The New Jewish State Law and Israel’s Future

good evening all it's really a pleasure to have you I understand the elements that you had to pass through in order to get here so we give you high grades for your courage I'm very grateful for our panelists this evening which I believe will be an amazing and wonderfully fruitful and robust conversation I also at this point also want to thank Jamil Simon for having brought so many of you and robbery rabbi Deborah Hirsch and Fred Bosch who both of whom I've known for a long time so I think you all received a copy of the nation state law when you entered so we gave it to you in English so that it should be more palpable and accessible to you but I'd like to begin by asking our panelists what they believe was the reason that motivated the passage of this law and other implications in it that at the very beginning you would like to recognize and why don't we start with you Eugene so many people ask why was this law passed now what's the reason for it and it's important to have some context the law was passed now but it was started a long time ago it happened to clear the threshold Parliament airily this year but it was first actually introduced over eight years ago in the government of under the pub in the party of the Tzipi Livni remember dicta introduced it from the Kadima party this was not originally a Netanyahu or right-wing proposal and the reason for is Israel has a very strange Constitution it's a constitution that's not a constitution and it's a constitution in pieces everything that a constitution deals with the courts the army separation of powers of legislature is passed in separate basic laws one at a time over the span of many decades there was never one Constitution that was written and many of the first all the things that the Constitution would typically deal with human rights separation of powers has already been registered in the 1990s past a basic law that deals with human rights the human dignity law but Israel never passed and never had a measure that deals with the national character of the state - Americans Canadians also this might seem strange why do you need a national character provision America does not have one Canada does not have one but such provisions are in fact not uncommon most European countries have some kind of communal character provision either one that creates a national religion Israel doesn't have that or a monarchy Israel doesn't have that or one that proclaims a national nation-state identity for the state as many Central and Eastern European countries have and official languages this is a normal constitutional provision almost all countries have an official language almost no countries have more than one official language even countries with minorities and substantial minorities so these basic aspects things that are found in many constitutions Israel never had and finally after 70 years it got around to it so I think the question isn't why now or what's the need but what took so long well and we have an answer to that it's Jewish things do is take a long time Saeed what about you what is your sense of why past now and for you what are some of the implications to use what it would take a small time I know first of all I was I'm just a writer yes I'm not in law I don't understand much about law so so so so I will be talking from my personal experience I would say that the law was it's it's a process of a lot of laws actually the law the Nakba law or the law of the committee is the law that forbidding Palestinians from marrying or unifying Palestinian families I would say that they were several external and probably also internal reasons for the law the externals we can I can I can mention the the demand of Binyamin Netanyahu the Prime Minister yes of Israel if you don't know that of the recognition he was demanding the recognition of the Palestinian of the Jewish state Israel as a Jewish state and the Palestinians of course we might recognize the the authority or serenity of the of Israel but about its identity it's not our goal or it's not our our mission - up to - to recognize the character of Israel as Jewish or not of course because of several implications for that so that would be probably the major one and also some UN and some and some international efforts from the Palestinians those might might be reasons for that and the internal ones and I guess that would be more powerful I think for political reasons there were some very really great movements in Israel human rights movements and and and NGOs asking for equality and probably someone in Israel thought that it's a little bit to ask for equality and to petition to the Supreme Court based on the on the Equality that was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence might threaten the the superiority of the Jewish people in Israel so probably that was that was one of the reasons that they wanted to pass that law and so that's important thing I welcome back to some of the implications for you too but not so one of the things that tends to confuse a lot about the law is people think of it and even we saw recently with a member of Congress think of it as the Jewish state law even though that phrase appears nowhere and over time I realized that the Jewish issue tends to confuse people because the law actually says nothing about what it means to be Jewish how to be Jewish how to join how to become a member of the Jewish people who is a Jew what does it mean to be Jewish the law says nothing about it the law merely talks about the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their national in their homeland the Land of Israel and in that sense a better name for the law would be the Zionist bare-bones law because it is really defining the bare bones of Zionism which is that there will be one country in the world where the Jewish people will be able to exercise their self-determination and the law literally says nothing else now I was present at creation I was a member of Knesset as avi Dichter approached me one day we sit in the plenary and other Dolf speech and what members of Knesset do during such plenary they run around with law proposals I don't know if you know but in the Israeli Knesset every member of Knesset has dozens if not hundreds of law proposals to their names almost none of which get passed but they're kind of declarations so I'll be district comes to me he shows me the bill and I read it and I'm like duh I mean there's nothing here it's super obvious yes Israel reflects the national self-determination of the Jewish people the flag has the Star of David the national anthem is a tick rather official language is Hebrew I'm like why do we need this and he's like it's part of the Constitution and I'm like and you know what's also this friend the elements and look sure whatever I add my name to it there's nothing special in the law then all hell breaks loose and there is a you know we're all pads and the two racists law and I run back to read the law and I'm like what did I saw him that was so terrible and I read it like I'm not seeing it it's not there and this is really what's so confusing in the law that it's not in the law the law is bare-bones Zionism if you think that Zionism the universal right of the Jewish people to self-determination is a racist endeavor is about Jewish supremacism then the look then opposition to the law is not interesting because your PO Zionism the law reflects Zionism that's that's not interesting to me because your opposition to the universal right of the Jewish people to self-determination emerges from other reasons so it's not in the law there's nothing in the law that would explain the kind of defer and the controversy but side is right that it did emerge in a particular context where Netanyahu had just given the bar-ilan speech there was talk of moving towards rounds of negotiations and yet again the establishment of a Palestinian state now the whole idea was that with the possibility of finally reaching partition as the United Nations imagined between an Arab state and a Jewish state and notice Arab and Jewish two people's two groups two collectives not religions then in that context it makes sense to enshrine the very purpose of partition which is a Jewish state and an Arab state and indeed as Palestinians leader said you can define yourself however you want they're responsive Israelis such as differ was like okay so let's enshrine this as part of the process of negotiating peace so as to make it clear that the very purpose of negotiating peace