He lost his daughter to the Mother God Cult. Don't let it happen to you.

david please tell us your story tell us about your daughter how did this all start what led to today okay from the start about three years ago my daughter was in a local university uh sophomore and she came home and said hey mom dad i was invited by a friend to a bible study and it was really cool and they answered a lot of the questions i had about the bible they really know their stuff my wife and i were very happy you know the bible can be a difficult book to to interpret and understand about three weeks after she came to us and said hey i'd really like you to come and that went on for for a few weeks and my wife and i uh were enthusiastic we were like sure we'd love for someone to to you know know tell us all the answers um and we went so we went into the the local world mission society church of god church a very humble place in a retail place walked right into a room the door was closed and my daughter and the pastor sat down with my wife and i and we started our first bible study this this would have been the first of four bible studies and each bible study was private and they each were two to three hours long but we didn't we didn't know this at first the pastor was very humble very genuine um and but that changed very very quickly uh he started to say you know we're the we are the fastest growing church in the world um all other churches all other religions are heretics and liars only only we know the true interpretation of the bible uh you know things like that they're kind of raised red flags to us then the bible studies came and they weren't they didn't say anything about onsong nothing about mother god they started out talking about why a father must have a mother to have children so the you know evolution and all this this sort of stuff have to have a mother and a father to have children and we spent hours on that aspect bouncing around bouncing around from from old testament to new testament very very quickly from first to first very very quickly uh we couldn't even keep up we left up that first three hours confused but eager to return we were very open-minded um went home started to do some research uh one of the videos i watched was yours a couple others um were were a little bit frightening but we remained open-minded we went back and slowly more and more of the the true nature of the church came out um santa equals satan was one of my personal favorites a protestant equals prostitute uh the pope and these are direct quotes from the pastor at the church this isn't hiwashi um protestant equals prostitute uh the the pope is the antichrist all other people outside of the church of god are influenced by satan this is when we really started to get a little scared um uh we tried to talk to our daughter about the church but she just kept on saying oh you don't understand you need to come back to the church all your answers will be you know will be all your questions will be answered um and if we tried to show her some information that we found on the church lawsuits in south korea things like that she didn't want to have anything to do with that all lies everything is a lie even stuff that we hadn't shown her yet it's all lies so we started to realize that she had been prepared for this that's when we got scared that's when we reached out to one of the foremost well it was steve hassan one of the foremost cult experts in the nation and he immediately said you need to get your daughter out of that church as quickly as possible and do it any way you can um this group is is one of the most difficult groups to deal with anywhere in the anywhere in the world more so scientology and jehovah's witness and some things like that so that's totally consistent everything you've said so far is totally consistent with other things i've heard like over and over and over again as i've looked into this group the the um extremely loving and gracious at first quickly conspiratorial about every other group it's all satan and and then trying to create a lot of distrust with the whole planet earth everybody is untrustworthy except for our little group private one-on-one studies all everything that you've said is is super consistent with with the stuff i've heard including the idea that this group is particularly harmful as far as getting its hooks into people and then causing them uh greater and greater suffering really than even other you could be part of a weird group sometimes it doesn't and it doesn't affect your life as much as this one does yeah right right and you're exactly right one of their first priorities and this is one of one of the reasons i wanted to do this video is because interpretation of the bible and religion is is really only one almost smaller tool they use in a much larger tool belt to control people's lives and one of the first things they do is create distrust amongst friends and family so they say even in one of uh his unsung honks book books um your your friends and your immediate family are are really the people to be most distrusted because satan knows that you you love them and so he influences them first and it also also with other pastors we had we tried to bring in a local pastor um christian pastor and they said no because he's you know influenced by satan so that's that's uh that's one of the first things they they do and it it worked um our daughter started coming home and saying uh all the advice you've ever given me is wrong i can't trust you you don't know what you're talking about and mike this was a girl that had idyllic upbringing everything she could want um kindness gentleness you know a good marriage a another sibling loving sibling and all of a sudden it was like a switch um you're you're bad people and you're going to hell um and then they they well we we enlisted we try to continue with the story um we enlisted steve hassan's help and i ended up spending spending a bunch of money wonderful guy brought a a good team of people in ex-member a biblical expert and himself and utter failure they were so well prepared they knew what we were going to do they were three steps ahead of us every every sense of sense of the way every step of the way i'm so sorry are you gonna be quiet all right but um if you would backtrack just a bit you were telling me about um the failure of of what was really a well a good attempt at an intervention yeah sure uh so we enlisted steve hassan and his team biblical expert uh steve himself and uh an an ex very well known ex-member um met talked strategies great education uh but like i said they were three steps ahead of us every step of the way so um interventions we we attempted one intervention we're gonna bring our daughter somewhere else and and uh like a vacation and um at first she was like yeah i'd love to do that and then three days before we left she came in and said you know what i've really thought about this hard and i can't come with you what do you think she suspected that there was yes yeah no no absolutely no doubt it happened to be um around close to the holidays and she was like oh you're you're celebrating christmas and that is uh right that's pagan exactly yeah yeah so they so the the church world mission society church of god yeah they say christmas is pagan santa is satan every church is doing it wrong and none of them have salvation because salvation is is their way of observing passover observing communion and we're not really going to make public how we do that you just have to be part of our group right right that's my impression from my reading and research on the topic now when you say there were three steps ahead could you maybe enlighten me like what were some of the things that that that intervention attempted that just failed like any specific angles they tried that didn't work um most of it was communication was appealing to her her sense that we had raised her and loved her for 20 years and and only wanted the best for her and what if you look at the scales what would it hurt to sit down with us for a day or two and discuss this against the 20 years that we loved and and raised and nurtured her and which which to you and me would be like that makes absolute sense sure i'll do that but she she wouldn't um and so that was one of the big failures and the and the second one really was she was home around the holidays and uh we had prepared an intervention and uh the whole thing was planned out and we just said in the morning when she got up hey we'd like to talk to you about the world mission society a little bit just for a couple of hours and we have someone that would like to talk to you as well she walked upstairs and and literally in in 60 seconds came downstairs with her bag so she had had her bag packed and she walked out the door um and and walked down the street and ran away from home so there's more to it than that um but she she went right to the church and that was that was it and she the next time we she went she came back she packed everything and moved out so is that the last time you saw her no um so shortly after that the uh the pastor called and he said hey i've got a teary-eyed uh physically physically abused girl and i gotta understand why i'm laughing that's just just absolutely silly um that is here and uh you know if you want to see her again you've got to come to the church and and see her and that's the last place we wanted to go but out of desperation we went back um and to my it still hadn't sunk in yet we were already way way