Fighting Antisemitism: The ISGAP Hour - "Fighting Antisemitism on the Left & Right"- Natan Sharansky

[Music] [Music] so as you know today we have a very special speaker Natan shansky who's the chair of isgap which is a a tremendous honor for is the isgap team that Nan is with us and before I introduce Natan I also want to introduce abital shansky natan's wife and I remember many of us who know from the struggle for sovet jury AV was the The Voice not only for Nan when he was in prison but really for the uh struggle for the the rights of Jewish people and Soviet citizens in those days it was really a voice for uh defending Jewish people and Jewish culture with an amazing dignity uh so we're honored that you're here so thank you for being here and uh so it's a great pleasure to be able to introduce you to nwn who's the chair of isga and as many of you know was uh the the voice for the dissent movement in the former Soviet Union and for the freedom of Jewish people and the rights of Jewish people and he as you know uh uh paid for his convictions and didn't allow a tyrannical powerful regime to change his convictions and he served in in uh prison and then was freed uh and moved to Israel immediately moved to Israel in a very dramatic moment not only in the life of the sheris but I think in the life of the Jewish people and natana went on to become a leader in Israel and served in uh various Israeli governments and various ministerial ministerial PHS and then was the head of the Jewish agency and then he stepped up to become the chair of his so today and Nana has written widely on many issues of Jewish peoplehood and culture and also very important work on anti-Semitism and today he's going to address us on issues of anti-Semitism in the Contemporary country so Nan the floor is yours thank you [Applause] yeah well I'll try to speak about contemporary context but of course without looking on what happened at least in the last 40 years it will be difficult uh and we speaking about anti-Semitism we always have to remember that uh anti-Semitism has many faces uh usually it's changing with the changing of Jewish Identity or as people feel what is the central component of our identity and uh that's where anti-Semitism usually moves uh uh when it was mainly religion of course there was uh religious anti-Semitism in the first not the first thousand years of Christianity uh and in different other forms when nationalism became fashionable and the 19th century anti-Semitism attacked the nationalism uh Nation race of Jews uh and when uh important part of Jewish identity became Israel so in fact uh uh anti Zionism became modern anti-Semitism and at this very moment anti-Semitism grows on the left and on the right and in the Western Europe and in the Eastern Europe in different forms and we have always we have to remember that it can easily it is easily moving and is adopted different types of anti-Semitism are uh adopted by different groups so if you are not challenging anti-Semitism simultaneously on all the front it's uh it's become fruitless and that's exactly the challenge uh of today uh well let's start from thing that happened only few weeks ago milon kotari who is there is United Nations and there is human rights committee United Nations and this Committee created uh the commission of the inquiry of the causes root causes of the violence between Israel and Palestinians and it's very special commit Commission because it's not limited work it can work for 20 years for 50 years and he is one of three members respectable member from India and sometime ago a few weeks ago he was uh giving interview and there he said practically in the same paragraph he said two things that uh Jewish the Jewish Lobby controls the social media and that he doesn't understand why with it record Israel is the member of United Nations from 193 countries I have to say that it was immediately protested by the representatives of Britain and Germany and France and un States of America and two three days ago he sent the letter of apology to to the head of the human rights committee so uh and I'm not now going to discuss how sincere this apology and let's give him a credit uh not uh at least he apologized it's not really happening regularly with politicians it doesn't happen at all with journalists sometimes but it's not about it he writes that how he didn't think well how he sorry saying automatically but the fact that I I think in fact he presented his by his remarks very powerful idea because it's very that in one paragraph you can say one of the oldest theories of anti-Semitism that Jews control the world Jews control finances Jews control uh the media and now of course social media and if you go to the uh the Elders of Zion the book of Elders of Zion protocol of Elders of Zion written by sist Poli or how many it's probably 150 years ago or if you go even older and definitely Nazi propaganda this phasis of classical anti that Jews control the world is is B at the same time and he said there something which characterizes new anti-Semitism it could not be ancient you need Israel for this and Israel is singled out for 193 members of United un Nations and why is there not China who keeps 5 million Urus in in awful prison and not Cambodia which killed half of this population and not Syria and we all know what's happened and happening in Syria and not any other country why Israel so singling out Israel it's it's definitely sign of this new and and he shows the connection in fact he said that we have the second one because it is where difficult for us to work uh because there is uh the first one so connection between uh old and new anti-Semitism connection which is so strongly denied today is there obvious and the fact that he said it automatically without thinking and as he himself explains it's only strength of the point well I'll take give you example from my different life uh in prison my closest friend became and we are keeping in contact until now uh Christian activist Vladimir por and uh he was relatively young uh we all young ones and he was uh rather enlightened as a Christian activist and he was publishing some all magazine open Christianity and for this he was put in prison and uh it was very interesting for us to talk and to become together in our fighting against KB but while we were telling to one another about different holes and so on and I was speaking with him about how say English yeah he said oh yeah I know it's it's it's uh you all celebrating it at the time of last supper and really if you think it's Easter and and you're drinking red wine because of the blood of Christ so I was a little bit shocked and I said uh do I look like the one who is drinking blood of Christ he said no of course not about but 400 years 50 500 years probably it was like this and then I said you do you know that uh SED P probably is 1,000 years old than last supper so for thousand years we people didn't know that there is Christ they were drinking red wine uh so I want to say was the beginning of conversation in then of course uh he knew everything correctly but simply the fact that it was so natur he didn't want to insult me it only shows how deep were the prejudices and the same here the fact that he said it if you read even watch him he said it very natural without thinking he's Indian human rights activist so it simply shows how this connection between old all the theories about Jewish power and today's choosing Israel for the how it's naturally connected so for those of us who are from the so former Soviet Union or those who are old enough to to remember Soviet Union there is not there nothing new in in Soviet Union uh well I I was born in the be 1948 so I grew as a boy in the in the 50s that was the biggest and last campaign of Stalin and then after he died other against Jewish culture Jewish inen when all the Jewish Po and simply shot dead and when Jews were I that was the