Has the Sexual Revolution Failed Women? | Intelligence Squared

I am going to introduce both our two rather amazing feminists who are slightly younger than me I won't say how much younger um Louise is a writer and campaigner for women's rights who has been described as the most influential young feminist in Britain she's a columnist for unheard and a feature writer of The Daily Mail she hosts Maiden mother matriarch a podcast about sexual politics and last year she published this book the case against the sexual Revolution a new Guide to Sex in the 21st century which I have already given to my 20 year old daughter with advice to read as soon as possible Mary is a writer whose work has appeared in the times The Spectator the new States from The Daily Mail and first things among others she is a contributing editor at unheard and her new book is feminism against progress um which is also fascinating and I rather liked actually that it's very personal and a lot about your childhood and growing up and how you arrive Where You Are and tonight's event is going to run for an hour so for the first 45 minutes or so I'm going to talk with Louisa Mary and I'm going to take your questions you can put them up whenever you feel like it and Hannah is going to then send them over to me and you can start now by clicking on the ask question button the discussion will end at 6 45 and then I will take the questions um and I think Hannah's already said but you need to tweet using the hashtag um #iq2 and I think that's about it for housekeeping questions I think we can get on to the main debate now and um you're both friends so that's a good start um so this should be quite a Collegiate discussion um though we will definitely have certain differences and the first question I want to ask is whether you can both Define very briefly what a reactionary feminist is um it's a fantastic term and it's very different from post-liberal or traditional conservative and I really like it but I'm not 100 sure whether it means slightly different things to both of you or what exactly it means so I don't know who wants to start but maybe Mary you should stop because I think you may have coined it first I did coin the term um it was it it came out of a long-running argument with a friend over the over the phrase post-liberal and whether or not it really meant anything and in the end it was it was a very lengthy discussion I won't bore you with the ins and outs of it but in the end I conceded defeat on post-liberal and I changed my Twitter bio to a reactionary feminist just from post-liberal feminist just to see how long it would take for that to be noticed it took several days but and then by the time it was noticed and a number of other people had noticed it as well and first things wrote to me to say could you please explain what you mean by by this very arresting term reactionary feminist and I thought oh gosh I better decide what I mean it's one of those terms it every so often I'll come up with a term where I just like the sound of it and then I work backwards to what I actually mean and it always turns out to be I do actually mean something by it but in the end so so that's how I arrived at reactionary feminist um and what I mean by it or what it turned out that I mean by it is it's it's a it's the end point of a very lengthy set of questions I asked myself about whether it's possible to be a feminist if you don't believe in progress um I lost my faith in progress over a number of years in my 20s and just stopped believing that the world is on a never-ending upward trajectory and and I suppose the question the question I found myself asking is is it possible to disaggregate caring about women's interests from this belief that we're marching over onwards and there's the sort of ever growing pile of um orthodoxies the progressive orthodoxies that you have to sign up to if you if you want to be considered as as belonging belonging to this the Church of progress um you know and that's at one point that was just feminism and there's a number of other isms that have joined that since and I am well I have some questions about a number of them and so yeah but but you know is there a is there a Doctrine or is it is it more of a Doctrine or is it more of a Vibe um I think I think that's where it gets more tricky um in as much as it has a definition I would say it's what I understand by it is is deliberately not Universalist in the sense that I don't think there is a universal um universally applicable set of um doctrines for what constitute what's what's self-evidently going to be good for women because these vary according to class they vary according to material conditions the whole thrust of my argument in feminism against progress is that much of what looks like progress in terms of women's rights is actually when you when you drill down into it very much more about about the technological than moral progress um that's been as it were back rationalized um and once once once you start looking at it as as material conditions plus a set of back rationalizations then it raises the question of whether or not whether or not everybody really needs to sign up for all of these and I'll come to a conclusion that no it's possible to think in a much more grounded and relational contextual way about what constitutes women's interests and that in fact we need to do we need to add that perspective to our understanding of what those interests are because the same policy can be beneficial to women in one material and cultural context and obviously not in another and an appropriate deal at the time who is in that now how do you feel about that is it something that chimes with you or not did you instinctively when you saw that hashtag I think that that's me oh yes I mean mostly because it was funny I mean I think I think the great power of the term reactionary feminist is that it's um is it's funny and it's quite playful and it sort of preempts criticism because