- [Announcer] Your
support helps us bring you programs you love. Go to wyomingpbs.org,
click on Support and become a sustaining member
or an annual member. It's easy and secure. Thank you. - If you Google Frank Abagnale you may see terms
like con artist, check forger or imposter. Or you might see the
term security consultant. In cooperation
with AARP Wyoming, Frank Abagnale visits
Casper to gives us hints on how to protect
ourselves from fraud. You've seen his character in
the movie Catch Me If You Can. Frank Abagnale on the
next Wyoming Chronicle. (upbeat dramatic music) - [Female Announcer]
Funding for this program was provided in part by the Wyoming Public Television
Endowment and viewers like you. (gentle music) - [Male Announcer] Funding
for Wyoming Chronicle is provided in part by The
Dragicevich Foundation. Supporting the work of the
Wyoming Community Foundation. (gentle music) - And we're pleased
on Wyoming Chronicle to be joined by Frank Abagnale. Frank, welcome to
Wyoming Chronicle. Our viewers know
you I think like many viewers across the
country, many Americans, because of the
movie and the fame that you've achieved
from Catch Me If You Can from a book your wrote. It was turned into a
movie, a Broadway play, a television series that talked about your early
life as a forger, con artist and really a criminal but welcome to
Wyoming Chronicle. - Thank you glad to be here. It's a pleasure.
- You bet. You're here because you're
assisting AARP Wyoming and AARP nationally
to give good advice to people to protect
themselves from fraud and from criminal imposters like you were at one
time in your life. And we're gonna get to
many tips that you have for our viewers here
in just a little bit. - [Frank] Sure. - But before we begin,
take us back Frank if you would to the
time in your life where you were 16 years old. You need to make some,
you made some decisions that were family based
and you were on your own and you begin a short
life as a criminal. - Yeah when I was 16 years
old my parents separated and I found myself
in a court room with my parents and the
judge telling me that I had to decide which parent
I was going to live with and as a 16 year old
boy I couldn't do that, I couldn't find a way
to do that so I ran out of the courtroom and I ended up as a runaway in New York City. Back in the 60's there
were a lot of runaways but a lot of them got caught
up in the Haight-Ashbury, the hippie scene,
the drug scene, and I realized real
quick that the only way I'm gonna survive is if
people don't think I'm 16. They're gonna have to believe
I'm a lot older than that. So we had a drivers
license at 16. Back then they didn't
have a photo on it. It was an IBM card. So I altered one digit
of my date of birth. I was born in 1948 and I
changed that four to a three, and that made me 10 years
older or 26 years old and I started
writing checks which at first I had some
money in my account and I found it very
easy for me to go in and write a check and so
when the money ran out I kept writing those checks and the checks
started to bounce. Police started looking
for me as a runaway and I realized I have to leave
New York City pretty quickly and one day I happened to
be walking up the street and saw an airline crew
come out of a hotel, and I thought to myself
wow if I could get one of those uniforms then
I could go into the bank as a pilot and say
that I'm out of town and I ran a little short on
cash, could I cash a check? And it would make
it so much easier. Never thinking of anything
else other than just that. Everything I did
was at the moment, never pre-meditated.
- No remorse at the time? No thinking of consequences? - I always tell people who
say you were brilliant, you were a genius, I was
just a kid and I think that was a success
that I had being a kid because I
had no conscience, I had no thoughts
of getting caught, I think because I was so young. I didn't pre-meditate anything. So I didn't sit out
in front of a bank with a $500 check
and say I'm gonna go in and cash this check
so here's my plan, I'll say this and if they
say this then I'll do this. If they do this I'll do that. I just went in and did it. And I think that was all the
fact of being an adolescent. I've always believed
that had I been a little older and I started
doing this at 21 or 25, I wouldn't have done
half the things I did because I would've rationalized
that I'm gonna get caught, it's not possible,
it can't happen. I think because I was young
is why I had so much success doing some of the things I did. - I wondered and we had
talked just briefly earlier, had you been in
a rural area when you were so young
say in Wyoming, that it might've been
much more difficult for you to pull off the con jobs that you were successful
in this big world of anonymity and a big city. Is it, do you agree with that? - Oh I think it would
be much more difficult. I think people are, though
they're a little more trusting they're also know
a little more about who's in town and who the people are that they're talking to, but I also feel that
had I actually gone to a small town and ran
away to a little town, I probably would've
had someone come up and have some pity
on me and say hey, what are you doing here? How come you ran away? Maybe helped me out, maybe
got back on the straight and narrow so I might've
been better off going to a small town even
though I wouldn't have been able to
pull off what I did I probably would've
not gone down that road and kind of been in a small
town other than New York City. - You were finally
arrested in France? - [Frank] Yes. - Did you play the
policeman well in the movie who arrested the,
- Yes (laughs). - Leonardo DiCaprio character.