that's this is what i mean by three steps ahead um we sat there and listened for a while and eventually i said i am sorry i just have to be honest i don't believe in a mother god right now i don't know what i believe but i'm amazed at what is going on here and to my amazement my daughter started attacking us along with the pastor telling us that we were bad parents and that we were taking everything from her and and doing her all this sort of harm and not being respectful of her beliefs um and at that point i just we said listen you know we're paying for your college all we want to do is sit down and talk to you give us a day one day or i can't see continuing to pay for your college and she looked right at the pastor and said i guess i'll have to get a job and uh a week later she dropped out of college now how long had she been part of the group at that point like was his months years see that's a an important question and one i cannot exactly answer so i think she was involved months before she said anything um and i i think she was already i know now that that once you go in they baptize you and then as soon as they baptize you they take you and they say here's the people you need to watch out for mike winger and and you know the examining world mission society church of god they are truly influenced by satan and so they're they're preparing their members very well yeah the the amount of control that that exists in that regard is pretty extreme and it's definitely beyond something that we see in a biblical sense i could say as someone who who's pretty serious about wanting to obey what scripture says like i would see that as if any church did that any church i would see this is an absolute abuse of power and a misrepresentation of biblical christianity of christ himself um there just isn't that kind of authority in a church but the um the thing is with with her i'm kind of wondering because you said you found my videos did you because i mean just be honest with me hey did you try something you're like hey i saw this in mike's video maybe this would help her to see and it just failed it's okay if that's the case no ego here we really just want to know what works and doesn't work yeah let me refresh it that'll probably do it there we go good better all right um so yeah i'm just curious did you try stuff that you'd seen from maybe one of my videos or from somebody else's content in the research you did and it was like it just fell flat if if so we'd like to know sure sure yes and oh yes i have i i literally kind of ended my career and just jumped in this black hole of of studying religion and psychology and and uh house cults and things like that and um that's where again it was an utter failure because uh and this is what i wanted to communicate there's so much so much else but besides misinterpretation of the bible going on here there's the whole spectrum of cognitive dissonance and undue influence and thought reform and things like that to the point where um [Music] the the conversations our conversations usually ended in in pretty heated argument um because i was frustrated because um i could i could say hey to my daughter hey come out and look at the the blue sky and and she could say i'm sorry dad it's it's not blue it's green and i could take her outside and have her look up and she would just say i don't care if i see and you may be right but it doesn't matter i'm i'm happy so again it's facts didn't matter and that was incredibly frustrating she had given up all her hobbies all her friends her schooling she spent um she'd leave at four o'clock in the morning come home at 11 o'clock at night at first it was saturday of course because it was sabbath and sunday meant you were a sinner but then it was saturday sunday tuesday thursday and and then moving in with the church so it just and i would tell her this what all was going to happen and watch it happen and she would deny it so um so so maybe i could put it this way is um at least in her case and in probably a lot of people's cases it's not that they're convinced like i it's not like it starts out with i believe that whatever the bible says is true and they've convinced me the bible teaches mother god and so then if you could convince me the bible doesn't teach that then i'll leave you're saying there's no no there's these other elements that are committing her to this cause into this thing so that just showing you know the problems and flaws and this and that it somehow is not addressing the the wholehearted commitment that's not rising from a biblical faith or something like that it's rising from somewhere else these other elements right right and i and i think that that you could say that if you misinterpret the bible they they do arise from the bible but it is uh for instance um fear of of being condemned to burn in hell forever they use that very quickly and if you don't believe or even if you have doubt um you're you may be condemned to hell for forever and i i um and then it's it's shutting down the concept of of cognitive dissonance where when people have conflicting thoughts and ideas it it makes them think it stops them and they they think about it and they kind of push it to the side because they want to believe what they want to believe and i've actually talked to people uh members with a pastor when i've seen the pastor make a point that was almost irrefutable and the world mission society member said you may be right but i don't care that right there is is the ultimate his cognitive dissonance is gone he doesn't question anything um just believes everything and does everything that he's told so that's that is very that's very powerful yeah yeah i care my own journey and my own uh season of doubt in christianity was was based on that reality it's like i care a lot about whether this is true and if i'm not convinced that it's true then then that's going to be a problem for me it's not something i don't care about but um but yeah then what do you do i have encountered people like that who are in that place where they it's like the facts don't matter and i i like you i kind of throw my hands up and i go i'm not really sure how to help at that point right yeah and that's that's what we were left with we were left with uh uh a a daughter who had put us as a family way down the list of of respectability and someone that wouldn't listen to anything that we said after 20 beautiful years and we just couldn't understand why until we we started to understand more about undue influence and and uh and elements like that um and that's where the only thing i can say now is we try to just just love her we i can't talk about the bible i can't talk about her life um i can't talk about inviting her anywhere for vacation nothing like that all i can do is try to try to love her and hope that she finds her way out um do you still have contact with her yes yes um some uh we went from from seeing her four days a week to maybe once uh every few months she'll come over for for dinner or something like that we know that it's it's it's amazing we know that it's scripted many times so so i'm on it this world mission site and we'll get notes that hey you know all the all the children are coming over over for dinner during the during this week and it's like you know they're saying okay go visit your parents so we don't get a bad you know a bad review on the web there's so much to talk about right there let's talk about a little bit of it sure um first if you would please help help the viewers to understand that you're not the only parent uh who's this has happened to this is this is like a a very reoccurring thing that's been happening with families because you could you enlighten us about that please sure sure so one of the one of the best things that happened is um i did get involved with the examining the uh wsmg website um and there's there's hundreds of people on that website ex-members and family members and i now am in contact with probably a hundred different probably 50 different family members and 50 different ex-members and the family members are are fantastic for my wife and i and my other daughter um because my story is is easy compared to some um you've got you've got parents who have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars being sued and um uh being taken to court and and just going back and forth losing their their kids having their kids give all their money to the church and and coming out broke and unable to to fight back um so the church has this is this is something i didn't know so the church has actually encouraged kids to sue their parents so they could give the money to to the church well i i can't i can't that's a little bit speculative okay um there have been many lawsuits where um the church has sued the ex-member and then actually lost and the ex-member is now suing the church a couple cases where i know the ex-member and the family has spent hundred thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars literally hundreds of thousands up to um uh the millions of dollars fighting the the church for for various for various things um i got off easy when they just filed a complaint and have my first video on them taken down you're right you're absolutely right and that's one of the things i always advise you should always say this is just my opinion um because they will they are very litigious and that's it it's my opinion that they they use uh they use the law to immorally oppress people and try to steal money from them using the legal