Garry Kasparov on Russia Since the End of the Cold War

welcome back to conversations I'm Bill Kristol and I'm thrilled to be joined today by garry kasparov Apsara of sorry and say my questions may not very good garry kasparov great chess champion democratic activists and thoughtful and perceptive analysts also of russian politics and American politics of world politics the last time we ended with the that was a happy ending but the world doesn't always doesn't stop with happy endings history did not have always yes always goes in seasons so that's why cold winter's coming yeah just warm people that you know we are entering another dangerous period yeah no it's a wonderful book and I want to get to that and I want to talk about what's happened over the last 25 years one of the most striking things like you mentioned this in your book leave goodness else we're also talking about Vladimir Putin and you say what people say he's a that's often said he plays chess he's very clever you know and we're just we in the West at just playing checkers do you say that's a bad that's a bad analogy that's not the right way to think about Putin no it is really bad and I know I was almost annoyed you know hearing that Putin plays chairs this was not just an Obama or other leaders of the free world they played checkers right yeah I I thought I had to defend the integrity of my game because chess is not a game for dictators for numerous reasons one it's transparent you know is this it's all information hungry unavailable so you know exactly what you have you know exactly what your opponent has okay you don't know what he or she is thinking but you definitely know what kind of resources your opponent can use to do to hurt you to to damage your here your position also chess is very much strategic game so you have to think long term dictators don't think long term dictators especially in our are in power for so long as Putin is they have to work in a on you know on the survival mode because it's all about today maybe tomorrow morning you know just everything that helps to survive is good because the moment dictator thinks long term he'll definitely know miss you know guys from his own entourage you know hating him it is bad the game that defines dictators much better it's poker because it's about Bluffs it doesn't matter whether you have a strong hand or a weak hand you can either weakened but if you if you're comfortable bluffing raising stakes and if you can read your opponent's and let's not forget Putin is not a military dictator he's not a military general he's a KGB guy and we have to give him credit he's quite you know Schrute KGB guy who could read his opponents you know he proved it many times you know delinquents you know Bush 43 was other foreign leaders that he could actually find a way of of building communication and getting exactly what he wanted and playing poker means that you know you you have to read your opponent and today put a nose that no matter what what kind of hand he has the opposition whether it's Obama or European leaders they'll fall the cards and Syria the was a classical example the this moment of Obama's infamous red line were at what Putin had a pair of five but he acted as you know as he as he had a raw flash and Obama even with the full house just folded the cards so it's very important to understand you know that is this is the dictators always operate short-term and democracies must operate long-term because it's not about you know one individual who is currently running the country whether its president or prime minister it's it's about the success of the country it's about the success of the system it's it's about pressing you know our advantages and their strategic its lasting institutions that could make the difference even when you know the president or prime minister is no longer in the office well that's what's just go right you that's not so interesting I mean but what about the problem and for the United States we are more set up to play checkers or chess maybe but not poker I mean do you think it's a problem for the for Western democracies and in combating someone like Putin he has this intrinsic advantage okay Putin hasn't come out of a blue you know so it's it's it's not just Putin that's why again in my book winter's coming I emphasized why Vladimir Putin and the enemies of the free world must be stopped because you know Putin is you may call him in a boss of bosses couple the tutti capi he's just you know like a spider in the center of this web because Putin helps other bad guys are the facts and dictators and terrorists sort of - - feel free to attack the to attack the free world because they all know that unless they unless they attack the free world unless they attack the United States states as the leader of the free world they will have no credibility with their own people because neither Putin nor Iranian mullahs nor al-qaeda's I Islamic states or other sucks and dictators around the globe they have nothing to offer but confrontation they have to present themselves as the protectors of their own people against the world evil and of course you know they have to attack the world the free world that produces everything that by the way they they use quite effectively again against us they cannot compete in innovations they cannot compete in ideas in productivity but they can compete in something quite different because for us each human life is unique for them killing thousand people 100,000 people a million is a demonstration of strengths and and their match of qualities so we should realize that they have no allergy for blood and they were pressing their advantage and it's not that we are we have grown that our enemies have grown stronger it's all resolved that has grown weaker and the resolve is consistent with not becoming like Putin right absolutely it's it's it's since you know we going back to the collapse of the Soviet you know death was a absolutely unique moment in in world history and the United States was at that time was a lone superpower and it could do little everything so there was a moment to start thinking long term creating new institutions the same way as Winston Churchill Harry Truman you know conceived and built institutions you know after Fulton speech you know thinking long term because the entire infrastructure helped America and the free world to won the Cold War was built in in in late 40s in 91-92 America had to think long term again but you know we had an administration in our Clinton administration that was in in any party mode so let's go through those administration since for Americans that's so interesting I mean what what went wrong what could we have done that we didn't do under first president Bush show ready do you think there was I think the first president Bush in I was uncomfortable with his big changes because you know he he grew up in a UH in the pole at the pole wartime and he was quite scared about consequences of the collapse of the Soviet Union yeah and and and collapse of the communist system I mean he could probably didn't have enough imagination to see America you know just you know changing the world dramatically so making dramatic impact I can hardly imagine him you know just saying he will Empire you know it is because we all remember that Bush among others you know criticize Reagan for being so bold so aggressive because nobody could imagine that one day there would be no Soviet Union so suddenly Bush was presiding over the one of the most grandiose and moments in in in history and he tried to play it safe yeah okay mister that I think the biggest mistake he made that actually led to many mistakes later on it's the first first Gulf War he had to take also down to remove Saddam that could could do it were of cows but in 91-92 America I think was in a position to actually fix these problems so I think you know 91 92 later on with Clinton in the office there were few years like a window of opportunity when the United States could come up with some new ideas like rebuilding United Nations to come back to Saddam forever I very much I was in that administration and I I i won't take say that i saw that much of the future but i thought to myself that you cannot let the guy wage an aggressive war destroy you know kill people burn the oil fields in kuwait and then the status quo you don't go then you go back to the status quo ante he pays no price in effect he was ruling the same i mean he lost some people he lost some wealth but basically he's still in power in the same nation with the same borders that he that he had before that seems to be a terrible signal i don't think that was I don't think that was I think it had consequences don't you think Milosevic saw that I'm here up and said well okay you can launch an aggressive war and you don't get to pose you don't end up in absolutely so it's America wasn't ready to actually to exercise that role because you know it was American leadership that helped you know the free world to survive against communism onslaught and eventually