For Small Creatures Such As We | Sasha Sagan | Talks at Google

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SASHA SAGAN: I'm so happy to be here. The title of my book is "For Small Creatures Such as We-- Rituals for Finding Meaning in our Unlikely World." And the first part of the title comes from a line in the novel "Contact," which is the only work of fiction that my dad ever published. My dad was the astronomer and educator Carl Sagan. And he and my mom Ann Druyan, who is a writer and producer and science communicator, collaborated on many books of non-fiction essays, the television series "Cosmos." But "Contact" was the only sci-fi, the only fiction that they wrote together. And they originally wanted it to be a movie. And as they started to develop it and hope to go through the process of writing the script and getting a studio behind it and all those things, the process turned out to be much longer than they expected. And in the meantime, they wrote it as a novel. And as with everything that they created, they collaborated. And it was actually my mom who wrote the line that the title of my book comes from, which is, "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." And that became the family mantra for a philosophy that my parents communicated to me and to millions of other people-- this idea that if we're tiny in an enormous universe, if we're here for the blink of an eye, and if the scientific method is the way that we try to discern reality from fiction, and the more information we have, the smaller we are in the grand scheme of things-- well, then, what do we have? What can keep us from falling down the existential crisis of that sense of panic that we can all feel when it's like, oh my goodness, we're so little. We're here for a second. The universe goes on in all directions. We're in this tiny, out of the way planet. Well, what do we have? And the answer that they gave me was, we have one another. And we're together at this moment. And that filled me with a sense of real emotional fulfillment. The word spiritual has this religious connotation, and I grew up in a very secular household where science was the pathway to understanding. And not just to-- facts get maligned as cold and hard. And we have this relationship with provable things as though, well, they're either-- we are either very blasé about them or-- they just have this unpleasant connotation. But my parents raised me with this idea that the real, provable elements of life were beautiful and stirring and could give us that sense of connection with one another, with our place in the grandeur. An example I often think of is this idea of, if you were to tell a small child there is a secret code in your blood that connects you to your ancestors, to everyone who ever lived, to the earliest humans, to the first life on Earth, and whether you believe in it or not, it's there, and it can tell you who you're related to and how closely-- if you have a couple great science teachers in school, you might get that beautiful thrill of those moments. But so often, the things that are-- like DNA, so often the things that we learn at a young age are presented in this way where the wonder and awe gets taken away from it. And the word spirituality has this religious connotation, but I think it also can describe that feeling that wells up in your chest when you have a deep understanding of our place in the universe or how we're connected. And so that's how I was raised. And I found it very fulfilling. But secular humanism, or the scientific worldview-- it's missing some of the elements of culture that human beings around the world and throughout time have relied on. There are not holidays. There are not recipes. There are not the rituals that make up the rhythm of life. And the other thing that it's missing is a framework for how to deal with loss, with grief. And I lost my dad when I was 14, and this sent me on a path to try to understand, how can we come to terms with some of the changes that are part of human life without relying on the supernatural? And even though I grew up in a very secular household, we are also Jewish. And so some of the traditions that were passed down to me from my ancestors were still honored in our household. We still had Passover, but we had it in a very secular way. We still had Hanukkah. We still lit the yahrzeit candle, which is a candle that burns for 24 hours that you light on the anniversary of the death of someone you loved. And this combination of connecting with the traditions passed down to you, even if they were passed down by people whose theology does not match yours, but finding a way to do it in a secular style and still honor them is what really interested me. And so as I started to research holidays and traditions and rituals around the world, I noticed some parallels. So I'll read a little passage to you that addresses some of the-- I'll preface this by saying my great-grandparents were not just Jewish, they were orthodox. And when my grandfather, who was the first person in his family to go to college, came home one day from university, he had that nagging feeling in his chest of having to talk to his dad about something. And he gets into their home in-- very modest home in Queens, in New York. And he finds his father davening, praying. He waits for him to finish. And he says, Dad, I have to talk to you about something. I'm not going to keep kosher anymore. And I'm not going to go to shul. And I'm not going to go to temple, because I don't believe. