Harris vs Pence Vice Presidential Debate Body Language

yeah mark was like yeah one of the flags is waving it indicates motion and movement forward [Laughter] we had it you made me sound like a bricklayer from from all right i'll put the wall there but i can't say it will stay up forever it might fall down that's all i'm saying that's the best i can do is make you sound like a chimney sweep from mary poppins or i'll go up the chimney but i'm not saying i'll be able to get down again it could be worse he could make you into like some cornwallian or something i always love those guys because i can't understand a damn word they're saying yeah greg is that an adapter gesture you were just doing that's good it's uh that's good boredom gesture had a long day all right so we ready yeah let's go into it all right here we go i'm scott ralph oh sorry i'm scott rouse my buddy [Music] ready here we go i'm scott rouse i'm a body language expert and analyst i trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation body language i also created bodylanguagetactics.com with greg hartley mark i'm mark bowden i'm an expert in human behavior and body language i help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they speak including some of the leaders of the g7 chase hi chase hughes i'm a number one best-selling author in behavioral profiling influence and persuasion i train government agencies in such and the general public and i'm the author of this fiction book here which is about to be a tv series greg i'm greg hartley i'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor i've written a bunch of books on body language and behavior and put this course together this number one course with scott called body language tactics dot com i spend most of my time on wall street and in corporate america excellent all right well today we're doing part two of the harris pence debate vice presidential debate the last one uh seemed like there wasn't a whole lot going on but as we found out there's a lot more going on than we that was obvious to the the normal viewer so reports point some of those things out and we're going to be doing that again today as well does anybody have something want to add to this where we go forward yeah so guys here's what we're going to do in this video much like we did the presidential debate we'll play a clip of video that shows both people at the same time then we will cover first one then the other and then play the video a second in time for you to be able to see what we were talking about in the first case we'll start with pence and then move to harris and then the next time we'll go from harris to pence how's that now as we go through this keep in mind we go right down the middle and we call them like we see them we're not on the left side we're on the right side if you think we are then you're wrong because all we're doing is telling you what we see and you find somebody else that does what we're doing now and they'll do the same thing for you they'll say no they're not being to the left or to the right they're just telling you what they see that's exactly what they're looking at so keep that in mind as we go forward it's so important because if not ruins the whole thing so all right we're good yeah let's go the first video when you speak about the supreme court though i think the american people really deserve an answer senator harris are you and joe biden going to pack the court if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed i mean there have been 29 vacancies on the supreme court during presidential election years from george washington to barack obama presidents have nominated in all 29 cases but your party is actually openly advocating adding seats to the supreme court which has had nine seats for 150 years if you don't get your way this is a classic case of if you can't win by the rules you're going to change the rules now you've refused to answer the question joe biden has refused to answer the question so i think the american people would really like to know if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed with the supreme court of the united states are you and joe biden if somehow you win this election going to pack the supreme court to get your way all right mark you want to go first yeah sure so what interests me most about this is you see him kind of stabilize himself for this moment and then i would say he gets quite performative around it these are performed behaviors including i would say the lip bite that he does it's very much measured it doesn't really fall in the right places to be a true kind of lip suppressor i think he's performing for the audience the feeling and emotion he wants them to feel while they then uh you know hear the reply of of of harris and i think he's pretty good at this uh i think you really hear that radio show uh wistful voice he takes you back in time to to uh to a uh uh you know uh to a wistful place there's those emotional kind of almost dreamy voice that he has it is really quite a performance and i think it works very well one thing i will point out is are you and biden going to pack the court and we do see his head spring back and this display of the throat uh as as uh maybe not a chin up but certainly he's very proud of delivering that remark to her that's what i got for that one chase what do you got we know that harris knew this question was coming and when she hears it start her blink rate goes from about a 44 to a 98 so that's a shift in behaviors so what we're really seeing here is a stress response so typically blink rate increases with stress and decreases with relaxation or focus on something and we see that shoot up it's perfect it's a perfect illustration of what to look for if you're in sales or if i'm coaching an attorney on what jurors are starting to agree with you they're going to be blinking less often so that's a great indicator there that's a good educational takeaway there's a good lip compression and retraction there with harris that is great and i typically teach that compression is withholding and retraction is most of the time a need for reassurance pence's blink rate stays an average of about 20 through the whole video the questions rehearsed he is in full political mode right now and the hand gestures and the timelines are very important when pence is talking about timelines his past tense we typically view timelines in left to right fashion so he's doing his left to his right as a timeline if i was coaching him i would absolutely teach him this one critical thing if you're looking at a person timelines go that way to that person so when i'm referencing the past i'm going to move over here i'm referencing the future it's going to be this direction so the timeline is more relatable to the people that are watching scott what do you got excellent um i'll start off i'm trying to get i'm trying to mark stuff off as you guys talk about it so uh with pence we don't see a whole lot you know we talked about that last time but at the same time we don't see a whole lot we see so much because he's so trained to be stoic and he's so practiced at it to look like the alpha his movements are slow there's nothing big he's not moving