Former RBI Governor Raghuram Rajan LIVE On Freebie Politics In India | Rajdeep Sardesai LIVE

where is your money they used to come before the election they promis the Farm loan waver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know um lo give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting into the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these problems how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but kan's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of den shopping by Ezra B I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that know D shopping decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in V's brilliant biography of narar is how narar kind of also did this using Manan Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they'll talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks a Prime Minister Modi does take risk I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the the check and balance when you go after track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms then uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat Joo yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least so is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians to or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with Prime Minister Modi as well if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what are common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the ident roit I like roit has recognized the importance of the oneliner in the era of sound bites and in Era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the LLY bana scheme simple 1250 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line they were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in madh Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said, 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-go area is converting the new pension scheme to the the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme no so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reason well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthcare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talk there's a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Jan Kalan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and a coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach amital the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promise the Farm loan waver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know um give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time they'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but kan's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think there also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of D shopping by Ezra B I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in Vin's brilliant biography of narar RA is how narim ra kind of also did this using manm Singh as the you know and took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nean vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they talk about you know need for more governance less govern when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risk RIS I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms then uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat J yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least is is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with Prime Minister Modi as well right if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what a common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like Rohit say recognize the importance of the one liner in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the LLY B scheme simple 12250 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line they were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in Mad Pradesh Kamal Nat said, 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said, 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no noo area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme no so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they're getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthcare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we there's a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Janan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on and continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a FAL there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfare ISM and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach umit Khal the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know um give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but kan's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of den shopping by Ezra ble I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that they need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in Vin's brilliant biography of narar is how narar kind of also did this using Manan Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore Wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent I what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat jordo yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have ch cha with Prime Minister Modi as well guys if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I have talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what a common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like roit has recognized the importance of the one liner in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the larly bana scheme simple 1,250 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line there were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in madha Pradesh Kamal Nat said 1500 once shivat sing Chan said 1250 he said, 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the patter now are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-o area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme no so suddenly the Congress was even saying legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we dis agree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in in healthcare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talk about there a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Janan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a f there's a fiscal arithmetic you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach umit Khal the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a toal Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promis the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know give us forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting into the problem I think we also need to have independent and institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that uh uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but kan's famous statement all political action they slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of den shopping by Ezra ble I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that they need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in Vin's brilliant biography of narar is how narim kind of also did this using Manan Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nean vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that helped liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take every one along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they'll talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat Joo yra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least so is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with prime minister mod as well if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what our common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity roit I like roit has recognized the importance of the one liner in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfare ISM for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the LLY B scheme simple 12250 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line they were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put that happened in madha Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the patter are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and roit lamba want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I in the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-o because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-o area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it one Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted and at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extended to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talk about there's a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Jan Kalan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach amital the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promis the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting into the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that uh uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but Kane's famous statement all political action they slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of