to win the Cold War but American leadership was required to start thinking long term you know 10 20 25 30 years ahead by rebuilding the world by actually demonstrating that it was not just you know it's the end of history the liberal democracy says one but this is the it's to have a vision to show the vision of the future and I think that's that it lack of this vision and the fact that the Clinton administration was you know very much concerned about domestic affairs and you know enjoyed why because there were no threats people people used to think that Clinton administration was one most successful I mean I have totally opposite view because you don't you know you should not look at it now let me use the chest but chest metaphor yeah yeah you should not look just in at the final position when Clinton left the office you know America was still you know superpower but you know just remember what's happened when he took when he when he entered the office so what did not happened from 1992 to to year 2000 in 1992 now nobody argues America was all-powerful and could do many great things we don't want to you know spend too much time thinking arguing about it I believe that you know rebuilding United Nations and actually you know coming up with something more like a leak of a league of democracies and you know imposing this-this-this values I mean just for sink you know other other other countries just to accept you know that it's it's it's not just in a lip service that they have just to follow the EDD rules or regulations and respect human rights now in 2000 when when when when Clinton and at the end of technically 2001 but al-qaeda was ready to strike Putin was already in the office when you look at the world map you just realized that those these eight years they were just you know one of the worst years because so many opportunities were missed another was I don't want to mention the fact that Osama bin Laden could be killed couple of times at least couple of times but it just it's I think was kind of negligence because America was so powerful and again maybe it's a human complacency maybe you say inevitable because nobody cared because it was economy stupid so just nobody wouldn't think about global consequence and you know many bubbles were created you know at that time we remember the the housing bubble you know and and then and some of the future financial bubbles you know they were they were building up because people wanted to relax and then George W Bush if we can just walk through the US presidents look you know it's it's it's during my book tour you know I've been saying that you know this is the US foreign policy that was so consistent during the Cold War from Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan there were differences but within a range because all presidents Republicans and Democrats they realize they had an existential enemy and they had just to work you know in yes just to protect the United States and the free world and they knew they they knew that was the it was their duty and you know listening with debates for instance you know they liked very much Nixon and Kennedy debates you just understand that it there are two great Americans you know disagreeing con means but but agreeing on goals so what's happened since 92 it's where administration's that changed it quite dramatically the foreign policy and it was like more working more like a pendulum swinging from one side to another Clinton did very little w did too much Obama has been doing nothing so and it's and and it it sent message sent numerous messages across the world and while people knew you know in fifties and sixties and seventies and eighties that you know America was there in America was consistent you know even if you have a change in a change in Oval Office you know one party replaced another you can rely the United States America was behind American allies today you know it's probably the it's it's a spring time to to grant American enemy because this administration you know who gives up everything to the enemies and and betrays allies and going back to to to to george w administration it's very popular to criticize Bush today in Bush 43 especially for Iraq invasion and I heard many voices even within the Republican Party now you know it's sort of it's floating with with with with the popular trend first of all I have to say that as somebody was born and raised in a communist country I cannot criticize any action that led to the destruction of dictatorship I think his people had wrong expectations when I saw the collapse of Saddam's dictatorship after American invasion of Iraq and then the collapse of a few other dictatorships during the Arab Spring they had expectations that next day it would be a democracy man it's wrong it was very naive because dictators succeeds the staying in power for so many years not because he's you know he's a nice nice guy you know who just helps his people you know just to get out of poverty because he's brutal he's cruel he succeeds in destroying opposition first political opposition then freedom of press and and you know remaining horizontal ties in the society all the NGOs anything that could represent not just a threat to him but you know it's any you know the sort of the slightest dissent no it's kind of a political desert what do you expect in in in desert you know after 10 20 30 in case of Qaddafi 42 years of dictatorship so the end of the tether ship means there's a chance and that that was a chance in in Iraq then we can talk about mistakes made by Bush administration but again we should not forget while Quinten started his presidency now I went American being all-powerful Bush had start his presidency was 9/11 right and you know it says do we want you know to evaluate this presidency you know as a successful failure we should look at at the 9/11 9/11 effect throughout his presidency America was not attacked during Bush presidency and yes American soldiers fought wars outside of the United States but again they protected America it's it was a war but I think it's after the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the end of the of the Cold War people just lost you know what's the sense of borders you know this it's it's it's a digital world so they don't understand the wars can be fought way outside of the borders and you know in this extent now if we if we look at at the terror and the terrorist threat to the end states bush administration was was a success though of course you know Kenneth I I think you know he he failed to see the dangers of Latimer Putin he also you know couldn't you know rally European allies behind him so yeah it was not you know most efficient policy but yet compared to what's happened after him I think that's that's we should probably give him you know sort of a - know what if you step back and just think the most fundamental question if you were a radical Islamist a terrorist someone who wanted to kill Westerners and increase and have jihad succeed and increase you know be found a Caliphate or or you will you felt you were losing I do believe by November 2008 for all the mistakes of the Bush presidency after the surge you were on the retreat you controlled nothing really now there are things we could all criticize about things Bush should have done in her second term it didn't do perhaps in ways of which Rumsfeld didn't properly understand that you had to have a lot more troops in Iraq and enforce order and provide security but I do think if you compare that to the beginning of the Bush presidency we were at least in the right direction and that certainly doesn't feel to be the case now and it's you know it's the we live in a world where in a perception often be the reality and I think it's it's the the the or of the Iraqi war and also the war Afghanistan and you know just it's it's just it created an image again the perception in the minds of millions and millions of Americans you know and of course you know people outside the United States you know that's that they just don't understand you know that states day there were you know there were benefits of this wooferz and one of them was that the radical Islamists they were not defeated but they were not as as are capable to attack the free world as as their word year 2000 at the end of Clinton's Clinton second term right and if you look at Syria staying out of war turned out to be a very good recipe for radical Islamists to recruit people in Europe and everywhere this now since I mentioned Syria and and and and the current crisis I would probably use another chest metaphor is that you know you could make a wrong move you can even have a wrong plan but the worst thing you can do is ah you know I made a mistake six moves ago so how how can I go back and just you know just to rectify the mistake and maybe just tea house just to to to to so change the direction this is the this is the the best way to lose the game right because you know it's that you don't go back you know it's even if you made a mistake I mean you have to you