♪ >> Doug: HELLO AND WELCOME TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" WHERE FAITH AND REASON INTERACT AND MANY TIMES COLLIDE WITH OTHER IDEAS. I'M DOUG KECK YOUR HOST COMING TO YOU FROM IRONDALE, ALABAMA WHERE MOTHER ANGELICA BEGAN IT ALL ON MOTHER ANGELICA WAY. AND TODAY'S TOPIC, MYSTICISM IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY. YOU CAN EMAIL US spitzersuniverse@ewtn.com AND IMPORTANTLY, POST YOUR QUESTIONS ON OUR FACEBOOK PAGE. YOU CAN SEE THE INFORMATION ON THE SCREEN. TWEET US AT TWITTER.COM. THE INFORMATION IS ON YOUR SCREEN. AND ALL THINGS THAT RELATE TO FATHER SPITZER CAN BE FOUND AT THE magiscenter.com THAT'S THE WEB SITE. AND DON'T FORGET, MOTHER ANGELICA HAS ANOTHER NEW BOOK OUT FROM HER MANY BOOKS, THE QUICK GUIDE TO THE SACRAMENTS. JUST OUT THROUGH OUR CATALOGUE! CHECK IT OUT. AND FATHER SPITZER HAS A NEW BOOK AVAILABLE, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARK, TRANSFORMING DARKNESS THROUGH FAITH. AND CHECK OUT FOR MORE BOOKS LATER IN JUNE FOR THE TOPICS WE DISCUSS IN THIS BOOK. AND WITH THAT BEING SAID, WE'LL TRANSITION OUT TO THE WEST COAST AND TALK TO FR. SPITZER TALKING ABOUT MYSTICISM IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AT OUR ORANGE COUNTY STUDIOS IN LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA. NOW, ONCE AGAIN, WE'VE CONNECTED WITH FATHER SPITZER. HOW ARE YOU DOING, FATHER? >> Father: I'M DOING GREAT, HOW ABOUT YOURSELF, DOUG. >> Doug: LOTS OF EXCITEMENT HERE IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. WE'RE DOING GOOD. OUR LADY OF FATIMA MAY 13 AND THAT WHOLE COVERAGE WITH THE POPE THERE, AND THE CRACKER JACK TEAM HERE AT EWTN WHO COVERED ALL OF THIS IN MULTIPLE LANGUAGES. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MYSTICISM AND A QUESTION OF SOMEBODY, LIKE, LUCIA OR THE SHEPHERD CHILDREN WOULD BE CONSIDERED MYSTICS, SEERS, AND WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT. NOW, HERE'S OUR FIRST QUESTION, THE PROGRAM WE DID ON CONTEMPLATION. >> ABOUT CONTEMPLATION, I UNDERSTAND THAT THE ROSARY IS TO BE CONSIDERED A CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER, ESPECIALLY SINCE WHILE RECITING IT, WE ARE TO REFLECT ON CHRIST'S LOVE FOR US. WOULD YOU PLEASE EXPAND ON HOW SUCH PRAYER IS NOT PUTTING OUR LADY AT THE LEVEL OF GOD, BUT RATHER MORE INTIMATELY LOVING GOD THROUGH HER? THAT'S THE QUESTION. AND OUR LADY WITH THE ROSARY FROM FATIMA AS WELL. >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. AND YOU MAY LOOK AT MARY AS THE SOON, AND HER SON JESUS AS THE SUN. OF COURSE, THE MOON IS ALWAYS REFLECTING THE LIGHT OF THE SUN. BASICALLY, SHE TAKES THAT INCREDIBLE LIGHT, THAT INCREDIBLE LOVE COMING FROM HER SON, THAT REDEMPTIVE LOVE AND SHE'S REFLECTING IT TO US THROUGH HER MOTHERLY WAY AND HER MOTHERLY SENSITIVITY, HER MOTHERLY PSYCHE AND IT COMES TO US THROUGH THAT WHOLE FORM, TRANSFORMED, AS IT WAS BY HER LOVE FOR HER SON AND HER LOVE FOR US, AT THE SAME TIME SHE REFLECTS HER SON'S LOVE. YES, IT'S A VERY, VERY CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER. AND YOU NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ELEVATING MARY TO THE LEVEL OF GOD. BECAUSE AS CATHOLICS, WE DO NOT TO THAT. WE SEE HER AND REFLECTING THE LOVE OF GOD. AND GOING BACK TO THE STATEMENT OF FULTON J. SHEEN, HE WAS ASKED BY A PROTESTANT FRIEND. HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY LOVE MARY AS MUCH AS YOU DO. AFTER ALL, YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE TAKING SOMETHING AWAY FROM JESUS AND THE FATHER. AND FULTON J. SHEEN SAID, IF I LOVE YOUR MOTHER, DOES THAT MEAN I LOVE YOU ANY LESS? SO FINALLY IT BECAME CLEAR TO THE FELLA. ABSOLUTELY NOT, LOVE DOESN'T HAVE THE ECONOMIC DIMENSIONS OF MONEY, YOU KNOW, ZERO SUM GAIN AND YOU GIVE LOVE TO THE MOTHER, IT TAKES SOMETHING AWAY FROM THE SON. IN POINT OF FACT, IT'S THE OPPOSITE DYNAMIC, LOVING A PERSON'S FRIENDS, MOTHER, AND IT'S GOING TO ENHANCE YOUR LOVE FOR THEM! AND ALSO, HER REFLECTION OF HER SON'S LOVE TO US HAS ALL OF HER QUALITIES EMBEDDED IN IT AS WELL. SO, IT IS A VERY CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER AND VERY MUCH MEANT TO REFLECT ON THE LOVE OF JESUS. AND OF COURSE, TRANSFORMED AND IMBUED WITH HER OWN SPECIAL MOTHERLY LOVE. >> Doug: INTERESTING TOO, BEFORE WE GO TO THE NEXT QUESTION. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT OUR LADY OF FATIMA AND THINKING OF THE MIRACLE OF THE SUN. BUT IN SOME WAYS, OUR LADY'S SON IS REALLY THE MIRACLE IN THE SENSE OF OUR FAITH, RIGHT? >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT, EXACTLY. INTERESTING IN ENGLISH THAT THE TWO WORDS SOUND THE SAME. BUT JESUS IS THE SON WHO IS THE SUN AND MARY THE MOON WHO REFLECTS IN A SPECIAL WAY THE SON'S LIGHT TO US. AND I THINK THAT HE IS CERTAINLY THE TRUE MIRACLE OF THE SUN OF FATIMA. >> Doug: AND OUR LADY'S SON AT THAT. AND GOD THE FATHER. AND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, I HAVE FELT A GREAT CLOSENESS TO GOD. THIS IS A NEXT QUESTION. I HAVE FELT A GREAT CLOSENESS TO GOD, JESUS, AND THE BLESSED MOTHER IN THE PAST. AFTER CHRONIC DEPRESSION, HOWEVER, IT SEEMS SO UNREAL, AS THOUGH I ONLY FOOLED MYSELF. DID I MAKE IT UP IN MY OWN SICK MIND? DID MY CLOSENESS REALLY HAPPEN? IF SO, HOW DO I GET IT BACK? THANK YOU, MICHELLE YOU KNOW, IT'S SO INTERESTING WE HEAR FROM PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT THAT. AND I KNOW THAT MOTHER ANGELICA, IT IS IN THE SUFFERING AND PAIN, THAT PEOPLE FEEL CLOSENESS TO GOD AND IT GOES AWAY, THEY FEEL NOT AS CLOSE AS WELL. >> Father: YES. I WOULD SAY TWO THINGS TO THE QUESTION. FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD NOT AT ALL DOUBT THAT THE CLOSENESS YOU FELT FROM OUR LORD AND FROM HIS MOTHER, BLESSED MOTHER, THAT SOMEHOW THAT CLOSENESS IS TO BE DOUBTED OR WAS MADE UP OR IMAGINED BY YOU. YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT BEING CLOSE TO THE LORD IN PRAYER IS THERE'S ALWAYS THAT DIMENSION OF ANOTHER BEING, OF A PRESENCE OF ANOTHER BEING, KIND OF EMPATHETICALLY PRESENCE. WHEN YOU ARE IN PRAYER AND IN REAL CLOSENESS TO GOD, IF SOMETHING IS JUST YOUR IMAGINATION, EVEN THOUGH YOUR IMAGINATION SOMETIMES CAN RUN AWAY WITH YOU, SOMETIMES, IT DOESN'T HAVE THAT SAME QUALITY. SO, I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY, DO NOT DOUBT AT ALL THE CLOSENESS YOU FELT TO THE LORD. REMEMBER THAT PRAYER I GAVE YOU FOR THE BEGINNING OF ALL CONTEMPLATION: LORD, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE. OR MOTHER MARY, I KNOW YOU ARE HERE. PRESENT WITH ME. I THANK YOU FOR YOUR LOVE. I KNOW THAT YOU LOVE ME AND I THANK YOU FOR YOUR LOVE. AS YOU ARE SAYING THAT, SOMETIMES AS YOU PROCEED TO YOUR HAIL MARYS OR TO YOUR OUR FATHER OR SOME OTHER CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER, YOU CAN NOTICE THAT YOU ALMOST SENSE INDEPENDENT AND EMPATHETIC PRESENCE WITH YOU. AND QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT THAN TRYING TO DRUM SOMETHING UP IN YOUR IMAGINATION. DON'T DOUBT IT FOR A SINGLE MOMENT. THOSE EXPERIENCES ARE VERY AUTHENTIC INDEED. AND WITH RESPECT TO DEPRESSION, HOW TO GET IT BACK AND SO FORTH, THERE ARE MANY SOLUTIONS TO DEPRESSION. AND SOME OF THEM OBVIOUSLY ARE MEDICALLY INDUCED AND PHARMACOLOGICAL IN NATURE. BUT SOMETIMES WHAT'S REQUIRED IS A RESTORATION OF BRAIN CHEMISTRY OR SOMETIMES A RESTORATION OF SOME HORMONAL IMBALANCES. AND THOSE THINGS CAN BE DONE BY A PSYCHIATRIST WHO CAN GIVE PILLS THAT ACTUALLY ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE. AND THE THOUGHT PEOPLE THINK, GEE, IF I TAKE ONE OF THOSE PILLS. ZOLOFT OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE, IF I TAKE ONE OF THOSE, I'M ACTUALLY GOING TO DRUG MYSELF INTO FEELING GOOD. YOUR SOUL, THE SPIRIT OF YOUR SOUL IS QUITE INDEPENDENT WITH YOUR BRAIN BUT UNIFIED WITH YOUR BRAIN. YOUR SOUL IS A DISTINCT ENTITY. THAT SOUL CAN EXPERIENCE THE PRESENCE OF GOD. THAT SOUL CAN BE IN A HAPPY DEMEANOR OF ITSELF AND IN ITSELF BUT SOMEHOW, WHEN IT'S UNIFIED IN THAT BRAIN, AND THAT BRAIN CHEMISTRY IS VERY ERRANT, SOMETHING IS OFF, YOU GET INTO A FOG WHERE THE BRAIN CHEMISTRY IS ACTUALLY FOGGING YOUR REAL SPIRITUAL PRESENCE TO GOD AND HIS PRESENCE TO YOU AND EVEN YOUR PRESENCE TO YOURSELF. SO, IT'S NOT SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE THE OPPOSITE VIEW, INSTEAD OF VIEWING SOMETHING THAT'S CHEMICAL AS MAKING, GIVING YOU A HAPPY PILL, WHAT IT'S DOING IS REMOVING THE FOG IN THE BRAIN THAT ENABLES YOUR TRUE SPIRITUAL DEMEANOR TO PROCEED FORWARD THROUGH YOUR BRAIN IN A MUCH MORE NATURAL WAY THAN A NON DEPRESSED PERSON HAS. AND THERE'S OTHER KINDS OF REMEDIES. >> AND THE THING I WANTED TO ASK YOU, SOMEBODY WROTE US, WE HAVE A RADIO NETWORK AS WELL AND SEVERAL PROGRAMS THAT DEAL WITH HELPING PEOPLE NOT ONLY SPIRITUALLY BUT IN THE REALM OF INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS, ET CETERA. AND THIS PERSON WAS CONCERNED MAYBE WE WERE GIVING TOO MUCH, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE AND NOT ENOUGH SPIRITUAL ADVICE. HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT? OR DO YOU BALANCE THAT? >> Father: THERE IS A BALANCE OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S THIS OLD EXPRESSION, GRACE BUILDS ON NATURE. NOW, OF COURSE, THERE HAS TO BE QUALIFICATIONS TO. ESSENTIALLY, THAT'S TRUE. THERE'S NATURAL DEMEANORS AND NATURAL ABILITIES. OF COURSE, THE BRAIN, REMEMBER, OUR SOUL IS UNIFIED TO A BRAIN IN THIS BODY. THAT'S WHY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU MIGHT SEE A CHILD WHO IS PSYCHOLOGICALLY CHALLENGED OR SOMETIMES IS MENTALLY CHALLENGED. AND YOU SAY TO YOURSELF, OH, WELL, THAT CHILD HAS A LOT OF MENTAL CHALLENGE. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEIR SPIRIT IS DOING OR THEIR SOUL IS DOING. I MEAN, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF, IN THEMSELVES. ALL YOU CAN SEE IS HOW THE BRAIN IS PROCESSING THAT. SO, FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES, RIGHT, WHEN THAT CHILD, YOU KNOW, LEAVES THAT BODY, THEIR SPIRITUAL DEMEANOR IS GOING TO BE COMPLETELY RESTORED. THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY FOG THAT'S GOING TO COME FROM SOME KIND OF DIFFICULTY, SOME BRAIN SYNAPSE DIFFICULTY, BIO CHEMICAL DIFFICULTY ET CETERA. SO, THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO IS KNOW THAT WE HAVE A GENUINELY SPIRITUAL DEMEANOR. OF COURSE, THAT MEANS, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE'RE UNIFIED TO A BRAIN, UNIFIED TO A BODY, WE GOT TO DEAL WITH NATURE. WE GOT TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE GIVEN BY GOD. SOME OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOING TO BE INGREDIENT TO US. WHAT'S GOING ON IN OUR