around doing these smiles and getting really huge ex you know expressions on his face he's he's in there being the alpha he's being the guy that has he's prepared and everything he's he's throwing out or everything he's firing over that way is timed it looks good it sounds like and sounds the way it should the chin jet that you were talking about mark and and what you're talking about as well chase i think you're right because when his head goes back after he says that the head goes back it's not it's not like there you go it's more of a here's what it's more like i'm being dominant in the situation i know something and and that i don't think that i've got you i'm stinging you with this so here it comes like that it's almost like not arrogance but it's that that look of i got you now that's the that's the road he's going down with that that's what it looks like to me um all right greg what do you got yeah so here's where baseline is everything we talk about pence and we're talking about pence not moving much but pence moves a hell of a lot for pence if you've watched pence throughout everything else he's ever done in his life even when he's standing his delivery is metered i wouldn't say wooden i don't believe it's wooden i think he actually delivers his hands measure exactly what he's saying he just takes his time he doesn't move around a lot he's doing the chained elephant in the chair here watch him he's actually moving i've never seen him move this much which means he's animated he's going after harris when pence goes after harris his cadence of speech rises the elevation at the end of his sentences rise not in an asking but in a telling driving the point home and then there's actually a place in here you see contempt you watch his right lip rise at about 18 seconds into the video as he's talking to her after he calls um biden and harris out on are you going to pack the court i love the head back chin raised but he also squints his eyes that's my dad and where were you tonight son when i was 16 and took the car so that's a hey i got you on the gri on the on the grid and i'm going after you his blink rate is up there's some increased emotion in this for him because i think this is his point to make in this debate is you're going to pack the court and this comes up throughout this whole interchange we're going to see this is his gotcha for the entire thing okay that's what i got yeah all right mark what do you got yeah so here's what i've got with harris and i'm going back to what you were alluding to there or stating their um uh chase at the start which is i started looking at her blink rate and i instantly went i think that's quite high but you've got to be careful because well you know what do i know i don't know the baseline so i went back to a speech that she did at uh democratic congress 2020 and it's when she accepts the nomination now it's not a big crowd there but it is a home crowd for her she's rehearsed she's she's reading a speech but we've got to accept there's still going to be a high level of stress and pressure for her what i got was half the blink rate in that speech and she and it doubles in this so i'm gonna suggest she's feeling herself under quite a lot of stress and pressure right now now i'm i didn't then go and baseline the rest of this speech and maybe chase you've got a better idea of what's going on here throughout the speech i'd be interested in that so i don't know whether that's her baseline throughout this but i will say it seemed quite notable to me just how strong the blink rate was how the blink rate was um oh and i think we do see her as well really starting to shift in the seat as well a lot a lot of movement and not the excited movement that i'll explain to you what that looks like um a little bit uh a little bit later on uh in this scott what you got all right well for harris here's what i got we see her hands clasped together and when they come together she's used this as a combination of an adapter and an illustrator as well because as she starts talking then we'll see her hit these on specific words or phrases now notice when she first starts doing this her thumbs are down like or down a little bit like this joe navarro the you know he's the guy he's the godfather as greg says of the body language we studied today he's the one that's always talking about thumbs and how important they are so they're very important because if your thumbs go away that means you're you're um you don't feel confident you're not sure what's going on or you may not have the answer those types of things when you see them go down that's when you lose your confidence hers are they're up a little but they're they're sort of down compared to what they're going to be in a minute because she starts writing and she turns away from pants and starts acting like she's probably writing something but she's writing something down almost ignoring and and belittling him to make it make it like it's like when someone is talking to you and they're talking about something you start preening it's that writing is the same thing i believe given the same feelings if she was preening she's totally ignoring him and as she does once she does that and comes back then we see her her hands come together the class clasped together we slow slowly see her thumbs come up rise up a little bit they don't come up like this but they rise up just a little bit because she's got confidence with the answer she's giving when and on her when she's speaking about when she's using this as the [Music] illustrator they hit on every word we're going to talk about that when we see in the next one but that's what i i'm seeing is the important parts here greg what do you got yeah so this one's loaded for me number one she is demonstrative in body language much more than pence is by nature her baseline is much higher much more elevated so you don't see her change as much but there's a tremendous amount of body language leaking in the beginning when pence is talking she's looking at her notes her lips are pursed in disapproval you can't miss that little purse that she does and then she actually starts some mouth movement and you see her moving around inside her mouth when people are thinking they'll move their lips and move their tongue around and her tongue actually leaves her mouth at one point i think it's around 36 seconds her tongue actually leaves her mouth as she's sitting thinking everything's going good and then as he calls her name as he calls her out and says senator harris what are you going to do she turns and she points her nose directly at him she starts paying attention to him she locks in her barriers increase that's when her hands close and her blank rate increases significantly then she transitions to that smile i call it the robert de niro smile like he was going to get you if you if you think of de niro as a as a bad guy anytime you're in trouble with him he had kind of a weird smile upper face was condemning lower face smiling you see that come out in her so i say it's a lot like a de niro smile her lower face is engaged but her upper face looks not the same it's it's a i think it is a practiced thing from her prosecuting days it's a