Featured Speaker: John Dehlin, Ph.D. - "How Mormonism Led Me Out of Mormonism"

all right I am so honored to welcome our speaker today dr. John delenn some of you may know that about a decade ago he started a podcast called Mormon stories podcast if I understand correctly originally it was to literally just give people who were part of the Mormon phase a place to share their stories literally and it's girl that we become serve multiple needs one that does include giving a voice to transitioning and post Mormons and multiple other organizations you've found announcement that have grown out of this has been really incredible the secondary like this year last year is January now he received his PhD in psychology and it was a true labor of love for him and really exciting last week one of the places that my house of Houston Oasis and I visited was his community of good and couch valley which he helped to found last fall and we long been they decided solve the greater value of being a part of a larger network a larger family and decided to unanimously affiliate with Oasis so his we are welcoming one of our own now so may we give a really great warm welcome to someone who just became a part of our Oasis family dr. John Dolan Kanyon Helen I have to say it was a real honor to hang out with Helen and Mike for an entire weekend tour I'm Utah saying how many people were excited to participate in what you all are doing here and I have to say it's really humbling to be in front of this group of amazing people in Kansas City wondering what this white straight heterosexual white straight privileged Mormon male could ever share with with people like you but I do have a story and I think I hope you might find it a little bit interesting and I just want you to know that in many ways for years I've been dreaming about the possibility of what I'm seeing before me so I'm really moved just to be here I'm honored so thank you Helen and thanks to all of you for coming the topic that I chose today is how Mormonism led me out of Mormonism and I'm asked you to indulge me just a tiny bit as I kind of reflect on my past to my history it's not an any way to be narcissistic but instead it's just a way for me to kind of tell you a bit of my story and so I just want to start by saying that in many ways I lived the Mormon dream I'm a 6th generation Mormon my ancestors crossed the plains in many ways beginning in Ohio and Illinois and Missouri traveling across the plains to sell you know Utah Idaho but but you know when I was a baby I didn't know anything about that I knew that I had this beautiful grandmother named Carmen who was a cousin to our thirteenth prophet as your Chuck Benson Church I loved her she was this sweet old Mormon lady these are my parents on the day of their marriage they were married in the st. George temple in Utah for time and all eternity we'll get to that just a second that's me is it maybe a sweet little Mormon baby as you know Mormons are the largest participants in the Boy Scouts that's me participating in a decathlon is a young boy Here I am and all my previous you know white glory representing this sort of my people second place but still I was really I was really proud to represent there's there's my family with karma and Mertes my grandparents that's me in the bottom right this was my family around late 1970s early 1980s that's me on the bottom left and it was an amazing time went on the you know star the basketball team and that's me a prom with my buddy Chad and in so many ways I I look at my Mormon upbringing is this beautiful sweet experience almost like this white fruit that was desirable above all of the things and I'm so happy and proud of all the many virtues and values that mine that my church bestowed upon me and there are many values that I picked up some of them good and some of them maybe not so good but probably the thing that I was most proud of is growing up as a Mormon boy you know I'm I played basketball like I had a lot of friends I have a lot of opportunities to do a lot of crazy things but I you know I wasn't proud boy so ever tried alcohol ever tried tea tobacco coffee no drugs no premarital sex no masturbation like you know how many you can say you know graduate from high school having never experienced any of those things also real accomplishment was clearly proud i 100% orphan is amel tell you that wasn't natural for me at all but I did it how many of you raised Mormon raise your hands if you raised Mormon I'm asked for your help okay as I think about some of the other values that Mormonism bestowed upon me I can't help but think about some of the songs that I learned as a child and soft weird sing a few songs most of you are more than I'm asking to join in with me and just saying if your stars so the first time we're going to sing is gifts that the whole stream because ready we sing it with me okay give the little stream give up give give oak it gives a little stream as he hurried down the hill I'm small I know the wherever I go the grass grows creature still singing singing all the day give away or give away singing singing all the day I first value either as a Mormon service one small example of service growing up as a Mormon boy I remember my brother and I were thinking about how we can serve our community it was Thanksgiving we were thinking what we do that's nice we saw this homeless man we went to this little place and we bought him a turkey dinner we don't even know if he was hungry we don't know if you like Turkey we didn't care we brought this manager to dinner on Thanksgiving and that's what Mormons have been to me it meant service another song that I learned as a young