it means now that anyone who wants to try and use the word reactionary as a sort of grenade um you know they can't take the pin out we we already we already sort of own the label so I find it um it's quite good fun in that sense I I mean it's Mary's coinage and I think that it uh the yes it is it is partly A vibe I would say and I I wonder what what Mary thinks about this I would say that there are maybe a few points of Doctrine which probably are important the first would be that men and women are different in some quite profound ways I think that's I think that's a very important um element of reactionary feminism in physical ways but also in psychological ways on average you know there are there are lots of outliers in every direction but I think it is true to say that men and women differ psychologically on average and that's that's really fundamental if you want to say anything at all about the relationship between the Sexes um I think also that um Mary and I discussed this actually last week when she was on my podcast um the term conservative feminism I think is quite different because I think conservative feminism to this to the extent that that exists has a very different relationship with the recent past it's much more about trying to preserve um the culture of say a few decades ago not you know the 1950s stereotypically whereas I think reactory feminism I think that the I think actually what the project is is if we are progress apostates if we don't think that everything is just marching kind of upwards and onwards all the time then that means that people who lived in the past our ancestors were not bad and stupid right which means that they probably actually had some insights into um the relationship between the Sexes that we could learn from and given that there are lots of ways in which our our contemporary culture is extremely strange in technological terms and in Social terms um there is value to be had in looking at other times and places and looking for the common threads and thinking if that is a Common Thread that probably and we're not imitating it that probably suggests that there is some wisdom to that threat so one example would be like every culture has marriage for instance of some kind and there's probably a good reason for that and was there particular reason um said Murphy first that you decided that this sort of hookup culture and um the sort of casual sexism and the way men treat women you you'd hadn't often that it was wrong and you felt that it was backwards not not just progress in general but specifically how you were being treated as a woman was there was there a moment that you felt um I suppose my my experiences well I think I'm between your and Louise's ages approximately um which is to say I I came of age in the sort of ladet period in the naughties where I suppose I mean hookup culture has got a great deal more extreme since then as far as I can make out from friends who are younger there's especially accelerated by online dating but it was it was well it was sufficiently well established by the time I was in my late teens and early 20s there was I don't remember ever absorbing the I an idea from anyone that they should there should necessarily be any emotional connection between two people before they went to bed together um and I suppose you know after after you do that a number of times it just you just realize that why am I doing this this isn't Fun well certainly I that was the conclusion I came to you know I gather there are some people for whom that doesn't apply but but that was certainly how it was for me but I mean it was I mean my 20s were confused and chaotic and experimental time I think on a number of different fronts and I wouldn't say I went very methodically about um you know testing testing heterosexual hookup culture to destruction I tested all manner of things including heterosexual culture to destruction um and came to the conclusion at the end of it that in fact um really what ended it wasn't a wasn't a grand philosophical decision it was the fact that I fell in love and you know to with the man who to whom I am now married and have been for 10 years and that that wasn't as though that was an intellectual decision it was um it was a but but it was a blessing transformative how did you decide the wrong way and that you'd have it was all bunk um well I went via radical feminism in my sort of early 20s um uh and I should say that probably the first Domino to fall for me was um discussions around gender identity because I was at an extremely left one University I went to psoas and um the sort of hyper progressivism was was all the rage and the first and I remember being taught in a lecture that actually um the idea that humans were sexually dimorphic species is just not true and I sat there age 19 or something thinking I think it is true and I didn't I didn't say as much because I would be social suicide um but that was I think for me the first moment where I thought hang on if that's wrong what else might be wrong um and that was a yes that was a process that ended with me writing a book called the case against the sexual Revolution which I didn't expect to happen at the time um well I'm fascinated by is I think one of the main issues that we all really agree on across the generation so I am 55 we've you know 30s 40s is the porn culture and I find it extraordinary that we've been talking about this for years and it's got worse and worse and we've been writing about it for years and nothing has happened and I haven't really heard any men on the subject and particularly male MPS are very nervous about it because they then don't want to have to be asked whether they've watched porn which is often why the debate gets stifled I think because it's only on women who've already picked it up but do you feel that there is a case for porn at all online I mean do you or do you feel it should just be blocked for the under 18s and how liberal should we