the very purpose of dividing the land into two states is so that there is a Jewish state and an Arab state I'm obviously we're gonna come back to you know that issue in terms of do we really believe there's a two-state solution now so let's go up Peter what about you so I would agree that I think context really is is crucial here I think there were group of people in Israel who felt that the the balance the inherent balance or tension that exists in the idea of Zionism that exists in Israel's Declaration of Independence between a country that will provide representation and safety for Jews and a country that believes in liberal democratic enlightenment principles of equality that the pendulum had swung too far towards equality and and and that the Jewish side the Jewish rights needed to be reaffirmed I think that the the problem is you have to understand the context in which this bill comes right the context is that millions of Palestinians live in the West Bank as non-citizens under Israeli control under military law without free movement or due process or the right to vote for the government that controls their lives that the Palestinian citizens of Israel right inside the green line often called Arab Israelis live under a regime that is characterized by discrimination and neglect that's those are my words those are actually quoting from the or Commission commissioned by the Israeli government itself back in 2003 you have a very prominent cabinet minister and politician of vigor Lieberman talking about essentially forcibly removing Palestinians by and nesting their village pushing their villages outside of the State of Israel in it - in a two-state agreement you have Benjamin Netanyahu in 2015 running and warning the Israeli Jews that the Arabs are coming to vote in droves just today we saw Netanyahu again basically telling Israeli Jews you can't vote for Bennigan's he's too dangerous because the Arabs he's got this big image of an Arab member of Knesset and his ad might have a role in the next government so in this context right in which Israel Don Jewish and Palestinian citizens already believe that they are they live under discrimination right if the Israeli government is a set itself the question is is it wise for Israel to pass a law that reaffirms Israel's Jewish identity without saying anything as the Declaration of Independence does about the principles of equality it's well enough for for kind of you know Israeli or Americans used to say well the Palestinians don't have anything to worry about this law doesn't cause them any problems but what you saw was an over well Ming responds by Palestinian citizens of Israel in opposition to this bill general strikes mass protests and I would note not only by anti Zionist Palestinian Israelis but indeed by Druze who served in the military who themselves said we asked people who served in the military and and and are willing to fight for this state where they were protests in Tel Aviv with Druze former top Israeli military officials saying this is a betrayal of us because it doesn't talk about equality because it pushes that it gets that tension band balance all wrong and I think this is for me it's not only a question of justice is a question of security for the State of Israel right the imagine if there were an internal Intifada and Intifada inside the green line by Israel's Palestinian citizens imagine if they stopped voting stop serving in the Knesset stop serving on courts the integration the sense of feeling part of Israel of this 20% of the population is crucial to Israel own security and something that profoundly alienates them from a state they already feel marginal and I think is very dangerous so I want to come back to some of the things that have been mentioned I asked initially whether you would think of some implications of at least part of the statute right there are certain things there there are certain there are certain lists and certain conditions in there that have caused a special upset you know the issue of Arabic and you know the issue of settlements however it's framed you how do you respond to that I mean there there certainly is a change in the status of Arabic I think it's Russell Eugene addressed that because one of the key issue that really needs to be understood is how little is there in the law and because there's so little how much people project their own biases into that essentially almost blank slate but go ahead thank you so you can look at the law yourself it's true much is projected on it there is not a change in the status of Arabic and if there is change it's a change for the better the language of the law says the status quo of Arabic shall be preserved the status quo shall be preserved what was the status quo Israel had no legislation the Knesset had never passed a law dealing with the languages of the country most countries have laws if not constitutional provisions typically dealing with official languages Israel never had one there was a certain status quo that status quo is now stabilized and enshrined in the Constitution using the words status quo and you can go through this Constitution provision by provision say made a joke which was funny that the Arabs would have taken longer to get around to this in more than 70 years but that's actually not the case if you look at the Constitution of every Arab country if you look at the constitution of the state of Palestine which says it is an Arab country it is a Palestinian country Arabic is the official language Islam as the religion so maybe we don't want to use them as a model if you look at European constitutions if you cook constitutions around the world every provision is going to be found there so to say the provisions that are found in constitutions around the world nobody says they're racist when they're in the Palestinian Constitution and no one says they're racist when they're in the Spanish Constitution or in the Irish Constitution but when you put it in the Jewish Constitution it's racist that itself is an act of racism against the Jews the feelings of Israel's minorities must be taken into regard but the feelings of Israel's majority must be taken in regard because Israel is the only country in which the Jews are a majority the only country in which they can affect their national self-determination and if there are rights that people exercised around the world to a language to a flag to an anthem and it turns out Israel which is not the only country in the world with them with a minority is somehow barred from having that that's a real problem Sayid you did you want to respond I'm not sure because because I'm not sure about the test actually to response the same thing also to responding to the law of nationality I think that mixed mixing so much examples from so different countries and this connect in the history the historical fact of of Palestine Israel would be but just just demagogue thing in order to just to justify any an Israeli policy its it's not again I think that yes every Palestinian ever as well would say oh so what's big about what we know you're discriminated so what's the big thing about the law yes it is some somehow I would say that many of the Palestinians say yeah we knew that we are not accepted here as citizens but the lie I think here it's again it's yes it is making making some some de-facto realities to to to do right the jury which will limit yes after all yes it's how the court is going to to how courts in Israel and judges in Israel how going to use the law and in their decisions or but but when when we talk about the the Arabic language for of course again it's really it's it's really not clear why to declare that in the law if it's not downgrading the Arabic language it was a formal language since the mandate but now it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a special language in Israel why doing that if you are not intending to up to down grade the Arabic language we have also to remember that there are clang which is not only the language of the Palestinian citizens of Israel its language of 50 percent the original language of 50 percent and wonderful Jewish writing were written in Arabic during that the years why eliminate that why why Maximus roughly Jews feel that the not being connected to their to do to their culture in their language why make that and why also to declare and downgrade the Arabic language status even if it's if it's just official thing when you live in the Middle East Israel seeks peace with the Middle East and the countries and