primary child was dare to do right he's ready let's do it dare to do right dare to be true you have a word that no other can do do it so bravely so kindly so wall angels will Hays in the story to tell dan dan dan to do right dan dan dan to be true dare to be true dare to be true that was my second value courage right more this new big is in a heart where I got that pioneer heritage so I remember a time in fifth grade where I was worked all year to run circles around this track in physical education so that I could go to this camp out at the end of the year and I wasn't perfect I was so excited to this came out that I wouldn't stole for pocket knives from local drugstore wrapped him up in my sleeping bag was all excited to go to this key about that I'd worked all year for and my dad said you know what son your sleeping bag doesn't look quite folded quite correctly let me enroll in D general sleeping bag up right he found those two for pocket knives and he looked at me he said where did you get these and even though I installed them I couldn't buy it couldn't be dishonest and I said dad I stole him that was a hard thing to do because I worked so hard to hurt him to earn that camping trip but we decided together that I just wouldn't go that year and all my friends went on the camping trip and I had to stay back and but that was okay in some ways I felt good because I knew that I was doing the right thing because that's a Worman to do they have courage the last song that a that will share with you maybe make it one more call a lock with you and this is one of the most beautiful songs that I learned as a kid and I'll just sing a bit for you now if you don't log as most some people walk away from you but I won't I won't if you don't talk at most people do some people talk and laugh at you but I won't I won't I'll walk with you I'll talk with you that's how I show my love for you loving kindness was a really important part of my Mormon upbringing oddly this is manifested in several ways one of which was when I was a freshman in college and noticed that there are a lot of girls who weren't asked to homecoming and so instead of just thinking my favorite girl I asked everyone in dormitories would not been asked to homecoming and here's a picture of all of us going on I'm looking back this very moment but these you know these were the values and I learned his form and I'm very proud of them and these were genuinely taught to me courage and service of kindness now one final value the Mormons taught and it actually a doctrine is that that families can be forever that you can live with your family in heaven in the afterlife and this was an amazing thing if you're a Mormon because unfortunately if you're Mormon and married the temple you get to go with your favorite in heaven well unfortunately that means is for the rest of you who aren't married in example as a Mormon well your families don't get to make it I'm sorry about that that must be really disappointing for you but it was really good for us so I love my family and I was really excited to be able to be with them forever 80 in heaven now of course I did learn a few other values as a Mormon such as that homosexuality was evil that the African Native Americans were given dark skin is it cursed by God because of their wickedness and the gods not loved women to lead the church but you know those bodies weren't so bad because we had so many other good ones and in some ways I probably agreed with some of those things at the time so overall this is an amazing Mormon dream that I was engaged it was my tastic straight fabulous melees that's our quorum of the Twelve Apostles we've come a long way by the way in terms of diversity so by the way open that corner at Google I googled the words dark skin curse under Google Images you know the third image that came up over Mormon but anyway this represents how I felt growing up we lived the Mormon American Dream I was super happy I mean I see the before music oh yes I was on the price I'm not part of the musical races I want to be the Mormon who changes all mankind that was anthems me I believe that I was sent to the earth to do great things unfortunately in my Mormon you know dream a few cracks are slowly developed along the way the first crackers with my parents got divorced it's one thing to hear this beautiful primary song about families being together forever right that's wonderful that your family's intact but what happens if you're a ten year old 12 year old kid sitting in primary and you're listening to these words just after your parents got divorced families can be together forever through heavenly I always want to be with my own family and the Lord has shown me how I you're sitting there seeing all these other kids with big smiles on their face and you're realizing that you just lost that most important American dream but in one hand it makes you sad because of what you are losing personally but on the other hand it makes you think about all the many people in the world who also aren't going to have that amazing thing so it starts to develop in you a sense of sympathy of empathy for other people who don't fit in the mold both inside the church and Emma another crack that happened was and this is they are not bitter but I went to high school with Renee Zellweger she's a category award-winning actress we both went to Keaney high school my junior year it's New Years Eve and I asked Renee to go to a church dance with me so I picked her up in the car jover like 45 minutes to this New Year's Eve dance she was beautiful fun a great dancer I was really excited to continue to this more of a dancing the secret hope that she