d shoing by Ezra ble I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in V's brilliant biography of narar RA is how narar ra kind of also did this using Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling Nan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they'll talk about about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and L governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks a Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms then majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat Joo yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least so is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a pol IED society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with Prime Minister Modi as well guys if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on the thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what a common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like Ro has recognized the importance of the one lineer in the ER of sound bites and in Era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-call ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the LLY B scheme simple 12 50 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line they were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put that happened in madha Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat sing Chan said 1250 he said, 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-o area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pensions scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they're getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthcare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talk about there a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Janan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this there is a f there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have brought ly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach amital the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know U give us uh forbearance don't call this an PA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but kan's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of den shopping by Ezra Bogle I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that know D shopping decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in vapo brilliant biography of narar RA is how narim ra kind of also did this using manm Singh as the you know and he took advice from you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of 3 years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent uh what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bhat J yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least so so is is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan Sina when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai cha with Prime Minister Modi as well right if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of go with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what our common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like Ro has recognized the importance of the one liner in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madha Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the larly bner scheme simple 1250 rupees by uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line they were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in Mad Pradesh Kamal NAD said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said, 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees Ju believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes com a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-o area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme no I so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of the because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talk about there a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Jan Kalan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this there there's a fisc arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach umit Khal the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waer after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know U give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting the problem I I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous St statement that uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but Kane's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets impl I think it's a point it's the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of den shopping by Ezra Google I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are ful filling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in Vin's brilliant biography of narar is how narar kind of also did this using manm Singh as the you know and he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says you know we are doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalized Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he's saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent I what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go power to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for rul Gandhi's bat yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so uh so you're happy to have chai cha with Prime Minister Modi as well guys if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what our common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like roit has recognized the importance of the oneliner in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition def of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the larly bner scheme simple 1250 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line they were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in Mad Pradesh Kamal Nat said 1500 one shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said 1,500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's econom IC future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less serial sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no noo area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme no so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly Target tared because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of the thing because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're underinvestigated tional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to umit the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about free beads I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan wer and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but kan's famous statement all political action they slave of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of den shopping by Ezra B I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shoing decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in Vin's brilliant biography of narar RA is how narim kind of also did this using manm Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particular particularly in Gatherings like this they'll talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such uh entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the but we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether coalition government governs are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat J yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no I I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least so is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with Prime Minister Modi as well right if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what our common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like roit has recognized the importance of the one life in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the largely B scheme simple 1,250 rupees by uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line there were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put that happened in madha Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competation but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-go area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to tr transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're underinvestigated in healthcare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talking about there a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Janan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach umit Khal the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know um lo give us uh for bar don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting into the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but kan's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of D shopping by Ezra ble I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in V's brilliant biography of narar RA is how narar kind of also did this using manm Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they'll talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and L governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks a Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat J yatra and that