Fix It Again, Tony! (FIAT No-Crank w/Keith: Super Saturday Special)

good morning everyone it's the day after Super Saturday I guess was following me in his rental Kia the legend Keith DeFazio we got one more diagnosis today and then I'm gonna head north he's gonna head back home South to uh North Carolina what do we have uh 2012 Fiat 500. so the owner he's been bugging me to come down and look at this beached whale Fiat uh he said he was just driving one day parked it and never started a crank no start one shop said he needed a timing belt another shop told him he needed an engine computer so I this sounds interesting very different uh guess it's by a couple other shops so once we get there I think we'll get Keith on the job because he's been itching to get his hands on cars he's been doing uh tech support for a couple years now on his company and he says he just misses being out in the field working with his own hands just man against car so I think uh I might just hold the camera and let him uh do his magic here we go all right we're on site July 28th 22. that's when we take this so we got a little baby Beast whale fee out here it's been off the road since July so what four or five months there's the owner it's uh he said it's just taking up space here and not much space not much space yeah so the symptoms right now are well we could barely get the key into the ignition we turn the key on there's no check engine light we don't see a park neutral uh Prindle display too bad it's an automatic I don't know who buys one of these in automatic but it's a no crank so that's where we are Keith wants to use the Snap-on Zeus I don't know why because we're gonna give it a try we're gonna give it a try everybody likes to play with new tools right all right yo go for it so we got the top done battery charger on here 13.5 volts the battery is pretty spanked but we'll uh we'll keep the maintainer on there all right let's see if we can even talk no I didn't go right into automatic Vin entry oh yeah look at this wait oh yeah you have to wait 30 seconds yeah trial extension has been applied yeah yeah what is this not unofficial oh yeah so I just play with things that's that's what I like Keith is a beta tester I like to play with this tell me something's good let's see so this is not what you could buy as a Snap-On truck this is the uh no this is the one you can buy off the Snap-on truck now there they have the Zeus plus out now which is the uh the one there that actually did taking the scope module off of it all right so we're gonna try auto yep let's do Auto ID and set that already picked it up right away not that not the hot not the hot hats uh so we're going sport right here FB so we did get the vent anybody that still didn't actually decode that it's an FB isn't it interesting why does it take five times to hit the button I think it's something to do with my finger see the pink two Pros are there it doesn't have those issues I think I'm supposed to be using this silly little oh fancy pen thing over here that comes along with it so no it's not that parking assist we went right into parking assist because I think yeah yeah right of course it didn't respond the first time around all right well we'll do a code scanners on camera though right yeah yeah I think you need some improvement um this is taking a little while although I think now that you actually just came out one more version of this the new software I think it's uh version 24. so I probably didn't do the update it's probably okay let's see what can you let's do a Health Report like any modern scanner yeah okay we'll time it absolutely and then I want to try you know the old trusty there oh yeah this is okay no no that's parking breaker keep in mind right so it actually doesn't have one so we're gonna do code scan on here yep pre right so you got a Time so they're going to call it a pre-scan on this one over here it's going to detect all codes yes and it starts now all right well we'll turn the camera back onward clock on the this says 10 13 a.m okay I'm starting at 10 13. and we still have zero systems analyzed it might be a completely no communication we should see all right so we got nine modules okay okay two minute uh smart scan uh what do we have here in the ABS we have IPC instrument panel cluster lost communication okay battery voltage don't care TCM missing message battery voltage but then the BCM says can't talk to the TCM can't talk to the EPS I'm assuming that's ill what is it what is EPS that's the electronic power student power steering okay yep yrs insert panel cluster ABS PCM okay now how do you save this report so it actually saves it automatically saves automatically okay automatically like the old snap on yep okay cool yep now just to curiosity here I also notice right away there that actually sits there and it shows that there was OBD code so three there was nothing really shown up there but it does show up into two permanent codes zero zero there's a no codes in the OBD2 so where was the engine where is the engine control module P so last communication with PC and we see that yeah in the BCM but I don't see the engine control and I don't see a transmission control good okay hey it sounds like uh like the Mercedes has just worked on it sounds like fun okay we're gonna pull up some diagrams with the communication lines and we'll we'll see where it goes originally so for comparison we're going to use the think tool Pros logging