would maybe convert me know so she shows up in his beautiful dress and I had my suit on and we show up the leaders at the church should look at her and they look at me and they say they point to her and say you need to go home and change your shoulders are showing now I'm just thinking plan you know but I'm gonna hard let's go just I turn to Renee let's go change she's like crying you know I we get in the car and I'm driving home and I'm like just take me home I'm like you could have everyday salvagers of Mormont's you could have been your John Travolta what were you doing working church lost Renee Zellweger is impossible but honestly when I think about one of your values people are more important than beliefs a little cracky first as I realized that in that instance the belief was way more important than this person this was our first exposure to the church and y'all made us a little bitter than they ruined my chances of you know my chances with her name but that was another crack that developed I remember one time is a high school kid just doing the math for a second I was like how many Mormons are there in the world there's like 10 million or something at the time my counting people are in the world 5 billion so I just did the math just 0.2 percent I thought oh my gosh the one true church on the face of the earth and God made it that way you know and we're all his children but only 0.2% you know or live in his plan didn't feel quite right another crack the one of the biggest cracks on my problem of my life happened when I was on my mission in Guatemala interestingly enough they're probably two or three people here today you serve - my mission there the Oasis community who served at omissions with me in Guatemala but that's again left as a Mormon missionary and this is a monthly report that our mission president used the issue in our mission and I don't expect you to read it you guys maybe you probably can't speak Spanish anyway but the monthly newsletter is February 14 1989 and what you'll notice here you see Nana's Kahlo kedaranatha Nelson you are Mission missionaries that that achieved a the Lord's goal okay and what you see there on the right is the number of baptisms they had that month okay and so you see on their dates in some way yahwah had 39 baptisms a month how many days are there in a woman right so they're merging over a baptism a day and I was working really hard to would maybe a 10 or 11 you know and so I started asking around about how they had so many back to this and what I found out is what they would do is that they would go to the local soccer field on the mission and they would play soccer with these young Guatemalan boys and get them all hot sweaty and then afterwards they'd say hey let's go back to the church in cool off so they'd take him back to the church where the baptismal font was cool and they would baptize pirate and children at a time never having learned any discussions no parental permission they'd never been to church and that's how they were able to get 30 or 40 baptisms in a month I've since spoken with one of the missionaries who participated in this he told me that literally one of the children did a cannonball story by the way I couldn't find a Guatemalan kid doing a cannonball because army pools in Guatemala so anyway um so I I was scared I was like this seems evil there's no blame Church would approve this so I'm scared I don't want to cause trouble but I can't just sit there remember that song about having Kurds dare to do right so I told my mission president is that this doesn't feel right this is wrong president Romney and instead of like getting angry and it turns out he yelled at me for speaking against the leaders of the church you know not not supporting it obeying the leadership in the mission and he ended up exiling me to an area this Guatemalan town it was five hour bus ride to the nearest telephone 11 hour bus ride to the mission home and it was a really really sad time for me because I was so idealistic so much believed in what I was doing and I felt like the church that I loved was was not behaving as it should so I came home from my mission with these cracks in my heart but I was still very Mormon still very committed so I married my beautiful wife Marni in the South in the Washington DC temple we started living our traditional Mormon life good for children these are my beautiful children here on the deadness more cracks started to emerge when I was working at Microsoft in Seattle I started studying her in church history more and this is our Prophet Joseph Smith and while we I was taught he was this amazing man with courage and strength all these values in items formed we were taught to use this amazing husband had this beautiful wife Emma and they were really committed and devoted to each other what I learned while I was working in Microsoft was it actually Joseph Smith had 34 wives and not only did he have 34 wives but something like eight or nine of them he took on as they were married to other men at the time as his own wives and that's troubling in and of itself more troubling is I can go 31 years in the church and no one had ever told me this it had never been discussed in church my parents had never talked to me about it and I can tell you how sick I felt when I learned the truth about this man and so more crack started to develop and probably the biggest crack that developed for me was it happened slowly but while I was at Microsoft I learned about this guy named Stuart Matis was a returned missionary Mormon one day he walks up to his local mormon church building with the shotgun he pens a letter to his chest that says do not resuscitate