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in any of the teachings that you and Mom have brought me up with. And his father looked up at him and said, the only sin would be to pretend. And that also became a family mantra. And those two events put me on the road to this. "My great-grandparents' beliefs gave shape to everything they did. I have different convictions than they, but I envy the way meaning infused their lives. Through my secular lens, I see a different meaning in their traditions. In a way, it's really science that's been inspiring rituals all along. Beneath the specifics of our beliefs, sacred texts, origin stories, and dogmas, we humans have been celebrating the same two things since the dawn of time-- astronomy and biology. The changing of the seasons, the long summer days, the harvest, the endless winter nights, and the blossoming spring are all byproducts of how the Earth orbits the sun. The phases of the moon, which have dictated the timing of rituals since the dawn of civilization, are the result of how the moon orbits us. Birth, puberty, reproduction, and death are the biological processes of being human. Throughout the history of our species, these have been the miracles, for lack of a better word, that have given us meaning. They are real, tangible events upon which countless celebrations have been built, mirroring one another even among societies who had no contact. As I see it, here we are on this rock that orbits a star in a quiet part of the spiral galaxy somewhere in the great wide vastness of space and time. On our rock, these events, changes, and patterns have an enormous impact on us Earthlings. They are important to us. We have spent a lot of time trying to decode them, to manage our expectations, to predict what's coming, to grow, to thrive, to survive. No matter when or where on Earth we live, we humans tend to schedule our most important events around the same times. Sure, Christmas and Hanukkah often fall around the same week, but so does the Dongzhi Festival in China, Umkhosi Wokweshwama among the Zulu, Yalda in Iran, and Soyal among the Hopi of the American West. And it's not just certain times of the year. It's certain times of life, too. Every culture, from the Amish to the Maasai, has coming of age rituals that, at their core, are the same as any bar mitzvah, quinciñera, or sweet 16 you've ever been to-- not to mention the vast array of human ways to welcome a newborn, marry a couple, or honor the dead. Ecstatic joy to deepest sorrow-- the heart of these rituals lies beyond belief. While our calendars have shifted and our climates have changed, politics and superstitions vary, somewhere in the depths of whatever you celebrate, there is very likely a kernel of some natural occurrence. We needn't resort to myths to get that spine-chilling thrill of being part of something grander than ourselves. Our vast universe provides us with enough profound and beautiful truths to live a spiritually fulfilling life. Nature is full of patterns, and we humans love finding them, creating them, repeating them. That's at the core of language, math, music, and even ritual, which is the repetition of words or actions deemed worthy of representing something bigger than ourselves. Some rituals are very private. Some are very public. Some are so commonplace we don't even think of them as rituals. My view is that all over the world and across time, these are all a form of art. An elaborate performance or a secret poem-- all vital in their ability to help us face the nature of time and change, life and death, and everything else we cannot control." So my hope is that this year, as we approach the holidays, whatever your family's background is or whatever your philosophy is, even the most devout people still have to make decisions about what they're going to emphasize and what they're going to let fall away. Whatever you're doing right now, your ancestors were doing it differently 1,000 years ago. And I think especially when you have young children and when you come together with a partner, you have to make these decisions about, what are you going to do? What are you going to do for the sake of tradition? What are you going to do because it reflects your values? What are you going to do just because you love it and it brings you joy? And I think especially at this time of year, there is something very profound about the way that we navigate this. A friend and I were just talking about well, do you do Santa? And how do you do it? And can it be sort of like when you see people dressed up for Halloween and you say, look, they're dressed up as witches or whatever? Or you say, oh, that's really Santa, or this isn't. And is there a way to navigate these things where you're paying homage to what you loved growing up or what your parents taught you, but still putting forth the idea that really reflects what you believe? So I'll tell you, in our family, we have Jewish traditions on my side and Christian traditions on my husband's side. And we do a secular Hanukkah. And we do a sort of secular Christmas with my husband's grandparents. But what we also do is, on the night of the winter solstice-- not in a woo-woo way, but we just say, look. Tomorrow, the days are going to start