Golden Saints & Dark Seducers - The Ladies of the Shivering Isles | The Elder Scrolls Podcast #15

[Music] what is up ladies and gentlemen welcome back to fudge muppet i'm scott here with michael and drew as always for the elder scrolls podcast today we are talking all about a little bit more of a niche topic but the oriole and maskin otherwise known as the golden saints and dark seduces to lesser daedra very well associated with shivering isles and share gorath but there is more to them than they than seems so which one of you boys wants to start us off all right well basically uh as far as the shivering isles incarnations go or the examples go they're basically the gods they've been seen at other points in the timeline and different examples but just to kind of give you the mainstream view of them they're basically the guards of either side of shaw gorath's realm so you've got the golden saints of mania the dark seduces of dementia and they basically function to put law breakers in their place and keep the cities safe and so on um they're involved in different events within the realm and and different kind of i guess rituals for lack of better words such as um helping you in oblivion get the flame of agnon to relight the great torch and they both kind of compete for the mad god's favor um they want to be the the favorite kid basically of cher gorath however they are also found outside of the isles you can find them as just a generic enemy in morrowind you can summon them in morrowind in elder scrolls online we saw both of them doing various things and in battle spire the mazkin or the dark seducers were there as well looking slightly different but they were there and uh they have distinct personalities and both of them also have a system by which the females are superior and the males are kind of looked down at as weak yeah because like when you played like the shivering isles if you look at it's kind of like i'm pretty sure they're even shorter the male versions of them and there's only like i swear there's only one in the game that appears when you're defending um oh my goodness i forgot the name outside of new shield in the in the gate before what's the area called again the fringe the fringe yeah what is that what the town is called as well password password that's it so you're defending password from um from yeah the united states folks yeah but there's this one male 1 and i remember seeing you can see the golden saint version or the seducer depending on who you pick but the seducer one it's almost like this weird like kind of like v cut like thing armor underneath their pecs it's kind of like yeah it looks a little gimpy but i feel like it's on bread for the rest of the dark seducer attire yeah all of them the golden saints the dark seduces they're always kind of scantily clad less so in elder scrolls online i'm not the biggest fan i will say of the armors in the older scrolls online yeah they're not they're not terrible like they're cool armors kind of in their own right no they are like if you saw it on their own if you had nothing to compare it to it's not a it's not bad i mean to be honest i can't do the shivering aisles justice and i don't like the dark seducers helmet particularly in elder scrolls online it's a bit like big almost like like falmer looking kind of eso armor as a whole generally to me doesn't look as good like even when you say oh that's a cool concept there it could be executed better in a more in a realistic looking style it can be a little bit more crazy like across the board a little bit to warcraft for my taste but yeah they don't quite look so daedric i think in the usa it just looks more like elaborate armor making rather than being daedric entities and like the idea that females are so much stronger it's like with the males it pretty much seems like you've got your like your stereotypical female armor in old school fantasy but just thrown on a dude so it's like that's how little fort they get spared for them yeah well let's um i reckon we'll we'll break it up a bit we'll talk about the golden saints first then the dark seduces and then we'll kind of connect it all and we can talk about some of their like you know speculated origins and stuff like that so we'll start off with the golden saints which is a term given to them for their beautiful and interesting looking appearance by mortals of tamriel but their sort of more accurate name is the oriole and they also have cat eyes yeah aesthetically which don't seem another thing doesn't seem to be present in elder scrolls online at least from from it doesn't look like it but i can see they look more normal but yeah golden skin the cat eye so imagine which are eyes it looks like that they're sort of seem to be modeled off sort of uh elven aesthetics and so on you know combined with their avian sort of looking armor and it's just very they have a real regal saintly looking appearance but um what's interesting and you mention this briefly but about their personality they're quite despite their benevolence they kind of in terms of appearance they're quite arrogant and proud and they kind of really don't like the the mortal races they see themselves above them and it's just an interesting once again i really like contrast but it's an interesting thing to to see that it's kind of like the uh what would you call it the the negative aspects of being like like