and he shot himself in the head at the steps of his church was Mormon Church why would somebody do that turns out he was gay and that that was troubling to me but it didn't really really change me until we learned about Scott Scott is my wife's favorite cousin they're close they'd been Prince's childhood the dearest individual sweet artistic kind gentle loving and while we were out in his yellow Microsoft we found out that Scott himself had come out as gay he came out to us before he came out to his own parents and what was most troubling about this is the sweet beautiful incredible man told us that he had come close several times to killing himself because because he felt so ashamed it was at that point where I said this is unacceptable I learned later if Utah largest rate of suicide of young men between the ages of 14 and 25 I realized this was a national this is a statewide epidemic that one-third of the homeless in Utah were LGBT youth that had been kicked out of their homes and I remembered this song right Jesus walked away from none he gave his love to everyone so I would and I said we can't stay silent about this kind of stuff and I make a really long story short I started a podcast to talk about these issues called Mormon stories I was invited to give a TED talk about being an ally for LGBT individuals with the foreman ISM I became an open supporter of women being ordained into the church trying to follow the Mormon values and I have been talking again you know just like the song said kids that the little stream to give up give I wanted to give you these people that I felt were mistreated and unappreciated well to make it even longer story short in February of last year 2015 I received a letter from my state president dr. Brian King who let me know that I would be someone to a disciplinary council for my church and excommunicated my work with Mormon stories for my advocacy drill 20 individuals for my support of women ordination in the church and for basically speaking openly about my doubts and concerns about the church so let's execute David I don't want to trivialize it I can tell you and I can speak to you now in sort of a calm collective way but in reality this is one of the most difficult things I've ever been through because that sweet Mormon boy that had so many amazing experiences looked upon his church with so much love and so much fondness I was I was basically kicked out of my church the church that I love the church that was so proud of for what I felt like was living the values that I've been taught as a Mormon but the good news is I still feel like I'm Mormon I just sort of post Mormon kind of Mormon cultural Mormon I still feel very Mormon it's kind of like a secular - I don't know and to be honest I don't see dr. King or you know president Romney or Joseph Smith as evil people I really don't as I kind of think about what happened they're living according to some ideas that some people taught that they happen to believe and instead of targeting my anger at them or the church what's interesting to me now is the idea that ideas really matter ideas are what change the world and so it just so happens that these men you are very gifted and talented in many ways have to be taught a set of ideas that are suboptimal that have some good trades but also they can do armed and so that's you know so I kind of come to the conclusion out that religion is evil religion can help you teach can help teach you good values but it can also teach you some really bad betters religion to help teach you good values but you don't need religion to be and to do good things and so I've decided that I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater I'm going to retain a lot of the Mormon values that mean a lot to me I'm going to try my best to remain and honest I'm going to try my best to be kind I'm going to try my best to serve other people to love people and I believe in the type of community that I enjoyed as a foreman and that's the type of community that I see here in front of me today perhaps some of the values that I'm not so interested in holding on to are things like patriarchy and bigotry and exclusivity and the God speaks to others you know but he won't speak to me God's out there I'm listening as soon as you show up I'm paying attention until then I'm going to make use of every single moment I have because this may be the only life that I or that any of us get so now I don't believe in life before death the life that's in front of me right now and this doesn't make me wonder what's the purpose of life what this makes me do is realize that every single moment is precious because I only have a few years left and that may be all that I get that's what I love about Oasis because if we're going to talk about some ideas that are really transformative this is not a bad set of values the people are more important than beliefs the reality is known through reason the meaning comes from making difference that human hand solve human problems and that we should be accepting and be accepted that sounds a lot the Mormon values that I can get her up with with a few of them left out feels pretty good so Mormons are known as pioneers we're the ones who with others cross the plains we left things that were difficult we left behind the teachings of our forefathers we left our comfortable cities and towns that we had settled we cross the plains we endured hardship we saw this vision of what could be and we built this beautiful set of cities you know along along the mountain west and I'm proud of my pioneer heritage and what I just like to end with today is to tell you that what I see here what I see in