getting longer again. We live in the northern hemisphere. The planet rotates on an axial tilt. It's about 23 degrees. And because of that, the length of days change. And it's been really cold and it's been really dark. And that's hard. But tomorrow, it's going to start getting better. And regardless of what you believe, it's going to happen. It requires no faith. And it's wonderful. And I really think that alone is cause for celebration. And there's a-- in so many of our celebrations, when we peel back the specifics of time and place, there is a real, tangible, scientific phenomenon. Solstice and Equinox-- coming of age is a biological change. There's so much underneath that's provable and real that's worthy of celebration. And I think we can all find a way to do that. Even if it feels very cutting edge and new and strange, I think deep down, it's, in a way, the most traditional approach to celebration. Because before any of the dogma or specifics of the present, we all were looking up at the night sky trying to get a handle on where and when we are. And that's the root of so much of what we do. Thank you. And I'd love to take some questions. [APPLAUSE] AUDIENCE: Our son's name is Sagan after the values expressed in an essay of Carl's, so your talk was [INAUDIBLE], by the way. SASHA SAGAN: Which is so beautiful. AUDIENCE: So I texted my wife. I'm like-- SASHA SAGAN: Thank you. AUDIENCE: I texted my wife. I'm like, oh, do you have any questions that we should ask? And she said-- so her question was kind of funny. She said, what do you consider the most important blessing your parents taught you to be that you think should be passed down from generation to generation, and why? And I responded, well, she kind of answered that as the first thing she said. It's sort of the title of her book. [LAUGHTER] So I'll ask that question, or, if you already did, then what's the second most important blessing? [LAUGHTER] SASHA SAGAN: Well, it's a great question. And I think that, yeah, the title of the book is definitely inspired by one. I don't know how I would necessarily rank them. But another one that I really find so powerful and something I think about a lot is this idea that in science, as in life, we have to tolerate ambiguity. And this idea that sometimes we don't have an answer to a question, and there's this very strong urge-- it could be something really-- like the minutia of daily life, of you sent a work email and you're waiting for the response, or these deep, profound philosophical questions. And if we don't have enough evidence, if we don't have proof either way, that we have to keep that space open and tolerate that sometimes very uncomfortable feeling of not knowing what the answer is. And I'll tell you a very short story that's in my book. So besides my parents, the other adult who lived in our household growing up was named Maruha Farhay. And she was my nanny. And she was wonderful. We loved each other. And she was very devout Roman Catholic. She had been a cloistered nun in the Andes Mountains. And she left the convent, but not because of a lack of faith. I go into it in the book, but I won't right now. But anyways, she was a true believer. And she didn't drive, so my mom and I would take her to church every Sunday and stuff like that. And her priest, Father Tony, would come to dinner sometimes. Anyways, I knew that what Maruha believed and what my parents believed were totally different. And I was a little bit of a slightly morbid child, I would say. And one day, I went to my parents and I was like, Maruha says that when you die, you're with God in Heaven. And you guys say that it's like you're asleep forever without dreaming. Who's right? [LAUGHTER] And my parents in unison, like, joyfully said, nobody knows. And that was so revelatory for me, because it was like, if we don't have an answer to this question, we're not going to just put something there because we-- it's so painful, sometimes, to just have this open space. And I think that's something that really stayed with me and was so valuable and something that I still think about all the time. So I hope that answered your-- I hope you can relay that to your wife. But thank you so much. That's a great question. Please thank her for me. AUDIENCE: So one of the stronger things with tradition is not only that you do it in your family, but it's shared among the community. No matter where you go within your community, the rituals are the same. How do you do the same thing in the secular science world, where it's totally new? SASHA SAGAN: That's a great point. And I think identity and that feeling of belonging in a group is so ancient and so important. And I would say that I think the more that we look at the roots of so many of our rituals, we can find that connection when we go somewhere else. And it's not the same, but it's also not the same when you travel to a different city. And there might-- or a different country or a different community. There's always variation. And I think that the reason that we have rituals is because-- my mother always says, there's no refuge from change in the cosmos. We're trying to process change all the time. Theres' entrances and exits in life, the changing of the seasons, all this stuff. And we're trying to find a rhythm that we have to create for ourselves. And sometimes, in many cases, the infrastructure historically has been