Francis Fukuyama: Identity and the Politics of Resentment

well thank you very much George and welcome  everybody to the Commonwealth Club and as is our   custom we will start with the gavels my favorite  part good evening and welcome to the Commonwealth   Club of California you can find the Commonwealth  Club online at Commonwealth Club org on Facebook   and Twitter and on the club's YouTube channel  I'm John Diaz I'm the editorial page editor for   the San Francisco Chronicle and your moderator  for tonight's program it is now my pleasure to   introduce today's distinguished guest France  Francis Fukuyama a noted political scientist   senior fellow at Stanford University's Freeman  spogli Institute for International Studies and   author of the new book that the man identity the  demand for dignity and the politics of resentment   dr. Fukuyama has written widely on issues  concerning political development and international   political economy his background includes working  at the RAND Corporation and serving as a member   of the US State Department during the Reagan  and George HW Bush administration's in his new   book identity the demand for dignity and the  politics of resentment dr. Fukuyama addresses   the issues of identity politics which will be  the subject of our conversation today he argues   that our connection to personal identities has  disconnected us from universal understandings   of human dignity he agrees that identity  is fundamentally democratic and is indeed   a pillar of fledgling democracies however he  says narrow identities can pit groups against   one another and manipulate people's ability to  recognize or seek out mutually inclusive solutions   to discuss all this please give a Commonwealth  Club welcome to dr. Francis Fukuyama thank you so dr. Fukuyama first of all welcome it's  a pleasure terrific book wouldn't maybe you   could start by giving us a sense of what inspired  this book which seems particularly timely right   yeah well I mean frankly it was the elections of  2016 I study international democratic democratic   institutions around the world but it was becoming  increasingly evident that the United States was   becoming one of the more problematic democracies  with the election of Donald Trump and the rise   of populism and it was clear that this was not  just an isolated phenomenon it was behind the   brexit vote you've got populist regimes now  in Hungary and Poland and Turkey you've got   anti-immigration parties all over Europe and  so I think this is a threat to democracy these   populist parties are usually led by charismatic  figures who are very anti institutional they say   I've got a direct mandate from the people and  therefore I don't need judges or you know the   mainstream media enemies of the people and that  you know is dangerous to democracy so that was   really I think the motive I wish strike I this  summer I went to Malaysia and the Philippines   to look at the pipe lism and identity politics  there as you rightly note this is something that   is going on throughout throughout the world what  is the common thread here is it that it worked one   place so others are emulating it or is there  something going on internationally and that's   causing people to engage in identity politics  well I think that there are a couple of common   triggers so there's a psychological basis for  it so identity is based on the idea that I have   this inner self it may be hidden other people do  not respect it and what I demand of other people   is that they recognize the dignity of that inner  self and it can be defined by me as an individual   but also by membership in a group by a nation by  a religion and that's what leads you know the the   assertion into politics now why it started in  you know this past decade I think it varies in   different parts of the world but in the developed  world I think its reaction to globalization you've   had this 40-year period of a liberal international  order where you've had speeding up of the movement   of goods people services investment all over the  world it's made the world very rich but it's not   made everybody rich and in particular working  classes in rich countries have lost employment   and lost ground to elites and I think that was  really the trigger in fact after the financial   crisis I kept wondering why there wasn't a  populist explosion given what had happened it   just happened though that the explosion took this  identity form and it came out on the right rather   than on the left because it was also a company  and I think by you know really big movements of   people across international borders and so it's  very much tied up with the immigration issue and   opposition to the kind of rapid cultural change  that I think many countries have experienced   one of the things we've seen here in the United  States is when you talk about identity politics   is certainly economics or a factor but there's  a lot of different identities that are being   exploited by candidates in different ways sure  well so I in the book I give a little history   of the modern form of identity politics I think  that it really starts on the left in the 1960s   as a consequence of all the big social movements  so you have the civil rights movement you have the   feminist movement you have the LGBT movement for  the disabled Native Americans all of these groups   experienced marginalization by mainstream American  society they were not recognized they did not have   adequate you know recognition of that inner  dignity you think about so me too has been a I   would say rather prominent issue especially in the  past week and if you think about what that what's   driving that there is an economic component to  it but it basically is a form of dignity politics   because women want to be taken you know seriously  as human beings not as sexual objects not as you   know playthings and so forth in the way that men  have often treated them and the demand is that   they be recognized and so all of those I think  are driven by absolutely just you know real social   problems and it has it has sort of multiplied  and divided into you know ever finer groups and   I think what's happened with the rise of Donald  Trump is that that form of protest has now   migrated over to the right so you now get white  nationalists and you know and and and I think   people that some in many cases are not necessarily  racist or xenophobes but there are many white   working-class Americans who feel unrecognized  they feel invisible that the elites really have   not paid much attention to deindustrialization to  the outsourcing of jobs to you know their decline   the opioid crisis that's killed 72,000 Americans  you know in 2017 did not get front-page treatment   you know by it by a lot of the mainstream media  until you know until the election so all of those   I think are another form of identity that has now  spread you know throughout the political spectrum   can you can you really trace it that way though to  the left to the right you mentioned migrating to   the right with Donald Trump but in the 50s we had  Joe McCarthy we certainly had other demagogues and   and you know even even here in California Pete  Wilson in 1994 running for reelection basically   vilified immigrants very successfully - in a  come-from-behind campaign is it's it hasn't always   cleanly gone left and right has it well no so it's  absolutely correct that there have always been   racists and you know the John Birch Society and  so forth let Wallace you