the legal system that's my opinion right and uh and i've had a number of people who came out of the woodwork to like warn me when i first started doing content on them and they're like watch out mike they'll come after you and i did try to be careful with how i presented the content so i thought let me let me not give them an excuse you know yeah yeah right and you get busted for picture copyright or something right i don't know that's done yeah and and so at any rate there there is a there's a wonderful support group um of of people that are that are that are there for ex-members or people who have questions um and the the i just stream of consciousness i asked a couple of the ex-members what's the worst thing about the world mission society and i thought it was going to be well you know i gave him all my money blah blah blah they always say the same thing david i've wasted 5 10 15 years of my life so there are people today that got in when they were uh 20 and now they're they're 35 40 and they're just starting a family or they're just [Music] starting college literally things like that and that's that really is the saddest yeah and for those who don't know they're they're a doomsday cult they're they they that's my understanding of them i would consider them that where it's it's like um the end times are for sure coming so quick in fact they've repeatedly it's reported we'll say that it's reported that they've repeatedly predicted to their members the end of the world in a number of years that has not taken place it's caused some members to quit and others to just be ignorant of it because they hide they hide the details later but this this uh for the audience to know this controls people in such a way that they're like yeah what's the point of of me pursuing my life in a sense of being prepared for retirement being ready for like a future career long-term plans it's just evangelized for this organization to get more people into it and that's pretty much the whole goal except the organization is a fraud and so it's the worst kind of spiritual abuse right and here's a personal you remind me of personal from personal experience once we really started to question their doctrine [Music] they kept on saying you really need to hurry up and get baptized because time is running out we are in the end times and i would ask the question like well well um what so why can't i just think about this why do i have to get baptized why what what about the guy on the other side of the world who was a who's a good person but has never heard of of mother god and the answer was that that person doesn't count because you have heard of mother god now you know the truth now if you don't get baptized you are spiritually dead and are going to hell so what's so what's trippy to me is how many of those elements and i'm sure you're aware of this is how many of those elements do have a similarity to christian teachings yes and but to me i look at it and i go it's not the similarities it's the differences that are appalling and so when you when you get into the details of it and you go okay this is what i would consider like anti-christian in the sense of okay like back to like the greek of it of it all anti-christ in scripture is is something that's like trying to imitate christ it's not just like the opposite of it's like an imitation of and so i would consider this an imitation of christianity an appalling imitation of christianity if there's something that can be distorted taken out of context or or turned it into a weapon that's what they're going to do with it and the end result is going to be um that it gives it gives especially people like you who've gone through the ringer it gives all of christianity a bad name in my opinion um it does and you're right and uh that's that they prey on people like me or my wife or we're not biblical experts we're just try to be good people and to to your point i don't like to use the word cult anymore i use high demand religion versus mainstream religion for one specific reason i called the church a cult when i spoke to my daughter and she looked she turned around she said dad if if my church is occult aren't all religions cults and i said absolutely not and she pulled out a dictionary and and showed me the definition of cult she she got me yeah if you if you see the oxford you know definition you can go oh boy christianity's at fault and that that uh just another head yeah this is this is actually a common thing and maybe it's a good maybe i should stop using the term cull because it confuses people um so in if you know there's there's uh dictionaries like oxford dictionary there's also theological terms that have special meaning in theology and so when i talk about um the word ecumenical it has a special meaning within christian theology but it has a different meaning probably in secular terminology the word cult does as well cult in secular terminology refers to basically a religious system that has like rituals of any kind and so it's a very it's not even derogatory in in christian theology it's often used to refer to something imitating christianity that is not true christianity and um and usually those are high demand as you say but yeah i get it it really is just different usages of the word but i get how that would have been like a haha it got you that kind of moment yeah we got you a moment and uh but uh yeah and that the high demand is is where the danger really comes in i mean if i miss uh coming to church on on sunday i don't get a call from mike winger saying where the heck were you if i don't if i come in and i give ten dollars at your church um i don't get a call from you saying you make more money than that yeah yeah give me more give me more and um that's really really what they they do very i can tell you as a as a pastor at my church i've been there for many many years i literally don't even know who gives i wouldn't even be able to look out of the congregation and even have a clue who gives yeah and that's the way we like it right right well and this is the thing with with world mission we've seen the ex-members have had their old sheets where it gives names and how much they gave how much they didn't give how not only how much they give how much they pay for food or they pay for the electric bill at the church um and i know in the bible it says give us 10 but i think you've talked to one of the ex-members kelsey she mathematically figured it out she was giving forty to fifty percent of her gross income to the judge i would argue that ten percent's not even a biblical requirement for christians it's it's a reference to old testament but that's another issue altogether but even still 40 to 50 percent of your of your what what seems clear to me is that that's what they're really ultimately after yes money and money and power sure and that's that's clearly what what we've seen i have seen firsthand the arranged marriages um and just another to to korean people who don't even speak english first hand which is just another element of control and they want two things they want your money and your time and they're using that time to go out and just dial for dial for converts to to to convert as many people as they quickly and it's systematic so i'll just throw this out there you're saying you're an eyewitness to arranged marriages where somebody who's uh not from the us they're from korea they're brought over they're part of the the group you know in korea the church of god in korea they're brought over and then through the instruction of the leaders it's suggested at least that you marry this person and they marry them and they don't even share a language right yep yes and that i'll have to say in my in my opinion but i watched this happen um in in the church on a couple of different occasions so yeah yeah and it's been widely reported from other people as well this is this would be confirmatory in my opinion um now they deny all these things they say this doesn't happen and it may not happen in a local zion right where they where they call them their local groups as ion it may not happen in their local place that doesn't mean it doesn't happen anywhere um right and it may not have happened in the past couple years doesn't mean it didn't have before that but the um the other thing that well there's something else you mentioned i wanted to touch on um um oh it was just the repeatability of this stuff this this church this group more than any group i've ever seen is learning to have a repeatable systematic formula for how they first initially get somebody and then turn them into like a real devoted servant of the group and it starts with um you know you're the first meeting where they're going to try to stumble you up a little bit on you know show you that you don't really know much about the theology or about about what you believe and what's true then they're going to bring you in they want to baptize you right away then they want to alienate you from all other religious influences or authorities in your life like parents by starting to warn you against them like santa satan everybody else's apostate and yet you still don't even know what they really believe like you said um the whole onsong hong thing who they believe is the second coming of christ who's also the father who's also the holy spirit some it's just it's all muddled but they believe that this guy um yeah is is there like their founder and one who brought salvation back to the world right and yet you guys didn't know that this