You may be seated. Good morning, Your Honor. Good morning, Ron. This is the case of <i>
Thayer v. Thayer.</i> Thank you.
Good day, everyone. AUDIENCE: Good day. Ms. Thayer,
you are here today in hopes of saving what is left
of your marriage. In doing so,
you summoned your husband Mr. Thayer
to Paternity Court to prove that not only did he father your 19-month-old
daughter Kaydence, but also your
three-your-old son,
Matthew Jr., is that correct? Yes, Your Honor. JUDGE LAKE: Mr. Thayer,
you say you absolutely do not trust your wife and you are prepared
to get a divorce today when the results reveal
that either one or both kids are not yours? That's correct,
Your Honor. JUDGE LAKE: So, Ms. Thayer, what is the current status
of your relationship
with your husband? AMBER: We don't even
have sex anymore. What married couple
doesn't have sex?
We're young. It's the back and forth
arguing all the time. We argue so much
that my son is starting to get mad
and yell and repeat some of the stuff that we say and I wanna prove to him
that these are his kids. I've done nothing wrong
to him for him not to trust me and for him to say
that these aren't his kids and I have five kids total
and he treats the three oldest kids better
than he treats his own kids and I don't feel like
that's fair. Um, and I mean,
this is the last resort. So this doubt
is wreaking havoc
in your marriage? MATTHEW: Yeah, in my mind, we're basically separated
'cause we don't sleep in the same room no more. When we're around
each other,
she's on her phone and we just sit
in the same house and we don't even
communicate no more. <i> So I don't feel
that connection with her</i> <i> or the kids for that matter.</i> And all of this
is because of the doubts. MATTHEW: Yes, Your Honor. With regard to the paternity of the two youngest children? Yes, Your Honor. I wanna understand
how this all started. When we first met,
she told me that it was clear that she didn't want
no relationship. She just wants
friends with benefits and I wanted the same thing. I didn't want
a relationship at that time. Ms. Thayer,
what's this open thing? You do what you do,
I do what we do, we're in a relationship,
what is that about? I've been in some
really bad relationships to where I just didn't
trust men, I even went through a phase
where I started dating girls
for a little while, JUDGE LAKE:
So what you're saying is this whole open thing
that you agreed to was not because you wanted
to have access and opportunity to sleep
with other people. It was so that
you didn't have to expect fidelity or expect him to not cheat? AMBER: Yes, Your Honor. JUDGE LAKE: At some point,
you find out you're pregnant? Yes. That is correct,
Your Honor. And what happens from there? I didn't know what to say because I wasn't planning
on having any more kids. I mean,
I had three girls already, so I was already a single mom
for the three girls. JUDGE LAKE Were you all
using protection? No. Well, then you were planning
on having another baby. AMBER: That is correct. (APPLAUSE) Fail to plan,
plan to fail, so... MATTHEW: And, uh, and then
I believe she was pregnant before we even got together because Matthew was born
three weeks early and she told me
about three weeks in
that she was pregnant. So that's where that doubt
comes in for him. So you felt like you met,
you all were
sleeping together not using protection.