know plenty of them but   I do think that the new form of it is different in  several respects but you know the main one is it   takes that identity framing that developed on  the left that is to say you get you know kind   of working class white Americans that say you  know we're victims we have been ignored by the   mainstream society you know we're like a victim  eyes minority that's invisible to the rest of   you know the mainstream and that's something new I  mean if you are a white American 50 years ago you   wouldn't have thought of yourself as a member  of a special group of called white people you   know that had this this funny status you just say  I'm an American whereas now I think you know the   framing that's a victimization that developed on  the Left quite legitimately is now being borrowed   by you know by people that used to be part of of  the mainstream and then the issue of political   correctness I mean this is where I think it's very  clear that you know there was a response that if   you think about why Donald Trump has managed  to get away with the stuff that he's gotten   away with you know insulting Mexicans you know  assaulting women all of these things that should   have sunk other politicians part of his appeal  is precisely that he's not politically correct   that he's unafraid to and and the political  correctness is a product of identity politics   it's not being able to say anything that would be  taken or interpreted as denigrating the status or   the dignity of a particular group and he revels  in doing that I mean he you know and I think that   you know that's that kind of response is something  new in our politics I mean you hear so many people   talk about well what they like about Donald Trump  is he says what he thinks is if and by implication   that's well that's what his supporters think as  well how much of that is is Donald J Trump and   and how much of this is a fundamental change in  American politics well so he was really brilliant   especially in his use of Twitter because when  he tweets early in the morning everybody knows   that that's really him right I mean with George  W Bush Obama they they use Twitter but it but he   knew that they had a big committee of people  that was vetting everything they said and it   wasn't really their innermost thoughts and so he's  practicing you know and that's what's at the core   of identity politics I've got this inner authentic  self that's what really is has the moral valuation   the rest of society are a bunch of hypocrites and  and you know people that that you know are wrong   about their their understanding of me and so he's  practicing this politics or ethics of authenticity   you know he's the real he's the real deal now  whether it's just him I think it's not I think   it's a much deeper thing there's been some very  interesting books written in the past few years   like Arlie Hochschild at Berkeley sociologists  didn't interviewed a lot of Tea Party supporters   in rural Louisiana and this was written you know  before the election she has a central metaphor   that heard respondents envision standing on a line  leading to a little house in the distance that   said the American dream and they're all waiting  to get into this house and then all of a sudden   they see people cutting in line in front of them  so they're you know African Americans women Syrian   refugees you know immigrants and they think that  that's you know very unfair and so I think that   this kind of resentment by you know especially  working-class you know members of the former   you know majority community in the United States  has been brewing it's been accelerated by their   economic and social decline but it's now burst  forth you know in in this particular form and we   just were you know it was our luck that you got  this pretty clever politician that saw that and   exploited it and used it to get to the White House  do you think we've lost our sense of national   identity as Americans I mean there was certainly  a time you're looking at the Supreme Court fight   there have been a number of appointees who have  you know usually the vote would typically be in   the 90s in a 100 member Senate for a confirmation  even somebody who was fairly ideologically defined   now we're talking about there may be one or two  possibly at the most Republicans who defect and   possibly none who and and you look at things like  when it came to issues like you know solving a   budget crisis instead of a government shutdown or  or the u.s. going to to war where people tend to   do rally because we're Americans and because  we had common goals if we lost that no we've   completely I mean the polarization has been fed  directly by this form of identity politics because   one of the bad things about identity is that it  tends to morally divide the world into the people   that are in my identity group and then everybody  else that's not and you know the authentic people   in my group are the good people and everybody else  is bad and that makes for a very different kind of   politics because it's hard to compromise under  those circumstances you're dealing with moral   categories rather than just how do you split the  economic pie and I think that national so actually   national identity is one of my solutions to this  because I do think we need to get back to an idea   of an overarching identity you know so identities  can be extremely small you know I mean you have   this proliferation of gender pronouns these days  so you can pick any one of a dozen different you   know gender pronouns to identify yourself but you  can also construct them in a large way and I think   one of the things leaders in this country have not  been doing is emphasizing things that Americans   hold in common which I believe should be something  like a civic identity meaning not tied to race   identity or religion tied to political values tied  to belief in the Constitution belief in the rule   of law belief in a principle of human equality  is in the Declaration of Independence and that   is a identity that's really being chipped away and  honestly it's by both the left and the right right   so on the left there are some identitarian --zz  that say no actually the history of the United   States is one of patriarchy and racism and you  know and then on the right what I didn't expect   to see in my lifetime as people trying to drag  the united states back into an ethnically based   I'm inside literally I went to the office on  Monday and I picked up by my voicemail and the   first message was from a very angry woman who  said you know mr. Fujiyama I read your book and   you say you know the Constitution doesn't define  who the American people I'll tell you who they   are they're people that fought in the revolution  and their descendants you know and all you people   that came later you know have really been messing  this up and you know and I really do think that   you you they're they're people that thought that  in the past but I just think that unfortunately   you know it's become much more common now to think  that way in in the u.s. so you know the threat is   coming in both directions although when you talk  about things like the institutions of democracy   rule of law freedom of the press all these  things are being undermined on almost a daily   basis by the president the United States well yes  I mean that's the you know he's a classic I think   populist demagogue I mean he made this remarkable  statement at the Republican National Convention   