stirred a cont controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least so so is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think have been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with Prime Minister Modi as well right if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what a common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like roit has recognized the importance of the one liner in the era of sound bites and an era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the larly bana scheme simple 1250 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line there were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in madha Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she get gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-go area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it one him Pradesh on the old pension scheme so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they getting why go back to the old Pion scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthc care under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talk there's a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Jan Kalan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a fc there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach umit Khal the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waer and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know U lo give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time time you know remember kan's famous statement that you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but Kane's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of D shopping by Ezra ble I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that they need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in Vin's brilliant biography of narim is how narar kind of also did this using manm Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go after because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bat Joo yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the yeah atast so is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan Sina when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with Prime Minister Modi as well guys if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what common ende devor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like roit has recognized the importance of the one liner in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madha Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the LLY bner scheme simple 1250 rupees by uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line there were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in madh Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said, 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a compettion for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think think is is is a no no-o area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme no so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kind of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they're getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of the because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted it some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthcare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talking about very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Jan Kalan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a there's a physcal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us who whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two inst instuments at this point if we want to reach amital the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promise the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know U give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc no that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that uh uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but Kane's famous statement all political action they're slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think there also I think it's a little bit of I would argue political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of D shopping by Ezra ble I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that they need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in vapo brilliant biography of narar is how narim kind of also did this using Manan Singh as the you know and he took advice from a you know set of serious Economist and says no no we are doing we are fulfilling nean vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to hyad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent I what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for Rahul Gandhi's bhat jodo yatra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician um no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai P Chara with Prime Minister Modi as well if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the DMK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what a common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity Ro I like Ro has recognize the importance of the oneliner in in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh What did the trick to win an election was the larly bner scheme simple 1,250 rupees by uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line there were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in madha Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said, 1500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do Empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less cereal sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-o area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme so suddenly the Congress was even saying we'll legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security they're getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're underinvested in schools under investing in in healthcare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talk about a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Janan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a fisc there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reservations and asking for or or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach umit Khal the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes therefore we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebies I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know uh give us forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look at what your budget can take and state after state is getting into the problem I think we also need to have independent institutions which rank all these promises how does this add up and what will you have to cut down the line so these things come over time they won't come immediately but over time there'll be greater public recognition that if they promise all this that means less for me because I'm not going to get my better school I'm not going to get better which brings me to the contentious question do politicians Listen to Good Advice over time over time you know remember kan's famous statement that uh you know all particularly from Economist sorry but go ahead yeah but K's famous statement all political action they slaves of some academic Scribbler long ago I think what happens is when you put the ideas out into the public domain they get debated eventually some politician says Ah this is my good idea and I will go and implement it so you need them to take ownership you need them to transform it a little bit so it becomes their ownership their idea and then it gets implemented I think it's a point it's a the point is to put the ideas out for debate and that's to some extent what we're trying to do with this book I think it also I think it's a little bit of I would argue a political entrepreneurship lacking you know like if you read this fantastic biography of den shopping by Ezra uh Google I think I forget the last name what comes out really is that D shopping decided at some point that he need to open up but what he what was he a great political entrepreneur at was that at every step as he opened up the economy he said we are fulfilling Ma's dream we are fulfilling Ma's dream and he was dismantling every aspect of and you know what comes out also you know very well in Vin's brilliant biography of narim RA is how narar kind of also did this using manmon Singh as the you know he took advice from a you know a set of serious economists and says no no we doing we are fulfilling nvan vision of socialism in India but he he dismantled over over a period of three years some very important laws that that help liberalize Indian economy I think that requires a certain kind of political political entrepreneurship to to do what is supposed to be done but take everyone along while doing it that's a huge challenge because you know Indian politicians will often talk the good talk uh particularly in Gatherings like this they talk about you know need for more governance less government when they go back uh and particularly at election time it just reverses they talk about more government