religious. But I think more and more, you see people creating it for themselves in these secular ways that maybe don't seem like they're religious, or don't seem like rituals. But if you get together with your friends or you have some community thing that you do every week, or you go every Thursday night to the bar with your friends after work, something like that-- those are these markers of time. And I think that even if you're approaching them in a secular way, if you feel connected to some ritual that your great-grandparents did or your grandparents taught you and you go to a different place, you can still find that. And you can still find that connection to them. But maybe the parts of it that you emphasize are different than the parts of it that they emphasized. AUDIENCE: I can think a handful of other authors in the secular community who have struggled with this idea of a missing cultural portion to secular humanism. SASHA SAGAN: Yeah. AUDIENCE: Do you find inspiration, or have you seen other people who have answered this question similarly or that you think have done a good job in filling that gap? SASHA SAGAN: I think that often what happens-- I mean, when there's a big change, the pendulum has to swing very far. And I think there can be a tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater sometimes. And I think as time goes on, we may come to a place where we think, there's some of this stuff that's really valuable to us, and there's some of this stuff that doesn't stand up, and we're going to let it fall away. But there are a lot of writers that I admire who write about this kind of thing. Alain de Botton has the School of Life in London, which has a interesting parallel where it's this place where people get together and talk about these deep philosophical questions, but not in a religious context. And I think there's something there. And I think that you find more and more-- like, there's so many private women's clubs that are sort of shared workspaces, but also, there are lectures that are popping up all over that have this element to them, too. While not explicitly secular opposed to religious, one way or the other, it's still creating this sense of community where people get together. And even book clubs and all these things that people create for themselves where they're asking intellectual questions, philosophical questions. And it seems to be on an upswing right now. I think that there's a correlation between that and people becoming less religious but still needing that sense of community and that sense of a regular, steady place to go. So I think that it's very interesting to see that. And I've seen a lot of discussion about this idea that, well, if you reject some elements, it doesn't necessarily mean that every element needs to go. But, yeah, there's definitely some interesting discussions about that. AUDIENCE: Having said that you and your family have some religious background and also some secular background, what are some of the aspects of each that you find most meaningful in your life? Like, is there something about coming from a Jewish tradition that you find particularly meaningful for you or your family? SASHA SAGAN: Yeah, absolutely. After two or three generations back, the only thing I know about my ancestors is that they were Jewish. I don't know their names beyond a certain point. I don't know what villages they came from beyond a certain point. But I know that thing. And so every year, my husband and I have a secular Passover Seder. And the traditional Seder is very theistic. But there are lots of versions of ways where the emphasis of the story becomes, if this is a story about people escaping slavery and oppression and finding freedom, then that becomes a story about, well, right now, people are still oppressed and enslaved metaphorically and literally by oppression, poverty, racism-- all of these things. And so it becomes this call to action as, well, what are we going to do to make things better and more just? And I think having that and having some things-- specifically, the springtime holidays are so wrapped up in the nature of what spring is. There is the theme-- and you see it in Easter, too-- of, wow, that was really close. That was almost so bad. But I think it's going to be OK. And it's like, that's what spring is. And for eons, we didn't know if we were going to make it through the winter, if everybody in your group, in your tribe was going to survive. And when you got to that point where it was like, it looks like the weather's better and the food is going to be plentiful again, that was intrinsically worthy of celebration. And I think there's something about that that you see in the religious traditions around the world that have a spring equinox-- close to the spring equinox holiday. And so, yeah, there's stuff like that I really love and connect to. But and then there's stuff that we've just made up because it was right for us and we love it and it's fun. And I think that we're-- that every family is doing that on some level, whether it's-- you're explicitly talking about it or not. AUDIENCE: So this is a vague, open-ended question. So first of all, it's really interesting that you said that "Contact" was originally supposed to be a movie before it was a book. As is so often the case-- I mean, I love the movie. [INAUDIBLE] But what really got me about the book was, first