way to control conversation and she uses her face much as a regulator to control conversation if you watched her she does it very well the only other person on the campaign who does that is trump and i bet they would hate for me to compare the two of them but they both use their face as a regulator over and over and over that's a form of skepticism she's showing him then she transitions to amusement and her eyes light up as she realizes he's stepping into her trap about lincoln and you can see her face change she points her head down she's amused one of my favorite little curls of the mouth the eyes sparkle and she starts scribbling her next steps and what she's going to do if he could read body language he would know something ugly is about to happen and i think he misses an opportunity there i got more than that because there's a whole lot in her face and her using her face to regulate but i think she she is a fantastic non-verbal communicator and she's got she's used it her entire time and guys when you hear that i don't want you to hear me saying he's a slow moving slow speaking that's very alpha she's not she's done it the other way those are two very different styles that are effective for these two people yeah excellent when you speak about the supreme court though i think the american people really deserve an answer senator harris are you and joe biden going to pack the court if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed i mean there have been 29 vacancies on the supreme court during presidential election years from george washington to barack obama presidents have nominated in all 29 cases but your party is actually openly advocating adding seats to the supreme court which has had nine seats for 150 years if you don't get your way this is a classic case of if you can't win by the rules you're going to change the rules now you've refused to answer the question joe biden has refused to answer the question so i think the american people would really like to know if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed with the supreme court of the united states are you and joe biden if somehow you win this election going to pack the supreme court to get your way all right let's move on to the next one yep i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson let's do that a little more in 1816 i'd like you to answer the question mr vice president speaking i'm speaking okay in 1864 one of the i think political heroes certainly of the president i assume if you also mr vice president is abraham lincoln abraham lincoln was up for re-election and it was 27 days before the election and a seat became open on the united states supreme court abraham lincoln's party was in charge not only of the white house but the senate but honest abe said it's not the right thing to do the american people deserve to make the decision about who will be the next president of the united states and then that person can select who will serve for a lifetime on the highest court of our land and so joe and i are very clear the american people are voting right now and it should be their decision about who will serve on this most important body for a lifetime thank you all right mark what do you got yeah so we're going to go with harris first on on this one and uh look when when she mentions 1864 you see her kind of wiggle in the chair and lift up that's when we know she believes she's got something really great and she's very proud and excited by what she's going to do here which is a class maneuver and it's a class maneuver for the following reasons what it does by going along the abraham lincoln line you know a hero of the of the president a hero of yours logically what it suggests is well if you're going to buy into that you have to buy into everything i'm going to say and all the things that person said that's not true you never have to do that in logic by the way you can say that person is a hero of mine but i don't agree with this specific thing that they did at this time but of course that's that's tricky in debate when the other person gets to speak all the time you don't get a chance to to intersect into uh what i would call in in in logic a syllogism or or crooked thinking essentially anyway so here's what happens is she knows she's got him uh trapped here she enjoys it now of course what it also does as well to go back in history which of course pence loves to do but also is a conservative generally a conservative value things that happened in the past let's conserve those ideas so by going into the past uh it secures a conservative idea and therefore it's a tough one for pence to fight back on she's very pleased about this i'll talk later on about how pence responds to this and his essence his disappointment i would suggest around this i would say right at the start a little history lesson a little more to be honest it is a little bit condescending verbally around that but again nice maneuver why not everything's fair in these debates quite honestly and so what she does is opens with a framework of condescension and then starts um i guess penetrating uh pence's argument with some faulty logic but really skillfully skillfully done and she knows that skill and she's very pleased with that i thought it i thought it was great uh chase what do you got on this i picked up really sharply on that word little history lesson as well and i think that was deliberately diminutive and dare i say juvenile in in the response there but we see that postural adjustment she knows she has the trap ready to go and when she's reminding him i'm speaking this was reminiscent of watching the movie mean girls to me this did not seem like it was rehearsed it seemed like that was that was some of her coming out that was the non-acting part coming out there and this was it seemed again juvenile but she came back really hard she said 27 days before the election and she starts nodding to the camera to get the viewers at home to start nodding along as she's talking about the election coming up if i were coaching her when she said the word election i would have her subtly gesture towards herself anytime she said the word vote important brilliant election just tiny subtle gestures towards herself as she's nodding to the camera to help connect those two things and she does it again when she says we're voting people are voting right now and again some more great coaching reference to the camera when she says it is their decision looking at the camera and nodding this is a well-coached or well-learned behavior that is very influential especially in this medium coming through a camera scott what do you got all right well with harris on this part again we see class class hands so we see the thumbs together when she emphasizes oh she uses him as an illustrator she hits history and more so those are the important words to her she wants some there's a little history lesson let's talk about a little bit more those are the ones that are important to her then she almost pops out of her chair and she makes a sound with her foot as she's moving and she looks like a kid in high school who said okay what do you have and and then she pops up and says and does this and acts