front of you what I see how I'm doing and my doing and all of you here doing today you seem to be picking up the Pioneer values that I inherited as a Mormon you seem to have courage and strength and determination to do something that's not easy right there are skeptics out there don't believe in what you're doing try to form a secular community that can be built around love and service and kindness and acceptance of tolerance without the doclet without the control without the manipulation without the bigotry that's not easy it's been trying to do time it's failed what you're doing and Mike's doing it in Houston and I hear it's being done in Boston San Antonio and there are a lot of us paying attention all across the United States to what you guys are doing right here in Kansas City and I'm telling you I'm inspired by them you guys are showing the courage and the strength of the term to leave something behind to dream about a better way to explore new territory and to build something beautiful and I'm telling you what I see right here what I see right before me this is beautiful and this is something worth emulating so I'm still not an optimistic hopeful Mormon boy with the with the values of love and kindness and service and charity and all I can say is I'm inspired and I want to be a part of what you're doing and there's a bunch of us in Utah we're going to try to team with you to make this Oasis dream a reality so thank you very much for your time it's time for a few questions do I have another line coming okay snow game takes place waste community comes to you with a mic I think I'll have another microphone er here in a second and then please ask a question keep it one or two sentences of long or short do we have any questions for job very quick thinking I've left Norman holy yes your time how do i purchase for your divorce um it wasn't something that was justified they were just deeply I think I'm happy I love them they're amazing people they get along quite well today but you know one of the things that happens is the church encourage you to get very super young my mom was probably 18 or 19 when she got married they encouraged you have kids immediately they have four kids within a relatively short span of time they didn't learn what intimacy was in some ways they were more married to the church the to each other and by the time I was a young kid they just fell apart and so it wasn't a conscious decision that was rationalized it was just a series of unfortunate events that left them no choice so it was tragic but ironically as much as Mormons emphasize family our divorce rates are identical to the broader divorce rates in the United States and so just we're just like everybody else we get divorced you know yes he's got good cop one of the things I've noticed coming out along with myself with our seem very insolent edge geometry is not integrating well with other segments how do we go out as individuals or group seeking integrating X formats into second so how do X Forman's sort of become more integrated with broader culture and society and how do we help them to become how do we help them to become yeah I don't know that i don't know that x formants are wanting someone to help them I think that I think that it's a very traumatic thing to to be raised in a really fundamentalist religion and then to feel that sense of betrayal that sets a disappointment that sense of regret like oh my gosh I'm 30 or 40 I would have studied something different and would have married someone different I would have made a whole bunch of life choices a lot of performers are just healing from trauma or disappointment or sadness or guilt and many of them the last thing they want is to join another group where they can be disappointed again many of them need years of processing and almost deprogramming from the things that they've been taught establishing their own set of values because their value as well churches values and it's really disorienting to figure out never drink before it never had premarital sex before like I and all of a sudden you can do anything you want because you don't have the church's values on top of you so it's it's you know what I like to say is there's going to be this processing that happens in post religious communities where people struggle and argue and get a great event and process and support each other and all that can happen is we can build a big beautiful alternative and it can just be their doing and being good ladies I'm inspired by the service projects that I hear you guys do hearing it's a city of these in and down in Houston and that's just a big light that gets put up on a hill for everybody to see and there's a lot of exponents that are just never going to want to join anything again that even smells like a religion at the same time if we do good things together build beautiful communities to do important service things they're going to be those who say I'm ready to move on and and stop looking behind me and start looking forward and to join a community that I can trust again and I love the transparency that you guys have with financial transparency I love the ways that you're you know not addictive dictatorship that you you rule things by governance by by a board and there's so many values of the way that Oasis is run that I think it's going to be attractive to people who are open to community and so that's my answer let's build something big right beautiful and those who want to join us can and will Ottawa's experience did you have any issues with any of the supernatural teachings of the church or where your problems strictly with social issues supernatural like spiritual concerns