is like the christ of the group how how long was it until you even heard about onsong home we never did and and i i wanted you said that you just said a big mouthful and i want to back up i tend to do that it's okay the first question they ask when you walk in the door is do you believe in the bible and most people say sure um what what i don't think most people realize is is anybody can interpret the bible to mean really any anything they want there are a lot of denominations out there um some some mainstream then some high demand religion but that's the first way they go okay if if they believe this we can start to spin our interpretation of the bible into this this belief system and that's the first thing the second thing they'll say is um let's talk about the the the sabbath so you know you know originally the sabbath was on saturday do you know why it's now on sunday because satan got in there and he he jiggered with it and as you know better than i there's been a lot of argument in the world about that that point so they they latch on to truths anything they can even you know think they can latch on to they latch on to to get you to believe and then they elevate it they'll say then they start to say here's where the catholic church went wrong here's where the judaism went wrong here's where islam went wrong and try to pull you in slowly and then continue to to elevate it to the point where they got you and and you'll believe anything that they say it's a very slow deliberate and and sneaky process and for us um it's changed now for us they did not talk about el santon they did not talk about mother god we found out on the web and came back and said is mother god alive and a korean lady alive and living in korea right now and they were kind of surprised first thing the pastor said was don't ever go on the internet if you had any questions about any thing come to me you're eating from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil the tree if you go to the internet at all right right except you can go on their web pages so um and that's that's another part of isolation they try to isolate you they're having private bible studies they're telling you to only talk to them at the same time when you're around the people in the church man they are saying you're the greatest thing since sliced bread mike went there and they didn't know who you were you'd all of a sudden you'd be a genius and and you know a wonderful perfect human being and uh and handsome in it love bombing is a very very real thing and i will tell you that touched my daughter because she had she was smart had tough time making friends and boy once you when she went into that church she had an instant 50 friends yeah yeah it's tough to see the difference between genuine compassion and welcoming versus like manipulative like what you call love bombing um and i've i've seen i've seen different people do that i'm not a big fan of it i love the idea of just honest friendliness and compassion and love towards other people but if if it's like i only do this the first time i meet you well that's fake that's that's a lie that's manipulation the sabbath thing's funny because biblically speaking okay i'll give you my perspective on this biblically speaking the sabbath is saturday it's always been saturday that's the sabbath um christians just aren't required to do the sabbath at all now over time over time they started to to start like hundreds and hundreds of years later they start thinking well sunday's like our holy day so we'll rest on sunday too and we'll call that our sabbath right and then there's people going wait but sabbath is saturday so then people start arguing no it moved to sunday and this whole i'm just throwing my hands up going guys it didn't move at all like you just have a convention that you rest on sunday that's fine go for it um but romans is clear we're not romans 14 like you don't have to have the sabbath this was there for a purpose christ is the fulfillment of all that but um right anyway that's that and i could i would get in theological discussions with people over those issues but but even the people i know who think the sabbath is like required or you should rest on saturday would never say like the ones i know personally they would never say that um therefore we're the only real safe church and everyone else's apostate and you know it's like that kind of everything's dialed up to 10. right any disagreement on any level with us proves satanic sources of all those other people and so the level of paranoia is is what creates the feeling of safety in the group right the the heightened degree of paranoia about all others makes it makes it so this is the only safe place to be and the only people to listen to yeah that's well said well said they they go straight from sabbath or or sunday to you are it's it's proof that you are influenced by by satan and and straight and you can't be trusted and that's just another very powerful but very powerful way they they they control people i mean i i see it my wife and i see it every time our daughter comes over you can see that fear and that distrust and the cognitive dissonance she knows that we're her parents she knows that we love her to death but when she walks in that door it's almost like she's looking around for satanic influences or you know there's just a almost a tangible um [Music] thing in the air that that makes her scared and that's that's the danger that really is the underlying danger of of this this organization this is not my point has always been this is not a normal religion and um when i've seen interviews with world mission members where they're they're almost being given a soapbox so you would get one on and you would talk to them about their beliefs and how they're wrong and on the surface that's fine but what you're actually doing is you're giving a dangerous uh group a platform to touch other people and so it's very there's a very a lot of conflict in my mind about you know how to how to reach them and and part of me wants to push them into the background and never talk to them but then part of me wants to see people like you you know try to help them out of it too so it's just but it's a good word is like just because you know the the usability ease of the internet is that anybody can do anything and so yeah you might be able to get someone on but my thought is like don't bring them on unless you can publicly defeat their bad stuff like right because if you can if it does if it doesn't if you don't if you're not prepared for that because debate is not an easy thing and there's all kinds of things other than facts that influence debates and if you're not able to you know debunk the perspectives that they're preaching then you don't want to be promoting it by having them on it's it's not safe it's not safe it's going to be a win or a lose one or the other yeah right and that's that's sad because with the i think with a guy like me and a guy like you who you the reason you have a strong faith is is you've had a lot of doubts you continue to have doubts but you think through those doubts if you debate a world mission society member they don't have any doubts they are scripted their leaders have told them to get on to do this this debate and they're not going to give one it's like i said before facts don't matter they're not going to give one one inch even if you make the best point you can um and their their goal is to just say you know hey sorry we know the truth or whether you think it or not come come join us and truly be saved so yeah yeah and i can feel your frustration it's like you're saying there isn't a silver bullet here and so would you like going back and looking back with a perspective you have now like you didn't know what you were getting into initially and then you just had to find out by living it um would you go back would you do anything differently yes yeah so tell us about that like um and this is this is this is angsty i totally get that but this is because somebody might be listening right now who's at the beginning of what you went through right and it might help them to know right so um uh this this is simple but profound i would have taken some of the cult experts advice and [Music] immediately once i realized what was going on i would have done whatever i could have done to get my daughter away from that church and i don't care whether i had to lie cheat steal number one get her get your loved one away from that church and to some sort of counselor whether it's a local pastor or a psychologist or something like that because the longer you wait and this was drilled in my head the longer you wait the longer they get indoctrinated the the less likely you are to to succeed um and i'll give you uh i'll give you an example of a success story but it's a little bit frightening um a guy i know got his got his daughter out didn't quite kidnap her but but got her in the car and drove her to new jersey from california and um got her to talk to some people got her out of the church got away two months later she came to her father and she said dad i want you to know something when when i told you i was out of this church i was not i believed everything that they told me my decision was that i would rather live in hell with you and the rest of my family than be in heaven without you that that is is was very very heavy to me and i've i've talked to a lot of people that have said when i left the church i still believed the doctrine i was just worn out they