like she and smiles her big and acts like she's gonna deliver it's so childlike to be doing it's it's like a child in school who's been told to do something and they deliver it that way good or bad i don't know that's her style then she spreads her hands and that sort of gets your attention like mark's always talking about trying to get you boxed in get your attention right in here as she starts delivering that and then um overall it's sort of a um she's she's loaded for bear with this one and i think she's so ready she can't hardly stand it that's why we see all the excitement with her greg what do you got yeah so a handful of things number one i love that you pointed out the nodding because it works really well it also for you watching is a great tool in an argument if i'm arguing with you i will never tell you what my argument is i listen to yours and nod until you give me your entire argument and then i chop it up in pieces when i'm done that's something you can use and take away from this she's loaded for bears exactly what i was thinking as well scott she's got her hands here and that is not a barrier in this case that's waiting waiting waiting and i find it really funny that suddenly the trap springs open and she comes after you it's almost poetic to watch then when he interrupts condescending is exactly what i saw as well she points her chin and closes her eyes and says i'm talking and then flashes her teeth and that is a normal behavior for her i've seen her do it again this week so it's something she's accustomed to doing saying don't cut me off i am going to talk and you know depending on where you grow up what you deal with what kind of industry you're in that may be a vital and important piece her whole body moves to your guys point to that postural bump or whatever else you want to call it when she comes up she starts the head nodding and then she makes good solid eye contact with him and then i got you when she's talking to the camera you can see that she's probably been coached by the same person that joe biden has been coached by because she moves in with both hands and then starts the evangelist thing to the camera and then as she finishes she closes her eyes has a little smile barriers and has purse lips if you watch just at the end and that's the prosecution rests she's done perfect oh nicely done i'm used to mark wrapping it up that was a great one man we got pence yeah pins next yeah all right mark what do you got yeah so here's my view on how pence deals with what is actually a very very good maneuver on harris's part because he has to agree with the whole premise of lincoln has to agree with that and so now she's taking him down a route of faulty logic i think he knows that i think he knows he's now trapped and what we see is in my view uh lip suppression we see quite a big swallow we get a really nice subtle but but because pence literally most of the time does nothing a very subtle disdain on him is actually quite big and it's held for a long long time there's nothing to really mask it so we get lip suppression swallow we get disdain and i think what is lovely at the end of it all is i think we get sadness at the end of it i think he's actually uh quite upset about how he got caught in this one and well he should be because at the start of this whole thing he was pretty triumphant that he was taking harris down quite a good route she switched it quite well on him on on lincoln in 1864. and now he's in the corner of the room and he can't get out of it and he's like oh that's really depressing how that went for me so i really love this exchange um it's great how it works out from uh from a logistics uh point of view you know whoever whoever you side with whatever your bias is you gotta love the pattern that plays out there because it really is quite quite lovely uh chase what do you got on this one i i saw many of the same things here so i we see his blink rate go up and we see a flash of contempt on his face the moment she says voting right now we see a little flash of contempt and i i'm not going to contribute too much to this we saw a lot of a lot of harris here but what we really saw here was a guy who moved a pawn or a rook into the wrong place and got put in check scott what do you got all right well here after her salvo of saying uh his the first sentence out of her mouth we see his nostrils flare i think there might be being those man having a big one i can talk speak freely about the nose it looks like his nostril on the on the right as we're looking at his left nostril might be something wrong with it because as when those nostrils flare it doesn't go out very far but the other one does but i can see a little bit of movement in that one so that maybe that uh fighter flight's kicking in but at the same time he's con he's his composure is still contained so that's good and after she says abe lincoln um we see his lips purse and he did twice he does this thing where it's a closed where he goes then like that and then we see not long after that when she says uh but almost but honest abe that's when we see i believe it's on stage that's when he does the stress mouth i call it disappearing ellipse raise but he's containing all that anger and then when uh yeah so then um you see that contempt when he really does smile after she says um honest abe when he's turning away from me he actually does a real smile and a real laugh but the same time you see that one side of the mouth go up and it's contempt you see that not even it's not even a hint it's we got a full-blown contempt thing going on there so it's i think that's that's a classic sign of that greg what do you got yeah so when he says i would like you to answer the question he makes hard eye contact with the moderator if you notice that he's trying to get them to answer questions his hands go down and you see concern in his brow he looks at the moderator and you can see he he has the look of come on teacher hey what's going on almost like a kid when he's doing that his dominant eye starts to shrink he's frustrated with the situation his blink rate is up but he nods agreement when she says i'm talking he does a regulator and he you know he's civil and does a regulator and moves on and then he has a kind of a taste in his mouth that thing you were talking about where kind of pushes his lips forward just a little followed by lip compression and chase i know you say withheld information i will say often the same thing but i think it's controlled emotion which is information same thing depends on whether it's words or something else you're holding he makes eye contact with the camera and when he gets that smirk of contempt it's clear it is not hidden at all when he looks right at the camera when she's talking about the mirror the american people are voting watch that that the right side of his face is asymmetric to the left left is straight the right side smirked and he's clear at it and then finally he closes eye blocks and tilts his head almost like are you done and i agree with you i think she got he put his pawn or some other piece in the way and he got it run over is what happened here now he has to recover and we go from there but i think it is