beginning of strong discrimination Jews at the same time it was a time when uh Soviet Union was among the F who recognized Israel hoping that Israel will become their tool to fight Britain and then immediately after this they saw that it very independent and not only independent fighting with Pro Soviet uh regimes and uh so became a Target and in so Soviet press there was really no difference there was published this awful cartoons where Jews were taken straight from Nazi propaganda but they were presenting Zionist big Zionist I say this awful enemy octopus yeah and it goes straight to the fifth column to these Jews and those are called Nations those are called cosmopolites but all one big world and when anti campaign was every Jew who had no idea what Israel is is in trouble he will be discriminated H and why also they speaking about uh Jews as agents of Zionism and it was very natural even later already in the 70s 20 years later I'm in prison and uh uh I am accused for human rights and zist activity and my as an an official spokesman of moment my natural Partners were American journalists and American diplomats who were trying who were helping us to keep contact with all the world and in my case in order to show how it's all one big Zionist uh plot and they have character references from KGB on all these people and there is character reference on David sheer from New York Times and it is written there that he's Jewish and they know very well that he's not and there is character reference of Robertos from Los Angel time and he it is written that he's Jewish and he's not so you have to understand it's KGB it's well awful organization but on basic facts they're trying to be true but it is so important that Z spod and Jews all over the world are one part and even more like my main accomplice was scoop Jackson Democratic senator Jackson who was the first who linked human rights and foreign policy and who said without free free immigration there will be no free trade and he was our big uh big hero It Was Written in my case that he's also Jewish and everybody knows it's nonsense but it was so important to build this connection between Zionist world and Jewish World they did more than this at some moment they they collected like there were 51 volume in this case so they had to fill it with a lot of information one of uh 100 Pages before the letters of Soviet CI citizens who are protesting against Zionist propaganda and they put these letters in the case and the during the court they said what better proof we need that there is anti-Semitism Soviet Union because all these letters were about how Jews are controlling the world uh how Jews are uh destroying us from inside and how Jews are loyal to Israel so uh you see the voice of people the Zionism and uh the and uh Jews are the same and anti Zionism and anti-Semitism it's goes together so when you're coming from the Soviet Union you understand automatically they are the same and you even understand why because dictators always need external enemy in order to mobilize people to the fight because people depend from them and they need internal enemy in order to have strong repression inside the country these are the two tools of dictators it's mobilizing people against external enemy and repressing people because of internal enemy and so Jews were ideal they are at the same time they are internal and external enemies so you don't need to have too many you have uh uh uh how you say two for one price yeah that's that's what you have yeah no one for two whatever you you'll finish the comparison so now I'm coming to the free build and of course if it is uh connected with dictators so thanks God I'm now in free world and joying so and then the time when I'm already in the government and one of the topics that I was responsible was also relations with the Jewish diaspora and fight against Santi civism and in 2000 there is Durban conference which for few years was prepared by United Nations and the main the first conference Global against Global racism and there were so many topics which have to be addressed racism is really awful crime and we have to overcome it and then it turned only in one topic it's the crimes of Israel against Palestinians and well uh it it was said for me because well in 1975 there was resolution in United Nations Zionism the racism and I was in Moscow but at least at that moment all the free world was against it it is Soviet Union and allies and some fist regimes in the world they were those who were for this these time so many leaders in the Free World in one or another way directly indirectly supported the agenda and then we have almost immediately after this we have so-called second NE when every month hundreds and hundreds Israelis are killed because of suicide bombing and uh I I in the government and we have to take some very dramatic uh uh decisions uh especially after one SED PES 30 people the table of s PES were killed and that months 150 people were killed so no country can uh stand against this so we decided to send troops in those centers where from which terrorists are coming and Janine was the center and then and all the night was debate and it was decided unanimous and it was Unity government so they were from all the sides and it was decided when we go there we are not using tanks we are not using aviation we go house to house and we we accused for this because it means that our soldiers will be killed because we don't want more victim and then there was battle in Janine and we were accused that that's the wor Massacre after the second world war in this battle 43 Palestinians were killed 23 of them were terrorists and 20 fromation 26 isra soldiers were killed so we were accused by Israelis by many Israelis that 26 soldiers were killed because he didn't want to use more powerful weapon and after all what is the proportion of killing uh you kill 203 terrorist you kill 20 civilians and 26 of our people at the same time ah and say that there were thousands buried alive and so on of course like week after this not one was and so the it's it's clearly like and suddenly you see what starts all over in the Free World not among the terrorists and how we accused before even checking anything in all awful things and then there is and I know I was in the government I wasn't this decision so it's not that I was in prison hoping that something is different and here uh I see the cartoon which is published in independent and Caron is Ariel sh on eating Palestinian kids the the blood is dropping from his mouth and he says what's the problem didn't see politician kissing kids and the r Shon is there straight from those awful cartoons of Soviet times which is straight from uh D whatever it was the name so I say that is anticip so obviously connected so and I speak to the cartoonist in Britain I came to Britain I speak to the he says what an answers it's I disagree maybe you agree but I disagree with the policy of uh Israel government and that's how I express it then uh uh British Union of journalists give to this the best cartoon of the year and some special price and they say it's legitimate criticism of Israel and then European Union gives it the best cartoon uh of the year in Europe then comes the Nobel Prize win in literature uh samarang I think from H yeah and he says on the press conference I was in Palestinian refugee camp that is our sh of today you said I was a number of times in Palestinian refugee thing okay I think it's real disgrace that fifth generation of Palestinians lives in ref comes and we can argue who has to be blamed why it is and there there is uh there is a whole story there behind it but even the V Palestinian camp that I was cannot be connect to compare to so and I was independent naal obser election nothing to compare with aitz what it has to do with a and again when I speaking about it that's critics of Israel what what you want and so on and so on