But then when
she came up pregnant, you thought it was
a little too soon? Yes. And that's after
he was born that I started putting
those pieces
together because... JUDGE LAKE:
You began doing the math? Yes. Ms. Thayer,
I need to know from you,
do you remember around which date
you felt like you conceived Matthew? I believe I conceived Matthew
September 10th and the reason
that I feel that way is because that night,
he had a hotel party and after his friends left, we stayed
and we pretty much... We had sex about three
or four times
that night alone. I mean, he knows
my conception date. This is not new to him. So your conception date,
you say, was around
September 10th? AMBER: Yes. All right, 2012. So if we calculate, the child should be born
somewhere between June 2nd and June 9th. When was Matthew born? May 18th. JUDGE LAKE: Oh,
so there's your doubt. Yes, Ma'am. JUDGE LAKE: And look,
the babies do come early, but you claim
she was with somebody else approximately
three weeks before? Yeah. JUDGE LAKE:
So you feel emotional
because... It hurts, I mean, I love him
or I wouldn't have
married him. This is the person
that I wanna spend
my life with. MATTHEW: <i> This is
my first child too,
Your Honor.</i> <i> I was excited
because I didn't have
no kids.</i> I didn't have
a family or anything and she was gonna
give that to me. And I wanted that. This is something
that I really do want. I want a family of my own
that I can grow with and I can watch them grow
and I can teach them all the things
that they're supposed to do <i> in their life
that I didn't do in mine.</i> JUDGE LAKE: <i> And so,
why do you doubt her
so much?</i> Just because of
some of the things
that she says when we do get in arguments, she brings up the fact
that she would sleep
with somebody else. That's puts a big,
big seed in my head thinking that
she's gonna go do that
and I work 11 hour days. So there's plenty of time
during the day for her to put
the kids down to sleep and go mess with somebody, clean up, and then
I come home
and give her a kiss like I normally do
when I come home. So, because of
these trust issues, you've asked the court
to administer a lie detector test? MATTHEW: Yes. JUDGE LAKE:<i>
We did in fact do that</i> <i> and I will have those results
for you in just a bit.</i> MATTHEW: <i> Thank you.</i> JUDGE LAKE: <i> All right.</i> I'd like to go to your doubts
surrounding Kaydence. That is your younger child. <i> You all have two children
together potentially.</i> Yeah, 'cause around the time
that she was conceived, we weren't really having sex. JUDGE LAKE: You find out
she's pregnant again and immediately doubt? Yes. How are we gonna
have a kid if we don't
have sex? JUDGE LAKE: So you testified
earlier, Ms. Thayer, that you were
in a sexless marriage? AMBER: Yes. I mean,
when he's talking about
with Kaydence, I uprooted
my whole life for him. So for me to uproot
my whole life into all of this stuff
for him and then for him
to turn around
and say stuff like, "I have doubts.
I don't think
that these are..." I'm only around you. I'm not around anybody else. I don't see why you would
think I would waste
my time to move... But I don't know that,
Your Honor. That doesn't... I'm not so certain that she's only with me. Because I'm not there all day
every day with them. We lived with his family... JUDGE LAKE:
So what he was saying is during that trip,
he claims
you weren't intimate? We were, we were.
At least four times, we were. And the house
that we were staying in, it was my aunt's house
in Mexico, so, it was almost impossible
for us to be intimate. JUDGE LAKE:
When you talk about your lack of trust,
it's real. I can see it in your eyes.
You really don't trust her. Yes. JUDGE LAKE: What in the world has gotten you to the point
where you can't trust
this woman? I've seen text messages
between her
and somebody else. Old times they spent together
and how much fun they had and just leaves me to
one thought and she's talking
to another man. He doesn't understand.
I wouldn't have married him.
I wouldn't... I've been in
so many relationships
throughout my life that I chose him to marry. This is the person
that I chose to marry. This is the person that I chose to spend... And I chose you too. That you were
the only one like... But not as much
as I've caught him
in his phone. We were having sex one night and he rolls over. We haven't even put
our clothes on yet and he's texting
another woman,
he loves her. So you've never seen me text,
"I love you," to anyone else. This was after
I'd seen the messages
that she was sending. So when I'd seen
that she would... That she wasn't...
That she wasn't all the way
faithful with me, of course I'm not gonna be all the way faithful
with somebody else and... He's just started
unlocking his phone
since we got married. He just started
unlocking his phone. His phone has been locked... MATTHEW: That's not true. ...our whole relationship
until around the time about a month and a half
before we got married then he unlocks his phone. That's not true. AMBER: I'm allowed to get
in his phone but his phone stayed locked.
It stayed locked. MATTHEW: My phone did not
have a lock. Well, now, you know, she knows how to get
in your phone. Mr. Thayer, you know,
as I listen to
this testimony, do you think
this is insecurity or infidelity because
they're two different things? The arguments that we had
when she was first pregnant
with Matthew about a month
into the pregnancy is when
she saw those messages and we did actually separate
for about three months. Have you ever been
cheated on in the past? MATTHEW: Yes, I have. Okay. I lost trust in all women
as far as relationships go. But that's not
my fault though. So that's like me saying I've been in a bunch
of relationships. MATTHEW:
But the things that you say when we get
in arguments, though. That's what
I'm talking about. It is tit-for-tat and I get petty sometimes.