of all, that it seemed like the most intelligent discussion I've read of science and religion. And I chose and, not versus. But it was kind of the science versus religion debate wrapped up in a story. And I just thought that was-- especially when I was-- whenever I was-- in the '80s, I was a teenager. When it came out-- I don't remember when the book came out. But I thought it was really cool. But then at the end of the book, in the epilogue, the computer-- the [INAUDIBLE] computer discovers way, way, way deep in pi, this circle-- expressed in base whatever, whatever they said. And he wrote, like, the circle means that the universe was put here on purpose. At the end of that story, the conclusion is that they basically prove that the universe was created on purpose. Which is just thought was a really interesting way for a scientist like Carl Sagan to end that book. And I just wonder what you can say about that. SASHA SAGAN: Oh, I'm like, I'm going to have to ask my mom. [LAUGHTER] That is a really interesting-- I think I've-- I think that is a question for my mom, who would be able to answer that much more deeply and was much more-- I mean, I was-- that book came out when I was a very small child. And I've read it and revisited it, but they worked on-- as they did with everything, they-- she was very deeply involved in every step of that. And she could give you a much more-- I'm going to ask her. I can't wait to find out. I'll find a way to get you that answer. That's a great question. AUDIENCE: You talked a little bit about changing traditions over time. Have you thought at all about how we can-- I see a lot of value in, for example, museums. I see a lot of value in preserving things over generations and-- aside from passing these things down as if we were leaving more of a secular world perspective, how do we preserve these traditions in a way that is meaningful and in a way that they can be shared with other people? Google thinks a lot about universality of information. SASHA SAGAN: That's a really good question. And I think a lot about the-- Greek mythology is something that we're all obliged to learn in school. And it's so much in our language today. I mean, so many gods are preserved in the names of space missions and sneaker companies and things. And here is this religious tradition that, as far as I know, has no devotees left. But are there any people who believe in Zeus? Do we-- really? AUDIENCE: Yeah. SASHA SAGAN: You really-- oh. OK. I didn't know that. That's amazing. But a much smaller group than they had around 400 BC. And it's still so much part of our language and ideas. And I was totally obsessed with Greek mythology when I was a kid. I know lots of other kids who had different areas of mythological histories that they were fascinated with. And they carried on in this way. And I agree with you. When you go to a museum and you see-- sometimes, we're so removed from the idea that these were religions and that people really believed this when you see Osiris on a tomb. And I think that the ways in which we preserve these things-- I think it makes it-- the things that we're currently starting to maybe let go of, the ways in which we find to preserve them-- I think it will make it easier to let go in certain ways, because it's very hard to feel like you're the last person in your lineage to do the thing that everyone's been doing. But if we can find a way that preserves this where it's something that either can be witnessed, maybe in some virtual way for generations to come, even if people aren't participating in it the same way-- I think that that's a really deep, good question and something that is really powerful in terms of what an effect that may have on the way people start to change. That's a really good question. AUDIENCE: I suppose in some respects you've already answered this by the way that you were talking about it. But have you looked into the modern pagan traditions and polytheist traditions much? SASHA SAGAN: Yes, I see. Yes. I-- yes. In terms of the question of do people still believe in Zeus, I sort of meant continuously since that time. But in terms of a Renaissance of those elements, yeah, I have read to some degree about that. And there certainly is an overlap between some of the stuff that is in modern pagan culture and what I'm talking about. But that-- what I-- from what I've-- I think there's an element of that that still connects to some stuff that's sort of supernatural that is a little bit different-- unless I'm misinformed, which I may be-- that is a little bit different than what my area of focus is. Is that fair? I mean, tell me-- you may know much more about this than I do. Tell me. AUDIENCE: I have some friends. But I think that the main-- it varies a lot, is my impression. So there's some people who have a pagan tradition which doesn't have any belief in the supernatural and more use it as a focus for self-reflection and inner thought. And then there's other people who believe that there's some sort of in-body concept sort of thing. And then there's some people who literally believe in the legends. SASHA SAGAN: As with any religion, there are those three groups. AUDIENCE: Yeah. SASHA SAGAN: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Well, I'm-- let me know-- if there's a specific book or something that you recommend, I'm always open. I want to hear recommendations for