be because most of the discussion is just around children are watching porn but should we be allowing adults to watch as much porn as they do and you know why are we so relaxed about things like PornHub Mary do you want to answer that first no I'm going to bounce this one to Louise because this is really your photo um so I think the best argument for porn is not the sexual Liberation argument I find that very unpersuasive the idea that people just ought to have some sort of human right to have access to the most sort of varied and depraved sexual acts you can imagine being performed by strangers at you know at the click of a mouse I don't I don't find that persuasive we lasted however many hundreds of thousands of years as a species without access to online porn I think we can probably cope um the the probably the strongest argument and it's sort of an empirical argument and I haven't yet been persuaded that it's true but this would be if it were true this would be the best argument in favor of porn's availability is that it um decreases sexual violence that there are men who if they have access to porn are less likely to go and assault women offline I mean I don't if that is true I really don't love the idea of having these sort of sacrificial Lambs women in the porn industry encourage mates well that's the big question so it's an empirical question and it's just really really hard to answer I think it is unlikely that that is true because if you look at things like the way that porn has changed sexual cultures and sexual tastes so choking is the big example or strangulation more accurately used to be a niche within a niche you know basically you don't hear about it within the BDSM Community was which was extremely marginal or was mostly dominated by gay men now however it's on the front page of every major porn platform and all these shocking statistics about how many um women in their teens and 20s have been choked by Partners often without any kind of um warning you know yes um I think that has clearly come that's a fashion that has been cultivated by porn it is to some extent feeding off um sort of latent um sexual interest in both men and women but it but it hasn't just shot up in popularity spontaneously right it's clearly an effective porn so I think the more likely um answer to the empirical question of what what effect porn has on people is that it molds both male and female sexuality to the type of hyper hyper capitalist mode basically that we're they we all become sort of In hoc to whatever the executives of Mind geek want us to be watching and I know from teenagers having talked to them a lot at University numbers articles on it that the girls will say that they're being vanilla if they don't agree to various acts and that they feel that they are dull and boring and they are expected to perform in certain ways and Mary do you feel that that I mean that's not just not progress in many ways it's very sad that women don't think about their own enjoyment and sex as much as what they're achieving for men do you think that's that's part of it as well I do I mean pornography is clearly a big part of what's what's happened here I mean it's like I think the thing which get which sometimes gets misunderstood about porn is that it's not it doesn't just it's not just a set of images it's not a static thing it's a it has a it has force and direction in the sense that a stimulus which you might watch and find arousing um will wear off after a while and so anybody who consumes a lot of porn will start watching something relatively innocuous you know to two people at it and before and then after a while that just doesn't do it anymore so they go looking for something more intense and they look they're looking for something more and more intense and they that the whole process eventually inescapably leads people down these sometimes really dark rabbit holes and yeah obviously there's there are then the performers who are who are incentivized and sometimes coerced into performing um you know in order to create this increasingly extreme content but there's also there's also the the effect it has on on young people um in in terms of in terms of how it shapes men's and women's desires it very clearly affects them differently in the sense that you know most pornography is produced for male consumers and it's produced you know with a sort of grotesque caricature of the male gays and because it has this force and direction in into increasingly intense stimulus um that that that tends that tends in the direction of increasing violence increasing objectification increasing degradation bluntly um and for any young woman who's exposed to even a small amount of this material it's going to shape her imaginary as well and inevitably that means seeing herself from the man's point of view in which which you know if you consume enough talk in enough of this material means you end up just more or less unable to imagine yourself as actually enjoying it or only is able to imagine enjoying something which actually in practice in person is horrible and violent there's often I think the same young women will say that actually they should be allowed to wear what they want and act how they want and um drink what they want and I know Louise you've got a list of things that you shouldn't do as a woman if you want to stay safe but that would be seen as fairly provocative by the younger generation do you think they have to start looking at this in a different way uh yes it has been seen in a fairly provocative although um although I should say actually I have been uh Amazed by the response that I've had from young women I mean the book has been read as far as I can tell by just by every demographic um but I wrote it really for young women I wrote it really the book I wish that I'd had when I was 18. and um it has had an enormous response from those women and the thing that has really struck me as someone who is so I'm now 31 so I