BRAIN, OUR CHEMISTRY, OUR SPINAL COLUMN. THAT SHOULD BE DEALT WITH. ALSO, WE CAN HAVE MEMORIES THAT CAN JUST AS EASILY OBSCURE THINGS, RIGHT? TRAUMATIC MEMORIES, FOR EXAMPLE. THERE'S A WHOLE AREA OF PSYCHOLOGY THAT DEALS WITH THIS AND HELPS US TO MOVE BEYOND THESE TRAUMAS THAT CAN ABSOLUTELY BLUR OUR AWARENESS OF GOD OR EVEN OUR ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE WITH ONE ANOTHER AND WITH GOD. AND FURTHERMORE, THERE CAN EVEN BE PROBLEMS, LET'S SAY, WE'VE HAD A DIFFICULT CHILDHOOD, YOU KNOW, OR MAYBE WE WERE BEATEN OR ABUSED OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE. AND THESE THINGS ALSO CAN ALTER OUR BRAIN CHEMISTRY. SO, THERE'S A WHOLE VARIETY OF THINGS WHERE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE DEALT WITH NATURE FIRST. IN DEALING WITH NATURE, WE WANT TO BE SURE THAT THAT'S NOT FOGGING WHAT'S GOING ON SPIRITUALLY. BUT THE SPIRITUAL DOMAIN HAS ITS OWN PROPER DOUGH MAN AS WELL. SO, OF COURSE, IF WE'VE DEALT WITH NATURAL THINGS THEN WE CAN PROCEED TO THE SPIRITUAL DIAGNOSIS AND DEAL WITH THE STAGES OF MYSTICISM THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT IN TODAY'S PROGRAM. SO, IF YOU KIND OF LOOK AT IT, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS GIVING THAT LITTLE CHECK LIST OF DESOLATION, RIGHT, THAT CHECK LIST OF DESOLATION IS REALLY PREMISED ON, FIRST, TAKING CARE OF THE PROBLEMS, ARE YOU A PERSON OF THE FIRST WEEK, ARE YOU A PERSON OF THE SECOND WEEK. AND IF YOU ARE A PERSON OF THE PROBLEM OF THE FIRST WEEK, THEN HERE YOU GO. AND THEN IF YOU ARE IN THE SECOND WEEK, HERE YOU GO. AND WE WANT TO BE SURE WE DEAL WITH THE NATURAL ONES FIRST, THEN DEAL WITH THE SPIRITUAL ONES. ABSOLUTELY, THERE'S A BALANCE. GENERALLY, WE TRY TO TAKE THE NATURAL THINGS FIRST, PSYCHOLOGICAL THINGS FIRST, TRAUMATICALLY INDUCED THINGS FIRST AND THEN WE MOVE TO THE SPIRITUAL THINGS. THOSE NATURAL THINGS, WHETHER THEY ARE FROM OUR BEARING CHEMISTRY OR SOMETHING PSYCHOLOGICALLY INDUCED, THOSE THINGS CAN REALLY OBSCURE WHAT WE THINK OF AS SPIRITUAL REALITY. WHEN YOU HAVE A CLEAR FOCUS ON THE SPIRITUAL REALITY, THEN YOU CAN ASSESS IT. AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT WHEN WE'RE DEALING WITH THE MYSTICISM AND THE STAGES OF MYSTICISM DURING THIS PROGRAM. >> Doug: ALL RIGHT. I'M VERY WEAK AND WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK RIGHT NOW! THEN WE'LL BE BACK TALKING MORE ABOUT MYSTICISM. IN THE COMING WEEKS, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE PROGRAMS ON THAT, BASED ON THE LATEST BOOK. AGAIN, "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" IS WHERE YOU ARE AT! MUCH MORE AHEAD. TALKING ABOUT MYSTICISM IN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: THANK YOU FOR STAYING WITH US. AT THE HEART OF FATHER SPITZER WHO IS OUT ON THE WEST COAST. NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT MYSTICISM, WE HEAR ABOUT IT, AND IN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION. FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS MYSTICISM? IS THERE MYSTICISM OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC TRADITION? >> Father: YES, THE ANSWER IS YES. THERE IS MYSTICISM OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC TRADITION. WITHIN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION -- NORMALLY, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MYSTICISM, ONE IS TALKING ABOUT UNION WITH THE ABSOLUTE. RIGHT? SO, IN ANY RELIGION, IF THERE'S UNION WITH THE ABSOLUTE AND THAT UNION IS THE CAUSE OF A SENSE OF HOME, AND A SENSE OF UNITY WITH THE TOTALITY AND AN ESCAPE AS IT WERE FROM ANY FORM OF SELF ALIENATION BECAUSE ONE SURRENDERED TO THE ESCAPE FROM SELF ALIENATION BY SURRENDERING TO THE ABSOLUTE. THAT IS GENERALLY A TYPICAL TERM FOR MYSTICISM IN ALL RELIGIONS. NOW, THERE IS OF COURSE A BUDDHIST MYSTICAL, HINDU MYSTICAL TRADITION AND SO FORTH. SO, CERTAINLY THERE IS THAT. THE CHRISTIAN MYSTICAL TRADITION HAS THREE DISTINCT ELEMENTS TO IT. BY THE WAY, THERE'S A WONDERFUL BOOK ON THIS -- WELL, THERE'S SEVERAL BOOKS BY THE SAME AUTHOR. HER NAME IS EVELYN UNDERHILL. SHE'S KIND OF THE ARCHETYPAL FORCE OF NOT JUST MYSTICISM BUT CATHOLIC MYSTICISM EXPERT. I MEAN, THERE'S MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE WRITTEN SINCE HER TIME. BUT HER BOOK ON MYSTICISM IS STILL VIEWED AS SORT OF THE DEFINITIVE WORK. SHE WENT THROUGH SO MANY DIFFERENT MYSTICS, NOT JUST THE OBVIOUS GREAT ONES, SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS, ST. THERESE OF AVILA, BUT THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE CATHOLIC TRADITION. SHE'S GOT ABOUT FOUR VOLUMES AND THE ONE THAT'S JUST CALLED, MYSTICISM, AN INTRODUCTION TO THE MYSTICAL LIFE. THAT VOLUME ITSELF. I KNOW IT'S HUGE, THICK VOLUME BUT IT'S WELL, REALLY WORTH GOING THROUGH. IT'S A DIFFICULT BOOK IN A WAY. BUT SHE CHARACTERIZES THESE THREE FACTORS I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT. NUMBER ONE, ALWAYS A DIMENSION OF LOVE THAT IS EMBEDDED IN IT. ALL MYSTICAL TRADITIONS DON'T HAVE THAT DIMENSION OF INTERPERSONAL LOVE. IN SOME MYSTICAL TRADITIONS, IT'S LIKE, BEING ABSORBED IN OR LOSES IN THE ABSOLUTE. >> Doug: SOUNDS LIKE A FORCE. >> Father: YEAH. WELL, EXACTLY. >> Doug: LITTLE PANTHEISM. >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. AND ABSORPTION INTO THE ABSOLUTE IS NOT CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM. WE HAVE A PERSONAL VIEW OF MYSTICISM WHERE GOD IS, AS IT WERE, THE ABSOLUTE DOES NOT ABSORB US. GOD IS A PERSONAL SELF CONSCIOUSNESS AND IN OUR CASE, THREE PERSON SELF CONSCIOUSNESS, FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT. AND WE'RE RELAY IT TO GO THE INTERPERSONAL GODHEAD THAT WE'RE IN AS PERSONS. WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABSORBED, IMMOLATED OR DISAPPEAR, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE A NIRVANA OF NOTHINGNESS. WE'RE GOING TO MOVE IN A SURRENDER TO GOD. WHEN WE MOVE INTO A SURRENDER TO GOD, THE MORE WE FIND OURSELVES, THE MORE THAT SELF ALIENATION IS REMOVED. THAT'S A COMMON FACTOR IN ALL MYSTICISM. AND THE MORE THAT OCCURS, IN TURN, THE MORE, YOU KNOW, THE HEIGHT OF LOVE OCCURS, AND WHEN THE HEIGHT OF LOVE OCCURS, WE CALL IT ECSTASY. OF COURSE, THAT'S A LOVING ECSTASY. IT'S AN ECSTASY OF BEING AT HOME, AT HOME IN THE PERSON OF GOD. WHEN THAT OCCURS, IT'S NOT AN ECSTASY OF ABSORPTION, IT'S FROM INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WHERE SURRENDER TO GOD IS ACTUALLY ENHANCING MY PERSONHOOD INSTEAD OF BEING ABSORBED BY GOD AS MAKING MY PERSONHOOD DISAPPEAR. SO, THAT IS A FIRST CHARACTERISTIC WHICH IS VERY CLEAR WITHIN CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM. AND THE SECOND FACTOR IN CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM, THERE'S STAGES OF THE MYSTICAL LIFE. AND THE STAGES OF THE MYSTICAL LIFE ARE PURIFICATION FORMS. FIRST, THE SENSES, THEN PURIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT. NOW, THE PURIFICATION IS NOT TO, AS IT WERE, TO MAKE THE SELF DISAPPEAR. THE PURIFICATION IS TO MAKE THE EGOCENTRIC PARTS OF THE SELF DISAPPEAR SO THAT THE TRUE INTERPERSONAL AND LOVING SELF WILL BE AS IT WERE IN UNION WITH GOD, AND IN UNION WITH ALL OF THE BLESSED IN HEAVEN. SO, THE PURIFICATION IS NOT ORIENTED TOWARD ANY FORM OF SELF IMMOLATION OR ABSORPTION INTO THE DIVINE. IT IS IN FACT, THE PURE PURIFICATION OF THE EGOCENTRIC OR THE SENSORIAL PARTS OF MY BEING WHICH WOULD INTERFERE WITH MY ABILITY TO LOVE PERFECTLY, MY ABILITY TO SEE GOD TRANSPARENTLY IN HIS GOODNESS WITHOUT ANY OF THE OBFUSCATION THAT WOULD COME, ANY OF THE GLARE THAT WOULD COME FROM MY EGO. OF COURSE, I CAN EVEN SEE MYSELF IN MY OWN INHERENT LOVE ABILITY WITHOUT OBFUSCATION AND BE A TRUE AWARENESS OF ABILITY OF LOVE OF SELF. AND IN THAT PARTICULAR CONTEXT, HAVE YOU A PURE LOVE. THAT PURE LOVE MAKES TIME DISAPPEAR, BUT OF COURSE, BROUGHT TO ITS FULFILLMENT, IT'S ECSTATIC JOY AND COMES OUT OF ITSELF, COME OUT OF MY BEING, OUT OF MY SELFHOOD INTO THE OTHER. AND OF COURSE, I'M IN THE OTHER WITHOUT LOSING MYSELF. I'M IN THE OTHER WHICH GIVES MYSELF BACK TO MYSELF THROUGH THE PERFECT GOODNESS, LOVE, AND BEING OF GOD. THAT'S VERY CHRISTIAN. THE THIRD ELEMENT OF CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM IS THAT THE MYSTIC DOES NOT STAY IN THE MONASTERY AS IT WERE AND NEVER COME BACK TO THE WORLD. WE'VE SEEN IN A LOT OF MYSTICAL TRADITIONS, THERE'S A I'M GOING NOW, GOODBYE EVERY ONE, NOT COMING BACK. NOT CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM AS EVELYN UNDERHILL MAKES CLEAR, THE CHRISTIAN MYSTIC RETURNS TO THE WORLD. EITHER WITH A MESSAGE, OR WITH WRITING OR PREACHING TO HIS OR HER COMMUNITY, OR WITH REFORM OF HIS OR HER COMMUNITY, OR GOING BACK INTO THE WORLD AND TRYING TO TEACH WITHIN THE WORLD OR BRING A MESSAGE TO THE WORLD. THERE'S ALWAYS SOME KIND OF SERVICE, SOME KIND OF CARITAS THAT COMES FROM THE LOVE OF GOD, THE JOY THAT I GET FROM GOD. IT ALWAYS GETS MANIFEST OUTWARDLY. SO, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE VERY NORMAL. SO, YOU KNOW, IN THE LIVES OF, YOU KNOW, THE THREE MOST WELL KNOWN MYSTICS HAPPEN TO BE CARMELITE MYSTICS. THERE ARE MANY OTHER KIND OF MYSTICS AND OTHER KINDS OF MYSTICISM IN THE CHURCH BESIDES THE CARMELITES. AND SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS, ST. THERESE OF AVILA AND ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX AND THE CARMELITE TRADITION IS WELL KNOWN. AND TWO THINGS OF THE CARMELITE MYSTIC, SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS AND ST. THERESA OF AVILA BOTH REALLY GO THROUGH THE STAGES OF PURIFICATION VERY WELL. AND IN THE CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM, THOSE THREE STAGES, PURIFICATION, ILLUMINATION AND THEN UNITY OR UNIFICATION. AND IN THE PURIFICATION STAGE, STAGE 1, THAT DOESN'T MEAN A NOVICE. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU ARE JUST BEGINNING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE OR THE LIFE OF FAITH, RIGHT. BY THE TIME YOU GET TO THAT FIRST STAGE OF MYSTICISM, OF PURIFICATION, ONCE YOU ARE THERE, YOU ALREADY HAVE A FAITH LIFE AND YOU ALREADY HAVE TO DESIRE TO PURIFY YOURSELF. RIGHT? AND HAVE YOU TO, WHY DO YOU WANT TO PURIFY YOURSELF? YOU WANT TO DRAW CLOSER TO THE BELOVED JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS GOD THE FATHER. YOU ALREADY HAVE A VERY ACTIVE FAITH LIFE. YOU ALREADY HAVE A PARTIAL SURRENDER TO GOD WHERE YOU ARE WILLING TO MAKE A SACRIFICE. YOU ARE WILLING TO START PURSUING THIS LIFE. AND SO, YOU MOVE, THE FIRST STAGE OF THIS PURIFICATION IS CALLED THE DARK, THE ACTIVE NIGHT OF THE SENSES. IT'S ACTIVE DARK NIGHT AND PASSIVE DARK NIGHT. THE ACTIVE DARK NIGHT, WHAT THAT MEANS IS WE ARE GOING