[MUSIC] HELLO. WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO "FATHER SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. WE ARE ONE DAY AWAY FROM THANKSGIVING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES IF YOU ARE WATCHING US LIVE. YOU CAN REACH US VIA FACEBOOK, TWITTER, GO TO THE MAGIS CENTER WEBSITE, BROWSE THAT. AS WELL AS CREDIBLECATHOLIC.COM. AND THIS IS THE UNIVERSE. FATHER SPITZER'S NEW BOOK IS AVAILABLE THROUGH THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE, ALL THINGS CATHOLIC. ewtnrc.com. FATHER CHARLES CONNOR OUR CATHOLIC HISTORIAN HERE ON EWTN. ALWAYS A THE BEST. CHECK OUT HIS BOOK THROUGH THE RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE. WE TURN TO FATHER SPITZER AND ASK FOR A PRAYER FOR GREAT FRIEND OF THE NETWORK AND YOURS WHO IS DOWN WITH COVID. SO YOU WANT TO MENTION HER. WE WILL LOOK AT HER PICTURE, AS WELL. >> THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AMEN. HEAVENLY FATHER, WE ASK YOU TODAY TO WATCH OUT OVER OUR COUNTRY, WATCH OUT OVER OUR CULTURE AND OUR CHURCH. WE ASK ESPECIALLY THAT YOU SEND YOUR HOLY SPIRIT DOWN UPON DOUG, MYSELF, ALL OF OUR AUDIENCE MEMBERS THIS DAY TO INSPIRE US, GUIDE US AND PROTECT US SO THAT EVERYTHING WE DO WILL BE BROUGHT TO FRUITION FOR YOUR WILL, YOUR KINGDOM AND YOUR CHURCH. WE ASK THAT YOU BLESS BARBARA, A SPECIAL FRIEND OF MINE AND THE NETWORK'S BLESS THEY ARE THROUGH HER FAITH WITH GREAT CONSOLATION, HEALTH AND HEARING SO SHE CAN GET THROUGH THIS COVID CHALLENGE WITH GREAT GUSTO AND BE BACK WITH US AND DOING HER BROADCAST AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, BACK TO HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS. WE ASK ALL OF THESE THINGS THROUGH JESUS, OUR LORD, AMEN IN AMEN. >> OUR LADY OF PERPETUAL HEALTH PRAY FOR US IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AMEN. >> A LOT OF PEOPLE REMEMBER BARBARA NOT ONLY FROM HER RADIO SHOW BUT FOR YEARS -- ACTUALLY THE PICTURE WAS TAKEN WHEN SHE WAS HOSTING THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOG. THERE SHE IS ON THE CATALOG SET FOR. SHE DID A LOT OF PRO LIFE WORK. >> ALSO THROUGH THE RADIO PROGRAM, WHICH IS PROBABLY HOW YOU CAME TO KNOW HER. SHE'S DONE SEVERAL INTERVIEWS WITH ME ON MY NEW BOOKS. SHE GOT THE GOOD FIGHT THERE AND DEFINITELY BIG PRO-LIFE WARRIOR AND STILL IS. SHE'S VERY SUPPORTIVE INDEED. >> WE WANT TO BE CLEAR. BARBARA IS STILL WITH US. WE ARE ASKING FOR PRAYER. KEEP HER AND HER FAMILY IN YOUR PRAYERS. AS YOU MENTIONED, WE ARE DOING THIS SHOW THE WEDNESDAY BEFORE THANKSGIVING. I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE IF WE TALK ABOUT AN ARTICLE THAT RECENTLY I SAW. THE FEDERALIST PUT UP CALLED SOCIALISM FAILED MISERABLY FOR THE AMERICAN PILGRIMS LIKE IT. THE PILGRIMS DID TRY IT OUT AND IT GOES ON TO SAY ALTHOUGH THE WORD SOCIALISM HADN'T BEEN INVENTED THE COLONY BORE RESEMBLANCE TO A SOCIALIST SOCIETY. THEY DEMANDED THE COLONY OPERATE COMMUNALLY EVERYTHING WAS OWNED JOINTLY. NO ONE WAS ALLOWED TO HAVE PRIVATE BUSINESS. THE COMMUNAL SOCIETY, ECONOMIC STRUCTURE PROVED THAT THE COLONISTS WERE WILLING TO WORK HARD -- BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T WILLING TO WORK HARD FOR THE COMMONWEALTH OF THE COMMON GOOD. PEOPLE HEAR HOW STUFF IT WAS AND STARVATION. THE REALITY IS PART OF IT WAS THE NATURE OF HOW IT WAS SET UP IN THE BEGINNING. >> EVERY TIME COLLECTIVIZATION OCCURS WE CAN SEE A DIRECT OR INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL REACTION. IN OTHER WORDS, AS COLLECTIVISM OR SOCIALISM INCREASE WHERE EVERYBODY OWNS EVERYTHING IN COMMON, BUSINESSES ARE OPERATED IN COMMON, OVERSEEN, AS IT WERE, BY SOME GOVERNMENTAL STRUCTURE, RELIGIOUS OR SECULAR. THE MINUTE THAT HAPPENS YOU HAVE A DECLINE IN CREATIVITY, A DECLINE IN INCENTIVE AND RISK TAKING. THOSE THREE THINGS TOGETHER, THE MOMENT YOU HAVE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A FAILED SYSTEM BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE ENERGY, THE FORTITUDE, THE RESILIENCE, THE COURAGE THAT IT TAKES TO TAKE THE RISK AND MOVE YOUR CAPITAL INTO AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN. NOBODY HAS ANYTHING TO GAIN. ONCE YOU HAVE GOT THAT, ALL YOU HAVE IS SORT OF A PLACID ENVIRONMENT, LACKING CREATIVITY AND INCENTIVE FORTITUDE AND THAT'S A RECIPE FOR FAILURE. ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND WE CAN SEE IT IN EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY THAT IT HAS OCCURRED IN. WE SEE THE INVERSE RELATIONSHIP TO THREE NECESSARY INGREDIENTS TO MOVE AHEAD TECHNOLOGICALLY, TO MOVE AHEAD IN TERMS OF SPECIAL ENTERPRISE, IN TERMS OF HIRING AND LABOR AND THE INCREASE OF WHAT ADAM SMITH WOULD CALL THE WEALTH OF NATIONS. TYPICAL TO SEE THIS KIND OF REACTION. WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO KNOW BY NOW WHO'S AT -- EINSTEIN SAID THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY IS DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT. >> EXACTLY. AFTER TURNING THE COMMUNAL PROPERTY INTO PRIVATE PROPERTY, LETTING EVERY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES, BRADFORD, THE GOVERNOR AT THE TIME NOTED THE CHANGES IN THE BEHAVIOR AND SAID THESE HARD-WORKING COLONISTS TURNED PLYMOUTH COLONY INTO ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL COLONIES IN NORTH AMERICA. SUDDENLY WHEN PEOPLE COULD SEE REWARD FOR THEIR PERSONAL MOTIVATION. THIS IS INTERESTING. EARLY SETTLERS CAPTURED HIM AND SOLD HIM NO TO SLAVERY AND A GROUP OF CATHOLICS FREED HIM AND BROUGHT HIM TO ENGLAND WHERE HE LEARNED TO SPEAK ENGLISH AND SERVED AS AN INTERPRETER. HE WAS BROUGHT BACK TO THE NEW WORLD AND HE TAUGHT THE PILGRIMS TO PLANT, FISH AND BROKERED A PEACE TREATY. THERE YOU CAN SEE A SITUATION WHERE THE CHURCH'S STANCE AGAINST SLAVERY IN WHATEVER FORM WAS BEING LAID OUT. >> NO QUESTION. THE CHURCH HAD FOR CENTURIES BEEN AGAINST SLAVERY, ISSUING NO LESS THAN 10 DIFFERENT ENCYCLICALS AGAINST SLAVERY IN THE COLONIES, AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE, AGAINST THE NATIVES IN THE CANARY ISLANDS AND OF COURSE IN GENERAL ACROSS THE WORLD THAT INCLUDES THE ATTEMPT THE CHURCH MADE IN OTHER PLACES IN ORDER TO GET SLAVERY TO PUT IT TO AN END. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS BEEN IN THE FOREFRONT OF THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY INTERNATIONALLY. NO QUESTION. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> WE KEEP THAT IN OUR MIND WHILE WE HAVE THANKSGIVING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF WHICH, LIKE WISE TO ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD WATCHING ON EWTN ON WHATEVER PLATFORM YOU HAPPEN TO BE WATCHING ON. LET'S GET TO QUESTIONS. WE HAD A LOT GOING ON. SOME PEOPLE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THINGS WE HAVE SAID THE LAST FEW WEEKS. LET'S OWN UP TO THEM AND DEAL WITH THEM THE BEST WE CAN. >> SURE. >> FIRST IS ON ME. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, DOUG SAID ONE OF THE VISIONARIES OF FATIMA HAD AN AFFAIR AND RESULTED IN ABORTION AND SHE WOULD INTEND SPEND ETERNITY IN PURGATORY. LET ME BE CLEAR. THE PERSON BEING TALKED ABOUT WHO OUR BLESSED MOTHER MENTIONED, WHO THE VISIONARIES ASKED ABOUT WAS ANOTHER GIRL FROM THE AREA. SHE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS DISCUSSED, NOT LUCIA OR THE OTHER CHILDREN INVOLVED, NOT FRANCISCO. IT WAS ANOTHER PERSON, NOT ABOUT ONE OF THE VISIONARIES. SECOND OF ALL -- YOU CAN GO THROUGH THE EXPLANATION THAT ONE WOULD NEVER SPEND ETERNITY IN PURGATORY BUT UNTIL THE END OF TIME. THIS PERSON SAYS IF TRUE WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE MOTHERS OF ABORTED BABIES WHO REPENTED AND CONFESSED THEIR SIN WHEN THEY DIE LIKE THE VISIONARY OF FATIMA -- WHICH I DIDN'T SAY. IT WASN'T THE VISIONARY AND SECOND OF ALL IT SEEMS TO BE A MISUNDERSTANDING OF PURGATORY AND WHAT ITS FUNCTION IS. >> PURGATORY IS DEFINITELY TEMPORAL, NOT ETERNAL. YOU DIDN'T SAY IT WAS ETERNAL, DOUG. I'M NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED. THE END OF TIME, THAT IS A TEMPORAL OR FINITE MEASURE. IF PURGATORY WERE ETERNAL THAT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT MATTER BUT IT IS NOT. IT IS A TEMPORAL PERIOD AND ONCE THAT IS COMPLETED OF COURSE YOU MOVE ON TO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM. I DON'T THINK YOUR QUESTION FOLLOWS BECAUSE, OF COURSE, SINCE PURGATORY IS TEMPORAL, EVERYBODY WHO ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS FOR EVEN THE SIN OF ABORTION AND ASKS SINCERELY AND MAKES A FIRM PURPOSE OF AMENDMENT IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET INTO HEAVEN THROUGH THE MERCY OF CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD. >> THE SENSE YOU GET IS DEPENDING ON YOUR STATE IN LIFE WHEN YOU DIE THERE MAYBE LEVELS OF PURIFICATION ONE NEEDS TO GO THROUGH. SOME GO DIRECTLY AND SOME WOULD HAVE VERY LITTLE AND OTHERS, IN THIS CASE AT LEAST IN AN UNDERSTANDING FOR THE CHILDREN'S UNDERSTANDING, THIS WAS A PERSON WHO NEEDED GREATER PURIFICATION MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE SINS THEY COMMITTED IN THEIR LIFE. >> THAT'S CORRECT. THAT'S CORRECT. PROBABLY EASILY HAPPEN TO ME. I'M SURE I WILL HAVE SOME PURIFICATION REQUIRED. PEOPLE WHO KNOW ME WILL CERTAINLY VOUCH FOR THAT. IN ANY CASE, I HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS OUR STATE IN LIFE. WE OFTEN TIMES DO NOT DIE PERFECT OR CAPABLE OF PERFECT LOVE. SO WE NEED PURIFICATION AND THE LORD TAKES CARE OF THAT AND HELPS THAT TO OCCUR AND HELPS US ALONG THE WAY. WE HAVE TO LET GO OF WHAT WE ARE ATTACHED TO. THAT IS SOMETIMES CHALLENGING AND DIFFICULT. COULD BE EVEN PAINFUL. BUT AT THE END THERE'S HEAVEN AND THAT'S THE PROMISE OF JESUS CHRIST. >> RIGHT. ALSO I WOULD THINK AND I'D ASK YOU, OBVIOUSLY THE WHOLE IDEA OF TIME AND WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TIME IN PURGATORY? >> WELL, I MEAN THE ONLY THING WE CAN SAY IS THIS PHYSICAL TIME, ANOTHER KIND OF TIME? THERE IS SOME TEMPORALTY THERE BECAUSE IT IS NOT THE ETERNAL NOW. WE HAVE TO ASSUME THERE'S SOME TEMPORALTY BUT WHAT THAT SUCCESSION IS LIKE WE REALLY DO NOT KNOW. THERE'S NO -- IS IT PHYSICAL TIME IN THIS UNIVERSE? PROBABLY NOT. IS IT BEFORE AND AFTER, AN EARLIER, LATER SUCCESSION, PROBABLY SO. IT'S NOT AN ETERNAL NOW. THEREFORE, I'D HAVE TO SAY IT IS A TEMPORAL SUCCESSION BUT WHAT EXACTLY IT IS NONE OF US KNOWS. >> ABSOLUTELY. WE THANK YOU FOR THAT OPPORTUNITY TO CLARIFY AS WE WILL FOR ALL OF THE QUESTIONS THAT COME TO US. WE WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR SO THERE'S NO MISUNDERSTANDINGS. DEAR FATHER SPITZERS THERE ARE A LOT OF CALLS FOR EXCOMMUNICATION FOR CATHOLICS THAT PERFORM ABORTION. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THEY ARE REQUIRED TO ATTEND MASS ON SUNDAYS BUT NOT RECEIVE COMMUNION AND FOLLOW THE CHURCH. WE SHOULD PRAY FOR THEM AND HOPE THEY WILL RETURN TO FULL COMMUNION WITH THE CHURCH. IS MY UNDERSTANDING CORRECT? THIS IS CAROLINE. >> YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS PRETTY MUCH CORRECT. THAT'S WHY WE OUGHT TO KEEP PRAYING THAT THEY COME BACK AS YOU SAY IN THE FULL COMMUNION WITH THE CHURCH. THAT'S THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING AND THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD WANT TO HAVE HAPPEN. OF COURSE WITH FULL COMMUNION THERE'S NOT ONLY THEIR SALVATION BUT ALSO THEY WILL STOP UNDERMINING, AS IT WERE, THE MISSION OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH. >> VERY GOOD. NEXT UP, DEAR FATHER SPITZER ON A RECENT SHOW YOU MENTIONED ST. JOHN PAUL II MAY HAVE BEEN TOO TRUSTING IN SUPPORTING THEODORE McCARRICK TO HIS POSTING. SHOULDN'T CANDIDATES BE MORE CLOSELY VETTED BEFORE GIVEN TO A HIGH RANK SUCH AS WITH BISHOP? THIS IS RYAN. >> RYAN, HERE'S MY THOUGHT. THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH THE POP CAN KNOW PERSONALLY. AS I SAID, HE HAD VECTORS OF INFORMATION COMING IN. ONE VECTOR WAS SAYING WATCH OUT FOR THIS GUY. THERE ARE RUMORS. NOW, JOHN PAUL, YOU KNOW WHO'S JUST A WONDERFUL MAN, HAD TO GROW UP IN COMMUNIST POLAND WHERE RUMORS WERE FABRICATED ON