was a little bit um a little bit too old to be properly online you know we didn't get smartphones until we'd um we're just about to leave school we're in University which which which does hugely affect things like your exposure to porn whereas a younger generation obviously have grown up with it and they're the guinea pig Generation Um and it amazes me how um how cowed girls are many of them by this and how many girls will will I say girls I mean you know ages sort of um up to the age of maybe 25 will say I didn't know this I didn't know that you were allowed to object to Casual cultural casual sex I didn't know that it was okay to say that actually choking really wasn't something you wanted to do you know that on the one hand they're bombarded with the consent message which says You must consent to everything it's a yes or no very clear sort of situation but there's really no conversation about the huge gray area between an illegal consent and and virtue and they find actually negotiating that space almost impossible um because they don't feel as if they actually have permission to defend their own interests so one of the things that um I hope to do with a book and seem to have done at least with some readers is to um to offer that permission to say actually it is okay to gatekeep your body and to prioritize your own um comfort over that of other people it's something that young women find really hard not very often and actually Mary you and I were talking earlier about um the fact that although they they will let people do quite a lot often women and things in bed then they're not particularly comfortable with they're very uncomfortable they're walking down the street about wolf whistles or about any sort of mild flirting at work that you have the sense that they feel they have to be extremely Progressive in the bedroom but outside the bedroom they're very nervous about any interaction really at all or at school often you hear these I've read heartbreaking stories of you know really very young teenagers who Who Will consent to sometimes incredibly degrading things or which sound to me incredibly degrading um just because that's that's the price of getting a boy to hold your hand in public and then I'd be willing to bet that these are essentially the same girls yes who are who are a lot deeply alarmed by what what now gets called Street harassment um and I I find myself wandering to what extent online dating well the the internet generally is acting as an accelerant on both of these fronts in the sense that I mean whether whether you're whether it's because you're consuming porn or whether it's because it incentivizes a culture of impersonal always flicking on to the next um sexual hookups or whether it's because dating is always pre-pre-structured by having been arranged through the internet such that you never have a you never have an erotic counter as it were encounter in the wild I wonder I wonder if that's part part of making a contribution to to people's nervousness about about experiencing an unsolicited approach I mean this is not to say that there aren't some deep deeply unpleasant people who follow you along on the street and hey baby hey baby everybody you know any everyone who's ever been female teenage while female has had that experience and it's not nice and I certainly wouldn't want to minimize the fear that you can feel especially if you're relatively small or on your own however um it does seem to be more frightening now in a way which as you say Alice is is strangely at odds with what it seems a great many young women are willing to put up with of even quite unpleasant or you know really having doing doing quite disgusting things or things which they obviously don't enjoy more or less out of politeness I mean I've never been on hinge or Tinder or anything because I was just the wrong generation but I've got 14 age children and they have in various degrees probably used them um and I would say what's interesting to me is people are prepared to go off with people they've never met before whereas they're more worried about you know friends or people they're meeting nightclubs to I'd assume would be actually easier because they you might know their social group there's some sort of moral obligation to behave in a certain way often um and I think I think it might be displacement to some extent because I've thought this a lot about the intense anxiety that women often feel about um drink spiking and there's a whole ritual surrounding drink spiking which has been in practice you know long since my University days where you know you get the covers for your cup and you you when you go to the toilet you leave it with a friend and all this sort of stuff and um there's been so much research done on this and has you know for instance um people showing up in a e and testing their blood and so on doing spiking is actually really rare it does happen but it doesn't happen anywhere near as often as people think and invariably what actually happens when people think they're being had their drinks by because they've just drunk more than they realized and they've just ended up being much drunker than they expected this is it's a kind of um there's a provocative thing to point out but it is it is borne out by the data and I think what's going on with women getting very anxious about drink spiking is that they are quite legitimately anxious about being drunk in public with men they don't know which is the new and Mary mentioned the ladet culture you know this is a very new innovation the idea of women getting very very drunk in mixed company was not considered to be normal even sort of the 1980s this is like a 1990s Innovation women do feel legitimately anxious about that and they know that they are vulnerable in that situation but to actually forswear drinking would be too much there'd be too much of a social penalty so instead that anxiety is displaced onto the drink spiking which is so I wonder if