when he was nominated you know he said I alone  understand your problems and I alone can fix them   so you got to go back to like Mussolini you know  to find a politician who spoke like that and that   is what makes him anti institutional because if he  represents the American people then he can define   who's the enemy of the that that happens to be  you right so I've read yeah and and and you know   he therefore does not like any check-and-balance  institution that gets in the way of his carrying   out this mandate that he's got from the American  people and I think that's a kind of unique danger   to our system that really has not you know no  other president in my lifetime has really gone   in that direction you certainly remember that  very authoritarian statement during during the   convention but even more recently when President  Trump made the made the he was a rally and   basically said everything you see and you hear and  the media is not happening I mean that you know   that that's taken away one of our common sources  of information in speaking of the media which it   which has certainly evolved from what it once was  when you had like the three network Nightly News   is and and you had a few major newspapers that  were driving driving the agenda people don't   have that common source of information what am i  one of my friends is a political consultant calls   it the iPod ization of news for people just like  in your iPod if you like a certain genre music   that's probably what you're going to listen to  you know people are watching Fox News which I   do occasionally to see what is being being said I  mean that that's that certainly has to be a factor   in this identity politics that people look for  that identity in their sources of information no   I think that's right I think the rise of social  media has is almost perfectly suited to promote   identity politics because you know it used to  be that before social media if you had some   crackpot theory you know like you live here in San  Francisco and you've got some crackpot theory you   know right-wing conspiracy theory you're not  gonna find very many people walking around the   Embarcadero that are going to share your views  but then you get online and it turns out there's   a like a thousand other people around the United  States that believe this completely insane story   that that you believe and that reinforces you  know you and you think you know well actually   you know I'm right on this so I think the rise  of social media has really abetted this kind of   compartmentalization into these so-called filter  bubbles of people who you know reinforce their own   of you know strongly held views you know one of  the things I think the is we as you talked about   the migration of identity politics to the right  one of the things the right I think has done and   president has done fairly effectively is kind  of point to the other side as as the purveyors   of identity politics like they're not for you  they're only for the immigrants they're only for   you you know for women women's groups or whatever  they're beholden to organized labor it's etc and   in a recently our u.s. senator Kamala Harris  actually had a speech in defense of identity   politics that it's okay that these groups that  maybe historically have been ignored are getting   a voice well so let me make something clear I  don't think there's anything wrong with you know   african-americans women gays and lesbians pushing  back so every one of them has in fact or every   individual in a group like that has a different  lived experience that's different from that of   other people and so those forms of discrimination  are specific to these groups in fact they're   specific to subgroups you know within them and  if they want to push back about police violence   or you know sexual assault that's something that's  very important to do so there's nothing wrong with   that process that's simply a process of mobilizing  for social justice but I think you know to me the   the issue though is that well that process can go  wrong under a couple of different circumstances   so when your group identity you start to believe  become so overriding that it determines what you   think about you know politics society culture in  a determinative way then that begins to undercut   this liberal principle that we are individuals  you know who think for ourselves responsible for   our own you know decisions and not you know and we  get our state is not as individuals and not just   because we're members of certain groups into which  we're into which were born and then I I think you   know really in order to have a democracy you  have to have a common Democratic identity right   you have to believe that your basic institutions  legitimate you know you don't have to agree with   other people but you have to believe that the way  that you select leaders the way that you enact   laws is a fundamentally just process and that you  will accept you know losing an election or you'll   accept you know policy that you don't like as long  as that overall framework exists and unfortunately   the degree of polarization right now is getting  to the point where people are increasingly you   know contesting that I'd be interested in your  impression as someone who has worked in a couple   of administrations is to when I look at it like  over my lifespan I really see three presidents who   have had an ability to really transcend ideal  ideology to really reach out to groups that   traditionally did not vote for their party did not  vote for candidates like them hmm when obviously   John F Kennedy Ronald Reagan I would say as well  and then Barack Obama it almost looked like we   were moving into a I mean who among us twenty  years ago we didn't thought that we would have   seen an african-american president in our lifetime  but all three of those presidents had that ability   to to sort of transcend their their natural base  if you will to use a word that I hate so much now   no that's right and I think that you know in a  way Obama I mean his signature achievement was   the Affordable Care Act which in my view is the  way that progressive people ought to think about   you know social justice it ought to be in terms  of these Universal programs but unfortunately you   know the celebration of a post-racial America was  really premature and you know I hate to say but I   think race has become you know it's not only not  disappeared as an issue but it's really become   one that has defined a lot of politics so the  Republican Party has been moving over the last 20   years to being the party of white people and the  Democratic Party has been moving to being a party   of minorities plus professional women and that's  not a good way to organize our politics I think   and it's certainly not good for the Republican  Party as we've seen here in California it's   the demographics of California have shifted the  Republicans now are third in in voter registration   behind Democrats declined the state and then  Republicans are down basically to one out of   four voters in California mm-hmm no that's true I  think that the Democrats though really have a big   choice in front of them you know in the future  because they have won elections by mobilizing   their identity groups and so if you went to  Hillary Clinton's website you know she didn't   have like one or two big ideas I mean there's  like 15 of them reflecting you know the particular   demands of these particular identity groups and  it's