and there were many other examples that's when I said that we do need to find the way how to separate between legitimate critics of Israel you know even illegitimate was criticism of Israel Israel should be open to criticism as everybody in free world and and clear anti-Semitism clear connection between this criticism of Israel and classical anti and that's how this 3D were born uh well I tell you frankly that the idea from which it was born somehow didn't uh didn't catch the idea was that when you come to the cinema of 3D film and you don't put the spectacle 3D spectacles you will not understand what's happening yeah the moment you put the 3D spectacles suddenly you see that is the man that is the horse so I said I want to apply the same principle to anism what are the tools of classical an let's forget about the new the clear tool one is uh demonization seeu once said that for antisemite Jew is the closest to Satan and uh uh really if you look on the good old days uh of the first centuries of Christian well even before Christianity definitely all the blood liel uh all this accusation that Jews were poisoning the uh the wells many other Jews were really what is the legitimization when something absolutely absurd is said and it's very frightening and there is no truth in it uh well if you uh go to well there is a lot of examples of the legation of Jews so I was saying let's look at today's world and about Israel when uh when when such cartoon or it's told that uh uh refugee camp is AIT that's the closest to Satan the closest to this symbol of Satan is aitz so you're you're comparing it with this and later in Haiti there was uh awful earthquake in Haiti and Israel team was the first who came and such a rare thing I an American they see on CNN big catalog article very positive about is and accusation how it is that our government we are just now near hati we couldn't be there and have this hospital to save so many people and then on one internet somebody on the internet puts but you know why soldiers came they harvesting the organs of the people in order to sell them Israeli soldiers are harvesting the organs you can say nonsense and there any such thing it's does need to to be denied then I think that today more people in the world believe that it was L than opposite and there was special request in bundist and in British Parliament Pro I don't one or two members on the right but there was asked to investigate this case that's uh well uh demonization of our time times when uh really awful thing happened with the death of George Floyd George Floyd there and the anger was sincere and demonstration were sincere and by the way most of the Jews participate this uh demonstration somehow out of the blue there comes that American police goes every year to Israel to learn how to treat black people it's called deathly encounter was uh well by the way I checked really every year there is a delegation of American police in Israel on their request like 15 years ago they're coming to learn how to fight terrorism because for good and for bad Israel has unbelievable experience and that's all so it has nothing to do with this nevertheless those of you who are connected to campuses in America probably know how Des County became a very popular thing it makes many Jews who were active in this demonstrations feel embarrassed feel distant from Israel so that's typical demonization of today so I was saying that if we see demonization we have to know that it goes straight from classical anti and another these for the legitimization well those who know the Christian Theory know that there was replacement Theory which started really I don't remember austino like fifth century or some so very the moment uh Christian Church became uh Victorious it became the official one there was replacement of Jews are suffering because they didn't disappear they had to accept Christianity so Paul told them accept Christianity they didn't and so now they are not legitimate religion and of course it continued almost to more than times then there was the period when it they when it became a nation it was denied Nation well Stalin had the whole article that Jews are not a nation and there is a lot about it how no Germans didn't deny the Nazis to the contrary they were saying that it's in fur INF Furia uh no no no that it's it's under Nation it's less than Nation yeah inferior yeah uh so if you look uh on Israel well just now we heard how Israel doesn't have the right to be the me of United Nations that Israel is the only nation that there is question which is raised all the time whether it has the right to exist look at the last report of Amnesty International it doesn't say like so clearly but it speaks about a parit and it recognizes that it's not really a parit but we believe that this phenomena can be called aart because all it's demonization we don't have to deny and so the question said whether it was so from the very beginning and so whether it was legitimate whether the Zionism was legitimate so it's in a very sophisticated way you have really to read it very carefully in know to understand that in fact that is the way of delegitimizing the idea of Z is well today with Progressive Movement is very simple it's racist super right Supremacy yeah I always have difficulty with uh this world uh Colonial uh uh sett Theory which has no right to exist uh but that's direct continuation of the legitimization and then double standard that's the most broad phenomena in Jewish history we were judged by double standard we were the only who we expelled and expelled practically every country in Europe or every count in Germany has its own history how for 50 years were only Jews were expelled then they were permitted they and of course I have at home the uh law of uh 300 years of Roman Charles Romans Romanov there are more than 900 laws where there is different standard for Jews Jews have to pay different taxes they have different rights uh to live they have different restrictions on getting education so so and it's it's a law uh well Soviet Union wasn't the law but everybody knew if it is written in the your ID Jew you're judged by very different standards when you go and to work and to study uh and if you look at Israel on this double standard uh you know once I went to to Geneva to human rights committee like 18 years what was the name the the head of it was very very resp uh respectable uh person she was uh uh leading uh law lawyer in Canada what's his name yeah Louis Harvard yeah and and really I thought about her great things and I really appreciate but I don't her look as a lawyer as a judge as a outstanding human rights specialist don't you feel uncomfortable that you're the head of the committee where there is only one topic permanent they are coming and going different but one per just at the time when there is war in ch that time it was of war and darur and many other well not speaking about China and so and that is the only question so and she said you are absolutely right listen but what can I do I'm not the one who is defining and there is agreement between Russia and Arab countries the CH is not brought and darur is not brought there there is agreement this and she gave me the map of agreements between different countries not to bring practically any serious conflict and about Israel there is no agreement and I said even if it is very logical you know I read the conference not press conference not press conversation between the minister of Education of Russian s in 1916 the time of war with the group of the most distinguished Jews who came that they will make huge donation to Russian army huge unbelievable more than the capital of Russia but they asked for this to cancel restrictions on Jews and he was explaining in a very logical way by the way why he cannot do it in the of Russian people and I said but it doesn't mean anything different that there is double standard for