whatever but why declare that why what is that will will will will mean to Arab countries surrounding Israel even if it doesn't anything so why put it in a new law that it's now downgraded it was a formal language for any law 95 years since the mandate now it's less why why to give that if you just don't want to this hierarchy who's enrolled here is inferior and who's superior in that country just like in making it making it sure yes of course probably and the daily life nothing would matter Arabs were not welcomed in most vehement kibbutzim and and any other places although they are trying to live in our fula and let's rattle eaten per meal and they are not welcome there is the law of committees but now we are telling you that not true you are not welcome if you were thinking those of you who were thinking about multicultural by the way so forget about it to think about different languages different cultures United in the State of Israel and not only for the Palestinians from the Mizrahi Jews for The Heretic Jews you can forget about that multicultural Democratic multicultural society in Israel so why do that and of course there are in the law yes there's some scary things what is Israel who is little that only the only people yes which is to except to exercise their nationality are the Jewish people what are the borders of Israel as Peter mentioned here is it including Palestine and Gaza what is the implication of the what's the meaning of the law when we have powerful nails ironist behind also behind this law of course the nationality calling to impose the Israeli law into the West Bank not maybe not Gaza but in the West Bank what does that mean about coalesced in Ian's and the West Bank about their national identity isn't the fact okay oh you have your individual rights isn't the fact that if you are Jewish you have this collective right to identify with the State of Israel as a Jewish state isn't it doesn't that make you a superior and not equal citizen and and is there any even the name Israel of course it's very Jewish is there any place for a civil society that people can identify with the State of Israel with its flag with its anthem its symbols and of course symbols that they have they have a lot of power and meanings but what is the part of a civil society here it is something that says to the Arabs you you are less and you won't want you to believe that and know that you are less it's it's not it's not a law that it's it's drinking or or it's not the law of is what is Israel illness no it's about about to be Israeli meaning to be Jewish no I I think I feel like in a way the proponents of the law trying to have it both ways right on the one hand you say well this is just about Jewish self-determination and eugen talks about the the state of Palestine has its own character right as a you know in its constitution about about Islam at about Arabic etcetera but the whole point of course is that there is no State of Palestine right and that Israel does not have defined borders right so it's one thing to say we're going to define and say that that we're going to pass a while now about Jewish self-determination when Palestinians also have just heard self-determination right but remember Israel is not defined its borders right and the vast majority of people pushing this bill do not ever want to see a Palestinian state exist right there were some centrists who supported this bill who might have been to status they almost all including some Druze actually they all jumped off it when they when it when it became clear that it was not going to have any reference to equality to it so the vast majority of people pushing this bill are people from the could and to the right people vehemently opposed to any existence of Palestinian national self-determination and and people who don't who believe that the borders of Israel should essentially run from the river to the sea that's important to understand when you see in the bill phrases like the right to exercise jewett national self-determination in the State of Israel is uniquely that of the Jewish people so one thing if you're saying that inside the green line it's another thing if that's being pushed by a whole series of politicians who believe that that includes the West Bank - right or a phrase that says the state used the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and shall encourage and promote it right does that include the settlements in the West Bank for most of the people who push this law absolutely it does which means that if in the name of giving Jews self the National Cermak self-determination which Jews in Israel already have you are trampling on the possibility of Palestinian national self-determination and you had talked in fact to follow up with Peter statement you had talked about the two states you know and that it makes sense if there was a partition that partition was part of the plan can you speak further about that and that is precisely the issue between the elements here because if we agree and that is still a big if for some people that there is a legitimacy to self-determination to the Jewish people and for some people that is not legitimate in any border and it masks itself under names of multiculturalism or democracy but it basically there's this notion that the idea of Jews being a people not a religion like all people with the right to self-determine in their homeland is something that still grates on many groups and peoples there's something somehow deeply wrong about it but if we do accept it then here and I did not expect it to do it I do agree with Peter because I'm sure we recorded yes because indeed between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean there are two groups whatever each thinks about the invented nature of the other they seem to violently agree that they are not the other so they are both have the equal right to either be equal citizens in one state or have me citizens in two states my preferred Direction simply I do believe that the Jewish people have the universal right to self-determination and generally I think Jews being a powerless minority in an Arab country was not the purpose of Zionism but once you have two states then it should be understood that one is Jewish and one is Arab it is not against democracy it is not against the Equality of the citizens but for example you write if you enshrine equality and you don't say the borders then this is something that I don't want because I don't want a bill that is promoted by people who want an Israel from the river to the sea and then there is equality in it and then the Jews become a minority in an Arab state so for me the legitimacy of this bill can only come once Israel indeed delineates its final eastern border and regardless of whether the Palestinians are ready to accept the true idea of partition that this land will be divided between the equal sovereign Jewish people and the equal sovereign Palestinians even if that doesn't happen if Israel delineates an eastern border leaving room for Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza the nation-state bill within that is very legitimate and indeed this is why I moved from eight years ago to signing the bill and defending it as merely barebones Zionism because that was in the context of a government and a speech and negotiations of moving to partition in that spirit of a Jewish state in an Arab state with time and context make a difference here they make then they entirely make the difference precisely because there's so little in the law I mean there are very I mean there's very very little in it context makes all the difference indeed the law has been after laying dormant for quite some time it was not exactly pushed all the time it lay dormant for quite some time and then it was picked up by people who do indeed have a vision that of Wonju at once taped from the river to the sea where Palestinians will not have the right to self-determination but they don't they also don't have the liberal vision in my view naive liberal vision of our president of one state where everyone can be equal citizens and Jews and Arabs will not descend into Yugoslavia or Syria so because they don't have this vision and they promoted the law I started to oppose it but with a very clear claim I do not oppose what's in the law I'm not an anti Zionist I'm a very proud and comfortable Zionist and I do believe that the Jewish people have that universal right but it also has to be clear that the Arab Palestinians have the universal right within our