know stick with what you have now on the board and to move forward you know just you know using you know your the your real resources and you know just trying to come up with the best in our best plan of what's what is available from what is available so even if you know if even if we disagree about you know the Iraq invasion in 2003 and and the consequent moves made by bush administration before the administration the decision of Obama administration to retreat especially announcing it this is the worst you can do it knows okay it's at at noon you know at that day that you know that months we are out so by sending the signal to to the radical Islamists to leave to the forces that were about you know just to recover and and and and prepare again for for attacks against the free world I mean that's that was a recipe for disaster and you know it created vacuum and it's not a surprise that you know that we live in a world today that it's much more dangerous place than 2008 and it just it helped whether they were put in to regain his confidence you know and because it after his attack against George el Republic of Georgia in 2008 and August he was basically rewarded by Obama Clinton reset policy instead of paying a paying a price for taking territory of neighboring country and of course you know it helped terrorist groups to regroup and of course it helped Iran to to gain so much power so I I you know it's I can hardly imagine you know that it's a shark dream yeah about total control of Iraq you know and basically spreading the Shiv once across the region and becoming you know the the dominant power that it did dwarf Saudi Arabian Gulf monarchies in the region I'm in a country that in 2009 had serious threats to the regime from the Iranian people I think in part inspired everyone makes fun of it now inspired by the democracy the elections the free elections in Iraq and since the G absolutely can elect our leaders that's good that's that's another chest rule you know you press your advantage if you have a promising position if you have an initiative you have to press you have to try to so convert it into some you know some kind of decisive you know decisive factors that will help you to win the game if you don't do nothing if you retreat so the initiative in ago goes to your to to to to your opponent and then you will be on defensive that's what happens and I suppose if it's poker in our chests there's even the psychological effect of retreat and of being and of showing it unwillingness to fight is even greater but in chess presumably if it's a tournament you know you lose one game but then you're it's a fresh start but poker is work yes you reel it of you know the reason I think it's poker analogies is it's much more sophisticated because while talking about soar equal military powers equal in strength so it Iran come on you know just Assad even Russia today we know it's a pale shadow of what was Soviet Union especially under Stalin yeah so and in opposing Stalin in 1948 you know opposing Khrushchev during the Cuban Missile Crisis you know confronting evil empire in the early eighties it was very different and it's just this hearing that our Putin is so dangerous you know just we cannot confront him because you know this some terrible things could happen come on let's let's look back and understand what kind of challenges you know other American presidents had to deal with you during the Cold War and it's you know it's it's it's more about psychology because you know it's when you look at this for instance Iranian deal I mean ah how or nurse you can imagine that Iran would get everything probably even more you know that they could they could they could take they could dream you know we they're you know just it's you know wildest dreams well you know just America you know keeps kept giving giving in on every every demand even in our before Iran could actually you know have the man on the table I think Kerry was ready to juju to to accept us yeah well let's I want to come back and want you to explain what happened in Russia that's obviously something you've you were so close to but you should write an article this to the poker I'm not to obsess about the poker and chess thing but I think you should write an article for Foreign Affairs magazine some prestigious magazine that's read by the foreign policy establishment called it's poker not chess it could be a famous article will be aside but I'll be like George Kennan it will be a sign for decades to kind of know it's very it's a very real insight I do think also your point about the the Cold War was more like chess in a way too big somewhat even powers absolute fairly stable yes chessboard you might say and so you could imagine straight you this in or land and we do this game since night one it was more of poker because again it's this America even today is much more powerful than in all the enemies combined it's probably the first time you know it's just after of the collapse of the Soviet Union that the the the forces of freedom the free world had overwhelming military and economic advantage and also politically you know it just it's it dominated the field because even the worst dictatorships now they trying to pretend that they have elections and not pressing this advantageous you know looks just quite all because you know it's it again creates this vacuum and also it I think it it effects ordinary people in in this countries whether it Arab countries Russia because they used to do to look at America as a beacon of freedom and they country that you know stood firm defending the free world now just it's quite odd because you know it's America is there but America is not there so just it's it's and you know a whole stories about current you know political climate here and about elections I mean they're just deaf it's it's there for the eroding the reputation of the United States and I think the damage caused by this administration to the prestige of the country and especially to the prestige of the presidency I mean this damage is you know it could take years to recover and to rebuild it's easy to lose your reputation easy to lose your friends to lose their confidence than to regain it yeah that's that's for sure let's talk about the 25 years in Russia I mean you watch that so closely and it didn't have to happen this way it wasn't inevitable the moment we say inevitable you know it sounds a bit a bit Marxist to me so I've always very very cautious in in in in claiming in inevitability you know just and blaming it for what's happened though of course you know they were objective in our reasons for for for Putin's rise so going back to 91 92 so I don't know whether we could demand from Yeltsin more than he did but of course now we understand that sort of restarting Russia as the success of the Soviet Union was a mistake it was an easy natural move and I think everybody expected it because there are so many problems you know you know during the collapse of the Empire you had you know former Soviet republics turning to be independent states and then you had financial issues how are you going to deal with the currency and the Soviet property abroad and the debts you know that's between the republics and I also about nuclear powers well yes then so and it's you can hardly blame Yeltsin the administration by the way being and being under pressure from Americans and Europeans to find simple solutions either just to again nobody thought was all about right now let's find the simple solutions for instance you know bring all the nukes to Russia you know Oh Ukraine is worried fine we we we give them guarantees okay guarantees we know what's happen with this guarantees you know Budapest memorandum 1994 Ukraine gave up 2,000 nuclear warheads mm ooh clear war it's more than China England and France combined yes in exchange for the guarantees from the United States and and the UK what's happened you know they just they walked away from that then also again there were there were economic problems and there was but at that time if I remember there was very little help from the outside world because nobody knew what was happening in Russia and everybody wanted to stay away so there's a lot of moral support thank you great some financial aid but not I think there was now again strategic advice how to build institutions typically now following and what Bush did Bush 41 did was Gorbachev in everything all the all his eggs in this basket 25 ministration put all the eggs and the in the else's basket so Americans wanted to just to deal with one individual or guests or the his administration rather than you know getting involved in in in this article nation-building because Russia was you know cables to cable country at that time but helping to build institutions that could make Russia a long term our and friend of the United States state building it's the statue is a nation building and they're one of the one of the one of the problems that we have not resolved at that time and I believe it's absolutely vital for the future of