Jews and non Jews but you explaining is very logical but it means that for Israel it's another standard if the only country that they can can agree to bring it to the agenda it means that uh Israel is judged by very different standard and of course uh we uh have a lot of uh examples over this until this day uh uh very tragic and sad story Shireen Abu Al you know just recently months ago two months ago uh Al jazer correspondent in Israel was killed in the crossfire and you have to understand that in the last time 12 Israeli citizens were killed by terrorists who came in the centers of four different cities and start shooting and this terrorist well they then they were all killed but in the meantime there was investigation all those who sent them Vine and after our intelligence found out they went to arrest them at this time there was cross fighting and uh Al jaer journalist was killed where in this cross fighting and Israel in the end is Accused in deliberately killing and you know how many journalists were killed in the last 30 years until 2,658 including recently Fox journalist in Ukraine and the whole day fool was speaking about it one day about all the others even less there was no investigations here all the leading New York Times and Washington Post organizing special investigation then Secretary of State blink says yes we have no choice we'll have to make investigation uh and Atlantic magazine and uh are comparing it with the killing of kogi and Danielle Pearl I don't have to remind you how was killed Danielle Pearl in the front of the camera and then his body cut in 10 pieces and how kogi was killed in uh in to's Embassy and uh and liberal leading liberal uh journalists are doing it and if you look at the fight of this two 2,658 by the way it's m laen got all this information not me so it's it's clear it's different standard that was the idea of my yeah and uh I have to say that there some some je organizations like Hilo y immediately adopted it but there was a lot of also criticism that it's really restricting our freedom of speech and then debate continued and then 10 years later IH IH a international Holocaust re Alliance yeah they passed definition it's interesting that even a holocaust organization really then made the consensus where there is definition of anti-semitism and then they didn't want to go into all this debate they said and here are typical examples when criticism of Israel becomes anti-semitic if you look at these examples they all about legitimization demonization and double standard and they write about it very clearly good we have uh International um definition uh the other organizations that I'm connected uh combat anti it's not organization movement they every two weeks they report about another group which got this uh definition it's good or some state in the United States President Trump accepted it then of course it was criticized but then President Biden accepted it and it was already greeted so everything goes good there is permanent attacks on the well there was another definition that invented it's called Jerusalem declaration though it was all on Zoom but very clar calls J if you see what is the difference the difference is attempt to take Zionism out of it h and really funny example uh one day uh the one who was responsible for an Trump oftion clar clar huh Elan CL yeah uh he calls me we speaking on different topics and he says me with exite excitement yesterday we signed agreement with Bahrain that we will fight together or we are both committed to fight anti-Semitism on the base of international definition and I meet a few days after this delegation from Bahrain in Israel and I asked them what you understand that on the base of international definition means that you have to fight against anti-sm they said of course we understand if you are going now to build uh different life uh Middle East why should we be interested that somebody will be delegitimized in Israel at that very day that I spoke to Elan car I received information from my friend from San Francisco that Central Jewish organization San Francisco decided they cannot support uh the this definition because it restricts the freedom of speech understand this AB the fear that it restrict the the freedom of speech is uh very big and in fact if you think to the contrary it really gives you opportunity to criticize Israel without being being afraid to be accused in antism I did such an experiment with my students in shalam said well some of them of course have a lot of criticism I say try to express what you just now said about Israel without demonizing Israel and without legitimizing without denying right to exist and trying to put the same standards which will put to America or to Syria when you're criticizing and you know everybody could do it and it's so good and then you're not accusing anti-Semitism with all your criticism so it's such a hypocrisy to say that that's what restricts the uh the freedom of speech now if you go to the today's world it's even more difficult why because uh as I said the beginning anti-Semitism growing on both sides and polarization on both is awful and the right doesn't speak to the left and when we see Jews will not replace us you remember where it was yeah was Jews will not replace us they of course they will not speak with those who speak say the Jews uh are those who brought slaves to America and you think it's almost the same slogan yeah but that is Extreme right and that's extreme left and those are say that slavery existed because of Jew they merchants and they are saying the Jews are those who are now bringing all these Mexicans here and depriving us jobs and these are on the far left well not far left but that's black lives metal left part of black lives matter and these are on the far right yeah uh and that's big problem because they will not talk to one another they saying uh the same thing well in general I have to say a few words about Progressive movements if you take uh critical race Theory and replace the race the world class you'll get pure Marxism lers which we started in Soviet simply reading the text uh the world is divided privileged and unprivileged privileged are always wrong uh unprivileged are always right you should not permit to unprivileged speak because it insults political non-correct it insults uh those who are suffering and that's that's exactly the world in which I grew on the were capitalists and proletarian and in this world when in this world Israel becomes privileged and Jews become privileged and Palestinians are privilege there is nothing to talk about you you you you cannot be right so uh and that's why all this uh BS and uh deadly encounter it's and on one hand and these uh Jews will not replace us let's again suddenly you see how Jews are at the same time internal enemy and external enemy so we are going back to uh Soviet times and uh now as I said there is no no difference between Jews will not replace us and Jews are responsible slavery I'll give you uh almost S sim appeared almost simultaneously in the press and you'll tell me who's left and who's right there was a joke on Twitter about what is the difference between Jews and pizza pizza goes out of oven at the same time one politician young politician was greeted with the shout fire up the oven yeah so the first one is BS supporter the the other one is new Nazi and then they're saying the same you see now another that what what Photoshop uh uh where Jewish journalist is putting Nazi uniform and there is and there was mock album of sing Adele called the Adolf Hitler again the one is all right supporter of trump and the other is students for justice in Palestine and you see they doing absolutely the same thing they are comparing Jews with Nazis so there there's uh really no difference and one goes to the other you know like few weeks ago BDS Boston publish mapping what is mapping they say they publish document