the the way it works and and then I've really started to enjoy how I see it in action in terms of timing and symbolism and accuracy with clients charts so it's definitely my go-to timing technique all right brilliant well I'm excited to get into it so secondary progressions let's do a little bit of background information first so this has become one of the most common timing techniques in modern astrology probably second only to transits would you say that that's accurate yes okay so pretty much over the past century or so and one of the things though that's surprising about that or is kind of surprising if you're a modern astrologer that learns astrology in that context is that where it's such a popular technique over the past century is that evidently it's only become popular in the past few centuries and James Holden in his book thought that Johannes Keplar in like the what 16th or 17th century was the first astrologer to mention it or to really start talking about it and then it was popularized not long after his time essentially right yeah yeah the work and James Herschel Holden's book history of horoscope like astrology is a great reference on this yeah Kepler is sort of one of the first people who references secondary progressions and he really focused on the progress son he did a couple of other things but that's kind of where he started and then yeah Placidus who we you know we'd all know because he basically invented a house system he's he's actually sometimes credit as being the inventor but really I think yet he popularized the technique and then moving forward from there there was Englishman John Partridge who was more like late 17th century early 18th century but then I think part of the reason they've become so popular in relatively modern astrology is that Allen Lee I loved them he favored them over primary directions because they are more simple to sort of explain and to work with and just you know the huge influence that he had on the more modern strains of astrology it was really picked up and kind of grew you know from there right because he was Allen leo is such an influential figure in early twentieth-century astrology because he wrote so many books on the topic and really helped to repopulate it after a century or two of sort of falling out of favor in society yeah and I think you know not necessarily that you know we can sort of debate Allen leo he sometimes get feel really hot under the collar but he did simplify some of the tenants in astrology that led to it becoming so accessible and you whether that was a good thing or not it certainly helped with the revival that we had coming into the 20th century sure and I meant to mention so although Holden attributes secondary progressions largely to Kepler there's actually a reference in book nine of a deus Valens who is an astrologer lived in the in the second century in Egypt and who wrote in Greek and there's this super brief reference where he seems to almost be describing something like secondary progression so the the technique may actually go back even further than we know all the way to the second century although the reference is extremely brief and then he never goes into it again so it's kind of weird if it did exist way back then that you would have this gap of you know several centuries all the way until the time of Kepler before it really becomes more popular but you know who knows all we can say though is that it has become one of the most popular techniques over the past century especially in modern astrology and we're gonna see why really quickly because you can do some really cool things with it basically yeah you can and you don't need a lot of technical equipment so for everyone who's like I don't have soul fire I promise you you can do what you need to do with an ephemeris and if you don't own an ephemeris yet because you haven't fully committed to your astrological nerdiness the ephemeris is available free online and you can get what you need from the Swiss ephemeris so yeah asteroid Dienst astra comm has a great free Ephraim ephemera so you can pull up in PDF format and print out but otherwise I think we should start guilting people if they don't have an ephemeris at this point because you really do need to have one especially when you're learning transits but it's also useful for techniques like this one a hundred percent and the only difference is that when you're doing progressions you need an ephemeris that covers your year of birth when you're doing transits you want an ephemeris that covers covers now like the current period so I think the Mickelson American ephemeris which is what I use and recommend you want a midnight version and they now do I have a red book for the 20th century and the blue book for the first half of the 21st century but they actually put it together and created a purple book which covers from 1950 to 2050 have you got the purple one there cream I know I'm actually really excited about that because they're calling it the American ephemeris the trans century edition oh you've got a new version yeah it starts at noon so it's like I'm like white cover but it's from 1950 to 2050 which is super useful because it covers both a lot of people who were born in the second half of the 20th century as well as you know the first half of the 21st century totally yes so that's and so yeah I I think you're right Chris we should guilt people will be like serious about your astrology but you don't yet unfeminist come on yeah you're probably not a serious astrologer if you don't own an ephemeris yet we just gotta make you all feel guilty right right there's some some truth to that and then we're also partially joking but no really good an ephemeris yeah all right so let's talk about the technique and first how it's calculated this is sort of a symbolic technique and there's actually a number of different symbolic ways of moving the chart forward because the birth chart itself so we're talking largely about natal astrology here which is centered on the concept of the birth chart or the natal chart which is a you know two-dimensional diagram that depicts the locations of the planets or the alignment of the planets at the moment person was born and that's kind of like a snapshot in time of where the planets were exactly at the moment of your birth but then the planets keep moving or they kept moving forward after that point and so that's one of the ways of moving the chart forward is just seeing where the planets moved at their different speeds and in rates after the person was born and that's essentially what the study of transits are right yes if we're looking at the real time movement so where are the planets in this guy now and what's that triggering in the chart yes that's gonna be our transits which is a really simple kind of approach that is basically the most common modern timing technique right and and the transits are you are used in terms of both looking at different planetary alignments in the future as being significant somehow when they fall in different parts of the chart but also especially transits are often studied by looking at the planet where the planets will be at certain points in the future compared to or with reference back to where they were at the moment of birth in the birth chart and that's basic transit analysis yeah yeah you're looking for a temporary aspect that's formed between with like where the planet ezal will be with something in the natal chart and that creates a trend that is around for a just a short but specific window of time right like the like the Saturn return for example is when Saturn returns back to the position it was in when you were born or you can have other planetary returns like the Sun returning back to the degree and the same as a dial sign as it was when you were born is basically your birthday every year yeah yeah that's what that and that would then be the solar return which is another timing technique because we can create a chart just for that and then yeah then in the under the progressions umbrella we're in the symbolic timing techniques where we're kind of artificially manipulating the chart through time in a similar way that we do with you know perfections or even fade Aria or other planetary period systems even in solar are corrections for instance that you know where we're sort of giving a particular ratio of movement and we're directing or progressing planets forward through the chart according to a certain time ratio sure so transits are actually our actual real time movements of the planets either in the present or in the future whereas a lot of the other timing techniques in astrology are often symbolic movements that are moving the planets according to space or according to time yes or some combination thereof so you have things like annual perfections you mentioned which is a very popular ancient timing technique where you basically move the planets forward ones at I equal sign per year where you move the ascendant forward ones at ichael sign per year there's primary directions where originally I think you advanced the planets or you advanced the ascendant forward at different rates based on the essential times of the signs which how fast the signs rise over the horizon or eventually culminate overhead and that has a variable rate because the signs some signs move very fast and other signs move very slow basically right yes yes okay so it's taking some astronomical phenomenon or movement and then translating that into a sort of timing technique and you mentioned solar arcs which is another it's probably after secondary progressions the maybe third most popular timing technique you might say in modern astrology would you go that far yeah and I feel like um Frank Clifford and I sort of sit on different sides of this so we have little respectful debates occasionally oh no you're well yeah you're the secondary progressions Queen basically yeah and Frank's the solar action guy and yeah the horrible thing about the acronym you know for Solrock directions is it comes up too sad which sometimes I just see all right well that's not like I don't necessarily go yeah they're very popular and what I tend to say to people is the techniques come from a similar origin the idea of we're moving the planets forward through time according to a specific ratio so it's totally symbolic the ratio is just different in solar actions we're doing the movement of the Sun for all planets which is approximately a degree per year of life yeah so let's let's say just hypothetically and get rid of yeah yeah let's just say so solar arcs are basically or you move every planet and point in the chart forward one degree per year and then right for every year that the person is alive so secondary progressions though is different than a lot of those because and it has a really unique rate and it's it's one day per year relative I was have a hard time explaining this how do you usually explain it to people because you can say one day per year of the natives life but that doesn't exactly explain what you're doing yeah it's so it and that's technically what you are doing but a most simple way to grasp the concept is to think we're gonna take what was happening in the sky when you were 12 days old and we're gonna give it meaning for when you twelve years old so it's like taking the transits for every day that you lived for the first few months of your life and saying that the transit on that day is somehow representative for the entire year of life that you're gonna have that corresponds with that year if you were saying that every day after you were born corresponds to the subsequent year of life absolutely so it's basically we're going to look at the transits for the first 90 days of life and that's going to give us your progressions for your 90 years of living if you if you have an average length life and one of the key components of progressions or secondary progressions is that they slow down planetary movement so that normally we don't really consider you know a Venus mercury aspect to say that might be in play for one 24-hour period that's not going to be a huge impact by transit but when that movement is kind of given meaning over a whole year of your life it actually becomes quite descriptive in describing or showing the themes that you'll experience for that period of time sure and and I just want to make sure we explain this because I feel like we might be like people that already know what secondary progressions are probably understand what we're saying but I'm wondering if we're explaining it clearly if somebody has never heard of this concept before so you literally just so you have your birth chart which is the day that you were born and the alignment of the planets that day and then basically what you're saying is the next day so the day after you were born that whatever wherever the planets are placed at that time the alignment of the planets will be reflective of the first year of your life or the next year of your life after you're born and then the second day you're alive the alignment of the planets on that day will be reflective of your second year of life yeah the only slight technical thing I would tweak there is that the day you're born is actually year zero so on day one like the next day that's actually that's gonna be the year that you're one so it's sort of technically your second year that's where people like if you're in the ephemeris and you're gonna count down your birth date is year zero and the day after would be year one and then - and then you three of life got it so I'm gonna pull up very quickly I can't be of an ephemeris yes that's what I usually do with teaching so we can show this that might be the easiest way initially to show how you could look this up totally from the perspective of an ephemeris yeah and one thing I do say this is the very first time you're learning or hearing about secondary progressions you might be thinking Chris and I off our rockers because one of the things that particularly for more modern inclined students coming into this as a timing tool it just sounds like a really far-out concept the idea that one day has some sort of connection or meaning for a whole year and that SCIM that that's the that's what we mean by when we say a symbolic timing thing we're taking a short unit of time something that's happening in a day or a week or a month and we're giving it meaning for a longer period of time and that concept sounds weird to our modern minds because of the way we think about time today versus the way you know time was viewed historically but there is a quote in the from the Old Testament in the Bible where they talk about you know each day you shall count for a year so the idea of you know something