A DAILY BASIS TO UNDERMINE ANYBODY IN THE CHURCH. SO, FIRST OF ALL, ST. JOHN PAUL WAS PRETTY MUCH SKEPTICAL, PRETTY MUCH NOT TRUSTING OF RUMORS. AND THAT'S HOW IT WAS CONTEXTUALIZED. THERE ARE RUMORS THIS GUY IS DOING THINGS AND I THINK HIS REACTION WAS THERE ARE RUMORS AND THEN THERE ARE RUMORS BUT HE DECIDED NOT TO APPOINT HIM AS CARDINAL. THEN SLIGHTLY LATER, MAYBE TWO WEEKS HAVE ELAPSED AND SOME BISHOPS CAME FORWARD AND SAID THIS GUY LOOKS LIKE HE IS PERFECTLY OKAY. THEN CAME THE CRESCENDO WHERE CARDINAL McCARRICK -- WELL AT THAT TIME ARCHBISHOP McCARRICK BASICALLY SAID I'M GOING TO SWEAR THAT ALL OF THESE ALLEGATIONS ARE COMPLETELY FALSE. HE GIVES JOHN PAUL SWORN TESTIMONY. JOHN PAUL ACTUALLY BELIEVED IT. I THINK HE REALLY DID. HE THOUGHT HE WAS A MAN OF HIS WORD. HE WOULDN'T SWEAR BEFORE GOD IF IT WERE FALSE. HE RESCINDED THE ORDER NOT TO APPOINT AND ACTUALLY LET THE APPOINTMENT GO THROUGH. YOU LOOK AT THAT AND GO WOULD WE HAVE MORE CAREFUL VETTING PROCEDURES TODAY? ABSOLUTELY. WOULD WE LOOK FOR EVIDENCE TODAY? ABSOLUTELY. WOULD WE INVESTIGATE THE RUMORS TO THE HILT TODAY YES, ABSOLUTELY. BUT IN THOSE DAYS IT WAS A MUCH MORE NAIVE PERIOD OF TIME. A SWORN STATEMENT FROM SOMEBODY SEEMED TO HAVE MEANT SOMETHING. THE WORDS OF THE OTHER BISHOPS SEEMED TO HAVE MEANT SOMETHING. JOHN -- AS I SAID, ST. JOHN PAUL KNEW A LOT OF RUMORS MEANT NOTHING. HE WENT IN THAT DIRECTION BUT IT WAS MUCH MORE INFORMAL. TODAY WE DO NOT HAVE ANY OF THOSE INFORMALITIES. WE ARE MUCH MORE FORMAL AND THOROUGH. >> RIGHT. ABSOLUTELY. WITH SOCIETY TODAY THERE USED TO BE SOME SENSE WHEN PEOPLE WERE CAUGHT IN A LIE OR FALSEHOOD THEY WOULD OWN UP TO IT. TODAY PEOPLE DON'T DO THAT. THEY DON'T FEEL ANY OBLIGATION TO NOT CONTINUE TO LIE AS IF SOMEHOW THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE. >> YEAH. I THINK THERE ARE SOME PERSONALITIES THAT ARE COMPULSIVE LIARS AND EVEN ONES THAT ARE PATHOLOGICAL LIARS. I'M NOT SURE WHETHER CARDINAL McCARRICK WAS IN THAT GROUP, BUT AT LEAST STRONG EVIDENCE THAT POINTS IN THAT DIRECTION THAT HE MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR. >> A SOCIOPATH IN HIS OWN WAY. >> NO, BUT I MEAN -- HE COULDN'T HELP HIMSELF. HE SORT SOLVE DONE IT ALL OF HIS LIFE AND YOU CAN SAY HOW COULD A CLERIC BE A COMPULSIVE LIAR? THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT IT. AS I SAID, IT WAS A MORE NAIVE PERIOD OF TIME, A MORE TRUSTING PERIOD OF TIME. YOU KNOW A LOT OF MISTAKES CAN AND WERE MADE. >> SOMETIMES IN THESE SITUATIONS PEOPLE HAVE CONVINCED THEMSELVES WHETHER IT IS A SOCIOPATH AND ALMOST EXCUSING OF WHATEVER THEY HAVE DONE WELL, IT WASN'T REALLY THAT. IT WAS REALLY LESS THAN THAT. IT'S NOT A PROBLEM. THEY CAN'T OWN UP TO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE. >> THE COMPULSIVE LIAR ABSOLUTELY DOES RATIONALIZE IT OFF AND MINIMIZE IT AND A VARIETY OTHER THINGS THAT GO THROUGH THEIR MIND. WE UNDERSTAND A LOT OF THAT NOW BECAUSE WE HAVE VERY GOOD STUDIES ON ADDICTIVE BEHAVIOR. SO WE KNOW DRUG ADDICTS, ALCOHOLICS, ET CETERA HAVE A SERIES OF RATIONALIZATIONS, INCLUDING SEXAHOLICS, I GUESS YOU WOULD CALL THEM, SEXUAL ADDICTS AND THEY USE THE SAME RATIONALIZATIONS. IT'S A DENIAL PROCESS. IT GOES THROUGH THE ACTIVATING SYSTEM AND BECOMES COMPULSIVE AT SOME STAGES WHERE THE LIE IS COMING OUT OF THEIR MOUTH BEFORE THERE IS ANY REFLECTIVITY GOING ON. THESE ARE THE THINGS WE DEAL. NOW TODAY, WE HAVE A MUCH BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THIS THAN WE DID BACK THEN. >> WE SHOULD ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT SURROUNDED HIM AND MAY STILL BE AROUND AND MAY HAVE HAD BETTER INSIGHTS TO HIS PERSONALITY THAN THOSE ABOVE WHO DIDN'T HAVE A GREAT VIEW. I'LL JUST SAY THAT. >> HAVE TO ANSWER TO THE LORD. >> LET ME ASK YOU THE QUESTION. I HATE TO VEER OFF BUT SOMETIMES WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS AND MEN OF THE CLOTH, LET'S SAY, WHO YOU WOULD THINK HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR LORD, THEY ARE DEDICATED, ET CETERA, DO THESE THINGS THAT SEEM TO BE BLATANTLY WRONG AND IMMORAL AND YOU SAY TO YOURSELF, HOW COULD THEY DO THIS KNOWING THEY ARE GOING TO FACE THE LORD? IS IT THEY JUST DON'T BELIEVE THEY REALLY WILL HAVE TO FACE THE LORD OR WHAT? >> IT IS HARD TO KNOW BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE TO GET INTO THE OTHER PERSON'S MIND. I KNOW THERE ARE SOME PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILES OF ADDICTS THAT COULD PROVIDE INSIGHT. YOU KNOW, OF COURSE I WILL THE STATE OF WHAT IS CALLED COMPARTMENTALIZATION IS WHAT TAKES PLACE. FOR EXAMPLE, IN AN ALCOHOLIC, THEY COMPARTMENTALIZE WHAT IS GOING ON IN THEIR FAMILY AND PUT IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPARTMENT WHAT THEY ARE DOING WITH HAVING 20 DRINKS BEFORE THEY COME HOME. THEY ARE NOT MAKING THESE ASSOCIATIONS BETWEEN THOSE COMPARTMENTS. WHAT WINDS UP HAPPENING IS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF ASSOCIATION, WHICH IS PART OF THE WHOLE NEGATIVE SCREENING PROCESS THAT GOES ON THROUGH THE RETICULAR ACTIVATING SYSTEM, BASICALLY THEY WIND UP NOT REALLY THINKING ABOUT IT. THAT'S THE BEST WAY OF PUTTING IT. IN A WAY -- NOW, TODAY THERE ARE PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTS THAT CAN PROGRAM FOR THAT SORT OF BEHAVIOR. THEY ARE DESIGNED TO CATCH PEOPLE UP TO SEE IF THEY ARE IN STATES OF DENIAL OR, YOU KNOW THEY ARE LYING BUT THEY ASK THE SAME QUESTION A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS AND SO FORTH AND SO ON TO TRY TO GET UNDER THE FACT IS THIS PERSON REALLY LYING ABOUT THINGS OR INCLINED TO LIE IN GENERAL, INCLINED TO COMPARTMENTALIZE DATA, TO BE NON-ASSOCIATIVE WITH DATA AND SO FORTH AND SO ON AND IF THEY DO THOSE THINGS, THAN FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES IT'S A REAL WARNING FLAG, DO NOT LET THAT PERSON ENTER. I CAN TELL YOU WHEN I ENTERED THE SOCIETY OF JESUS IN 1974, WE DID HAVE A BATTERY OF PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAMS. NOW, THIS IS IN '74. THEY WERE ALL KINDS OF EXAMS, RIGHT, THE