what it is i i see a lot of i wish i hadn't done that excellent i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson let's do that a little more in 1816 i'd like you to answer the question mr vice president speaking i'm speaking okay in 1864 one of the i think political heroes certainly of the president i assume if you also mr vice president is abraham lincoln abraham lincoln was up for re-election and it was 27 days before the election and a seat became open on the united states supreme court abraham lincoln's party was in charge not only of the white house but the senate but honest abe said it's not the right thing to do the american people deserve to make the decision about who will be the next president of the united states and then that person can select who will serve for a lifetime on the highest court of our land and so joe and i are very clear the american people are voting right now and it should be their decision about who will serve on this most important body for a lifetime thank you all right we're good yeah all right let's move on senator harrison susan are voting right now they'd like to know if you and joe biden are going to pack the supreme court if you don't get your way in this nomination let's talk about that you once again gave a non-answer joe biden gave anonymous trying to answer you american people deserve a straight answer and if you haven't figured it out yet the straight answer is they are going to pack the supreme court if they somehow win this election men and women i got to tell you people across this country if you cherish our supreme court if you cherish the separation of powers you need to reject the biden harris ticket come november the 3rd re-elect president donald trump and we'll stand by that separation powers in a nine seat supreme court mark what do you got yeah so uh here's what i want to focus on is uh pence when he talks about packing kind of in the center of that what he does because he now he flops around a little bit before that he can't quite find his way but once he decides okay i'm gonna go for packing and and he decides to play that piece he looks straight down the camera uh he raises his eyebrows to to get that the public's attention he starts nodding his head on that and he starts really controlling the message at this point it takes him a while but when he gets there he absolutely consumes the camera and takes all the audience's attention i'll tell you later on what i see in uh in harris when this happens but ultimately i would say he was looking for a recovery it takes him some time to get there he absolutely gets there and his opponent uh is not happy of that recovery but i'll leave it at that just just great work on on eyebrow rays heading down the camera stabilizing and getting that point across on packing and finding that stability on that uh chase what do you got for me so he announces his question or begins his question with something called a postural tilt and this is if she is on his his right he leans away from her while asking the question i think this is indicative of why when we're going to ask for something big from our mom and dad when we're little we kind of lean away and i think this is a a little retreat a little subconscious retreat as the question comes out and as he's saying you need to reject the biden harris ticket he shows more concealed contempt that you can see in the replay or you can double tap the screen and go back and look at it and harris has a great response to that we'll talk about in a minute greg what do you got yeah there's an uncharacteristic thing for him in using a regulator or mark as you would call it a modulator or a moderator and i as i watch him i'm seeing i'm just trying to get a straight answer here he i'm asking this question and then he realizes she's not going to do it he's like don't waste your time forces his hand forward uncharacteristic of him typically then his right brow goes up and he starts to pay more to lock in on her with his with both eyes and his voice is telling at this point it's not asking there's no more that and then he gets to this point where he starts talking about if they somehow manage to win and you see his brows up if they somehow manage to win i think what he's saying here is they don't have a chance of winning believe me but he may not be certain himself at the same time i think he's trying to tell her answer the question if he had any control he would and your point chase he rises as he leans away at the same time i think that's all i've got so scott what do you got yeah all right i'd say usually i'm not i hate doing being at the end when there's all these specifics in here because like everything gets eaten up um so again we're seeing all these these alpha behaviors with with with him where he's just stoic you know which i think are classic we're not we're not seeing a lot but we're seeing so much by not seeing a lot uh because his gestures are clean the right to the point and again when he's looking right down the barrel of the camera she starts to talk and he sort of waves her off so he uses that hand as a a regulator to get rid of her to to to help her you know to shut her down as he's trying to say something uh and you're right he's he's that's all i got i mean look that's what i got for but i had to even go down greg's saying because that's i got the same things dang it you could talk about greek mythology and just kind of throw away that's right that's right with the romans and the greeks by this time yeah yeah well there's one that was called um i don't i don't have anything i can't follow up with that i got nothing okay ready here we go all right chase what do you got the the greatest thing here at the very beginning harris stops breathing when the question starts coming out she's taking a big breath and the moment she realizes the question that pence is asking her breath completely stops i thought that was very interesting she's really taking a moment to pause there backing up a little bit of backpedaling mentally going on and right away she starts fidgeting brushes her hair away i'm sure greg greg's talked about that before i'm sure greg will bring that up and brings both her hands up protecting the super sternal notch which is this little divot right here in our rib cage i was trying to imagine you guys watching this video while scott was talking about nostril flaring i was trying really hard not to do it on camera i was trying to imagine you guys watching this at home all the people nostril flaring around the world and right when he finishes up and it's going to be her turn to speak we see a large tension increase in this muscle right here and this is the sternocleidomastoid it jumps in front of the carotid artery when we have the facial expression of fear that pulls our neck down if you watch a scare compilation you'll see it so we see a small micro muscular movement of fear as it starts to get her turn to speak as as pence is wrapping up scott what do you got okay great thanks i can actually get something in this time um all right well i think she stops that she stops reading because she takes a gut punch with this when that's coming out of his mouth she's like so that kind of that