happening on a day and it having meaning for a year or what-have-you it's a very old concept but it does sound very strange to our minds sure what's just exploring and getting to the roots of this idea that astrology is based on on symbolism and correlation and that sometimes something that seems small or unconnected can be symbolically important and when you start understanding astrology in that context you understand why is something like secondary progressions would be important that if when you were let's say 12 days old like a major event happened in your environment during your life that that might have some symbolic significance for the year when you turn 12 years old you can kind of understand the the broader symbolic significance at that point if you're looking at astrology more like almost like omen ology in a sense where where there's a significant event that happens within the field a view of the observer and that has symbolic or some broader symbolic significance for indicating something about the future absolutely and one just sort of very off the top off the top of my head example is you know if you if you've ever been around a young baby if anyone who's had a baby or had friends who've had babies or families who've had babies you know their lives are pretty sheltered a baby spends a lot of time at home but maybe the baby on day 14 or day 16 of their life gets taken on the road trip across you know maybe they go on a two-hour road trip to meet their grandparents for instance so day twelve of life the baby takes a big trip and then you know we would see what's happening planetary wise but just the simple symbolism is you know if you take a big trip I'm a big trip for a baby as a two-hour drive but maybe when you're 12 years old you go on an international holiday with your family for instance so it's almost like those events that happen all those experiences in the early days of life almost giving a foreshadowing to you know a more adult or more grown-up version of that event that you will have later on down the track right I think that idea that key word of foreshadowing is a really good one and is probably going to be the main one that we come back to a bunch of times this episode with this specific technique maybe more than any others yeah yeah so here's I pulled up the Astrid comm ephemeris for 2018 and let's just imagine that somebody was born on February 1st of 2018 yes so what is today today is like the 20th of February yes so so they're born on the first so that would be like this first line here and this is the alignment of the planets when they're born which is basically their birth chart but then all you basically do for secondary progressions is that you would say this so let's say that they're here we're now twenty twenty days since they were born or 19 days since they were born on the 20th and we would say the alignment of the planets on this date 20 days after they're born will be the chart basically for when they're 20 years old yes exactly exactly and what we can actually see is that the date like yesterday the 19th the Sun has moved into Pisces so one of the fun things to start looking at when you first work with progressions is to track back in time and figure out when the progressed Sun changed signs for the first time so even though this baby that our speculative baby is only a few weeks old we know that the Sun changed signs on February 19 when they're about 18 days old and so when they're 18 years old symbolically that Aquarius Sun will progress into Pisces and all of the features and things the topics connected to the Sun in the chart will sort of shift into a more Piscean period or chapter so I'm just taking that example a little further forward Chris but just so people can see what we're looking at or what we do with that with that info sure definitely so so basically and what's cool about that then is because most people will only live let's say let's say 90 years or something is a good average for like a long healthy life that means you basically just look forward for the first three months of the person's life at the ephemeris and all of the alignments that will happen during that first three months of life are basically all of the secondary progression alignments that will will ever occur for the person so basically you just have to look and see you know how did the planets move and what sort of major events happened astrologically and astronomically in the first one or two or three months after the individual was born and that will sometimes help you to zero in on which specific years of the person's life will be very important or will have important turning boy turning points or events or what have you 100% and you know when you do it this way and you look through the ephemeris and I do encourage students to literally print out the ephemeris for the three or four months following birth because you can highlight oh these are the years that the Sun changes signs or Venus changes signs or mercury goes retrograde or Mars changes signs so there are more to do with progressions than just sign changes but looking at it this way you can really start to get a sense of when some of those more active years might be in a person's life all right definitely alright so let me switch back to my outline start getting a little far afield here so diving in right it's funny um well and it's like I don't even know if we should still continue like should I pull up a chart now and attempt to show how secondary progress because we're showing it abstractly from the perspective of an ephemeris because that's the most important format and that's the one we're used to but I wonder if we should show it in an actual chart and if that would make a difference for like a new student at this point or should we should just hold off and do that when we start looking into examples yeah we can probably sit with this for a moment because what the ephemeris is is really showing is the technique that we're using and then we will insert this into the chart if you like okay so this is going to be our our convince everybody to buy an ephemeris episode basically basically yes there's no escaping it there's no escaping it so it's I mean because the other thing too you know the point I made before that progressions are going to slow down planetary movement which means that when you're doing secondary progressions the main planets you're going to focus on other quick moving planets so you'll be focusing on the Sun or moon and Mercury Venus and Mars especially there are some special circumstances where I think looking at the progressions of Jupiter and Saturn can be helpful but I have no examples of ever negative to look at it progressed out of Planet I use them a little differently I guess to the way other astrologers might because of my traditional background and the idea when we're doing any timing technique is we're looking for things that are changing we're looking for a shift or a new energy or dynamic that's coming in for a particular period of time and an outer planet moves so slowly that even when you're doing the progressions for such an old like you know someone who's a little older you know maybe someone in their 70s or their 80s the outer planets maybe have not have moved one degree over the whole lifetime so there's not a lot of info there and we can literally see that just look into femoris here back to our pathetical as you said the hypothetical baby example that was born on February 1st of 2018 if February 1st was the first year of their life then you can see Neptune started at 12 degrees of Pisces in 47 minutes and then on the second you know day of life's last year of life it moved to 12 degrees in 49 minutes then 12 degrees in 51 minutes during the third day / third year of life it's basically at 12 degrees for like the first decade eventually it moves to the 13 degrees when they're 8 days old / 8 years old but then it spends the rest of the next month basically trying to get through 13 degrees of Pisces so basically the outer planets because they're so slow within the context of secondary progressions as you were saying just to reiterate or point move almost not at all and so from that perspective they're not typically something you're paying huge attention to for the most part no and in fact I never do I don't really I mean sometimes the client or a student will be like well what about my progress you're honest and I'll be like well we're gonna talk about these other things because these are the things a little bit more significant or what have you I mean in the whole month which is the first 28 years of this person's life Neptune moves one degree by progression try to contrast that Venus is gonna change signs by progression mercury is gonna change science by progression there will be a new moon and there will be a full moon and the Sun is gonna change science and each one of those things is much more important right and that being said though sometimes occasionally you will have like like for me for example I was born with Neptune at 29 Sagittarius and it actually did change signs mm-hm about a month after I was born which is actually in my actual life since I'm in my early 30s right now is just a few years ago so occasionally you know you'll have things like that or you'll have outer planets station retrograde or direct which can be significant like in this person's life if we scroll down from February to March alright there's nothing but if we scroll down to alright there's still no there so Saturn let's say hypothetically stations retrograde at some point in April through yeah and you've used the example of where I would this is how I would use Jupiter and Saturn is that if you have a chart whether you send it or me to have an a ruled by ad you put a sign or a certain sign then pay it's worth checking the progressions of Jupiter and Saturn to see do they change signs or direction because depending on where you're born in the Jupiter or the Saturn cycle it is possible that they can cover a fair few degrees and so but particularly if they rule the angles I think that becomes really significant to look at okay so what are some important transits in the first few months of the life that we should really pay attention to within the context of secondary progressions or the secondary progressed chart itself and one of the questions is you know are we paying attention to the secondary progress chart itself and the alignments that occur in the future in the person's life or are we looking at the secondary progress chart relative to the natal chart like we do with transits yeah look my take on that is that we are looking at the secondary progressed chart in relation to the natal chart so you know the idea of any timing technique is that we're working with the radix or the root chart which is the birth chart and essentially what we're looking to do is what in the birth chart is being triggered or activated so students sometimes show up and they're like I've got my progress chart here and I'm like well what I'd like you to work with is a by will so to create a chart where you've got two charts essentially your birth chart in the center and you've got your progress planets around the outside so that if we're talking houses and progressions for instance what we're mostly interested in is which natal houses other progress planets are particularly the progress moon which is going to move the quickest out is you know either what natal houses are those progress planets moving through or what natal planets are those progress planets triggering or creating aspects with okay and this is an area where there's some debate or there's a little bit of tension in the tradition in terms of basically two different two different not different approaches but people emphasize one approach with the other typically or emphasize yeah basically so could you explain that system some people say you're advocating and in your opinion basically you think the secondary progressed charge should always be related back to the natal chart as a sort of long-term transit whereas a lot of other astrologers some other stralla Jers treat the secondary progress chart like a chart unto itself where you're just looking at what aspects are going exact or are taking place in different years just in that chart sort of irregardless of the natal chart or without reference to the natal chart yes and it is in the same way that some people use solar returns as a standalone chart and other people are really interested in how the solar returned triggers or reflects or develops what's in the natal chart so it is definitely two camps for sure for sure and I guess that's that was sort of the way I was trained was to use the progress chart as a trigger all the progress planets the progressive movement as the trigger I mean as I say that though there are that you you know when we talk about the progressive moon phase which is yeah I was just thinking well yeah yeah that's totally and exclusively within the progress chart of it self so that's something we're lifting out of the progress chart and giving meaning to the natal chart so it's almost like I'm arguing against myself here no I mean I think I just I feel like the answer is both and I've always been in the other camp where I always thought that it was primarily just the secondary progressed chart and you're just looking at alignments that will take place in the future over the first few months of the natives life and that when those alignments happen those will mark important turning points in the natives life like when they have a secondary progress new moon or a secondary progressed full moon I'd seen really powerful examples of that in my life for when I when station when planets station retrograde order Act that had oft and coincided with important turning points in the lives of people I'd seen so I'd seen it working independently but then a few years ago I saw some really powerful secondary progressed essentially transits to natal charts that really made me see how important how you could use the secondary progress chart as sort of like a long-term slow transit chart and how that's really important as well totally and I agree with you because I don't think it's an absolute either/or for instance you mentioned like and what if you've got a natal planet that's retrograde like maybe you were born with Venus retrograde or mercury retrograde Natalie and in your progressive chart it does go direct at some point you I have absolutely seen that be a huge change for someone and the way I guess where I say I want us to come back to the natal chart is that we I want us to find the meaning or the symbolism or the interpretive information by that planet in the context of the natal chart and an example