a saint or a godly kind of thing but you're above everyone else it's kind of uh they're incredibly egotistical it's a bit of a theme with daedra that they're kind of in some ways mimicries of mortals um and they almost seem like a like a a caricature of how you imagine arrogant snobbish high elves hmm yeah for sure and the other thing that's interesting about them is that they it doesn't say explicitly that they're manic but with them chosen as kind of the gods and kind of rulers in a way of mania besides shea gorath like they have higher hierarchy than everyone else yeah and the duke really um but they like the bright colors at least that's what shay gorath says yeah he says when i think when you get the ability to summon them he's like says they like mania they love the bright colors or something like that which i find interesting yeah it fits because about the dark seduces he says ah they like the pain lack of dementia like they're they're a bit uh masochistic yeah well there's some interesting so we can briefly talk about like dark seduces they kind of almost look dark elven in appearance like the the grayish sort of skin but they're a little bit different and then they've got their armor and so on but they've been said to be like you were just saying um uh masochistic kind of which you know we can look into that in a second but um also they're generally seen as in contrast to the golden saints is quite patient with mortals and willing to like to talk and a bit more nice essentially i guess you kind of need those to be a seducer like yeah you don't want to be quiet and they don't come across as like seductive per se they just come across as polite and if you were to look at them in in contrast and this is a big assumption right but you could say perhaps the golden saints are more domineering like if you want to be ugly or like inflicting pain like if you were to play on that sadomasochism kind of thing if you do the two halves of the mind like giving pain taking pain and you have the dark seduces being masochistic you you could you could see how a sadistic sort of thing would fit the traits of proud arrogant and hating lesser races and stuff like that and then you know smiting them with their glory kind of thing especially when you look at that i think it's legends art that you put in the chat yeah yeah it almost looks like holding like a like a paddle almost place but but actually like the way the way it's a mace right yeah the way that mace is held yeah then you get a seducer who's got a fire whip as well so maybe they just use it on themselves yeah that's true yeah but so like well while we mention that we can just sort of segue into there are some like notable characters among them and one of them is starter who's a very notable um she's the golden saint commander and she's actually showed up in morrowind uh oblivion and eso now you'll see on wikis and stuff they they include as the creation club stuff like there's a creation club dlc called um saints and seducers and that adds them into the stuff and that adds their own bit of law we we can talk about these things but i don't feel it's necessarily canon like that kind of i get the vibe from some wikis and so on just because there are things like you know christmas themed things in in creation club or dwemer mud crabs or like zombie apocalypse i don't think it necessarily makes it canon the other thing is it kind of uh at least to me contradicts the already established law as well like for example when you look at something like the amber found in the shivering isles right yeah it didn't say you cannot get this anywhere else in the elder scrolls universe but it was at least to me pretty implied that this is a special type of amber from the shivering isles that's produced by the special trees in the shivering isles and the root systems that kind of push their way underground and as they push their way underground breaking through like rock and dirt and all these like um materials they can become kind of like split or broken and this amber this kind of sap inside can leak out like the idea is that you can't just walk up to one of these trees with a pickaxe or a sword and put a hole in it and start taking out the amber like and to me at least yeah it was kind of implied that that's why you can make amber armor and weapons in the shivering aisles with these by the way master secrets from this master shivering isles smith who was given the knowledge of how to do this by like their master and so on and so then the fact that you can just get amber in um skyrim creation club and make amber armor and that's where it come comes down to it is a mod so like it might be well done but it's not necessarily perfect in all of its like application of everything and that's why i don't think it is can i still treat them as mods because that's what creation club is it's like paid mods they're just licensed through bethesda but i don't know i find it similar with eso there's a lot of stuff that is more of just like a reference to the law so for example you i'm fairly sure you can get a mount in eso that's like a it's the wild hunt the bosmary wild hunt which is something that's supposed to be you know a great catastrophe that happens once in a very very rare blue moon um yet you can just have a mount that is like a manifestation of the wild hunt it's like these are cool references to the law