the Fiat see if it auto IDs do a Health Report automatically search so the Zeus does not have the nice topology mapping of the modules which which this tool does have and we'll see if the modules are gray then can't talk to him all right so think tool took like two minutes to ID the car probably because it has to translate from Italian to Chinese to English or something but we only have like 10 modules so let's do a smart scan see what uh modules you said well let's see eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen possible potential so TCM we expect no communication PCM probably no communication um so you mean it took two minutes just for it yeah so we're at 10 22 and we're scanning the the second module here this might not be faster than uh than the snappy all right so we have a red tree here nine modules red just like the Snap-on so that that fits TCM PCM are offline okay so that's you know that's an issue so we're gonna do a report uh how many miles this thing has can you read the odometer yeah 79 000 miles I guess it's pretty high mileage for Fiat right Keith [Music] so basically from here uh wiring diagrams we'll see what the communication Network layout is powers and grounds standard procedure okay so here are the OE diagrams for the uh the network can see we've got our BCM datalink connector electronic power steering and then the PCMS right here can't talk to that ABS that is online and that actually is a pass through from the transmission control module which is a pass through from the shift assembly shift lever which is a pass-through from the uh what the heck is this thing Dynamic sensor what's the sensor Dynamics yep so that's going to be it's a model multi-axis sensor so one that sits there like you on G right okay that's not actually on the no on the topology so basically right now we're not suspecting a network wiring problem because if you can talk to ABS then all this is good but why can't we talk to the TCM so we're going for powers and grounds here the transmission and the equation what can network is on there can see can see you know we can open up another window there are I mean you want to look at the uh so so on is it on another Network there yes so here are the here are the networks we have can't see bus system manual transmission that's not us can be and can't see automatic transmission Lin bus and bus system automated okay so here was one thing I noticed right away if you take a look up over here one of the codes that was in here said IPC instrument panel cut note on the B can missing message note on B can so if you want to pull up the B cam so that's what I'm curious too right okay if it's making mention of it all right let's pull up B inder is seeing the IPC but the IPC can communicate separately so radio uh airbag this whole this big box is let's see there's a cluster body control module that's our Gateway okay we've got HVAC is good convergence telematics that's good so most of the ones that are on tire pressure yep it's a code we can ignore right at least for now okay so so next diagram is going to be PCM TCM powers and grinds I think that's the way to go yeah all right so we're going after powers and grounds for the engine computer which is right here and the transmission controller now obviously start with the fuses since their fuse box is right here easy to check this is the engine computer so we have an ignition power coming from the ignition switch through fuse F16 7.5 amp and battery power fuse F18 5 amp so let's locate these on the fuse box fuse 18 is the fifth one down in the first row so make sure our test light works connected to battery ground one two three four five that's the 5 amp hot on that side on that side so the battery power to the east to the ECM is supposedly good [Applause] fuse F-16 7.5 amp that's the ignition power that's the third one up from the bottom so see that hot on that side on that side okay so check and check next let's look at the transmission diagram right here there's not enough room on this uh engine cover key for a mouse so we have again fuse F16 7.5 amp already checked that and then fused battery power fuse f84 10 amp and fuse 84 is right there so one two three four five up three four five up so hot on that side oh now we're getting somewhere so that fuse is blown right there so what would your next step be Keith if you don't have a pulsar um good true test light and put your test light across there and see if it's a dead short degree what's your uh what's your amperage of choice for for short to ground or the test light for this here you could actually use your 5 amp yeah yeah the big one will be fine for this because the fuse is what 10 amp so let's uh let's get some adapters put in the 5 amp test light see if it's a direct short to ground or if the transmission controller comes back to life all right so here's our we'll just set it on the four amp setting here so when I plug in this right here if the test light lights up brightly there's probably a short you just heard something click oh you put in new turn signals how nice let's boost it to 5 amp here so it's a 10 amp fuse so there if the Tesla is bright there's a pretty significant voltage drop right Keith yeah so what's what's going on here we see a Prindle we see p do you think it's safe to put in a fuse and it won't pop well you got something buzzing down there yeah that's the transmission controller yep so basically it's drawing amps until let's do