would be say you were born with Gemini Midheaven so mercury is a planet that is significant for career Gemini on the tenth house and you were born with Mercury retrograde and then in your progress chart mercury goes direct you will notice that around that forward movement of mercury in relation to career or tenth house or Midheaven topics where all of a sudden maybe some of the barriers or the delays or the whole back around your work life that might have been indicated by that needle mercury retrograde once it progresses direct it's like you get to move on from that or finally move forward if you like right and that's actually a fun example because I had over the past few years my secondary progressed mercury has stationed retrograde and then I published my book which was kind of weird and I've been a little concerned about that a little bit I don't know what that's going to meet in the broader in the broader long term as I now you know switch to being born in the first 30 years of my life having mercury direct by secondary progressions now suddenly it's retrograde but I have noticed that anytime you have like a planet like mercury or Venus or something like that station retrograde it's always an import or a station retrograde or direct that it's always a super important turning point I actually had a friend of mine he was an older guy that was in his 60s or 70s and had like his head like a really long full life and I he was actually I did this kind of he was an astrologer and he he was actually dying he was dying of like cancer and I did a sort of interview with him about his entire life before he died and he was one of the people that was involved in the translation projects in the 1990s and he played a really pivotal role in them and I did his secondary progressions and like he had like two or three planets that all stationed either retrograde or direct right around the same time in the early 90s when he found this translation project and it just completely changed his life and gave him a lot of meaning and purpose over the course of the the last 10 or 20 years of his life and you could really see it in the secondary progressed chart because suddenly all these planets were just stationing and it showed this huge turning point in his life when this really crucial thing happened both for him personally but also in terms of his involvement with that project being important historically as well so that was Alan White's chart was a good secondary progression example it's fascinating and if we think about that ephemeris that we were looking at you know in a three-month period you might you know most three month periods might have one personal planet station there are some three month periods like I mean later this year we're gonna have Mars station director and then Venus station retrograde within the same three month period but that's a little bit more unusual and you do see that and you know Chris don't I mean when when mercury for instance progresses retrograde it's almost like we are going into a research or a consolidation or an integration phase around mercury stuff so it's not that it stops working it just that the nature of mercury is different yeah this day how do my work on planetary speeds brings in you know how does the speed of these planets change over the course of our life and we see that through their progress cycle yeah and I mean one of the things I've been thinking about it recently because I have been thinking about a lot over the past year since I just celebrated the first anniversary my book being released you know a year ago in February 10th of 2017 I was just thinking about how you know when mercury stations retrograde it's it's getting like as far away from the Sun as it can possibly get so it's almost like gone as far as it possibly can before it almost becomes exhausted and then slows down and turns back and begins moving or falling back towards the Sun and in some ways that was kind of descriptive of how I felt by the end of that ten-year project I've just I've gone as far as I can go in terms of researching this book and reached as far as I can with it and now you know it's out there I need to put it out there and then move on or move into the next phase of my life and whatever comes after this this ten year long project absolutely yeah it's kind of fitting in that sense totally and that's the thing is I think you can see the symbolism and the shifting quality of the planet its relationship to the Sun and how that shows up in a person's life and the one thing I did want to say on Mercury particularly is that because mercury goes retrograde about every three months give or take most of it it's real everybody normal average is that all of us have our mercury progressed into and out of a retrograde cycle at some point in our life so my mercury progressed retrograde when I was 16 years old and it's gonna progress direct soon in the next year or two and other people won't have mercury progressed retrograde in their chart until their 50s or 60s and then because mercury is retrograde for approximately three weeks which is about 21 days mercury then is retrograde for about a twenty-one year period in our life so you know we particularly with mercury because its retrograde more frequent than all the other planets we will all have that what what becomes really interesting is the retrogrades of Venus and Mars which happen less frequently and you know most of us don't have any retrograde action by progression of Venus or Mars but some people do depending on where in that cycle they've been born so anyway that's a little brief segue on the personal planets and how they're retrograde cycles show up yeah because I mean I think a lot of people would agree that and the other thing we're about to talk to so at this point we're basically in the section where we're focusing on what are some of the most important things you need to pay attention to in secondary progression because there's a ton of different things that you could study and it's a huge technique but there's probably a few specific areas that are there really if you're trying to focus in on and and and see if this technique works that'll really give you the biggest sort of bang for your buck and so one of those is just pay attention to when planets station retrograde or direct by secondary progression in a person's chart because those will often indicate important turning points in the life what are some other things that we should look at or pay attention to or do you have any example should we share you have an example of like a secondary progressed station I don't think I do off the top of my head because the the Sun and Moon of the angles are actually the top things to look at the personal planets I tend to say if they rule the angles so if you have you know a Gemini or a Virgo ascendant or Midheaven you want to pay special attention to your progress mercury or if you have Venus rolled angles or Mars rolled angle angles then you really want to look at those it's funny of all the examples that I picked up I don't know if I've got that I prepped I don't think I do have a station one okay I've got the one I was just talking about with Alan wide actually I was charmed ah yeah so there's actually two planets so I was over I'm over emphasizing it a little bit but so let me see how to how to share this so I'm gonna share my screen and first I'm gonna show I mean I do work with the progress personal planets all the time and in certain situations where which I described earlier I will use Jupiter and Saturn but Kepler thought we shouldn't waste our time on any other planet that's my progression other than the Sun Moon in the angles yeah well I mean one of the issues is just as a consulting astrologer most of the time it's only the inner planet so you're going to be working with because those are the only ones that are going to move very swiftly and show change in the short term especially but I guess it's just if you're thinking about this is a technique almost like how you think about the Timelord techniques where you get into the habit of you know and Zadok releasing you can calculate the first hundred years of the natives life and look at it all essentially on one page and so that that has gotten me into the habit of looking at some of these techniques in the broader context of what does this show in terms of the life as a whole where it says you know in secondary progressions it can say you know when this person's twenty years old that's going to be a huge turning point in their life they're gonna have difficulties when they're 46 years old and there's going to be a huge transformation when there's 64 years old or something like that if you were to have like try to zoom in on the most important secondary progressed things that will happen during the entire life you can do that although during a typical consultation that's not usually how you're going to use the technique or is it I mean I assume I mean use the way and it depends I guess how you set up your practice I tend to work with clients annually for sort of year ahead staff but I guess what you're saying is that you can absolutely do it it's a wonderful thing but when you're doing that year like that lifelong progress trigger if you like in that three-month period most people won't have a retrograde a personal plan outstation direct or retrograde so if you do see that that's going to be hugely significant but the types of things that we all have at different points would be things like the progress on changing signs or making aspects back to the natal planets and so if you're going to look at sand in the moon phases I guess they would be some of those big things that you would look for over that life long span because you'll be able to see them you know this year or that year like three or four years will stand out using those particular progressions for everybody yeah and then for those people who are born in a period where there is going to be like Mercury Venus or Mars station direct or retrograde for sure for sure you would use those sure alright so can you see this chart yeah let's see Alan's progressions okay so this is the birth chart of Alan White and Alan White was he's funny he's like an astrologer but he was like an X he was like a Vietnam War of that trend that was in the Special Forces and he had Aries rising with with Mars and Aries in the first house in a day chart and the Sun and mercury in Capricorn in the tenth house so he was kind of a gruff kind of like a hard-ass and he was very blunt in his manner of communication and like like when he taught astrology when he taught aspect theory or Hellenistic aspect doctrine of like overcoming and hurling rays he would describe it as when we're looking at this we're trying to see you know who's on top and who's who as his way of describing the Hellenistic aspect doctrine of superior and inferior aspects yeah which is very Maz rising Aries rising I should say with Mars in the first yeah totally it's totally like you know very cliche type character he had like a right yeah it's like a big mustache and more like a special-forces hat and it was kind of a gruff guy anyways so this is his birth chart and we can see that the son when he was born is that like 10 Capricorn and mercury was direct and it's right there just passing passing the Sun so it's just a few degrees four degrees from the Sun in Capricorn moving direct and Venus is about one sign over at 18 degrees of Aquarius so it's about one sign away from the Sun so that's just the birth chart itself which is just a snapshot of the planets but now let me pull up his progress chart yeah I mean Chris the other thing too is that when people start to be able to recognize the phases if you like the relationship between the Sun and the personal planets like looking at his birth chart it's like okay Venus is starting to pull away from the Sun she's gonna progress into a retrograde period um you know at some point basically right and basically so this is the let me take the progress chart all the way back to when he was born which was in [Music] generalist okay there it is so yeah he was born January 1st 1942 so roughly around there let's say and so then you just advance it for one day for every year and eventually we see that his mercury changes signs you know what when he's eight years old it moves into Aquarius eventually Venus stations retrograde there in 1954 so he's what twelve years old when Venus stations direct stations retrograde initially in Aquarius yeah begins moving backwards eventually mercury 81 yeah right mercury stations retrograde at 26 Aquarius in the mid nineteen early 1970s when he's what do you say 31 years old yeah so you've got the ephemeris open right now you're looking okay I do I'm not brilliant people should not think that is I've just got the ephemeris sure yeah yeah that makes it easier okay so it's basically what happens I guess he's in his early to mid fifties with both Mercury and Venus stations direct within 24 hours of each other yes so what happens is if you advance it all the way to the early 1990s eventually you get to this point around 1992 1993 1994 where Mercury and Venus both station direct an Aquarius around the same time roughly or within a few years of each other in the early nineteen to mid 1990s so mercury stations direct at 11 degrees of Aquarius by 1993 in 1984 and Venus stations direct at 5 degrees of Aquarius by 1940 94 1995 and what happened is that he had been an astrologers since he'd been interested in and studied astrology since the 1960s and 1970s needed modern astrology but he was never fully happy with it he was always looking for something a little bit more precise then through some circumstances he discovered the translation project project hindsight that was happening in the 1990s and discovered Hellenistic astrology and was just like immediately drawn to and was enthralled with it and became very active as an associate of that project who helped them with various duties and eventually started to give lectures on the topic of Hellenistic astrology and helped them to promote it and what's interesting about that in terms of his story is that a few years later in the year I think 2000 or 2001 I talked about this in my book he was sent by project hindsight to go to the Northwest astrological conference and to run the project hindsight tradeshow booth at this conference which he did in order to help them promote the project and sell some of their translations and stuff like that and I've heard this story from several different astrologers but apparently what happened is late one night he was sitting in the bar and he was talking to a bunch of students of astrology about Hellenistic astrology and he was like regaling