my country if we won't Russia to you know to play a positive role in the world in 21st century East you so to reject its criminal past the Soviet Union you know she'd not had not had not become a sort of foundation for for free and democratic Russia KGB is a criminal organization to be banned and the crimes of KGB whatever the name because then it changed many names right but it's it was still in erodes that's the an organization that aimed at at destroying any dissent and protecting dictatorship in Russia and it's not probably this is not an accident that since KGB was literally not touched in 91 92 it had its revenge eight years later yeah glad they were putting in a KGB Lieutenant Colonel taking over Russian Russian presidency also I think it just it's the the whole Soviet history now had to be had to be revisited so we could not rely on just you know on solid mythology about Stalin's role and winning the world World War two and Yeltsin did a little so again it was too busy with his economy was just you know fixing this that and one of the turning points you know was 1993 were the conflict with Yeltsin and the Supreme Soviet ended up with this you know military clash in the streets of Moscow yeah my sympathy was on Yeltsin side and I just you know I think that's you know he was right and this is he was dealing with really bad guys but you know today I understand that it's it was not about protecting Yeltsin at all cost what we had to do is to protect institutions at all costs and and the Yeltsin winning this you know very you know up short in a few days of civil war in the center of Moscow where's this tank showdown helped him to consolidate the power but he ended up with Russian Constitution that was not very democratic so it was much better than the Soviet Union but it already had seeds that helped Putin to become who is today the Constitution assigned too much power to President to to president and then you know the the next seven years Yeltsin has been sliding in this wrong direction it was all about protecting his power and eventually protecting his family in 1994 he started this war in Chechnya again it's it's not not unusual and the leader in trouble is looking for a small war in a victorious war to to boost his credentials but that's what that was the beginning of one of the worst and disasters in in post-soviet history and it wasn't necessary look of course it's dead if you look at church now today with putin's henchman Ramzan Kadyrov being in charge and and having private army I don't know 2025 thousands of former in a guerrilla now just worry Russian uniform and yes used to kill people and just they do nothing is that they are but they're terrorizing you know not only people in Chechnya but across across Russia there you know they they're part of this you get business negotiations yeah Chechen style and you know they have been used for more drink Putin's enemies outside of the country and recently you know Boris Nemtsov just you know in front of Kremlin so and go back to general do dive and general and Colonel Masada failed as for leaders first leaders of Chechen I Pro independence movement in in early 90s and you look what they asked from Moscow and what Kabir of today got from Moscow because basically currently today has been paying ransom to cut the rope just to keep them quiet because this is the last you know element of Putin's legacy remaining legacy so he pacified pacified Chechnya and there's the peace in the in the North Caucasus though it's it's it's it's a huge price paid I mean Putin carpet bombed Chechen cities you know you just what was erased changed and so and and instead of horrors of the first war specially the Second Chechen war already and the Putin Yeltsin could accepted you know some of the relatively modest demands short of Independence yeah maybe it was not in a easy politically but just again knowing what's happened afterwards I mean this definitely was a mistake I mean huge mistake and then 1996 elections again I was on the Yeltsin side we all were who were terrified by by you know even the remote remote a chance of Communists coming back but the best thing they also could at that time is probably you know just to find a successor because there's so many options in 1995-1996 I remember one for instance academician Yuri job he was a head of Moscow vation Institute one of the best intellectuals in Russia the one of the leaders of democratic movement and ambassador in France and people I keep kudi they could you know take over and we'd like 96 they could have won elections the problem is that in 2000 was really different because you know just people you know people were quite frustrated and also they could feel that everything else and said indeed was not necessarily in the favor of Russian people but it was it was already you know it's it was it was more you know leaning towards the interest of oligarchy and Yeltsin's Yeltsin's family so that's why while I'm still you know I'm still mourning the moment where Yeltsin sack Boris Nemtsov the first deputy prime minister at that time and many believed his successor and it's hard to imagine what would be you know actually it's easy to imagine what would Russia if Boris Nemtsov would be picked up as the SD as a Yeltsin successor but maybe 98 99 was ready too late because there was a financial collapse and it's the there was a huge backlash it's like the pendulum was swinging to the opposite side and and Yeltsin was looking for a strongman and they came up with someone they thought they could control as many times in history many times before you know this man who looked you know just as the as sort of a good soldier that would follow you know the orders and would protect the else's family protect the interests of Russia oligarchy I mean he turned to be the worst dictator that you know that's the worst choice that Russia could could a Russian Yeltsin could could have made at that time and you don't buy the argument or do you that either EU expansion or NATO expansion including the countries of Central and Eastern Europe was sort of a provoked Russia or legitimized a kind of nationalism in Russia and reaction against what they proceeded where they portrayed as at least the kind of anti-russian alliance now I I think it's quite annoying you know just that there's so many people in this in the West in the free world in America or in Europe they still use this argument right I mean it's the it's an insulting argument for not just people in Ukraine who have been suffering immensely over the last few years you know fighting for for freedom fighting just for for you know just to be independent they dying for the rich the show they were ready to die by defending their freedom but it's also about you know what about smaller nations Estonians a lot mainly civilians who suffer terribly under Soviet occupation for decades now if not today for NATO membership that included Baltic Baltic States who doubts Russian tanks will be rolling over street style in Regan Vilnius what about polls they also suffered immensely now by being attacked by Hitler and by Stalin and then in air just leaving undecided occupation for more than 40 years so what about them so just denying their rights to be protected by naita big part of Europe I mean that would probably you know it's just make this conflict even worse because Putin would have not stopped short of of using disadvantage I think to the contrary that in the 90s you know there was - did it's by in US policy towards Russia it was too much of carrot and it's almost no stick there was so many things that could be achieved if America had the plan vision and strengths few people remember that the beginning of Iranian nuclear program and the first moment were American president it addressed his Russian counterpart about this potential problem was in 1995 that was the beginning of Russian a transfer of nuclear technology to Iran the United States Congress had a bipartisan resolution bipartisan resolution authorizing President President Clinton to raise the issue with with with with Yeltsin and if necessary to cut financial aid which was absolution at that time if Russia would refuse to to halt these dis transfers Clinton he just had a press conference was he else in Yeltsin in a laughs yeah Hawk Clinton Clinton laughed so this it's he decided that it was not so important for US national security security and this you know it could you know jeopardize reforms in Russia so the same language also we can look at North Korea 1994 so in 1994 Clinton administration scientists nuclear deal you know that that propped up the North Korean regime the worst dictatorship on the planet these days save them in air from probably imminent collapse and now 22 years later they have the nukes they have the missiles and they're still in power so and I could start counting you know this moment after moment is and I think that is this the reason Putin you know believed that he could he could go anywhere you know whether it's Ukraine Syria or you name it it's because he just