TO GO THROUGH A PURGATIVE PROCESS, RIGHT? WHAT PURGATIVE MEANS IS PURIFICATION. AND IN ACTIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES, WE WANT TO PURSUE PURGATION, WE WANT TO PURSUE A PURIFICATION AND MORTIFY THE SENSES. MORTIFY IS A WORD WE DON'T USE TOO MUCH. BUT IT JUST MEANS TO DISCIPLINE THE SENSES. SO YOU MIGHT START OFF WITH MORE PRAYER. AND YOU MIGHT START -- YOU ARE ACTIVELY DOING THAT SO THAT YOU WILL BE UNIFIED WITH THE BELOVED. YOU MAY SAY, I'M GOING TO DO SOME MORE FASTING. SOMETHING THAT I SHOULD PROBABLY DO MORE OF! AND THE IDEA TOO OF, YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO TRY AND FIND SOME OTHER WAYS OF SACRIFICING TO MY SENSES. SO, IN OUR CULTURE, RIGHT, OBVIOUSLY, JOHN OF THE CROSS AND THERESA OF AVILA DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH TELEVISION, CELL PHONES, INTERNET, SOCIAL MEDIA. BUT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS PURSUE AT SOME POINT DISCIPLINING YOURSELF SO YOU ARE JUST NOT HOOKED BY THE STIMULATION OF THE SENSES AT ALL TIMES. AND THE REASON YOU WANT TO DO IT IS SO THAT YOU CAN GO AND MOVE INTO THE INTERIOR LIFE. SO, OF COURSE, WHAT WE CALL THIS DISCIPLINING OF THE SENSES MEANS THAT I'M GOING TO TEMPER. YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE UP THE INTERNET. YOU JUST WANT TO DISCIPLINE YOURSELF SO THAT YOU ARE JUST NOT KIND OF HOOKED ON IT. YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO GIVE UP TELEVISION, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE'S GONZAGA BASKETBALL ON! >> Doug: OR EWTN, "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE"! >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. ABSOLUTELY. BUT YOU DO WANT TO DISCIPLINE YOURSELF IN SOME WAY INTENTIONALLY SO. AND OF COURSE, THE SAME THING WITH OTHER FORMS OF MEDIA, OTHER FORMS OF STIMULATION. AND OF COURSE, AS WE ALL KNOW, THERE ARE A MYRIAD OF FORMS OF SENSORIAL STIMULATION IN THIS CULTURE. BUT THE IDEA IS TO VOLUNTARILY DISCIPLINE MYSELF TO LIMIT THESE KINDS OF THINGS SO THAT I CAN FIND GOD SPEAKING TO MY SOUL, SPEAKING TO MY SPIRIT WITHIN. I INITIATE MY OWN DARK NIGHT. I DEPRIVE MYSELF. I DISCIPLINE MYSELF TO FIND MY SPIRIT. AND WHAT THEY MEAN BY SPIRIT IS NOT JUST DEFINING AN INTERNAL THING. THE SPIRIT FOR THE MYSTICS IS WHERE GOD COMMUNICATES WITH ME, IN MY INTERIOR LIFE. OF COURSE, I TO HAVE A SPIRIT. I DO HAVE A SOUL. IT'S EXACTLY THE PLACE WHERE THE LORD IS COMMUNICATING. AND THAT'S WHERE HE IS TO BE FOUND IN HIS LOVE. IN HIS JOY. >> Doug: WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS. STRIKES ME THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE MORTIFIED TO THINK THEY NEED TO BE PURIFIED BECAUSE NOBODY HAS THE NEED FOR ANY PURIFICATION. BUT WE HAVE THE SMARTEST VIEWERS ON THIS SHOW. THEY ARE WAY IN TOUCH WITH THIS AND AHEAD OF THINGS. NOW, LISTEN TO. >> A MYSTIC WRITER THAT YOU'VE REFERENCED NAMED EVELYN UNDERHILL WROTE, "WHERE THE PHILOSOPHER GUESSES AND ARGUES, THE MYSTIC LIVES AND LOOKS, AND SPEAKS, CONSEQUENTLY, THE DISCONCERTING LANGUAGE OF THE FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE? CAN YOU PLEASE EXPAND ON THIS THOUGHT OF HERS? GOD BLESS, HANNAH. >> Father: YEAH. HANNAH, WHAT SHE'S SAYING THERE IS, PHILOSOPHERS HAVE THE LUXURY IN SPEAKING IN ABSTRACT WORDS. AND WHAT THAT MEANS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET DOWN TO THE NITTY GRITTY INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, OR THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE WITH GOD. YOU KNOW, FIRSTHAND, IT'S REALLY COMPLICATED TO UNDERSTAND. AND IN FACT, I'M A PHILOSOPHER. I HAVE A Ph.D IN PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE AND METAPHYSICS. I'M A HAPPY CAMPER UP IN THE WORLD OF NEURO SPHERE AND I CAN ABSTRACT AWAY FROM ALL OF THE INCONVENIENCE OF LIFE. I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS. I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ALL OF THE IMPERFECTIONS IN MY BEING. DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS, RIGHT? AND THINK YOU KNOW THOSE SEVEN DEADLY SINS BUT JUST TO REPEAT THEM. THE IDEA OF GLUTTONY, DRUNKENNESS, SLOTH, LUST, GREED, ENVY, ANGER, PRIDE -- WHICH INCLUDES VANITY -- THESE THINGS ARE TOUGH. AND THEY ARE TOUGH LESSONS TO LEARN. AND IN THE SPIRITUAL LIFE, THAT FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE AND THAT JOURNEY OF SELF PURIFICATION, A PURIFICATION WITH GOD, THAT JOURNEY IS REALLY TOUGH TO TALK ABOUT. AND SO, WHAT EVELYN UNDERHILL IS SAYING, THIS IS HARD FOR ME TO DO THIS. I'M GOING TO DO IT AS BEST I CAN. THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF NUANCE HERE, A WHOLE LOT OF EMOTION HERE AND A LOT OF INTERPERSONAL FOGGINESS HERE AND A LOT OF PERSONAL AND INTERPERSONAL COMPLEXITY HERE WHICH THE PHILOSOPHERS CAN SIMPLY ABSTRACT OUT OF AND GO INTO THE WORLD OF SPACE AND TIME AND BEING AND ALL OF THE THINGS, OF COURSE, THAT I HAVE LOST MYSELF IN. AND ALL I HAVE TO DO IS WORRY ABOUT THE COMPLEXITY OF MATHEMATICS OR THE COMPLEXITY OF LOGICAL THOUGHT. BUT NONE OF THE THORNY, REALLY TOUGH ISSUES OF EMOTIONAL INTERPERSONAL FOG AND COMPLICATEDNESS AND MESSINESS OF LIFE. SO, THAT'S WHAT SHE'S TRYING TO SAY TO US. THAT'S REALLY TRUE. THE MYSTIC HAS TO MOVE THROUGH ALL THAT AND KIND OF SHOW YOU THE PATH. AND THERE'S SO MUCH MESSINESS AND COMPLEXITY ALONG THE WAY. BUT THEY DO A PRETTY