them with stories about this new tradition of astrology that was being rediscovered and they were all so excited that they asked him to give an impromptu lectures so he you know he wasn't there to give a lecture and he wasn't the speaker but they found an empty room and they went off and he pulled out this flip chart that had a bunch of diagrams of like the Thema Mundi and the planetary joys and all these different Hellenistic concepts and gave this impromptu lecture and all this students were so enthralled by it that they encouraged they were actually Kepler college students who were there having just completed the first year of Kepler College and they encouraged their teacher who was also in attendance to integrate this material into the curriculum and the teacher who was there in attendance was Dimitra George so Dimitra then goes to Maryland and studies with Allen and with Robert Schmitt learns Hellenistic astrology then creates a course around the subject and that's eventually how Hellenistic astrology is taught a Kepler and then I show up and take that course a few years later and then I write a book on it ten years later but the whole link in the chain is this guy whose chart were looking at discovering Hellenistic astrology in this few year period in the early to mid-1990s when his secondary progressed mercury and secondary progressed to Venus both station direct and his chart roughly about the same time yeah and I think that's a really great story Chris this is basically the lineage the the lineage of the modern revival of Hellenistic astrology and if I'm because I'm course empty I'm thinking about those station points and inserting them back into the needle chart and what aspects those planets were making as they stationed and so just so I can nail down the time line it was in the early to mid 90s that he got involved with hindsight and then it was in like 2000 or 2001 2002 that he went to Newark yeah impromptu lecture so the Venus station at 5:00 Aquarius a progressive inna station at 5:00 Aquarius his natal Pluto was at 5:00 leo so that puts the Venus into an exact aspect for a few years because Venus was at five for quite a few years in the opposition of the Pluto in his natal chart so because I've got the ephemeris here does that make sense yeah basically I mean you might also point out because he was Aries rising that Aquarius was his 11th house to begin with so he had two planets stationing in the 11th hole sign house and he met people that became close personal friends it was part of an alliance and a group of an astral of astrologers yeah he was a huge part of that and then it looks like that very hard eight years after the mercury stationed direct it had progressed forward to 13 Aquarius which brought it back into an exact trine aspect with his neighbor natal Jupiter which is that's 13 Gemini and I think that that would have been in the that early 2000 period where he went to Norwalk and gives us impromptu lecture and I think that's a fascinating you know sort of exposition of the Mercury's coming out of the retrograde it's making an aspect to natal Jupiter and we're getting this like will you just be our teacher almost like a golden experience that comes together really easily around that sure yeah so you know it's it's all of those things in terms of both paying attention to just what is the secondary progressed chart itself doing and are there important planetary alignments like retrograde stations taking place and some specific URI of the life or how are the secondary progressed planets related back to natal planets in terms of activating those placements as well yeah but anyways that was always one of my favorite examples of stations because as you said stations are extremely rare and some people never really even experience some certain types of stations like it's like a Venus retrograde stage yeah I mean most of us don't have been in a stretch where most of us I mean we're sort of straight six weeks out of every 18 month period so most of us are not you know our three months yeah just want to make sure yeah the connection is going to behave itself yeah the Mars Richard yeah let's see yeah the Mars retrograde should most of us will have nothing to do with that and it is possible can you still hear me okay yeah there's a little bit of a delay but just keep talking and then I'll figure out when you've stopped there's like a 10-15 second delay okay cool cool yeah there is it is possible that if you're born shortly after mercury stations direct and you live to be 80 or 90 years old you may miss mercury progressed retrograde in your chart completely like if you're born at the very end of a Mercury retrograde you can miss it okay so yeah and and as you said as you keep going further out past mercury the rest of the other planets and their stations are you know less and less frequent so planetary stations can be really important and can show important turning points in the life but yeah but that's just one you know consideration what are some other I know one of the other big ones and the that tons of people talk about has become a really major interpretive principle is the secondary progressed lunation phases and lunation cycles essentially right yeah so we're looking at the phases of the Moon in the progress chart and this is something that I have a particular affection for shall we say and this goes back to my love of materna psa's work where he talks about the innermost parts about being rising and falling or ebbing and then growing based on the relationship with moon and so the idea that the progressed moon phases so and when you're working that out you are looking exclusively in the progress chart at the relationship between the progress son and the progress moon and what you're looking at is you know what phase are my progress sign and progress moon creating and how is that shifting the tone or the pulse of my life for a particular period of time and there's a whole sort of philosophical theory that I bring into this to do with the way the moon being one of the light givers sets a cycle to do with fortune and abundance or even success and there's a number of examples that I've got where when you progress into the bright half of the moons a cycle is this too much in progress sorry this is like no I think it's good I'm just trying to think about how to visualize it for people that you're just looking at for is there a new moon that takes place after you're born or is there a full moon that takes place after you're born yeah so you want to look for both because each one will be different or significant and then the idea that in addition to the new moon that happens after you're born and they'll be two or three of them over the course of your 90 days slash 90 year life so the progress new moon itself is like a major new beginning like a rebirth or a fresh start you know you are kind of starting over or starting again or striking out in a new direction and then you've got there's a few stepping stones based on the phases the moon moves through before you get into your progress full moon phase but the progressive full moon phase itself is definitely a period of culmination and you're at the height of your the moon is most visible so your your height of you know being visible or being seen and there's a strong accumulation energy that we can have around that progressed full moon right and do you have have you had blue nations do you like talking about your chart when you talk about like I always really a lot of this stuff back to my own chart I don't it be obnoxious about that but sometimes it's useful because you know that's when you have the most direct sort of visceral experience of the transit and so sometimes it stands out the most or you come to the deepest understanding if you do get to experience something astrologically like that because it becomes not just an abstract concept but something you've actually lived through and you can relate to you know what that means yeah like I have but I don't like talking about my chart maybe that's my New Moon nature coming out and they go I talked about my shot but I do have a really good example of King George Queen Elizabeth's dad with the progressive moon rises okay do you always put that up would you wouldn't put that on yeah go ahead and share it if you've got it yeah so should I put the natal chart up first so we can use that you can see that first or yes let's see the natal charts we can see where the Sun Moon were originally and what their relationship were okay so let me just find sorry he's all mine I think did I put oh we're just gonna roll through there we go well they would guard so here is King George um so this is Queen Elizabeth dad this is the guy who came became King when Edward abdicated so this is the father of the current Queen of England and originally he wasn't supposed to become king but it was just that his brother decided he didn't want to do it because he fell in love with somebody or something like that yes so Edward was in love with Wallis Simpson who was a divorcee and the throne the Royal at the time the British monarchs were not allowed to marry royalty so what happened was Edward and George's dad died in early 1936 which automatically made Edward King because he was the eldest George was the younger son and the spare if you like the air in the spare as they say in rural families so Edward became king but he was already in love with Wallis and the whole of 1936 was this sort of confusing year for the British monarchy because Edward was going to have to choose he couldn't have he couldn't be king and stay with the woman he loved he could have one or the other and George is obviously sitting there he is Asajj but he is a balsamic moon or dark moon person in his natal chart plus the moon is in the sign of Scorpio so he's he's quite a private guy and you know tends to kind of maybe prefer to stay out of the limelight sure and when you say he's at balsamiq moon it's because his moon is it it's at the very end of its phase so it's you know at the end of its cycle it's decreasing in light so it's getting darker and darker before it eventually reaches the exact new moon which is when the moon can joins the Sun which it's about what 30 degrees are like one sign away from doing so it's in the very last 30 degrees of its cycle and that's what the balsamiq phases it's the very last part of that sun moon cycle yes yes so for people who aren't familiar with the moon phases modern astrology we use a template of eight moon phases that starts when the Sun and Moon are conjunct and it's as if the circle is divided into eight sections so the opposition is the full moon we've got the two squares which are the core and and then we have this sort of midway in a midway between the conjunction and a square or the square coming back to the conjunction and essentially to figure out your moon phase you start at the Sun in your chart or in your progress chart and you have to move forward through the zodiac in zodiac or order and you have to go as far through the signs to find the moon depending on where your moon is so we have to go almost a full revolution to find the moon for King George and so that's how we know you know we've gone all the way through yeah I guess yeah we should definitely explain that because that's a big concept if people aren't familiar with the moon phase doctrine sure so the idea with your progressed moon phase is that you will get more or less light through your progress moon phase then you will have at different times you know then you might have had in your natal moon phase that makes sure and also just that in the secondary progressed lunation of phase just the basic structure is that at a new moon it's sort of like you're starting out a new 30 year cycle of your life and there's new beginnings versus when you're at the full moon it can sometimes be seen as like a period of culminations or yeah there are sort of keywords like that yeah absolutely absolutely the quarter moons are really dynamic busy periods where there's a lot more action that's going on yeah and you went with a lot of my predictive work I do a lot of work with people who are progressing through the balsamic or dark moon phase which is often a time of closure completion or endings which is symbolically congruent with what the moon is doing at that point in her cycle sure so what's the V so he was born so George was born in 1895 and what's his what's the secondary progressed example with him so here here we go so here we have his secondary progressive chart for when he became king so this is for well it's actually for the first of Jan 19 36 so this is the year in which his father dies and his brother becomes king that happens in January 36 and in December of 36 and would officially abdicates the throne without having had an official coronation and George becomes king so the line of succession changes and the progress moon phase that George comes into is that progressed first quarter moon phase so we're looking at his progress son at to Aquarius and his progress moon at 3 taurus so the moon has just progressed into that ninety degree degree or square aspect to the progress son so that's put him into that first quarter phase and basically what I've seen in you know sort of exam laughter example is that when we progress into this first quarter moon phase in this moon phase the Greeks called this I can never run with the Greek word exactly but they refer to it as like the teenager phase where the moon is half-full and growing so the moon is now reach like half light and for the next half you know the next sort of two weeks or fourteen days which would be fourteen years by progression the moon is gonna be in her bright half of her cycles so this tends to correlate you know we say the progressed full moon is culmination the progressive full moon phases culmination I actually see the success starting at the progressed first quarter moon phase so this is where you know he becomes king and what's interesting in the example with King George didn't really want this job but he he moved into what ultimately became his most prominent cycle or phase of life as the moon comes into its prominence okay got it so the secondary progressed lunation phase cycle is always looking at the relationship between the Sun and the Sun and the moon in the secondary progress chart so it's not relating it back to the natal chart necessarily or at least in terms of just establishing the phases it's just in your secondary progress chart what relationship does the moon have to the Sun and is it near one of those important turning points like a noon with new moon or full moon or first or second third quarter moon or what have you yes yeah and those four phases that you just