he saw nothing but weakness right I was struck with in your book to your account it was also articles you've written speeches you've given what is it what it's like in Russia today I don't think people really I was discussing pilots foreign policy to someone and I said well you know we have to stand up to dictators and I actually made the point you made earlier that others debate I'm certainly no expert on this I mean the underestimate in fact how important Putin is I think to the Alliance the dictators around the world as she saves at the center of this passion web but also someone said to me well he's not really a dictator you know he's been elected and Medvedev was there and and then oh yeah and this frieze there's still some freedom of association and progressed but I think Americans do not understand I probably don't either so what the actual state of dictatorship is in its day today it's the it's a full-blown one-man dictatorship it just it's the there are some windows of democracy that Putin uses and his propaganda uses just you preserve the image of Putin still be you know a Democratic leader it's quite important because unlike Stalin's a Stalin's dictatorship or right now old-style chinese dictatorship the modern dictators they have very close ties with the free world you know this having these connections you know having access to financial markets to new technologies so building this you know political and and and no cultural ties you know creates an illusion it helps them hear both ways one you know just it keeps him in a loop Putin in this case you know in the loop and Putin's propaganda machine used most effectively the fact that Putin for many years was the member of g8 I couldn't pronounce g8 because you know g7 was you know seven great industrial democracies and the group of seven greatest all democracies and I didn't think that Russia you know feat to be part of that but it was also by the way an advance payment to Yeltsin it's just it's the it's again coming you know and then with you know expecting a Russia would would boot become you know sort of its full-blown democracy now that that that could play by the same rules by the way you know China was never invited it's much more powerful economy or India for the sake of argument but it was Russia because there were very high expectations but we can put in took it for granted he kept taking things from from foreign leaders of the free world without giving anything anything back and 2006 was sort of climax where Putin was a chair the year that Russia in Russia had a chair a chair seat in so-called g8 g7 + 1 and in saint-petersburg Putin had a massive sort of propaganda coup that was that that that was all over the place in Russia and how could okay whether it's me or Boris Nemtsov or whoever how we could convince even those Russians who were sympathetic to our cause that Putin was not a Democrat if he was there you know chairing the meeting who is Bush Blair Berlusconi I think work oh yeah it's this Chirac this is a picture you know it's it's an epic a nose a thousand words and we were trying to warn people about the potential strengths of putting dictatorship so as Putin is it fair to call him a dictator we've got elections and there seems to be some some press and civil society and so forth oh it happened before in human history and eventual dictators have been elected my first place thought it was advil Hitler yeah just to to describe Putin's rule well yes we yeah we should try to actually to use you know certain analogy which is you know with a normal democratic country the United States so number one Putin never participated in single debate sees life hmm that's you know while the first things Putin did in in in year 2000 after you know the camera crushing president of course he restores old anthem very important by the way message you know what I could do you've given the chance but after Russian something if the somewhere in the course you know sank now what he did he eliminated life television in Russian Susan since year 2000 there is no live television Russia is that right yes that's right so you don't know no it's all break the only only nine o'clock in the news is some news but it's just totally controlled by bribed by but otherwise that's it that's it it's always chat no news channel no it's recorded so as then when people yeah people say oh he was elected but you know elections don't adjust you know it's it's just a one day you wanna just you you actually cast your ballot elections it is a complicated process extra casting the ballot is like you know sort of climax also but it's been a complicated process it starts with registered political party you cannot do it rush today so unless you have Kremlin's concerned raising funds uh-huh welcome services you will never see a penny so because everybody knows the moment you support you know any opposition Mikhail Khodorkovsky the richest man in Russia in year 2003 it was not even not only challenging the regime that he just you know had some ambitious of being independent most successful Russian company in 2003 the richest man ten years in jail so this was a message just to understand that you know you you know you you you can't even think about challenging the decisions made in Kremlin it's like here you know if you want an American parallel it's you know administration say Bush administration so destroying Microsoft and just putting Bill Gates in jail because he's supporting Democrats so it's the impossible but that's that's those are the realities and by the way we're talking about 2003 2004 2005 so dictatorship you know doesn't happen overnight this is not something oh it's a it's a coup no Putin dictatorship ass by the way many others again go back to Hitler or even Stalin it was just you know grabbing here on their little bit so just it's it's it's not actually sending the warning signs and just you know every day you discovery a little bit of you know less freedom here and there and put a new that you know he had to offer something to Russian people you know just to make them feel comfortable while he was you the process amputating one piece of freedom after another and he was very lucky all prices jumped so he got cash I mean Russia never had so much cash available either it's hours time and Generals in just paying it and just you know creating her also the sense of satisfaction people you know rush middle-class that just disappeared our blue unlike in the two motors nineties under Yeltsin people you know could think about the future you know they could make you know just some plans they could travel abroad you know just stay there decent life so they liked it they thought maybe this is democracy maybe this is something that we should we should support and at the same time Putin gradually you know destroyed any any opposition any groups opposition that could potentially be challenged be challenging when in 2005 I ended my I've ended my professional chess career and moved in what people very generously called politics in Russia the most popular question I was asked is whether chess you know my chest knowledge my chest experience you know good was helpful in navigating in this rough waters you know just again Russian politics and my answer was it was not because in chess we have fixed rules clear rules and unpredictable results in Putin's Russia is exactly the opposite results taste stays the same well constantly change and you mentioned MIT that if you know the name that probably you know young Americans already forgot and just and for the good reason because the shadow so just it was a fake it was another cover operation but a very successful one yeah who said and as every dictator who you know managed to stay in power for so long I mean he had a great animal instincts he knew in a word you could press a while had just you to make a waiting move so just not to not to press his luck he knew that in 2007-2008 it would be too dangerous for him to actually go against Russian Constitution to change it and stay you know for the third term because that would be you know that that would send the message that he's you know the body's plans but maybe you know again it's it's it's hard to to argue now whether it's you know it's not but in 2007-2008 he could have walked away yeah probably paying off the Khodorkovsky and the yuccas and you know settlings of all scores and he had so much money so much influence he could probably buy international in the committee enough to become the president there so he could have comfortable life the very fact that he decided to stay as technically number two guy but of course you know as a puppet master pulling all the strings for me it was an unmistakable sign yeah it's it's you know it's is therefore life amazingly Americans Europeans they looked at Medvedev and puts his puppet you know as the as a savior you know somebody they could work with as somebody who could you know one day revolt against put the shadow doesn't revolt against it's it's its master and MIT was approved it all it is just