GOOD JOB. THEY DO A GOOD JOB, THE CARMELITE MYSTICS DO A VERY GOOD JOB INDEED. >> Doug: NOW, YOU MENTIONED THE CARMELITES AND YOU SAID, THEY ARE NOT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NECESSARILY CLOISTERED OR, LIKE, IN OTHER TRADITIONS YET THE CARMELITES OBVIOUSLY HAVE AN ASPECT OF THAT. IS THERE A REASON WHY THE CARMELITES WOULD TEND TO BE THE MOST WELL KNOWN ASSOCIATED WITH MYSTICISM IN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION? >> Father: I REALLY THINK THREE REASONS WHY. YOU KNOW, THE FIRST REASON WHY IS BECAUSE THE WHOLE DISCALCED CARMELITE TRADITION, THOSE ARE THE SISTERS WHO KIND OF LIVE BEHIND THE SCREEN, ET CETERA. THE FIRST THING ABOUT THEM IS, THEY WERE INCLINED TO WRITE AND ACTUALLY, THEY WERE ADVISED BY THE SPIRITUAL DIRECTORS TO WRITE. AND SO, THAT WAS A HUGE ADVANTAGE. THE MINUTE OF COURSE THEY STARTED WRITING AND THESE BOOKS WERE BOUND TO BE PUBLISHED BECAUSE THEY ARE LIVING IN A POST PUBLICATION ERA. THE PRINTING PRESS IS OUT THERE, IT'S READY TO GO. AND OF COURSE, THAT'S A HUGE ADVANTAGE. BOTH THE INCLINATION TO WRITE AND THE FACT THAT THE PRINTING PRESS IS GOING STRONG. THE SECOND THING THAT IS REALLY THERE IS, THEY HAD THE TWO FOUNDERS, ST. THERESE OF AVILA AND SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS WERE NOT THE ONES WHO DISCOVERED THE PURGATIVE WAY, ILLUMINATIVE WAY AND THE UNITIVE WAY THAT I WAS JUST EXPLAINING. THIS GOES ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BENEDICTINE TRADITION. AND THIS GOES BACK TO EVEN ANTHONY OF THE DESERT, RIGHT? AND SAINT ANTHONY OF THE DESERT. THESE THINGS ARE JUST THERE. AND THEY HAD A WAY OF JUST, YOU KNOW, THIS MASTERY OF THE INTERIOR LIFE WHERE THEY WERE ABLE TO SET OUT ALL THESE LITTLE NUANCES AND SUB STAGES THAT REALLY DON'T COME OUT SO WELL, ARTICULATELY PRIOR TO THEM. YOU KNOW, THE THIRD THING THAT I THINK IS JUST SO GREAT THAT THEY ARE AWARE OF IS, THEY REALLY HAVE THAT CAPACITY, YOU KNOW, TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES POETICALLY, THEY CAN AVAIL THEMSELVES OF THE SCHOLASTIC TRADITION. SCHOLASTIC TRADITION MEANS ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, YOU KNOW, THAT PRECISE, CATEGORICAL ARTICULATION THAT COMES FROM THE MIDDLE AGES. THEY HAD THIS ABILITY TO, YOU KNOW, GET A LOT OF NUANCE ON IT. BUT IT'S NOT JUST THE NUANCE, IT WAS THE NON FEAR OF USING POETRY AND METAPHORS AND SYMBOLS IN A WAY THAT BLENDED WITH THAT SCHOLASTIC PHILOSOPHY AND LENT ITSELF TO A REALLY KEEN ARTICULATION OF THE TRADITION. SO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE JUST TO REVIEW. YOU GET IN THAT PURGATIVE WAY, ACTIVE DARKNESS OF THE SENSES AND PASSIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES. WHAT PASSIVE MEANS IS GOD'S DOING IT. I'M NOT AS THE PERSON ON THE JOURNEY. I'M NOT THE ONE INITIATING IT. GOD NOW IS GOING TO GIVE ME A DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES. HE'S GOING TO PUT ME SORT OF IN A LITTLE BIT OF AN ABYSS IN ORDER TO MAKE THE FINAL PURIFICATION OF THE SENSES HAPPEN. BUT MOST PEOPLE ON THE MYSTICAL JOURNEY. MOST CONTEMPLATIVES, THEY ARE AWARE THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN THAT AFTER THEY HAVE KIND OF DONE THEIR BEST IN THE ACTIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES. GOD IS GOING TO HAVE TO STEP IN AND HELP THEM OUT A BIT AND DEPRIVE THEM OF THE NORMAL KIND OF ENJOYMENTS THAT THEY WOULD GET FROM THEIR SENSORIAL DIMENSION OF THEIR LIFE. AND THERE'S GOING TO BE REAL DESOLATION THERE. AND THAT DESOLATION, CAUSED BY GOD, FOR THE SAKE OF PURIFICATION TO GET THE MYSTIC, THE CONTEMPLATIVE THROUGH THAT STAGE. AND ONCE THE CONTEMPLATIVE MOVES THROUGH THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES, HE MOVES INTO THE ILLUMINATIVE WAY. WHEN HE MOVES INTO THE ILLUMINATIVE WAY, THEN HE HAS TWO MORE PURE PURIFICATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO HAPPEN. AND AS YOU SUSPECT, ACTIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SPIRIT AND PASSIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SPIRIT. AND AGAIN, IN ACTIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SPIRIT, THAT'S SELF INITIATED. AND PASSIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SPIRITUAL, THAT AGAIN IS THE DESOLATION THAT'S KIND OF INITIATED BY GOD FOR THE FINAL PURIFICATION LEADING TO THE THIRD STAGE OF THE PURIFICATION. YOU CAN KIND OF UNDERSTAND THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES AND THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SPIRIT, JUST THINK OF THE FIRST THREE DEADLY SINS. THOSE ARE THE ONES CONCERNED WITH THE SENSES. SO, JUST SORT OF, EVEN THOUGH SLOTH IS ALSO SPIRITUAL, IT CAN ALSO BE SENSORIAL. AND GLUTTONY, LUST, THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY SENSORIAL. NOW, THERE CAN BE A LOT OF EGOCENTRICITY IN THE PURSUIT OF LUST AND SO FORTH. THEN, THE OTHER DEADLY SINS ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SPIRIT. GREED CAN OF OF COURSE HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE SENSES. BUT THEN AS YOU GET TO ENVY, RIGHT, IT'S MORE SPIRITUAL. THEN, AS YOU GET TO PRIDE, VANITY, AND ANGER, THAT'S MORE ON THE SPIRITUAL LEVEL. ASSOCIATION GOD IS GOING TO HELP US DEAL WITH THAT. AND WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT AS WELL. BUT THAT GETS US TO THE UNITIVE STAGE, THE ECSTASY, JOY, SURRENDER TO GOD IN LOVE WITHOUT ANYMORE EGO SORT OF OBFUSCATING THE WHOLE PROCESS. >> AND WE'LL TAKE A LOOK WHEN WE COME BACK. I'M STUCK ON SLOTH. BUT WE'LL BE BACK AFTER OUR BREAK. WE'RE LISTENING TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AND CATHOLIC MYSTICISM. I'M DOUG KECK AND WE HAVE MORE STRAIGHT AHEAD. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" CONTINUES TALKING ABOUT CATHOLIC MISTISM -- ABOUT MYSTICISM IN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION. NOW, WE'VE GOT ANOTHER EMAIL. IT SEEMS THAT SUFFERING, AS MANY MYSTICS HAVE EXPERIENCED, CAN MAKE US MORE AWARE OF THE SMALLER MIRACLES. PERHAPS THE INCREASED RECOGNITION OF THE SMALLER MIRACLES CAN MAKE SUFFERING SEEM MORE TRIVIAL, TOO, AS OUR LOVE AND TRUST INCREASES IN GOD. RAY, FROM NEW JERSEY. WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS? >> Father: WELL, RAY, YOU ARE SPOT ON. BECAUSE THAT'S ABSOLUTELY THE TRUTH. I THINK SOMETIMES WHEN WE SUFFER, WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE CAN REALLY SEE THE GOOD SIDE OF LIFE IF THAT SUFFERING DOES NOT BECOME DEBILITATING. AND I HAVE THIS LITTLE FORMULA THAT I USE. CERTAINLY, IT APPLIES TO A MYSTIC. SUFFERING PLUS FAITH IS GOING TO LEAD TO AN INCREASE IN LOVE, AN INCREASED RECOGNITION OF THE LOVABILITY OF OTHERS, AN INCREASED EMPATHY AND INCREASED SURRENDER TO GOD, INCREASED INDEPENDENCE ON GOD. AND OF COURSE, LEAD TO OUR SALVATION, AND TO OUR ABILITY TO HELP OTHERS TO BE SAVED AS WELL. THAT BOOK THAT DOUG TALKED ABOUT AT THE BEGINNING, CALLED THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS, THAT'S ALL ABOUT, CHAPTER 7 AND 8 ARE COMPLETELY DEVOTED TO THIS AREA OF SEEING ALL OF THE GOOD OPPORTUNITIES THAT COME FROM SUFFERING WITH FAITH. HOWEVER, SUFFERING WITHOUT FAITH, THAT CAN REALLY DEBILITATE US. AND IT CAN EMBITTER US AND MAKE US TURN IN ON OURSELVES. AND IN THAT SENSE, IT CAN BE VERY, VERY DEBILITATING INDEED AND WITH GOOD CHRISTIAN FAITH AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS EPISODES HOW TO SUFFER WELL. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MARKER. NOW, THE MYSTICS, OF COURSE, REMEMBER WHAT I SAID. YOU DON'T GO INTO PURGATIVE WAY, THAT STAGE OF PURIFICATION WITHOUT FAITH. ABSOLUTELY YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH. YOU ALREADY HAVE AN ACTIVE FAITH LIFE. SO, THIS PERSON IS PURSUING GOD. HE'S PURSUING A DEEPER RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS AND IN SO DOING, THAT PERSON IS GOING TO GET ALL OF THE BENEFITS FROM SUFFERING. AN INCREASED SENSE OF GRATITUDE COMING FROM THEIR SUFFERING AND INCREASED AWARENESS OF WHAT YOU CALL THE LITTLE MIRACLES OF LIFE. AND IN TURN, THOSE LITTLE MIRACLES OF LIFE ARE GOING TO DEEPEN HIS FAITH. THE MORE YOU SEE GOD'S PROVIDENTIAL ACTION IN THE LITTLEST MIRACLES OF OUR LIVES AND IN OUR LITTLE MIRACLES OF HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS. AND THE LITTLE MIRACLES OF BEING PROTECTED AND INSPIRED, MORE YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE IN THE BLESSED COMPANY AND PROTECTION AND INSPIRATION OF GOD THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND THE MORE YOU ARE, YOUR LOVE AND FAITH FOR HIM, IN HIM IS GOING TO GROW. SO, RAY YOU ARE SPOT ON. AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT TOPIC A WHOLE LOT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THAT BOOK ON SUFFERING IN LATER EPISODES. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. AND WE HOPE RAY STAYS WITH US. HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION. FATHER, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT EXPERIENCING THE CATHOLIC FAITH AS WE DO THROUGH TANGIBLE AND OUTWARD SACRAMENTS IN MANY WAYS UNCOVERS THE MYSTERY OF WHO GOD TRULY IS. MYSTICISM IS GREAT, AS GOD WANTS US TO BE IN AWE OF HIM. AT THE SAME TIME, GOD WANTS US TO TRULY KNOW HIM, AS WELL. YOUR THOUGHTS? >> Father: YES, THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS YES, ALL OF THE ABOVE. THE SACRAMENTS ARE VERY NECESSARY INDEED. GOD DOES WANT US TO KNOW HIM. AND THAT MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL, TO KNOW HIM INTELLECTUALLY, RIGHT? TO SORT OF HAVE OUR MIND RIGHT, IF I MIGHT BORROW THAT GREAT EXPRESSION FROM COOL HAND LUKE AND HE ALSO WANTS US TO HAVE OUR HEARTS RIGHT. RIGHT? SO, HE WANTS US TO BE ABLE TO SEE HIM THROUGH A HEART THAT'S NOT OBFUSCATED BY A LOT OF EGO. AND HE WANTS ALL OF THE ABOVE. HE WANTS MIND KNOWLEDGE, HE WANTS HEART KNOWLEDGE, ABSOLUTELY THE SACRAMENTS ARE GOING TO BE NECESSARY. THESE ARE KIND OF INFUSIONS OF GRACE THAT CAN LEAD US TO TRANSFORMATION IN THE HEART OF GOD. SOMETIMES WE DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE THAT. THE POWER OF THE SACRAMENTS, I MEAN, I HAVE A MILLION STORIES TO TELL ABOUT IT. AND I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO ALL OF THEM RIGHT NOW BUT I DO HAVE A MILLION STORIES TO TELL. I'LL JUST TELL YOU ONE STORY. WHEN I WAS, IN MY EARLY COLLEGIATE YEARS, YOU KNOW, STARTED GOING TO DAILY MASS AND RECEIVING THE HOLY EUCHARIST EVERYDAY. MY FRIENDS, AFTER ABOUT 2/3 OF A YEAR STARTED COMING UP TO ME AND SAYING, SPENCER, YOU ARE CHANGING AND I WOULD SAY, NO, I'M NOT CHANGING. AND THEY SAY, NO, NO, ACTUALLY, YOU ARE MUCH NICER THAN YOUR FORMER BRUTAL, UTILITARIAN CALLOUS SELF. AND I SAY, NO I THINK I AM MY SAME BRUTAL, UTILITARIAN AND CALLOUS