but sometimes it just doesn't work yeah it's kind of like you get a whole bunch of skins on the mount like you get like storm atronach horse like um wild hunt wild hunt guar oh like all this stuff it's it's the it's the it's the separation you've got to do between like what is sort of like lore and then what he's just made for a game like it is an mmo like if i think to elder scrolls like oh what does what does this city in the elder scrolls what does mournhold look like to me in my head like i imagine a full city you've done right like that looks like a real city i don't imagine like all these people running around with like colorful mounts and going yes which quest today i'm gonna do my dailies or whatever the hell they're doing you know or yeah look what they look what i bought the crown store like that's you know so yeah so you got to separate the game elements exactly and in the most basic way you could almost just say like game mechanics you don't look at the land of skyrim and go everyone has a stamina bar and once they run out they can't do or like in oblivion be a better example if you get too much stamina drained you fall over it's like it's a gameplay mechanic and i know you know mounts arguably are there in the game as physical things but come on we all know it's not canon yeah i know it falls back on that but just like come on yeah we know well so let's um we'll bring it to back to the to the golden saints so we we established that in both of the golden saints and dark seduces they are matriarchal and the males are lesser and even seen they even see themselves as lesser compared to the females um could i just interject here on that topic as well before we go over it i remember drew made a video about the golden saints and you were talking about how perhaps uh you know because daedra is kind of um mata i guess we'll just say soul for lack of better words for now kind of goes back to be born again that the males could actually just be ones that didn't prove themselves or ones that were less valiant so the idea is that like it's just speculation perhaps you could be put into the male inferior form uh depending on the actions you had in that last cycle yeah well like no matter how similar they may look their daedra are just a completely different beast all together to like to our rules of biology so well i imagine we'll talk a lot about um the wells in in burluck and um what's the other place called pinnacle rock pinnacle rock that's the one um so like the chaotic creation that they come from and like it it can have a role in not only that you know their structure of society but also their identity like i've i've got a fairly strong theory that they kind of developed a very distinct identity in the shivering isles that isn't really seen in the same race elsewhere which will be something we'll talk about well i mean you know let's just go into it then i guess like so there's a one piece that i think that's good to pre-face this all with because there's conventional sort of ideas that implied by the the line like by um from shagra are saying by oh sorry was it from a dark seducer about oh what is it so yeah so basically they have their wellspring uh in in the shivering isles of pinnacle rock and the dark seducers can say shea gorath is our lord ruler of the shivering isles but then it is by his whim that the mass can walk and we serve our master to the dearth yeah so whether he actually creates them or they just use the workings of pinnacle rock to enter the realm from another realm using this as one of many wellsprings perhaps that they have in other places we don't know but at least that sentence implies so this is um there is a thing on the imperial library which is it's a post from a forum of on the bethesda forums in 2007. it's called interview with two denizens of the shivering isles and it's in an interview with haskell and dice and haskell is the chamberlain of cher gorath and dyas the chamberlain of um gigalac um 2007. yeah so the interviewees of this interview were being played by kurt coleman one of the designers and bruce nesmith another one from bethesda softworks so when the one quote that so it's basically fans asking questions and they're they're answering in um in character like they do in those um the eso ones the law master archive ones so so it would be like so you know you can take this as a reasonable amount of canon i sort of think but but anyway let's have a listen so this is the question so guys how school for a long time it was assumed that the dark seducers were minions of your lord's un-brother meyron's dagon however we find them here in the isles dutifully guarding the lands of dementia and they seem to have been doing so for a long time already have the loyalties of the seducers always been this divided or has the mad gods charisma persuaded a few of these fine specimens to work in his service now this is haskell's reply he says how typical you mortals love to take a pebble of information and construct entire realms of conjecture upon it your law of those disparate beings that you lump together as daedra is based on nothing lies and half truths told by traitors rebels miscontents and weaklings who have had the misfortune to become involved with mortals or with mehrun's dagon do not speak his name to me again the master of scum the pawn of every prince of true power the dupe of every schemer in the 