described Chris the phases that begin with a traditional aspect tend to be really the start of more busy periods in a person's life right because you have the new moon which is like the start of the thirty almost thirty years cycle since it takes about 28 29 30 years for the moon to you know complete a complete cycle around the zodiac can come back and can join the Sun so you have the the new moon which is the start you have the first quarter which is the halfway point essentially before you eventually get to the full moon and then you have the third quarter which is the halfway point between the full moon and new moon yes so we're looking at is the progress first quarter moon if you like given time the moon will sort of progress over to here and then the progress Sun will have moved forward a bit too but we would get the opposition forming between the two approximately here let's say and then the moon will progress around here and form that next square the Sun will have moved on a little bit at that point to approximately here do you happen to have any other progressed lunation examples ah at the top of your head all right yeah yes we can do the David Bowie example if you like the other this there's a second piece to this part with King George is that he wasn't well he was never a well man and he was king for about fourteen years 14 years 16 years he was basically king from the time he entered the progressed first quarter moon phase until he came into the progressed third quarter moon phase so all the while the probe the moon progressed into this bright dynamic part of the chart the moon got over here and unfortunately he was very sick and he ended up passing away quite young which was unexpected so the interest on not that it's great that he died but we can see that he was sort of king in that bright part of the Moon cycle for tennis fans out there Pete Sampras who had an approximately fourteen year career at the top of the tennis world it started when he went into his progressive first quarter moon phase and it lasted until he progressed into that progressed third quarter moon phase okay another example off the top of my head is the Bill Gates listing example for Microsoft so this is a good example I think it happened we didn't prep this example but it was about 86 off the top of my head I think Bill had progressed into his first quarter moon phase when Microsoft listed and he obviously went and became very wealthy overnight okay that's a good example because he didn't create Microsoft overnight that was a come he'd been working on through a number of iterations in the years leading up to it but he starts to really see the success of that with the progressed first quarter moon phase and then to a different sorry go uh no actually go ahead and with yours I was gonna mention because I've had it one lunation you tell us about your story um yeah I'm not gonna get into it too much but I had mine was weird because I was born in early November of 1984 and my son was in early Scorpio and what happened is that around 2005 my son progressed into Sagittarius so I had a secondary progressed secondary progressive change signs yeah in grass which is big enough in and of itself yeah but the moon caught up to it at the same time and conjoined it also around 2005 at 0 degrees of Sagittarius so the moon changed signs and then I had a secondary progressed lunation and then what was interesting about that and another thing we we haven't mentioned yet is that that lunation that Sun Moon conjunction happened within three degrees of the South node so it was also a solar eclipse and so that was the year that I discovered Hellenistic astrology and then right around the time of that solar eclipse basically and my secondary progress chart is when I moved a project hindsight to study at this translation project and started you know very intensely studying Hellenistic astrology and then eventually not too long after that or within a year of that would start writing my book on the topic that is very cool yeah yeah your South nerds at the very end of school PR right yeah it's a 27 scorpion 7 Scorpio yeah I'm just looking at there yeah I mean I can't thank you let me share theirs I've got it yeah oh yeah if you want to put it out for sure yeah I'll just share the secondary progressed short so that's what the secondary progress chart looked like in like November of 2005 was that a new moon conjoining at 0 degrees of Sagittarius just a few degrees off of the self node so that it was not just a secondary progressed new moon which in and of itself would be the start of a new 3rd your cycle and like laying the foundation for something that would grow and develop over the next few decades of my life which turned into my you know passion and then study and sort of scholarship on Hellenistic astrology but it was also an eclipse which almost emphasized it as perhaps being more important than it might be otherwise yes I think the other feature that might have added to the significance a you're right it's an eclipse which is going to give the power and it's pretty tight like three degree that would be a total so what we're saying essentially is that the let me just grab what day November were you born what's your birth date the first November first okay so basically what happened three weeks after you were born is there was the solar eclipse in the sky yeah yeah and so that solar eclipse becomes your first progress new moon in your chart which is hugely significant Anini which was just a great example that literally it's like if some astrologer was standing around in 1984 and they saw that I was born on November 1st and then they would see that like 30 days after I was born or not 30 there wasn't even 30 days it was white like 20 days after I was born right yeah yeah there were there would be a solar eclipse they would say because the solar eclipse happened you know 20 years after you were born or 20 days after you're born your 20th year of life I mean a significant turning point will take place in that year that statement would have ended up being true for that those symbolic reasons huge and I think in and of itself that is succinct and it's a complete forecast it doesn't need anything else but the extra bit that did happen that was also going on is that your Midheaven is in early Sagittarius and this is still a couple of degrees off that exact Midheaven but i think that would add to the power of that event to changing the professional direction or forward thrust in general of your life because that's all what the Midheaven kind of represents yeah definitely and you know that was the start of a bunch of other things I my friendship with Nick dig and bust and eventually my getting involved in the Association for young astrologers and becoming the president of that and eventually becoming the president of the local NCR group and then eventually research director a lot of it grew out of that time and all began happening shortly after that which is just interesting since it was also taking place in my 11th hole sign house and just that idea of friends and groups and alliances and things also being important absolutely absolutely which yeah which is so important for you with the way your chart is constructed yeah that's a really great example Chris yeah so varied is really important so this is a really good example of how and why yeah and this was just another one of those things where like I was saying earlier sometimes having that experience yourself sometimes and sometimes you have to wait a long time and to wait you know 20 years for this this experience but when you do have it sometimes it can create a really visceral understanding of what those periods can be about and that's something that I can't even convey it's like I'm giving a summary of it but it's like if you had lived through my life at that point and seeing what a huge turning point in a new beginning it was you would understand even better how well the astrological symbolism actually fits the developments that occurred in my life in that year but even me just summarizing it in that way is kind of useful as a little little example yeah absolutely absolutely and you're right Chris I mean if anyone's listening who's over the age of 30 they have had a progress new moon and it would just be a matter of tracking back to figure out when and for our listeners who are preset in return or pre-30 many of them mate because you can have a progress new moon when you're five when you're 17 or when you're thirty you five no it's got to be before you're 30 so sometime in the first 30 years of life you would have a progress new moon and it is interesting because it's so cook it so it's at I mean I don't want to sort of necessarily use the word that often gets overused but it is a reverse you know you you begin again you you start in a fresh direction one of the descriptive or interpretive descriptions I use for this with clients is you've got skills and experience because you've been an adult and you've been living and you've got you know you've got stuff behind you already this progressed new moon it's that idea of you're putting down seeds or you're like a babe learning to walk it's all new again because either your circumstances have changed your focus have changed or some other significant reframe has gone on and it's just not like what it was before so it takes a little while to find our legs and we can feel bit wobbly on our feet but we're often called into something that is then going to be huge for that next cycle right definitely and then for me that was learning how to read ancient texts had a learning Greek I'd like learned the Greek alphabet learning how to write scholarship and read like academic scholarship on the history of astrology and all sorts of things like that that then took ten years eventually to turn it into a book and you know who knows what comes next my next thing I'm coming up on a secondary progressed full moon that's gonna take place here in the next I don't know a few years not too long yeah if you yeah cuz you're just thirty right like you turned 30 was it 33 33 no I was like you were more than 30 now because we're all now the time is flying by yeah yeah so you'll have your progress full moon in the next two years right because you're 13 years in to this now but that's a great example because you knew how to speak and write in English but that didn't help you when you were trying to get into eights and astrological texts and you had to learn to speak and write all over again that's exactly the kind of thing that happens at the progress new moon the fact that you know how to do stuff in some circumstances sort of doesn't help you because your circumstances have changed well and it's also useful and interesting for the book that balsamic phase as well in terms of illustrating that it's not just about sometimes closing things down or wrapping out the cycle or things ending but sometimes you can see a preview and you can start to see sort of the shadows of where things are heading once you hit that new moon phase and you have the new beginnings some of these seeds of that you can see it's sort of starting to be laid in the balsamic phase sometimes like for me that was going to Kepler college and going to college for astrology and knowing that I wanted to learn the history of astrology and I wanted to go that route I didn't know where it would take me I just had some well idea of like this is my long-term goal to become a professional astrologer and by the time of that New Moon I had started out on a completely different path in terms of my studies of astrology and suddenly going into ancient astrology which is something I never anticipated or intended but you know there were some necessary precursors in terms of going to school at Kepler that eventually led me there and that would have happened you know towards the end of that balsamiq phase yes and I think this is a really critical point that the progressed full stomach phase kicks in somewhere between three and four years before the progressing your moon will happen so if you can find your progress new moons which should be fairly easy because you literally just look up the table of knew go to the time and date website look up moon phases for your area in the year of your birth and find the new moons that happened in the three months preceding your verse there you'll progress new moons the three to four years before each of those new moons you're in that balsamiq period which is introspective hermit-like and it is about closure and completion you're pulling in and one of the most common or most productive uses of that cycle is actually to go to school or study something whatever your age whatever your circumstances you're not really interested in like the worldly ambitions of climbing the corporate ladder in that time but the in the other thing I see happen a lot people study in that timeframe which means a necessary pulling back from one social commitments or even one's financial commitments because your focus is on the study and the other thing I say people doing is women go off and have their babies in that time frame which is a huge hermit like you know it's it's it's reclusive with a purpose but you are not doing your sort of normal type things and then all of the discovery and the experiences you have in that balsamiq period balsamiq period feed into you know where you strike out and where you go in the progress new moon so it is it's a really important point to make sure how they it's a really important technique just in terms of everybody can immediately help to conceptualize or contextualize where they're currently at right now in their life and what phase they're in and if they're in a sort of a new moon type phase where you're starting out a new beginning but you may not realize you know how things are new or how what you're doing now is laying the foundation for the next 30 years or you may be at a culmination point like at a full moon or something and and some things that you started 14 years ago are now coming to fruition in some way or you may be at one of those other turning points like the first quarter or the third quarter phase hmm yeah and those those turning points are really interesting and there's a number of ways you can divide up the lune the lunar phases themselves is it is it by waxing versus waning you know the growth half which is new to fall that's waxing and then from fall back to the new that's the waning or the decline or the shedding I'll call it shedding we were offloading whereas the waxing is more of an accumulative half and then you have the bright half and the dark half so from the third quarter moon phase around to the first quarter moon phase the moon is at least half