SELF. AND THEY SAY, NO, NO YOU ARE CHANGING. BUT I SURPRISED MYSELF. I BELIEVE I WAS TRANSFORMED IN THE HEART OF CHRIST. CERTAINLY BY THE GOSPEL TOO. MOSTLY BY THE EUCHARIST I WAS RECEIVING. AND I WAS KIND OF THE LAST GUY TO FIND OUT. THE POWER OF THE SACRAMENTS CANNOT BE UNDERESTIMATED. THE POWER OF FLAMING DESIRE WITHIN YOU THROUGH THE SACRAMENTS CANNOT BE UNDERESTIMATED. AND ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE BUILD UPS TO THE MYSTICAL LIFE. RIGHT? BECAUSE OF COURSE HAVING THAT ACTIVE LIFE OF THE SACRAMENTS, THAT'S, BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN GET TO THE PURGATIVE WAY, THE FIRST STAGE, BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN GET TO THE ACTIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES, YOU GOT TO HAVE THIS LIVELY FAITH. LIKE, WHERE'S THAT GOING TO COME FROM? THE SACRAMENTS WHICH ARE INFLAMING YOUR DESIRE FOR GOD, INFLAMING YOUR DESIRE TO BE IN CLOSER UNION WITH HIM. INFLAMING YOUR DESIRE FOR CONVERSION, TO GET YOUR EGO OUT OF THE WAY SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE HIM, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, SEEING THROUGH THE HEART. AND SEEING HIM WITH EVER GREATER CLARITY AND LOVE HIM WITH EVER, MORE INTENSITY, RIGHT? ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO PRESUME THE SACRAMENTS. THEY ARE GOING TO PRESUME A MENTAL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. THEY ARE GOING TO PRESUME A HEARTFELT KNOWLEDGE, AWARENESS AND LOVE OF GOD. THEN, THEN YOU CAN GO ON TO THE PURGATIVE WAY. THEN, YOU CAN BEGIN TO INITIATE YOUR ACTIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES. THEN YOU CAN SUBMIT TO THE PASSIVE DARK NIGHT OF THE SENSES. AND YOU CAN BE WITH IT REMAINING TRUSTING IN GOD AS YOU MOVE THROUGH THAT AS IT PURIFIES YOU. OF COURSE, SO YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MARKER. I MEAN, WE DO NEED ALL OF THOSE THINGS. AND THEN, IF YOU WANT TO PURSUE THE CONTEMPLATIVE PATH OF THE PURGATIVE WAY, ILLUMINATIVE WAY AND THE PURGATIVE WAY, YES, YOU ARE READY TO GO. BUT YOU NEED EVERY SINGLE THING THAT YOU MENTIONED. >> Doug: AND BEFORE WE GO, I WANT TO GET ONE MORE LIGHTNING ROUND QUESTION IN THERE WITH YOU. NOW, THIS IS INTERESTING BECAUSE THIS IS ALWAYS VERY POSITIVE BUT THE OTHER PART SEEMS LIKE YOU GOT TO GO THROUGH SOME TOUGH STUFF SOMETIMES? >> Father: OH, YEAH, NO QUESTION BIT. AND THINK I MIGHT HAVE, DOUG THANKS FOR THAT CLARIFICATION. THE PURGATIVE WAY IS NOT A SHEER MISERY, EVERYBODY. I MEAN, IF YOU READ SAINT JOHN OF THE CROSS, SPIRITUAL CANTICLE, FOR EXAMPLE, OR IF YOU READ THE ASCENT OF MOUNT CARMEL, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF JOYFUL DIMENSIONS TO IT. I MEAN, I SORT OF ACCENTUATED THE DARK NIGHT. I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT. AND THEY ARE PUNCTUATED WITH THIS KIND OF UNITY FOR GOD, THIS JOY WE GET, THIS SENSE OF GOD'S PRESENCE TO US. WHAT C.S. LEWIS SAYS, STABS OF JOY. THERESA OF AVILA, SHE CALLED THEM MOMENTS OF ECSTASY. ABSOLUTELY. THIS IS IN THE PURGATIVE WAY AND EVEN DEEPER AND MORE ECSTATIC AND MORE PROFOUND IN THE ILLUMINATIVE WAY AND IT REACHES PURE UNMITIGATED AND UNPUNCTUATED STATE IN THE WAY THERE. AND I MAY HAVE MISLED THAT. BUT THAT'S A VERY, VERY GOOD QUESTION. NOW, GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, LISTENER, YES, WHEN YOU SENSE THAT ALMOST RELEASE OF SELF ALIENATION AND YOU SENSE THAT HARMONY AND AWE THAT COMES FROM A GLORIOUS BRAHMS SYMPHONY OR A BEAUTIFUL CHURCH WHERE YOU ARE ADMIRING THE ARCHITECTURE OR JUST LOOKING AT A SUNSET AMIDST A BEAUTIFUL GLORIOUS OCEAN OR MOUNTAINS, AND SO FORTH, BUT THE THING THAT'S HAPPENING TO YOU, THE TRANSFORMATION, THE BEING TAKEN OUT OF YOURSELF, THE ECSTASY OF BEING TAKEN OUT OF YOUR BEING THAT'S HAPPENING TO YOU THAT'S MAKING YOU GET YOUR EGO OUT OF THE WAY. IT KIND OF LOSES YOU IN THE HARMONY OF THE BEAUTY OF THE THING, THERE'S SOME REAL SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THAT AND THE FEELINGS OF JOY THAT COME WHEN YOU ARE IN A MYSTICAL STATE. HOWEVER, IN A MYSTICAL STATE, YOU HAVE THREE ADDITIONAL THINGS IN ADDITION TO THAT BEAUTY AND THAT HARMONY, THE ECSTASY THAT COMES FROM BEAUTY AND HARMONY. YOU ALSO GET THAT ADDITIONAL PART OF HOLINESS AND SACREDNESS. YOU GET ANOTHER THING OF JUST BEING AT HOME IN THE TOTALITY, IN THE ABSOLUTE, IN GOD, AND THE LOVE THAT WE TALKED ABOUT THAT'S INTRINSIC TO CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM. SO THERE'S A SIMILARITY OF THE ECSTASY OF BEAUTY IT IS CONTEMPLATIVE IN THE ECSTASY OF HOME, LOVE AND -- >> Doug: WELL, ONE THING, THERE'S ALWAYS A HOWEVER IN THE MIDST OF THESE THINGS. I JUST WANTED TO MENTION YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK, LIGHT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS, TRANSFORMING SUFFERING THROUGH FAITH AND WE'RE GOING TO DO A WHOLE SERIES NEXT MONTH, COMING UP IN JUNE. AND DON'T FORGET ABOUT FATHER SPITZER WEB SITE, magiscenter.com. AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TALKING ABOUT THE SUBTLE TOO MUCH TO GET IN IN JUST ONE SHOW. AND DON'T FORGET MOTHER ANGELICA'S BOOK, AND GO TO ewtnRC.com AND ALL THINGS CATHOLIC CAN BE FOUND THERE. THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, I'M DOUG KECK AND FOR VOYAGING WITH US THROUGH "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME, RIGHT HERE. ♪