this since we have it there right now before we actually put a fuse in there so communication wise it seems like it's turning on and off though so I don't know if this is reliable test we could put more more amperage on there but yeah yeah let's go ahead and you know we'll rescan and confuse everybody else by the way we were sitting here playing around and we were doing more you know oh yeah this is another uh Keith bra all his toys there's lots of toys um this is the the Matco yep so we'll go back out yeah and just tell them that system scan cancel that sorry system selection and then let's go in there PCM first let's make sure TCM right because we got that blinking there so just to make sure at least that it'll communicate that way you know it actually it actually read right away so just the old 100 there but it's still saying it lost communication with the ECM PCM so let's go back out and you're gonna try to talk to the PCM which is down here in the bottom right may or may not talk because we didn't find any bad powers to going to the PCM right so the question is there in in that can message is there it was did it have to go through the TCM first right even though we didn't look that way in the diagram is there another path you have to go through the ab it had to go through the ABS well ABS was there on netcam right so then you have your so you have a can be can you have your KND can see there's a c and a b but there should be also a d can though oh no that's right there's no Gateway on this because it's too old so no right away for this so so right from the DLC it goes to C and then also to B so so now we can tell though this is not gonna it's not talking to the engine computer but we got the TCM back online tcm's back so we should put in an actual fuse now it's not gonna blow yep clear all the codes out you know so you see what happens cycle the key and go from there yeah all right so here's the full code scan let's clear all dtcs you can see the transmission is back online we replaced that blown fuse cuts the battery power then we'll rescan it and then Chase why is the engine computer offline so we have three codes left in the entire car yep so e-track is saying ECM missing messages IPC is saying ECM missing messages and the TCM is saying lost communication with ECM fantastic um let's get to this computer check powers and grounds at the connector and also the the communication lines see if uh if those are active all right so let's uh shut the key off Keith says let's just take off these connectors off the ECM we gotta do that anyways because well we need what we do know is we're looking at the locks over here one lock is actually open one lock is actually locked all the way on there so we know that this was at another shop and maybe we're tinkering around who knows what happened right so that's that's one by the way what a brilliant idea to sit there and put the positive battery cable next to a casing that needs to be grounded hey it is integrate it has an internal ground on the case just the little vibrations all it takes and I'm not saying that if they took the battery out that there's a possibility okay the pins on that one look okay and then pins on this one look okay so what since we have the connector off let's look out the look up the pin outs and do a couple quick checks and powers and grounds and communication so here are the PCM connectors and it's a little confusing which pins which but pin 50 this red and black wire and 50 is the fuse battery positive and indeed with test light we see that it's nice and bright so that's the first one let's check ignition power all right go ahead turn key on Keith yep we got ignition power uh next check let's check the grounds now I don't know if this diagram is going to show it ignition coils yep here we go there's all the grounds one two four and then on C3 we have one now I don't know where C3 is because I only see C1 and C2 not exactly sure but the grounds are right here these big fat black wire so let's check those with them so is there a C1 C2 C3 C4 because what you have here if you look closely at these yeah these are connectors inside connectors uh-huh and that's very very common in the Euro world so let's say so in this case here you do have three connectors there's a large one that you were working on there is the C1 right yes CNC3 and the others you think this is C1 and then that's C2 and C3 even though this one is also split up the same way oh so then you could pass maybe there no that could absolutely be on this one then yep you think this is C1 and C2 yeah so what you have here is you can actually remove those yeah actually come right out so they'll actually I see where you're saying the clip itself there it just keeps them in line okay okay so we're still looking for C1 but pin 88 which is orange and black and we just proved that that was good so that's saying that this is all C1 because I was just on the black portion that was pin 50 and pin 88 is on the orange portion right so that's probably right then so that's all probably your connector one that's all C1 okay very interesting and so let's check the grounds with the with the big test light all right so with a bright test light from batteries positive let's check these three three big ground wires we got one check and two check and three checks so powers and grounds look good so we're with the PCM unplugged we're on the communication lines look looks beautiful two and a