you know he just you know in enlarge the presidential term so from four to six years and he basically brought Putin back in 2011 announced that he would not run and his boss you know I would go back to Kremlin well he would stay as a prime minister but again it's it's he could be Prime Minister it could be whoever so it just it's it's all about Putin's comfort and can put a new that you know me that it was important because you represented so-called liberal wing and put it was always very good in in creating this balance between so-called liberals when I said liberals rush it's we use this word for for pro-western affiliation and the the guys on the security side at the end of the day they all doing the same job because Hitler also had some guys you know Stalin that did you know important things for economy just you know to make the country was functioning and the guys who they dinner the police worker just had to had to conduct the dirty jobs so I put in always tells how to keep this balance and and even it out today you know he still has these guys around him because he knows that those are very good in just you know in killing people and just you know disclosing demonstrations and and doing the police police job they will not be very good in keeping his economy a fall especially at a time of the of the low oil prices and in the 2012 Putin came back and it was quite an amazing moment that you know when President Obama met at that time yet President Medvedev and sending him message that I would be more flexible after his after after after my real actions which and he making sort of MIT Romney for saying in the campaign oh by this is in Russia was a great return yes actually the Romney said Russia was an America what was was was a number one geopolitical fall and Romney was right the problem was was with the statement was that room they didn't believe in it the Romney it was a figure of speech Romney wanted to sort of to attack Obama and Obama trashed him and you could see that Romney didn't know how to respond it was no passion you know when Reagan said evil empire he believed in it right and it's just it's it's what American presidents were Truman or Kennedy you know what they just as stood against in a Soviet Union they believed they knew you know they would it was something so important that they had to take risk for wrongly it was just you know which was a soundbite and he didn't know how to play was this when Obama aggressively pushed him back but for Putin this message it's you know it was like a carte blanche you know move on do whatever you want so this is and I think that's at that time put North knew that he could go to Ukraine other places now and you know I don't want to find an excuse for Putin's or Hitler's of this world but the problem is that they always take with this this kind of statements has a weakness and basically an invitation to continue Heather never believed that England or France would go into war for Poland because they gave up Czechoslovakia and in his mind what was a difference Czechoslovakia Poland it's in the eastern east of Europe it's not for you why why now this is what's the point same with Putin you know Georgia and a message that he said many times actually george w also heard this message and he didn't react putin repeatedly said that the collapse of the soviet union was the greatest geopolitical disaster and also many times he repeated that russia had special rights for the so-called near abroad yeah it is the sphere of influence this is a way putin saw and still still sees you know the world it's like you know the nineteenth early twentieth century map you know with big powers you know that czars you know the monarchs you know pushing the weak nations and it's all about it like concept of great nations just few big nations that could negotiate so in Putin's mind it's it's Russia and America so that's why I always address America it's and Russian propaganda is it's pretending that it's not a war on Ukraine its Ukrainians AMERICA AMERICA America's proxy so that's why we fight the America there so it's not air to God every gun is is American puppet so it's this he did it because he was it was ordered by by the White House and no matter what America does you know no matter how many new messages about but flexibility America sense no matter how many concessions America makes no matter how you know how many treaties it signs it still remains a number-one enemy because again for Putin is the only enemy you know it's worse having to look strong you must have a strong enemy and as long as America that remains preeminent it will be a number-one target for every no reason his power for every dictator for every terrorist group and this is a big mistake that has been made by you know by administration but I think many Americans who simply don't understand that you know if if your country's is unique if it's exceptional if you believe in American exceptionalism you know it has a price you will be number one target right and unless you understand it you know you will be paying price because you know you want to be exceptional and you want to be loved it's not easy so I was a world champion for a long time and trust me narration but also this is hard feelings yes but in this case you know it's it's it's it's a policy it's a conscious policy of enemy on the enemies of the free world to preserve America's America's status as a number-one target because that what makes them feel good feel strong and that's why they're you know they they keep their subjects they're those that govern you know sort of under their thumbs and I think use of phrases like sphere of influence the near abroad which I assume they have Russian antecedents but also very effective over here for the foreign policy establishment which is full of people who never liked the overly universalistic democratic Human Rights rhetoric of Bush maybe there were some criticisms that were fair but they didn't think that they that didn't seem subtle and often sophisticated enough and they loved Kissinger err and spheres of influence and geopolitics and I think in a way Putin was very clever in around what she intended this but he sort of gave the foreign policy establishment a way to pretend to understand what he was to understand and sympathize with what he was doing so what he invaded Ukraine it was well you've got to understand it's you know Crimea and history and this and that and everything gets explained away you know oh it's this he knows that you know there's a huge crowd on both sides of Atlantic that will be willing it's always willing to accept his arguments it says he throws you know just you know a little bit of food here and there and they all just you know they're ready to bite it I mean yeah it's just God's sake it's just you know it's it's it's the first case of annexation of of the territory of neighboring country in Europe since 1945 actually the world is the second one after Saddam Hussein Kuwait right and we're still you know talking about it as if maybe there were some arguments maybe in a kind of historical truth this is you know something that you know this is the young people should understand the moment they hear historical quoted quote historical arguments in the geopolitics look for trouble you know since it's it's this there are rules regulations treaties agreements you know we live in a world where you cannot appeal to history because when we started you know so this is it's especially in Europe especially in the Middle East you know they in America is probably easier because you have 400 years that's more or less it's clear so it but you monkey you go to the continents were Enel some places were just you know change hands dozens of times and you don't know these hundred years ago 20 years ago 20 years ago so that's why since 1945 the decision was made you know that nobody touches the borders right and what Putin did and that's that's one of these greatest you may call contribution to the cows and world he run away from this consensus and it's oh it's like opening Pandora's Box and what was the game I would take away with with Georgia or I think it's it's not only Georgia but its general weakness Georgia was a test yeah so and this he realized that he know you could get away was that I think if you think I mean Bush reacted fairly okay Bailey Georgia but it was already he wasn't pushed to him ever cameras in the campaign and then became is ridicule people forget this and I wait for saying we are Georgians baby was a little bit of an overstatement but Obama ridiculed him and then Obama takes over I've always thought this was underestimated as an important moment and they announced the reset with Russia yes the same government the same country that invaded a neighboring country that was incidentally a pretty decent country in a friendly country das and a pretty democratic country that had invaded it just what six months before and that's a pretty astonishing message if it's the it's the actually this is this this moment was this to the