learning. Yeah. Yeah, there is-- you do-- you're right. There is some overlap there. But it just-- it seems to be a tradition that is not emphasizing the scientific elements as much. AUDIENCE: It is definitely a different language. SASHA SAGAN: Yes. That's fair. AUDIENCE: Even if it is talking about the same things, it has different-- SASHA SAGAN: But that's a good-- that's a good point. And maybe that's something that is worth me having a discussion with some people who are more involved in that. That's a really good point. AUDIENCE: If you look at society from a technology standpoint, I would say that we have grown too fast, in a way to speak, over the recent decades. I feel like that, in some way, also aligns to what you're talking about. As we get overwhelmed with information, social media, whatever it is, I feel like our understanding of the world is completely downed. Like, everything else is telling us, we know more. You can do more. But at the same time, they're telling you you have to do more. And I feel like that disconnects us more with everything. I think we have less tangible understanding on anything now than we did before. The rapid growth that we've been seeing-- is that also affecting our understanding of, I don't know, like "spirituality"? Your less-codified version of "spirituality"? Like, I would have to imagine that the more we get sucked into social media, the less understanding-- we don't even look at the stars half the time. SASHA SAGAN: Oh, yeah. AUDIENCE: How does that impact our ability to adapt-- let's say, referring to the same argument, that we're letting go of some religions and taking something else, or using something else to satisfy that need. Are we growing so fast that we can't find things that are tangible enough to replace that with? SASHA SAGAN: That's a really good question. I would argue that it starts almost with the Industrial Revolution and moving into cities and not being in your-- leaving your community and all these things. The question, though, about the relationship between technology and spirituality is such a good one. And actually, a friend of mine-- I don't know if you know Greg Epstein. He's the secular humanist chaplain at MIT and Harvard. And he has a column in "Tech Crunch" about how technology is a kind of religion, in a way, and how it has-- I mean, even the language of "followers" on social media is so explicit in its parallels to this. And there are certainly-- and the idea that these promises that historically have been religious that technology has provided, like, in a form of-- you know, somebody dies, you can still see them. It's like a ghost. And for most of human history, that wasn't possible. There are all these ways in which technology has provided, has made good on promises that historically religion has made and maybe not been able to deliver. And so I think there is something there that is a really deep and profound question, that there is a parallel there. But there's also this other way in which technology, I think, has made our lives sort of more traditional, because it's like, we used to live in tribes where everybody knew what everybody was doing all the time. And then we moved to cities, and we were so removed from everyone. And now, we all know what everyone's doing all the time in this way. And I grew up with my best friends, and they're still my best friends. And we're together in this way, even though we live all over this continent, that we wouldn't ever have been without technology. We "see" each other and "speak" to each other every day. And that's the way we would have lived in a village until very recently. And so I think there's a lot in there. But, yes, I think that it's true. This is a very big change in our culture. And I think there is a parallel to the philosophical and spiritual changes that people are having, too. It's a really good, big question. AUDIENCE: I have a quick follow-up if no one else-- SASHA SAGAN: Yeah. AUDIENCE: Do you have any particular-- like, you mentioned rituals, habits, daily things? Something like a day where you just unplug? SASHA SAGAN: This idea of Shabbat, where you are unconnected to the outside world-- until electricity and all these things. And I think the prevalence and popularity of meditation and mindfulness-- which meditation comes from a religious tradition but has taken on this totally secular life of its own-- is because people do crave that. And I think that's totally related to this. And I think it's like anything. Like I was saying, the pendulum has to swing. You go all the way in one direction, you're going to have to get to a place where you come back to a more even middle. [AUDIO OUT] SASHA SAGAN: That's a good question. I think it's up to the individual. And I think it's up to the particular event. You know what I mean? And I think there's a way to do it that's not necessarily heavy handed, but still celebrates the real information that we have. And I talk about in the book, like when I was a kid, the best thing that I could do in my parents' eyes is to ask you a question to which they did not know the answer. And that we'd have to, in those days, go look it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica, because we did not have the wonderful thing that you all make. And that became a ritual-- this idea of getting more information and finding out more. And then you would get, oh, well, what's