worked me too hard or they you know made me really angry or something like that it them months and years to understand that the doctrine was bad too yeah i've seen comments from people who are like um and gotten messages from i'm not part of the group right now because i just i haven't been attending i'm not being faithful like i'm a bad person it's how they feel right right they still believe it and they're still defending it and it and it's just the most it's almost like it helps them that it's so irrational right and they just embrace it and um real life is often very messy this is incredibly real and incredibly messy and so your thought then for parents is take extreme actions take it as seriously as you possibly can right now for loved ones you have someone you know that's in this do whatever you can now that could potentially just make things way worse right it it could but um you you've got to remember that if you don't they're still being indoctrinated and number two they've been told what's going to happen your parents are going to do this they're going to try to you know drive steal you away or kidnap your whatever and i'm not saying breaking the break the law but yeah every time that that they go to church and say wow you were right my parents want to take me on a vacation or or get me away that proves to them that their doctrine is is true so prophecies being there being fulfilled yeah and perhaps giving the giving the warning we're going to do this we're going to do that is under undermines those very plans because they've been they're being warned on the other end watch out for this yes yes and that's that's keeping them just pulling them deeper in and the second thing i i i would highly advise it's very difficult is not to get angry so when you when you see your your loved one being so nonsensical or irrational and they're they're they're intelligent kids you're kind of like you smack your head and you go what are you talking about how can you believe this and it's almost like i got have got had some heated angry discussions with my daughter and then my wife takes over and she gets so frustrated the same thing happens um it just it doesn't do any good you you really the biggest piece of advice i can give is just love them keep that contact because if if they know you're pushing back they know you're argumentative the church will tell them you know what why don't you just stop seeing your family so much take a few months off don't go on any vacations um and that no contact is just that you have no way to be a part of their life anymore and that sucks them into the church even more so yeah wow so yeah good good that's good counsel good advice stay calm i'm sure that was hard earned knowledge yeah yeah sure it was it was and the last piece of advice i can give is is arouse that that cognitive dissonance um and this has been difficult and it's it has arisen in me from from understanding more about uh biblical doctrine and and religion and things like that and this this speaks directly to what you you were talking about you can see links between the world mission society church of god because after all they call themselves christian so you can see those links those little bits of truth that they use to catapult their their uh misinterpretation of the bible and and in in some ways sometimes i'm i'm kind of now on the fence religiously and i'm sure you can understand that this whole thing has been devastating to me but sometimes i can think through um some things to say to my daughter that will stop her and i can see it for literally seconds she might stop for three or four seconds and i know that i've stopped her and i know i've caused her to think um and uh but that's it it's it's tough to do also um but that's today what i'm trying what i try to do is gently plant the seeds of of doubt um in regard to mother god and nonsong hong and that sort of things yeah i think of them as seeds of truth yeah yeah okay that's that's that's better it's crazy because it it to her it's it's christian this is this is christian this is what real authentic christianity is and yet all of the core elements so um a return of christ that was private that nobody knows about where he dies again like this is so against what scripture teaches jesus says like don't even look for me if someone claims that i'm here don't believe him blanket statement because when i come back everyone will know and he says you know the hebrew says he can never die again yet they think aunt hong was jesus who came and died again that he he died twice now um the the whole mother of god thing is completely the closest thing to mother god in the old testament is is not in the new but in the old testament and it's the asherah religion they worshipped these ashrae things and they tried to make her the wife of god the female version of god they even put astral poles historically in the temple at one point and um and this was refuted like like very angrily by the prophets and so all these things that are like central and then they try to like hook you in to these these things that are centrally flawed with these like oh but the sabbath and the pope and conspiracy things sansa say like do they do the thing where they say santa you rearrange the letters and it says satan yes that that's what i meant by santa eagles say yeah oh my goodness like yeah got angry at the pastor and i said i i said you have got to be kidding me this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard in in my life it is you well you know dog in god apparently right yeah and then one other thing with it well i said let me i got to ask you this mother god thing the jerusalem thing i i looked up in my handy-dandy uh online bible there's there's i'm getting these numbers wrong there's 1300 references to to jesus in the bible and there's 4 200 references to god look up mother god in the bible there's zero references so talk to me about that and it's and that's that's when you start to realize that facts don't matter because they'll say oh it's all over in there you're just missing it yeah but at any rate so yeah yeah the the whole santa thing so santa just means saint like yes like santa or holy santa biblio like holy bible santa just means it's like that's all it means it references the historical guy saying that you know nick from the fourth century who legend has it traveled uh a long distance just to confront a heretic so he could punch him in the face not in not likely a true legend [Laughter] the lesser-known the lesser-known legend of saint nick punching a guy in the face um anyways hopefully it's not true but the uh yeah the stuff they do it's just it's it's crazy and i don't really know i know that like a video like this it can be passively viewed and people are just more likely to to watch a video like this who might be part of the group and if you're watching now i'm so grateful that you're watching like i want you to know the truth about christ and um and and and how you're being manipulated in his name but but this this is the kind of thing that i think might help somebody you know and i've had people lots of people tell me that they left the group because of the videos i made and i more than i expected to be honest reach out and say that they left because of those videos and so i'm hoping this continues to add to that the the thing though that i would like to to cover now is is i think the secondary victim of groups like the world mission society church of god is that i think that they [ __ ] people when it comes to believing about anything because there's such a fear about being trapped or being misled or whatever but let me ask you like where do you stand if you're okay talking about this where do you stand in regards to god personally and religion and all that sure uh i am i would say that i am seriously on the offense so i this was uh you know i was raised a christian didn't attend church all the time was what was a believer and then um when it came to the world mission society the really the overwhelming question would how could any god let this happen and i will tell you that that you're right it's a very common thing um my daughter is is went from being a believer to a non-believer one of the the kids we had in our intervention group um was a young man with a on his way to being a pastor went through our intervention and and came out and came to me one day and said you know mr herdman can i be honest with you i this whole thing has affected me so much i'm i'm an atheist now um and i didn't know what to say but i think you can understand why when you see something like this happen a beautiful life ruined uh based on the bible it's probably one of the reasons i wanted to communicate to you and your viewers that that the interpretation of the bible is is just a tool they use they they really want to control your life and and get your money and and make more money and have more power it's really only a tool it adds it adds a clout to them yes they can claim we have this on our side too right right yep yep so so as far as myself and and my wife and my other daughter it has caused us to really step back and start to examine you know i've read every book from william craig to c.s lewis to st thomas aquinas and then on the other side some of you know your favorites the the sam harris's of the world things like that and and really trying to to slowly figure out what what i'm comfortable with what i believe but it's it's been it's been faithfully it's been devastating yeah um so