dark or less and so that's there is more of an introspective tone there we've got to put a bit more effort into things to get the results we want and then we hit that first quarter moon phase where we come into the bright half and from there around to the third quarter phase that that seems to be more of our success abundance you know being out in the world taking some of those boxes but you kind of want to know where you are because you want to know is this a good time to push forward should I climb the mountain I'm going up the mountain or am i starting to come down and share what I've learned from having been up there and it's huge and then from a technical perspective you can actually flavor how you interpret a transit by bringing in the progress moon phase because it will orient the direction that that transit goes in that's probably a talk for another time butter or the Morrises yeah so a large part your consulting work is talking with clients about this as a long-term phase and helping them to understand where they're at in their life and the actions that they're taking now within the context of a larger cycle like this huge yes that's exactly it and the progress moon phases are kind of the the keel the crocks for that so this is one of the first things that you'll calculate when you're preparing a client session yeah yeah yeah so I print off about a natal chart and you know prep the natal chart and then I'll print off the by will with the needle and the progressed and then I draw the transits in on top and then you know and even I would because I like to just put everything right and then there's the kitchen sink that you can draw and like well yeah so it's your you know maybe you're in a third house perfected here but you're having that while you're in your you know progressed balsamic phase this is different from where you were twelve years ago what you know you can then once you get comfortable with different techniques you can interweave them to other sure but yes i would definitely look because of the cyclical nature of progressions that that's what one of the things that first drew me to progressions need you know there is that cycle i also liked that it you know the difference one of the technical differences between secondary progressions and solar are directions is that secondary progressions preserves the relationships between the planets that the moon moves faster than the sun and we see that in the progress chart that's why we wrote is well that's actually really cool looking at the secondary progressive chart is that the sun in secondary progressions moves forward about one degree a year and the moon moves forward about one degree a month basically right yes that's that's the default average and yeah so you see over the course of the year your progressive moon is gonna move anywhere from about twelve to fifteen degrees and over the course of a year your progress son goes one degree and so there you get that sense of one moving faster than the other and one of the timing techniques are often encouraged to students who are learning about progressions is to start tracking the progress moons for their chart because the progressive moons moving a degree per month approximately every you know two and a half years or so the progressive moon is going to change signs and you will get to experience what the mood shift feels like based on whatever sign your moon is progressing through so that's a fun one you know for all the people who thinks having the scorpio moon is a bad thing wait you know you've had we probably had your progress through and go through scorpio that will give you that flavor of Scorpio moon for a period of time right and in that way I mean especially in terms of studying short-term stuff on a monthly basis or a yearly basis secondary progressions because most of the planets move so slowly in secondary progressions you're really mainly paying attention to the moon most of the time and most secondary progress charts right yeah the moon the moon's phases you're right because even the progress on or progress mercury they're not going to change signs every year and they're not going to make aspects back to the natal chart every year so in some ways you sort of scan to see if something's happening and if it is happening you know it's a significant event and you want to weave that into your forecast and if nothing is happening then you know you move on to your other techniques you know the other part though when you dive into predictive astrology is that not every year is important and not every year will change your life Chris you mentioned your year when you were 20 I went through a huge amount of changes when I was 29 to do with yes at Saturn return year but for me that was also progressed a new moon year at the same time so there was a couple of and that's important because sometimes astrologers mention that that because they progressed lunation phase is 28 years approximately in the center is return cycle is about the same that sometimes they'll sync up in this weird way yes well what tends to happen is that when you have your Saturn return you will be progressing through the moon phase that you were born under basically okay so when you have your center returned around the age of 28 the moon is gonna return back to roughly the same relationship it had with the Sun when you were born yes in your progress chart so if you were born under a first quarter moon that's your natal moon phase in that late 20s period you will progress back into the the first quarter moon phase so if yeah and then depending on what moon phase you're born in a few borning yeah that that's how there's one way you can personalize the Saturn Return right there is bring in the sign and phase of the progress moon yeah got it okay and there's just a couple other points I want to touch on before we get towards the end of this in terms of interpretive principles one of them we kind of mentioned already alluded to them but one of them is in grasses just when do planets change signs in the secondary progress chart so you are you already mentioned that the moon changes signs at least every two and a half years basically right yes yeah you do have to double check because you know some people have you know you moon can be a bit quicker or a bit slower but between every two to three years is the safe bet yeah okay and then the Sun will change signs at least every thirty years because that's about how long it takes for the Sun to move through one sign of the zodiac is thirty days so that translates to thirty years in secondary progressions yes and the trick with your progress son is the age at which it first changes signs can be anywhere between 0 and 30 that depends on how far into the sign the Sun was when you were born so Chris you we can do each of us very quickly your son was at 9 Scorpio so loosely eyeballing that you're about 21 years old when your son 20 to 21 years old progressed from Scorpio into SADS which is just what you talked about yeah that was a new man that was that new moon if somebody's born with the Sun Natalie at 25 degrees of the sign it's gonna progress and change when you're five years old once you know how old you are when the Sun first changes signs my progression you can basically add 30 it gets a little bit off you know there's a you know you gotta have a plus or minus variance here because we're eyeballing it but yet when the Sun progress the progress son changes signs that's one of the most significant events that I look for so to what extent is that a timing technique that just shows like a shift in the person's life in terms of the sequence of events or the chapters of their life let's say verses to what extent would you take that as like a shift in terms of the person's Sun sign and like a character or psychological sense like you know how much does a person move from being like one Sun sign to being another Sun sign if the Sun shifts or do you not really interpret it in that way I totally interpret in that way so I definitely take that idea of the psychological shift that if the Sun interpretive Lee is your identity or your person if it sort of stands for you especially if we're talking add a chart person then that Sun changing signs by progression what I say to clients is it's like you've had a personality transplant and if and the way that I language it with clients is from the keywords and concepts all the way back in beginner astrology to do with elements and modes so if you're a Scorpio Natalie or I'm a Pisces Natalie and we so both of our sons progress from a water sign into a fire sign which we know is a huge different shift that the quality of the elemental change alone is phenomenal but I went from cut from mutable to Cardinal because I went from Pisces to Aries which is like getting your mojo on mutable signs are scattered as all get out but cardinal signs have got a bit of a mission so that's kind of nice and you went from fixed immutable so you went from being maybe very slow very measured or even more like planned to I can just roll with this and you know neither is good or bad it's just that's the quality of the difference that you've gone through yeah and I could definitely see that shift even just in a personality sense in terms of the elements and going from like a water sign to a fire sign and being much more introspective and sort of like shy or you know internal or something like that to being much more extroverted and much more social and lots of other keywords like that right around that time of the Sun shifting from Scorpio and Sagittarius totally and the other way I describe it is it's like oh look I've got my scarf so I can do my little dance here your core doesn't change like you still Scorpio at heart Chris you know that's just really why I'm still like these but it's like the cloak that you're wearing that that everything is being filtered through has changed so you know Scorpio could be black that would work and then you put on a cloak that's much more vibrant and the filtration like white is more open than black basically all fire if I had used my pink thing behind me but I think people get the drift the core is still the same but the filter or the lens that's what the progress sign of the Sun is giving you and it can be hugely different so the elements oh and if you watch if people are trying to think about it I would say we're doing you know predictive astrology with progressions which is a weird technique but we're going to use beginner astrology or basic astrology concepts to describe it you're gonna say to the client you feel like you've come out of your shell or you feel like you've got more confidence or you're more outgoing or you feel like you want to speak up a bit more that would be progressive sign in a water site or natal sign in a water sign and progressing into a fire sure that makes sense and in that way it's that's one of the other things that makes secondary progressions so interesting this idea that you might be able to see some of the different phases of growth and development of the individual and of the natal chart by literally advancing it and watching the chart grow and progress and develop in that way and in that that way I really like the key word for this technique where we call it progressions because you're literally watching the natal chart progress or developer grow in time it's like the unfoldment of the person you know whether you take the psyche soul psychological component you just take the development of who they are you can track how that shifts and then the other thing with a progressive planet changing signs that shift is permanent it doesn't go back particularly if you're looking at the progress son it could go back if it's like mercury progressed and it's retrograde yes okay I understand that with some very technical listeners we'll call me out on that in those instances it can go back but progress unchanging signs will never go back if you're Venus or mercury or Mars is not retrograde and it progresses into a new sign that's it progress Mars changing signs really interesting because it usually only happens once and it's a very profound shift in the way you motivate yourself even in the way you get aroused by life you know Mars is a planet often associated with passions or sexual energies and Mars progressing it's like what turns you on changes now you're going to notice that in the bedroom but you're also going to notice that in life in terms of what you're interested in so there's a lot there and that's one of the things that you're going talk about actually in a workshop soon as your focus gun progressed Venus right yes actually I do have a live webinar that I'm giving with lovely Tony through astrology University and that's coming up the last weekend in February and it is on progress Venus so we've been doing I've been doing a series of progressed webinars with Tony so if you're kind of just coming into that we've got webinars on like an introduction to progression we've looked at progressive moon phases that type of thing and we're now doing a webinar in each of the personal planets by progression so we've done the progress son I think but yeah we're up to Venus and so we're just gonna look exclusively what is the Venus cycle about how do we see that in a progression chart what what do we need to know when we're tracking our progress Venus is it gonna affect our love life is it gonna affect a different part of our life so and if you you know if you're listening to this and it's after late February the video recording will be available still official awesome on your website which is Kelly's astrology calm yes okay awesome so that's in grasses and then the final thing we meant to mention is just exact aspects and this is both when to applying aspects that are still applying in the birth chart when will those go exact by secondary progression just in the secondary progress chart as one thing and then the other thing is when will secondary progressed planets hit exact aspects to natal placements that were in the birth chart yeah personally I just look at when the progressed planets will aspect the natal planets so I take that kind of aspect configuration but I do not it is personal preference and there are some astrologers who look for the aspects that form in the progress chart itself I find that they tend to be a little more maybe internal like if you're looking for sort of more an event or for the person to be you're really aware of a shift or a change I tend to say that more when the progress planet hits the natal planner so there's that component and that's really significant and that's where you are I guess using the progressions as like a trigger right it's like almost like a long-term or a slow