- Yeah. - Yes I was actually
arrested by the French police on a Interpol warrant
by the Swedish polish. The Swedish Police were
looking me for forgery but they believed
I lived in France. But when the French police
took me into custody they realized that I'd forged
checks all over France. So they refused to honor
the extradition request and the warrant from Sweden so, they convicted me of forgery
and sent me to French prison. So I served time in France. When my sentence was over
I was extradited to Sweden. - And you've written
that that was just an absolutely horrible
experience for you. - Yeah, I have to
say this though. I've been in the French prisons, the Swedish prisons,
the American prisons. When I got to France
now I don't jaywalk, I don't double park. So the truth of the matter
is the French believe that you go to prison
to be punished. You don't go to
prison to live better than people on the street
who haven't broken the law so they don't believe you
live in an air conditioning and have money
paid to you to work and watch television and
have movies on the weekend and miniature golf
and lift weights and do those kind of things so, I really believe of
the three experiences it's the one that
left the most impact to not want to go
back to prison. I don't think that in the
American prison system, people go in there and
live really quite well so there's really
not a thought about if I do this again the
worst that can happen is I'll just go
back to that prison. Once you've been in France, you'll never want to go
back to prison again. So I think in all they have
a better system than we do. - You were finally
incarcerated in America. You then got out
early so to speak by committing to
helping the FBI. - Served four of a
12 year sentence, and the government
came to me and offered to take me out of
prison on the condition I went to work with an
agency of the government and I would simply be being
paroled to that agency. So I'd still have
a parole officer, I would still be serving
out my parole until the remainder of my sentence, and of course I
have to be honest, I know people would love to say, hear me say I saw the light,
I was born again in prison, I was rehabilitated by
the people in prison. I don't really feel
that was the case. I came out of prison. I really didn't think
I was a changed person and once again being
the opportunist I was, I said here's an
opportunity to get out of prison so of
course I said yes. But then I went to work with
the government, with the FBI. This is back in a time
right after Hoover. Clarence Kelly was the director
at the Bureau at the time. They was just white men. Graduates from Yale and Harvard,
lawyers and accountants. It took a long time
to build credibility to be accepted by them, but I realized very quickly
that I was surrounded by the most family loving,
country loving individuals that had tremendous
ethics and character. So everyday that kind
of wore off on you and I met my wife when I was
on an under cover assignment and I think getting
married and having children and bringing children
into the world, all those are the things
that changed my life. I didn't come out
a changed person, being involved with those
things is what changed my life. - And I want to talk
more about you coming into family in
just a little bit. (clears throat) Tell me now if I have
this sequence correct. To Tell The Truth Today Show, Johnny Carson,
your life changed. - Absolutely correct. I went on the Today Show. Nobody picked me, they
picked the other two people. - [Craig] On Tell The Truth? - On To Tell The
Truth, I'm sorry. And then I was on the Today Show back with Tom Brokaw
when he hosted that show, and I was on there
around Christmas to talk about counterfeit money on
behalf of the secret service. So he had up things behind me
that showed counterfeit bills and I was explaining
how you detect a good bill from a bad bill, and towards the end
of the interview he just happened to
say to me now you work with the government but
you come to the government in a very unusual circumstances. So I said yes and
I explained them. Johnny Carson was watching
back on the West Coast and he said to NBC
send me that tape of that guy you had on the show. And they did and so the
next thing I get a call from the Tonight Show and it
was from Johnny's assistant and she said to me
Johnny would consider having you on the