19 voids do you think you know anything of the politics factions feuds vendettas wars of oblivion do you think oblivion such a simple place that the tale of loyalties of a great people such as the masking could be encompassed in a brief tale uh excuse me i seem to become rather excessive i'm usually better at controlling myself forgive me pray continue with uh pray continue with this most enthroned conversation anyway all of that essentially serves to sort of cast some doubt on the idea that it is simple as like oh choker i've just made them and in the same way that the daedra look you can you can divvy up the description of made as much as you want but they don't make in the same way that the aedra um gave part of their own beings to basically create of their own power to make other souls sort of like derivatives of themselves um so the dangerous sort of uh corrupt and like and and manipulate but that that that's such a broad um realm of possibilities anyway like you can see as as with the daedra but um yes so that so that's a nice preface to sort of establish that obviously haskell and people within the realm of data sort of know that it's more complicated than just that i find it i find it really cool as well how he calls uh the masking great a great people like there's like a lot of respect there for this race like just like a tamrielic race might have for another one well if you throw in the idea if you do buy into the mythic dawn commentaries and that tamriel and mundus is just another plane of oblivion it was lorkhan's plane of oblivion but they betrayed him that they had betrayed him and so on it kind of like you can kind of really envision the other oblivion infinite realms of oblivion as like you know there's the people of all the different realms just as the same as this the people of of tamriel why are they also obsessed with tamriel then but but you only see it seems they're obsessed but you don't see all the ongoings of everything else behind it that's why i like when you get little like you know shivering arms get bits of um society and civilization in these daedric realms but i guess so so who wants to take someone else to talk about my theory on on all of this and the reason why they seem to have loyalties to shay agora is like when i think about chaotic creation so it's like it's just unrefined chaos in in molag bal's realm you see it as like pools of azure plasm is what it's called and basically in chaos if you know if a daedra is killed they're reborn from this chaos and it's like they return to the void and then come back and there's a lot of it's very messy basically so when i think of shea gorov kind of like essentially being a patron or a father to them it's like he provided them these secure means of being reproduced essentially like by giving them these wellsprings where they can be reborn they've kind of the ones who come back here developed a very specific identity that aligns with him and his realm that's how i so that that to me explains why you see seducers and dark seducers prior to the shivering isles dlc that seem nothing like the dark seduces in the isles it's sort of like directing giving them a purpose rather it's kind of like uh creating a societal structure almost in the magical tools to direct direct the pre-existing race rather than creating the race so yeah yeah it's like having a you know in the real world having a race or a culture that is vastly different to their own people because they were born into a different society you know like says people born in america versus people born in britain or something like that they kind of become completely isolated even though they're born from the same stock or whatever yeah yeah there's some quotes as well actually both the commanders of either the golden saints or the dark seducers will say brelk or pinnacle rock was given to us by our lord share gorath as a sanctuary and a place of restoration and then if you talk about the wellspring it they say the darkness is a frightening place even to us and so our lord has given us this beacon allied to guide us back to him and then you can also hear the dialogue from other saints and seducers the waters of oblivion lead us to the wellspring where lord share gorath has given us a place to return to his service so like you're saying it's not necessarily like 100 that he like created them and that's like their origin story it kind of sounds like you know he guides them back to his realm provides them with these places of restoration and because this is a place for them to come back into form a similar way to think about it is how you sort of have the dramora and there's clans of dramora but that will be found in different realms and serving different princes or or scams or ograms or twilights like even though some have more heavy associations such as the winged twilights with azura you still find twilights with others or for example boethiah's hungers pretty sure it was boethiah that created the hunger supposedly or is most associated with but you find them in the shivering isles yeah so it's that sort of you know the daedra as all of those lesser daedra kind of have a bit more autonomy to seek their masters and it can get really confusing because if you take the shivering isles for example the hungers really look like they belong there i mean if you go and explore that place besides the fact that there's