borders we can exercise that collective right they can exercise that collective right and the law becomes legitimate only under leadership in people who have a vision of partition you know if I don't expect that you'll be political analysts but I looked at the vote I mean we look at the vote so it was 62 in favor and I think 45 against and there were 3 abstentions and 50 something and and one one no-show so which would indicate that there wasn't a huge plurality right it was it was closer than one would have imagined which would seem to indicate that there was dissension significant dissension within the Knesset itself how did that break down but it was precisely on this issue this is the other thing and this is more political machinations Netanyahu realized that because a lot of people like myself moved away from supporting the bill because it began to be promoted by people who have a very particular vision which i think is dangerous he saw it as a great political opportunity to drive a wedge under normal conditions a leader would want to pass the law under the biggest majority possible because this is the one you want to show to the world where you have wide support that the one thing that the vast majority of Israelis agree on is that Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people and can exercise that self-determination but Netanyahu was actually interested in not having that he actually made a point of not for example introducing the idea of equality or others in the law in order to not enable parties like Kadima like the Labour Party to support it because he wanted to be able and this is exactly what he did is to say look these people they don't support our anthem they don't support the flag and and that was suddenly a great way to kind of send them out of the consensus paint them as traitors and basically be the party of the anthem and the flag and that was really a lot of politics and why he was actually very pleased with this kind of thin razor thin majority and I'm sure I wasn't planned but there was something symbolic I think about Orban you know coming from Hungary right before the vote I mean he you know Viktor Orban in terms of you know kind of a nationalist somebody represents a nationalist populist movement so let me let me turn to you know the way Israelis would think about whether what this bill means to American Jews because it plays out here right there was tremendous dissension here there were you know number of op-ed pieces about it could widen can certainly say who cares right about American Jews but on the other hand there is a growing sense of of a division between Israeli Jews and American Jews on and this just added to it we would that seem correct analysis the it's important to consider how this affects American Jews it's also important to understand that how it affects American Jews is not something that is fixed or comes from the sky different groups have different interests in having this affect American Jews in different ways we often hear that there's a growing rift between American in Israel but the part of that is I think manufactured there are many people who would like there to be a rift between American Jews and Israel and will do things such as misrepresent the contents of this law for example many American Druze may never have seen the contents of this wall until today we there is a weaponization of the writ of the creating a rift for example let's let's discuss the issue of equality might seem what American Druze might be very alarmed to hear that Israel passed a basic law dealing with national character that doesn't include equality but they might not be aware that the Israeli Constitution already protects equality the Supreme Court has long held that equality is protected by the Constitution and indeed when one of the parties one of the opposition parties challenged the basic law for being unconstitutional what was the argument they said it's unconstitutional because it violates the constitutional protection of equality but wait I thought the quote is not protected by the Constitution so the quality is already in there that's why it wasn't put in getting back to the emetic back to the American Jews the rift is purely a function of how it's reported and how it's perceived if one focus there was opposition to the law that sounds scary opposition to a law that's that's a problem so in Israel as an America we have a system for dealing with situations where some people like an idea and other people don't where there's one group who's for it one group who's against it and it's called democracy and the Knesset 61 votes is pretty good it's more than a lot of other basic laws of God and when you have people with different views how do you reconcile them through the democratic process now Israel is a very concerned of course about American jewelry and if the if American Jews are told that Israel has passed a fascist apartheid law that happens to be like the laws of most countries in the world but is for Israel it's it's bad it's unacceptable yes that will drive them away from Israel but again like everything about this discussion it's not because of anything in the law it's it's about the spin the contents of the law are not what's driving the wedge it's the spin on the wall and I would encourage American Jews to ask themselves so Peter and I already agreed on something again also this is going to be great progress so we disagree Peter we agree it seems Peter says that the Palestinian Eider yeah yeah Peter the Palestinian says the Palestine Constitution isn't a problem because it says there is no state of Palestine the UN many country most countries in the world would disagree but that's just on the question of you know have they achieved sovereignty yet but if these provisions are so problematic and that our religion Israel does not have an official religion an official single language a national character then surely American Jews should find themselves very distressed to be calling for the creation of a state of Palestine which on its first day will be an apartheid state under every provision of its constitution so American drew because it has all this unless they're going to change the constitution today they achieve achieve statehood American Jews need to understand the Israel's existence Israel has an existence outside of the conflict with the Palestinians so a not one that we talked about where does this war apply what's the what's the effect of this wall in the West Bank for example the answer to that is very clear there is no need to be concerned about its effect on the West Bank because Israel has a clear legal rule acts of Knesset do not apply in the West Bank this is not about the West Bank it does not apply to the West Bank and Israel has a right today Israel Israel Israeli democracy to govern itself and not be held hostage to negotiations and diplomatic processes with the Palestinians Israel existed before the conflict with the Palestinians and it has an existence that is separate from the israeli-palestinian conflict though in America that may be how many people choose to see I'm going to need your kind of legal expertise here too because just to clarify some language you talk about Israel has a constitution right the fact is that doesn't have a constitution as we may imagine a constitution it has a set of basic laws cause quasi Constitution in little pieces right over rolling over time and Krait had said basic laws that have been passed over the time which you're then talking about and in a corporate way as the Constitution yeah and but the point that has been raised that maybe it should have more votes of more consensus this gets to the heart of not a problem of this basic law but with the entire Israeli constitutional system basic laws unlike American constitutional provisions which needs supermajority support because they Trump legislation Constitution beats a law so the Constitution needs to get more votes when I say quasi Constitution every Israeli basic law is passed by a majority that's not a good system it's better to have a system in which a law that Trump's another law is passed by a supermajority but that's never been a feature that's not a feature we wouldn't have half the basic laws of that world feature and that is nothing special to this basic law that is just the weird fits and starts nature of Israeli constitutionalism you know I think and it certainly Sayid and you Peter have probably have the best best able to answer the question I'm going to ask about kind of the youth of