any specific supernatural teaching yeah of course you know I remember where we're taught as Mormons that we have this Book of Mormon and if we pray if we read the book from cover to cover and pray that the Holy Ghost that God will manifest the truth of the book unto us and so I remember the sixteen-year-old boy reading that book cover-to-cover it's not a fun read by the way it's tellin some felons nothing if it got some inspiring stuff in it but I didn't care like I'm just going to read the book getting in make that prayer and get a witness that the church was true so I did that I'd melt on my knees and wear the Mormon sixteen-years-old melted my bed said that prayer and waited for an answer from God and it didn't come so I prayed again it didn't come I just said oh my gosh what what's because they're so you know and what we often do in religion is instead of like thinking maybe there's not a god right we turn back to ourselves and we say what's what's wrong with me maybe I wasn't worthy what did I do wrong and in that setting for several years is feeling like I mean I had never even you know a lot of stuff I felt like I was living pretty righteously so I was confused by feeling unworthy but at the same time living what I thought was a pretty high standard of living so that was a crack and yeah and there are a lot of theological problems the the just the issue of how blacks in the church were denied being members in full fellowship until 1978 like even as a kid growing up in Texas that didn't feel right to me at the time and so the exclusivity bothered me the polygamy bothered me but but still the cultural pull is so strong I mean your ancestors your parents your siblings your community it's all tied in there so that gravity of community and family is so strong that that can keep you in for many many years but yeah I have historical problems now the history had been hidden for me for so many decades that it wasn't until in my thirties where I really learned to history so that became a problem for me later but yeah ideological concerns doctrinal concerned spiritual concerns and eventually historical concerns and then social justice concerns but that shows how powerful the effects that religion are inspite of carrying all those concerns with me I didn't really contemplate ever leaving the church until my mid-30s and even then it took me another 10 years to leave and I sort of had to make him kick me out because I wasn't going to leave on my own I was basically going to just be as vocal as I could about the problems until they either decided that they were going to deal with the problems or kick me out and that's how they chose to roll so you started Mormon stories podcast as a Mormon and now you're not least so understand from us burger yeah and what my question though is that is there a great clear and strong evolution the way you're thinking of those was the 10 years of the podcast that you see that and your ideas changing as the podcast goes yeah yeah I thank you for the question um as far as my own beliefs go now I just I like I said in the talk I believe in this life right now and I I personally think that I don't love the term technology as doctors I have a problem with them I just it's just gonna sound cliche but I don't like defining myself by some other construct that someone else hands to me I don't like the limitations of those labels I just don't think anyone can know whether there's a heaven or whether there's a god or peepee like I said if God wants to come talk to me I'm all ears but until he does I'm going to focus on his life yeah for sure for sure because I 5 you a lot of about the history when I started the podcast but I started interviewing historians and I got sicker and sicker to my stomach over the years as I've learned more and more and more about our history you know so I could Joseph Smith I knew that he was witness later I learned that he married other people's wives was really disturbing later I learned that if a woman declined his polygamous advances and then spoke openly about it he would call her a in the local newspaper and that stuff over time just really it's a waving but I have read this author called chyme Potok talked about judaism in how it evolved over time into reform judaism where you don't even have to believe in God or the Moses the founder of the religion existed you can still me a Jew you just aren't cultural Jew and so for many years as Mormon stories progressed I had this belief that we could turn a branch of Mormonism in the progressive Mormonism where people can throw away the bad beliefs but still remain culturally and socially affiliated so a lot of my time in Mormon stories was trying to transform the church inside and make space for a more progressive non literal version of Mormonism but they they aren't having to do that to our Christopher at the point of you in your discovery as a founder and arrive at a point where you discovered so much this layer on layer apply apply apply in terms of church history and the foreman all that that you had this moment where you said this perception nor is the deception it is fraud all these people in tiling you know equal a mobile level our one request but the moment which in really in really stone we realize this deception info yeah so for me I started realizing that the church wasn't true back in like 2000 2001 2002 something like that and that was really hard step to sort of be willing to ask the question is it possible it's not true but I was still committed the big and amount progressive liberal Mormon unchanged for me I started the podcast in 2005 and immediately this flood it was just like that she used water