puts us a stop to what she's what she's talking about then when she starts that the super stern line she starts guarding that we see that she guards the entire throat with us at the same time so she's on she's trying to be uh trying to come on as a little snarky with him like go on but at the same time we know that she's guarding that her entire throat doing that her arms come in tight her arms come in tight around her chest and push close to her chest around her sides that shows fight or flight as well and then you have um when he says pence says you need to reject the biden harris ticket she does this thing i don't think i've seen this very often i've seen a couple times she purses her lips and then they go to one side then the other side then we see just a hint of stress mouth i think she's trying going back to chase's point of trying to hold in information i think that's actually what we're seeing there she's trying not to say anything she's trying not to talk at that point um and she sort of freezes because she's in a in a daze as he's not really but in in a debate situation as he's finishing that that volley or attack on her his salvo and then but when she says mr vice president you see her eyes start to flutter there at the end when she starts saying that mr vice president now that could either be eye blocking like she's she's trying to get her stuff back together or it could be she's fluttering her eyes at him sort of in a flirtatious thing but i don't think that's the the mode she's in at that point and greg what do you got yeah this is a really good one when we talk about flirtation people often associate that with sexuality but i say people can flirt to close space and by flirtation i mean if you're on a plane and there's a two-year-old four seats away they can close space between you and them she's masterful at that kind of flirtation not sexual flirtation but the ability to close space and that is a power that is a superpower with people having the ability to close space and make you feel like you're there what is interesting is she does something that i've coined the phrase in the past i called i'm just a girl you see it a lot of times in women who are in non-traditionally women populated companies like industrials and those kinds of companies women make their way in a lot of times they'll push their hair back over their ear and because i'm a man and i've been in the room with women doing it i don't know how often they do it when it's just women in the room but i will tell you that women in the room full of like male dominated businesses will often do that and it's not a sign of weakness because it's often followed by a pursing of lips a little smile and then an attack or come back at you and you see it here she does exactly that she has her hands tightly gripping in the beginning where her fingers are closely drawn together it's no longer this relaxed thing they're very tight she does that big deflective smile she has that in common with joe they do that big deflective smile to get away and then she starts oversized movements to me oversized movements typically are posturing to make you larger and more threatening and so it tells you that something's going on in her head then she moves from disarming to actually going in for the attack and she makes real on eye contact with him and does that deniro smile again that kind of awkward smile where the lower face is doing one thing in the uppers doing another her hands closed you've both covered she's covering her throat and as the godfather navarro says anytime you touch your neck it's a threat and it's defense she's covering super sternal notch or those other pieces then her lips purse full bore you see that switching back and forth and i agree with you both i think she's trying to contain some information here when he says the the um the other piece to notice is her chin drops behind her hands and starts to lower to protect her throat even in the second stage of that protection and then finally when he says cherish the supreme court she her eyes drop down into her right and her respiration is up she's not happy that's what i see cool mark you want to bring us home on this one yeah lovely so one of the things i train politicians in is not only how to take the stress so stress testing them it's how not to celebrate too much either because the moment you get a win and you start celebrating you leave yourself over open for destabilization this is what happens to harris here she's so up her center of gravity is so up and and and pence starts delivering his attack and controlling it down the camera she i think realizes this absolutely she goes for that protection of the super sternal notch she misses she actually misses it and has to re-stabilize herself so we know she's completely unbalanced at this point i think she tries to protect the idea of this is a barrier by trying to do a bit of face framing by trying to go you know look at look at this you know look how good this is try trying to show some good genetic characteristics there is again this element of flirt gesture there in order to win back the situation okay this is not about any sexual attraction this is just about going look this looks very powerful and that's what i think she's trying to do protect herself and go look at how powerful this is to win back the the audience i think she realizes he's now got the ball and he's running with it hard and there's no way she's getting this back right now and so we see uh i think lip suppression we see the tongue going around the the mouth and i think that's she wants to do a tongue out gesture to show her distaste for this but she suppresses that and holds that back i think we then see anger in her i think she is really angry about how this turned out what a what a beautiful succession of plays happening there from from pence being really sad about how it's worked out for him to getting it back again to her being angry about it right now it's just so what have we covered just a few minutes there and and this thing is all over the place the interplay that's going on here is is is majestic at this point i think what's great is in the presidential debate you don't see anything this intricate this lively there's just too much else too much shouting too much argument going on to see the beauty of what's happening between the two here really is uh fantastic to watch as far as i'm concerned and that's what i got on that one chase you got something she was saying yeah and greg to your point about women being together and doing the the i'm just a girl gesture knowing that you coined that phrase probably 15 20 years ago one great place you can see this is watching an episode of the bachelor if you do love that show all of these women piled into this mansion living room who don't get along with each other you'll see it and i think every single episode that i've ever seen you'll see that you'll see that behavior you know you almost could call it not violence but you could almost call it pre-conflict maneuver and then that face it almost always follows in succession and you know i've worked in lots of corporations where they're predominantly men or they're a lot of women and when