MINNESOTA MULTIPHASE PERSONALITY INVENTORY, AN ARTISTIC EXAM, A FILL IN THE BLANK EXAM, A BUNCH OF THEM. YOU HAD A PSYCHOLOGIST THAT WAS READING ALL OF THESE AND TRYING TO DIAGNOSE BOTH THE PERSONALITY THE INCLINATIONS, ET CETERA. NOW, PRIOR TO -- I THINK MAYBE PRIOR TO 1970, WE WERE NOT GIVING ANY PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAM LIKE THAT. TODAY, THAT PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAMS ARE BETTER, MORE PROFICIENT, THE PSYCHOLOGICAL INTERVIEW IS BETTER, ET CETERA. IN '74, I THINK THE SOCIETY OF JESUS WAS AHEAD OF THE GAME AT THAT TIME AND DID HAVE THOSE PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAMS. EVENTUALLY THINGS CAUGHT UP WITH IT. THERE WAS A FALSE BELIEF RELATIVE TO PEOPLE WHO WERE ABUSERS, A FALSE BELIEF THAT WAS REALLY A CURABLE PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER. IN POINT OF FACT, IT'S REALLY NOT A CURABLE PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER AND I WAS ACTUALLY ATTENDING A LECTURE GIVEN TO US WHEN I WAS TEACHING IN GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY IN 1988. WE HAD A LECTURE THAT WE WERE REQUIRED TO GO TO WHERE WE WERE TOLD BY A PSYCHOLOGIST, YEAH, THIS IS A CURABLE DISORDER. JUST GET THEM OVER TO THIS CLINIC AND THIS THING CAN BE REVERSED. SO FORTH AND SO ON. OF COURSE, THAT WAS WRONG INFORMATION. WE HAVE LEARNED A LOT. NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. THE CHURCH CERTAINLY HAS MADE ITS FAIR SHARE OF MISTAKES AND TODAY I THINK WE ARE FAR -- ESPECIALLY AFTER 2002 WHICH WAS THE DALLAS CHARTER WENT THROUGH. SINCE THAT TIME WE HAVE BEEN VERY CIRCUMSPECT, VERY MUCH LOOKING FOR OUTSIDE SOURCES TO JUDGE BEHAVIOR. THE REPORTING OF BEHAVIOR TO CRIMINAL AUTHORITIES, ET CETERA. IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME TODAY, BUT YEAH, THERE WAS A GOOD DEAL OF NAIVETY AND IGNORANCE AND THAT JUST WAS THE CONDITION. PRIOR TO '70 WHERE YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAM, THE TESTS FOR THESE THINGS, OH, MAN, IT WAS A SET UP FOR PROBLEMS TO HAPPEN ON A GRAND SCALE. OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE THING OF SHOULD YOU BE LOYAL TO PEOPLE IN THE PRIESTHOOD OR TRY TO GET THEM THERAPY. >> UNDERSTANDING WHAT PEOPLE MEAN BY CLERICALISM WHERE THERE IS A PROTECTION OF THE CLASS SO TO SPEAK. ANOTHER QUESTION. THIS ONE THEY GOT AROUND TO. LOOKING FOR YOU TO EXPAND ON A GREAT ANSWER YOU GAVE THE LAST TIME. DURING A RECENT DISCUSSION YOU HAD ON BIRTH CONTROL I CAN YOU DID NOT CLARIFY THERE IS SOMETHING IN BIRTH CONTROL PILLS THAT CAUSES THE LINING OF THE UTERUS TO BE THIN AND THEREFORE UNABLE TO ALLOW A FERTILIZED EGG TO IMPLANT INTO A UTERUS. PLEASE CLARIFY THIS SO PEOPLE ARE INFORMED, JOAN. >> OKAY. THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF BIRTH CONTROL. THANK YOU FOR THE CLARIFICATION THERE. ONE IS KIND OF WHAT'S CALLED A PREVENTION OF CONCEPTION. THAT IS A BIRTH CONTROL PILL THAT IS DESIGNED TO PREVENT CONCEPTION FROM OCCURRING. THERE'S ANOTHER KIND OF BIRTH CONTROL PILL THAT IS REALLY AN ABORTIVE, WHICH ACTUALLY AFTER CONCEPTION OCCURS. IT'S DESIGNED TO CAUSE THE CONCEPTION TO BE -- WELL, TO NOT ATTACH OR TO CAUSE THE CONCEIVED FETUS TO BE MISCARRIED ESSENTIALLY. THAT WOULD BE AN ABORTIVE AND IT IS THE KILLING OF A CHILD BECAUSE WE BELIEVE FROM THE POINT OF FERTILIZATION THERE IS NO QUESTION A REAL HUMAN BEING THERE WITH A UNIQUE HUMAN GENOME, UNIQUE GENOME IF NOT KILLED WILL BE BROUGHT TO CONCEPTION AS A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING. >> ANOTHER QUESTION. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, YOU RECENTLY STATED THE CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT LIMBO IS A CHURCH DOCTRINE. MAYBE THIS IS WHY PARENTS NO LONGER SEEM IN A RUSH TO BAPTIZE THEIR INFANTS WAITING A YEAR OR MORE. WE TALKED A LITTLE ABOUT THIS, NOT ABOUT WAITING A YEAR OR MORE. SHOULD NOT INFANTS BE BAPTIZED RIGHT AWAY? >> I THOUGHT FOR MYSELF IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE USED TOCK, LET'S SAY WHEN I WAS BORN THERE WAS A SENSE YOU SHOULD BE BAPTIZED WITHIN A WEEK OR SOMETHING A QUICK TURN AROUND TO THE POINT WHERE CHILDREN WERE BAPTIZED WHEN MOM WAS IN THE HOSPITAL SO TO SPEAK. AND THAT'S ONE REASON THEY HAD GOD PARENTS THERE. OBVIOUSLY THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THAT RUSH BUT CERTAINLY NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT A YEAR. GO AHEAD. >> NO. YOU ARE RIGHT. WHEN THE BAPTISM OCCURS IS WHEN THE GRACES HAPPEN. I'M VERY MUCH AND ADVOCATE OF GENUINE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES FOR CHILDREN, EVEN LITTLE CHILDREN. I'M ONE OF THE ONES THAT HAD MY OWN LITTLE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES IN THE CHURCH. IT WASN'T VISIONS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT BUT A REAL SENSE OF GOD'S LOVE AND THE SACRED AND THE HOLY AND PULLED IN A GENUINE LOVE EVEN IN FIRST GRADE, THINGS OF THAT NATURE. I REMEMBER ALMOST PALPABLY. YES, I THINK THE QUICKER WE GET THEM BAPTIZED THE BETTER FOR THE FULL GRACES OF THE SACRAMENT. THE OTHER THING THOUGH IS EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE A REAL NOTION OF LIMBO AS A DOCTRINE TODAY THERE IS STILL A SENSE OF URGENCY. YOU WANT YOUR CHILD TO BE BROUGHT INTO THE MYSTICAL BODY AND HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND YOU WANT THEM TO START THAT SENSE OF INSPIRATION, THAT PROTECTION AND GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT IS EVEN THERE PRESENT. AS THIS OCCURS YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT EFFECTS THOSE GRACES CAN HAVE IN THAT CHILD BECAUSE THE CHILD DOESN'T REFLECT ON IT AT THAT MOMENT OR HAVE A SENSE AT THIS MOMENT OR A WORD TO IDENTIFY, THAT'S HOLINESS OR GOD LOVES ME AT THIS MOMENT. THE GRACE IS STILL ACTIVE. OF COURSE GET THOSE BABIES BAPTIZED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT TO PREVENT THEM FROM GOING INTO LIMBO. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THEM BAPTIZED AND THEY DIE AND YOUR INTENTION WAS TO HAVE THEM BAPTIZED, AND THEY DIED BEFORE BAPTISM, OF COURSE GOD -- THEY ARE INNOCENT. GOD IS GOING TO BRING THEM INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. >> LET'S GET THE RIGHT CONSECRATION GOING ON SO WE DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS LATER. MUCH MORE WITH FATHER SPITZER AS WE CONTINUE OUR QUESTIONS AFTER THIS QUICK BREAK. STAY WITH US. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >>> WELCOME BACK TO "FATHER SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" WHERE WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT A TOPIC THAT'S BASED ON FATHER'S LATEST BOOK. LET ME MAKE A PITCH FOR IT, CHRIST VS. SATAN IN OUR DAILY LIVES: THE COSMIC STRUGGLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. THAT'S WHAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH AND WILL BE THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AS WE MOVE AHEAD THROUGH THANKSGIVING INTO THE ADVENT SEASON. LET'S GET TO OTHER QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR CLARIFICATION OR FURTHER EXPLANATION. DEAR FATHER SPITZER, YOU RECENTLY CATEGORIZED ORGAN TRANSPLANTS AS EXTRAORDINARY PROCEDURES THAT A PERSON NEED NOT ENDURE. AS KIDNEY RECIPIENT OF 31 YEARS WITH A TEENAGER DAUGHTER WHO IS A LIVER RECIPIENT, I'D LIKE TO SAY THESE ARE NO MORE EXTRAORDINARY THAN OTHER MAJOR SURGERIES AND HAVE A BETTER THAN 90% SUCCESS RATE. THE REAL ISSUE REGARDING TRANSPLANT NATION IS THE LACK OF DONORS. IT IS A PRO-LIFE CAUSE AND HOPES OF INCREASING DONORS WE HAVE A SAYING, DON'T TAKE YOUR ORGANS TO HEAVEN. HEAVEN KNOWS WE NEED THEM HERE. >> I'M IN YOUR CAMP. I BELIEVE ORGAN DONATION IS FINE. I HAVE MY ORGAN DONOR CARD. THERE'S NO QUESTION. I DON'T WANT MY ORGANS BEING TAKEN TO HEAVEN EITHER. OF COURSE MY EYES MIGHT BE INTERESTED FOR SCIENCE, BUT NOT FOR MEDICAL PURPOSES BUT EVERYTHING IS AVAILABLE. I'M OKAY WITH IT BUT NOBODY HAS TO DO IT, WALTER. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT GOING TO MANDATE THAT ANYBODY MUST DO IT. THAT'S MY POINT. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO IT. IT WOULD BE GOOD, IN MY OPINION, IF YOU DID DO IT, BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARY TO DO IT. IT'S A VIRTUOUS ACT IN MY OPINION, IF YOU WANT TO GENEROUSLY GIVE THIS OVER SO SOMEBODY ELSE CAN HAVE LIFE OR SOMEBODY ELSE CAN HAVE A WELL-FUNCTIONING KIDNEY OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE. AT THE SAME TIME, THERE'S NO NECESSITY FOR IT. THAT WAS MY POINT. I THINK ACTUALLY YOU PICKED UP MY POINT. I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY POSITION ON THAT. I THINK IT IS A GREAT THING BUT NOT NECESSARY AND THE CHURCH HAS TAUGHT VERY CORRECTLY IN THIS REGARD. >> AS YOU INDICATED, IT'S A QUESTION OF IS THIS SOMETHING YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO DO LIKE PROVIDING WATER AND NOURISHMENT TO SOMEBODY AT THE END OF LIFE OR A SITUATION LIKE THAT. THIS WOULD BE GOING BEYOND THAT TO EXTRAORDINARY MEANS. >> RIGHT. EXACTLY. A PERSON, BY THE WAY, DOES NOT HAVE TO TAKE AN ORGAN TRANSPLANT. I THINK THAT IS WHAT I WAS PROBABLY TALKING ABOUT. NOT TALKING ABOUT GIVING ONE. I WAS TALKING ABOUT TAKING. >> YOU WERE. >> TAKING AN ORGAN. FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE AN ORGAN EITHER. THAT WOULD BE VIEWED AS AN EXTRAORDINARY MEANS. >> EXACTLY. >> VERY GOOD. UP NEXT, DEAR FATHER SPITZER. HERE'S ANOTHER ONE. IN A RECENT PROGRAM THERE IS A QUESTION RELATED TO DIVORCE AND THE WORTHY RECEPTION OF COMMUNION. ACCORDING TO THE CATECHISM, DIVORCE IS A GRAVE OFFENSE AGAINST THE NATURAL LAW. WOULD NOT DIVORCE BE A SERIOUS MORTAL SIN FOR THE PERSON WHO INITIATES THE DIVORCE AND REQUIRE ABSOLUTION? I GUESS THE QUESTION IS THERE IS ADDITIONAL STIPULATION HE PUT ON THE END OF THAT, WHY DON'T WE TALK ABOUT THAT CONCEPT? >> DIVORCE, IN ITSELF, IS -- EVEN THE INITIATION OF A DIVORCE IS NOT NECESSARILY A SIN. NOW, IT'S THE DIVORCE AND THE REMARRY PART BEFORE THAT MARRIAGE HAS BEEN ANNULLED, THAT'S THE PROBLEMATIC CONDITION. NOW, IF YOU INITIATED A DIVORCE IN ORDER FOR YOU TO GET FREE FROM SOMEBODY YOU HAD A PERSONAL CONFLICT WITH, WELL, THAT WOULDN'T BE A GOOD THING. THAT COULD BE BORDERLINE SINFUL IF YOU DID THAT AS IT WERE FOR A MALICIOUS PURPOSE OR PURPOSE OF PAYING SOMEBODY BACK. >> ABANDONING YOUR CHILDREN. >> EXACTLY. THEN YOU WOULD WANT TO GO TO CONFESSION. THAT WOULD NOT BE GOOD. THAT WOULD BE SINFUL TO DO THAT. IF, FOR EXAMPLE, AS IS THE CASE WITH MOST DIVORCES, THERE'S A SITUATION OF INCOMPATIBILITY -- MAYBE NOT MOST DIVORCES BUT A LOT OF DIVORCES WHERE THERE IS A SITUATION OF INCOMPATIBILITY TO THE POINT WHERE A PERSON IS TRULY TORMENTED OR PHYSICALLY ABUSED OR PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND VERBALLY ABUSED ON A CONTINUAL BASIS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. WHEN THESE THINGS ARE OCCURRING, YOU CAN GET A DIVORCE WITHOUT IT BEING A SIN. THE CHURCH AND JESUS CHRIST IS NOT ASKING THAT PEOPLE REMAIN IN A POSITION WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO BE ABUSED ON A DAILY BASIS. THAT'S NOT A SIN. DIVORCE IS NOT A SIN. THE CHURCH TEACHES THAT DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE WITHOUT AN ANNULMENT IS SINFUL, FOR SURE. SOMETIMES A DIVORCE CAN BE SINFUL IF IT IS DONE TO DO SOMETHING THAT IS IN ITSELF SINFUL, ABANDONING CHILDREN OR GETTING FREE FROM A SPOUSE THAT YOU HAVE BECOME BORED WITH OR WHATEVER. SOME CAVALIER THING WHERE YOU BREAK UP THE FAMILY AND THE RELATIONSHIP FOR NO GOOD REASON. BUT GENERALLY, IF THERE IS A CONDITION OF ABUSE, A CONDITION OF -- EVEN VERBAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE ON AN ONGOING BASIS, YOU ARE NOT EXPECTED TO ENDURE THAT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. YOU CAN GET SOME PEACE OR RELIEF FROM IT. >> I REMEMBER YEARS AGO, IT USED TO BE THOUGHT OF -- WELL, CATHOLICS DON'T GET DIVORCED. THEY USED TO HAVE SOMETHING CALLED A SEPARATION. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT WAS A DIVORCE WITH ANOTHER NAME OR WHAT SPECIFICALLY THAT WAS BUT I DO REMEMBER THE TERM. >> YEAH. A SEPARATION, YOU KNOW, IS GENERALLY -- IT'S A GOOD FIRST STEP. PERHAPS YOU HAVE A VERBALLY ABUSIVE SITUATION. THE FIRST THING TO DO IS TO GET A SEPARATION TO SEE IF THAT PERSON -- LET'S SUPPOSE THERE WAS AN ABUSING SPOUSE -- TO SEE IF THAT PERSON WILL TURN THEIR LIVES AROUND, STOP ABUSING THE OTHER SPOUSE, ET CETERA. YOU DON'T WANT TO LEGALIZE THE SEPARATION. YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE A COURT RULING ON THE SEPARATION UNTIL YOU ARE PRETTY SURE THAT PERSON IS JUST NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO TURN AROUND. IF IT BECOMES CLEAR -- FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TRIED TO GET THERAPY FOR THE PERSON AND THEY JUST SAY I'M NOT INTERESTED THIS THERAPY. OR YOU MEET WITH THE PERSON AGAIN AND THEY GO I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG AND I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE ONE SINGLE THING AND AS OFTEN HAPPENS -- BELIEVE ME, AS PRIESTS WE CAN SEE A LOT OF THESE SITUATIONS GOING ON WHERE SOMEBODY IS CLEARLY ALMOST OPPRESSIVELY ABUSIVE. THEY CLAIM WE'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG. WELL, AFTER A WHILE IT BECOMES INCUMBENT ON THE PERSON TO MAYBE TAKE A STRONGER ACTION. AT THAT POINT, WHERE YOU DON'T WANT THE PERSON TO HAVE RECOURSE TO YOUR HOUSE ANYMORE. YOU REALLY WANT PROTECTION OF THE LAW BECAUSE YOU ARE AFRAID THEY ARE GOING TO COME OVER, EITHER HIT THE KIDS OR HIT YOU, THINGS OF THAT NATURE, ONCE THAT BEGINS TO HAPPEN, THEN IT IS BEST TO GET THE COURT TO MAKE A PROCLAMATION, SIMPLY A RULING THAT SIMPLY SAYS THIS PERSON CAN NO LONGER COME OVER. YOU HAVE YOUR OWN AUTONOMY. THEY DO NOT HAVE FREE ACCESS TO THE KIDS BUT THEY WILL ABIDE BY WHAT THE COURT RULES ON IT. I THINK, IN A WAY, NOTHING IS PERFECT. THE COURTS WON'T KNOW ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY BUT GENERALLY, YOU ARE RIGHT, DOUG, A SEPARATION PRIOR TO DIVORCE IS ALWAYS A RECOMMENDED THING BECAUSE, OF COURSE, ONCE THE DIVORCE HAPPENS THE LEGAL RULING IS THERE IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO RECONNECT. >> RECONCILIATION IS THAT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT. THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE WONDERFUL THINGS LIKE MARRIAGE ENCOUNTER TO HELP MARRIED COUPLES AND RETRO LIFE FOR THOSE WHERE THERE IS SEVERE DAMAGE IN THE RELATIONSHIP, AS WELL. BOTH THINGS YOU CAN CHECK OUT ON THE WEB AND CHECK OUT IF YOU ARE INTERESTED. LET'S MOVE TO YOUR BOOK HERE. YOUR NEW BOOK IS OUT. I'M ASSUMING IT IS SELLING LIKE HOT CAKES. IS THAT CORRECT? >> I THINK IT IS PROBABLY DOING OKAY, THANKS TO THE GOOD COVERAGE I'M GETTING ON EWTN. >> THERE YOU GO. I HEARD YOU ON THE RADIO WITH TERESA YESTERDAY TALKING ABOUT IT. >> THAT'S RIGHT. SHE'S GREAT. SHE GAVE ME A NICE, LONG INTERVIEW AND I PROBABLY TURNED EVERYBODY'S EARS INTO HAMBURGER. >> I DOUBT IT. I THINK YOU TURNED EVERYBODY'S EAR TO WANT TO READ THE BOOK. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK. THE SECTION CHRIST VERSUS SATAN IN OUR DAILY LIVES YOU SAY THE MORE WE KNOW ABOUT THE MORAL TEACHING OF JESUS AND THE MORE WE WILL UNDERSTAND OURSELVES, OUR TRUE DIGNITY, OUR DESTINY. THE MORE WE UNDERSTAND IN THE MORE WE CAN ACT TO BE RESTORE THE FREEDOM OF CHRIST WITHIN THE DICTATORSHIP OF MORAL RELATIVISM. WHY IS THAT THE CASE? >> SOMETIMES WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CHURCH'S MORAL TEACHING -- AND WE KNOW THE 12 BASIC CONTROVERSIAL DOCTRINES THAT THE CHURCH HAS TAUGHT AND PEOPLE -- THE POPULAR CULTURE DOES NOT ABIDE, RIGHT? THAT WOULD BE, FOR EXAMPLE, NOT JUST ABORTION OR PHYSICIAN-ASSISTED SUICIDE, EUTHANASIA, THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT ALSO THE CHURCH IS TEACHING ON PREMARITAL SEX AND EXTRAMARITAL SEX, HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE, PORNOGRAPHY, GENDER CHANGE, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. THESE ISSUES DO PRODUCE A REACTION FROM THE POPULAR CULTURE. SOMETIMES WE WILL SIT DOWN AND STUDY THE MORAL TEACHING FIRST. INSTEAD WHAT WE WIND UP DOING IS LOOK AT POPULAR CULTURE'S VIEW AND BECAUSE OF THE FORCE OF SOCIAL NORMING AND THAT MEANS WE ARE ORIENTING OUR MORAL LIVES TOWARD THE PERCEIVED MAIN STREAM. THIS IS THE WAY SO MANY PEOPLE MAKE THEIR MORAL DECISIONS TODAY. THEY GO WHERE'S THE MAINSTREAM OF THE CULTURE? WHERE'S IT GOING? THEY DON'T ASK WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG. THEY ARE ASSUMING IT'S RIGHT AND AIM TOWARD IT. THIS HAS BEEN KNOWN -- BY THE WAY, THE NOTION OF SOCIAL NORMING HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED SINCE THE '60s. WHAT HAPPENED IS PEOPLE JUST KNEE JERK SAY, WELL, THE CHURCH IS WRONG ON THIS ONE. THE CHURCH IS OUT OF STEP ON THIS ONE. THE CHURCH THIS AND THAT. THAT IS WRONG-GO-BONG-GO. WE NEED TO ASK THE OBJECTIVE QUESTION, IS THIS RIGHT OR WRONG? I WROTE A THIRD VOLUME OF THE TRILOGY, WHICH IS NOT OUT YET BUT WILL BE NEXT YEAR. THE THIRD VOLUME TAKES THOSE 12 ISSUES AND GOES THROUGH AND SAYS, OKAY. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE VIOLATE THESE NORMS THAT YOU SAY ARE SO OUT OF STEP FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND JESUS. LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM -- THESE ARE SECULAR STUDIES THAT ARE BEING DONE, NOT CHURCH STUDIES. BUT THE SECULAR STUDIES WILL SHOW THAT WHAT HAPPENS IS, NUMBER ONE, A HUGE INCREASE IN DEPRESSION. HUGE INCREASE IN ANXIETY. AND A HUGE INCREASE IN SUICIDES AND A HUGE INCREASE IN AGGRESSIVITY IN THE LIFESTYLE. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. THOSE FOUR THINGS HAPPEN IN ALL OF THE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A LITTLE BIT OF AN INCREASE LIKE A 20% INCREASE. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOUBLING AND TRIPLING. IN THE CASE OF SOME LIFESTYLES, FOR EXAMPLE. IN HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLES, SUICIDES, EVEN IN TOLERANT COUNTRIES LIKE THE NETHERLANDS INCREASE BY 5.3 TIMES. 