beginning of this you know make all sunshine policy of this of this current administration that continued for so many years and it it has destroyed the trust between the American allies and the countries like Georgia Republicans a tiny country that believed in America believed in America's intentions good intentions in supporting freedom and democracy and believed that if you play by the rules you know if you you know build your country based on the Khan the common values of the free world I mean you will be helped what would another and we could see just around the world that today America's on retreat and you know it's you know it becomes so natural for for all these dictators and thugs and terrorists just to grab the territory if it's being vacated vacuum doesn't survive for too long so it's immediately being filled and in case of the Middle East it was failed by Russia by round by Islamic state by other terrorist groups and the vacuum in the in foreign policy in the United States of coherent you know long-term planning comprehensive foreign policy or in Europe has been filled by the by the populist demands it's as people just lost lost the track you know just yeah just it's they they see no connection between foreign policy and and and and domestic affairs that's you know how you know at its which is quite ironic because at the time when we live in a war that's getting smaller and smaller you know because of the oldest all these great technologist devices that by the way invented in our world every world that we can learn everything about the most remote part of the world you know what's happened there so weather weather bad or good at this time you know people just don't realize that you know they're you know success domestics success you know just their jobs the financial security they depend very much on the this great country place in global affairs you know you cannot expect to get benefits from trade from finance from you know very mobile a labor market pretending that you are not long interested in global affairs I you know I'm also not happy with these tired premises of the United States you know being global policeman it's I think it's it's it's it's a wrong concept because you should not talk about a policeman who is just you know walking is all beaten arrow and shooting or carpet-bombing canary occasionally bad guys it's about leadership global leadership which by the way includes policing but global leadership is more it's about showing the vision this is something that is so badly needed because again you offer nothing you try to stick with status quo it the this vacuum the ideological vacuum be filled by bad guys why you have so many younger young boys from well of families from Europe from Australia New Zealand this country I mean going to bro joining Isis because there's always a tendency now just to you know for full point for young people to you know fight for something new something different this and unless we we offer the our vision you know whose it will keep losing this battle and this is something that you know that that helps Putin and like to sort of dominate global agenda because we are not just on retreat we are you know we're trying to preserve status quo and we offer no vision long-term vision 5 10 15 20 years ahead of time that's what could be done by the United States because this country you know has you know as a history by the way it had it for the Central American Century it's either it has values that are so vital for success free-market religious liberty it's you know it's its openness and this values that attracted people who the end States that's what I was a kid and what I grew up on other side of our Iron Curtain and ignoring them you know just trying to abandon them trying to pretend that you know you could be just in a just another country it's just it hurts free well and it hurts the United States you know every country every individual or you know has you know as his role and you know walking away from from the role that that that is designed for you by by destiny it's just you know it's it's it's all the structure now for what it's worth I very strongly greer that it was during the Bush years I mean push it over stated a little bit at the end of tyranny and all that but all the critics were showing how clever they were by showing the whole history is more complicated oh you can't just always there's a tension sometimes between interests and values as if everyone doesn't know that and they totally in my view underestimated the importance of that big vision both in terms of helping people we wanted to help around the world and helping the American people understand what we were doing in a bigger way than having to say this intervention here and that one there and this helping these Democrats here and monied people to have a bigger sense of it and I think was important internally in terms of morale and and feeling the country was about something bigger than just you know having the GDP go up two percent from year-to-year yes but I think is the GDP gross was much higher than two percent when America played you know that's true just wrong yes right the things are connected and and and then we are now just seeing is this this I think it's it's like an identity crisis yeah and and the Trump and Sanders you know this for me it's like you know there's two sides of the same coin is they they are they're more like as reflections of this crisis because a lot of people they just a dev they have they've no they didn't need a vision and unless you know these days the global vision that is coming you know from the mainstream something that is based on the values made this country great and you know helped us to to build the dominance of the free world around the globe so unless this this vision is available you know again there's no back home somebody else will come with either with very nationalists you know zero for big ideas or with the you know was the siren songs of socialism but it is amazing we're talking in April of 2016 and I don't from leading the Republican field Bernie Sanders trailing Hillary Clinton by a little bit half the voters basically more or less going for either an authoritarian who sympathizes with Putin or socialist who went on his honeymoon to the Soviet Union just after after America wins the Cold War after the basic principles of liberal democracy that of American democracy vindicated what would think by looking around the world right I mean it's kind of an unbelievable moment you know I promoting the book my latest one this winter's coming I across this country in many places universities you know different kind of different kind of crowds East Coast Midwest West Coast and you know addressing young crowds you know so I just had a sense that just for many of them you know the Soviet Union was you know it's as remoted as ancient Greece you know just that's the history of the Cold War I think it's just it's it's it's unless you deep you are talking to it to a crowd that leaves true so but but for you know just for Millennials and even just for people that didn't is in their mid series you know it's just it's something that you know had no relevance for you know for you know who we are today so and and having this kind of break in house or in historical memory I think just it's it's it's it you know create sort of perverted vision of the modern world so we just it's just it's it's very important that we just we know we we recover this this is historical knowledge we just understand you know what's happened you know and why it's still relevant it's you know the Cold War was not one you know by accident it's not just was one because you know these just economic superiority or mill during my that was important of course but it's also values yeah that's the the values that you're in the foundation of this country but also the values that he knew that attracted so many people around the world and right now it seems that you know it's Americans are looking you know not typically for Americans looking for over simplistic solutions so we just believe that you know we could have you know we could have our you know low paid jobs back to that states it's just it's a but unless you address people in Airways with your vision explaining them that it's 21st century and in 21st century you know you should not look back you should analyze what you did you did right within it wrong but you should look into in the future uh and and and being you know being a leader so as Harry Truman said in 1951 by the way you know answering Obama you know six years earlier we cannot lead the forces of freedom from behind this is you know this is America's role yes always think yeah it's it's and we heard it and then it was indifferent force repeated by many presidents so there's so many things that can be done and by the way there's still you know this is America even with all you know this is negatives you know that's in economy and political while it's still you know the the they did in the driving seat of innovations it's