uh Zionist politics and uh uh the propose I don't remember but they put a map and all you have to know your enemies Zion you have to know your Z enemies and there on this map there are Jewish Federation of Boston and there are Jewish schools and there are Jewish hospitals so uh and J Street is there so it's like KGB you see we have so many different Jewish groups who we fighting with one another in my case in KGB they all on one list so you speak and Design but you mean in fact anti-jewish you putting everybody there so when if it is so similar it must be very easy to attack both of them look at the I think it was second debate between Biden and Trump and uh the uh moderator Wallace I think from Fox I think he asked them to condemn racism anti and Trump said it all comes from the left and Biden said it all comes from the right and they were like proud boys and uh antifa yeah and both sides were ready to criticize the other nobody was Trump was push so proud boys what you can say to Proud boys Jonas was pushing him and he said proud boys stand aside that's that was Max Maxim he was R to said and Biden said antifa it own idea what you talking about all the racism is from the right so if it is the leaders are not politicians are not ready to criticize anti-Semitism in their camp and racism so on the lower level I saw it all the time for practically for every comparison which I made between left and right I heard immediately on the left I heard how you can just compare us with those uh Killers who go in Pittsburgh other place and are killing people and what the left is killing people and those on the right are saying how you can compare these lonely wolves who are there nobody support them and BDS movement and all thisiz there is all the money is there so so instead of being so uh Angry it's so easy to to agree that after all uh we have the same enemy the same not enemy the same Prejudice in different camps let's let's fight them together and it's not happening it's it's dividing Jewish world is dividing political world everybody is ready to fight antisemitism in the camp of our opponents and as you understand it gives nothing why should supporters of trump be concerned that uh Biden supporters are criticizing them and why vice versa so the idea is to attack in on all the fronts and that's why it is so important this seminar where we are really trying Charles and col over to Charles he's doing it for many years already uh and by the way I agreed to be the chairman of isab when I came first to such seminar and I saw how important it is that we have to see all the phes of anti-Semitism and then we have to bring it into Academia if you cannot bring it to our presidents at least in Academia that students will hear and understand thank you I know there's going to be thank you very much I'll start off with a quick question yeah so when the when there's the struggle to free Soviet jury it really galvanized the Jewish community in the world in North America the Americas Europe Israel everybody was I guess United fighting for the freedom of Soviet Jews and we helped to fight the anti-Semitism in the former Soviet Union and there's an irony you know one every generation they rise up against the Jewish people and now we fast forward to generation and you and other people who were in the former Soviet Union are now helping us to fight anti-Semitism in the west which is you know in a very short period of History things seem to be flipping and when you spoke and and and and I won't go into all the details but it also resonated that when you spoke to the people in Bahrain the delegation bin and he spoke about you know they signed the IRA definition and you asked them are you going to also fight anti Zionism and they said of course um and I think the region is becoming more aware of anti-Semitism and anti-zionism which is refreshing um but at the same time the Jewish community in San Francisco condemned uh Israel and distanced themselves from connecting anti-Semitism with anism in the former Soviet Union when the regime was putting a lot of pressure on the Jewish people the community was fractured to some extent some Jewish people um wanted wanted to assimilate into Soviet society and to have a calmer life and there were people fighting for Jewish rights but there were people that were assimilated into the Soviet culture do you see any connection now in the west and particularly in the United States with massive levels of assimilation and Ben gave an amazing presentation on the internalization of anti-Semitism and the lack of Pride that the Jewish Community has in the west do you do you see uh the fracturing of American Jury in a similar way and it's a strong statement to make that was happening in the Soviet Union no okay well there are so many questions side I have to give another lecture but in general I I know with all my criticism Happ in America it's happening in the free country and it's people are having the free choice between left or right uh uh and uh they there are many illusions of course uh but uh it's their free choice in Soviet Union I already lived under the fear by way said I compared progressiv and Marxism nobody in my days really believe in Marxist the because it brought to killing of so many people and it was imposed on people Progressive theories are not imposed on people they they want to believe like probably in the first years of Marxism on the first bolik so I lived at the time when nobody really believed in this ideology but everybody was scared and Afraid and with all our divisions our our fear was United uh one and we had many different Jewish organizations in America split between themselves who didn't trust to one another who felt that the other is betraying the cause but they all United in the idea that saving Soviet jury is more important than our divisions and K was proving it by putting all of them on one list uh today the and that the problem that anti-Semitism always was uniting us today antii because of having these two phes anti-Semitism and anti Zionism is dividing us because people believe that they the winning of their political Camp is more important then we will deal when our camp wins there will be no antii that's that's people believe and that makes it much more difficult that short answer there are many others inside I hope we I hope we have the opportunity to have a conversation because I'll tell you one thing we we we gave a lecture on Edward s's notion of replacement Theory and he said that he was the last remaining Jewish intellectual and that s and that the Jewish intellectuals are in the suburbs of America getting fat getting fat one minute and what hsky was not a Jewish intellectual for him no no I know but I just to finish the point just just to finish the point of replacement Theory because I this is very important and I think it's important to what we're doing here is that he then went on to say that the Jews are the Nazis and the Palestinians are the Jews yeah and this is the ideology that is being imposed on students and faculty this is the religion of Academia and I actually think like the Soviet Union to an extent to to to an extent that this ideology is being imposed on Jewish faculty and Jewish students and if you don't follow the religion it's a problem so anyway no that's a problem it's another problem yeah Ben Ben hi Mr shy so I quote your article the unjus in my new book about internalized anti- jewishness and in my work I offer my own solutions to this specific problem wondering how you think we actively combat it this idea of the unjus well uh for those who don't know uh Gil and Troy and myself wrote a book where we are trying to present the uh tent of those who are part of the people as broad as possible and dialog between Israel and diaspora we really need all the parts of Israel site and all the parts of diaspora side and then we wrote after this letters of specialist in Israel