understandable why Democratic politicians   do that because that's the way you mobilize you  know all the activists live in those identity   groups and that's the way you get people out to  the polls and so forth however but you know one of   the consequences of that strategy though has been  to drive a lot of white voters especially white   working-class voters away from the Democratic  Party you know this is this didn't begin in 2016   you know this has been happening ever since Ronald  Reagan but that really accounts for the loss of   these big industrial states in the electoral  college you know Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin   and I think the big choice that the party has to  make is whether in the future it proceeds down   that route of mobilizing those identity groups  with the activists or whether it tries to win   back some of those white voters I mean so just for  instance I mean in a week with with a Cavanaugh   decision you know hanging over us you have to  remember that a majority of white women voted   for Donald Trump in 2016 you know which is quite  remarkable for all of the insulting things he said   and did about women still a majority of white  women voted because so it means that for them   you know his politics you know and I'm it could  be driven by a lot of things by economics by just   party loyalty but all of those things overrode  you know the the gender issues and so they're   not determinative you know for an important group  of voters so that's you know that's one of the   considerations I think you know people on the  progressive side really have to have to think   about how much do you think the Internet in in  social media in particular has to do with this   phenomenon of identity politics when I talk to  political consultants and they talk about how they   do advertising I mean gone are the days when they  want to do generic advertising to the whole public   they want to buy basically from social media  groups social media providers they will find out   exactly you know which voters are or which which  users are following which things and then from   there they can extrapolate which other my friends  are likely to do it I mean it's much more easy to   exploit then I remember back in the day supposedly  when when Phil Burton was doing redistricting he   would send aids out to neighborhoods and say let  me know what people are driving because I can   tell by you know whether they have pickup trucks  or BMWs whether they didn't vote Republican or   Democrat right it's a lot more sophisticated now  no it is and you know it reflects the fact that   these demographic characteristics do determine  the way people in the aggregate vote however it   does seem to me that it would be a little bit too  bad if everybody simply voted based on you know   their skin color their gender you know these fixed  characteristics and couldn't make up their minds   about policy issues based on kind of deliberation  and and dealing with facts and you know the fact   of the matter is in American politics you have  had leaders that have been transformational that   actually persuade people to think about things  differently such that you know the way that they   were born or even the party affiliation into  which they're born doesn't actually determine   you know how they come out so in a way you know I  guess what I think we need is a kind of leadership   that will get us beyond this kind of demographic  targeting that assumes that we have these fixed   pref and that as Americans were not capable of  actually changing our minds about things before   we go to audience questions and there's a lot of  good ones coming in you see a leader out there who   that's hit quality quality's not at the moment  as we're doing our endorsements ed terms here's   the audience question research research shows  that big economic dips are always followed by   right-wing populist movements how do you account  for that first of all do you agree with that and   do you how do you account I don't think that's  right I mean if you think about the 1930s we   had a much bigger recession 25% unemployment you  know GDP goes down you know 10 20 % I mean it was   a really big shock and you had populism but that  was mobilized by Franklin Roosevelt and it went   on you know you went on to create the New Deal  coalition so I think that actually these populism   's are actually pretty malleable and that's why  I think leadership actually matters a great deal   so in Europe they had the bad fortune of getting  some right-wing populist that steered that same   kind of anger you know you know towards fascism  whereas in the United States we had leadership   that actually used that anger to build in the  modern welfare state and you know the kind of   social protections that we've kind of come to take  for granted so I don't think it's it's inevitable   can you expand on your comment in the book with  regard to universal guaranteed income that you   do not see it being an ideal solution to job  loss well the basic issue has to do with dignity   because I think that the demand for dignity is  a separate thing from economic you know desire   that we want we want respect and a lot of times  we want respect even if it means that we have to   suffer economically for it but the two are clearly  related and oftentimes I think what we assume   to be economic motivation is actually dignity  motivation that we want that really beautiful   you know Tesla because not because we think that  you know such a great car but our neighbor doesn't   have one and you know it gives us status you  know to be driving this sort of thing or maybe   we're environmentally you know appropriate and  so forth and so I think that that demand for you   know respect is a is a you know as a separate  is a separate driver of human motivation and   therefore has to be addressed separately from you  know from economics please comment on the role of   universities so I'm sorry and I didn't I I didn't  get to the universal this was gonna lead up to my   my problem with universal basic income is that  part of what gives you dignity in having a job   is the fact that society thereby says you're doing  something useful you know it's useful enough that   we're gonna pay you a salary and that's the  trouble I think with universal basic income   is that you're just being paid for being alive and  there's no dignity component to that and so it's   just not clear that even though that might keep  you alive whether that's actually going to make   you feel good about yourself I think that you know  it's a more fundamental problem please comment on   the role of universities in the polarization  America so this is a tough question because I   think it's partly it's partly an empirical one  so there's no question that there is a lot of I   think ridiculous identity politics on university  campuses it's not just there it's in the arts you   know the humanities more broadly where people  you know are just so utterly sensitive about   some of these dignity questions that they end  up being very intolerant and you know shutting   down people that even dare to utter you know  certain phrases this sort of thing there's no   question this is going on in fact it's led to  violence in certain cases but I do think that   it's also the case that it's deliberately picked  up by conservatives to you know denounce academia   as a whole and you know as a way of characterizing  everybody on the left is being completely consumed   by by this sort