this country right especially even Jewish youth of this country and how they perceive it and what difference does it make to them in terms of where we seek the next generation of Jews in this country moving any sense of how this this law and the talk about this law has impacted people on the campus for instance birthright trips I usually don't go into internal debates which I'm which I'm doing right now about what the American Jews but I'm really very happy to know that Israel is is that equality in Israel is really very powerful apparently and and that also there is no problem called occupation and it's not about Palestine or people calling to impose the law there and we don't have to care also about parts of the law calling tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu it's the national duty of Israel to to develop Jewish settlements inside Israel and I saw also different variations of the law before that actually it was calling for segregation between Palestinians and Israelis and yes one of the reasons may be that they established the law was because of the of more Arabs want to live because because of their poverty and because they not even want Arab village not that I'm calling to status to establish separated places for the Arabs and because people who want to live in a fuller I'm sure that you follow that stories or income occur male or an adult elite yes first demonstrations with politicians forbidding Arabs to live in Israeli cities not to talk about kibbutzim and the law of committees that was yes the Cardin petition and the Supreme Court decision back then that Arab yes he needs to go to the Supreme Court in order to live in a Jewish state and we don't want to change them the the Jewish state or the character of Jewish state most of the Arabs who want to live in a fula and really want to be part and they are rejected time after time and and again about the legitimacy of the Jewish people legitimacy I think should be should be yes of course nationality artificial and constructed as it might be but it's it's a reality that we have to deal with but I don't think that there is something called a legitimacy for national that's that's the national discourse which I agree that's the reality but I think the Resta mystery of the State of Israel to exist as the determination of Jewish people should be by the acts by the ethical acts by the moral act you are not expecting all Palestinians to become Zionists like the Binyamin Netanyahu order maybe to end the occupation maybe it's different maybe if we'd see different approach and maybe if we see different and and and and honestly probably somewhere else would not in this discourse would like to say that but since 1948 the majority of the Arabs wanted to be citizens equal citizens in the status Israel now I know that actually we are equal citizens in the State of Israel relaxed the law that concerns yes there are still still most of them when I'm when I'm asked to talk to why pack neither their beliefs my students and that they called advanced Hebrew with Arabic accent that I teach in universities and I love my students and they're of course very they grew up in a very honest houses but you see the James Street and different voices concerned about that my 50-cent regarding the internal I think it's very clear in the law they're written that for the horrific people it was it was changed several times because of the reform and the reform Akande and the conservative judaism in the states so so so so so so so actually in the law if you read it of course it says that we will support the Jewish identities around the world but in the Diaspora Jewish but not in Israel it's kept in the hands of the horrific people and the definition of what is Judaism in the State of Israel it relates to the Diaspora in a different way that it relates to Judaism in Israel so that's something that yes of course was meant to to also you know to deal with the heretic in Israel and also with with what different kind of concept of Judaism in the Diaspora and I saw you shaking your head because there is a glossing here of really on a lot of the fundamental issues often when I speak to Americans about national strength determinations about nation states about the term that has become here so like ethno-nationalism and then I have to tell them that's nationalism but in America Americans because America is different Americans are under the impression that the world looks like America and I often have to remind Americans that America is the exception rather than the rule the vast majority of the earth is land is divided between nation-states where there is a kind of overlapping and unity of the various elements of the collective of people ethnicity language and sometimes even religion and in that context the idea that there is something particularly offensive about Jewish nationalism or Jewish self-determination that is the question that people need to ask why that grates on their sensibilities and also in the context of our region yes there is no problem that every state is Arab and yet we do need to acknowledge that at the core of the conflict remains the fact that the Arab world and the Palestinians within that refused to acknowledge the equal and legitimate right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their ancient homeland and even part of it so that part that remains at the core there has never been a moment there you have phrases like Israel's right to exist or Israel but when you go to the core of it of saying do you accept that the Jewish people as a people were not a religion as a people have the same universal right that all or so many people's enjoy around the world to be masters of their fate in their own state and therefore to divide the land between the two legitimate presences that to indigenous peoples of this land to date the answer has been no there's no legitimacy to that and that is a very different discussion which is why I say if people oppose that then their opposition to the law it's not interesting because the law becomes merely just one more way to rail against Zionism against the basic idea that Jews have a right to power Jews have a right to sovereignty and Jews have a right to equality among the nations then that is outside so this is if people who are not from either citizens of the State of Israel or from the Jewish people rail against it it's really none of their business there's nothing unique or special about Jewish self-determination that should be opposed within the family we go into the discussion about really the debate about the conflict the borders those who have a different vision but once you accept the idea that there are two peoples with two legitimate rights to self-determination everything else really falls into place let me just I have some facts here's some polls very recent polls that when it comes to accepting Israel as a nation of Jews two-third of Jerusalem Arabs accept it only a third of West Bank Arabs accepted and interestingly 55% of Gazans accept Israel's the nation of Jews so this by the way this came from Steve beim who I respect as a you know as a qualified keeper of this data so there there is that sense but and I think part of the discussion I think that's happening in the country is that tension that's always been there about Israel as a democracy in Israel as a Jewish state and that somehow that is you know is perceived not necessarily as we listen to this a reality but perceived as a tension that's it's that's really in jeopardy now which is a couple things I mean the PLO exactly accepted Israel's right to exist in 1993 right and all of the Arab countries in the in the in the Arab Peace Initiative accepted Israel's right to exist if there was a there was a a two-state solution and I what they called a just an agreed upon solution to the refugee question right no actually that's fact that is in fact the case now the claim about accepting Israel as a Jewish state that's true that has not been that has not been accepted but I just want to get to a couple other points look I am a Zionist maybe not exactly the same kind of Zionist to Eugene and a not but but but but a Zionist and I believe in the I believe in a certain kind of Jewish state but let's not pretend that the right to national self-determination is universal it's not universal the Kurds don't have a state that they want one the Basques don't have escaped the Scots don't have a state that's Kashmiri you don't have a state de Beaune have a state the Palestinians don't have a state right and