studies in the univers in the future uh non-orthodox rabis who wrote that Zionism is in fact this colonial ideology and we have nothing to do and we don't want so he said that those who don't want to recognize the second part of the of course they're not part of the tent because they're not they you cannot say that they are non-jews because they are very important Jews but and then we give analogy the Soviet Union so on so uh we need some line we think was we for very broad thing but only those who want to be part of the dialogue those who declare that Z is illegitimate and I want to build my identity without them that's I I was who saying we now have to build our American Jewish identity without Israel for thousand years we did it without Israel why not today so of course they not part of the dialogue with Israel but how how do we combat it because as Charles has said this is being this is a religion and it's being well I tell you those who want who want to build be Absolut independent they will be but as they always say their grandchildren will not be Jewish that's what we have so if it is important for them they should attempt to build today identity without Israel at all uh well that was what py Jew discovered what is birth rights two py Jews discovered that they cannot keep their Jew kids Jewish if they are not bringing them to Israel pleas for take that's how all this happen so but if person says I really don't care I'm not part of this socaled Jewish civilization then conf here simply goes the other way and he's not part of the tent but because in fact many of these people are doing it without thinking and they do care they want to stay in the tent that's how you challenge it but look after all I the old guy you young I always said to jewi agency we cannot influence only you can because it's people of your age so you have to tell me how to influence okay thank you AV and then AV um I want to tell you a story okay personal story I was a I I was born in Argentina like a young leader the uh we we um we went to a some manifestations to uh support the the the ref refus so people go uh at all we were the we we were not allowed to go to manifestations because there was a military but because it was against the Soviet Union we was allowed to to do so I really grew up about your story your St um and it it was very very strong for my identity I I think for all the the the Jewish uh young people and I want to ask you um if you don't think that now young Jewish people need a symbol to to in to increase their their identity and I want to tell you another thing you have the best present that a man can have okay it's a I told her a few minutes ago she was and she is my personal hero all right because okay what is the question between Zionism and love and identity is the best thing you can high I agree with you fully what is the question I asked I asked you about a symbol the needed of the symbol ah uh well uh look uh again symbols modern symbols have to be created by younger people but I I I really believe that that's big way uh uh uh mistake somehow of Jewish people of America and others that they forgot not forgot they ignored their own biggest success in the modern history after all the fact that two million Jews left Soviet Union and more than 1 million lives in Israel and 600,000 or 500,000 in America and other places that was huge victory of the world jeury and I'm always asking when people come to me and say well can you tell to our grandchildren the story I say but do your gr know your story you were the one who was Maring and you were coming to to Moscow and was uh hiding in your under the documents our letter to S Jackson so and your grandchildren know nothing about it so I I do believe when in Jewish schools they are looking hardly for the heroes and they go to maim and the King David and Ne I don't know and don't speak about their own story it's it's a b so yes these symbols are somehow uh lost and but uh look if you really want to excite young people you have to uh find symbols in today's life and I'm not even using Twitter so I cannot thank you Amy I'd like to um Echo 's comments and say that never alone provide me with insight into how it is that you arrived at thinking of the of the world with such Clarity okay um you commented in that work that you've these are your words that you've lived life backwards yeah and in living life backwards and for those who' have not read it gives the example of having been circumcised much later in life not having a bar mitzvah until 65 these are living life backwards examples and going first to prison and then to politics that's my question for you is that in living life backwards in an age that I find so regressive if you could provide us Insight if you dare into the future aside from saying that things will get worse because the clarity that you offer provides do I think insights in how to fight that um you specifically also mentioned how you've changed your perspective over time and I'm wondering if there's one big shift in your Consciousness that you would like to share with us about how we might sh sh shift our own perspectives about what's in front of us right now well uh I believe that my most important Insight which only was becoming more more strong with time is that uh people have two basic very deep desires desire to be independent but that nobody will tell me what to think my daughter in the age of for you will not tell me what to do and uh that that's very normal for the feeling of the people that they want to have independent thinking and so freedom is fre of is very important and the second one is desire to belong to something bigger than you which is almost opposite desires to be individual and to belong and the problem that in the world that we lived and the specially Today We Live they these two desires are turning us apart really can see this all postmodernism in Europe and now and on this other hand this dictatorship in this the world and uh and all extreme nationalism which is fighting against desire people to be free or to the contrary extreme Freedom Without Borders and uh uh uh to live the life where there is nothing to die for so the full life the really feeling that you have full life is only when these two things are connected together and that's what I discovered and became uh activist of Zionist human rights movement and that's what I see as the biggest challenge in modern world today that instead of bringing to people the fullness of Life by coming together it goes aart and that's why Suddenly It's looks like regress that the future is you know in America many polls uh not polls studies show that people feel that today is better than tomorrow yeah if you look in Israel like 70% say that in America that today is uh better than tomorrow in Israel 70% say that tomorrow will be better than today and you know why because Israel with all is Jewish Democratic State they working very hard to be part of the the Free World to be Jewish State and some European leaders are saying only because you inas to be Jewish that's why we have all the problems and on the other hand they part of Middle East we have no choice we and we insist to be Democratic state but of course is against tradition and but that's what gives this feeling of fullness of life and that's why Israel people not only Jews but Arabs are so optimistic that's why by the they bringing more children to the world that any free society today they want it's very closely connected to this optimism and I believe the reason for this optimism is that somehow in spite of all the difficulties we're trying to keep these to deep desires together while unfortunately the world continues to look how to sacrifice one for the sake of the other okay thank you Tyrone and then Gabby okay um um short question but I want to give you some examples my context to for clarity um the black community and black intelligencia have typically