and less governance uh I I just therefore wonder whether you're going to need more political entrepreneurs you've had a few I mean Chandra Babu Naidu is one person who stands out for me he saw the future go to Hyderabad today you get a sense that compared to other cities it's been a step uh you know ahead of the curve I just wonder you'll need many more such entrepreneurs who are willing to evangelize take risks Prime Minister Modi does take risks I mean and and he has a huge majority government I I just wonder whether that makes him more suited to carrying forward the kind of dialogue or less suited because a majority government can also rapidly turn according to critics into an authoritarian government well I mean I I I think that's the downside risk the upside risk is he has the majority to implement a lot of what we talk about in the book so uh I mean look I think the we everybody wants the best for India if there is a a will to do it wherever that will comes from that's great I I think it will move forward at that point but you know to some extent what we're talking about is a package deal you need to do a whole bunch of things uh you need the will to do that but you also have to let go of power uh to some extent because that's going to be the the check and balance when you go off track because there's been this huge debate whether Coalition governments are better suited uh to take forward some of these reforms than uh majority governments you went for rul Gandhi's yra and that stirred a controversy because that image of you and the two of you being interviewed next thing we knew then you were a congress politician no i' I've been a congress politician for long according to the to at least so so is is that is that part of the you know that engaging even with politicians today or or sort of trying to sort of start trigger a dialogue with them leads you to being labeled one side or the other in a polarized society as we've become is it possible to have the kind of dialogue that you want in this book and really break the mold I I think I've been open to dialogue with all few people remember that I advised yashan sin when he was part of the NDA he was the NDA Finance Minister and he even thanks me in his book so so you're happy to have chai churcha with Prime Minister Modi as well if anybody invites me to talk in any party and I've had discussions with multiple parties which I I don't want to disclose on this thing but it's all about how can I help you on your policies I work with the MK government in in in in Chennai today I have talked of course with the congress party but I've talked with other parties also the point is how can we move this country forward and that's really what what a common Endeavor is engage with the idea not the identity engage with the idea not the identity roit I like roit has recognized the importance of the one liner in the era of sound bites and in the era of social media often misinterpreting what you say and do ignited by Prime Minister Modi over the so-called ravy culture because the other uh you know the other pattern across these states is every state competing with each other over so-called freebies now first there needs to be a clear definition of what is a freebie what is welfarism for example many believe that for the BJP in madhya Pradesh what did the trick to win an election was the LLY bana scheme simple 1250 rupees by uh uh DBT put in the uh accounts of all women below the poverty line they were more than 1.10 CR women and many believe that was the game changer now that's going to lead to every government saying okay you put in that happened in madha Pradesh kamalat said 1500 once shivat Singh Chan said 1250 he said 1,500 Chan then doubled it I'll give you 3,000 uh and and that seems to be the pattern are these cash transfers the way forward in your view are they empowering you do seem to suggest that at some level they do empower a women in a household if she gets 1250 rupees do you believe that you know that's democracy politicians want to win elections raguram Rajan and Rit lambar want to solve and you know want to look at India India's economic future the politician is looking how do I win the next election there's a mismatch no so uh you know really we want to have the debate move towards is this the best use of government money and so to some extent we are saying yes when it's targeted at the poorest households it can help that poor household feed its kids better you know Dal instead of chavel uh you know more protein uh less seral sometimes which can be beneficial uh you know send them to you know local school which is non-government because the government teacher doesn't show up uh that gives the the school some competition but gives the household some choice so those are all positive effects that can build that can allow poor households to invest in their people the problem comes when this becomes much more untargeted and becomes a competition for who can give more at which point you start bankrupting the government right so one example of a what we think is is is a no no-go area is converting the new pension scheme to the old pension scheme which we think is you know a a movement to transfer enormous amounts uh which will surely make it very difficult to conduct development spending in a government uh from but but the Congress believes it won Himachal Pradesh on the old pension scheme so suddenly the Congress was even saying we legislate to bring back the old pension scheme I think that therefore those kinds of schemes are poorly targeted because they targeted at a sector which is already doing reasonably well you just said everybody want wants to become a government official well if they want to become a government official even with the old pension scheme it means even with the new pension scheme it means they're pretty happy with the kind of job security security they getting why go back to the old pension scheme and bankrupt the government down the line so that's an example where we disagree with the kind of this because it's very poorly targeted but where it is well targeted some is okay but you have to be careful because you don't want to extend it to a point where everybody thinks that's the way forward and you're under investing in schools under investing in uh in healthare under investing in nutrition all those good things that we talking there's a very simple principle here that that works is that your transfer Raj is a ravy and my transfer is Jan Kalan so I think this is a this is a you know this is this is a this is a big this is a this is a problem I think for economists you're exactly right there is a mismatch and I think the mismatch comes through institutional checks and balances right so and a very important role in this has to be played by intellectuals the media and so on continuously informing the public because it's and I was watching your coverage and the coverage of a lot of other people who were going to the ground and talking to people and it's not as if the people don't understand understand I saw lots of young people saying that how long can we do this that there is a there's a fiscal arithmetic that you'll run up again it's not as the but I think people need to be much more informed I think the unfortunate thing is I I do think that as as people you know as as all of us whose job is to inform people we are failing at some level because I think we are becoming prisoners of set instruments you know and those set instruments as you as you're rightly pointing out have broadly come down to two you know dividing the pie of government jobs further and further into reserv and asking for or or or pushing more and more sort of welfarism and I think it's a real failure of imagination and also of communication that we are not able to expand the conversation Beyond these two instruments at this point if we want to reach amital the youth should be demanding private sector jobs and demanding more you know sort of and this this is the dialogue change that we want you're saying the dialogue is not here we're saying yes there we need to offer an alternative that people start talking about I'm look when we talk about freebi I remember as Governor uh the problem I had was that state after state was declaring a total Farm loan waiver and I said where is your money they used to come before the election they promised the Farm loan waiver after the election they'd come to me and say sir and they used to they used to say please give us uh you know U lo give us uh forbearance don't call this an NPA this that Etc now that is a problem where you don't look look at what your budget can take and

Channel: India Today

Views: 11,186

Keywords: india today, india today live, raghuram rajan, raghuram rajan live, raghuram rajan interview live, rajdeep sardesai live, Raghuram Rajan, raghuram rajan latest news, mp elections, raghuram rajan live latest, raghuram rajan latets interview live, raghuram rajan on elections, raghuram rajan on freebie, raghuram rajan on elections 2024, loki sabha election 2024, raghuram rajan latest, former rbi governor, former rbi governor interview live

Id: vopWwFegVxs

Length: 130min 20sec (7820 seconds)

Published: Sat Dec 16 2023