show but you first have to come out
for an interview and we don't pay to
bring you out here. And I said well why would
I go on Johnny Carson? They said, well just
to talk a little bit about your life and
what you do today and how come you do what you do, and so I went out to, I said to her I'm always out
on the West Coast on business. Can I just come
when I'm out there? She said yes. So I went out,
did the interview. They invited me on the
show and I went out and I took my wife
for the first time. We went on the show. My wife was sitting
in the green room. They told me I'd only be on
for maybe four or five minutes. I was gonna be followed
by the Pointer Sisters who were at the peek
of their career. My wife was in the green room
with the Pointer Sisters. They were all dressed in
their gowns and ready to go and I remember the man
that pulls the curtain said to me this
is your first time on the Tonight Show right? I said yes. Well when I open this curtain
and you step out here, this will change your life-- - [Craig] Did you believe him? - Forever. No. And I went on. Johnny Carson does not like to
meet his guests before hand. He wants everything
to be very fresh. So I went out, met him
for the first time. I was very comfortable with him. Did a great interview
and after the few or four minutes de Cordova
who was the producer said Johnny don't forget we
have the Pointer Sisters. After commercial we
need to bring them on. Nope. I'm gonna do the rest
of the show with him and I got to be for
the rest of the show and then he invited me back
and I was on nine times on the show.
- Wow. Wow. I want to ensure our viewers the Pointer Sisters are
not in the green room. We're not-- - Right. - Tonight. Frank (clears throat),
since your life has been in my eyes one of
redemption, is that accurate? - Yes. I know that people
look at my life and they're very
fascinated by all the things I did
between 16 and 21. I recently turned
70 so I look back of course on my life
and what amazes me is the fact that I
did those things. I went to prison, served
my time, paid my debt. Lived in such an
amazing country where you can get out and change
your life if you want to, reconstruct your life. And I was able to get that,
- So it was a chance? - that second chance which is,
- Wow. - which is amazing and I've
worked for the FBI for 42 years. For four decades. I've been married to my
wife for over 40 years. I've brought three
wonderful sons, which one is an FBI
agent into the world. The things that have
happened in my life is where I wake up everyday
and say I cannot believe that these things have
happened in my life since then. So I'm not amazed by what
I did between 16 and 21, but I'm absolutely
overwhelmed and amazed by what's happened to me from
that point on in my life. - And that's really what's
brought you to Wyoming today. - Yes. - Fraud is, in our
world, I've heard you say it's 4,000 times easier
today because of technology for someone to do what you did, 40 years ago or 50 years ago.
- Absolutely. - Even in the world
of technology where we have little radio
chips in our cards and we have passwords
and we have, you set a password
and we get texted back and you have to confirm
that and all those things, fraud is still a big deal and
- Right. - it's a bit deal
for older Americans. - Older Americans and
always remember that, a lot of those
technologies that make us feel good really
don't work very well so passwords are
a 1964 technology. I believe they're
for tree houses. They're not for getting
into a computer. So, that was developed
when I was 16 and here today at 70 we're
still using passwords. So we have to
eliminate passwords. That's one of the real problems we have with technology today. And we're on the
road to doing that. But yes. A lot of technology
has made things a lot easier for the
criminal who just simply uses the technology in their
favor and there's no, a lot of things that
we had the ability to develop but
can be replicated. So we have Russian
gangs that bring in more than 20 billion
dollars a year so they can replicate a chip. There are a lot of things
that get very scary when it comes to
technology because we have the ability now to
shut someones pace maker off but we have to be
within 35 feet of them and pass them by
on the sidewalk. We could assassinate them. - Are you worried about
futuristic dark uses? - Uses of technology.