many of the people most fervently devoted to Jewish self-determination want to deny the mistake right state and they don't look at wrong we do not say that someone is an anti Kurdish bigot because they don't want to carve a Kurdish state out of Iraq Iran Turkey and Syria right the quit the point is national self-determination nations Neth Nikoli nationally bases are one way of trying to respond to people's needs for the things that states provide security representation I think the best solution and not whoo this would be a two-state solution there would be tension between the idea of equality and liberal democracy on the one hand and national self representation in both the Jewish state and the Palestinian state if we're lucky enough to get to that point but at a certain point when the tension is too great when a states desire to represent one group of people comes to profoundly at the expense of the other people that exist in that state then it is time to think about other options I hope we will not get there but when it not says she's not interested in people who have problems with this bill because they're not Zionists what you're saying it not is you are not interested in the twenty percent of your own citizens citizens of your country your country men and women who are not Jews who are not Zionists could not be Zionists by and large because it's a Jewish national self-determination and I would suspect you should be interested because you have to live alongside those people and you should care about their dignity and their livelihood because if they you don't it will come back to heart the State of Israel very badly all right I know you have a we said it because this is going to be civil conversation and that goes to those in the audience as well yeah absolutely so the the idea that at any point the Palestinian leadership or they're Arabs recognized Israel in the sense of again the principle of partition between a Jewish state and an Arab state doesn't stand to scrutiny when and it all emerges from this idea that the Palestinians call a right of return which actually doesn't exist but when Arab leaders and they all say that say that they recognize Israel or an era Peace Initiative or they support two states but that the Palestinians have this thing called the right of return which effectively would make Jews a minority in an Arab state then the only two states they have ever supported or recognized as an Arab state in the West Bank and Gaza and an Arab state to replace Israel a true recognition of the equal right of the Jewish people as equal claimants to the land never existed and therefore there was never as a result in a green so this and we should not gloss over it because this is at the core this is the reason we do not have an agreement so this really goes to why we need to discuss this and yes when 20% of Israel's citizens when I'm saying I actually don't think that they cannot be Zionists it is something that I think we take for to be a Zionist is to simply think that the Jewish people like all peoples have the universal right to self-determination and when the Basques and the kurds and others and palestinians fight for it they fight in the name of what we consider by now a universal ideal so when there is opposition if you believe that you're a Zionist you do not need to be Jewish to be a Zionist and I would even end within Israel citizens there is nothing to prevent someone who's not Jewish to be a Zionist Druze indeed many Druze define themselves as Zionists as supporters of the right of the Jewish people to self-determination you do not need to be Jewish to be a Zionist and indeed we need to take into consideration those who are Zionist and feel that the bill somehow again it's not in the bill but everything needs to be done to make sure that they feel that they're a part but there are those who would never feel that they are a part because for them nothing less than the complete dismantlement of the idea that the Jewish people have the right to self-determination would suffice and for those whom that's the vision indeed I can't share oh you know we're because we're coming to the the time limit that we set for ourselves I think it would be proper if we had Sayid and then Eugene you kind of had your your words to this you you were to the Labor Party it's just it's again as I said you are expecting all Arabs to become Zionists in order to maybe to end occupation and then I don't know so you agree very much with with with with the law if you don't see any problem with with the quality or the fact that that the citizen is defined by yes of course it's complicated and and and Judaism is not only a religion but at least it's also a religion which makes it much more complicated than than other places is there a chance for me I want to be Israeli you know yes yes but this law tells me that you are Israeli but you are less Israeli I don't tell you that if I tell you if I read that if I read that that if I belong to the Jewish people I have some collective rights that you don't deserve as a Palestinian yes so I'm less I don't belong to the Jewish people unless also besides asking for all the Palestinians and Arabs to become Zionist maybe we will convert them I will agree with that also yes of course the this is this is the problem and again you cannot talk about right you cannot about about about about the nationality as its as it's a it's a poem right or a human right disconnecting that from it's like a barber who's really cutting you very badly he's really a very bad barber and you are shouting there and he said do you deny my my my right to to open a barber shop here in New York it's it's you cannot you cannot you cannot disconnect the fact that you're occupying the Palestinian people that you are making the Citizen of Israel second and neglecting them and and telling them all the time non-stop that you don't belong and you will never belong that you are a demographic threat although we want even the truth the Zionist Druze of course there's the Druze globe they they really love Israel they consider themselves as they honest and they are still rejected look at the demonstration happened there and that's that's about the law it's saying if you are Jewish you have more rights if you are a Jewish this state is for you all the rest do not belong here and this state is not for you it is by the way in the law it is the state of any Jewish who have a Jewish mother but it's not not it's not the the state of the citizens of that state and that and that I'm not sure in in how many society this description or definition of citizenship connected still with religion is really accurate so that's the problem and and again the legitimacy of the State of Israel it cannot be disconnected from the colonial function function and it cannot be connected from history and yes if Israel will act accordingly if you remember the Oslo agreement and the hopes and we dancing in the streets may be naive maybe because we were the peace group wanting to believe that it will happen yes we were very proud of it and we you can't fool people and and and they think that the Palestinian people went so much to compromise about the historical Palestine yes the majority of the Palestinian people back then including the PLO and yes Rafa you can shake your head as you want you are occupying the Palestinian people not me and you're asking us to be earnest maybe to stop occupation are there things that you agree to do immediately for example not settling in the West Bank and Gaza and ending the occupation without any any condition or recognition of the Palestinian people just based on the international law if you are confused with ethics just follow the international law in that sense it's just it's not fair to talk about the quality about it so there about the legitimacy of Israel I wish that Israel would be but the legitimacy legitimacy of the State of Israel it's it's it's a stakes that the exercise and and the policy and the attitude not when the Israel since I don't know when and it's just getting worse telling you that will never belong here you don't belong here we don't we are not going to give you a State settlements are just getting bigger and they listen to the discourse in the political situation you cannot you cannot ignore that you cannot connect that from the Palestinians or the Arab world given the legitimacy of the State of Israel so yeah I'm gonna we're gonna give and then we'll come back hopefully we'll have an opportunity to cause you know conversation after some