I absolutely do. But a lot of this stuff
that you've done, what you need to realize,
a lot of the stuff that you've done
is hurt me a lot and I'm tired of being hurt. I'm tired of walking
on egg shells. I'm tired of being miserable.
It's not fair. It's not fair
to my daughter... MATTHEW: But you're not
the only one that's
hurt though. It's not fair to our son.
It's not fair at all. I wouldn't have named
your son after you. I wouldn't have
gave you a Jr. <i> if I am 1,000% sure
that these are your kids.</i> MATTHEW: <i> And that's why
I'm here so I can
find that out for sure.</i> JUDGE LAKE: Ms. Thayer,
you are in court today saying you have never cheated
on your husband. I have never cheated on him. The only time
that I've ever messed with anybody else
is the break that
he's talking about because what happened was,
when I saw that text in his phone that
I told you about, I asked him about it,
he shrugged
his shoulders like it didn't matter
and that's all
that I got out of him. I didn't get a why...
I asked him why
he was doing it. "Do you not
wanna be together? "What is the issue?" MATTHEW: I did tell you
when we had that argument. Because I've been
a single mom for so long that I'm not trying to go into another relationship
and then just be like, "Oh, well, I'm gonna be
a single mom again." That's not what I want.
He's attached
to my other kids. And that's why
these DNA results
mean so much because it's not just
about Matthew and Kaydence. AMBER: <i> This is not boyfriend
and girlfriend.</i> <i> We took vows to be together.</i> I'm gonna stand by those. I'm going to stand by those.
These are his kids. This is gonna make
or break us. Because you're prepared,
Mr. Thayer, that you are gonna leave
if these children
are not yours? Yes, Your Honor. I'm supporting
three other kids
that aren't mine and I don't wanna feel played
in this situation to where I'm supporting
the whole household and nobody's related to me. Nobody's my seed and to carry on
my legacy, so... JUDGE LAKE: All right,
we're gonna get to the DNA results
in just a moment. But first, I wanna get
to the lie detector. So we did, in fact, have her meet with
a licensed polygraph expert. <i> Let me have those
lie detector results, please.</i> RON: <i> Yes, Judge.</i> JUDGE LAKE: <i> Thank you.</i> Now, Ms. Thayer,
I have to ask you, is there anything you'd like to tell us
before I read these results? Like I said,
the only people that I messed with
was during the break
that we had that he's talking about
where I moved out. JUDGE LAKE: Okay. Ms. Thayer, you were asked,
"In the last four years, "have you had sexual contact
with anyone "other than the two men
you have
previously disclosed?" You said, "No." The lie detector determined you were being deceptive. Questions number two, "Since the first time
you had sex
with Matthew Sr., "have you had
sexual intercourse
with anyone "other than him,
since then?" You said, "No." The lie detector determined you were being deceptive. Mr. Thayer? MATTHEW: See?
These are giving me
my answers. So that just puts more... In fact,
more doubt in my mind that these kids aren't mine. Because Matthew doesn't look
anything like me,
neither does Kaydence. AMBER: They look
just like you, everything, the chin,
the cheeks, the shape of the face,
everything. Well, obviously,
you're lying, so we can't
believe you. Wow. So, Ms. Thayer,
this is difficult. Now, you pretty much failed
both questions on the lie detector test and that's why you're here
in court today. I understand. You heard the phrase,
"The truth shall
set you free." JUDGE LAKE:
I'm going to ask you
to free yourself and tell the truth. What is the truth? Because I could see
that smirk on your face? I've never cheated on him, but like I said,
during the break, it may have been
more than two people, but I've never
cheated on him. I've never cheated on him
while we're together. MATTHEW:
She's lying about that.