- Of technology. - The ability now
to stop a vehicle but we have to be within
35 feet of the vehicle. The vehicle has 240 computer components in an
average new car. We can shut the motor
off, turn the airbag on, lock the person in the car, but I'm concerned that
five years from now could I do that from
5,000 miles away? 500 miles away? 100 miles away? And the answer is yes. So I think we're
gonna see cyber which is now always related
to making money and stealing information
will somehow turn black and become more of
a terrorist tool. More of a tool of
harming people. - And I should allow
our viewers to know, you've spent now about
the last 20 years or so working with cyber, - Cyber. - and working with that.
- My first 20 years was all around counterfeiting
of documents so it was developing
security features that went in paper and plastic,
passports, drivers licenses, but the last 20 years has
all been based on technology and I had the great
benefit of getting to work with some technology
companies who as one CEO said, I played chest with Frank, I tell him here's
what I've developed and he says well this
is how I defeat that. So I go back and fit
it and I say here I fixed this and he goes well
I'd still get in this way, so I go back and fix that. And the day that
Frank says to me, I think this is pretty
fool proof for now, then I know I have a product
I can bring to the market and then I use Frank every
year to revet it and review it to make sure that
we haven't found another way to circumvent it. - I'm almost
embarrassed to tell you that in my home I've
got three smart speakers and I can say Alexa do
this or Alexa do that. I know a little
bit about big data. I know what my cellphone does with me when I travel
around that I'm not acutely aware of.
- Right. - How worried should
I be as a consumer with all of these
new technologies that come to the market
when the back door security end of things may not be
tested and I may not know. - They're not tested and
most companies develop a technology like
you just spoke about and basically they don't
go to the final point of saying how would someone
misuse this technology because they rush it to
market to make money. They don't vet the product. So that product obviously
that we're talking about in your kitchen is
voice activated, so a hacker can easily
manipulate that at home. - Is it voice activated
or is it always activated? - It's always activated
- Sure. - but activated by voice to
start picking up information. So, a hacker can,
and has done this, can simply go in and
take that and tweak it a little bit so that they
hear everything you say. So, we've had cases
where a lawyer working on a multi billion
dollar civil case is saying to his wife
personal information about that case
and the other side, - Oh my goodness. - has manipulated to
learn that information from that device.
- Oh my goodness. - So again, I always
encourage companies to stop at that point and
ask the simple question, how would someone
misuse this before you put it in the marketplace? - Well what do you
tell consumers today? Many people watching they
have a smart speaker. They certainly have a cellphone. But they have technology,
it helps them in their life. - Helps them in their life. - [Craig] But what
do you tell them? - But I let them know
that their Samsung TV, their remote control, their
refrigerator that tells them when they're out of milk, all those are devices
that can be hacked into and are hacked into everyday. So sometimes we have
too much technology. I personally do not need my refrigerator to
talk to my toaster. They've been getting
along for years without having a conversation. - Based on what you told
me I want to go back and resurrect my dads 1958
Chevrolet Apache Pickup and drive it around
- That's it. - [Craig] and nothing else and, but I want to be
progressive too. - You want to be
progressive but you gotta, you have to ask yourself
those questions. So, I have security
cameras around my house but I know that those
security cameras are encrypted so that someone
can hack into them and watch what's
going on or outside. I don't have any in my
house but outside my house. But again we buy cameras and
we don't ask those questions. We install them
'cause we like to look on our iPhone and
see what's going on around our house
while we're away. But we're not
asking the question, who else can look at what's
going on around my house or who can hack
into those cameras? - We're in Casper,
Wyoming and earlier today you shared with many listened
from an AARP broadcast tips to protect themselves
from credit card scams and other scams that
seniors in particular are afraid of and concerned
about yet fall victim to. What is your advice
to folks that kind of lived a more
compartmentalized
life in their home but their phone rings and
they go to their mailbox? - Yes, and scams work
because the majority of people are honest and
because they're honest they don't have
a deceptive mind. So when their phone
rings and it says that it's the Casper Police
Department on the caller ID they naturally assume it's
the Casper Police Department. - [Craig] It says
it right there. - Right there. So, they don't realize that
that's easily manipulated. So when they start
talking they believe they're speaking to someone
at the police department. What I have found
in my career is that scams of all kinds of
scams of all nature have two significant points
and that's the red flags. And at same point in
the scam they either have to ask you
personal information such as what's your
social security number, your date of birth, what's
your bank account number? Or they're asking you for money. And the money must
be paid immediately. So you cant mail it to them, you can't come down
and give it to them. You have to give them
a credit card number or give them your
bank account number. - You'd better do it now. Yeah. - Those are the two
red flags in every scam whether it's a
grandparents scam, the sweepstakes scam,
the internet scam, the, it doesn't matter. Publishers clearing house scam. - And I've heard all of them. It's awful.