still this so the most vibrant economy in the world though of course when you look at the numbers you know just it's it's it's it's I think it's the first time America dropped you know from top ten of the countries it's that the sort of the the most comfortable countries for for doing business it's quite amazing so that's that's that's surprisingly the only one the only country that that isn't top ten from the Western Hemisphere is chilly so foreigner I mean the history of foreign observers coming to America living in America rich is visiting America from Tocqueville on they've often been perceptive about America in a way that if you grow up here you it's a little harder to see it so I mean let's talk about that just for a few minutes might be to conclude anyway sure when did you first come to America I don't even know first time you know remember it was February 1988 actually was my first trip across the ocean I was already the world champion we played a World Blues championship in Canada in San Joan so it's the north and then I visit New York it was my first trip and and I had many troops in 88 89 90 90 so and of course you know just it over said by platon in your regular research in 1995 the world championship match was founded on Alan from India were played on the top of the World Trade Center right having the first game opened by Mayor Giuliani on September 11 yes then we lived 99 for half of the world yes yes yes 107 floor would play there so about America I mean what would be your no I said what do we underestimate or overestimate or what I saw a tremendous change because you know I just it's a we saw what America did you know and just on the wrong Reagan you know it's it liberated the world so that's its again the weight that we saw it and and I saw a lot of changes for instance I mean New York you know since I visited her the first time even you know just from early 9 just changed quite dramatically so at that time you know West Side in Manhattan Upper West Side was not believe yes yes now I leave it there up and it says it's a great neighborhood you know so yeah we could see these tremendous changes on the mayor Giuliani in New York again we'll celebrate it you know the end of communism and so I know this is the it's the years of Clinton administration as rosy times so just that's enjoyed I have to say that you know I didn't have much time just to sort of to reflect all these changes now I'm thinking about it and just in this type as it's a professional chess player I just hope the back to analyze it and I think that's whether it was inevitable or not so we go back to the same you know the same point it was very difficult for Americans you know after the hardship of the Cold War I mean to you not to lose the sense of urgency of rebuilding the world so as they they will get America the great job you know we just in in in in in helping the world just to to be shaped as it is now when you look at every new device that we carry in our pockets or purses you know technologies and it's it's still you know it's still if it's not made in the USA it's almost like a made in China but it's conceived and invented in in the USA it still remains you know the most attractive country for for immigrants the talented those who are looking for you know for a chance to succeed but you know every country even as a great as America should you know again should look you know look at the mirror and should reinvent itself because you know time changes the time change changes our institutions must change but our values must not so this is and that the based on the values that made this country great I think it's time to you know look at the mirror and just to start you know reinventing the country going back to you know to to the notion of risk sacrifice this is something that is is is is so vital is it's it's it's embedded in the nature of capitalism recognizing that you know it's it's it's it's a success of the country it's a success of the nation its success of the free world which could you know be a failure of group of an individual or group of individuals but but unless we try you know as to recover this they said is this spirit you know this is the spirit of capitalism the spirit of freedom the spirit of the free market I with these values of risk and sacrifice I think will be will be doomed you know just to to become hostages of the political populace who are trying to offer us solutions that already failed you know my response to Bernie Sanders you know a stories you know fairytales is that the failure of capitalism is still much better than success of socials because we know that insistence is and you know I don't you know think that is just it's it's so we have to respond the dog from because again we know what happens where people become become addicted to this kind of this is a primitive philosophy that you know just it's like a drug you know it offers you a little bit of you know of comfort and under illusions but eventually you know you pay dearly for for your attempt to escape their escape reality and you've spoken on a lot of college campuses in this recent book tour for winter is coming so it's your sense of yeah I'm just curious I mean one always hopes the next iteration yeah it depends of course on the only on the institutions but obviously you know most of the colleges they are leaning left in its and then because the academics there this is the the teachers stay you know I think they are selling the lead not sorry they are presenting the the vision of the world that is outdated that's nothing those realities say I'm also affiliated with with Oxford see the visionary fellow walks on Mars the school so I just spend a few days a year there and I can tell you that it's the atmosphere in in Britain in in Oxford campus it's quite different from many know similar institutions in in in terms of stature and prestige in the United States it's it's far more cosmopolitan it's far more it's it's it's more open in you know inclusive here is just I think it's justit's the oftenly now in the campus in any campus in United States you could see in very aggressive reaction you know because it's it's like an attempt to cover your sort of the the lack of intellectual arguments by by ideological stubbornness so as that's this and again I hope there will be more debate that's what that's what I wanted you to achieve by by by promoting my book you know it's the it's winter's coming it's not just warning but it's also story it says us it's you read you know you may disagree but it'll go back to the debates again this is a very important part of American culture debate because you know just we mentioned the Nixon Kennedy debate and you just told me about you know Reagan Carter debate there were debates today we don't have debates you know they're not listening to each other it's and it's all about sound bites it's about debates worrying LD the country could actually find you know what's the best way to move forward and it's very important that if the political class will not argue about goals will disagree about means but the goals will remain the same as the values and and hopefully we will see the just the the recovery of the political class but but you know but it's also depends on the mainstream so there's all things are connected right so that's why the young generation and it should should learn more about history of the United States and get to be proud of this history it's just you know this is not just you know it's a book or or many books you know written by by some you know people that it's that's that you know and and and the book have nothing to lose our life today now we have to learn from this books we have to learn from the history and you know based on this knowledge based on this you know on this on these achievements and accomplishments of of the founding fathers or the forebears in the United States we have to you know we have to move in the future I hope this conversation encourages people to read your book and and and other writings of yours and read generally American history and serious debates I couldn't agree more and revealed debates in political philosophy and in understanding history and really trying to that the the conceit today as you know the universities as would never been more open forward-looking etc it's the opposite right if it's not as if there's nothing open about being totally blinkered and the way you think about yeah in the world yes yes challenging First Amendment you know just not not accept another high watermark yes anyway so thank you so much for just fitting in this conversation Gary and thank you for joining us on conversations

Channel: Conversations with Bill Kristol

Views: 9,929

Rating: 4.2440944 out of 5

Keywords: Garry Kasparov, William Kristol, Vladimir Putin, Russia, American Foreign Policy, Cold War

Id: SfcFhjyTpi8

Length: 80min 9sec (4809 seconds)

Published: Sun Apr 24 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/Lucky13R]

Fuck this lowly piece of trash.

[u/bonnecat]

He reminds me of Berezovsky.