questions summarize much of Kushal by saying heads I win tails you lose for the past 2000 years the Jews were a people not just a religion of people without a country in every country they found themselves in they were a minority they could not exercise the powers and rights that people can exercise in political collectives as a majority that caused many and well-known problems and unhappiness after a long time the Jews managed to through their own efforts regain national sovereignty I want to relate briefly to Peters Kurdish example if the Kurds were through their own efforts to succeed in creating a Kurdish state I think one would certainly be quite anti Kurdish an anti Kurdish now and against Kurdish nationalism if one were to say then the Kurds were disbarred from keeping that state because the Arab minority in that state would be unhappy or that they would not be able to have Kurdish as the official language of an estate they achieved themselves because there would be an Arab minority who didn't like it and no one would ever make such a suggestion which shows how absurd it is so the Jews acquire Jews regain sovereignty and there are now no longer a minority but now there's a minority in the State of Israel and guess what having a minority for the Jews means the exact same thing as being a minority being a minority means you cannot legislate you know according to the majority you're not the majority and when you're in the majority you can't legislate according to the majority because now you have a majority now you have a minority so when you're a minority you're politically powerless and if you have a minority you're just borrowed from political power the bottom line is the Jews are disbarred from political power I think it's very important I do not discount the feelings of anyone who objects to the school but in a democracy there's a very sit - people feel very strongly I'm Peter says 20% I mean the Arab parties in the Knesset do not you know or not 20% of the Knesset the 10% of the Knesset there are many Arabs who do vote for Zionist parties but let's say 20% of the population oppose opposes this while very passionately but let's say many Jews the majority indeed passionately passionately support this as the realization of their historic hopes and their only how do you deal with these incompatible feelings who is to say one feeling is stronger or more right than the other so it's impossible to deal with conflicting preferences and measure their intensities we don't have in politics of a preference measure so what we do is we show up in Parliament and we vote by a majority and that's exactly what happened but when the majority vote is disbarred despite the fact that it does not take away anyone's individual rights despite the fact that does not give additional rights to any Jew or take away any rights from an Arab then we might say then then then we see the need for this law I have to say I was skeptical of the need for this law until it was passed when the law was passed well who needs to say that Israel's a Jewish state doesn't everybody know but when Israel finally declares when Israel comes out of the closet so everyone supposedly knew it's a Jewish state not allowed to say it when Israel comes or comes out and says what everybody knew and you see the reaction of the world hey you're not allowed to say that Lithuania is allowed to say that what is allowed to say that Spain's are out to say that you're not allowed to say that that's why we need to say so that we're going to move into a couple of questions that have come from the from I was going to say the congregation but the audience habits don't touch always and it really kind of in a way relates eugene to what you were talking about the question is how do secular Israelis relate to a Jewish agenda do they care about the law in other words if one was to do an assessment of the of the people of Israel are there are there people who just couldn't care the secular the secular Israelis not care about me secular Jewish is exactly what you it's it's a secular law this law is absolutely nothing to do with religion there other than Shabbat being a day of rest which is an ordinary provision there is no religious content to this it was passed by secular parties the herati parties were not involved and not particularly excited it's a secular law it was passed by a secular majority against the second one or it is an entirely internal secular conflict there's nothing to do with religion so to that this goes through the confusion I started with it perhaps it's better not to discuss this laws the Jewish state law which it's not but really think of it as the law of Zionism and Zionism is at its heart a secular idea I always like to mention that I'm a devout atheist the notion that any there's anything about religion in this law does not exist so for secular Israelis the questions not about the law secular Israelis are intensely gone maybe Jews secular Israeli Jews are intensely Zionists except for a small minority that is not in and for them the question of the law again is not whether they support the right of the Jewish people to self-determination of course they do it's what they're concerned about the fact that it's being used by the extreme right as the building block of a future annexation is agenda so I'm going to him because it's a question but we're asking you to prophesy right and the impossible the question is nothing less than how will the conflict ever end oh yeah so first of all if you want there's a video I have on YouTube which says which is called what is the conflict really bad and how will it end but the conflict will end based on the outcome of the race we're currently engaged in which is erased from a race for mutual exhaustion at the core of the conflict remains the idea that the Jewish people are a foreign and therefore temporary presence in the land and that is at the core of it and that explains the repeated refusals to accept anything that would legitimize the Jewish people as a legitimate indigenous sovereign power phul presence so what we are engaged in and have been engaged for over a hundred years is a race of mutual exhaustion whereby the Arab world more broadly is trying to exhaust the Jewish people into basically leaving and thereby legitimizing the notion that Israel is the second crusader state a foreign temporary presence and we are trying to exhaust the other side into finally letting us be into accepting that as crazy as it is we are and indigenous people who have come home that this is our homeland we are not foreigners we are not some white settler European colonialists this is our home we don't need all of it there are two peoples in this land but we do need to know that we are secure and accepted in part of it and accept it as equals the idea that you sometimes hear we have no problem with Jews only with Zionists that means we have a problem with Jews who want power with Jews who want equality we want to be accepted not as a powerless minority that knows its place that everyone is willing to accept us as we want to be accepted as a sovereign people who are finally masters of our fate and if you allow me for a minute I do a little thought experiment for right-wing settlers for all those who think that Israel has gone to the right is that there will never be peace and so forth tell them look let's imagine this scenario the Saudi King sick and decrepit does a Sadat he comes to the Knesset flanked by the king of Jordan and the King of Morocco and they give this speech we're done we thought you were foreigners we fought you military invasion terrorism economic boycotts UN condemnation --zz intellectual warfare but you stuck it out you seem to have really gotten into your heads that this is your home so welcome home we recognize that you are indeed you belong to this line that you are a tribe of this region like other tribes that your language Hebrew is a sister to our own you belong here and we will fight you no more we will no longer try to get you to leave you will have your state but you got to get out of the best quest back at that split second Jews who are living in the West Bank will run so quickly into Israel that the few settlers who think that their way of life is one will look back and will find no one and the real and when I tell that to settlers they say we know we know that if Israel finally faces a real true opportunity to be accepted in the region as equal and sovereign and the price of that would be to hand over the West Bank to forego two settlements we