- Yes. Yeah. So, if you remember
those two things it helps you a lot in not
falling through those scams. When it comes to robocalls, the
longer you stay on the phone the more calls you're gonna
get because they're timed. So if you hang up immediately, they're not gonna
keep calling you. - I've thought that
I'll waste their time and at least get
something out of it-- - [Frank] And start
talking to them. - And play along and
knowing full well I'll never give
them anything but that's the wrong thing to do. - That's just gonna
get you more calls. I tell people that I'm
not on social media, but if I had, I have three
sons and five grandchildren that are so I teach
them to use it properly. I tell them not
to put a straight
photograph of themselves on their like a passport,
graduation picture, because they can
capture that image and use it for identification. There are many softwares
that are out there that are facial
recognition pit pat, find a face, that I
can take your picture and then find your Facebook page and go to your Facebook page. - So what you're telling me, I could be at a restaurant
and someone could-- - [Frank] Take a picture of you. - Take a picture of me-- - [Frank] And then
find you on Facebook. - And I'm in Houston and
here we go and have nearly-- - Find you on Facebook. - [Craig] Everything
that I need-- - Now, if I go to
your Facebook page and you happen to tell
me where you were born, and your date of birth, that's 98% of me
stealing your identity. I really just need to
know those two things so I tell people first of all, if you're gonna put
a photo on Facebook, it's a photo of
you and your dog, you and your friends, you playing soccer or baseball, and if you're gonna
put on Facebook you never put your date of birth or where you were
born on Facebook. - Frank I've heard you say
this and it surprised me. If someone steals my identity, I have a bank account,
I have assets, a child's identity, a babies
identity is even more valuable. - Absolutely. - And I don't understand that. Why is that? - I have been writing for years about children's identity
theft but it's only been taken seriously the
last couple of years. But I realized early on that
if I could steal the identity say of a newborn child
coming out of the hospital by getting their
social security number, I can then become that child
or sell that information with that number over
and over again for years because that child
is not gonna use their social
security number 'til they're 17, 18, 19 years old. If I even steal the
social security number of a 14 year old I
have four or five years before that child is
gonna go seek credit or try to get a loan or use
that social security number. So criminals realize
the younger the victim, the more valuable that
piece of information is. So, on the dark web a new born
or a 14 year old's identity, it's much more valuable than
a 62 year old man's identity. - This stuff will
have happened for 10, 15 years and no one
will have known. - [Frank] Known. - And it's almost too late. - I cant tell you
how many emails I get from young children
who say to me I graduated from high
school this year, I applied to my college
for a student loan and they said you already
had the student loan and you defaulted.
- Oh my goodness. - And I try to tell
them that's impossible. I just graduated from high
school but someone had used their social security
number and their identity. - And have the cash. Frank we have about
five minutes left today. Is there a promise in the
future of more security? Blockchain today in technology
we've heard a lot about it. We think the industry is now
starting to implement it. Is it going to be
some time though where that provides
a level of protection for something that people don't even understand
what it is today? - Yeah I think
blockchain will be great for keeping accurate records, for financial purposes, for
banks and accounting firms, people like that. I think we're 10
years away from it actually being seen and
used around the country. There are social issues. For example on a witness
protection program I wouldn't be able
to do that anymore because you would always
know who the person was. Someone changing their sex. The same thing. I'd always know
what their sex is. So their are social issues
attached to blockchain. But I think the
concept of blockchain, the security of blockchain
outweighs all of that so it's just a
matter of studying it and using it and implementing
it in a proper way. So I think it'll be
quite awhile before we actually see it
being used that way. But obviously if
you're the state and you're thinking
ahead that new, and you're thinking about
where's blockchain going? It is obviously eventually going to be a good technology. - Frank you've worked so hard
in the last 45 to 50 years. Have you righted your wrong? Do you feel that you,
have you been able to forgive yourself
for the activities that you conducted
as a teenager? - I do but as you
know there's people that always judge you
and they judge you by your past and
you have to live with people judging
you all the time. So I still get the,
somebody I talk to says oh I better watch my wallet or things of that
nature but I just-- - You did short
change Johnny Carson. - Yes that's right. - That's right.