of identity politics and as  an empirical fact I'm just not sure you know   whether that's true I I know that the attitudes of  students have shifted in that direction you know   quite substantially but in my own dealings you  know I I see a sometimes a different reality so   for example Charles Murray came to Stanford last  winter I debated him actually and we didn't have   any trouble you know it wasn't like Middlebury  College and he was telling me that he's actually   given you know dozens of talks around the country  at you know different schools and universities you   know without any problem and so you know the idea  that there's no free speech or no possibility of   you know debate I mean a Richard Spencer you know  I mean I'm not sure that he really qualifies as   a you know somebody that really ought to be in  a academic setting but I think the people with   heterodox views you know can still can still can  still find a voice do you think Stanford is is   typical there or maybe an aberration certainly and  Berkeley has had a lot more problems in stage yeah   well Stanford's had Stanford's had its share of it  I mean you know Stanford was the place where Jesse   Jackson came in the 1980s with the hey hey ho ho  Western those cultures got to go and I think that   one of the consequences of that is that you know  there's really it's not been possible for Stanford   to actually define a core curriculum of ideas that  it thinks that you know its students need to know   to be you know citizens and and you know mature  human beings and I'm afraid that that's true at   a lot of other universities as well especially  the more elite ones but you don't have the same   degree of student radicalism there that you do at  Berkeley obviously here's my favorite question so   far which countries in the world today do  you identify as not suffering from identity   politics and what can the United States learn  from them good that's a good question so take   Canada and Australia which are really interesting  cases because both of those countries have higher   percentages of foreign-born people living in them  than the United States the United States is about   15% Canada is well over 20 you know Australia  is I think somewhere in the teen high teens and   yet they neither country has a populist backlash  party no demagogic you know equivalent of Donald   Trump and so the question is why and that you know  it's a complicated one one thing is that neither   country has really experienced a big downturn  especially Australia I mean they've been going   for decades without a recession and they haven't  experienced the industrialization the way that the   United States has but I also think that it could  lie in their immigration policies because both   of them have skill-based immigration policies  and both of them are actually pretty strict   at controlling illegal immigration to the point  that Australia you know when it sees a boat full   of refugees sticks them in Vanuatu or Papua New  Guinea or now uru rather than letting them land in   Australia so you know it's a pretty tough policy  for which they've been criticised but I think   one of the consequences is that they haven't had  the kind of backlash that you've seen in Germany   or France or the United States or you know or  other places well it's interesting in terms of   immigration here in the United States I mean when  you go to Silicon Valley I mean they are craving   as those companies are craving more immigration  certainly the agriculture and construction sectors   here are certainly welcoming immigrants and in the  thing that we hear from all of these businesses is   that they're not taking away jobs from Americans  who are here but rather expanding opportunity like   in Silicon Valley he's coming say we can't hire  enough people without reaching outside the US no I   mean I think that's clear that I mean if you look  at the CEOs and the biographies of a lot of the   leaders in Silicon Valley you know they're they're  first-generation immigrants to the United States   and so you think on net you know how many jobs  have they created I mean a lot what role do you   think marketing two identities plays in identity  politics marking marketing o market marketing two   identities I mean not only from politicians but  also commercially now it's an avenue certainly   there's a lot of marketing to identities yeah  I think that in a capitalist economy you know   you're gonna get people that will basically you  you know they're not thinking about what's right   you know for you know the political order as a  whole I mean they're just thinking about kind   of short-term advantage so Colin Kapernick you  know a Nike I mean the background of this is is   a president that has I think kind of brilliantly  exploited you know racial division even that whole   approach the NFL but yeah I think you know Nike  saw an opportunity to go in the other direction   and given who their customer base is you know  maybe that's a correct decision but on the   whole I don't think we want to move to a United  States in which essentially corporations that   sell to consumers are making calculations like  politicians trying to get votes in an election   saying okay we you know we're gonna go after  this particular demographic and we know we're   going to lose this other one you know because you  know because of the existing polarizations I mean   most corporations would stay away from that kind  of marketing but we're seeing the beginnings of   you know a shift in that direction and that you  know that's that's fairly dangerous although one   thing we've seen over the years is that you know  corporate America follows politics and politics   follows corporate America remember the landmark  book and in of the 1968 election about Richard   Nixon and and basically how he put together  a team that basically sold him like a pack   of cigarettes and the effects were similar yeah  yeah here's the here's a question isn't it true   don't you like questions that started isn't it  true isn't it true that Donald Trump really is   a culmination and not a start yes oh that he is  he is building on an existing polarization that   has been building really since the late 1980s  it really got started in a big way in the 1990s   you know when with the rise of Newt Gingrich and  this kind of winner-take-all politics you know in   Congress and that basic polarization has just  been getting worse year after year and it was   very bad I mean look honestly if Hillary Clinton  had won in 2016 she would have had a horrible time   governing because probably you know at least one  house of Congress would have still been held by   the Republicans that had hobbled Barack Obama for  the you know the second you know he's entire well   actually ever since 2010 and I think that that's  led to these big you know dysfunctions in the   political system and so yes so in that sense he  is a culmination but he does have very distinctive   features that are really new so this complete  turn against internationalism right you had   that in the Republican Party in the 1920s 30s 40s  and then it was basically exercised in the Truman   administration when the country finally reconciled  itself to being internationalist and being heavily   engaged in the world and honestly that kind  of just outright isolationism has not really   been a main current in the Republican Party and  now Trump has turned that around I mean the the   statistic data on Russia is really incredible so  when Obama tried to do