produced a few explanations for racism against black people we can talk about religiously you know white people are the devil there's demonic spirits that's religiously like from an anthropological standpoint we can point to like uh chick an uh two cradle Theory yeah um dividing the Southern and Northern Hemisphere Northern people come from more norn areas where hunters and gatherers and they're not used to sharing and so there's power differentials and all that different stuff and I can even talk about stuff like in America that has different re Bacon's Rebellion Financial economic stuff whatever can you since you've been doing this for so long and you've seen so much um is there any insight you have for the such widespread of anti-Semitism maybe that's a very yeah complicated or I don't know but just want to see uh well I don't know but uh I tell you what I do know okay uh Martin Luther King I believe I think uh was one of the most outstanding amazing leaders of black people uh bringing them to Freedom uh to to equality today when there was written the uh the course for study in California Martin Luther King Reas by by there were many black people involved in this Martin Luther King was not there uh uh malcol X was there and uh of course black lives matter was there and so on and even black panthers were there but why because Martin Luther King wanted to make black people part of the society uh this demanding from the society to to accept them as their equal part today's theories are how to destroy the society because it's the Society of oppressors know in Soviet Union this first gimon International was we will destroy all this world to the end and then we will bring our new world and I feel that it's like the same philosophy today and that's why Martin Luther King from the real hero and the leader and moral voice and believe I I didn't meet him he was killed before I was released but I did meet many Jews who were working for him his lawyers his who were with him in this busing in Atlanta and so uh and they were tell first of all they themselves how admired and how proud they were to be part of it and how this person was fighting to change his country in order to become equal in this country country so the fact that today and it's also part of this Marxist philosophy that the idea is how we make this country political non-correct as as a country and that's why we need that Jefferson is and everybody is uh bad and I think it's makes major disservice to black people because from the beginning they instead of thinking how to use the power of America they think how to deprive America of its power and uh why it is becoming so popular well maybe because you don't have don't have such great leaders like Martin Luther King I don't know I I'm not enough inside to know I can judge only from what from outside what's really happening so we're running out of time so no but this girl Noah was was praying for begging I I she's on the list she I'm trying Excuse excuse me I'm trying to integrate some people who haven't been able to yeah I come all the time he he's a bad guy so we have we have a few minutes so Gabby then Asher then Romy then Noah Mr sh kak it's an honor thank you uh so much growing up in the US uh my family supported you very much and scoop Jackson and cl moan as a child too I thought scoop Jackson was Jewish so you also but anyway um more recently you wrote an article just about two years ago in Newsweek um three warning signs of ideological totalitarianism I'm wondering how it relates to to your talk today to our subject today of anti-Semitism there you you outlined the problem of guilt by association um you're either with us or against us um secondly Truth by association rejection of of dialogue so that we fail the Town Square test can everyone Express themselves freely without uh fear of punishment and third and maybe most important uh these days double think what I I would call um Thinking by disassociation splitting thought and and and speaking or what we call self-censorship uh which goes on in you know the university among other places we have our operatics there uh too from administrators to colleagues even to students who all work together to to create an environment in in which um any dissent from political correctness or werness call it what you want cultural Marxism you know is is is um really dangerous and and people sort of tend to um decide it's not worth it after a while can you connect your your um thoughts about totalitarianism these days uh to our problem of of anti-Semitism or or maybe even just say a bit more about this other topic that you okay look uh on this topic and I mentioned it a little bit my Progressive uh critical theories remind me of Marxism uh but uh I add one more point it's double think yeah uh and I wrote another article by the way about double think in the Soviet Union first of all I'm not comparing totalitarian regime with the democracy America is very deeply developed democracy and I don't think that any attempts to remove linoln or Martin Luther King from the history will not help in the end uh but just because it is so it is so important that for the Free World that America will be the society through believing in human rights and defending human rights that's why even small signs are uh alarming and one of these signs I really see that people start being afraid to express their views and that was the mo the the daily life in Soviet Union and they wrote a lot about it how it was the daily life how from the age of five was started double think I will not go into it but the fact that in America more and more people and there are uh studies which show that more than half of Americans prefer not to say openly what they think of whom they voted in public I believe that's very alarming sign for for americ I can say I will not say exactly the group but I'm speaking to the group of Jewish people and I'm asking if they have the problem of uh uh not speaking open on the University and the they no really we don't have then after the meeting is finished some people came to me and said that their grandfather is from the Soviet Union and that and he's really uh said that it's very alarming what's happening it reminds him so and as a result he and his son his father probably voted for Trump I said and are you talking about it he said no this group I will never say in this group that just now spoke how freely they C feel I will never say it publicly because it will change all the life of my family for much worse in my community so uh that's simple example but that's what's happening everywhere and I think if you are against Trump you should make sure that people who voted for Trump will not feel any need to to not to speak publicly and and VI of course and the Very fact that I don't remember that when American Jews were coming to us in Moscow it was the that they had any problem to to speak about their views even if they these views were very much against the mainstream so it's I think it's relatively new phenomenon and especially in the academy that there are so many young people who prefer not to express their views in the academy and there are more so many more and more professors who are not invited or disinvited from the uh because their views are uncorrect I think it's very alarming s okay thanks so I very concise yeah to and this you talk about freedom of speech I'm interested in asking about academic freedom of speech there might be overlap if that there's any redundancy that we can totally move on um but thank you so much for being here it's absolutely unbelievable to meet authors in person it's always unbelievable experience um so I go to UNC Chapel Hill North Carolina college um and there's this instant where an anti scientist Professor um was teaching a class and uh he really government got involved I don't know if you heard about it they Minister over it was a whole H little controversy