- Short changed Johnny Carson. (Craig laughs) So I think when
you make a mistake in your life you
have to live with it. So I get a lot of emails
from young men and women that say to me what advice
can you give a 15 year old? And I do answer them and
I write back and say look, people will tell you
that life is short but life is really not short. Life is kinda long. I'm 70. I might live to be 80
if I'm lucky or 90. Someone from my sons generation
might live to be 100. When you make a mistake in life, when you mistreat someone, when you deceive someone, when you cheat on someone, when you lie to someone, that eventually
comes back to really become a burden in your life. When you're young and you did it you think nothing of it
but as you grow older you start to think about
that girl you cheated on or that relationship
you lied in, or something you did that was
illegal that hurt somebody and that's starts
to become a burden so I do live with the burden
of the things that I did and even I could
say to myself well they were big
corporation and banks. I really didn't
cheat any individual. I still did something
so what I try to do in my life is I've
turned down three pardons from three sitting
presidents of United States. I do not believe that a piece of paper can excuse my actions. I believe in the end I will
be judged on my actions and so I believe
in the end people will judge me based
on what did he do with his life in the outside
and how has life turned out? That's the only thing
that's important. - Frank you see so
many young people, old people, men and women, bolted to their phone. Again using technology, what advice did you
or have you given your family and
how did your love for your family
really impact then the rest of your life to maybe, you don't use a cellphone
as much as I think that many people do.
- No. - And to have those
personal interactions that maybe might help folks. - Yeah and I'm
not a, I've never, I'm not involved in any
social media whatsoever. I personally believe
probably not in my lifetime, but 20 years from
now we will look back at Facebook and Instagram
and social media and realize that that was
a very bad experiment. Anytime that you start
controlling the minds of two billion people
and the psychology of two billion people
and what they think and what they read
and what they believe, that gets very very
scary especially when most of it is inaccurate
and not correct. So I'm very concerned
about how social media has corrupted the minds
of a lot of young people and the way we think
and the way we act and the way we see the world. So I think that we'll wake
up to the fact one day that that was not
a good experiment and we'll see social
media out of our lives. - You have in our last
few seconds a website, that people can learn more about protecting themselves
from fraud. Tell us how to access that
and what's out there for them? - Well on my website which
is just my name abagnale.com I sell no products or
provide any service. It's strictly an
educational site. So because the most
of my work is dealing with banks and financial
institutions and corporations, there's a lot on there
about embezzlement, counterfeiting,
check forgery and things that they're
worried about. But with AARP we developed
the Fraud Watch Network and I developed
video tapes for that. I do a Podcast every week
out of Washington D.C. that people can tune into that
deals with consumer scams. The things that consumers
are worried about. And we'd have a Fraud
Watch Network hotline that people can call
that hotline or they can just go to /watchnetwork.com and see those videos, learn
about all the newest scams, and so I encourage people
to be a little proactive and remember you can't
just rely on the police or the government or
the bank to protect you. You have to be a little smarter, you have to be a little wiser
than you did 20 years ago. So you need to be a
little more proactive about protecting
yourself and your assets. - That's wonderful advice. Frank thank you so much
for coming to Wyoming. - Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.
- I appreciate it and thank you for being
on Wyoming Chronicle. - Thank you. (upbeat dramatic music)