5.3 TIMES. YOU LOOK AT THAT AND GO THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. THE SECOND THING TO NOTICE IS WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH NUMBER OF PREMARITAL PARTNERS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE, YOU LOOK AT THAT AND THERE'S AN INVERSE PROPORTION BETWEEN THE NUMBER OF PRE-MARITAL PARTNERS ON THE ONE HAND. ON THE OTHER HAND A DECREASE IN THE LONGEVITY OF THE MARRIAGE, A DECREASE IN MARITAL SATISFACTION DURING THE MARRIAGE AND DECREASE IN MONOGAMY DURING THE MARRIAGE. THIS IS LIKE IT'S THERE IN THE STUDIES. YOU LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING? IT IS UNDERMINING MARRIAGE AND FAMILY. SO YOU START TO DO THESE THINGS. IN EIGHT OUT OF THE 12 ISSUES I DEAL WITH, THERE'S A TRUE, DOCUMENTED, UNDERLYING MARRIAGE AND FAMILY. THAT'S ANOTHER THING. THE THIRD THING THAT'S GOING ON IS DO THESE THINGS HAVE CULTURAL EFFECTS? HECK, IF YOU HAVE A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE IN THE CULTURE THAT ARE DEPRESSED AND ANXIOUS, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, TRIPLING AND QUADRUPLING AND SUICIDES CAN BE ANYWHERE FROM THREE TIMES HIGHER TO FIVE TIMES HIGHER, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. YOU START TO LOOK AT THESE THINGS AND YOU START TO SAY, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE. THIS IS REALLY EFFECTING THE INDIVIDUALS IN OUR CULTURE. IT'S NOT JUST THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE SUFFERING MALAISE AND DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE. THE CULTURE COLLECTIVELY IS SUFFERING IT BECAUSE, OF COURSE, PEOPLE TALK. THEY GET TOGETHER. WHEN THEY START TO LOOK AT THIS THING, THE MALAISE BECOMES, AS IT WERE, A CULTURAL MALL LAID. CULTURAL MALL LAZE IS NOT GOOD FOR CULTURAL COHESION AND HARMONY. IT CAUSES DIVISION WITHIN THE SELF AND THE DIVISION WITHIN THE SELF TURNS INTO A DIVISION IN THE FAMILY AND MARRIAGE. IT IS UNDERMINING MARRIAGE AND FAMILY IN SO MANY DIFFERENT RESPECTS, WHICH I DOCUMENT IN GOOD, SECULAR STUDIES AND SURVEYS. AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE UNDERMINING OF MARRIAGE AND FAMILY, THE UNDERMINING OF THE INDIVIDUAL, THE MALAISE. YOU ARE LOOKING AT DIVISION UNLESS THE CULTURE, LACK OF PEACE, LACK OF RESPECT. IF YOU ARE IN A STATE OF MALAISE, DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY YOU THINK YOU WILL BE NICE TO THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU? OF COURSE AGGRESSIVITY. WE DON'T HAVE TO MEASURE THIS. OF COURSE IT WILL COME WITH THE DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY PACKAGE. WE PUT ALL OF THESE THINGS TOGETHER AND WHAT DO WE HAVE? IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW THE CHURCH'S TEACHING, YOU ARE GOING TO SEE A HUGE INCREASE IN DEPRESSION, ANXIETY, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, SUICIDES, AGGRESSIVITY AND THEN YOU'LL SEE MARRIAGE AND FAMILY UNDERMINED. BY THE WAY, THE DIVORCE RATE HAS SHOT UP SINCE THE '60s BY A FACTOR OF FOUR TIMES THE DIVORCE RATE. THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR FAMILIES. IT'S NOT GOOD FOR CHILDREN WHO ARE NOW SPLIT BETWEEN TWO PARENTS. THIS IS BAD. TERRIBLE. OF COURSE, EXTRAMARITAL AFFAIRS, NON-MONOGAMY, ALL THE BETRAYAL AND ANXIETY AND THEN THE SOCIAL, THE LACK OF SOCIAL COHESION, YOU PUT THAT TOGETHER AND IT'S JUST A RECIPE FOR THE ENTIRE CULTURE, LITERALLY, TO IMPLODE, NOT JUST PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND SOCIAL LOGICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY BUT TO IMPLODE ON THE LEVEL OF ACTUALLY -- WELL, SOCIAL DISSENT AND INTERNAL DISHARMONY ITSELF. IN OTHER WORDS, PEOPLE LITERALLY GOING OUT AND BEING AGGRESSIVE TOWARD OTHER PEOPLE. THIS IS BAD NEWS. THIS IS VERY BAD NEWS. ALL I CAN SAY IS THOSE 12 ISSUES THAT THE CHURCH HAS STALWARTLY TAUGHT, EVEN AGAINST THE PRESSURES OF POPULAR CULTURE, WHICH I BELIEVE, AS I REFLECT ON THE TITLE OF THE BOOK IS CAUSED BY SATAN. HE'S DONE A MAGNIFICENT PREPARATORY WORK SINCE THE 1960s, THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION, ABORTION, EVERYTHING ELSE. HE HAS DONE A MAGNIFICENT JOB. OF COURSE THE CHURCH HAS BEEN STANDING UP. THEY ARE TAKING THE ABUSE, TEACHING THE TRUTH AND TAKING THE ABUSE FOR IT. THE SOCIAL NORMING PROCESS HAS BEEN GRINDING AWAY AND GRINDING AWAY AND KIDS BELIEVE IN THE SOCIAL NORMING PROCESS SO DEEPLY. WHATEVER THE MAIN STREAM IS, THAT'S WHAT IS NORMAL PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE MAINSTREAM ARE NOT NORMAL. BUT PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE MAINSTREAM MAYBE GOOD AND SOCIAL NORMING MAY BE EVIL. DOES SOMEBODY WANT TO ASK THIS QUESTION? DOES SOMEBODY WANT TO ASK WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOCIAL DISHARMONY, TO MARRIAGE AND FAMILY. I'M A LITTLE ADAMANT HERE BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU, IT'S A TRAVESTY. THE CHURCH HAS TAUGHT THE TRUTH. IT HAS TAUGHT GOODNESS. IT HAS STOOD UP AND TAKEN THE HIT TIME AFTER TIME. IF WE KEEP DOING THIS, THOUGH -- I'M TRYING IN THE THIRD VOLUME OF THE TRILOGY TO PUT IT OUT THERE. SHARE THE BAD NEWS. I HATE TO SAY IT, OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T FOLLOW THE CHURCH'S TEACHING. IF WE DON'T SHARE THE BAD NEWS OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T FOLLOW THE CHURCH'S TEACHING, WE'RE NOT GOING TO COMBAT MORAL RELATIVISM. IT IS ONE THING TO INSIST ON IT. WE TALK ABOUT IT POSITIVELY. I DECIDE I WILL TALK ABOUT THE BEAUTY OF THE CHURCH'S TEACHING AND HOW IT SUPPORTS COVENANT LOVE AND WHY IT SUPPORTS RESPECT AND LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER, SOCIAL COHESION AND HARMONY BUT ALSO THE BAD NEWS. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T LISTEN TO CHRIST AND THE CHURCH'S TEACHING AND OF COURSE THE BAD NEWS SCENARIO IS SO SIGNIFICANT. I THINK IT MAY UNDERMINE THE COUNTRY AND THE CULTURE ITSELF, NOT JUST THE U.S. BUT IN MANY WESTERN CULTURES. I THINK THIS IS -- I THINK SATAN IS VERY MUCH RESPONSIBLE AND WE JUST HAVE TO WAKE UP TO THE SOCIAL NORMING PROCESS AND CALL IT FOR WHAT IT IS. IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY ANALYTICAL -- NOTHING TO DO WITH GOOD OR EVIL, IT IS JUST NORMING OURSELVES TO THE MAINSTREAM, EVEN IF THE MAINSTREAM IS TOTALLY WRONG, TOTALLY EVIL. WE ARE THERE LIKE A BUNCH OF LEMMINGS GOING OFF THE CLIFF. WE HAVE TO STOP IT. THE SOCIAL MEDIA IS PROMOTING SOCIAL NORMING IN A MAJOR WAY. KIDS GET ALIENATED FROM THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SOCIAL NORM. >> THAT'S WHERE YOU GET THE TRANSGENDERRISM STUFF POPPING UP. >> I HAVE A WHOLE SECTION OF IT IN VOLUME THREE. OH, YEAH. WE HAVE TO CALL IT LIKE IT IS AND BRING OUT THE STUDIES AND JUST TELL PEOPLE. >> WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT? THEY DON'T WANT TO READ THE STUDIES UNLESS THEY AGREE WITH WHAT THEY ALREADY THINK. >> LET ME ASK YOU, TO SOME DEGREE, WE HAD WITHIN THE LAST WEEK OR SO, WE HAD ONE OF MATTHEW'S READINGS OF THE BEATITUDES AND SOMETIMES IT FEELS LIKE IT IS HELPING POOR PEOPLE AND VISITING PEOPLE IN PRISON. THAT'S WHAT JESUS REALLY CARES ABOUT. THAT'S WHAT HE SAID. YOU SEE ME. >> JESUS DID CARE ABOUT THAT. >> BUT SO WE -- THAT'S WHAT IT IS ABOUT. THESE OTHER KIND OF MORALITY THINGS HAVING TO DO WITH SEXUALITY AND STUFF DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THOSE WERE THAT IMPORTANT TO OUR LORD. CERTAINLY DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY THAT THAT IS WHERE THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH'S FOCUS IS. >> YEAH. WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S OF COURSE THE GENERALIZATION FROM A PARTICULAR TO A UNIVERSAL. WHICH IS DEAD WRONG LOGIC. THE POINT THAT WE WANT TO MAKE IS YES, JESUS WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE POOR. HE IS CONCERNED WITH HELPING THE MARGINALIZED, CONCERNED WITH HELPING PEOPLE IN PRISON. VERY MUCH SO. ON THE OTHER HAND, BOY, IF ANYONE HAS READ THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT, YOU CAN TELL HE WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT ADULTERY, ABOUT PREMARITAL SEXUAL ACTIVITY, VERY CONCERNED WITH MARITAL INFIDELITY, VERY CONCERNED -- I MEAN KILLING. IF JESUS KNEW WE WOULD BE KILLING MILLIONS OF BABIES THROUGH ABORTION. I CAN TELL YOU WHAT HE WOULD SAY RIGHT NOW. HE WOULD SAY, EVERYBODY STOP EVERYTHING. STOP THIS GENOCIDE. THAT'S WHAT HE WOULD SAY. HE WOULD SAY IT IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. IT'S JUST EVIL BEYOND BELIEF. TO JUSTIFY THIS AND RATIONALIZE IT AS IF IT WOULDN'T BE WRONG BEFORE GOD, AS IF IT WOULDN'T TEAR OUR COUNTRY AND OUR SOULS APART, AS IF IT WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO THE MOTHERS WHO HAVE THESE ABORTIONS, AS IF POST-ABORTION SYNDROME WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM, YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME. HE WOULD BE SAYING IT ON THE FRONT LINES AND HE DOES. THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT HAS ALL OF THESE DIMENSIONS THERE. THE SIX -- LET'S FACE IT. THE FIFTH AND SIXTH COMMANDMENT HAVE BEEN THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN TOPPLED, AS IT WERE, IN OUR CULTURE. THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT THROUGH ABORTION PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT SUICIDE AND OTHER OUTRAGES LIKE THAT AND WITH PETER SINGER AND HIS CREW SHOUTING THE RALLYING CALL FOR INFANTICIDE, AND THERE HE SITS IN HIS GRANDIOSE SEAT IN PRINCETON. THE THOUGHT FOR ME IS THAT HAS TOPPLED. THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT HAS BEEN ALL BUT BLOWN UP WITH TNT. THE POINT, OF COURSE, IS THAT IF WE DON'T GET BACK TO OUR SENSES -- THAT FIFTH AND SIXTH COMMANDMENT, THE REASON THEY ARE UP THERE IN THE PRESCRIPTIVE COMMANDMENTS STARTING WITH NUMBER FIVE AND SIX, THE FIRST TWO PRESCRIPTIVE COMMANDMENTS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT YOU SEE THAT JESUS MEANT IT BECAUSE THEY ARE SO IMPORTANT. SEX REALLY IS IMPORTANT. MARITAL FIDELITY IS REALLY IMPORTANT. IT IS NOT SOME VICTIMLESS CRIME. INSIDE OF OUR SOULS, IT MATTERS SO MUCH. IT IS SO POWERFUL. JUST LOOK AT HOW EASILY MANIPULATED WE ARE. ONCE WE ABUSE THE CREATOR'S WILL FOR SEXUALITY, THE CREATOR'S WILL FOR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY, THEN WE START TO THROW IT TO THE WINDS, NOTICE HOW SATAN GOT HIS HAND ON INTO OUR SOULS AND PULLS US RIGHT ALONG WITH IT. OF COURSE WE DON'T REALIZE IT UNTIL 20 YEARS LATER WHEN HE STARTS TO PULL THE RUG OUT FROM UNDER US AND PRESENT OUR OWN INFIDELITIES. >> WE ARE SEEING THAT IN OUR COUNTRY TODAY. THAT'S WHY HE WROTE THE BOOK. GIVE US A BLESSING. >> BOW YOUR HEADS AND PRAY FOR GOD'S BLESSING. AND MAY THE LORD OF ALL LOVE, THE LORD WHO HAS GIVEN US GOODNESS THROUGH HIS COMMANDMENTS, HAS PRESENTED US WITH A PICTURE OF GOODNESS FOR OUR CULTURE THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, MAY THE LORD WHO HAS GIVEN US THIS LAW, WHICH IS THE DELIGHT AND THE PROTECTION OF OUR HEARTS, SEND FORTH HIS SPIRIT INTO YOUR HEARTS SO THAT YOUR FAITH MAY FILL YOU WITH JOY IN THIS THANKSGIVING SEASON. THAT YOU MAY BE FILLED WITH GRATITUDE FOR EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN, INCLUDING HIS TEACHINGS AND HIS CHURCH AND ALL THAT YOU HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY GIVEN IN YOUR FAMILIES N THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH, FATHER SPITZER. ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU. HAVE A BLESSED THANKSGIVING. WE SHALL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. AND DON'T FORGET, EVERYTHING, FATHER SPITZER'S LATEST NEW BOOK AND ALL OF HIS BOOKS ARE AVAILABLE THROUGH EWTN'S RELIGIOUS CATALOGUE, OF COURSE, AND THIS WEEKEND, BOOKMARK "THE SPIDER WHO SAVED CHRISTMAS." IT IS A BEST SELLER. CATALOG. WE HAVE HOLY MASS ON THANKSGIVING DAY THURSDAY AT 11:00 A.M. EASTERN. ADVENT REFLECTIONS BEGINNING WITH ADVENT THIS SUNDAY AT 4:00 P.M. EASTERN. A TRADITION HERE ON EWTN. TAKING US INTO THE CHRISTMAS SEASON. AND DON'T FORGET, THIS IS FATHER SPITZER'S UNIVERSE. HAVE A BLESSED THANKSGIVING BUT MAKE SURE YOU MAKE YOUR WAY BACK NEXT WEEK AND WE'LL SEE YOU THEN. GOD BLESS. [MUSIC]