balloon in the sky and someone poked a big hole in it and all this water started crashing down and pain and suffering in English because all these people all these Mormons were suffering either quietly at church or having left the church ostracized by their parents their spouses their siblings because of their unwillingness to go along but no one had a place to go to talk about it and so what they do is they would email me or call me or drive from like Wyoming to Utah or fly from Brooklyn to Logan Utah and say can I just spend two hours with you can I just tell you my story and people would start telling me I'm secretly gay but my wife doesn't know I'm bulimic I have a sexual addiction I'm chronically depressed I'm suicidal my son killed himself I found my son my gay son my beautiful gay son walked into the garage I found my son hanging there from the rafters and so I go my gosh and I had no idea that there was so much pain and suffering going on so then I decided I was going to become a psychologist to help these people so I enroll in a psychology program and I started treating Mormons at the University of Utah State University and I'm finding all these gay kids who are suicidal all these gay kids who married women because the church told them if they married them their gayness would go away and it didn't go away and I'm finding all these women who are depressed and all these missionaries that are literally cutting themselves because they masturbate and they can't stop right I'm like it's not like that's all Mormonism is there's plenty there's plenty of people who grow up in Mormonism at this fantastic beautiful joyous experience but what's unacceptable is the collateral damage of all the minority groups who fall outside the church is sort of template for what's acceptable and at some point I got exposed to so much pain that I said there's no way that I can remain complicit in silent in this effort that has beauty but is damaging people of color women sexual minorities etc and it was I sort of you know and then proposition 8 happened and the church started campaigning open against same-sex marriage and I'm just like fight is on you know and so I just became activated and then that's what changed it for me thank you how's your own family changed did your wife children come on this journey with you before did they develop kind of the things we you did that I had to change her I am like the luckiest man in the world because you know as you guys are probably heard you know other groups like psychology organism is the type of religion where if husband decides that he no longer believes it is not uncommon for the wife simply leave them and take the children for parents to completely disowned or or remain forever disappointed in their child for leading the church I often like to say that if you're an ex-mormon and you cure cancer you're still going to be a disappointment to your parents and that's true and so part of what you know along the lgbtq South the women's health people color stuff the way that X for most Mormons are treated is completely unacceptable and outrageous and so I am the luckiest man in the world that my wife was willing to read and consider the stuff that I read she loved her cousin Scott and she saw a lil gays were treated in the church and so she came along with me for the ride she's been incredibly supportive of Mormon stories and all my work trying to reach out to the world hasn't been easy it took her toll in our marriage and I was saving everyone but ignoring my own family so we've had to make adjustments so that I'm not neglectful of what's most important which is my wife and kids but uh but yeah once I was excommunicated my wife resigned from the church the day after I was excommunicated we wanted our you know I'm proud of my wife because she said we're not going to make our journey our kids journey and we're not going to become sort of an alternative to the church sort of a negative image of the church to our children by telling them you have to leave the church now so we just let our kids have their own journey and over time they all decided that the Church wasn't for them my oldest daughter resigned from the church just just a few months ago because she she wasn't comfortable she's an LGBT ally she went to a light training at the University and she wasn't comfortable having the church with her name on the rolls given the values of the church wavers so we're all out of the church but we're super happy our marriage is stronger than ever my kids are healthier and happier than ever I'm not saying that like life is all better when you leave religion it can get worse and there are a lot of happy religious people but for us it's been an incredibly amazing experience we have better friends we've ever had feel more authentic than we've ever felt and our family's closer than it's ever been so I I just say the future is super bright so we're happy thank you for asking but we're the lucky ones all right well thank you John calm Internet little bit so if you had actually an opportunity to ask it will hopefully have a chance afterwards for at lunch so that's funny you said you are hoping to be in the Mormon that helped change all mankind and after spending so much time with you in Utah and then even yesterday he held a religious transitions workshop here in Kansas City I can assure you you are a Mormon that helped change all mankind hands down absolutely

Channel: Kansas City Oasis

Views: 71,250

Keywords: Oasis Kansas City kcoasis secularism John Dehlin Exmormon post mormon Primary songs

Id: -ov-1hyodY8

Length: 46min 5sec (2765 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 30 2016