the reset with Russia you   know just in the single digits Republicans thought  that was a good idea and now the Trump is saying   that's a good idea you know half the party thinks  that we should have better relations with you know   with Russia and so you know I guess as somebody  that looks at International democracy one of the   things that really worries me about this rise  of identity is that it's completely changing the   basic axis of global politics right so politics in  the twentieth century used to be aligned along an   economic access between a left and a right so the  Left wanted redistribution social justice you know   strong welfare state or even state control over  the economy the right one at accomplice market   greater individual freedom and so forth and you  know that led to lots of conflicts but you know   in a certain way these economic issues were easier  to bridge what we are starting to move towards is   a world in which basic identity you know based on  biological characteristics like ethnicity or race   is becoming or religion is becoming what defines  the nature of you know these regimes so in Hungary   Viktor Orban basically told his his countrymen  Hungarian national identity is based on Hungarian   ethnicity right that's fine except for the fact  that there are a lot of non Hungarians that live   in Hungary and there's a lot of Hungarians that  live outside of Hungary so you know that's setting   up grounds for a lot of intolerance and and you  know problems and foreign policy and so forth   Prime Minister Modi in India is taking a country  that was actually remarkably liberal ever since   independence and he's shifting national identity  to one based on Hinduism BJP his party is a Hindu   nationalist party so again you know there's 150  200 million Muslims Christians you know a lot of   other people that are not Hindu in that country  and so all of these things are setting up big   social conflicts in the future and if you look at  this rise of Putin popularity in the Republican   Party it's not just because of Trump it's really  because of this fundamental redefinition of what   it means to be American because a lot of people  on the right are increasingly coming to say well   actually know what it means to be an American is  to be Christian you know to be anti gay marriage   to be you know a guardian of an ancient culture  and ultimately a lot of that is defined in ethnic   terms and that's why they actually you know  and there's quite a number of conservatives   in the last couple of years that have said I would  actually pick Putin over Hillary Clinton you know   now that's not just Donald Trump I mean that's  a that's a really big rethinking the u.s. kind   of did actually let me ask you in terms of you  know you talk about Trump subversion globalism   and international relations in some ways though  is you I'm sure you know from traveling around   the world even in in nations were at least on  the government level there's hostility to the   to the US person-to-person there's just like such  an affection for the United States and one of the   things that really concerns I think a lot of folks  outside of the u.s. is that they see Donald Trump   basically embolden their own leaders you know  example was when I was in the Philippines and   people were telling me that President Duterte  never used the word fake news until Donald   Trump kind of made it legitimate for him and  we're seeing dissonance jailed and in different   countries and and a lot of the same rationale  being used how much do you think the the current   administration is actually kind of fomenting this  at nationalism and identity politics around the   globe the president is fomenting that the rest  of his administration is actually not so bad I   mean this is this weird thing about foreign  policy right now so as far as Donald Trump   is concerned I mean another respect in which he's  not just the culmination of things that have been   going on is his attitude towards democracy I mean  ever especially ever since Woodrow Wilson every   American president Republican or Democrat has said  worldwide democracy is a good thing you know that   that there's a fundamental division in the world  between democratic countries and authoritarian   dictatorships and we're on the side of the  democracies Trump is the first American president   that has not agreed to that so he's picked fights  with all of our Democratic allies you know from   all these nice Canadians you know you know to the  German yeah yeah Australia and he really seems to   like these strong men leaders like Sisi or Putin  or Duterte you know those are the people even Xi   Jinping although we're in a nasty trade fight  with him you know he's still Kim jong-un I mean   he's in love with Kim Jong I mean what kind of a  you know it's kind of a Republican what kind of a   Republican you know would would utter something  like that and so he's completely set that you   know he's kind of reversed the the moral valence  of democracy versus authoritarian government but   the rest of the government continues to operate  as if you know he wasn't president so we have   actually stronger sanctions today than we did  under Barack Obama against Russia we continue to   support you know I'm on the board of the National  Endowment for democracy which gives support to   civil society groups you know around the world  pro-democracy civil society groups we some I   sometimes feel that the only reason we've survived  is that Donald Trump actually doesn't know that   this organization exists and so it hasn't become a  target you know but it's it's really you know it's   kind of the McCain wing of the Republican Party  which is basically disappeared but nonetheless it   continues to go on like this machine that just  you know will keep operating until you know it   really runs into a brick wall and so far Trump  is not you know I think been skillful enough   as a president to really figure out how to get  control of this machine I was at a briefing at   the State Department during Hilary Clinton's  term when Richard Holbrooke gave a background   beef briefing to reporters and basically he  was saying the thing about the State Department   because he goes from one administration to the  next doesn't matter if it's you know Republican   to Democrat or whatever foreign policy eighty to  ninety percent doesn't change he goes even though   there may be a lot of fireworks over that ten to  twenty percent I'm interested in your perspective   as someone who worked in the State Department with  this administration following up on your comments   are we still in that eighty to ninety percent  range do you think oh yeah I would I would say so   with a couple of caveats that you know Trump has  done a tremendous amount of damage to the State   Department so they've lost a lot of very senior  diplomats you know if I were a young person I mean   that's what I do as I train people that want to  do things like go into the State Department nobody   wants to go there right now you know it's very  demoralizing and so the renewal of that agency and   people that actually are interested in engaging  in International Affairs I think that's all been   you know very much weakened but I'm struck I mean  I travel all a lot and you know I you know I just   find that all of the diplomats that I deal with  especially the Foreign Service officers or the   professional people actually are carrying on as  if nothing had happened and you know they have   to they have to give