i just you know i i unders i get it i get that i understand that and i think it's a natural impact and i think it's you know from my worldview perspective it would be like and this is why uh satan would try to create false religions is because the the fallout especially ridiculous ones that get you locked in and then you come out and they look you see it for what it really is is that it's it's a it's an atheist making machine or at least at least getting people to say okay maybe i'll i'll believe there's a god but i'm never going to commit to anything because look at the potential of committing right right like that that's scary to me now and it kind of like somebody who's been wounded in relationships and so they'll they maybe they'll have some flings or some gentle like light relationships with people but they'll never get married because of the it's just too scary and it's like your bad relationship has like robbed you of a good marriage my my is like this this this uh cult group this this oppressive and false religion robbing you of of a potential you know potentially having the truth and that's now that isn't going to fix the problem for you i think it just shows you a way of looking at it maybe but let me ask you this so david why aren't you an atheist why isn't that your your perspective on things um i i would say that that i i might actually be leaning a little bit that way more of a a lack of belief than an absolute atheist if that makes sense i i really haven't delved into the exact definitions um but i you know i i want to believe in a in a in a good power guiding the world and your your point is very well taken if anything i've gone from being religious to i guess you would call it a deist kind of a believer in a higher power not so much organized religion but what what happened to me in my search may help i when i first found out about all this i decided well i'll just figure out what religion i am and i'll talk talk her out of this and so i went and i was very open-minded i was like you know what maybe i'm not christian maybe i'm jewish maybe i'm muslim maybe i'm a buddhist let's let's go let's go figure it out and um what i found was i had to go back all the way to the first forms of religion and try to think about it that way and in the long way to be honest with you i i read a book by bart airman and that that smacked me upside the head and i that's really where i started to question and i thought wow i really need to so then i would go out and read defending your faith by william lane craig and then i would go back and read sam harris and that's kind of where i'm trying to look at the whole spectrum of options in unbiased logical unemotional way certainly so yeah um yeah although we none of us can really be any of those things truly right right but but we try and it's important to try to be thoughtful and reasonable and all that but um but but these these issues are too big for us to have no no emotional feelings about them at least in my in my experience right you're right you're right and that that may be why the answer to why i'm not a a total atheist i want to like i said i i want to believe that we're here for a reason um uh you know i want to see i want to see my my parents again or my grandparents or a host of different reasons i want to believe in in a good power for the for the world so and that's that that is what i think that's why i i differentiate between high demand religion and more mainstream religions why i say i don't think you're uh a judgmental man you're just you're just trying to help people find the truth and do good for the world and i i think that's wonderful yeah so at least and i wouldn't i'm not i wouldn't be offended by that but i the way i see you would look at me and you think well he's bringing a net positive benefit so so that'll that'll be acceptable we'll allow that plus plus if if at least people listen to me they wouldn't be part of that stuff right there high demand you know hopefully if you listen to what i'm teaching you're gonna have a better relationship with your parents and not a worse one okay that's that's well said you're right you're right that's a good point yeah i i but i'll tell you though for me personally it's it's not at all good enough like it's got to be true it's got to be true or i can't i cannot do what i do unless i really think it's true um that had to be done way before i would ever talk to anybody else about it it had to be that i went through the same process as you reading wondering like how do i i've heard stuff from bart airman i've got bart airman's books you know which which book was it you read do you remember i think the first one was misquoting jesus yes oh my goodness so my opinion is that his books are incredibly misleading and um and that and that he's very misleading now it doesn't mean he's just lying it's it's not that it's not what i'm saying uh that would be a different thing it's it's that you walk away believing things that he doesn't even believe because of the way he couches his terms so in the appendix of misquoting jesus when it was first printed there were these follow-up questions and if you have an early printing you should have this in there and the follow-up questions were like um so how different would the bible be you know than than the one we have now originally and he says oh it's pretty much the same and that was like such a shock to the readers that they that the publisher said let's take that out in the next edition because it's it's like sort of combating against the expectation you created with the rest of the book that um that that largely we haven't had changes so weird stuff i don't know how into it you got but weird stuff like he has a view about how christology changed over this over the over the first 200 years of the church but his view is based on um a variant reading in luke that like almost nobody agrees with him on and so like his whole view falls apart if he's wrong about this one thing that he's like one of the only people that says that and but but the reader doesn't know this they don't know that this little piece in his puzzle the whole puzzle falls apart without it and it's he's completely alone just about in his views there but um gotcha anyway i i i wouldn't expect to change your mind uh over our discussion here but if you're interested in something that if you're even interested in pursuing this stuff more dan wallace did a public debates with bart airman and dan wallace is a brilliant new testament scholar he is um i mean brilliant and highly respected in the secular world he like if you learn greek you're reading his greek grammar right like he's the guy that wrote it really brilliant really highly respected and him and bart airman did a series of debates and you can find them online for free and it would it that totally changed my understanding of things after seeing bart airman when he talks alone versus when he has to face a real trained and thoughtful scholar um i know william lane craig treated his stuff but he didn't give it the treatment that it needs because it's not his field right so william lane craig talks a little bit about things like variants and stuff like that dan wallace is the guy he's like the guy this guy did his dissertation on the use of the word the in greek right he's just a total nerd you know in a good way i'll be watching his videos tonight then and i i know i can see by talking to you the one thing that takes in my mind is someone said a a faith unchallenged is no faith at all and i'm okay with that i want to you know i want to you know challenge myself and and see what so i agree with you and and i'll be as blunt as i can there's still things i don't understand and i don't know the answers to um i'm honestly honestly intellectually convinced that christianity is true uh truly i am and that's that's why i i produce the content like to again i said this probably that had to happen before i could say anything to others out loud it the stakes are too high i take this role too too seriously to jerk people around but um but let me let me hit this hit you up with this like think about think let's let's just survey what topics would are of central value um so the the eyewitness testimony in the gospels is very important but christianity can be true even if you didn't have that technically at least at least in my perspective um what's really important is like the resurrection of christ right and you've uh what have you read on that already do you know um so i i will say uh the the thrust of of my research and reading has to do with just being honest more fundamental um foundational you know is there is there a god or god's uh a real belief in the natural because for me if i don't believe in the supernatural um [Music] it's like building a house doesn't matter what i believe about christianity because my right the foundation of my house is mud that sort of thing so i really feel like i have to be convinced that there is a god that that supernatural exists so i can believe the stuff that happened in the bible that sort of thing and that's that's kind of where uh where i i ended up so number one issue does god exist if he does exist then when you evaluate say evidence for the resurrection of jesus there's like an inherent probability like god could do that okay so at least i'm looking at something that could potentially happen yes whereas if you don't believe god exists then and so this is that's airman's thing he says that um the reason why the evidence for the