that when that thing happens at the table i'm always sitting going okay let's see who she's focused on yeah because something's coming i just saw mark do it and that's what i call the i'm just a boy gesture yeah yeah like you said i did this i'm just a boy you know look here's what i'd say to all of that is is that you know we've mentioned juvenile behaviors quite a lot really from from both of the parties here now where did they learn first learn their debating they learnt it as kids and so we should absolutely expect when they're hot into debating that we're gonna get some child-like behaviors from them when you round a boardroom table where did we first learn to gain power to argue with people we learnt it around the family table so we need to expect around a boardroom table you're going to get some juvenile behaviors around that so so when we mention juvenile we're not saying hey this person is childish look we're seeing some instincts and very early behaviors from this person that they're not able to suppress at this point and so for people like us it's kind of exciting to see that because we're going there under stress and pressure now they're leaking some of the earliest behaviors that they they learn juvenile behaviors like you know a little history a little more that's somebody who knows they've got somebody on the ropes and they're gonna kick them a little bit more before they even go in for the the attack and again in politics that's a classic you have to train politicians when the opponent is down leave them down you don't have to go in and kick them some more they're already you know down down enough but but these uh early behaviors easily come out in these situations greg we've got something there yeah mark i was just going to add i work in business and where i get most information is not sitting across the table talking to someone it's get up go to the kitchen get a cup of coffee it's human nature all the stuff that we are all preying on all the stuff we use is all human nature and it's all all of us these are things that you learn at a very young age not just the body language but the behavior piece is the reason we're behavior people more than body language people i say body language is what brought me to the dance i really want to know why that's really my big driver and i think all four of us would say that yeah so chase you had an idea or what were you talking about yeah so if i'm we know what mark does everybody watching knows what mark does but if if all of us were coaching the candidates what what is a few pieces of advice you would give them this is the cheapest services that any of us will ever provide but but how would you coach them moving forward in the debates well i'll go first and say don't let them chew gum after that i'd say it's so do you want to kind of a cross between the both of them you know because they're they're with pence he's very stoic he's very he's got that alpha thing going on but when you look over at harris man she's coming on strong with those she's framing herself very well she's she looks really good she's pretty she's got all that going on so her everything he says is really clear everything she says is really clear the addiction is right on the money so that i have no complaints with that except when it comes to what mark was talking about juvenile behaviors stay away from those because you automatically when you start seeing that that snarky you know approach to things and you go oh no matter what side you're on you go oh man i don't want to i wish that didn't happen because you have to back that if you're on that side you'll say yeah i'm all about that and so that suggests it denotes it indicates that you might be that kind of person as well you know so as far as that goes i think she did a great job i think he did a great job as well so that's that's what i got we'll leave mark for last greg what do you got yeah so i think if i were coaching pence i would say be a little more demonstrative move your hands a little more when he's on and really on and passionate his hands did come up but he has a little bit of a nice prince he's a little bit of a stoic kind of a standing off at a distance he's trying to drive home the one key deliverable here but he has to be careful that he doesn't come across as not passionate that's the piece i would say more illustrators more eye contact more moving your head but that isn't his style it's something he's gotten this far with both of these people and they're you know they're not significantly different in age have created careers and made their way to here so we're coaching them to do something that is counter to who they are that made them successful which is mark i would imagine always the toughest part and then for harris she's very demonstrative has big sweeping body language and she's the consummate prosecutor she controls conversation with her with her face and those kinds of things i think they appeal to their base based on those two pieces as well so we have to be careful and then finally when you get down to where you're trying to force someone to answer a very complex question this is kind of like having a girlfriend and a wife and you're asked and you're trying to talk to both of them at the same time there's no good answer you have to dance the dance and i think seeing both of them under stress is the reason we picked these videos you can see that pence thinks he has the upper hand and suddenly harris takes it from him and then he turns back to her and puts her back on and i think they were poised i would say try to remember if you're going for the other side you need to be more like the other side so if you're going for a very stoic group you need to calm down if you're going for a very passionate group you need to plus up and remember they're vice presidential candidates that's what i mark has three planes he covers on those not that very subject chase what do you got so i i would give the advice to to harris and i would say it's okay to be serious and measured it's okay to be still if there's one thing fear does it speeds up our behaviors and i would give her the advice if you're on the debate stage or ever in front of the public eye never move faster than you would if you were in a swimming pool that should be your maximum speed to create trust because those people's brains who are watching you are are unconsciously reading your behavior we've been doing it for millions of years before language existed and for for pence and actually for both of them it's okay to be animated and you have to win over the crowd people saying our interest or our attention is shifting and getting smaller our attention span is getting smaller i don't believe that what i think is our interest level is getting smaller that's why we we can only pay attention to a couple things at work but we can still watch nine seasons of game of thrones over the course of two days so the attention span is there it's the interest that's lacking so harris pence you're both competing with the brain that's used to instagram and facebook the the first tenth of a second that a video is not interesting those people are used to sl flipping right up and it's quick to