that's also what's going on with some of the um the other anxieties about things like cat calling while also you know going back to a stranger's flat is considered to be completely normal behavior I think there's a lot of confused emotion going on and you also feel that men are after natural rapists that there's a higher percentage that we realize of men who are more aggressive towards women um why did you come to that conclusion in your book saying men in natural rapist is probably not quite how I'd rather I would say that um it is consistent across every culture that we know of on the anthropological and historical record that men are more likely to commit sexual violence and indeed all kinds of violence than our women and there's a very clear age profile as well it's a young man's game it tends to be between sort of um mid-teens and say mid-30s that you see this huge spike in violent offending of all kinds and again that's consistent across time and place um you know only about five percent of the prison population in the UK are female and that's not because of a conspiracy against men that's because men just commit a lot more crime of all kinds particularly violent crime um that doesn't mean that really doesn't mean that all men are violent or potentially violent there really is um a bell curve and only a minority of men are to be found at the most aggressive end but it also means that women don't know um just to look at a man whether or not he falls into that category it's a kind of it's a mostly invisible thing um and I think it's something that we just have to reckon with and because it's not it's not going away you know we have to we have to take account of the fact that sexual aggression does seem to be a human Universal um and we have to manage it and Mary do you feel that um there is a particular reason why the rape statistics are just so low on conviction and why the police don't seem to take it seriously and why the courts don't take it seriously I don't know this is not something I've written about the the extremely low conviction rate I mean it's it seems it seems plausible to me that there are a set of assumption a set of publicly held and probably unstated assumptions about what's actually going on in a lot of these situations I think it's also in in a lot of situations just very difficult to prove to to a degree which would which would satisfy a legal test um is it is it evidence of institutional sexism I don't know I mean I dare say there are there are a number of policemen and members of the Judiciary who think well she was asking for it and we can you know reasonable people of good faith can differ as to whether that's even an acceptable way of of framing the situation what I what I would say certainly is that the sexual revolution has brought us into a situation where women are to a far greater extent vulnerable to the kind of he said she said Dynamic which even which which may have felt like something that a woman would have wanted to go along with at the time but which then looks in the cold light of day like something much more abusive and much more exploitative and as Louise said earlier there's this huge gray area which is just incredibly difficult to negotiate particularly if you're in a stranger's flat particularly if there's a power dynamic between you such that I mean for us as in the Harvey Weinstein situations where you you feel for other reasons it's difficult to say no I mean this goes all the way back to the 1960s sexual Revolution Virginia Ironside whom I've quoted in feminism against progress makes the point very eloquently where she says all of a sudden armed with the pill and paraphrasing slightly there was no longer a robust reason ever to say no to a man even if you didn't really want to have sex with him and so she said on a number of occasions she remembers she remembers going to bed with people because it felt more really out of politeness because it felt easier to do that than than to kick them out of the flat um and I think and it's very difficult to see how how that can be how that can be as for as long as for as long as sex is is disaggregated from the consequences of sex women don't really have a robust reason to say no well I mean if you're if you could get pregnant you've got a very solid reason to say no actually I'm I don't know you from Adam and you can you can get out of my flat please or you know I'm not even not even going to get myself into that situation but but when you don't then inevitably you're you are going to find yourself in more vulnerable situations unless you're just extraordinarily um socially reserved in a way which is just not normal today and you both celebrate marriage very much do you think that partly because you've been lucky enough to meet someone or do you think that you've compromised in any way um to meet someone it wasn't just romantic love Emma Thompson said this week There's no such thing as romantic love and actually um it's all about finding a partner and working with them did it make a difference to you Louise do you think that that actually do feel like a smug marriage do you feel lucky or do you think that most people should be able to find someone whom they can create a partnership uh yes so I've been with my husband for um almost 10 years you might be able to hear him in the background he's wrestling our son into his pajamas right now in the room next door um and um yes I mean my few I don't need to remember um a woman I can't remember her real name but a woman who came to be known as Princeton mum who wrote a piece in um the Princeton alumni magazine or student magazine or something some years ago about uh the advice that she had a I think a daughter or a son maybe at Princeton at the time and she had personally been to Princeton and she met her husband at Princeton and she wrote um an essay address to the young women of Princeton saying now is the perfect time to find your husband because you will never again