resurrection of jesus doesn't matter is because and he would say as a historian you're not allowed to conclude supernatural things and so no matter what the evidence is you can't say it happened and now i i look at it and i go that's a blind faith position because who cares what the evidence is i'm gonna deny it and that's a problem when asked for an alternate explanation of the evidence airmen won't give one he's like i won't give one whatever whatever alternate explanation you give to put to explain the evidence other than the resurrection they'll just tear it down i'm not going to give one i'm just going to say you can't you can't conclude the resurrection as a historian because we have a no supernatural rule and um to me that's like his that's it's like his belly showing his his uh his weak underside showing as much as the guy's really brilliant man and he's incredibly an incredibly good debater and very persuasive but um so god's existence but you've read william lane craig on this was there any particular argument that you thought was most compelling or stuff that you thought now that's junk and you chucked it well um you know william talks talks a lot about the what is it the five proofs kind of saint thomas aquinas by proofs and things like that and when i've gone through the whether it's the ontological argument or the other arguments um uh like i said i try to hear the argument and then hear a listen to the argument debunked kind of uh kind of video or something like that um and that's where i am on the defense for instance uh let me see if if cause cause and if everything has a cause or a beginning the universe has a beginning and so on and so forth but god does not then if god does not then why do i need to say that the universe has a cause or a beginning is that does that make oh i totally get you yeah yeah so yeah you're and this is this is a pretty common um observation is like hey yeah why why is it special pleading the universe has to have a beginning but god doesn't like why and um um maybe an easier i'm trying to think of it if you pr it sounds like from what you described it sounds like you read his book reasonable faith yes and in that book he goes through like specifically he's like here's he go it's so thick like i read that book and i have to read one paragraph like eight times right it's a really challenging reading yeah um another one that's probably a lot easier to grasp is called reasonable i'm sorry it's called uh on guard ah okay and usually i recommend that one because i uh think that it's tremendously difficult to read reasonable faith and it's not because you're because we're dummies it's because he's heading directly into complicated debates in areas of study that are still relatively new to the person who's reading so it's like objections this is advanced and i'm not advanced in that area so um but here's the basic thought is with the universe what we what we would need to clear up your your question hypothetically is we need to give reason to think the universe does have a beginning and we need reason to think that god does not have a beginning and if we could show that the difference is a beginning point then then the then saying uh the universe needs a cause for its beginning but god didn't have a beginning so he doesn't need a cause for something that didn't happen nothing has to cause a beginning that he would be causing his own existence internally which would fit something they call perfect being theology or the idea that if god really is the highest greatest being him being self-caused or self-sustaining right but without a beginning he's just exists he's just his existence in a sense then that would make sense um so the the thing that helps us with this is all of the whole um einstein's relative theory and those types of things that basically suggest the universe has a finite past and this is not a controversial perspective anymore it used to be uh when einstein first you know came up with this theory of relativity he fudged the numbers because it was implying the universe had a beginning and it was hubble with his telescope it's an interesting story about it hubble observes what they call the red shift there's like this radi there's this slight radiation background radiation in the universe of a little bit of heat it's it's not zero it's a little above zero actual zero right right right and they're like huh and as they start looking around and examining things einstein checks it out and there's a story of how einstein went to hubble looked in his telescope saw what hubble saw and then he came out and he said that he should have fudged his numbers that was the biggest mistake he ever made um he didn't do it like in an immoral way he did it the way that people do when they go what if i tweak the calculation this way and then it'll work you know right he you know he didn't do it anything wrong he just was morally wrong it was just wrong and so he comes out and he's like yeah now the term big bang came out of this they go okay so the universe had a beginning it looks like it just exploded into existence we're looking at the leftovers of a massive explosion and so mockingly they called it a big bang because it was so disliked amongst the physicists at the time and slowly it became the dominant theory but big bang was the mocking term oh it was a big bang and um the reason well one of the reasons they pushed back on this is because anti-supernaturalism is kind of embedded in the sciences at the moment it has been for a long time and they're like look if the universe has a beginning then you're going to have to explain what began it right and it can't begin itself because it's not here to do that so that sounds an awful lot like you're using science to argue for god you know and uh which is of course what people ended up doing with it and so yes so yeah so the universe it seems it does have a real beginning um there's an there's a i'm sorry just two seconds yeah there's a um there's good reason in other words to conclude that the universe does have a beginning then at least at least conceptually if you look at god you can say well god by description at least our understanding of what god would be would not have any beginning point um he didn't exist for millions of years like he would he had to create time because with with uh with space not existing time would also not be happening right um space and time are connected um and so you would you sort of need if something caused the universe which includes space-time matter energy you you need something that doesn't depend on any of those things to create it the cause of the universe can't be space time matter energy it would have to be spaceless timeless immaterial and not dependent on any external source of energy it would just have to be some kind of crazy power right and so those those descriptions do fit god right he's he's he's transcendent that's spaceless right he's he's timeless he's eternal he's ult he's very powerful um and he doesn't depend on anything else for his existence like that does fit god at least like god should be on the table as a possible explanation for the universe um yeah i don't know of a good pushback against that personally um and i think it's pretty it's pretty simple stuff you mentioned uh some of william lane craig's books being difficult to read and i might not have gotten through that depending on your faith but one of them i read was i think it was uh something from nothing that leonard grouse lawrence krauss or lawrence krauss so and i i i'm at the point where i'm not working as i had a barn burner or a career so i have some time and i have picked up some of these books but i have to read every paragraph five times yeah and it and it's so it's just a challenge to get through you know not just you know figure out what i believe in all of it so right now lawrence krauss is interesting he he recently came under fire he was getting accused of um sexual inappropriate behavior with with some of his fans but but that's beside the point the the thing with lawrence krauss is he he defines because he wants to say the universe comes from nothing but but he redefines the term nothing to mean a quantum space right that has that's full of energy and potential energy and all kinds of activities that are going on in this quantum space and then so his the real debate with krause isn't anything in his book it's really can you call that nothing yeah can you just grant the existence of of a quantum vacuum that has space that's experiencing changes over time that has full of energy and roiling with all this stuff and in his view has the potential to sort of create the universe which that is another stretch but um but so i watched a a thing that had lawrence krauss and it was you know it had um a philosopher and it had um uh neil degrasse tyson yes and the three of the three of them there was a couple of guys on stage they were all talking about what the definition of nothing is it was a two-hour discussion on how to define nothing and you could see kraus and tyson really want to say that nothing is something because it's let's just be honest to evangelize their viewpoint they're both atheists and to evangelize from their viewpoint you need to say the universe came out of nothing because it's one of the most powerful reasons to believe in god right and so they want to say yeah it came out of nothing we're just redefining nothing and the philosopher was great because a philosopher i don't know what his beliefs are