What else is she lying about? The two... Okay. So this is going way beyond. (EXHALES DEEPLY) I see your body language. I sit in this bench
day after day and I know when people
aren't being fully honest. It's all over you. MATTHEW: And I see that too,
Your Honor. Is there anything else
you need to say? I mean, I've done stuff
to hurt him because he hurt me
and in the end, I'm only hurting them
and that's it. <i> So I mean, right now,</i> <i> it's not about me,
it's not about my feelings,</i> it's not about us,
it's about our kids and I need him to know
that these are his kids. And the last
four years of my life
weren't just wasted. JUDGE LAKE: So,
as you talk about
doing things to hurt him because you felt hurt,
do you really know who both of these children,
who their father is? I am 1,000% sure
that they are his kids. MATTHEW: And we've heard that
a thousand times too. So, we know that the kids
looking like me is not always
a 100% accurate. And then, when people say
they're 1,000% sure, it always goes left. At the end of the day
if they're not mine, I'm not gonna be
with somebody I can't trust. And hopefully, this fixes it because I do have
feelings for her, Your Honor, and I've spent, like,
the last four years
of my life... I've lost
my family behind her, because they don't approve
of her having multiple kids. They don't approve
of my color, my skin color. It's not...
I've been harassed in my inbox on Facebook, I've been harassed
face to face by his family
about the color of my skin. I've witnessed
all those instances,
Your Honor. I've told them all and that's one of the reasons
why I don't talk to them because if
they can't approve... If they can't be happy
for me because I'm happy,
then they... I don't need them in my life. (APPLAUSE) Blood or not, I mean... So, you've pretty much
chosen her over your family? Yes, Your Honor.
Behind these kids because I thought
I was gonna have a family and I thought I was gonna
be able to build
something with her. But the doubts in my mind,
I need to put to rest. All right.
That's what we're here
to do and I'll say the stakes
could not be any higher here. Ron, I'd like to go
to the results, please. We have two results. Here you go, Your Honor. Thank you, sir. The first result
is for Kaydence. In the case of<i>
Thayer v. Thayer,</i> when it comes
to 19-month-old
Kaydence Thayer, it has been determined
by this court, Mr. Thayer,
you are the father. AMBER: I told you. One of them.
One of the two. AMBER: I told you. We still need Matthew. Just because one of them
is mine doesn't mean
I'm gonna stay. JUDGE LAKE:
It's the first time
I've seen you smile today. Yeah, I'm happy. I have the second result
for you. Are you ready? Yes. JUDGE LAKE: These results
were prepared
by DNA Diagnostics and they read as follows. In the case
of <i> Thayer v. Thayer,</i> when it comes to
three-year-old
Matthew Thayer Jr., it has been determined
by this court... JUDGE LAKE: Mr. Thayer, you are the father. I told you. (APPLAUSE) Can I give her...
Can I give her a hug? JUDGE LAKE: Absolutely. I love you. I love you too. MATTHEW: I'm at ease now. JUDGE LAKE: You look like it. (CHUCKLES) Yeah. JUDGE LAKE:
I could see you over there, you were a bundle of nerves. You really didn't know? No. And that put
a bigger wedge between us. I think counseling
would help that out. JUDGE LAKE:
And we have that for you. I wanna say this to you both, you're still married. MATTHEW: Yes. So you still have
a shot at this. I do wanna have a family
and I do wanna build with her and this just
solidifies the fact that I'm not
gonna go nowhere. JUDGE LAKE: Good.
A marriage is a time that we really
are combining the lives and the experiences
of two people trying to come together
and it can be difficult. But most importantly,
there's power in what you say. Your words,
they either build
a relationship or they can break it. And I see that now. JUDGE LAKE: So you see that. I think you did. And I'm sorry for the things
that I've done to you and I apologize for even
giving you suspicions of them not being
your children. (SNIFFLES) JUDGE LAKE: Wonderful. I'm sorry for everything I've done to you
in the past as well. And so, look at all
that you have
to look forward to. I wish you
all the very best of luck.
You have a beautiful family. BOTH: Thank you. Court is adjourned.