the administration's line  when they're instructed to but you know by and   large they really want to maintain that kind  of continuity how important is the strength   of individual leaders versus the strength of  institutions in the protection of constitutional   liberties I think is hugely important I think that  and and it's related to this issue of identity   because identities are really socially constructed  meaning you know they are influenced by the way   people talk about them by leadership by grassroots  movements and so forth and I think that they can   be pushed in more narrow and you know more ways  and that's the function I think of leadership   is to redefine you know what it means to be  American and you know what your inner identity   really revolves around I think that a lot of the  outcomes you know so for example we were talking   about is our recessions followed inevitably by  left or right wing populist movements I think   it's you know looking back in history I think it's  sort of a matter of luck you know it was a matter   of luck that you had Roosevelt in the 1930s that  push things in that direction I think was a sort   of bad luck that we ended up with Donald Trump  you know today because he you know this could   have been done by a similar kind of demagogue  at any point you know in the last 10 20 years   but the fact that it you know it happened right  now is partly the result of the fact that he just   figured out you know how to do it and he made  his his move and conversely that's why I think   that I'm not you know wholly pessimistic because  I do think that with the right leadership you can   turn a lot of the current situation around now of  course people have to vote properly and that sort   of thing that matters also but I think the leaders  are important how does class reason then fit into   you know your portrait of identity politics  and we've seen it from both the left and the   right traditionally it's been more the left the  Democrats that have pushed class resentment mm-hmm   then you had conservatives like say a Paul Ryan  very adroitly selling the message to Republicans   that even though this tax bill may not benefit  you you may someday be in that 1% you want to   you want to support it in and very successfully  sold that Donald Trump kind of turned that on   its head and yet he's not doing the tax cuts for  the 1% so this is another social reality in the   United States that people haven't really come  to grips with which is that I think the single   biggest actually determinant of your future is is  defined by the level of education so if you look   at Americans generally over the last 30 years if  you have a college education or higher you've done   really pretty well and if you have a high school  education or less you've kind of fallen off of a   cliff and that's true across gender and racial and  ethnic lines and so African Americans have split   you know in that fashion Hispanics have split you  know women have split and so forth and so actually   I think you know education I mean I think that  class is actually kind of a central reality driven   by these structural changes in the global economy  and that has dangers I think actually for both you   know both parties because you know the Democrats  have tended to define the problem of inequality   in these identity terms and so it's it's more  associated with you know the particular identity   group that you're you're associated with and as  a result have lost touch with a you know this   large number of whites that are also economically  suffering now Donald Trump has you know inserted   himself he does not have a solution to that you  know his all of his policies to date have actually   made them worse off except in these you know kind  of dignity ways and you know he talks the right   language that makes them feel better but in terms  of substantive policies this tax cut you know   basically it was an effort to redistribute money  upwards to you know to people that have it already   so I think that what we need is is actually  an honest grappling with the problem of class   because I do think that that's kind of the biggest  problem that exists out there right now you make a   really good point about the role of education  and and I will be interested in your thoughts   as to whether we are ceding future generations of  extending this problem with identity politics and   in class resentment because you look at the  schools and particularly here in California   you know what they are now comparable to what  they were in those in those 70s and and the   master plan for higher education in the 60s that  basically made students who were of a who achieved   a certain level could easily afford to go to the  University of California no tuition now it's a its   formidable competing almost with private schools  are we setting ourselves up for a continuation of   this phenomenon that you write about well there's  a lot of things that are contributing to that so   part of it is residential segregation by class  so Americans have been sorting themselves into   neighborhoods that are you know quite homogeneous  I mean that's part of the underlying reality   that's driving the polarization but a lot of  that is determined by education there's also this   problem among elites of you know what's called a  sort ative mating that you tend to marry people   that are similar to yourself and so well-educated  people that are doing well marry one another they   have children that begin with a good genetic  inheritance but then that's compounded by their   parents ability to transmit social status wealth  and resources and opportunities to them the one   thing you will never get out of an elite school is  how many legacy admissions they they have but I'll   tell you the number is not insignificant you know  because they're all trying to cultivate donors and   school loyalty and that sort of thing and so all  of these things I think really contribute to a you   know an elite that is very self-contained you know  it's it's in many ways very hard to penetrate you   know that because they've set up a lot of defenses  that protect their social positions and economic   positions and that also affects them the nature of  Education because since we educate people you know   locally based on local tax bases and so forth  and and in fact and it's not even the economic   issue it's it's friends and family so if you live  in a you know in a homogeneous commune that has   lots of really well-educated you know so I live  in Palo Alto that's super competitive you know   you're gonna get a good education there you know  regardless but if you live in East Palo Alto or   you know parts of the East Bay very different kind  of situation because of this residential class you   know based sorting and I think that's one of  the you know the the fundamental issues that   we've really not figured out how to grapple with  in in addition to the net economic inequalities   from government on these schools you have like  parental involvement fund raisers that you know   they're really supplement in a big way if I could  say one more thing about education which is a   point also in the book I think that we really  don't do civic education anymore so there's a   lot of pull data that is just appalling like you  know twenty percent of teenagers can identify a   single right in the bill of rights you know or  can name the three branches of government or or   can name one branch of the three branches and  I think that