transit yeah I had one of those a few years ago actually oh yeah tell us so Lisa pointed this out so that it was like several years ago now it was probably like six or seven years ago but I had secondary progressed Mars square it moved into my first whole sign house and then it squared my needles Sun in Scorpios so my natal Suns at like nine Scorpio and secondary progressed Mars came up to about nine Aquarius but because it's secondary could progress Mars it moves like super slowly so was grinding over to that degree for a couple of years and what happened it was so funny because at the time I didn't really understand I wasn't seeing it come up in a lot of other techniques and it was only in retrospect that Lisa pointed out that it really made sense in the context of secondary progressions which I hadn't been paying attention to for for a number of years because I was more focused on some of the Timelord techniques but what happened is that I started seeing this like are you vedic practitioner who recommended some herbs because i was like trying to focus on my book around 2010 and like writing and i wanted to get more healthy and more focused and stuff and said they recommended this like herbal regimen of a bunch of different indian herbs that i was taking in this mixture and i started taking it one summer really regularly like they had me take it like three times a day and i didn't know you know what was in this stuff but i was sort of taking their advice and hoping it would help me to focus more and over the course of that summer suddenly i started having a negative reaction to it I started getting sunburns and yeah and so all the sudden out of nowhere over the course of like a few month period after I started taking this stuff suddenly I couldn't go outside for more than five minutes in direct sunlight without getting like a really terrible sunburn and I had never had this issue before in my life and suddenly it just like changed my whole life because I couldn't go outside without just like slathering myself in sunscreen and without wearing a hat and sunglasses and all this other stuff so I ended up staying inside like a lot more often and like not going out and and really shifted things and I realized pretty quickly that the only thing that I had done had changed recently as I was taking this these herbs and I ended up looking up the herbs and one of them I found on the American Cancer Association's website said that it leads to Sun sensitivity sensitivity yeah and so what sucked those I stopped taking the herbs but then something happened where it stayed in my system or it's dated my skin for like a few years and there was like at least a two if not three year period where I still was extremely sensitive to the Sun and kept getting these terrible terrible sunburns and it all happened while secondary progressed Mars came up to and squared my needle son that is I mean I wish Kira was on this cool almost you know our friend who is an astrologer and a naturopath and it should be all over that but I mean I do a little bit of health and medical a stroke just because you see it but of course in addition to the nature of Mars being inflammatory and you know associated with redness and burns and it being in a hard aspect to your son you know this is where I kind of bring in not necessarily the kitchen sink but just to sort of specify more specific your add a chart so Mars is the most sort of harming planet for you so almost like you took a poison and it had this it wasn't like a poison that was going to kill you but it did have a negative or a detrimental impact and a progressed Mars aspect even if you're just using it exact to the degree you can have almost two years of Mars progressing through that aspect and those are really interesting because you've got this specific energy coming in you know I bet you felt I'm not a bit but theory would tell us that you felt incredibly frustrated or aggravated in general from a psychological perspective that either you were annoyed at this issue or you were generally annoyed in life that you were constantly having to make adjustments and accommodations between what you wanted to do and what other people were demanding of you right although it's funny because it's like one of those instances where like this isn't psychologically or inherently sick like this thing it's like no I was actually literally getting terrible sunburns and guys yeah and couldn't go outside very literal manifestation of an astrological transit so actually sometimes even though you could say there might be like side things like that psychologically it's one of those ones I like to refer to because it's an instance where if I was to get in an argument like a psychological astrologer who was trying to say that all transits are basically just psychological or inherently psychological and it's not about the literal event you know sometimes it really is about the symbolism indicating a literal event or concrete event that will occur in the natives life a hundred percent and that's where I do like to you know be aware at least of how the planets and the charts you know the symbols and the chat can shop physically because I do see this you know people have fertility problems that are specific to a particular cycle and the cycle ends and the problem goes away or they have a health condition that is specific to something that is being triggered and there's no as you said there's no psychological component other than that I'm annoyed I'm not well but it's not like you're going through a psychological development it is just a purely the other way that you see it is you know things can manifest where it's actually not the person it's the circumstance around them and they have to then decide how they respond to that basically right but at least sometimes I mean that's one of the useful things about astrology or about this technique is if you can figure out what the thing is that astrologically is indicating that event or that series of events or even if it is a psychological thing that mood in the person's life during that time you can sometimes then indicate or figure out or deduce when it's going to end or when it's going to lighten up a little bit and that's where there's a real sort of value in astrology in terms of timing and prediction and things like that hugely sorry and from my that's that's one one of the things clients love is that you can say look you're in this cycle whether it's a transit or a progression or some combination of the two or a perfection or a diary period whatever part of the kitchen sink you prefer you know this thing start this is what it looks and feels like and this is when it started and particularly when the client is called consciously cognizant of that and they're like yes I'm very aware that this event began all these feelings began at this time then we can say well if it did begin as theory tells us it probably should have at the time we expected it to we can anticipate a lessening of intensity if not a resolution totally at the end of the activation whatever that we wrote is if it's progressive anus unfortunately sometimes they're really good and they only last six months if your progressive anus is going really quickly so that's just the difference between Venus and Mars yeah and I think in this context that would that one degree range of exactness seems to be really critical or really key or at least in that instance with Mars it was for me it was really the onset was when it started applying within a degree of exactness I think and the intense period was around when it was exact and then once it had moved about a degree away from exactness is when things really started to clear up and resolve themselves yeah and I think that would be the maximum or that I would use for a progressed aspect like that because one degree applying for Mars one degree applying exact and then one degree separating that can give you four or five years and so it is good to be you know this is the build-up or the fade-out period definitely you know that's what the point of having the orbs are and then be really specific about the exact timeframe in the middle there sure definitely yeah okay so that's second area now list we're almost finished I know we're way over time we're at an hour and 42 right now but I think we've covered quite a bit so you're not big on secondary progressed aspects of planets to planets except for the lunation cycle I mean I've seen a few times that sometimes that does seem really important but I don't have any examples that I can really invoke right now so we don't need to dwell on it there were a few questions from listeners who submitted questions about secondary progressions from are queuing for our Q&A episode and we decided to not answer those there because we knew we were going to do this follow-up episode you want to answer a few of those like totally okay so there's a few here I don't know which ones you're interested in do you want to read one off look so I think we answered the first one oh the fixed stars I would love to know how important are the locations of the fixed stars on a natal chart and even on the progressed so I won't I'm gonna give like a very short succinct answer here when a progress planet when a planet progresses over a fixed you will draw in or experience the symbolism of the mythology of that speak staff for the period of time that that planet is conjunct the fixed star I would only use a conjunction for a fixed star and the very brief example I have of that is Queen Elizabeth's annus horribilis mercury rules her I see in Taurus and one year her mercury not Mercury Venus rules her Taurus I see I should make up my pattern and Venus progressed over 26 Algol 26 Taurus Algol which is one of the more difficult stars and she's on record giving a speech saying she had one of her most difficult year which was the annus horribilis two of her four children got divorced that year including Charles and Diana and her favorite castle burned to the ground so she described that as being a high stress year relative to family because Venus for her rules the Taurus I see so that would be a very quick example of that to do work if you work with the fixed stars or you want to incorporate them you will definitely see them come up timing wise and I just remembered yeah we had one or two really good examples of like secondary progressed planets hitting the ascendant and I do you want to try to get those in before we wrap I mean the Clinton example was more progressed Sun hitting the Venus the strong Venus and then the Whitney Houston example progressed Sun going angular which is like the progress I'm going nuclear right oh really good I mean do you want to do that yeah let's do that really quick because I felt like when we talked about that and the prep for this those were really good examples that would demonstrate other interesting modifications of things that you can do with secondary progressions and and those ended up being ones that you actually really emphasize in practice planets hitting secondary progressed or natal angles right yeah I do you know the angles are like my experience of the angles is that they're like these power points in the chart and so if you have a planet like the Sun or the moon or an angular ruling planet hitting the progressing orbiting angle it's like it gets plugged in so I can throw Whitney on the screen right away so she was one of the first examples so here's Whitney Houston's birth child so she is a natal sixth house son which we can see down here in Leo and at some point in time by progression the son will progress to the end of Leo so it'll chat it'll cross into the go when she's about 14 years old and then about four years later the son progresses over here on us she's about 18 years old and then a few years after that the son progresses over the descender and when the son progresses over the descendant we a little needle descendant at eight degrees at virgo the natal descendant exactly so let me just get rid of the drawing rule because you can't have the drawing tool and change your chart so there we go so here's her progress chart I just threw up January 1995 so it's actually would have been better to do January of 1986 so Whitney Houston sort of came out of nowhere she was from a musical family and she had a lot of talent that was recognized from a young age but her mother made her stay in school even though she was starting to attract attention from Clive Davis while she was still a teenager but her mom wouldn't give her permission so I thought that was a really interesting example of the Sun progressing sort of through the sixth house and even crossing into the whole sign seventh I mean I've seen more power around the angular degree itself so here we are early 1986 she's finally allowed to she signed her recording contract the year prior and this is the year that she sort of kind of goes she just comes out of nowhere she's got the number one song she's beating you know white music bands during this time and she just does so well for that late eighties period once her son has now moved into that more angular or electric position so so she became very prominent when her sixth house son basically moved up to and conjoined the closest angle or the first angle that it would hit which is the degree of the natal descendant yes and that's a really good point that you've kind of alluded to there Chris is that if the son is going to progress about 90 degrees a degree / sort of year of life it will probably only hit one angle in the course of your lifetime and the point at which it does progress over an angle is going to be a really a year of activation where you gain some confidence you move into perhaps a more dynamic period if you're born with the Sun kind of in the first house or early in the second house you might have to be fairly old before this happens if you're born with the Sun in you know a cadent house or even a seceding house then sometime through the more productive or middle years of life this shift will happen okay I have another really good example of that if you want to look at it yeah I'm sort of it's similar very similar concept so this is actually Trump Trump's chart oh yes so this is one of the ones and this is something I didn't see during the election because I you know it's like I was writing my book that year and trying to finish it and didn't do as much research as I could have been didn't throw every technique I could have at the chart but in the aftermath of the election once he won I started going back through all the techniques that I would you know could think about or have used otherwise and this is one of the really cool ones that I didn't see until afterwards was Trump's secondary progressions