be surrounded by so many single eligible men and you know whatever like and she was absolutely right over the course and there was some very funny um breakfast news segments featuring her available on YouTube which I recommend people watching she's great um Princeton mum is right you know Princeton mum is right and I think that the the way that we conceptualize marriage now has been so much more a a means of emotional self-fulfillment is a recipe for failed marriages because that's just such a difficult bar to clear over the course of your entire life whereas I think if we understand I mean Mary I'm sure he's going to speak to this in a moment because she's got lots of great stuff about this in her book if we step away from What miracles big romance and think of marriage more as a basis on which to form a family um you know my argument is that I think if you don't have children you don't want to have children marriage can really be treated as just sort of a cherry on life's cake um and uh and and and means of self-fulfillment but otherwise fairly meaningless if you do have children though it is of enormous um economic and social importance to be able to build to build your life on the basis of this partnership and I think if we understood marriage in those terms rather as rather than in the sort of Disney princess way um I think people would fare much better and Mary do you feel that because you feel strongly don't you that Generation X don't actually put in the work that if there's a sense that you that they don't realize that it's quite difficult it's not all easy it's not all romance it's not a fairy tale well as I've as I've argued in the book some of this is done to the fact that it's no longer economically necessary in the same you know we're no longer as economically interdependent men and women as might once once have been the case you know where all sisters are doing it themselves you know we can all in in Theory earn our own salaries and so there isn't that there isn't this sense that if you want to have a life together you sort of need to stick together and there's there isn't there's this sort of sense of being economically Under Siege in quite the same way so so that that opens the space rightly or wrongly and some people would say this is a positive thing um for people to think of marriage as as something more like a consumer good the self-expressive marriage is the term that somebody else coined I've often the Name Escapes me now but I think it's a very useful term this is it this sense of a marriage is something which has to be perfect in every way all of the time and if it's not then you can end it at any time for any reason and there was a a very shocking I thought article that ran in the Atlantic last year um of this of as a personal piece by a woman who called how I demolished my life and it's just and it's her story of ending her marriage because she wanted to because she just felt because I wanted to feel the wind in my hair as she puts it and she had two young children and a husband who is who as far as I could make out was a good husband and she just she just blew it all up um and I and and then she thought you know and well what why did I do it all and you know why did I put the kids through all of that and then she said and she sort of says well because I wanted to and I think well I I have to hope it worked out for the best for her kids but you know I wonder I wonder how they'll feel looking back at that piece when they're grown up and everything they went through in the aftermath of that um I mean when it comes to I mean you know I I prefer to leave my own marriage kind of as a black box because it doesn't just belong to me and so it's not really it's not really appropriate to talk about it on the internet um even even with trusted friends um but but what I will say is that I don't getting married means choosing one person um which means settling pretty much by definition so it's not meaningful to talk about not compromising that it just isn't you know everybody has at least one annoying habit and I I have countless annoying habits and I'm infinitely grateful for for having for being blessed with somebody what's up with them um and and I think foreign wanting to make the case for post-romantic marriage is in saying I it's my subtle belief that even though the apocalyptic the Greta Thornburg scenario is probably over over egging it slightly you know I I look at I look at how much more unstable and more scarce and more really volatile the world is on so many metrics than it was when I was a teenager in the 1990s and I think are we are we really so certain that we can rely on the kind of abundance that underwrites that sort of economic independence from one another into the future such that it's prudent to teach our children that they don't have to rely on a spouse in order to be able to relate to raise a family in safe and secure conditions and I'm just not confident enough that the future is going to be an abundant one like mine was in the 1990s I mean my adulthood isn't that even now the world has changed so much I mean in the last 20 years we've seen how many economic crashes how many Bank runs you know we've seen War come back to Europe we've seen you know climate changes here you have to you have to be willfully blind not to see that these these things are shaking the foundations of you know the the very enabling conditions of progress and under those circumstances I think you you have to make a feminist case for if for for those mothers who want to have children for being willing to try and find a way of back into solidarity with the opposite sex because going into going into on our own I'm just not confident that we'll it'll be a world in which my daughter can do that safely if she ever wants children foreign

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Id: v8kQFVBQq2k

Length: 35min 32sec (2132 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 15 2023