know they'll pay it just like they did in 37 and in 47 and after 67 in 2000 and 2008 we know they'll do it we just don't think that such a speech is forthcoming any time soon so we're safe but it really shows you that at the core of it the Jews are a small tiny minority in the region and the conflict will end at the moment that we know that we have finally been accepted and can rest as an indigenous people who have come home and accepted as equal sovereign and masters of our fate you know firstly I'm grateful you did that because I'm going to give the other three really just a minute each to leave with us the thought or question you think we should be leaving here mulling over you did that for us just now Eugene do you want to try that I think the most valuable thing we've accomplished here tonight is put in your hands a copy of the nation state law I want you to read it you should also if you read the Constitution's of some European countries see how much in common they have see if anything that has been said about the law is contained in the wall it's really a big deal to be able to in Valley they'd Democratic majorities ability to pass a law by saying it's not okay because we think you're doing it your reasons are bad you are bad or the context is bad Israel is the only majority is the only country in which the Jews are majority it doesn't have Judaism as an official religion it can at least have Hebrew as an official language if we don't allow if we don't allow the majority in Israel to enact legislation that any other country would enact we have to wait after that where I have to ask the question why are we concerned so concerned about Israel I'll end with an anecdote and not and I had a debate in front of 27 European deputy heads of mission in Israel and they were attacking provisions of this law which their own countries had in their constitution and one has to ask is this really about what's in the law or is this an attempt to deal with Judah Mize Israel further to cast it in a bad light amongst American Druze and amongst the community of nations thank you Sayid what about you about though just one question or thought you would like to think you think we should leave here mulling over as we leave it's just look at the reality and and don't try to justify using discourses from pre-modern state definitions and to the modern state definitions of nationality of people 2,000 years ago and they think that again I think that the just look look look at the at the reality and and instead of I'm not sure I think that the the king of Saudi and maybe of Morocco yet to declare that I don't know I think that it was very clear I think in very statement it a lot of statements done by Arab leaders yes you deny the wonderful the Saudi the South the Saudi peace deal Jordan and Morocco and Egypt with the State of Israel and we are here actually neglecting of course yes Messianic Jewish extreme right-wing that do not see the reality like that that do they they do see their mission as something from heaven from God about the Land of Israel we don't please don't ignore the fact that there are lives of Palestinians there and please don't when you talk about the resignation of the status or disconnected from the historical facts and and how that affects and still affect affecting the Palestinians and yes it is in the hands of Israel and yes the powerful is the one who implies or imposes the discourse and the rhythm and and the hope in that region and that's the reason I guess that I blame Israel I put it because they have the power and they I'm sure that the Palestinian people are thirsty and looking forward to have peace and someone to trust and they are the one who are under occupation and that not the opposite there are the minorities period the opposite I kept thinking when it not was giving this vision about how that would apply to a marriage since as I say to my wife look once you've given me everything I want without me doing anything first everything will be wonderful right I don't know the the there's an application of any notion that Israel itself actually should be doing any it has any responsibility to do anything different I don't know crazy thoughts maybe stop paying Israeli Jews to move into the West Bank to steal Palestinians land right maybe maybe maybe change a blockade that has led to a situation in Gaza where by 2020 it will be uninhabitable according to United Nations right maybe have an Israeli prime minister who says that he actually supports a Palestinian state as opposed to having one who repeatedly says he opposed this one right it seems to me yes there are Palestinian and Arab obligations if you want to continue you want to test who has gone further Benjamin Netanyahu or the palate the the PLO or even the Saudi regime in terms of recognizing the national rights of the other it's not even close okay in terms of what in terms of what I would want people to take away I would say this what you don't say is often as important as what you do say right you notice on this panel we keep referring to Israelis when we mean Israeli Jews right that's an example of what you don't say actually Matt and mattering you just erase people right it's as if Israeli equals Jew right one of the things that people don't like I understand about the BDS movement is that in the BDS movement statements they make references to Arab and Palestinian self-determination and don't make references to Jewish self-determination they might say we're not necess we haven't said we're against Jewish self-determination we just happen not to mention it they do this right no actually I do not in the three planks if you look if you look if the Unites States government passes law and says basically says here's the rights of Christians in the United States we haven't said Jews have any fewer rights we just didn't mention them right there's always been attention in there's attention in Israel's and a balance in Israel's Declaration of Independence it was in the earlier law for basic dignity and liberty which talked about liberty and dignity but also talked about your statehood always this balance this is what is lacking in this bill the the silence speaks volumes about a political leadership in Israel that wants permanent control over millions of Palestinians in the West Bank whose legal status will be worse than African Americans in Mississippi in the 1950s because those PA African Americans were at least theoretically citizens of the state under which they lived Palestinians in the West Bank not even theoretically citizens of a state that dominates their lives and want Palestinians in inside Israel to be permanent second-class citizens that I have the stated goals of the most powerful people pushing this law if we can understand what the BDS movement means by looking at quotations and statements by BDS leaders we can understand what this law means by looking at what I yell shaked and other leaders of this movement who want this law have said they want right so let's not be naive and let's not talk about how Palestinians are affected by things without talking to Palestinians right we would not I think want to talk about how African Americans are affected by things in the United States without talking about without talking to African Americans so we as a Jewish community and I think and I and I I think this is a panel is a good first step in this example have in this trend have got to stop talking about Palestinians without having Palestinians there to talk about their own experience so I just want to by the way I I really loved the passion and the thoughtfulness that you all exemplify tonight I appreciate on behalf of everybody who's here and the Y that you showed up despite the cold and the fact is this is part one right we just about finished part one now we can move on to the second chapter of this conversation hopefully some of you if not all of you will be back there's so much more we have to talk to because I think we just have put the trial in the field and turned over just a little bit and there's so much more so I thank all of you there's again thank you for coming I thank Jamil and village temple for being here and we look forward to seeing you again soon [Applause]

Channel: 92nd Street Y

Views: 10,695

Rating: 4.0252099 out of 5

Keywords: 92Y, 92nd Street Y, Jewish State Law, israel, Peter Beinart, Einat Wilf, Eugene Kontorovich, ayed Kashua, Rabbi Peter J. Rubinstein

Id: 7khcMkZC_gk

Length: 75min 14sec (4514 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 14 2019