were actually really interesting during the election so first let's take a look at his so Donald Trump's birth chart which is let me see here so sharing screen so this is Donald Trump's birth chart where his ascendant is at 29 55 degrees of Leo so it's that much commented on you know ascendant that's conjunct the fixed star Regulus which when he was born was still also at about 29 degrees of Leo and it's conjunct that Mars of course in the day chart and he's you know a very cliche Leo rising type type do and I think that's uncontroversial statement correct that leo a lot of the qualities of leo are like a very obvious and very prominent in him in different ways so they are in the qualities of Moz yeah qualities of leo quality mars yeah then there's also actually I mean there's this other funny thing where it's also the ruler of the ascendant is the Sun which is in Gemini conjunct Uranus and he also has this very like Sun conjunct Uranus and Gemini vibe so it's interesting how all of those kind of mixed together in different different ways we could say volatile and combustible volatile combustible unpredictable also the urate the Uranus component sometimes erratic traditional significations of Mars carry a lot of the more negative side of Uranus to don't they like before there was your honest that more you know that quick or impatient kind of vibe which which is definitely Mars but you know Mars and Uranus the two together there's nothing to calm him down sure so but look at where the Sun is so the Sun is at 20 22 degrees of Gemini and the ascendant is at 29 degrees of Leo so there's a pretty good distance between them I mean how many how many degrees is that total 67 67 degrees so there's about 67 degrees between the Sun and the ascendant and of course by transit you know after he was born the Sun would have kept moving forward one degree each day approximately and my secondary progression the Sun would keep moving forward one degree approximately each year so what ends up happening that's very interesting in retrospect is that if you pull up his secondary progressed chart what ended up happening is that it made it to the degree of his natal ascendant during the election his secondary progressed son made it to 29 degrees of Leo in 2016 during the year of the election so for the people watching the video here's the secondary progress chart so you know he's whatever age he is at this point by August of 2016 the Sun is at 29 59 of Leo this is really striking because this is basically right around the time that summer when he the the Republican National Convention happened and he accepted the nomination so he basically had defeated all of his opponents in the primaries and then claimed or became the Republican candidate officially over the summer right about this point when the secondary progress son fully hid the degree of his ascendant and so this is an interesting you know the other end of the spectrum or the other side of the coin from the Whitney Houston example where we had somebody who you know in your example her son started out in the sixth house and then it progressed and hit that natal descendant when she became a huge sensation you know in her musical career and became so prominent well and she it's funny talking about these two examples in completely different fields both of these people had this prominence of this sense of being unstoppable you know they were winning accolades in their fields are at the top of their game and I think that's really really interesting with the power of the Sun they're right and it also ties into the question I think because it was about fixed stars and his of course is a unique case because he had the fixed star regulus which is one of the royal stars which is you know supposed to confer eminence closely conjunct the degree of the ascendance so of course the year that secondary progress Sun comes up and conjoins the degree of his ascendant natal II and conjoins the degree of that fixed star regulus natal II is the year that suddenly he comes in to the fullest prominence in his life during the course of that presidential campaign and then a few months later actually becomes president so it's also interesting about that though in terms of some of the other interpretive principles we've talked about is of course not long after that and before the election his secondary progress son actually changed signs and moved into Virgo so that was actually kind of interesting curious that he switched from like a thirty-year period of the Sun being in Leo to a new 30-year chapter of his life with the Sun being in Virgo around the time of the election which is kind of interesting and curious in it of itself hugely so and I mean one interpretation of this is that while your progress son is in Leo for instance on and on Regulus you know you're reaching for something or you're you're striving for something that has been a goal for a long time or you know you're aiming for things that you've been aiming for for a while and then the progress son changes sides and it is quite the shift and it's like why did I want that I mean I'm not necessarily speaking to Tromp per se but I'm imagining how other clients might relate to this was I'm not quite sure I was so interested in those goals because from where I sit now with the progress Sun in Virgo I've got a whole different set of priorities that have nothing to do with what I just spent the last couple of years doing sure definitely and that's a real that's a unique glitch of when Regulus was at the end of Leo yeah and now it's actually progressed into Virgo in the tropical zodiac Regulus has moved into Virgo over the past few years which is kind of interesting because then again it sort of comes around to this where it's interesting that the secondary progress son by the time of November you know was firmly in Virgo at that point in his secondary progress chart the other interesting thing of course is by November December so basically just after he won the election secondary progressed moon hit about 23 memories of cancer and it squared that secondary progressed Jupiter yes and I think he natalie has Venus and Sutton at sentence at Natalie at 23 cancer and so that that that's not usually a happy six weeks when your progress moon passes over your natal Saturn it's quite a sobering time which would make sense yeah I mean it was sort of unexpected for a lot of people but especially him coming out that night to accept it I mean he look on his face seemed surprised or he seemed sort of a little exhausted I'm sure from the campaign and yeah anyway so I just wanted to mention that example because it's such an interesting contrast compared to you know the Whitney Houston sharp but it really drives home that point of the importance of paying attention to when secondary progressed planets especially the Sun or the luminaries hit in angle like the ascendant Midheaven descendant or I see yes yes the Sun and Moon and the other planet I were throwing there would be the ruling planet of the ascendant that tends to really amplify there's just a lot of like a lot of oomph or vitality or Qi that the angles can confer and when the planet progresses over it they seem to be and you know the Whitney example and the Donald Trump for example are great examples of how prominent the life can become or the person's life story then the way their narrative changes with that activation yeah and that then ties back to our previous discussion in our Q&A episode we were talking about the degree of the angles and the the power that they have and especially how some are more powerful than others in terms of the ascendant versus the Midheaven versus the descendant versus the nadir the icy yes yes all right cool well I think that's bringing us are there any other questions that you wanted to take from our Q&A I feel like we covered we that was a question about the progress lunar phase and we've definitely talked about that yeah covered everything yeah yeah it is a big topic so I would say that to our listeners that this is an introduction if it's new for you or it's maybe giving you a few more points if you're already working with it you know but it's there's there's a lot that you can do it like any predictive technique and one of the bits of advice I tend to give students is don't try and learn ten predictive techniques at once pick one technique and spend a lot of time practicing it or running a lot of charts through it you need that to get a sense of the feel and the flow of the technique then after you know six months or a year working with it you can decide I understand the mechanics and the way this technique works I want to keep it on board and I'm gonna add a next technique in if it doesn't resonate like don't give it a week and then throw it out give it a few months but if it's not a technique that resonates with you you are allowed to say I'm going to look at other things because not every a soldier who does forecasting or timing work uses every single technique yeah there's definitely that's a thing where there's some techniques that speak more to certain people than others either because of how they work or the dynamics of the technique or there's just something about different techniques that different astrologers sort of gravitate towards especially depending on what they're trying to do or what they're trying to accomplish in a consultation or what their consulting style is and different things like that but you know the purpose of this episode was just to give a well-rounded overview in sort of introduction to the technique hmm because I was surprised that I'd never really gone into it that much in the podcast so far and then if people want to learn more then they can go ahead in depth by studying it on their own or by hmm focusing on like workshops because you have a bunch of different workshops or recordings where you go into specific areas that we've talked about here like the lunation cycle or like progressing specific planets like venus and other things like that right yeah absolutely of course I want to you know to trumpet and say by my lectures which were on my website but there are two great books that I used when I was learning about secondary progressions that I would highly recommend for readers if they or listeners if they're interested one of them is called predictive astrology the eagle and the Lark and it's by an Australian astrologer Bernadette Brady it was published a number of years ago but it's fantastic that book also has great Eclipse cycles info you know just as a little sidebar and the other book I would recommend is actually stateman forest book the changing sky which is a great reference for transits but he gives some of the best info I've ever seen out there the most accessible info on progressions that I think can be really helpful for people to understand the technique but also figure out what to say to a client about certain things in that technique so those two books are good and then I do work with progressions where I'm sort of blending some of the traditional ideas with the technique and yeah I think I've got about half a dozen lectures from an intro to progressions all the way up to you know doing fancy and fun things with the progress son through the terms and things like that so there's you know there's a lot of little iterations like that you can do that are really juicy brilliant we yeah people should definitely check out your website Kelly's astrology for more information about that and for some your workshops and stuff like that people can calculate secondary progressions pretty easily in the extended chart selection on Astro comm for the program we were using today both of us use solar fire and I think that's how you and I usually calculate secondary progressions in terms of chart software and people can find out more information about that program at a leave comm and we actually have our promo code where you can get like a 10 or 15% discount if you use the promo code ap 15 when you purchase solar fire through the a Labe website so definitely do that if you want to use that software and then the last thing is just that we both have been using the American ephemeris and that was the other thing that we recommend for studying progressions if you don't want to just use the free pdf ephemeris on Astro comm yeah yeah the other thing I'm asteroid comm in the extended shot selection so I did you mention that you can get your progressed planets in there as well yeah that's a great resource for I think that's what most people use to start out is just the extended chart selection because it has I forget what the option is but it's like secondary progress chart and then you set the date or you pick a date for where you want to progress the chart to and then it will output just a chart for that that year yeah so you can definitely there's lots of ways to get the info without buying soul fire although there's a card Chris isn't there yeah ap 15 as the promo code and then you get like a 15% discount on the program perfect awesome cool all right well thanks a lot for joining me in ticket today Kelly I really appreciate it and I think yeah I think this episode is gonna stick around for a long time so I'm glad we got a chance to do it excellent yeah thanks for having me I really appreciate always coming on your show is fun but talking about one of my favorite topics is even more special so Thanks yeah and I actually look forward to so this is I'm hoping I think we're all still hope this is gonna be your first book is probably gonna be on secondary progressions right yeah it is I mean it's half done so I just have to give myself a bit of a crack over the head and get going with it okay well then one of these days people should check out your book when it's available which I'm sure will be before before too long I think it has to come out this year otherwise I have to give up on it basically okay awesome yeah all right well thanks everyone for listening and to the astrology podcast you can find out more information about it at the astrology podcast com so thanks for listening and we'll see you next time

Channel: The Astrology Podcast

Views: 62,480

Keywords: astrology, secondary progressions, progressions, timing, chart, lunation cycle, lunation phases, aspects, stations, Kelly Surtees, secondary progressions astrology, astrology progressions, progressed chart, progressions in astrology, progressed chart in astrology, progression astrology, progression in astrology, secondary progressions with kelly surtees, secondary progressed chart, progressed moon, progressed planets, predictive astrology, natal chart, astrology podcast

Id: 8HOLu9fDTAo

Length: 122min 51sec (7371 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 22 2018