lose them so for especially for pence there's some phrases called focus phrases which make us humans start paying attention that's that's when people say things like that what i just said when i'm leading you up to something and the secret to that is there's another one the scary part of that is there's another one and here's what's what it all comes down to those phrases like that generate more focus he has to do more to generate more focus and for both candidates i would say it's very helpful to do very tiny gestures if i'm saying distrustful i might very subtly point towards that side of the stage or i'm saying and some people may decide not to vote for somebody i'm going to gesture towards that side of the stage or if i say the word election or if i say the word vice president i'm going to be very subtle gesture towards myself not pointing but just kind of a subtle gesture just a couple of things that i would give them right off the bat mark yeah lovely so first of all look uh if you agree with the ideology of the one side then you're most likely very happy with what they did if you're with the ideology of the other side you're most likely very happy with what they did all we're ever concerned with in these situations is who might change their mind about this or who might be activated into voting for the first time or might be you know activated staying at home and not doing anything this time so what i don't know at the moment is like what what they need to get other than their base what you saw from them is a performance that will absolutely keep their base it's not going to change anybody's minds around who who had got their minds set so what would i do you know given that i i don't know who they're really trying to speak to well i think it's a combination of what we've we've heard there very much you need to play to the to the opposite uh for pence i imagine there's something there that could surprise us and delight us that we weren't expecting so we get that stoic nature from him and then at some point during one of these debates he does something where we go you know what i didn't expect that from him and it and it speaks to the to the opposite side for just long enough that we go you know what i would i kind of would consider him strangely but it's got to be a bit of a surprise and and that's not surprise is not his speciality you know you get you get what you always get with him um with with harris uh i would really want to work with her on just getting her to control her celebration a little bit more her delight at winning just so she's not stay destabilized so much because i think those moments where she's destabilized we see a succession of of facial gestures which tell us about her disappointment and our anger around that and of course the opponent's success and i think we look at that potentially if we're in a swing and we go am i really in for the person who got disappointed by their loss or or went from the high to the low because you get a tragedy there you get somebody who is celebrating one moment and they're deep in anger the next and and we're not trying to vote for a tragedy at all so that's where i'd go with this but you know certainly what we saw there was was was quite a match and quite a dance going on with two people who really do know what they're doing from two very different backgrounds who take those skills and bring them into this arena and do a really incredible uh job of it you know so so great to watch uh thanks for joining in and watching with us on that yeah excellent dang mark that was great i figured you could do the uh three planes senator harrison susan are voting right now they'd like to know if you and joe biden are going to pack the supreme court if you don't get your way in this nomination let's talk about that you once again gave a non-answer joe biden gave anonymous trying to answer you american people deserve a straight answer and and if you haven't figured it out yet the straight answer is they are going to pack the supreme court if they somehow win this election men and women i got to tell you people across this country if you cherish our supreme court if you cherish the separation of powers you need to reject the biden harris ticket come november the 3rd re-elect president donald trump and we'll stand by that separation powers in a nine seat supreme court anyway it was cool to me it's kind of boring from a distance oh yeah yeah well if you don't know what you're looking for that's a man it's a dang a snooze fest but in our case it was like wow the big heavyweights you know thumping each other around on the last one yeah yeah you know there's nothing going on whereas actually that there's more interesting stuff going on i think well kevin wouldn't have stuck around you know exactly what and guys when we're getting ready for a video for you we all upload everything into a little dropbox file and sometimes scott gets it ready sometimes mark gets all the videos ready i've i can count maybe on one hand but it's been several times we've uploaded videos and then i go in there and i put it on the ipad on the kitchen counter and i'm kind of glancing at it a few times i'm like what are they thinking this is just boring there's nothing here and then i watch it a second time and i'm like oh i know exactly why we why don't we grab this piece here that's all greg so i'm always looking for that i'm looking for one that you know anybody can look and see you guys screaming at each other but when it's subtle and there's nuanced between the two people i i love those yeah that's what we deal with mostly we don't see somebody coming oh because that's obvious but yeah greg's great at finding those things so just so you know that's who we've assigned that's what greg does is he goes out and finds the videos we watch we talk about a subject and go all right sounds good to me [Music] do what you see some of the ones i don't choose yeah that's uh people do have a lot of them yeah so all right well uh thanks for watching this time and listen you you probably want to subscribe if you do go ahead and hit the subscribe button hit that little bell because that lets you know we have another video coming out and if we're all good i guess we'll see everybody next time yeah yeah see you next time bye now [Music] all right here comes chase what can we be doing i'm cleaning my glasses i don't know what else yeah let's do that let's pretend we're talking so mark you act like you're telling a joke or something or we'll just what without [Music] i can hear you uh you

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 132,953

Keywords: vice president debate, kamala harris, mike pence, vice presidential debate, vice president, vp debate, debate, donald trump, 2020 election, pence harris debate, pence debate, harris debate, election, susan page, us election 2020, pence harris, vp debate 2020, vice presidential debate 2020, mike pence kamala harris debate, mike pence fly, kamala harris debate, salt lake city, 2020 vice presidential debate, body language, behavior panel, behavior, profiler, kamala pence debate

Id: mxwCmx6KALo

Length: 60min 33sec (3633 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 15 2020