In a historic first former president of the United States and a current presidential candidate on top of that announced his own federal indictment. Joining us now for their take on this monumental day in the history of this great republic, former Watergate special prosecutor Richard Ben-Veniste and legendary Watergate journalist Bob Woodward. Bob, you have interviewed the former president extensively in 2019. He told you about a nuclear weapons system where he claimed to this. Let's take a listen from your interview I have built a weapon system that nobody has ever had in this country before. We have stuff that you haven't even seen or heard about. We have stuff that Putin and she have never heard about before. I mean, that's I mean, that's nuts in itself. But now we know he's been charged with with retaining these classified documents. About U.S. nuclear capabilities. And who knows again who got access to them? Who knows who he told about them. So this must not actually be surprising to you. No, no. This indictment and the circumstances are a total reflection of his personality. I really think he believes democracy is enemy territory because it's about other people. And he likes everything to be about him. And I think one of the offshoots of this is this is a test and a grave crisis. For the Republican Party. How is the Republican Party going to deal with this? We all know lots of Republicans, many are still law and order Republicans. And I think they're going to look at this and they're going to say, wait a minute, And this could begin that snowball going down the mountain because it's so factual, it's so potent And I thought Jack Smith, what he did today when he praised the FBI was so important. So the Republicans are going to have to go back to Barry Goldwater, who 50 years ago went to Nixon and said too many lies, too many crimes. And Nixon asked him in a private Oval Office meeting with the Republican leaders in the House and the Senate. Well, I know I'm going to be impeached. How will I do in a Senate trial? Now we need 34 votes to stay in office. And Goldwater looked at him and said, Mr. President, and I've counted and you have five votes. And one of them is not my right. And you don't have mine. Yeah. It's such a great story. Richard, I want to get your take on something historian Doug Brinkley said today. Let's roll that tape. I've always thought Ford was right to heal the country pardoning Nixon. But in recent years, I realize it was probably a mistake for the reason that it encourages the arrogance of President Trump, of this feeling that he's above the law, that the Constitution doesn't matter, that you can have an authoritarian bent to do anything you want in the United States. Do you agree? I think the long the long view picture of what he's saying is that if actually there had been a trial of Richard Nixon and maybe he had gone to the prison as many of his coconspirators did, then maybe this wouldn't have happened. But at least if the timing was different on the pardon, if President Ford had waited until we brought charges and then Nixon could address the charges, either by accepting a pardon or not, at least the charges would be out there and it would be something the public could see. And I agree that this indictment really is a reflection of the former president's arrogance, his disdain for the rule of law. Which is so repugnant to people who have worked in law enforcement, who have worked for the Constitution bipartisanly over the years to see this kind of complete disregard for the rule of law by the president in in treating documents which involved the national security of the United States in this cavalier, offhanded and totally disrespectful way. I don't see how members of his political party can accept this as a leader of the party. So, Bob, you were talking about you invoked Goldwater, who obviously had been the party, the Republican Party's nominee for president in 64. So he was the conservative standard bearer going to Nixon talking to Nixon. And I'm just wondering, I mean, the the modern incarnation of that would be Mitt Romney, very conservative but Donald Trump doesn't care what Mitt Romney thinks is he wouldn't let him in. Right. Is there a I mean and to be clear, he should Mitt Romney is a wise man. And very conservative. Is there a Goldwater of today that that not just Donald Trump, but Kevin McCarthy would listen to? Well, we're going to have to find him or the Republican Party is going to have to have come to Jesus meeting with itself and say, what are we missing? Leadership direction, moral definition, which has to be the center of any political party. If I may say, I think this situation is a test for Biden and the Democrats. Also, I think it's really important. Biden is staying away from this and so forth. But go back 50 years. The night Nixon announced he was resigning in The Washington Post newsroom, Ben Bradlee, the editor was running around saying, don't gloat, no gloating, essential. And I was with Ben. We were going down to get something to eat at The Washington Post cafeteria, which was just not much. But it was late at night and the elevator opened and out stepped. A prominent member of the Kennedy family and said, Ben, I came here to celebrate. And Ben almost tackled him, pushing him back in the elevator and said, no, no celebration, no gloating. And it's very important that the Democrats and those of us in our business not get in in a celebration mode. Yeah. 1974. Kennedy in Washington. I think I could figure out who that was. Maybe it was Sargent Shriver. It was Sargent Shriver. He thought it was right. The Senator Ted Kennedy. Do you agree? And, you know, you brought the Watergate case. And do you think the Republican Party of the seventies was different from the Republican Party today in terms of all that we know about Nixon and there was a lot that he did that was wrong. And Mean-Spirited and unconstitutional. I believe that if he had survived Watergate wounded but survived, he was not an existing threat to our democracy. I don't believe the same thing about Donald Trump. And I think this is an important step for people to consider how he regarded our national security in the way he treated these documents. And the next thing to come is January six with which was a head on assault against our democracy. Two investigations coming to the fore on that, including one from Jack Smith. And if I may. But 50 years ago, if somebody had said, do you do you think Richard Nixon is an existential threat to democracy, you would have said yes. No, I wouldn't. You would not have I wouldn't have said an existential threat, because we could. That's too big a word. We survive And I'm using an existential I'm using a big word when it comes to Donald Trump. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. To legend some of the era and end of today as well. Richard Ben-Veniste and Bob Woodward, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. Good to see you, sir.