there's just been a you know lack   of attention to this and partly well it's been  driven by a lot of things I mean it's driven by   this kind of belief that you have to have stem  you know classes if you're going to get a job   and you know the the Civic stuff comes later  but I think that the problem you see right now   is that you know essentially you got a president  that does not understand the constitutional order   and a lot of people a lot of other Americans  don't really understand checks and balances   and they don't understand why the government  is organized in the way that it is and that   stuff that we should be teaching you know kids not  just you know not just in in K through 12 I think   actually universities have failed in that job as  well I'm sure you stay in touch with some of your   colleagues from your time in the in the Reagan  and Bush administration's do they share some   of your concerns or is there support for Trump  in among them so I first of all ceased being a   and when I moved to California figured there's  no point in well it was it was several things   it seems to me the Republican Party you know I the  Republican Party I liked was was Bush 41 you know   Brent Scowcroft James Baker those kinds of people  and they're just they're not part of the party   anymore they've just been completely marginalized  so I feel that that party left me Plus which you   know being a Republican in California doesn't  you know there's not much of a future there   but I must say that you know so I had a lot of  problems with my neocon friends you know I was   part of that group up until the Iraq war and then  I had a big break with them and I must say that I   am really I admire them a great deal because all  of them have been extremely principled with the   rise of Donald Trump I mean they are among the  most articulate you know critics of trump and   trumpism out there so I think that you know it  really depends I am also very disappointed a lot   of Republican friends I had who don't you know  they don't vocalize any criticisms and you just   don't you know they they complain about all sorts  of other things but never about the president and   I just think you know you're living through a  moment where American democracy is under this   really big threat and you're not saying anything  about you know what seems to me the central issue   of our time and you know I find that very you  know very disappointing and that's especially   true in Congress for the very few Republicans who  are willing to speak out against this diminution   of of democracy Jeff Flake you know to some  degree bob Corker are people who are leaving   you know they're I can't name a single Republican  in the US Senate or the house who's really spoken   out forthrightly against the president so you  know what does gonna change that though is an   election so if there's a blue wave and if there's  a very clear repudiation of Trump this November   and then again in 2020 that I think will change  that calculation because that's the moment at   which a lot of these cowardly Republicans are  going to realize that actually maybe aligning   themselves with Trump is not going to win them  a general election and that he's a liability   rather than an asset and that's why I think that  of all the checks and balances in the American   political system the single most important one  is an electoral check in a democracy basically   when the people speak you know very clearly  about something that's what politicians pay   attention to which means that I think this  election that we're gonna have in how many   days from now I mean we're counting over month  yeah is is really going to be one of the most   important elections in American history because  if that check does not arrive if the Republicans   retain control of both houses I think Trump and  the rest of his party are going to take that as   a mandate that you know the American people  think there's nothing wrong with any of the   stuff that we're doing whereas even if it's only  taking the House of Representatives it means that   Congress can begin to fulfill some of its actual  constitutional functions like holding hearings and   you know investigations and releasing data and  all of that sort of thing so it's it's a pretty   it's a pretty big deal with what what we're  gonna see on in November do you think though   if they're if this blue wave does materializes is  folks suspected a lot of analysts think it will I   mean it will be driven in most insignificant  part by identity politics will it not I mean   women who are appalled at what's going on African  Americans who are appalled gays and lesbians who   worry about their rights under a Supreme Court  identity politics may be the thing that I yeah   so a lot of these elections are turnout driven  and true that a lot of activists that will get   out and vote in a primary live in those groups but  actually you know the key swing districts that are   up for contest a lot of them are actually in  swing states or they're ones where there's a   you know a balance between the parties and lots  of Independence and a lot of those voters you   know it's complicated because you know Democrats  are counting on suburban women and so that is an   identity group that's going to be extremely  important to them in this election but you   know there's a lot of other voters that will be  attentive to other issues where that emphasis on   identity may actually be a turn-off rather than a  turn-on and so it's it's you know it's not a clear   I mean this election clearly you know this this  gender issue is going to be extremely important   but you know down the road I do think that there's  still something a little bit problematic putting   too much weight in that basket we have time  for one more question so let me just ask you   quickly do you see the evolution of a follow-up  book coming here as you're watching all of this   well ask me after November no I do think that  you know the big question in my mind is whether   all of this populism that we're experiencing is  like a stock market correction where you know   the the basic path of political development  in the world is still towards democracy like   what Obama calls the arc of history or whether  we're experiencing something much you know much   more fundamental and I think that you know  in a turn away from liberal democracy and I   honestly you know we'll have to see and maybe  there'll be another book you know once that   becomes clear well please join me in thanking  dr. Francis Fukuyama author of the new book identity the demand for dignity and the politics  of resentment I also want to thank everyone here   tonight a very well behaved attentive audience  as well as our audience the attack they didn't   even applaud when you talked about the Blue Wave  as well as our audience on radio television and   the Internet a reminder to everyone here that  copies of dr. fukuyama's new book are on sale   and he'll be pleased to sign them right outside  the room following the program I'm John Diaz and   now this meeting of the Commonwealth Club the  place where you are in the know is adjourned

Channel: Commonwealth Club of California

Views: 16,300

Rating: 4.6622224 out of 5

Keywords: Francis Fukuyama, Identity and the Politics of Resentment, Stanford University’s Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies, Commonwealth Club, San Francisco

Id: I2AUxRQFXY4

Length: 66min 59sec (4019 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 08 2018