plenty of them the uh the zealots can summon them um what's the other class in the game there's the zealots and then the heretics the heretics yeah i'm pretty sure it's the zealots one of them summons them and then most of all they're built into the architecture so you will find statues of hungers you know with their mouths and heads pointing out off the edge of shivering isles ruins you will find traps set up in these you know kind of ancient looking halls that shoot a magical damaging blast from the mouth coming from the shape of a hunger so you can understand the confusion that people really have about not just uh golden saints and dark seducers but any of the daedra and where they're from and what their origins are because they they seem really well and truly spread out and i guess we could talk about that now uh other examples of where the golden saints and yeah juices have been before just to add some extra clarification i think it's helpful that a lot of people when they typically think of gods and then and or super powerful beings they believe they they see it as the sort of the aedric pathway which is like god at the top gave up their powers created less powerful beings and less and less and less till they resort to breeding so it's all derivative derivative of you have god creator and then the things that come whereas all of the daedric princes and stuff supposedly for the most part um there's variations but sort of have just sort of always been there and arguably a lot of the lesser daedra as well like for example like dramora aren't necessarily a derivative of mehrunes dagon or anything they're just serving melrose dagon they themselves though were formed from the chaotic creation that just came from the existence that is padme and stuff like that so so really if you you kind of there's a lot more individuality amongst the daedra and then you have like sort of demi princes because really daedric prince just means the most powerful that runs a realm of oblivion and arguably at times they're not even necessarily daedric princes because they're like meridia who was a magna gee that just sort of rocked up and took the colored rooms for herself and carved out her own thing of oblivion so then she becomes a daedric prince but do you know what i mean so it's a lot of these terms like to prefer people to understand like daedra and adrian all of these terms are from a mortal's point of view and they're rather arbitrary to define things like literally all daedra and atria means it means our ancestor or not our ancestor so it's you know that dichotomy it's not a uh the most uh descriptive definition it's very loose you know 100 and it's all from an elven view anyway aedra daedra is a is a elven dichotomy of of things but they've you know usually the the magical types so they've done the most research and all that kind of thing and established a lot of it anyway back to uh back to the golden saints i did want to add in there there is this little story which kind of puts them almost in a caring light really uh there's a character called malker valos from the elder scrolls online and malcolm was born as an only child and malcolm's mother was a wizard right and maros was the name of the mother summoned a golden saint oh sorry it's father it says his anyway meros summoned the golden saint to protect and care for his son malcolm was taken to the shivering isles and raised among the golden saints um yeah so that's pretty cool after marist was killed in a mages duel and then he learnt the principles of honor and duty which seemed to be at least a big part of being a golden saint as egotistical as they are it's a cool backstory like that was like a video raised by a day but like i wonder how much of that um the fact that he was razorson is dependent that you know when when uh maro summoned a golden saint to protect him it was sort of like in the same way that it's not necessary when daedra and that are summoned it's not necessarily you know it's it's kind of against their will like you're kind of just pulling them it's like oh fight for me you're kind of controlling them in that same way raise my child yeah they're likely to kill your child depending on what danger it is but if you're gonna go down the road that um they're kind of like that golden saint was forced into it by the father then it'd have to be a very powerful summons to maintain control over this daedra for so long so it seems like they've yeah so it seems really like like we said the commitment like we said too the daedra as they seem seem to be more individual than a lot of the time they're given credit for so it could just be a golden state that was particularly nice or maybe respected the father or mother a lot and therefore did it as a big favor um you know despite their sort of generalization that is that they're arrogant and proud which might be true most of the time but you know exceptions just plus they rule over mania you know which is kind of there's multiple sides to their personalities by by definition yeah which michael alluded at before it's a you know they can be arrogant but they look one way and they act a different way and you know says all that i feel like to it it does kind of fit i guess like in the way that they're like proud and arrogant the way that like i feel like a lot of that could connect a bit to sort of the beauty and the like they were described