um but anyway my professors supported um this as uh as a pillar of freedom of speech this person was finally speaking out against Israel um at the same time obviously that that sounds to me like the because of the academic taboo uh to be Zionist um you know be the opposite of freedom of speech to some extent so I wanted to ask about the state of academic freedom of speech in the academy especially because we know that that Zionism ex me Nazism was kind of a product of you know academic thoughts so I wanted to to ask you through thoughts on that well but I I think I already I said uh look it started I think uh I I discovered it when in brand Brandy University they cancelled they were going to give like honor Professor I think to to I they and uh and then knew first but she was in Europe in the underground being afraid uh that she will be killed so I really I asked the leader I am also honorary doctor of BR University and they explained me that uh they afraid that it will have very uh it will be felt very negative and there will will be demonstrations and the university can lose the a lot of their support and so that was it was probably 15 years ago first I and I was really surprised because after all it br's universi uh but then it became like normal and there are more and more and more people who are dis invited to speak and there are as a result well there are more and more students who decide not to speak publicly of their views so I I personally believe it's one of the most alarming things which is happening in America even more alarming than some extreme of black lives matter because that's really the heart of of America that's from where all the future political leaders are coming and so that's very dangerous I'm going to collect two questions so very briefly Noah and then R thank you so much um last time when we met in Jerusalem a lot about uh Jewish identity and our and I would like to use this opportunity to ask you please something a bit more practical what is the role of non-jewish actors in the Jewish fight against anti-Semitism I mean because historically of course s the alliance of non-jewish actors because they were the only one who were listened to and Jews in own agency were not but you are of course as best and democracy but if I remember correctly you together with Avital have collaborated and gained the support of the western world before and after 86 so what I wanted to ask you is how do we work with a big wide world how do we explain to them what to us is obvious what we take for granted about about the mutating elements of Timeless antisemitism and do we approach them with rationality and facts or do we need to seek their sympathy I hope this question is clear thank you uh well it's all always to have sympathy and for this you have to to explain uh the Thousand Years of history but in the end it's personal interest and I believe and that's was Charles was quoting uh El all the time that it starts with Jews and never finishes with the Jews and uh uh Jews were so many times in history the canary meaning the the first who Wars about uh future problems and uh that's the main reason why uh non-jewish world has uh to be concerned what it really means for the society what where it will take and uh the fact that some elements of black lives mattera are anti-semitic maybe that has to concern uh Jews but as a result where they are taking American society that has to be to be of concern for American society that I think without thinking together with them how dangerous it is for the society in general it will be very difficult uh to get their support but I have to say I really am proud to on the very early stage the all struggled to build some bridges like father dran was a great Catholic me member of Congress then Pope didn't permit him to continue in politics so he was very active in Catholic and he came to us to MOS and we became very friendly and it was so clear for him uh how dangerous it is for the world that Soviet Union is anti-Semitic that's the best sign of uh totalitarian threat of Soviet Union uh to the best so I believe that must be mutual interest yeah thanks I want I want to make I want to ask I'm going to intervene before how do you see black lives matter because in a sense I'm going to push back a little bit there was sort of an organic outrage of racism in the United States and police brutality that I think cut across the United stat the African-American Community or communities and The Wider Society especially among young people and there was there were outrage and I think that was something organic and yet there is an official black lives matter organization that was actually working with the Nation of Islam and sort of using Israel and Jewish people as a scapegoat but I I perceive that as a I know an extreme element of an organic movement that swept the United States how how do you see black lives matter as a is it a social movement is it does it represent the extreme left and the you know the Nation of Islam or you know there I see there's a lot of good people fighting for justice uh look again it's I'm not an expert in this I never said with the leaders of black W and argued with them though I think we argued through the press a lot uh no I have no doubt that among black lives mattera there is probably a lot of good people who are very angry when what's happening exactly there are many very good Jews whom I know personally who felt themselves obliged to go and particip in the uh demonstration of black Liv matter but at the same time it's enough to compare what such thing as George Floyd what Martin Luther King would have be doing and how what the his reaction on on segregation the buses and how he was doing and how his quite brought to the Civil act what is in 1964 uh and what is the leaders of black lives meta doing with the death of George Floyd in order to understand and and as a result they came to this uh deathly encounter series and all the other series which are bringing a lot of hatred against America and uh that is the difference Al as a footnote I remember also during the time of uh the murder of George Floyd isap with you and I and Dennis signed a letter we actually closed for two days as a former protest against what was happening so isab actually closed its offices for few days with with okay Romey very we're over time so very very quick uh hannahan it's a real honor to listen to you today um I wanted to ask you more about the situation in Russia and that and and Ukraine I know it's a sensitive issue but you know with Sergey lab calling like zinski and ukrainians Nazis and also the situation for Russian jury today the issue with the Jewish agency in that um well look that's the whole big topic I want to tell it's very difficult for Jews to believe that there can be a major conflict and it's not about Jews and but I have to say uh the attempts to accuse Ukraine in anti-Semitism absolute nonsense but also the attempts to accuse Putin and antisemitism is also nonsense it's about Putin who decided that he's big enough and great enough to continue the line from Peter the Great to Stalin and to restore Soviet Empire uh and as a result the less it's absolutely barbaric aggression against Ukraine but no doubt by the way at the same time it's a lot of repression inside the country in few months Russia went back practically in every respect to Old Soviet Union freedom of speech freedom of organization so on except from one freedom of immigration it still exists but and no doubt Society will become more anti-semitic because it's much less liberal and Democratic and it so it will come but it started and the sful war is not because of Jews it's very difficult to accept so on that note um so on behalf of everybody here at Lon thank you for all your [Applause]

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Length: 86min 48sec (5208 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 19 2024