that? And what does this word mean? And what's this person I've never heard of? And then you'd follow the thread to something else. And that is explicitly more understanding. But then there are other things that-- if you're having a party or you're having an event because it's December and you live in the northern hemisphere, and it's cold, and dark, and you need some merriment, you don't have to go into the axial tilt. You know what I mean? That's up to you. I would argue for not making it too heavy handed. But I think that there's something there where it's like finding the root of what you're doing and why, and not just going through the motions because you feel obliged. And actually finding out, well, what is this about and why are we doing it? And especially if you have small children and you want to explain what's going on here, I think that there's a way to do it where it's the through line, but it doesn't rob us of the sense of festivity and pleasure that we all crave. AUDIENCE: I'm curious if you've put much thought into how to use these sorts of rituals to build a wider community. I know you said you see your interactions with people that are across the country as very much similar to a small village life, but there is definitely something to being with people in person that you can't really get through-- SASHA SAGAN: Absolutely. AUDIENCE: --chat platforms and social media. SASHA SAGAN: Absolutely. Yes. I completely agree. And I do talk about-- like, I lived in New York most of my adult life. And I would have a monthly dinner. And it didn't start out as I'm going to start this whole thing that I'm going to become really dogmatic about planning and all this stuff. But it became this thing that was really important to me and my friends. And people had connection-- made connections and friendships and worked together and all these things that were born out of it. And, yeah, I think that you're absolutely right that the in-person dynamic-- I think we are very removed from it. And that's something that I-- and I write this in the book. For me, one of the hardest things about being secular is you have to really work to congregate. And that is really something that we're missing. And I think you do see stuff popping up that fills that. There are secular quasi-church things that you see, or very, very reformed-- churches that are almost secular that you see especially in large cities. And like I said, different clubs that people are members of, sports, things that people do. But I think that you're right. I think that there is still something missing in the culture that gives us that feeling of, well, we're in it together, and we're going to see each other even when we don't really feel like it. You know what I mean? Unlike a birthday party or something like that. And I think, for me, one of the really useful and positive elements of that is-- a version of that is volunteering. And it serves the same purpose in this way that-- I mean, that's the thing I admire most about religion is the social pressure to do good works. And it's like, if you go somewhere and volunteer every week, or whenever you can, you see the same people. You share some value, probably, if you're all there together. And you're working towards something. And you build these relationships over time. And so I think that can be an element of that. But, yeah, I agree. There is something that we haven't quite figured out in secular life to fill that void. AUDIENCE: Hi. I haven't read your book, as well, so [INAUDIBLE].. SASHA SAGAN: That's fine. [INAUDIBLE] AUDIENCE: I'm curious whether-- SASHA SAGAN: No pressure, guys. AUDIENCE: Yeah. Coming from an Eastern tradition, we haven't had that much of a two cultures distinction between science and religion. And the two have been much more entwined, including non-theistic traditions have been very much part of Eastern religion. Do you talk about that in any way in your book, or do you address that? SASHA SAGAN: Specifically the idea that this is a Western problem? Because I agree with you. I mean, that is a totally valid point. Is that what you mean? AUDIENCE: Yeah, and do you talk about how the two have coexisted, including non-theistic and theistic traditions have coexisted in Eastern philosophy? SASHA SAGAN: Yes. I think there are definitely-- yes, there are elements of that. And there are elements of holidays and traditions that started out as religious and transformed into something that's more cultural. I think-- and this is something that's been totally co-opted in the West, but something like yoga, which is a very widespread, popular thing that comes out of a religious tradition but now has taken on a totally other, secular, maybe philosophical, but not religious life. Yes, that is something that is a really good point. And I think you're right-- this idea that it is more of a Western problem, the idea that there is this friction between these two things, rather than there being some more openness to overlapping. [APPLAUSE] Thank you so much. Thank you.
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Channel: Talks at Google
Views: 14,734
Rating: 4.8111587 out of 5
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Id: Sk0tYv3T0pY
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Length: 44min 58sec (2698 seconds)
Published: Fri Jan 17 2020
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