already sitting there and you can tell he's visibly irritated the whole time and finally at the end he chimes in and he goes this is the most ridiculous conversation i've ever been part of nothing means not anything right you can't define nothing as a quantum space with activities going on nothing doesn't involve activity nothing doesn't involve anything and he's just like really all frustrated so it's so funny because you could you could grant everything else kraus is saying and then you just you just have to acknowledge but that's still not nothing like cross even if the whole universe came from a small quantum vacuum that had activity in it how do you explain the quantum space and the activity in it because it's not self-causing and and then everything ends like the discussion ends because there isn't even a i don't think there's even a potential creator other than god um that's been put on the table that's realistic yeah instead they just have an arbitrary stopping point right like back when string three was popular it's not anymore but when it was popular they're like well the strings vibrate and give birth to all things and then someone's like well where do the strings come from and they're like yeah it's not important don't worry about it you need this uncaused thing you need this thing that that is self-sustaining that is eternal that is not dependent on creation that causes all of creation it would have to be amazingly powerful like this really sounds like god um there's there's other arguments for god so that's the cosmological argument right whatever begins to exist has a cause that's the first idea the second one is the universe began to exist and you can use science to support that and uh and that's pretty much all agreed upon and then the best explanation for you know the universe is god because he's he has the attributes we'd look for you know spaceless timeless immaterial all-powerful and um another one is the argument from contingency which is a different argument altogether although it'll sound similar and there's a guy who's put that forward in detail brilliant philosopher william lane craig says that he's smarter than william lane craig and his name is josh rasmussen and he wrote a book that's meant to be approachable it's a little difficult i know i've got it here somewhere it's called how reason can lead to god and um i wonder where i have it got it it's all right i got it yeah anyway josh rasmussen he's a he's a professor over azusa um really nice guy really brilliant guy and he walks through what's called a contingency argument and a lot of people actually think that argument is even stronger than the column and it's basically saying you know think of everything that exists take take imagine everything that is this we'll call that we'll take call it a ball we'll call it like a ball of reality like all that's in reality okay um now a lot of the stuff that's in this ball of reality it it seems like it depends on something else like it's it doesn't just exist a force of its own nature it just is caused to exist so then you start walking back to ask okay there's some things that are contingent upon others like you are contingent upon your parents your parents are contingent upon them um you know there's various contingency dependence that's going on and he traces this back and suggests that this is a strong argument for the existence of god and um anyway that would be an interesting read from a philosophical perspective um one of my favorite things to argue from is prophecy a whole different issue i think that the because to me this proves it goes in one swoop it proves the bible and god um and if it's prophecy about jesus then if it's successful if the argument's successful it proves the bible god and jesus all in one swoop you know um right and i i actually have your one of your prophecy videos on on watch later i think i saw it today and that's because that's another thing i i it's a challenge for me is the prophecies and and how to understand them i don't know if they actually occurred that sort of thing but yeah i'm like yeah yeah when it comes to trying to use prophecy at least my philosophy is um i love talking about prophecy i'll talk about various prophecies but when it comes to prophecy as evidence i don't i don't use most prophecies in the bible because if it was prophesied and then it happened 20 years later that was great evidence if you were alive at the time but from us 2000 years later that's not great evidence like i don't know a 20-year time gap i can't prove a 20-year time difference this far out right so what i would look for in the bible is prophecies that are plus if it's a vague prophecy okay but then i don't i'm not going to use it it's too vague so i need prophecies that have specificity prophecies that have a long time between when they were predicted to when they were fulfilled prophecies that couldn't have been just deliberately fulfilled by people who believed the prophecy and and then prophecies that have verification of their fulfillment outside of outside of the bible at least outside of we'll just put this they have good verification that they really did happen that way and so then i narrow it down to just a handful of prophecies that i use to try to demonstrate christianity is true yeah they have a prophecy you know church of god they have a prophecy that messiah has to reign for um is it 40 years and um jesus only reigned for three years in his time on earth although jesus biblically jesus was never reigning during that time so there's no rule going on right this right but um but that's why onsong hong comes and his he's from the time of his baptism until his death is 37 years so he fills up the other and so as the prophecy of 37 years i had a church of god member reach out to me and she's like just leaving the group and she goes there's one thing i need you to answer for me how do you explain the prophecy of the 37 years and i mean i love prophecy right and i go what are you talking about what prophecy is this and she goes she goes david the 37 years like jesus you know david and jesus had to fulfill it and onsong hong did it and i said can you show me where in the old testament or new it says anything about this and she's like i can't remember but it's really bugging her and she can't even remember where it is and i've never found it right it's there isn't any text there's just in their writings david reigned for 40 years so jesus has to as well and the weirdest thing is onsong hong wasn't even baptized 37 years before he died they just lie about the date he was baptized to try to make this work sure sure because we have the the photographic evidence like somebody went into the the because he was baptized in the sda church somebody went in there and they actually took a photo of the baptism book that shows the date is not it doesn't match yeah oh gosh so if that's the problem if that's my prophetic evidence you should laugh at me i would never do that oh boy the thing i'd encourage you is is just part of the victimization this i've seen over and over again now i've just i've just recently realized there's a pattern to it i'm like i don't know if you saw the robbie zacharias scandal stuff that's gone on but that that stuff is you i wouldn't be i don't think i would be here asking you to do this if you weren't the type of of man who i mean you got to call a spade a spade and unfortunately robbie was one of my favorites but he's human just like everybody else and so yeah i i commend you for doing what you did yeah but you know what what i see in the comments occasionally on that video that i just did is people saying i feel like i can't trust anybody anymore i feel like i can't trust any church or any leaders or anyone and i think to myself you're still the victim then of what he's done because it's definitely not true that you can't trust anybody but if you if you rob yourself of being able to trust anybody you're you're just allowing his his harm to continue to be perpetrated in your life just like an abusive person means i can never have a healthy marriage or something or lies about god means i can never believe the truth about god and and i would encourage you just to keep seeking and keep open as you seem to be right now you know opening and uh praying asking the lord to reveal himself to you that much more thank you and you just you just hit the nail on the head that's why i'm not completely you know an atheist i know i've been through a lot but i don't want that to stop me from you know knowing the truth so yeah yeah well if there's anything ever that i can help you out with uh you know i'm not a high pressure guy anyway i would just have conversations and offer thoughts and things like that so if there's anything please reach out to me and let me know and if and if anything ever changes with your family i would love to hear about that that would be so cool to just know and i'm very hopeful for that we're the first to know and if you don't mind i probably will reach out to you from time to time thank you so much for doing what you did today

Channel: Mike Winger

Views: 243,253

Rating: 4.8852043 out of 5

Keywords: WMSCOG, world mission society church of God, they got my kid, they got my daughter, mother God cult, did the mother God cult break his family, break his family, church of God, korean cult, ahn sahng hong, ahn song hong, mike winger, mother God

Id: IICnYikZod0

Length: 91min 54sec (5514 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 24 2021