half volt bias can high can low mirror images we drop the time base down if you want to zoom in put a trigger on there there what do you think Keith looks pretty good yeah yeah very good no small message no error messages everything there looks pretty good okay if you don't see any bad packets no what would you look for there was just something that looks like it's repeatable where it's actually an errant message so something that's actually like a very very small packet right and nothing like that there okay so I'm gonna double check the wiring diagram one more time for make sure we're not missing any powers and grounds so we have ignition constant battery I don't know if there's might be a wake up line or some sort but we'll double check but looking at this point like this engine computer is just not happy and look it is made in Italy it's magneti Morelli I've seen this before on a 1965 Benelli uh little scooter moped I didn't know they made engine computers oh yeah wow oh yeah that's impressive this thing's actually made in Italy for the engine computer you also see it has this main relay it's like the ASD relay and Chrysler terms and it's ground side switched by pin 52 ASD relay control so I'm pulling that down with my test light the relay clicked and I want to make sure that these three fuses are powered up if you use 11 17 and 22 which are conveniently 11 17 and 22. and that's good that's good and that's good or fuse box numbering system they're not quite an order but hey at least they grouped them somewhat and right here to the engine computer fuse 22 goes to pins three five and six those are actually the the thicker wires right here so three five and six let's just you know to be 110 percent make sure that the power is making it to there to there and last one to there okay my question is when the computer is plugged in and the key's on is the ASD relay being switched on when the computer sees an ignition input from the key it should power on the ASD relay so let's plug everything in and see if these fuses get you know turned on when the computer is supposed to be on otherwise uh we're kind of we're just about ready to call this engine computer right Keith well with the key on we have no power at the any of these fuses so the ASD relay is not even being turned on by the engine computer and a couple interesting notes the owner said before it went to this whatever shop it actually cranked and Keith noticed on the little right up here uh there were some yeah yeah you can fold over the top there were some engine computer codes right like so so if you read it first he actually says up here he says vehicle has communication errors with modules ECM and TCM no not communicating with the system most likely module failure it couldn't be any more broad but then when you look at the dtcs that were present those first three ignition coil circuit right no other man no other module can set that other than the ECM the map sensor circuit the map sensor circuit again but what about last communication with itself or is that from so this is probably going to be from another one of the modules that's out there so you all 100 this would be probably yeah you know something that's uh IPC BCM I guess BCM so so so this is you know just this whole Health Report they didn't break it down they didn't break it then so it's not as helpful as it could be right but you know these but the P codes are obviously from an engine computer so yeah it did talk at some point but it's not talking right now right that's unfortunate so since we have really nothing to lose we just want to manually energize the starter and see how this thing cranks because you don't want to say hey put an engine computer in it if the engine's junk so the 5 amp test light when it connected it from Battery positive to the starter solenoid wire it gave us a really sad and now we just have a bright test light so we're gonna go a little beefier 30 amp fuse worst case scenario we'll pop the fuse right Keith here we go multi-years down right there that's okay that's okay that's the multi-air sound good that's what it sounds like the ECM is not controlling keep in mind this thing these things here are their intake valves electronic so it sounds like it has low compression or something but that's but that's normal normal because you have no movement of the multi-air right now you heard one like good compression stroke and then okay I keep minding out of this fire code on this thing originally that were the ignition coil so uh-huh you know but but that's that sounds like a good healthy car okay so right now engine computer programming where's the nearest Fiat dealer okay it's only an hour away you might be in luck so we're done here diagnosed but unfortunately some parts will be required and the owner will keep me updated on what happens and it was really fun to go to Super Saturday hang out with Keith here I think you had a good time finally got to play around with a real live car instead of being on the phone all day so that's a good vacation for him yeah yeah we did a couple cars yeah um so that's it thanks a lot for watching and we'll see in the next one all right what's the price

Channel: Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics

Views: 85,651

Keywords: Fiat, crank, ECM, module, starter, timing, power, ground, communication, junk

Id: Q8gh3EpfW_o

Length: 26min 44sec (1604 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 19 2022