as they like all of the colors and stuff of mania and so on they can kind of see it as a bit of a beautiful place beautiful yeah for sure anyway speaking of them as individuals you've got all the examples of the masking and them serving different uh people throughout history so in battle spire they were helping mehrunes dagon after betraying nocturnal which means they were helping nocturnal and in her service and then also in then in the service of dagon and uh back then they definitely had a more um i guess not their dark purple skin tone you know a more like regular one and looked more just like regular you know they just looked more regular like humanoid they didn't look like dark elf based or anything like yeah and they had their special outfits and they had wings as well that they could spring out well actually it's interesting yeah well it's interesting it's interesting if you look at daggerfall they're called daedra seducer in battle spire there's a seducer which is just like a scantily clad woman and then there's dark seducer which is a scantily clad woman with wings yeah that's it and then mehrunes dagon actually took one as his lover or paramore interesting word and um she wielded i believe the sword of the moon reaver which interestingly like that point it's something else that just kind of i guess your the term humanizes them or gives them more individuality is when you kind of see that mairen's dagon has a paramore and takes on you know just a lesser deidre and there's similar stories with um you know molag bal having a daughter and and stuff like that they do kind of still have like somewhat mortal relationships at times and so on which kind of just it kind of demystifies them a little bit you know spice things up a bit you know as eternal beings it was like i'll try this human thing for 10 years and then very brief back to being i won't touch not too long but it's like it's it's the same idea kind of like with clavicus file being a super social being that's why he split part of his power and gave some to create sort of barbers as a distinct entity so he could be social for all of life and have someone to talk with and man yeah exactly so but but that's kind of a very like human seeming trait like they're not all as deep and esoteric as hermes more a big squid of knowledge kind of thing you know like but uh yeah so dark seduces um yeah they were in daggerfall and battle spy continue with your story and they were also in the elder scrolls online helping molag bao um with the plain meld and stuff like that there was even a place uh called the manor of revelry where there was masking sisters who would honeypot their guests by giving them a luxurious experience and feeding them and who knows what else and basically pampering them and fattening them up to lower their guards so that they can be consumed and there's two as for some of the instances in daggerfall the daedric quest for malacath involves a masking who betrayed malacath um and because he was gift mad the masculine was gifted power by malacath and then went off and betrayed him and then you're basically sent to hunt down this mask and you kill her and then you get volundrung in return and there's also another sort of one where you um you're tricked by an orc warlord into taking a daedric lodestone from a masculine and a lodestone's like a kind of like a magnetic stone that they can use it in like um navigation purposes and stuff like that but but yeah you kind of see there like there's masculine even being associated with malacath and stuff or like working with you you see them kind of haven't the oriole even been associated with the colored rooms the aurorans yeah yeah so it seems like for both there there's there is evidence there to suggest the potential that shay agora has decided you know he wants two distinct groups to to rule these the two sections of his province province his realm and he's kind of like yeah like the seducers there's potential there because the descriptions of the dark seduces we were just giving is enough is isn't really anything like the dark seduces we see in the shivering isles and there's potentials that the the orioles do originate from the same place as the aurorans this is probably pure cannon there's no necessarily evidence for it but i'd pure cannon sorry a head cannon all the same cannon head counter no um the i like the idea that the dark seduces kind of could spring wings at any moment like it is a trait that the mouse can trait but they just don't like all you don't see in game cause the game limitations but i like the idea that it is part of their sort of thing that they do have wings that are just hidden and not sprung that is interesting though about the golden saints right like brelax their most sacred location it's in the shivering isles it has their wealth spring there but one of them does say that if brelk were to fall like this is quote it would be the end for my kind so that almost that kind of puts a spanner in the works because it sounds like if the order win the golden saints have just gone i mean it depends how far you like my kind you can experience i see that yeah because you can expand that more to like just her kind which are the ones that are in shivering aisles of the umbrella that kind of or perhaps perhaps most of them are in the shivering aisles and there would only be i don't know how it works with them coming back from the waters of oblivion and all this but if they all died and their wellspring in the shivering isles died perhaps the well springs in other places that may exist are like weaker or only facilitate less numbers of golden saints it gets weird because you have to think how daedra work well because the general idea um with the danger is that they're sort of unlimited like a daedric soul soul kind of thing is that they they enter the void but then there's sort of chaotic creation kind of comes around them and forms a morpher type and they come back so they generally have a tendency to sort of reform to similar things so sort of like because i i guess they kind of have to be because you need that there's something to define the races or so on so this is what makes a masculine or or a dramora or zivili or etc but do you think that but with the wellspring corrupted by the order or destroyed that perhaps they would be trapped perhaps in that process in the process they could become trapped and unable to return in the same numbers because you could imagine and it could just be and i like the idea that it could just be a cultural thing as in it's the end of our kind here at you know the shivering isles with our traditions and our rituals and our knowledge of all these um different people you know with the flame of agnon and all of that there's obviously some kind of a culture there that's unique to the isles and those specific golden saints but i do wonder what would happen to their souls if it's just an odd way to put it you know i feel like their souls all they're called vestiges so like as as their version of a soul it's like it's it's always there in the void to be kind of i think it's almost like to be tapped by a daedric prince because the daedric prince can can you know choose a a vessel to put these vestiges in or kind of like create a mimicry of something and and turn it into that so when i if i hear that quote about um the golden saints dying out it's essentially like if they were all to disappear shea gorifs like his creation or his design i'd say that it no longer it's no longer there but the vestiges the souls are still in the void ready to return in some form or another right so it's kind of like deleting someone's 3d blueprint that they downloaded off and then turning their internet off and then basically after they can use this like use their 3d printer still but uh they're not allowed to make what they're making before but you also you never know as well because the golden saints they could it could be quite literal for the golden saints and then maybe some of them went off to meridian colored rooms or so on but it could be they all originate in shivering isles as opposed to but not the case for the dark seduces the dark seducers were another they're another deal that's because they thought before i mean that's a yeah so that's a pretty sound one as well nobody knows for sure nobody knows for sure as haskell says you think you can understand we're too crazy yeah we're perfect he personally attacks us it's like you immortals take this castle of information and extrapolate it and make an entire career out of it and like i don't want to go on too deep of a tangent but scott when you mentioned before about the the possibility that uh mundus is just lorkhan's plane of oblivion and people wonder about the connection between the hist and the daedra and oblivion but if you think about it the same way we talk about this azure plasm this chaotic creation the hist have their ambiplasm you know their his sap which is kind of like it's powerful in a way that seems really similar to the chaotic creation and they're like creating the argonian form out of this and it's like there's just a corrupted lizard right and they corrupted off other forms of other things they're like well let's give them wings or mammalian features or whatnot so it is kind of inherently their creation is kind of like a bit of a daedric kind of yeah and the wellspring is kind of like the like the you know singing sound and the hiss up and in the swamp and whoa this should have been in the argonians podcast yeah you never know you never know where a podcast is gonna take you huh i mean i feel like all three of us have epiphanies mid podcast you know like it's true we discover things on this podcast we did not plan to talk about i think like even as much as a service to you guys listening and like you know you guys enjoy just listening to podcast and law it actually helps us a lot of the time because you you're structuring and talking about your points in different ways and backing and forthing and then all of a sudden you just have these epiphanies and they're like oh well that makes sense or something it's something you wouldn't have necessarily come to if you weren't having this kind of conversation already so and they are think of cool videos to write yeah exactly exactly yeah but um what else is there to talk about with the golden saints and the dark seduces i think we've hit a lot of the seduces i don't know how i can tell you the one little detail you can find a golden tooth of a golden saint in the elder scrolls online and it just interestingly mentions that it depicts an elderly man with three faces carved into the gleaming tooth you know kind of like shea gorath and like the strange door um you know yeah it's kind of like the wabber jack i also i also like that the the masking attacking battle spy when they joined dagon they all started having david presents it's just a cool like kind of it is the most like pulpy sort of thing if you can imagine like them and they're all scantily clad with these big like demon crescent weapons and stuff it's like straight out of the 80s kind of you thinking of that that image with like the green background and there's the seducer holding up the crest yeah yeah that's pretty cool yeah it looks like what a bunch of people at a rock concert think they look like [Laughter] raise the crescents to the sky yeah you know but i i think overall i think as as far as the uh the golden saints and seducers i think they're all still in the new incarnation of the shivering isles with um with champion of cyrodiil who became shergorath and it's all uh it's all fine and dandy they're just still in this that rivalry but i feel like once again that rivalry is is a very shivering isles contextual thing like i don't know if a golden state from the color colored rooms would necessarily have a rivalry with a mask and serving someone else oh for sure because they both absolutely want the the affections i guess is a weird way to put it but of cher gorath you know like when you become because you're immortal so even if you've saved cereal they're not going to treat you with much respect but when you become shayagorath they do yeah and and you can get away with like crimes type thing and like it gets it gets interesting there's some interesting post-game mechanics in the shivering aisles that a lot of people aren't aware of yeah it's kind of crap i keep forgetting that but like you became a god or he or she or whoever's character hero of kvatch became an actual god like all the daedric prince like it's pretty it's like skyrim you start as a god yeah well true kind of you know what i mean yeah yeah the dragonborn thing yeah basically from the get-go yeah but yeah i think that wraps it all up unless you two have anything to say we knew this would be a slightly shorter podcast but it's been a pretty interesting one yeah i'm only just final notice i just find that the daedra as we expand on the daedra more and more and more throughout the games um it's just interesting to see more of their like society or individuality in the same way that one it's really highlighted more so with a dramora is the one example where they really like drill down into their like interactions and so on but like even things with the winged twilight like it was molag grunder it wasn't falling in love with a frost atronach and just all kinds of things i i love the i just i just love the daedra in general and all of their take care take the daedra out of the elder scrolls universe and it gets a lot more boring i'll say that really boring they're like really intertwined with with just about everything that's super awesome there is pretty much like honestly like you know dark elves khajiit they're dependent on them like if you remove them like do you believe in crisis it's like super super crucial and that's that's why people love the daedra so much you know if you make a video about daedra it will get a lot more attention pretty much than most other video types out there and they are just so cool and by comparison like to the aedra they have actual like defined personalities they're not defined by the worshippers as much as they are themselves and they kind of yeah they're like they're characters as opposed to just you know so in summary we've taken a pebble of information and constructed entire realms of conjecture upon it as we do as we do as we love to do and one final note i guess unless you two have anything else to say is and it's just a general knowledge note but they're both of the golden saints and the dark seduces they're very hierarchical and they have ranks all of them with different names for the different ranks i won't read them because they're all gibberish essentially but you know go check do it do it to finish to finish off the video list them all really good yeah you're gonna make me do it and then we'll wrap up sure so for the golden saints we've got the or in from lowest to highest rank or the auron the auradell the ormok the ormo orig malarig pellerig and ormazzle which you just look at that and you see like um the pokemon like a reversal or whatever it's called the super revolution on that one that's what i see when i when i read it yeah and then the masking let's what are their ranks okay strict hierarchy kiss kengo kiskela kiskadrig grakendo sounds like some harry potter spells man yeah crack a drink an ought kendo that sounds like a martial so there you go everyone thank you very much for watching we really appreciate it if you want to help support this podcast we've got a link to our merch down below you can get a sick daedric artifact the coveted fudge muppet mask hoodie and yeah let us know in the comments what you want to see next follow us on twitter and we look forward to nerding out with you again very soon

Channel: FudgeMuppet

Views: 46,886

Rating: 4.9479904 out of 5

Keywords: skyrim, elder scrolls, elder scrolls podcast, fudgemuppet, golden saints, dark seducers, oblivion, sheogorath, shivering isles, daedra, daedric prince, haskill, elder scrolls lore

Id: roqwCSSglJA

Length: 43min 33sec (2613 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 18 2020